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New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

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New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby timdav » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:43 pm

If indeed the Browns are sold, and the new owners do it even half-way right....the Indians' ownership should be concerned.

The bottom line is this team is 30th in attendance in an older, economically depressed region of the country. There's only so many sports dollars for corporations and individual sports fans...and most of us want to align ourselves and follow a winner.

If most fans stop believing that the Tribe is really serious about trying to even occassionally be a legitimate world series contender...the team as a business will be in real trouble. A good, even a mediocre Browns team could knock the Indians out of the area sports awareness race faster than you can say Bernie Kozar.

We don't begrudge the Tribe's desire to make money. We're all capitalists! But, give us something real to cheer about once in a while, OK?

So, now...please do your job as our Indians' owners: find a new strategy. The current one, sadly, isn't working.
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby indians1 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:04 pm

Maybe the browns should win a damn game before the indians are concerned about new ownership.

It doesnt matter what the browns do. If the indians start drafting and developing guys properly, and actually get some stud prospects to come out of the farm system that produce, the fans will be support the team in august and september if they are in contention.

The fans in this town have shown that they aren't real baseball fans. The followed the indians back in the 90's because they were no browns and the cavs sucked.

The fans in this town suck and the Front office is pretty bad at talent evaluation. If the indians actually produce an impact player that they developed and drafted, fans will get excited.

That is what the pirates have done. Tampa Bay continues to get no fan support, but that doesn't stop them from drafting well and making shrewd trades.

What the browns do should be of no concern to the indians. The indians have to figure out how to beat the big market teams like detroit and chicago in their division.

If they do, they will be competitive year in and year instead of fading in july and august.
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:08 pm

The Browns will always edge the Tribe no matter what they do. The Browns can go 0-16 and I still believe they'd get more support than the Tribe. Sure, there'd be an outcry for new management, but overall, I believe Cleveland, and really Ohio, has become a football first town and state.

To top things off, the Browns have a lot of exciting rookies than fans can gather around; Richardson, Weeden, the RT, and Gordon.. as well as young guys like Haden, Taylor, Thomas, Cribbs....

The Indians obviously have a lot of young talent too, but Tribe fans are accustomed to sell, sell, sell.. so they figure eh, well.
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby timdav » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:17 pm

Guys...I am not a football fan. Could care less if the NFL went out of business today. I want our baseball team to some day win another World Series in my lifetime.

What I was trying to get across was...the economic environment in northeastern Ohio has caused just about every individual and corporation to more carefully choose where to spend their sports dollars. It's not like it was 5 or 10 years ago before the recent recession.

And, in a football-crazy area anyway...what will it be like if this new owner of the Browns really upgrades the team, and they start to even go .500...or really become a winning organization?

The point: it's time for the Dolans to re-examine their plan, and the people who are responsible for scouting/development, and putting the team together. An already strong competitor for sports dollars and sports media attention could be on the verge of getting a whole lot more dominant.
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby daingean » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:48 pm

Baseball is and always will be the best value for a family guy to take his kids to see a game. I think the Indians problem is that they have 4 minor league teams within driving distance. I think this affects the attendance more than the Browns or Cavs do. The economy sucks also but the minor league teams being so close does affect attendance for the Indians. You can see a minor league game for a fraction of the ML game plus be home and in bed before the big league game ends.

P.S. I used to be one of the biggest Browns fans around but now I could care less. I'm not going to give my business to the NFL again after '94. They ignored the fans and attendance clause in their own rules about moving a franchise. I'm no longer bitter (I once was) but I'm not going patronize a business that treated me poorly (there are a number of restaurants in this country that are likewise on my "forget you list").
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby indians1 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:49 pm

I really think the FO has really failed the dolans. I really believe the dolans want to win a championship here in cleveland. They have opened up the wallet for certain players and the FO was wrong in most of those instances.

As we know, the drafting was horrible under mirabelli and i think there are still question marks on brad grant.
One trade (pomeranz and white) and the farm system is dry. I give them credit for kipnis, but even him- they were lucky they were able to convert him to 2B. They draft the same kind of players and never get any high ceiling players.

Other than nick weglarz- what hitter have they drafted that had power potential? They draft these trevor crowe's, jordan brown, cord phelps, michael aubrey type guys that have "gap power" that could turn into HR's but never do.

WE have a flawed Front office department that is failing ownership and i think if antonetti and shapiro don't turn it around by next year- you have to fire them.

It is one thing to be loyal and another to allow failure. Shapiro and antonetti know 10 x more baseball than i will ever know, but they seem not to have the ability to put it together and put a consistent winning product on the field.
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby daingean » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:52 am

indians1 wrote:I really think the FO has really failed the dolans. I really believe the dolans want to win a championship here in cleveland. They have opened up the wallet for certain players and the FO was wrong in most of those instances.

As we know, the drafting was horrible under mirabelli and i think there are still question marks on brad grant.
One trade (pomeranz and white) and the farm system is dry. I give them credit for kipnis, but even him- they were lucky they were able to convert him to 2B. They draft the same kind of players and never get any high ceiling players.

Other than nick weglarz- what hitter have they drafted that had power potential? They draft these trevor crowe's, jordan brown, cord phelps, michael aubrey type guys that have "gap power" that could turn into HR's but never do.

WE have a flawed Front office department that is failing ownership and i think if antonetti and shapiro don't turn it around by next year- you have to fire them.

It is one thing to be loyal and another to allow failure. Shapiro and antonetti know 10 x more baseball than i will ever know, but they seem not to have the ability to put it together and put a consistent winning product on the field.


#1 it wasn't just trading Pom and White which gutted the farm system but that combined with the graduation of Kip, Chiz, Santana (year earlier).... plus injuries to Rondon, Knapp, Weglarz, De La Cruz, A.Perez....that's what gutted the farm. Injuries happen and prospects flame out (like Mills).

#2 Drafting philosophy which led the team to acquiring guys close to ML ready but with low ceilings like Crowe, Aubrey, Huff, Sowers, Mills all set the tone for Mirabelli drafts.

CA's off season this past year has to be graded an F. I think Rachel Phelps gave him the list of potential off season signings. This team could have (and maybe still can) competed in this division but they need an upgrade at both 1B and LF. On the bright side Kipnis and Brantley have really stepped it up.
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:24 am

Not that it can be withdrawn.. and not that it would make the Indians better.. the trade of Ubaldo Jimenez for Alex White, Drew Pomeranz, Matt McBride and Joe Gardner seems to be a focal point of the 'emptying' of the Indians farm system. But what did the Indians lose?

-Pomeranz and White: Combined have a 3-12 record with an era at 5.73. Sure, Drew Pomeranz has a projected unlimited upside, but, it hasn't been seen at the ML level.. White was moved as the Indians correctly identified that he would not become an average ML starter and would struggle to stay in the ML's as a middle reliever.. As of this writing, none of the players in this trade, save for Matt McBride's fantastic season at AAA Colorado Springs (.356/.383/.568) would rate at an 'accomplished season'.

-Ubaldo Jimenez: has been the epitome of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr Hyde.. when Ubaldo is good, he's very good (11 of his 21 starts) with an ERA of 2.73 (Ubaldo has been especially dominating when facing the Detroit Tigers: 3 starts, 18.2 IP, 4 ER's).. When he's bad, he's very bad (10 of his 21 starts) with an ERA of 8.82 (Ubaldo is especially bad when facing the CWSox 2 starts, 8.2 IP, 11 ER's). Getting consistency has been an elusive goal.. Ubaldo and specifically Indians pitching coach Scott Radinsky do not seem to be able to pinpoint what it takes to successfully achieve the kind of consistent performance that would label him a front of the rotation starter..

When a player or players are dealt, it is the responsibility of the players remaining to 'pick it up' for the departed. At the AAA level. Corey Kluber, Chris Seddon and, to an extent, JeanMar Gomez appear to be picking up where Pom and White left. Like in Colorado, it hasn't translated to the ML Level, yet.. It should be noted that Zach McAllister has made his way to the big club and is performing, well, better than anyone involved in this 'focal point' trade..
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:29 am

Regarding Randy Lerner's decision to investigate/sell the controlling interest in the Browns.. Ho friggan hum.... The new group will undoubtedly want to bring in their own management team.. This would render the current fifth 'five year plan' from the Browns return in 1999 useless and provide the impetus for the sixth five year plan in the last 13 years.

Will the new ownership group bring a spark to the dying embers of this once proud and successful franchise?.. Doubtful..
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:35 pm

daingean wrote:Baseball is and always will be the best value for a family guy to take his kids to see a game. I think the Indians problem is that they have 4 minor league teams within driving distance. I think this affects the attendance more than the Browns or Cavs do. The economy sucks also but the minor league teams being so close does affect attendance for the Indians. You can see a minor league game for a fraction of the ML game plus be home and in bed before the big league game ends.


I agree here and been always felt Lake County was a terrible idea for the Indians franchise. Columbus I understood (not really taking any fans away as much of that area is split, eitehr Reds, Indians, or mostly Yankees). Mahoning, ok it's just short season and gives you a bit of a foot-hold in the youngstown area (Pittsburgh could have snuck in like in football, but they were too bad to do so). Akron moving from Canton hurt but not much. The big killer was Lake County IMO. People coming further east may not see the point in going all the way to Cleveland when they can spot in Lake County. Very populated area over there (Mentor is obviously huge).
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Re: New Browns Ownership Should Concern Dolans

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:24 pm

Don't forget the Crushers out on the west side. They get decent attendance, and that's a relatively wealthy area to be drawing from. That's obviously not in the Indians' control, but it still hurts I think.
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