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Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

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Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby ironmike » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:28 am

Here's a comment from Rotoworld, the guy that wrote it really exposed himself of how little he really knows about the finer points of the game.

"Tomlin was outpitched by Felix Hernandez, but the Indians were able to come back and score two runs in the top of the ninth to win 2-1. The win was the first for Tomlin, who entered with an 8.31 ERA in two starts. He may have bested the Mariners, but he shouldn't be used in AL-only leagues against better offenses."


Per Sandy Alomar, the reason Josh Tomlin is so effective is the tilt on his breaking ball is 12-6, one of the few pitchers in the big leagues that throws this type of breaking ball. He also changes speeds very well, and pitches to both sides of the plate with all of his pitches.

Per Mitch Williams, on Jamie Moyer's latest victory at the age of 49, "If a pitcher throws 83 MPH and can throw his off speed pitches at 69-73 MPH the pitcher can get ML hitter out on a consistent basis."

So all this garbage written by writers who never played the game that are fascinated with "power" arms should take notice that there are many throwers out there and very few pitchers. Pitchers win, throwers are only effective when they can spot their pitches consistently.

Tomlin prior to his call up to the Indians was never on any Top 10 prospect lists, but the Indians, especially Tim Belcher was very aware of Tomlin's abilities. During his time with the Indians, Tomlin has shut down some very good offenses, including the Yankess a few times.

He always gets "labeled" as a fifth starter, but Tomlin is as good as any of our starting pitchers. I'm glad we have him. His breaking ball, an old fashion drop, is unhittable and he spots his other pitches well. He gives up HR's many times with no one on base, but so did Catfish Hunter.

Tomlin's a pitcher and he's extremely tough when he's on, don't discount him.

When grading or valuing prospects, dismiss how hard they throw the ball and take a closer look at the intangibles they possess.

Some quotes regarding Tomlin's performance last nite ...

Tomlin (1-1, 4.86) allowed five hits, no walks and struck out seven. He threw 74 percent (71-of-96) for strikes.

"I couldn't be any prouder of my Little Cowboy," Acta said. "We needed Josh to keep us right there and give our offense a chance to win. That's just what he did."

Mariners manager Eric Wedge threw seven lefties, counting switch hitters, against Tomlin. They went 4-for-23 (.174) against him.

"I had a good change-up," said Tomlin. "I didn't have to go [cut fastball]-happy. The change-up gave me something else to throw all those lefties."


How many of you noticed Bartolo Colon threw 38 consecutive strikes in his last outing? We will be facing him in this upcoming series.

One last comment, it was good to see the Indians wearing their blue tops with the Chief Wahoo logo on their hat versus the goofy block "C" the front office is insisting upon in order to sell more merchandise. The italic "I" was even worse. Never see the Yankees changing their uniforms.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:08 am

Couple of quick notes in response:

-When Josh Tomlin is getting his 12-6 hammer curve over the plate for quality strikes, he doesn't have to rely on his fastball and cut fastball as much. It can be a wipe out pitch and, by changing eye level, can make batters chase his high HARD ONE. Couple the curve with a four seam fastball that he changes speed on, up to 90-91 MPH when he wants a little more & around 86 when he takes a little off together with his cutter keeps batters off balance and makes him a very good pitcher.

-Called strikes & swinging strikes are still strikes.

-The blue jersey's with "Indians" across the chest goes against convention & should never be worn on the road. As long as Chief Wahoo is somewhere on the uniform (Hat or Sleeve) that works.. The block "C" is just okay.. nothing special... The script "I" that looks like a feather is just bad...
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:15 pm

Tomlin pitched a good game last night, but it is one start. He also had a lot of LOUD outs hit right at people which prevented runs.

I like Tomlin and think he could be a solid #4 or #5 pitcher for a long time. You don't need a power fastball to succeed as long as you have good command (which Tomlin has) and some good secondary stuff (which Tomlin doesn't have). That's the difference between Tomlin and some of the other finesse type pitchers....he really lacks any plus secondary offering. As a result, he will always have the propensity to get hammered any time out because hitters know he is around the zone and they do not fear any of his pitches. But as long as he limits baserunners with low walks and throws quality strikes, he can be a solid pitcher for the Indians.....I just would not go overboard with his potential to be more.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby ironmike » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:07 pm

Tomlin's breaking ball, 12-6 is one of the best in the game, per Sandy Alomar. So his secondary stuff does play well with his ability to change speeds and locate.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby artgold » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:54 pm

I generally like Tomlin too, and long time posters here know I was mentioning him well before the Indians decided to give him a chance.

Relative to his potential, I can't figure out exactly what makes a #3, #4 or #5 starter, but in terms of Tomlin I think he can win 12-13 games a season and have 60+% Quality Starts over the course of a season.

However that fits...I think he is a fixture in the rotation. I'm not worried about his slot, nor having to replace him. I think he is pretty bright, and will be working on being more strategic in throwing more pitches outside of the strike zone.

And I think this will help make him more effective over the long term.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:11 pm

ironmike wrote:Tomlin's breaking ball, 12-6 is one of the best in the game, per Sandy Alomar. So his secondary stuff does play well with his ability to change speeds and locate.


I respect Alomar as the guy knows baseball....but I'll have some of what he's drinking...

Not saying Tomlin's curve it bad, but one of the best in the game? That's a big stretch. Seems like he was just talking up one of his own.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby ironmike » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:29 pm

Hermie, for the record Bert Blyleven agrees with Alomar.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:06 am

artgold wrote:I generally like Tomlin too, and long time posters here know I was mentioning him well before the Indians decided to give him a chance.
Relative to his potential, I can't figure out exactly what makes a #3, #4 or #5 starter, but in terms of Tomlin I think he can win 12-13 games a season and have 60+% Quality Starts over the course of a season.
However that fits...I think he is a fixture in the rotation. I'm not worried about his slot, nor having to replace him. I think he is pretty bright, and will be working on being more strategic in throwing more pitches outside of the strike zone.
And I think this will help make him more effective over the long term.


Yes, Art & I were driving the Tomlin bandwagon by ourselves for a few years. Sure is nice that others have climbed aboard. Truth be told - Art wanted to see Josh stay in the rotation while I called for a full conversion to the pen (thought his ability to throw strikes/ minimize walks was key coming out of the pen & felt a move to the pen role could result in a few more mph to the pitches).
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby ironmike » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:22 am

Hermie and Geronimo's Son here is some more information for you to put in your peace pipes ... led the posts on this for about 2 years. Less K's more BB's the formula for scoring more runs ...

Indians hitters last year finished second in the AL with 1,269 strikeouts and seventh in walks with 494.

It was a familiar pattern in an organization (Wedge & Shapiro) that for years didn't think twice about striking out. Here are the Tribe's strikeout and walk totals over the past four years.

• 2011: No. 2 in strikeouts at 1,269, No. 7 in walks at 494.

• 2010: No. 2 in strikeouts at 1,184, No. 6 in walks at 545.

• 2009: No. 3 in strikeouts at 1,211, No. 5 in walks at 582.

• 2008: No. 3 in strikeouts at 1,213, No. 6 in walks at 560.

This season the Indians lead the AL in walks with 57 and rank 10th in strikeouts with 89.

"This has been huge for our game," said Acta. "This isn't so much about walks. We wanted to cut down the strikeouts. There are guys like Santana, Travis Hafner and Shin-Soo Choo where walking is part of their game. But we concentrated more on cutting down the strikeouts."

This spring Acta and hitting coach Bruce Fields talked about having better at-bats with two strikes.

"We let the them know how many strikeouts we had over the last four years," said Acta. "We talked about having a good two-strike approach. We're not talking about choking up or spreading out your stance, but you have to have a better mind-set.

"We showed them in a lot of different ways that if you put the bat on the ball you give yourself a chance. When you strike out, you don't give yourself a chance."


Baseball is not complicated or played any better today than it was in the past. Put the dam ball in play and good things will happen. Brantley needs to start drag bunting once per game. Can't believe he won't do it, he has the ability. He needs to watch hours of film of Kenny, Omar and Robbie ... Acta and Fields need to make this a priority. Yes, this will be my new rant topic until he starts doing it because it is the right thing to do. This does not take an entire spring training to do, it can be learned in a week.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:51 am

ironmike wrote:Hermie and Geronimo's Son here is some more information for you to put in your peace pipes ... led the posts on this for about 2 years. Less K's more BB's the formula for scoring more runs ...


Baseball is not complicated or played any better today than it was in the past. Put the dam ball in play and good things will happen. Brantley needs to start drag bunting once per game. Can't believe he won't do it, he has the ability. He needs to watch hours of film of Kenny, Omar and Robbie ... Acta and Fields need to make this a priority. Yes, this will be my new rant topic until he starts doing it because it is the right thing to do. This does not take an entire spring training to do, it can be learned in a week.


Don't recall anyone saying they didn't want to see the strikeout numbers come down. It's just not the end of the world. Again, Rays, Tigers, and Yanks all were top 6 last year in the AL in strikeouts, yet made the playoffs (Rays were right behind us in 3rd, and added Pena/Scott for Kotchman/Damon). More impressed with the walk total, but definitely happy to see the strikeouts come down.

The Tribe team strikeout number is a bit misleading though. The Tribe is tied with the Tigers for 9th with 94 K's now....but they've played 2 fewer games. In fact, only the blue Jays and White Sox have more strikeouts than the Indians while playing the same number of games (Blue Jays have 96, ChiSox have 115). Compared to the last few years though the strikeouts are coming at a lower right, completely agree, but they are still up near the top in K/game.

The fact that we are leading the league in walks (by 9 over the Rays) despite playing in the fewest games in the AL is the real key here....that is just phenomenal. 4th in all of baseball in OBP...no surprise that we are 5th in runs. :biggrin



As far as Brantley....disagree completely. Brantley is fast, but he lacks a quick first step. Can be seen when he's getting out of the box (led the team in GDPs last year), on stolen base attempts, and in the OF. Brantley is not Kenny Lofton, not Robbie, and not Omar. Need to stop forcing him to be that type of hitter. I don't doubt that Brantley could drag bunt once a guy...would likely result in an out and wasted at-bat though. Kenny Lofton rarely drag bunted too. He would lay it down the 3B line. Drag bunt is when you're dragging the ball along with you down the 1B line, which is something that actually does take a while to master. Kenny was also a much better baserunner than Brantlely, though in fairness was older when he was with the Tribe, so still hoping Brantley can develop that part of his game. I definitely wouldn't be upset if Brantley tried bunting a bit more, but just don't see him being successful at it. Would rather see him focus on his hitting than bunting right now.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby ironmike » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:45 pm

Hermie your baseball brain is on speed dial.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:32 am

ironmike wrote:Tomlin's breaking ball, 12-6 is one of the best in the game, per Sandy Alomar. So his secondary stuff does play well with his ability to change speeds and locate.


Not at all Mike. I don't care what Sandy Alomar Jr. says publicly to the press. Tomlin has an average breaking ball, at best. Talk to any scout or league executive off the record and they will tell you that. If we believe what Alomar or any Indians coach or executive says in the papers, then a lot of our pitchers would be the best in the league at a lot of things.;-) Having talked so many times to the Indians about these players, they always talk guys up to help create industry value (and talk them up period).

Now, what I have heard a lot of times is how Tomlin's CUTTER is a very good pitch and is what has made him much more effective since he picked that up the last few year's. But the cutter is a completely different pitch than the curveball, a pitch he always threw in college/minors, and is still an average at best offering. The cutter is what makes Tomlin effective, and is his best pitch. By far.
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Re: Tomlin Valued Highly By Indians Baseball People

Postby ironmike » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:52 am

No, his 12-6 curveball, an old fashion drop is what Sandy spoke about. I'll take his word for it. He's played the game and been around it forever, including his father who spent 30 years at the highest level.

Tomlin leap frogged many prospects, because Belcher and othes valued him correctly. Disagreeing with the evaluation of Belcher, Blyleven and Alomar would only mean there is some sort of other underlying factor in your stance.

Plus, Tomlin pitches his ass off in most games and 90% of the time gets to the 6th inning of better because of his ability to change speeds, gets tilt on his pitches and pitch to both sides of the plate. Most MLB hitters are "dead red" fastball hitters and a guy like Tomlin gives them fits because he is a pitcher versus a thrower. Not opinion, just fact.
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