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Conventional Wisdom?

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Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:54 pm

What if Shelly Duncan and Jose Lopez were allowed to play everyday? How (Edit -
Who) in the name of any sanity thinks we would get a greater contribution from Damon and Kotchman absolutely defies sanity.

C'mon Manny and Tribe - think outside the box, Admit MISTAKES and move on. MISTAKES - Antonetti and Manny - huge MISTAKES - admit them and let this team win!

Bob

PS: And then there is LaPorta sucking in the minors with ML stats better than the idiocy we have been seeing.

PSS: Does our management want to win? VERY SERIOUS QUESTION.
Last edited by Bearcatbob on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:13 pm

You just made my eyes bleed.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:56 pm

I seriously doubt they don't want to win. And they likely believe that Damon is a better option because he has better range (though neither is a defensive wizard), and at least has a history of offensive success. I'm not saying it's the right call, but there's a good argument to be made for Damon continuing to start. It's not like Duncan has completely wowed us given his opportunities anyway. He too was part of the sub-mendoza club until recently.

As far as Lopez goes - he's getting a lot of at-bats. I fail to see the issue. The guy that arguably should be taking Kotchman's at-bats for awhile is Marson.

And LaPorta is still in AAA for reasons that have been pretty well speculated on. He still can't identify pitches well, is below-average at hitting breaking balls, etc. And he looked just as bad when he was called up briefly this year. What would he provide the team that Duncan and Lopez aren't already providing?
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:16 pm

"And LaPorta is still in AAA for reasons that have been pretty well speculated on. He still can't identify pitches well, is below-average at hitting breaking balls, etc. And he looked just as bad when he was called up briefly this year. What would he provide the team that Duncan and Lopez aren't already providing?"

LOL The issue is not Duncan and Lopez. The issue is the guy who gets the starts.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:19 pm

"As far as Lopez goes - he's getting a lot of at-bats. I fail to see the issue."

I sat and sweltered in the stands Friday and had absolutely no problem seeing the issue.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:32 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:What if Shelly Duncan and Jose Lopez were allowed to play everyday? How (Edit -
Who) in the name of any sanity thinks we would get a greater contribution from Damon and Kotchman absolutely defies sanity.

What absolutely defies sanity is that there is anyone still left who buys into Duncan's hot streaks. Good Lord, this is nothing new... these short bursts of offense are the only reason he has a major league career to begin with. The problem is that the streaks last a couple of weeks and are always followed by 2 months of complete worthlessness.

Lopez makes for a nice bench/role player, but I don't quite get all the accolades around here for a guy who can't keep his OBP over .300... and this is nothing new either, he's now played over 1,000 MLB games and has a career .294 OBP.

If you believe playing these guys everyday is the way to win, you might want to start thinking inside the box.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:39 am

Pork Chop - the problem is that all the guys who are so limited by the practitioners of conventional wisdom have performed better than our current players who have been selected for some reason to be better.

The LaPorta statistics scream at us. Oh yeah - LaPorta stinks - but wow - not nearly as bad as those who are deemed superior. And BTW - Duncan was playing pretty well until he got benched for inside the box thinking re Damon.

Bob
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:28 am

I agree that LaPorta should receive another chance. They decided heading into the off-season last year that he needed to be replaced and the roster mistakes started the domino effect from there... passing on left field acquisitions and only looking at first base, claiming that Josh Willingham "wasn't a fit" (when absolutely everyone could have predicted Sizemore's DL time anyway), leaving them once again signing whatever was left to sign right before spring training, because no one else wanted Kotchman, and then turning LaPorta's call-up earlier this season into a joke.

Completely disagree on Duncan. He's a 32-year-old one tool player with a baseball IQ in the idiot range, and no track record to suggest he'll ever do better. He's never seen a breaking ball in the left-handed batter's box that he doesn't think he can pull into the left field bleachers. He was already playing terribly when Damon joined the team, and that was with another one of his patented hot streaks to start the season. He did the exact same thing last season.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby indians1 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:54 pm

I think people really need to throw out numbers people put out in columbus because they are really inflated. Just look at what cord phelps did in columbus vs. the levels before in kinston and akron. His OPS shot up and people started talking like him and kipnis were on the same level even though kipnis had hit at every level. Even look at chisenhall's numbers this year in columbus and how much higher they were compared to previous years/levels.

The numbers at hunnington park need to be taken with a grain of salt and the quality of the AB's have to be looked at.

For all the people clamouring for matt laporta to be called up. Why would the indians' not bring him up if they thought he could help?

There is even more incentive to have him up in cleveland as much as any player because he was the centerpiece of the CC trade. The indians must see something in Laporta that says he will not help them. The guy is 27 years old and has been given ample opportunity to win the job but he doesn't or is not able to make the proper adjustments.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:05 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Pork Chop - the problem is that all the guys who are so limited by the practitioners of conventional wisdom have performed better than our current players who have been selected for some reason to be better.

The LaPorta statistics scream at us. Oh yeah - LaPorta stinks - but wow - not nearly as bad as those who are deemed superior. And BTW - Duncan was playing pretty well until he got benched for inside the box thinking re Damon.

Bob


I'm confused. Are you trying to state that LaPorta would be a better option than Damon/Kotchman, or are you trying to state that he's a better option than Duncan/Lopez?

Matt LaPorta, over the previous two seasons, was an unmitigated disaster. As in, he cost his team more wins (in a WAR sense) than all but two other major leaguers. You can say what you want about Kotchman and Damon, nobody denies that they've been disappointing, but if you suspect that Matt LaPorta is going to be better than them when he has no history of being better and hasn't shown much improvement to support the idea that he's gotten better, I don't see what supports that notion. To look at Kotchman/Damon this year and say "well, LaPorta from last year would be better than them so far this year" is cherry-picking the best possible comparison for LaPorta. Take any numbers that LaPorta has put up, and put them against anything Damon and Kotchman have put up in their career (well... except for Kotchman's 2010), and you'd come to the conclusion that Matt LaPorta is probably a worse player than either. There's no guarantee that LaPorta would be fairing even as well as he did last year this year, so it's certainly no safe assumption that he'd be better.

I'm not even arguing that it's impossible that Matt LaPorta would be an upgrade. It's certainly possible. But to claim that it's obvious and that it's a clear failing on the part of the front office is silly and speculative.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:43 pm

Would not a .250 hitter in left be a big upgrade?
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:21 am

Bearcatbob wrote:Would not a .250 hitter in left be a big upgrade?


Yes.. a .250 hitting LF would be a big upgrade. At the ASB, the Indians dynamic duo of Johnny Damon and Shelly Duncan have combined for 321 AB's while hitting a meager .219 to go with 12 HR's, 47 runs scored and 38 RBI's. There is not a single player in all of MLB that has 320 AB's with numbers this poor.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby ChadS17 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:13 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Would not a .250 hitter in left be a big upgrade?


Yes.. a .250 hitting LF would be a big upgrade. At the ASB, the Indians dynamic duo of Johnny Damon and Shelly Duncan have combined for 321 AB's while hitting a meager .219 to go with 12 HR's, 47 runs scored and 38 RBI's. There is not a single player in all of MLB that has 320 AB's with numbers this poor.


That dynamic duo is leading the Indians in homeruns.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:55 pm

When Duncan is on a hot streak you ride it while it lasts. In 2011 he hit .370/1.023 in April. In Sep he had 7 HR's, 23 RBI and a .942 OPS.

In his last 7 games he's hitting .400 with 4 HR's. I'd be playing him every day until he cools off.

Damon's June OPS was .763. So far in July it's .667. Last year LaPorta's OPS was .711. So Damon has been about the same as LaPorta since June 1.

I think the Indians are going to stick with Duncan and Damon in left rather than give up quality prospects for a three month rental. Canzler is also an interesting option, although it's true those Columbus numbers are inflated. I really think LaPorta has already had his last chance.
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Re: Conventional Wisdom?

Postby Chiefroy » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:27 pm

Prosecutor wrote:When Duncan is on a hot streak you ride it while it lasts. In 2011 he hit .370/1.023 in April. In Sep he had 7 HR's, 23 RBI and a .942 OPS.

In his last 7 games he's hitting .400 with 4 HR's. I'd be playing him every day until he cools off.

Damon's June OPS was .763. So far in July it's .667. Last year LaPorta's OPS was .711. So Damon has been about the same as LaPorta since June 1.

I think the Indians are going to stick with Duncan and Damon in left rather than give up quality prospects for a three month rental. Canzler is also an interesting option, although it's true those Columbus numbers are inflated. I really think LaPorta has already had his last chance.



Hell yeah, I agree on Duncan....play him while he's hot. And Damon's had his moments....maybe he can come out hot to start the second half. Cunningham is a waste of space. If we need to give Brantley a day off, then move Choo to center. Replace Cunningham with whoever the hell is hitting in the minors. Canzler, LaPorta, Neal, Weglarz, anybody...I don't care. Call up one these guys when they're hot and who knows, they may go Trevor Plouffe on us and just keep on hitting. Miami has a hot stick going right now with Justin Ruggiano. Might be a guy to ask about.
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