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World Series Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:53 am

Anybody out there watching the World Series? Any series without the Yanks or Sox is fine with me. We've had some good games so far and I think it will go 7.

These are two good teams. The Cards got hot at the right time. But the Rangers are in consecutive series now. What is interesting to me is how the Rangers were built. I don't know if they were lucky or good. Consider the following key players:

Josh Hamilton - Overcame his demons, but Texas is his 4th organization and went through the rule 5 draft.
Nelson Cruz - traded 3 times and has made well under $1 million per season until this year.
Elvis Andrus - Was one of the "prospects" acquired from the Braves for Mark Teixeria
Neftali Feliz - same as Andrus
Mike Napoli - 3rd organization, was originally a 17 round draft pick.
Ian Kinsler - another 17th round draft pick, and not originally recruited by any D1 programs.
C.J. Wilson - a 5th round pick

So, lucky or good?
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:08 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Anybody out there watching the World Series? Any series without the Yanks or Sox is fine with me. We've had some good games so far and I think it will go 7.

These are two good teams. The Cards got hot at the right time. But the Rangers are in consecutive series now. What is interesting to me is how the Rangers were built. I don't know if they were lucky or good. Consider the following key players:

Josh Hamilton - Overcame his demons, but Texas is his 4th organization and went through the rule 5 draft.
Nelson Cruz - traded 3 times and has made well under $1 million per season until this year.
Elvis Andrus - Was one of the "prospects" acquired from the Braves for Mark Teixeria
Neftali Feliz - same as Andrus
Mike Napoli - 3rd organization, was originally a 17 round draft pick.
Ian Kinsler - another 17th round draft pick, and not originally recruited by any D1 programs.
C.J. Wilson - a 5th round pick

So, lucky or good?


I personally usually favor the team that won their division over a wild card team unless it's one of my favorite teams (i.e. Indians or Braves) or the other team is on my hated teams list (i.e. Yankees or Dodgers). Then I go with the team which has gone the longest since they won it. Go Rangers.

Not only are Feliz and Andrus from the Teixera deal but so is Matt Harrison. The Braves got fleeced in that deal. Add insult to injury and all the Braves got for Tex was Casey Kotchman and a AA pitcher who is now 27 years old and hasn't pitched in the show yet.

Interesting how the Rangers were built but 17th round guys don't always make it let alone make it to the level of Napoli and Kinsler.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:14 am

Building a team is done using one of four methods:

1. Draft and develop: costs little, takes the longest time & offers very poor hit rates, i.e. ML'ers
2. International free agent signings: costs little, takes slightly less time & offers very poor hit rates..
3. Trades: costs more, takes much less time and offers fair to good hit rates
4. ML Free Agent Signings: costs the most, hit rates are very good, luck (health) is always a question

As much as people looked at & praised the Bartolo Colon trade that returned Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips, there will be equal praise for the Rangers acquisition of Neftali Feliz, Elvis Andrus, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Matt Harrison and Beau Jones for Ron Mayhay & two months of Mark Teixeira. FWIW, it should be noted that Salty was considered the key player in the trade coming back to the Rangers..

..and yes.. the Rangers relied on the skill and experience of their player development area to get lucky... :s_thumbsup
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:06 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Building a team is done using one of four methods:

1. Draft and develop: costs little, takes the longest time & offers very poor hit rates, i.e. ML'ers
2. International free agent signings: costs little, takes slightly less time & offers very poor hit rates..
3. Trades: costs more, takes much less time and offers fair to good hit rates
4. ML Free Agent Signings: costs the most, hit rates are very good, luck (health) is always a question



1. College players take 1-3 years to develop- JC's 2-5 years - HS - 3-6 years
2. International Free Agents takes longer depending on the International Market but unless you are signing a Japanese MLer you are looking at 4-6 years to develop a ML talent
3. Trades - it takes something to get something and with the Pom & White trade we are low on quality trading chips (assuming we need to keep Chiz, Santana, and Kip)
4. ML Free Agents - in this market (Cleveland) this is only a solution to finish off a contender not to build one. Even then building a contender has mixed results. You also run the risks of signing someone for a longer term than they really are valuable for (See Derek Lowe's contract in Atlanta or Carlos Lee's in Houston)
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:56 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Building a team is done using one of four methods:

1. Draft and develop: costs little, takes the longest time & offers very poor hit rates, i.e. ML'ers
2. International free agent signings: costs little, takes slightly less time & offers very poor hit rates..
3. Trades: costs more, takes much less time and offers fair to good hit rates
4. ML Free Agent Signings: costs the most, hit rates are very good, luck (health) is always a question



1. College players take 1-3 years to develop- JC's 2-5 years - HS - 3-6 years
2. International Free Agents takes longer depending on the International Market but unless you are signing a Japanese MLer you are looking at 4-6 years to develop a ML talent
3. Trades - it takes something to get something and with the Pom & White trade we are low on quality trading chips (assuming we need to keep Chiz, Santana, and Kip)
4. ML Free Agents - in this market (Cleveland) this is only a solution to finish off a contender not to build one. Even then building a contender has mixed results. You also run the risks of signing someone for a longer term than they really are valuable for (See Derek Lowe's contract in Atlanta or Carlos Lee's in Houston)


-w/r to international free agents.. assume all of them.. including posted asian's (like Yu Darvish might be)
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:59 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Building a team is done using one of four methods:

1. Draft and develop: costs little, takes the longest time & offers very poor hit rates, i.e. ML'ers
2. International free agent signings: costs little, takes slightly less time & offers very poor hit rates..
3. Trades: costs more, takes much less time and offers fair to good hit rates
4. ML Free Agent Signings: costs the most, hit rates are very good, luck (health) is always a question



1. College players take 1-3 years to develop- JC's 2-5 years - HS - 3-6 years
2. International Free Agents takes longer depending on the International Market but unless you are signing a Japanese MLer you are looking at 4-6 years to develop a ML talent
3. Trades - it takes something to get something and with the Pom & White trade we are low on quality trading chips (assuming we need to keep Chiz, Santana, and Kip)
4. ML Free Agents - in this market (Cleveland) this is only a solution to finish off a contender not to build one. Even then building a contender has mixed results. You also run the risks of signing someone for a longer term than they really are valuable for (See Derek Lowe's contract in Atlanta or Carlos Lee's in Houston)


-w/r to international free agents.. assume all of them.. including posted asian's (like Yu Darvish might be)



But that really isn't "costs little" if you refer to the Japanese market. They cost and in some cases cost a lot just to be able to negotiate. The other markets where guys are signed at 16-18 years of age is "costs little" and those guys are not very fast in development time.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:31 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Building a team is done using one of four methods:

1. Draft and develop: costs little, takes the longest time & offers very poor hit rates, i.e. ML'ers
2. International free agent signings: costs little, takes slightly less time & offers very poor hit rates..
3. Trades: costs more, takes much less time and offers fair to good hit rates
4. ML Free Agent Signings: costs the most, hit rates are very good, luck (health) is always a question



1. College players take 1-3 years to develop- JC's 2-5 years - HS - 3-6 years
2. International Free Agents takes longer depending on the International Market but unless you are signing a Japanese MLer you are looking at 4-6 years to develop a ML talent
3. Trades - it takes something to get something and with the Pom & White trade we are low on quality trading chips (assuming we need to keep Chiz, Santana, and Kip)
4. ML Free Agents - in this market (Cleveland) this is only a solution to finish off a contender not to build one. Even then building a contender has mixed results. You also run the risks of signing someone for a longer term than they really are valuable for (See Derek Lowe's contract in Atlanta or Carlos Lee's in Houston)


-w/r to international free agents.. assume all of them.. including posted asian's (like Yu Darvish might be)



But that really isn't "costs little" if you refer to the Japanese market. They cost and in some cases cost a lot just to be able to negotiate. The other markets where guys are signed at 16-18 years of age is "costs little" and those guys are not very fast in development time.


w/r to "costs little", signing bonuses for a handful of international free agents are very high ( does anyone think Daisuke Matsuzaka was worth $ 102 MM over the time he was with the Red Sox?), most aren't more expensive than middle round draft picks.. those same 'expensive' IFA signings take a little less time to get to the ML Level, but most are not much different that normal draft choices..

Now, do you want to pick at lower level minor league players acquired in trades and their time/cost too?..
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:56 am

I'm impressed with how Ron Washington has made the decisions during the series. I had never thought much about his ability due to the fact that the Rangers can overwhelm the other teams with offense. Last night, 3 IW to Pujols could have come back to hurt. But it didn't. Washington wasn't going to let Pujols beat him that night. Somebody else could have, but they didn't.

I think LaRussa blaming a communication error for the bullpen mix up is BS. There are plenty of ways to stall a game to wait for a pitcher to warm up. Especially in something as important as a World Series game.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:39 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I'm impressed with how Ron Washington has made the decisions during the series. I had never thought much about his ability due to the fact that the Rangers can overwhelm the other teams with offense. Last night, 3 IW to Pujols could have come back to hurt. But it didn't. Washington wasn't going to let Pujols beat him that night. Somebody else could have, but they didn't.

I think LaRussa blaming a communication error for the bullpen mix up is BS. There are plenty of ways to stall a game to wait for a pitcher to warm up. Especially in something as important as a World Series game.


Haven't been overly impressed with either manager this series. Washington did make some good ones though last game. Some terrible baserunning/decisions by the Cards helped a lot, but agree walking Pujols was smart (ha, 3 HRs in a game will wise you up fast). LaRussa...yeah haven't understood his bullpen management. And agree on the bullpen mixup. First off how the hell does Jason Motte get confused with Lance Lynn? I don't care how much noise there is.


Also....is that the same Derek Lilliquist that pitched for the Indians in the early 90s? Haven't heard that name in a while.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby daingean » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:58 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:I'm impressed with how Ron Washington has made the decisions during the series. I had never thought much about his ability due to the fact that the Rangers can overwhelm the other teams with offense. Last night, 3 IW to Pujols could have come back to hurt. But it didn't. Washington wasn't going to let Pujols beat him that night. Somebody else could have, but they didn't.

I think LaRussa blaming a communication error for the bullpen mix up is BS. There are plenty of ways to stall a game to wait for a pitcher to warm up. Especially in something as important as a World Series game.


Haven't been overly impressed with either manager this series. Washington did make some good ones though last game. Some terrible baserunning/decisions by the Cards helped a lot, but agree walking Pujols was smart (ha, 3 HRs in a game will wise you up fast). LaRussa...yeah haven't understood his bullpen management. And agree on the bullpen mixup. First off how the hell does Jason Motte get confused with Lance Lynn? I don't care how much noise there is.


Also....is that the same Derek Lilliquist that pitched for the Indians in the early 90s? Haven't heard that name in a while.


Same Derek Lilliquist.....by the way Leo Mazzone had good things to say about Lilli on the radio this morning. Also said they had a set of visual signs used in cases where the noise was so loud they couldn't hear the phone. Now a days with texting and stuff that should not happen.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:07 am

When did the Rangers sign Helen Keller to a contract to play right field? Oh, wait... that was Nelson Cruz.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:41 am

Incredible game.. simply incredible.. all the drama and excitement that anyone could dream of.. The Legend of David Freese continues to grow.. that guy is going to be a GOD if St Louis can pull off a miracle in game 7. Ron Washington needs to drink more coffee.. lol..
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:51 am

I really feel bad for the Rangers and their fans this morning. I was having so many flashbacks to 1997. I know what it's like to have been there, done that. BTW, I still think the Indians were supposed to win that game. They had too much karma from all the Indians fans both living and dead. The Marlins? C'mon. Makes you wish you had a flux capacitor to change things. :sad:

Anyway, maybe Feliz was too young for that situation. But did Nelson Cruz even run hard after that fly ball? Even Shelly Duncan would have at least jumped or dove for it.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:27 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:I really feel bad for the Rangers and their fans this morning. I was having so many flashbacks to 1997. I know what it's like to have been there, done that. BTW, I still think the Indians were supposed to win that game. They had too much karma from all the Indians fans both living and dead. The Marlins? C'mon. Makes you wish you had a flux capacitor to change things. :sad:

Anyway, maybe Feliz was too young for that situation. But did Nelson Cruz even run hard after that fly ball? Even Shelly Duncan would have at least jumped or dove for it.


I thought there were a couple of issues with the ball over Cruz's head.. one, he certainly didn't get back to the fence as quickly as he could making what could have been a play, really difficult. The Rangers were in that infernal "no doubles defense, so he was already back at least five steps from his normal spot.. a lot of good it did them. TBH..the ball was a liner that was hit right at him, but was slicing away from him. Tracking that kind of missile isn't the easiest, but, that's why he's in the big leagues. The second issue was the replacement of Craig Gentry with Josh Hamilton in CF. Fundamental defense on that play requires the CF'er to back up the RF'er by heading for a position in line with second base and 15 - 20 steps from the location where the ball is hit. Hamilton, with the sports hernia/groin issue.. was a spectator. The misplay by Cruz was compounded by not having the play backed up allowing Berkman to score all the way from first base on a hard hit liner.
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Re: World Series Comments

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:54 am

Well, congratulations to the Cardinals, 2011 World Champs. :clapping: They may have been wild cards. but you can't say they backed in; beating the Phillies, Brewers, and Rangers. There may be better offensive clubs. There may be better pitching staffs. But they sure know how to play hard for the whole 27 outs.

The Cards won 90 regular season games. The Indians won 80. That's not a huge difference. One less error, one less walk, one more hit dropping in can make the difference. But it does make a difference which games you win, and who you beat. We stunk in the last month against the Tigers. If we could have got hot,,,,

Oh well, only about 4 months till spring training.
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