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Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:08 pm

Thanks for the reply re: Manny Acta. It really isn't his fault.

A small-to-mid-revenue market MLBB team's core has to come from it's own minor league system. Then, if you get close, you add a couple final pieces via free agency or trades to hopefully get you over the top.

Seriously, guys: who's ultimately responsible for hiring farm and scouting directors? Scouts? Major and minor league managers and coaches....development people???? Ahhhhhh.......isn't it obvious?

They've changed managers, coaches, and players over and over again, and this junk continues year after year after year with 1 half-way decent year (2007)..and that team had the Red Sox down, what: 3 games to 1, before the Indians faded?

It's been 12 years with basically the same key decision-makers at the top. Not to be mean, but...it's not like they haven't been given a fair chance.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby indians1 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:20 am

I would agree. I think there has to be complete changes in how this organization is run.

I really like mark shapiro as a person. He seems like a really good guy that cares about people and wants to win. That being said, how in 12 years do we not have a pitcher to come through the farm system that was drafted and becomes an impact pitcher?

You can say that about the position players as well until jason kipnis arrived and he has to prove he isn't a 1 hit wonder.

Their plan is failing and it is time for change. Either Dolan has to fire these guys or he has to sell the team to someone that will. shapiro and antonetti have made dolan look bad because no impact players are really coming through the draft. Then these guys go out and sign the duncun's, damon's , and cunninghams of the world who suck and people call dolan cheap.

He isn't cheap. he just doesn't know who to trust with evaluating and developing the talent.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:45 am

Indians1, Dolan / Shapiro's overall track record is poor.

If one researches the Indians ownerships since 1949, going all the way back to when Hank Greenberg built the farm system into a powerful player producing machine it is obvious to see the only two times since 1949 the Indians ownership got it correct ... Veeck / Greenberg and Jacobs /Peters-Hart. The rest of the groups were under capitalized and led by owners who were not capable.

What the Indians lack now is good quality baseball people who attract and hire the right scouts, the right number of scouts and know talent themselves. The farm system is currently in shambles. We are in BIG trouble as far as being able to compete.

Shapiro played college football. Shapiro is a nice person, ditto Antonetti, but what I do criticize them for is trying to do a job without the right tools and not being qualified baseball people.

Hey every GM makes a few good trades, but the lifeblood of any team is their farm system. Ours stinks. What has happened here is going all the way back to when Baseball America first was published, there is so much hype about minor league players that is planted for writers by the teams to get ink and increase visibility at the expense of actually knowing who the good players really are. Today communications is instant and all driven by advertising or back end products and services. A good number of the writers just write what they are told and so it just mushrooms into a big atomic bomb cloud of pure garble. The best way to judge young talent, get about 10-12 of the top scouts in all of baseball to give you their opinions on players, throw out what the Indians say. Finding out how other organizations value our players is the real key. They Indians are trying to sell hope. The Keith Law's of the world are trying to sell advertising to pay themselves so they all tend to be sensationalists. For example, what are Keith Law's credentials, ditto Terry Pluto. Terry never played the game, if he did, he sure wasn't very good at it. Why listen to Law and Pluto, they might only be half right at best.

What is the sense of having a Top 10 prospect list if none of them or not enough of them produce at the ML level. Pure marketing to sell tickets and hope. MLB is about winning at Progressive Field, it is the only thing that matters. Hell if our farm system would have produced just ONE player per year who contributed at the ML over the past 12 years we would have had 12 home grown prospects. Who would have cared if ALL the others failed and we didn't win a single minor league championship? One player out of 80 per year, just one. Good baseball people do that ... we didn't.

Bottom line ... we have an owner who doesn't know how to create a good business model and how to hire the right kind of baseball people. He's an attorney for God's sake and not a very good business man. Plus, he was handed a MLB baseball team, a silver spoon in his mouth. He never built any businesses. Baseball is a business. The people in charge now were put in their positions by Dolan, who lacks himself, and the results are dismal and WILL continue to be. They are not keen baseball evaluators of players / scouts.

Best thing that could happen to the Indians is for Dolan to sell the team to a group of people put together by a guy LIKE John Hart who would come in and be in charge of ALL baseball operations with the emphasis on rebuilding the team from the farm system up. It will take 3-5 years to see the results we all want.

It is the ONLY formula that has worked for the Indians since 1949. It is the solution. Smart business owner who hires exceptional baseball people like Greenbert, Peters / Hart.

Best thing to happen will be to have the fans stay away and advertisers spend their dollars on the other professional sports products in Cleveland, it will accelerate the process. The Indians will be a great opportunity for the RIGHT ownership group and will have real leverage when it comes to buying the team. Dolan's spent $332 million for the Indians well they might be forced to take a loss. So what, they brought it on themselves. If they don't sell they will continue to erode the value of the team because they won't have support. If they are not for sale, they soon will be.

The fans should force Dolan to sell if the team is not already for sale. We the fans have not failed the Dolan's, they have failed us.

I'll be starting a new thread regarding the different ownerships we've had since 1949 and be making comparisions regarding similar situations the different ownership / team encountered and how we got back to winning with Dick Jacobs. It took 35 years to do it. The 2012 Indians are in REAL trouble that is a given and new, the right ownership team is needed.

Again, there is a real story behind all this for the writer who has the balls to write it. Sooner or later reality must take over the situation and it finally has ... last in attendance and KC will probably finish ahead of us, plus a barren farm system.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:36 am

So you're saying that when our farm system ranked highly by the likes of BA and Keith Law, it was because they were trying to sell their product and the Indians fed them the story?

This is truly getting ridiculous.

I've felt for a while now that this site was running the risk of getting some cle.com characteristics. Looks like it's starting to show now.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:27 am

As long as the Dolan's are satisfied with the Indians as a business...you won't see significant changes.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby indiansfan055 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:29 pm

While our lineup struggles have been well documented, this team will never compete without good pitching. Sadly, I don't see any guys in the minor leagues who are ready for a rotation spot next year and we will never be players on the free agent market. We could trade for a pretty good one using some prospects, but we need more than one.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby BrianM » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:36 pm

Ive always enjoyed reading Terry Pluto's Sunday column. Here's an interesting tidbit...

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... um=twitter

1. This could have been the summer owned by the Indians. After July 1, the Tribe played 16 home games. They had three crowds above 30,000, four more above 25,000 and only two under 20,000. This is not the old days of a sellout every night, but they were averaging nearly 26,000 in their last 16 games. They were 8-8 at home, and playing close to .500 overall.

indiansfan055 wrote:While our lineup struggles have been well documented, this team will never compete without good pitching. Sadly, I don't see any guys in the minor leagues who are ready for a rotation spot next year and we will never be players on the free agent market. We could trade for a pretty good one using some prospects, but we need more than one.


I agree that pitching wins games, and we don't have any minor leaguers quite ready to step in and fill the void, but we have done a decent job finding pitching through free agency in the past. There are always Millwood's and Paul Byrds available in free agency. We will never land a front end starter, but there always seems to be players either coming off an injury or just getting up there in age that are willing to sign 1 or 2 year deals. A couple names to look into will be Joe Blanton, Kevin Correia, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Brandon McCarthy, and Joe Saunders. These are all guys who have been effective at some point during their career and are realistic options to sign a deal in Cleveland. Shaun Marcum, Kyle Lohse, and Colby Lewis are also possible targets, but will be much more expensive and will likely sign with surefire contenders. There is also a chance Atlanta declines Tim Hudson's option, so I'll add him to the list as well.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:50 pm

Not sure if I understand Acta's lineup today. None of the 3rd base options have a career hit vs Scherzer & Santana has a 1 for 18 line. Duncan & Kotchman both have had some success vs Scherzer so it would have made sense to let one of them play but instead both are on the bench.

Getting the sense that Acta needs to go (I was more pro then against him coming into the year). Not positive if Sandy Alomar jr should get the job. Really think Mike Sarbaugh needs serious consideration if the job opens up.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:15 pm

Without making dramatic and risky trades to fill the Indians 4 biggest holes, any hopes for a truly competitive 2013 seems like pipe dreams to me.

At this point, it appears even casual fans realize going to see a marginal team isn't that appealing to them. So, more of the same might not fly at the gate in 2013. You can only have so many fireworks and promotional events. Sooner or later you've got to put at least a competitive team on the field.

Trade Choo and Chris Perez in the off-season, and use free agency if you can. Find a way to acquire two, quality starting pitchers (at least #3's or #2's)...and 2 preferably right-handed-hitting power-hitting corner position players.

That's risky, for sure. And, it's a tough challenge...but, other than a total rebuild...what other options do they have? Unless I'm missing something, none that I see.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:54 pm

Can we believe in Houdini type miracles? Wow!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:19 pm

I get the feeling we could see a "retool" rather than rebuild. This team doesn't need a complete melt down, but it does need restructured. CA has had 1 offseason ( a horrible one at that), while he worked as Shapiro's right hand man prior. That's not saying much... I like CA's guts, at least he was brash enough to get Ubaldo, big risk. But where have the other moves been to coincide? I don't blame CA for the lack of talent, although he stripped the team of the top 2 pitching prospects at one swoop. And then to consider moving Masterson for a young starter? Truly, CA has been handicapped by poor drafts, poor personnel moves by Shapiro of which CA was at least involved. Simply put to point fingers and to lay blame...it comes down to poor ownership.

If the Dolans truly ran the Tribe as a business, they would realize you must spend money to make money.

I sounded off for the Tribe to make moves for now talent. There is simply gapping holes throughout the roster and to fill those holes won't come easy or cheap. Players like Choo, CPerez, RPerez and Marson get dealt in the offseason.
Last edited by homerawayfromhome on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Tondo » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:20 pm

Well, that's it for me this season...I'll rather watch Browns TC clips from now on

3 run lead, 2 outs, nobody on....how the hell do you lose this game?

At least Zeke's hitting...good thing we let his bat on fire for over 2 months in Columbus....bring up Fedroff and Goedert and I might tune in in 1 of those 50 something games left
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:24 pm

Tondo wrote:Well, that's it for me this season...I'll rather watch Browns TC clips from now on

3 run lead, 2 outs, nobody on....how the hell do you lose this game?

At least Zeke's hitting...good thing we let his bat on fire for over 2 months in Columbus....bring up Fedroff and Goedert and I might tune in in 1 of those 50 something games left


Only 3 blown saves - but oh - they were big ones. Opening day - last day before AS break - and to end an 8 game losing streak. CP is a very tradeable commodity.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:24 pm

No Jp Frost it is not ridiculous it's reality.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:50 pm

Again, guys: over the past 12 years (since the John Hart/Indians era ended)....the Indians have had different major and minor league managers and coaches, scouts, scouting directors, farm directors, and hundreds of players have come and gone...yet the on-field results have been so-so at best.

The only constant has been Mark Shaprio....the guy ultimately responsible for hiring and firing the major and minor league managers and coaches, scouts, scouting directors, farm directors, and players.

Ahhhh: DUH!!!!!!

We as fans consider success of our team in wins/losses and championships. Owners look at the bottom line. Hey, I'm sure the Dolan's would LOVE it if the Tribe was a winning team...but, trust me: the bottom line is their first and foremost concern.

Thank heavens for Dan Gilbert and the new Browns owner. I've never been a big Browns fan....but, that might change.

Nobody begrudes the Dolan's making money. Good for them. But, please, guys: have some passion about your own business: the Indians. Give us something to cheer about besides fireworks and dollar-dogs.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:16 am

Found this post at Cleveland Plain Dealer ...

Hey Geronimo, Hermie, Frost kinda sounds like what I've been posting the past 5 years, arguing with you rubes.

"I'm an Indians fan to the day I die and with my health and age I more than likely will not see a World Series champion.
I support the players 100% and will always remain a fan. I understand the manager and coaches situation and can sympathize for them. They have to work with the talent they have.

When it comes to the front office they may be trying hard to improve the team and their hands may be tied financially but that does not excuse their horrible draft history or some terrible trades where we received quantity and not quality. The front office is far below par in evaluation of talent. They must go.

When it comes to the owner, he should sell the franchise. Since he came into the picture this franchise has gone straight down hill because he is not driven to win and [b]he tolerates mediocrity.[/b]

This poster nailed it.

P.S. Prosecutor, Steve Goldman, Chuck Murr or Terry Pluto, there's a real story below all the hype and B.S. Who's got the balls to write it???
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:38 am

So because someone says something similar to you on the Plain Dealer site, that proves you are right?

It proves that you think the same as those simple minded baboons who post there. Go to the indians.com forums, you will find even more kinship.

This is what I meant with my earlier post. We now have a number of forum members who post every knee jerk reaction, have a child's understanding of player evaluation and go into "FIRE CHEAPIRO!!!" rants. Compare that to the discussions on LGT, and the difference is night and day.

It's too bad really, but it's going down hill.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:28 am

You can find postings like that every day in the Plain Dull, Akron Beacon Urinal and News Charade... The panacea that is being proffered is uniquely for the simple minded to contemplate.. Fire the __________________ !!!!!!! ( <=== fill in the blank with whomever you consider to be the latest 'causal' offender.. Mr. Dolan, Mark Shapiro, Chris Antonetti, Manny Acta, Ubaldo, ad infinitum..) because that's going to solve all the problems..

HELLO?????

Chris Perez blowing a save wasn't because Mr Dolan wanted to lose money. In 27 out of 29 chances, Chris Perez goes to the hill and finishes off the Tigers, but not yesterday.. Manny Acta put CP in the position to achieve success.... Ezequiel Carrera didn't lose a ball in the sun because Chris Antonneti traded for two players of moderate/average ability instead of an impact player.. Mark Shapiro didn't sign Travis Hafner/Grady SIzemore/Jake Westbrook to multi-year extensions with the hope they'd suffer career altering injuries... Manny Acta didn't tell his troops to go on a 9 game losing streak against the Indians' AL Central opponents so that Dollar Dog night & fireworks were better reasons for people to pay to see the Indians play.. Ubaldo didn't offer up gopher balls so that fans in the stands could get a free baseball courtesy of Mr Dolan..

The Indians failed on the field.. the Tigers succeeded. Simply put, that's the way baseball is.. Laying blame is a convenient form of cowardice for those not able to understand the game..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:31 am

Matt McBride (the only part of the Ubaldo Jimenez trade that is actually succeeding for either side) was called up from Colorado Springs by the Rockies.. He went 3 for 6 in his professional debut.. He's had an incredible season at AAA and, in his first opportunity, was able find the same success at the ML level

Congrats to Matt !...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:59 pm

Tondo wrote:Well, that's it for me this season...I'll rather watch Browns TC clips from now on

3 run lead, 2 outs, nobody on....how the hell do you lose this game?

At least Zeke's hitting...good thing we let his bat on fire for over 2 months in Columbus....bring up Fedroff and Goedert and I might tune in in 1 of those 50 something games left


And people wonder why players don't want to come to Cleveland....

One incredibly terrible series and "fans" apparently are done with the team for the year....wow...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:32 pm

Geronimo keep trying with that simple mind of yours. Eventually, after everyone else has, you'll get it. Someone has to be last, I guess.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:41 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Matt McBride (the only part of the Ubaldo Jimenez trade that is actually succeeding for either side) was called up from Colorado Springs by the Rockies.. He went 3 for 6 in his professional debut.. He's had an incredible season at AAA and, in his first opportunity, was able find the same success at the ML level

Congrats to Matt !...


Congrats to him indeed. Amazing that he came so far after being essentially written off. I know he's just getting a shot because Helton/Cuddyer/Giambi are all simultaneously injured, but it's still nice. Talk about a snakebitten team... the Rockies' luck this year has been atrocious.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:59 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Seriously no more god damn Damon - I have had enough!!! And Lopez with his OBP hovering around .250 - how is that acceptable!!!!!!


I really hope the Tribe does not just DFA/cut Damon here. From May 30th thru July 31st he nearly outhit Asdrubal Cabrera (OPS was .001 lower). He makes virtually nothing (owed less than $1M). He's a guy that a team could look to grab here in August. Thome is on the DL in Baltimore (Lew Ford is now starting for them). TB could look to grab him (Damon was very big for them in September last year). While I''d like to see some young guys get some ABs too, think you can get something out of Damon. Maybe it's only a Pavno or Byrd like return (Yohan Pino or Mickey Hall)....or maybe it's an Eduardo Perez or Austin Kearns like return (Asdrubal or McAllister). Gotta at least try and get something for him IMO. Makes a quarter of what Lowe was making from us and got better from the start of the season (not epicly worse).

I agree on Lopez though. I guess try and move him too but you DFAed him once and no one wanted him so think it's just time to move on there too.



Typical Hermie number skewing..... Overall his June numbers were ok. His July numbers were awful, only 2 XBH no homers, 2 RB1's and his May numbers sucked too. Acab had an awful July no doubt, but his May numbers (the month you left out to balance your math) were much, much better then Damon's. His June numbers were much better his .871 OPS vs. Damon's .763. Only in July did Damon have a slightly better month and his OPS was a whopping .616. Using the numbers of a slumping team mate to validate the stats of another is a sure-fire way to finish in last place. I think its pretty clear who is a has been the better performer at the plate. Someone might be interested in Damon for cash or possibly a fringy guy later but that is not my point. My point is I think Duncan and Fedroff give this team more of a chance win games NOW and Damon doesnt really do much of anything to help this team win.

One more thing From June 1st to July 31 Cabrera OPS was .049 better not .001. Please explain how to came to the only .001 difference between Acab and Damon, perhaps my math is wrong.


Your math may not be wrong (didn't check); however, your dates are wrong (I said May 30th, not June 1st). I said in another post that Damon's first 4 weeks were terrible (may 2nd thru May 29th is 28 days, aka 4 weeks). I wasn't saying Damon was better than Asdrubal. Was just pointing out how over the last 2 months or so (reason I left out most of May as it was more than 2 months ago) Damon actually was livable and not the problem in the lineup. He actually did outhit Asdrubal from June 16th to the end of July (mostly just cause AC was terrible in that stretch) for what it's worth (mostly nothing). Wasn't trying to "skew" anything or make Damon sound like the answer in LF. Simply was going by the most recent stretch of games at the time. A .721 OPS (what Damon had in my "skewed" timeframe) is clearly not good for LF but livable (Duncan has a .732 OPS on the year and OPS+ of 105 for reference). Also, not so sure a guy in AAA beats that now thru the end of the year. Would love it though obviously.

All for going younger now that the season is out of hand (never thought there was any way the Tribe goes 0 for 9 on that trip). I was mostly agreeing with you on moving on to younger guys (hence the bolded part) but simply was saying I'd have tried seeing if there were any waiver-trade interest in Damon first before cutting him. As I was saying, you could argue Damon is an upgrade over Lew Ford in Baltimore or Luke Scott in TB. Yanks have tried adding a guy like Carlos Lee (more for 1B probably though) so maybe a reunion with Damon on the cheap would interest them. Perhaps the Tribe tried and there was zero interest. I'd have thought there would have been zero interest in a guy like Eduardo Perez and almost none in a guy like Kearns too though. Antonetti did say he's still working on possibly trading not only Damon but Lowe and there's a chance a deal could get done (have 10 days to do something from when each was DFAed). Probably will get absolutely nothing either way, but (as I was trying to say and apparently failed to get across) worth a shot.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:04 pm

Hafner scratched from lineup for tonight....

Haven't heard if it's injury related? Or possibly on the move?
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:17 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Hafner scratched from lineup for tonight....

Haven't heard if it's injury related? Or possibly on the move?


Injury.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:35 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Hafner scratched from lineup for tonight....

Haven't heard if it's injury related? Or possibly on the move?


Injury.


Yeah just saw... "stiff back"

Sounds like an excuse I'd use after a long weekend and not wanting to work on a Monday too :razz
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:54 pm

It simply cannot get any worse.

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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:53 pm

Turn off the game to put in a movie... can 't decide between APOCALYPSE NOW and THE ABYSS...
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:22 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
Tondo wrote:This Kluber guy has no control whatsoever....he's a thrower, not a pitcher...what's he doing up here?

What the hell happened to this team? They beat Verlander in comeback fashion and are TOTAL crap since

Thank god for Lars Anderson :lol

Speaking of Squirrelander, look up his first ML game. I remember it well. I know that you're not a reactionary so lets give Kluber a little time.

Better outing for Kluber this time around. Not really efficient, 96 pitches in 6 innings but I'll take it.

Hang on guys!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:33 pm

God hates Cleveland...... :neutral
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:19 am

On a different note, Cory Burns made his major league debut for the Padres. He wasn't great (2 hits, 3 walks in 1.2 IP), but he didn't allow a run. He's already been sent back down to AAA.

Chris Perez... making us all so very sad.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:47 am

What has happened here is going all the way back to when Baseball America first was published, there is so much hype about minor league players that is planted for writers by the teams to get ink and increase visibility at the expense of actually knowing who the good players really are. Today communications is instant and all driven by advertising or back end products and services. A good number of the writers just write what they are told and so it just mushrooms into a big atomic bomb cloud of pure garble.


So BA doesn't do their own research, they just make a few phone calls to the beat writers for the major league teams (who don't follow the farm systems) and ask they who their teams' top prospects are? Got any evidence to support that?

What is the sense of having a Top 10 prospect list if none of them or not enough of them produce at the ML level. Pure marketing to sell tickets and hope. MLB is about winning at Progressive Field, it is the only thing that matters.


Well, sports is entertainment and there's nothing wrong with marketing. Except I haven't noticed the Indians "marketing" Lindor or any other prospect. Nobody is going to buy tickets to see the Indians because they have some highly ranked prospects in the farm system.

Hell if our farm system would have produced just ONE player per year who contributed at the ML over the past 12 years we would have had 12 home grown prospects.


No we wouldn't because at least half of those players would have left in free agency. Remember Victor, Thome, CC, Cliff Lee, and Manny?

The best thing the Indians have done is to correctly evaluate minor leaguers from other teams' farm systems. They traded expendable veterans for Choo, Asdrubal, Brantley, Santana, Marson, Carrasco, McAlister, and Chris Perez when they were still minor leaguers. There were a couple of misses, mainly Matt LaPorta and Andy Marte, but overall they've done well. They had some very bad luck with the career ending injuries to Jason Knapp and Adam Miller. The biggest problem has been the drafts, where nearly every first round pick has flopped. Even there they had some successes, like Kipnis, Pestano, Cody Allen, and hopefully Chisenhall.

They just have to start drafting better. It's their only chance to be competitive. The strategy of trading guys like Kearns and Broussard for top prospects is no longer viable. Teams won't give up those guys any more.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:10 am

...The strategy of trading guys like Kearns and Broussard for top prospects is no longer viable. Teams won't give up those guys any more....


While it may not seem like there are as many, the trading of marginal major league players for potential still exists. The best examples from the 2010 - 2012 trade deadline of this may include:

1. St. Louis acquires reliever Edward Mujica from the Marlins in exchange for minor league third baseman Zack Cox.

2. Chicago sends pitcher Paul Maholm and outfielder Reed Johnson to the Atlanta Braves in for Jaye Chapman and Arodys Vizcaino from the Braves. Vizcaino was the top prospect for the Braves.

3. Tigers acquired Jhonny Peralta from the Indians for minor league lefty Giovanni Soto.

4. The Dodgers trade Octavio Dotel for James McDonald and Andrew Lambo.

5. The Indians send Orlando Cabrera to the SF Giants for Thomas Neal

6. The Texas Rangers acquire Koji Uehara from Baltimore for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter

7. Detroit acquires Doug Fister & Dave Pauley from the Mariners for Charlie Furbush, Casper Wells Martinez and PTBNL

While the value of some of these trade may not be fully evaluated in the short term, their potential exists & they still happen. The key to making these kinds of deals is, is as you've stated, insightful understanding/projection of what a player will become. While it may not appear to be notable, the Lars Anderson trade has a chance to be completely one sided in favor of the North Coast Warriors..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:46 pm

Hafner back to the DL.. Donald re-called.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:54 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Hafner back to the DL.. Donald re-called.


So... Shelley Duncan is our new DH?

Also, the Indians cut ties with Jason Knapp, per MLBTR. And so the saying goes... TINSTAAPP
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:02 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Hafner back to the DL.. Donald re-called.


Hopefully, the time spent in AAA to work / polish Donald's OF skills won't go to waste.. Donald may not be given the chance to play everyday, but, he needs plenty of playing time to keep his edge..
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:07 pm

Donald leading off and playing 2B (Kipnis scratched due to neck soreness). Agree with GSon, hoping Donald will get a decent amount of playing time while up. Still feel 3B is his best position on the infield and with only Hanny and Lillibridge there, no real reason not to give him the bulk of the time there IMO.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:20 pm

:biggrin Leadoff HR for Donald!!!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:29 am

While the value of some of these trade may not be fully evaluated in the short term, their potential exists & they still happen. The key to making these kinds of deals is, is as you've stated, insightful understanding/projection of what a player will become. While it may not appear to be notable, the Lars Anderson trade has a chance to be completely one sided in favor of the North Coast Warriors..


True, and hopefully Soto and Neal will become productive major league players.

Another thing the Indians seem to be doing is targeting prospects who are struggling but who they believe can be rehabilitated. For example, Zach McAlister was considered a middling Yankees prospect at the time of the Austin Kearns trade. His numbers were not impressive and he wasn't that young anymore. But the Indians, specifically Ruben Niebla, reconstructed his pitching mechanics and just may have come out of this with a decent MOR starter.

I'm wondering if they have something similar in mind for Lars Anderson because otherwise I don't see the point in trading for him. Except that I don't see them bringing Kotchman back and they have nobody to play first base next year. Still, there's no way Lars is a major league 1st baseman right now. Maybe they think there's a flaw in his swing they can fix.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:55 am

Prosecutor, do you really believe the people who got the Indians into this mess can get them out of it???

The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results.

The ownership is undercapitalized, the owner is bureacratic rather than entrepreneurial, has a poor business model, the owners hired the wrong people who weren't baseball competent, who in turn hired the same. The path of destruction is easy to follow. It is the denial we all need to get over.

Can't win championships and compete with "Ivy League spreadsheet" guys. The plan to celebrate the farm system, which was all part of the calculated hype created STO executives to drive the fan base. In retrospect, it really shows the disgrace of the STO writers, programming and farm system ... the real reason this team can't compete. A few good trades and player transactions out of hundreds can never sustain a winning team without a steady stream of real good home grown talent.

Lousy, low caliber scouts, low grade executives, who all combined to make lousy picks all hired by one incompetent baseball "wanna-be" GM who is really laughed at by the likes of Kenny Williams and Billy Beane and others. The same guy who fired our best baseball man in the organization ... Charlie Manuel.

That's the real story. It ain't rocket science figuring this out, it all about people and their egos.

Somebody should write it.

PS We are about 18-24 months or sooner from the Dolan's realizing the reality and the team will be up for sale. Until then expect more of the same.

PPS Still remember the bewildered look on Bruce Drennan's face when Ken Harrelson told him the Indians would never compete in 2012. Another guy, (Drennan) who is on the payroll at STO.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:48 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
While the value of some of these trade may not be fully evaluated in the short term, their potential exists & they still happen. The key to making these kinds of deals is, is as you've stated, insightful understanding/projection of what a player will become. While it may not appear to be notable, the Lars Anderson trade has a chance to be completely one sided in favor of the North Coast Warriors..


True, and hopefully Soto and Neal will become productive major league players.

Another thing the Indians seem to be doing is targeting prospects who are struggling but who they believe can be rehabilitated. For example, Zach McAlister was considered a middling Yankees prospect at the time of the Austin Kearns trade. His numbers were not impressive and he wasn't that young anymore. But the Indians, specifically Ruben Niebla, reconstructed his pitching mechanics and just may have come out of this with a decent MOR starter.

I'm wondering if they have something similar in mind for Lars Anderson because otherwise I don't see the point in trading for him. Except that I don't see them bringing Kotchman back and they have nobody to play first base next year. Still, there's no way Lars is a major league 1st baseman right now. Maybe they think there's a flaw in his swing they can fix.


McAllister was still considered quite young when we traded for him. He was only 22 and in his first stint at AAA (same age as Rondon, only 2.5 months older). The only guys on last year's Columbus team that were any younger than him were Alex White and Lonnie Chisenhall. He's actually a year younger than Jason Kipnis. Middling prospect is sort of accurate though (one of their top prospects who was having just a terrible year), and agree the Indians have become pretty good at finding guys like that (Choo, Cabrera, McAllister).

I definitely think the indians see something in Lars and think he could potentially help them at 1B (or LF/DH) next year. Looks like the club will have openings in LF, 1B, and DH so could be plenty of opportunities for him.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:35 am

ironmike wrote:Prosecutor, do you really believe the people who got the Indians into this mess can get them out of it???


Here's an excerpt from a Diatribe column:

http://clevelandtribeblog.blogspot.com/ ... chive.html

Much has been made of the difference in the drafts run by Brad Grant, who has run the 2008, 2009, and 2010 drafts, versus those run by John Mirabelli, who was responsible for the draft from 2000 to 2007. The Indians are touting these signing bonuses for the 2010 Draftees as a way to be “hyper-aggressive” to add talent to the system in short order. However, if you start to look at some of the money that was doled out from 2000 to 2007, which is Mirabelli’s regime when he was running the draft, it’s not as if the Indians have never spent in the Draft in an attempt to find talent…they were just giving money to the wrong players that they were selecting.

Of course, I realize that this is old news, but in light of all of the high numbers being thrown around in terms of Pomeranz, Washington, Wolters, and Lavisky, let’s realize that a simple outlay of cash doesn’t guarantee much of anything by way of MLB success. To wit, take a look at all of the players who received more than $500K as a signing bonus in the Mirabelli regime:

Jeremy Sowers (1st Round, 2005) - $2,475,000
Michael Aubrey (1st Round, 2004) - $2,010,000
Jeremy Guthrie (1st Round, 2003) - $2,000,000
Dan Denham (1st Round, 2002) - $2,000,000

Trevor Crowe (1st Round, 2006) - $1,695,000
Beau Mills (1st Round, 2007) - $1,575,000
Brad Snyder (1st Round, 2004) - $1,525,000
Corey Smith (1st Round, 2000) - $1,375,000
Matt Whitney (1st Round, 2003) - $1,125,000
Adam Miller (1st Round, 2004) - $1,025,000
John Drennan (1st Round, 2006) - $1,000,000
Wes Hodges (2nd Round, 2006) - $1,000,000

JD Martin (1st Round, 2001) - $975,000
David Huff (1st Round, 2006) - $900,000
Mike Conroy (1st Round, 2001) - $892,500
Derek Thompson (1st Round, 2000) - $850,000
Jake Dittler (2nd Round, 2001) - $750,000
Justin Hoyman (2nd Round, 2005) - $725,000
Javier Herrerra (2nd Round, 2004) - $710,000
Mark Folsom (2nd Round, 2000) - $700,000
Chuck Lofgren (4th Round, 2005) - $650,000
Steven Wright (2nd Round, 2006) - $630,000
Josh Rodriguez (2nd Round, 2006) - $625,000
Stephen Head (2nd Round, 2005) - $605,000
Brian Tallet (2nd Round, 2000) - $595,000
Ryan Morris (4th Round, 2006) - $500,000

If you want to see how the results speak for themselves, take a look at the players drafted by the Indians from 2000 to 2007 who made it to MLB and how the players performed in MLB, as measured by WAR (Wins Above Replacement).

2000 Draft: 0.4 WAR Total for the Indians
Ryan Church: 5.2 (none as an Indian)
Joe Inglett: 3.2 (0.3 as an Indian)
Brian Tallet: 1.8 (0.1 as an Indian)
Jonathon Van Every: 0.3 (none as an Indian)
Derek Thompson: 0.3 (none as an Indian)
Eric Crozier: -0.2 (none as an Indian)

2001 Draft: 0.0 WAR Total for the Indians
Luke Scott: 9.9 (none as an Indian)
JD Martin: 0.6 (none as an Indian)

2002 Draft: 1.6 WAR Total for the Indians
Jeremy Guthrie: 13.6 (-0.3 as an Indian)
Ben Francisco: 2.8 (2.1 as an Indian)
Brian Slocum: -0.2 (-0.2 as an Indian)

2003 Draft: 4.0 WAR Total for the Indians
Kevin Kouzmanoff: 5.7 (-0.2 as an Indian)
Aaron Laffey: 1.7 (1.7 as an Indian)
Ryan Garko: 1.6 (2.8 as an Indian)
Michael Aubrey: 0.0 (-0.3 as an Indian)

2004 Draft: 1.0 WAR Total for the Indians
Jeremy Sowers: 1.7 (1.7 as an Indian)
Scott Lewis: 0.6 (0.6 as an Indian)
Tony Sipp: 0.3 (0.5 as an Indian)
Wyatt Toregas: -0.2 (-0.2 as an Indian)
Chris Gimenez: -1.4 (-1.4 as an Indian)

2005 Draft: 1.5 WAR Total for the Indians
Jensen Lewis: 1.7 (1.7 as an Indian)
Jordan Brown: 0.1 (0.1 as an Indian)
Trevor Crowe: -0.3 (-0.3 as an Indian)

2006 Draft: -1.4 WAR Total for the Indians
Josh Tomlin: 0.6 (0.6 as an Indian)
David Huff: -2.0 (-2.0 as an Indian)

2007 Draft: N/A
As a quick aside here, the only draftee from 2007 that has made it past AA is Josh Judy, who was a 34th Round Pick that year, meaning that the Indians have not had any MLB contributions from this Draft class, with the prospect of any of them contributing extensively looking rather bleak.

To recap that list, the players drafted by the Indians from 2000 to 2007 with the highest career WAR are as follows:
Jeremy Guthrie: 13.6
Luke Scott: 9.9
Kevin Kouzmanoff: 5.7
Ryan Church: 5.2
Joe Inglett: 3.2


The obvious issue (as if it isn’t already obvious) is that those players posted a cumulative -0.2 while playing for Cleveland and the list of players with the highest WAR as Indians is certainly less compelling:
Ryan Garko: 2.8
Ben Francisco: 2.1
Jeremy Sowers: 1.7
Jensen Lewis: 1.7
Aaron Laffey: 1.7

My comment: The drafts from 2000-2007 were an unmitigated disaster. The problem is that nobody knew had bad those drafts were until several years in. Nobody realized the guys drafted in 2000 weren't going to make it to the bigs until 2003 or 2004.

In 2008 they replaced Mirabelli with Grant. The jury is still out. But they were one of the top spending teams in baseball in the 2010 draft and went over slot for a number of players. They're being aggressive and spending money to get the prospects they really like signed. Whether they are doing a better job picking them than Mirabelli's group did is the question.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:42 am

Prosecutor, thanks for the details.

Tell us how Grant's prior credentials were an upgrade over Mirabelli? How does his prior track record compare to Hank Peters and even John Hart? Replacing Mirabelli who was in the position way to long is a great example of the how poorly the Indians are currently managed by ownership and front office.

I can tell you Hank Peters before coming back to the Indians under Dick Jacobs was heavily involved in drafting and signing these great players for the Oakland A's ... Catfish Hunter, Jim Nash, John Odom, Chuck Dobson, Joe Rudi, Campy Campaneris, Sal Bando, Rick Monday, Dave Duncan, and others. The players developed by Hank Peters helped the A's win three consecutive AL pennants from 1972 and 1974. Then he came to Cleveland and helped architect the same.

He had a great track record. He left the Indians in 1966 when Vernon Stouffer took a financial bath with his company and his net worth dropped from $23 million to $9 million which led to a bad drinking problem. One of the things Stouffer did was drastically cut the farm system budget. Peters saw the writing on the wall, no money to operate and sign players, he left for Oakland.

That's a track record, that's what real baseball guys do, not Ivy League spreadsheet geeks like we have had. That's the real reason we can't compete, the life blood of our organization has been on life support under Shapiro. Plus, give Dick Jacobs the real credit for knowing he had to hire the RIGHT people. He did it, that was the most important decision he made as owner of the Indians.

The above is what is missing in the present equation.

Also, who hires our present arcade of scouts, how many do we have? What are there backgrounds? What have they done before coming to the Indians? If they did scout prior for other organizations what impact players did they sign? And, most importantly, why did they leave their prior organizations?

Putting money in the farm system is important; however, it still comes down to selecting the talent with exceptional baseball people in charge with track records. Without it, expect more of the same.

Does Grant = Peter & Hart? I don't believe so. IMO the baseball guy in every organization should be the highest paid individual it is that important and ... even paid more than the GM.

In closing, when it isn't right from the start with the right guy, all the other things that trickle out of the mouth of scouts and executives who are really incompetent really just provides false hope for the fans. Isn't that what we all have been experiencing for the past decade?

Another important point, there is a formual for winning in the MLB. Shapiro had it handed to him, he blew it. A real unmitigated disaster ... and he got promoted for it. Wow! An Dolan wonders why he can't attract minority investors!

Thanks.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:10 am

Hank Peters... blah blah blah...

Dick Jacobs... blah blah blah...

Mr Dolan... blah blah blah...

Mark Shapiro.. blah blah blah..

Ivy League Spreadsheet Geeks.. blah blah blah..

You're like a bad broken record....
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:58 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Hank Peters... blah blah blah...

Dick Jacobs... blah blah blah...

Mr Dolan... blah blah blah...

Mark Shapiro.. blah blah blah..

Ivy League Spreadsheet Geeks.. blah blah blah..

You're like a bad broken record....


+1
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:59 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Hank Peters... blah blah blah...

Dick Jacobs... blah blah blah...

Mr Dolan... blah blah blah...

Mark Shapiro.. blah blah blah..

Ivy League Spreadsheet Geeks.. blah blah blah..

You're like a bad broken record....


+1


There's a reason he's on my ignore list on more than one form..... no doubt he'll now make some reference about me going off to watch cricket or something!
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:50 pm

Mike, I'm just an Indians fan and it's not my whole life. I don't have the time or the inclination to research Bud Grant's career, figure out what his "track record" is, and compare it to Mirabelli or anyone else. And I don't have the time to try and find out who hires the Indians' scouts, what are their backgrounds, what organizations they came from, etc. You keep saying somebody should write a book. Well, go ahead because I don't have the time.

All I'm saying is the Indians are paying the price for seven years of famine in which the combined WAR of all their draft picks was -0.2. When the best players they drafted for seven years were Tomlin, Guthrie, and Luke Scott, it's staggering. By all rights the Indians should be the Astros, who have won 9 of their last 44 games. Only a series of very astute trades where they gave up players like Einar Diaz, Casey Blake, Ben Broussard, Eduardo Perez, Mark DeRosa, Franklin Gutierrez and Austin Kearns for Hafner, Santana, Choo, Asdrubal, Chris Perez, Joe Smith, and Zach McAlister has kept them halfway respectable, to the point where they were 80-82 last year.

The whole scouting department from Mirabelli on down should have been fired by 2005 at the latest. You're right, it took far too long. I don't know if Grant has a clue but if he doesn't we're in a world of shit.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:53 pm

ZAjac, if you did a little research yourself instead of running around with stars in your eyes at a Rookie Level minimum wage job you might make a writer one day.

What's your solution?

Why don't you write about that.

There's a challenge for you.

You know why you won't, you don't have a solution. You're a repeat artist...wannabe. If you dish it out you better be able to take it.

Try your ankle biting routine with others it doesn't work with me.

And, ya, Ivy League Spreadsheet geeks is what you have, no doubt about it.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ironmike » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:13 pm

Prosecutor, you're income depends on Cleveland Indian prospects. You should find the time to research because it would allow you to have a better grasp of the situation and make better projections.

With their track record you should not believe a thing they tell you. IMO it's all hype and they use the media to sell false hope. Well, reality is here.

If Shapiro had any balls he would come clean, tell the fans he failed miserably, resigned.

Why? Because a team like the Indians that depends mightly on a solid, producing farm system as its life blood can't reach and sustain competitiveness without a top grade system no matter how many trades it makes or free agents they sign. The truth of the matter is the majority of the free agents do not want to come here because they know they will be low balled and moved as soon as things start to go south. Free agents only work in Cleveland as an additive to a significant core of young established ML players on the verge of winning.

The formula -- solid producing farm system annually to develop a core of young players that grow together, a few trades and a few key free agent signing when the team is able to contend ... it is simple. The farm system component is more than 50% of the equation, more like 70%.

Which means?

No farm system = the worst is yet to come.

Will take at LEAST 5 years to recover ,,, bookmark this post.

It might be crude the way it is posted (sticky content), but what is posted is correct. Dolan won't be the owner long, they just won't recover from this and will never win back the confidence of the fans, partners and advertisers.

As far as Zajac, you should be a little more particular regarding the stringers you higher, he certainly does not uphold your credibility or fit the professional demeanor you project.
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Re: Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:46 pm

I'm starting to warm up to Brent Lillibridge. :smile

edit: and zeke.
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