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Good Trades, Bad Trades

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Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:51 pm

Hoynes had an article in the paper today about trades. He also had a list of good trades and bad trades. I've got no problem with the list, except that they are all recent (20 years) trades. The franchise is over 100 years old so I thought we could expand it a bit.

Good Trades: :good:
Sam McDowell (my boyhood hero) to the Giants for Gaylord Perry and Frank Duffy. To this day I will say Sam had the best stuff I ever saw, but never was consistent. Gaylord went on to 2 Cy Youngs and the HOF.

Rick Sutcliffe to Cubs for Joe Carter and Mel Hall (others also involved). Sutcliffe was very servicable for the Cubs, but Joe Carter beame a 30-30 guy with the Indians. Also, a valuable commodoty when he was traded.

Jackie Brown traded to Expos for Andre Thornton. Thunder became a franchise HR leader.

Bad Trades: :reallyshocked:
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson to White Sox for PTBNL. (Yes, before my time). Had the tribe kept Shoeless Joe, he would have stayed out of the scandal in Chicago, and into the HOF. (But he might have stayed out of the movies too.)

Rocky Colavito to the Tigers for Harvey Kuenn. Indians trade local hero HR king for AL batting champ. Disillusioned a generation of Indian fans, but may have prepared them and their decedents for the future.

Dennis Eckersly to the Red Sox for Ted Cox (others involved). Eckersly went on to the HOF. Cox was a can't miss 3B prospect. The Andy Marte of the 70's. Ted Cox went on to become,,well,, Ted Cox.

Other nominations?
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby daingean » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:10 pm

Good trades:

October 3, 1978: Len Barker Traded by the Texas Rangers with Bobby Bonds to the Cleveland Indians for Larvell Blanks and Jim Kern.

August 28, 1983: Len Barker Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the Atlanta Braves for players to be named later and $150,000. The Atlanta Braves sent Rick Behenna (September 2, 1983), Brett Butler (October 21, 1983) and Brook Jacoby (October 21, 1983) to the Cleveland Indians to complete the trade.

Bad Trades:

September 12, 1982: John Denny Traded by the Cleveland Indians to the Philadelphia Phillies for Wil Culmer, Jerry Reed and Roy Smith.
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:18 pm

I've always believed that the disaster that was Giles for Rincon was caused by another failed trade- Steve Kline to Montreal for Jeff Juden. After having shipped Alan Embree at the start of the 97 season (with Lofton for Justice & Grissom), this left the Tribe dangerously short from the left side in the pen, especially as Paul Assenmacher was starting to fall apart.

Had Kline not been dealt (Juden did nothing with the Tribe) & still become the bullpen lefty he did for Montreal then St. Louis, then the need to get Rincon disappears and Giles could have been moved for a better starting pitcher.
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:33 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Hoynes had an article in the paper today about trades. He also had a list of good trades and bad trades. I've got no problem with the list, except that they are all recent (20 years) trades.


The "article" by Hoynes was another typical means to an end for him.. DRAG THE INDIANS FRONT OFFICE, MR DOLAN into the MUD and soil any aspect of what they're attempting to do at the corner of Carnegie and Ontario.. Hoynes didn't limit the time frame.. He promoted his own agenda about the CC Sabathia trade and the Cliff Lee Trade and what he likes to refer as objective journalism.. Hoynes carries a grudge like Tony Rizzo & his hate of the Art Modell (Modell got Rizzo fired from a cushy TV gig..and RIZZO never forgot it.. and was never able to look objectively at what Mr Modell did for the city of cleveland during his long stay in the city). Hoynes is an unapologetic provocateur who incites the IDIOTS at Cleveland.dumb to respond with cheap comments about the Indians..

The article was shameless & spineless..just like the chickenshit asswipe Paul Hoynes is and represents..
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:04 pm

I don't get your harsh criticism of Hoynes, Geronimo. I didn't see that column as an attempt to "drag the Indians front office...into the mud."

Contrary to your statement, Hoynes did limit the time frame - he considered all trades since he began covering the Tribe in 1983.

His five worst trades started with the granddaddy of them all, the Brandon Phillips deal. No argument there. He also included two trades from 1989 and 1998, well before the current administration came to power.

The only fairly recent trades he had on his "five worst" list were the Sabathia and Lee deals. Sabathia is 70-25 since he was traded and all the Tribe got is LaPorta, Brantley and a minor league pitcher. Hoynes' comment; "Need more." That's a pretty mild criticism. I think it's somewhat unfair because there was no choice but to trade CC and the Brewers clearly offered the best deal. Still, it wasn't exactly a scathing indictment.

He said the Lee trade looks worse every time you look at it, which is true because the injuries keep mounting for Knapp and Carrasco - the two high upside players the Tribe received. Hoynes never said that either trade should not have been made.

Hoynes said he evaluated the trades based on "impact on forming a consistent winner." You can't argue that the Lee and Sabathia trades have had much if any impact on the Indians forming a consistent winner so far.

Both deals still get incomplete grades in my book. I haven't completely written off Knapp yet although he's probably the next Adam Miller. Carrasco should be at least a MOR starter after recovering from his surgery. Donald looked good at the end of last season and Marson is a useful piece. Brantley is emerging as a solid starter and Bryson is still a viable prospect.

You may have issues with Hoynes in other areas but as far as that specific column is concerned, I didn't see any mud dragging.
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby daingean » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:45 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't get your harsh criticism of Hoynes, Geronimo. I didn't see that column as an attempt to "drag the Indians front office...into the mud."

Contrary to your statement, Hoynes did limit the time frame - he considered all trades since he began covering the Tribe in 1983.

His five worst trades started with the granddaddy of them all, the Brandon Phillips deal. No argument there. He also included two trades from 1989 and 1998, well before the current administration came to power.

The only fairly recent trades he had on his "five worst" list were the Sabathia and Lee deals. Sabathia is 70-25 since he was traded and all the Tribe got is LaPorta, Brantley and a minor league pitcher. Hoynes' comment; "Need more." That's a pretty mild criticism. I think it's somewhat unfair because there was no choice but to trade CC and the Brewers clearly offered the best deal. Still, it wasn't exactly a scathing indictment.

He said the Lee trade looks worse every time you look at it, which is true because the injuries keep mounting for Knapp and Carrasco - the two high upside players the Tribe received. Hoynes never said that either trade should not have been made.

Hoynes said he evaluated the trades based on "impact on forming a consistent winner." You can't argue that the Lee and Sabathia trades have had much if any impact on the Indians forming a consistent winner so far.

Both deals still get incomplete grades in my book. I haven't completely written off Knapp yet although he's probably the next Adam Miller. Carrasco should be at least a MOR starter after recovering from his surgery. Donald looked good at the end of last season and Marson is a useful piece. Brantley is emerging as a solid starter and Bryson is still a viable prospect.

You may have issues with Hoynes in other areas but as far as that specific column is concerned, I didn't see any mud dragging.


MS could have waited till the trade deadline for Sabathia and might have gotten a better return but CC wasn't really setting the world of fire with the Indians that year. He did really turn it on after the trade though. Brantley's value really would be higher if he was a CF instead of an LF. And the minor league pitcher is a reliever. LaPorta has potential but he needs to start meeting that potential for this trade to even resemble being rated even (the only way it exceeds even is if Brantley can move to CF adequately).

The Lee trade is more in the line of wait and see. If Carrasco can come back and pitch as a #2 or #3 pitcher, you do have some solid return. I am not optimistic on Knapp (haven't been since we found out his injury was a shoulder) but maybe he can come back but that clock is ticking. Now if Marson and Donald can establish themselves as good backups or be included in a trade for an important piece (mostly Marson here) then the pendulum of the trade rating may go into our favor. Lee was a reigning Cy Young but in truth wasn't considered an A level player until he pitched in the WS for Philly (that's when his value skyrocketed).
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:02 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't get your harsh criticism of Hoynes, Geronimo. I didn't see that column as an attempt to "drag the Indians front office...into the mud."

Contrary to your statement, Hoynes did limit the time frame - he considered all trades since he began covering the Tribe in 1983.

His five worst trades started with the granddaddy of them all, the Brandon Phillips deal. No argument there. He also included two trades from 1989 and 1998, well before the current administration came to power.

The only fairly recent trades he had on his "five worst" list were the Sabathia and Lee deals. Sabathia is 70-25 since he was traded and all the Tribe got is LaPorta, Brantley and a minor league pitcher. Hoynes' comment; "Need more." That's a pretty mild criticism. I think it's somewhat unfair because there was no choice but to trade CC and the Brewers clearly offered the best deal. Still, it wasn't exactly a scathing indictment.

He said the Lee trade looks worse every time you look at it, which is true because the injuries keep mounting for Knapp and Carrasco - the two high upside players the Tribe received. Hoynes never said that either trade should not have been made.

Hoynes said he evaluated the trades based on "impact on forming a consistent winner." You can't argue that the Lee and Sabathia trades have had much if any impact on the Indians forming a consistent winner so far.

Both deals still get incomplete grades in my book. I haven't completely written off Knapp yet although he's probably the next Adam Miller. Carrasco should be at least a MOR starter after recovering from his surgery. Donald looked good at the end of last season and Marson is a useful piece. Brantley is emerging as a solid starter and Bryson is still a viable prospect.

You may have issues with Hoynes in other areas but as far as that specific column is concerned, I didn't see any mud dragging.


Pros..Then what was the point of the column?.. Point out the last exclusively positively presented column by Paul Hoynes in the last two years.. His latest "gifts to journalism" (read lack thereof) are about how Mark Shapiro's golden trade of Bartolo Colon is now a pile of rubbish..

w/r to this particular column, the injuries suffered by the players acquired in the these trade have nothing to do with the trade in and of itself.. These trades were the best the Indians could do at the time they were made.

AND YES.. I do have issue with Paul Hoynes and the PD.. My vote has gone the way it should: cancelled the paper.. Have you seen any culpability being heaped upon an owner after he presented a player with a hundred million dollar offer as being cheap? ANY OTHER OWNER?.. that's what Paul Hoynes has done.. At one point, I counted 32 of 34 consecutive columns he wrote that defined the Indians ownership as being CHEAP. ANY CRITICISM of PAUL HOYNES is valid.. He's a schmuck with an agenda and a HUGE part of the reason why circulation of a one newspaper town is DYING. Ever read the comments from stories written by posters at Cleveland.dumb? they're not very bright, but they are consistent..

He's not the news.. he's supposed to report the news.. If you want information about the Indians, Browns or Cavs.. go to the National Press and other outlets (like IPI, Yarkbarker, Bleacher Report, Yahoo, etc..).. This may not suit your tender sensibilities, but, it wasn't an accident that LeBron James told the PD to go stuff it whenever they asked for interviews. Only the national media and other sources were granted those.. Can you imagine what Peyton Hillis is going to do at the end of this season?.. when the first question from the PD is going to be.. did you fake strep throat so that you can get a better contract?.. and the next athlete that runs a cropper of the Cleveland media bites the dust... SMH
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:05 am

Pros..Then what was the point of the column?.. Point out the last exclusively positively presented column by Paul Hoynes in the last two years..


As I understood it, the column was prompted by the release of Grady Sizemore, who was the last remaining piece of the Colon trade that started the Tribe's 2002 rebuilding project. As a spinoff column, Hoynes decided to take a look at the best and worst trades the Tribe has made since he started covering them in 1983. I read the piece before seeing your comments and it didn't strike me as being either positive or negative. It was just a column to write during the off-season when nothing much was happening.

If you're looking for "exclusively positive" columns, then you're not looking for objective journalism, you're looking for cheerleaders, right?

w/r to this particular column, the injuries suffered by the players acquired in the these trade have nothing to do with the trade in and of itself.. These trades were the best the Indians could do at the time they were made.


I agree. The one difference I have with Hoynes is his remark that the Indians should have gotten more for Sabathia. They had no choice but to trade him by July 31 and they took what they believed was the best offer. They selected Brantley over a 3rd baseman named Green, and so far that choice turned out to be correct. If Hoynes thinks they should have gotten more he should be specific and say what alternatives they had and what they should have done instead. The "should have gotten more" comment was kind of a hit and run.

Have you seen any culpability being heaped upon an owner after he presented a player with a hundred million dollar offer as being cheap? ANY OTHER OWNER?.. that's what Paul Hoynes has done..


Sorry, I must have missed the column where he accused the Indians of being "cheap" for offering a player $100 million. Who was it, Sabathia? If you have a link I'll be happy to look at it, and if you're right, then I'll agree with you about Hoynes.

He's a schmuck with an agenda and a HUGE part of the reason why circulation of a one newspaper town is DYING.


Really? The baseball beat writer is almost singlehandedy killing an entire big city newspaper? That's news to me, I thought it was the Internet and Craig's List that was putting newspapers all over the country out of business.

This may not suit your tender sensibilities, but, it wasn't an accident that LeBron James told the PD to go stuff it whenever they asked for interviews.


I thought James gave interviews to Brian Windhorst when he worked for the PD. Didn't Windhorst follow him to Miami? If not, it was because James thought he was too big a star for Cleveland and any interviews he gave were reserved for bigger media outlets than the lowly Plain Dealer.
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby daingean » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:11 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
w/r to this particular column, the injuries suffered by the players acquired in the these trade have nothing to do with the trade in and of itself.. These trades were the best the Indians could do at the time they were made.


Except that Knapp was injured at the time of the trade. It was mis-diagnosed as a bicep injury. The Indians should have at least done a physical and identified the shoulder injury. Biceps rarely scare me with pitchers but shoulder injuries do. :search:
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Re: Good Trades, Bad Trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:03 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
w/r to this particular column, the injuries suffered by the players acquired in the these trade have nothing to do with the trade in and of itself.. These trades were the best the Indians could do at the time they were made.


Except that Knapp was injured at the time of the trade. It was mis-diagnosed as a bicep injury. The Indians should have at least done a physical and identified the shoulder injury. Biceps rarely scare me with pitchers but shoulder injuries do. :search:


I agree.. shoulder injuries can devastate a pitcher's career.

Baseball, in general, finds itself in a pretty bad situation with respect to the health of a player that is part of a transaction. When literally tens of millions of dollars are at risk, not knowing the current condition of a player (MLB teams are permitted to share only that information that is currently on file, which in most cases, is dated and, usually incomplete) is a crazy way to evaluate a potential asset. If a team attempts to make a trade and requires a physical and finds "something", while not a guarantee of whatever they find being a roadblock to a successful baseball career that team may back out of the trade. The damage done to the player's reputation could be worse than the actual injury...
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