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2011-2013: Window of contention?

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2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby indians1 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:17 pm

We were told that the Ubaldo trade was made because the core of players that we have now will be FA's after 2013,
sizemore, hafner, chris perez, asdrubal, choo, masterson (he may be here until 2014)...

Did we judge right that we had a core of talent that could consistently compete over the next 2 years?

sizemore and hafner are probably done. chris perez has been better as of late but there are alot of inconsistencies there.

I don't think it is being too critical to wonder if these years were aberrations for masterson and cabrera. They have had career/breakout seasons and we have to hope cabrera can hit us 15-20 HR's and hit .280 the next couple of seasons. Choo has been awful this year and wasn't really that good until late august last year. The indians track record of players as they approach 30 is not good.

I applaud the indians FO for making a gutsy move of trading for a supposed FOR pitcher, but for two guys that will be 23 next year and could both be up in the majors could end up being a disaster for this organization. This is a decision you can't afford to be wrong on. They better fix ubaldo.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby ironmike » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:29 am

What exactly is there to fix regarding Ubaldo?
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:53 am

indians1 wrote: They better fix ubaldo.


This is getting ridiculous.

Ubaldo has actually been pretty damn good for us so far:

10.10 K/9
3.07 BB/9
4.17 FIP
3.25 xFIP (this is a great indicator)
4.11 tERA
3.03 SIERA

Reasons why his ERA has been high:

.333 babip vs. .286 career mark
16.3% HR/FB vs. 8% career mark

Other than that he looks absolutely fine and like the TOR arm we traded for. Sure, he'll battle some command issues every now and then with his unusual delivery, but overall I have a lot of faith in him going forward (if he stays healthy of course, which seems to be hard on this indians team).
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:25 am

The guys that were traded to the Rockies for Ubaldo, Alex White and Drew Pomeranz could be more like what the Indians currently have in the minors and in the starting rotation in Cleveland.. What they will become is:

-A projection
-A guess

Pretty good guesses, too. So far, Alex White has started three times for the Rockies.. pitched 17 innings, given up 14 earned runs and ten walks.. it's a small sampling.. In Alex White's three starts for the Indians earlier this year, he pitched 18 inning, gave up 7 earned runs and ten walks (the start where he hurt his finger, 3 IP, 2 Runs, 3 BB's was excluded...for obvious reasons). In short.. Alex White walks too many batters, and, most troubling, gives up too many home runs (9 in 35IP). That's a bunch..

Drew Pomeranz gets his first ML start Sunday. While he has had stellar MiLB stats, the "leap" to the ML Level is ginormous. Here's hoping he does very well in his first ML outing.. If he doesn't, the already 'nervous' Rockies fan base, who were absolutely miffed that the Rockies got nothing but minor league players for an ace, will be out for blood... yeah! that's right !! The Rockies fans think they got screwed so far & part of the reason why the Rockies are rushing Drew Pomeranz to the ML's for a start or three...

Funny how the perception of the same event (the Ubaldo Trade) can be so drastically different based solely on geography...

W/R to Ubaldo, it's all a matter of repetitions.. he has such a funky delivery that conventional 'corrections' don't apply. The best thing that could possibly be done.. would be to leave him alone & take away one of his pitches so he can focus on the four or five remaining. Which one?.. IDK.. the feel pitches are un-hittable (Slider/Split) when he's in a good groove. The fastballs are absolutely needed.... so, which one?.. pick one..

Ubaldo's should come to spring training with a fresh mindset and in full health. That's the best that can happen with him..... The rest, will take care of itself..
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:54 am

I don't think it is being too critical to wonder if these years were aberrations for masterson and cabrera.


I think Masterson will be a solid 3 at worst so that is fine. But I agree on Cabrera. His OBP is down to 333 and who knows if the power was just a fluke year. At that point he just becomes an average SS. Santana is really the only hitter you can count on to produce going forward.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:06 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
I don't think it is being too critical to wonder if these years were aberrations for masterson and cabrera.


I think Masterson will be a solid 3 at worst so that is fine. But I agree on Cabrera. His OBP is down to 333 and who knows if the power was just a fluke year. At that point he just becomes an average SS. Santana is really the only hitter you can count on to produce going forward.


I would put Choo in the same category as Santana. Choo has shown he can produce in previous years - a slow start and a broken wrist really hurt his game. Santana's game is maturing but I think the "learning the major league catching" game is hampering his advancement at the plate. Also Kipnis has the potential to be an above average to elite bat (my guess is closer to above average but we will see).
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:39 am

daingean wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:
I don't think it is being too critical to wonder if these years were aberrations for masterson and cabrera.


I think Masterson will be a solid 3 at worst so that is fine. But I agree on Cabrera. His OBP is down to 333 and who knows if the power was just a fluke year. At that point he just becomes an average SS. Santana is really the only hitter you can count on to produce going forward.


I would put Choo in the same category as Santana. Choo has shown he can produce in previous years - a slow start and a broken wrist really hurt his game. Santana's game is maturing but I think the "learning the major league catching" game is hampering his advancement at the plate. Also Kipnis has the potential to be an above average to elite bat (my guess is closer to above average but we will see).


Yeah agree on Choo when healthy. Kipnis could really make this team legit next year. Have to wonder if they are seriously considering not picking up Sizemores option
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby timdav » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:47 am

The great start the Tribe had this season, has tricked us all into thinking..."what if?" (sorry Tribe marketing department). We were fooled into thinking this team had finally gotten really close, and were only a piece or two away.

Improvements certainly have been made. But, the Indians, sadly, still have a lot of holes. And, more holes than can be filled by one trade. (Heck, make one big trade, fill one hole with an excellent player, how many new holes have you opened? No real depth makes big trades difficult to impossible, and star free agents rarely come to smaller markets).

Bottom line for Cleveland is the same as it is for most teams....economics force you to do an excellent job of growing your core team from within your own minor league organization.

The Tribe for sure has a few promising, bright spots. But, still many holes.

Putting together a team from scratch in a mid-revenue baseball market like Cleveland isn't easy. You almost have to have the planets align and be right on almost everything....which rarely happens for any team.

Making progress? For sure. Are we even close yet (to being legitimate world series contenders): ahhhhh...sadly, nope.

Last winter a guy and at work asked me how long did I think it'll be before the Indians can be realistic world series contenders. I then said "about 5 years, if they're lucky". I still think that's a good guess. Wish I was wrong.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:09 pm

timdav wrote:The great start the Tribe had this season, has tricked us all into thinking..."what if?" (sorry Tribe marketing department). We were fooled into thinking this team had finally gotten really close, and were only a piece or two away.

Improvements certainly have been made. But, the Indians, sadly, still have a lot of holes. And, more holes than can be filled by one trade. (Heck, make one big trade, fill one hole with an excellent player, how many new holes have you opened? No real depth makes big trades difficult to impossible, and star free agents rarely come to smaller markets).

Bottom line for Cleveland is the same as it is for most teams....economics force you to do an excellent job of growing your core team from within your own minor league organization.

The Tribe for sure has a few promising, bright spots. But, still many holes.

Putting together a team from scratch in a mid-revenue baseball market like Cleveland isn't easy. You almost have to have the planets align and be right on almost everything....which rarely happens for any team.

Making progress? For sure. Are we even close yet (to being legitimate world series contenders): ahhhhh...sadly, nope.

Last winter a guy and at work asked me how long did I think it'll be before the Indians can be realistic world series contenders. I then said "about 5 years, if they're lucky". I still think that's a good guess. Wish I was wrong.


I have to disagree with your pessimism. This team plays in a division which is winnable. Once in the playoffs they have a chance. Could they win the AL East with the Yankees and Red Sox spending 3-6 times more on player salaries? not unless the Big Guy above was really smiling down on them but in this division it is possible. Expect improved offense from Kipnis, Santana and Chiz in the next few years. The rotation should be solid especially at the top with Masterson/Ubaldo/Tomlin. The bullpen is strong (which I think wins more games in this day and age than at anytime before in baseball). Do they need a piece or 2? Yes but that piece does not have to be the stud everyone thinks....2 pieces that are as a whole fills a needed hole in the team (i.e. a platoon 1B/OF combo). Am I saying we will win it next year? No but I am saying we have a real chance and if we didn't lose so many to injuries this year we may have been in it till the end this year. For the most part, I like the team we can project to take the field next April but it does need the RH run producer. Hopefully, the last 2 drafts produce the pieces that can make this team keep the window open a few extra years.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:51 pm

timdav wrote:The great start the Tribe had this season, has tricked us all into thinking..."what if?" (sorry Tribe marketing department). We were fooled into thinking this team had finally gotten really close, and were only a piece or two away.


While the great start certainly helped the Tribe get to where they are....one could easily point out that if you take out just the month of June (only 27 games vs the hot 45 game start), the Tribe is actually 60-53 and playing .531 ball. That would play out to 86 wins.

Tribe has been over .500 for 3 of the 6 months, were even over .500 in August. Injuries have really taken their toll. If the Tribe can get some luck on health and the young guys can get some consistency...this club IMO can play like they did outside of June and push for 85-90 wins easily next year.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:42 pm

Everybody move in. There will be plenty of people jumping on the Indians bandwagon for 2012. :friends: They will be contenders. Hell, we were contenders in 2011 with a roster made up primarily of the Columbus Clippers. By the laws of probability there will be less injuries in 2012.

Here's a simple game to play. Take the players on the roster, and ask a simple question. Are their careers on the way up, or the way down? Not how good they will be, but will they be getting better at all.

Here's my list: UP - Pitchers Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin, Carmona (he' only 28), Huff, Gomez, Sipp, Smith, Pestano, Herrmann, Judy, Hagadone
Position Players: Laporta (sorry haters), Kipnis, Donald, Chisenhall, Phelps, Santana, Marson, Brantley, Carrera

DOWN: Pitchers Durbin, R. Perez
Position Players: Hannahan, Thome, Duncan

EVEN: C. Perez (this may have been his career year), A. Cabrera (I don't think ACab will get any better, but should sustain level as long as he is here.) Choo (again, if he could repeat 2010 season stats that would be fine). Hafner (surprise. I predict 2012 will be exactly like 2011 - some hot streaks mixed in with 2-3 trips to the DL).

I did not include Sizemore or Fukudome because they will not be here in 2012.

Now consider the Tigers. Do you think Verlander will repeat a career year? Can VMart, Peralta, and MCab ALL repeat what they did this season?

The Indians were contenders in 2011 because they were so balanced. We did not rely on any one player that had a hot streak or career year. Everybody contributed, including the Columbus Clippers!
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby go_tribe » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:54 pm

This team is clearly the most talented in the weak division, as evidenced by the first 2 months when healthy, and just the fact that they hung in this long against a team that suffered absolutely no injuries.

2012 is most def a year that we can win the WS, we don't have that many holes to fill other than a decent hitting RH bat. What people seem to be forgetting is that pitching wins championships, bottom line. Ubaldo, Masterson and Carmona can get us that championship. Everyone is so worked up about the hitting, but offense comes from unexpected places in October.

If healthy, the guys we have now in the lineup are more than capable of being a top 5 offensive team next year, which is why I think the division race will be over by august in 2012.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:32 pm

It's not being tricked when what you are hoping for falls short.. it's baseball... The Indians marketing department is there to generate interest in the product. They were quite successful in getting people to thing.. "what if"..

It's never a bad idea to hope.. even if it's just:

A wee bit of a hope for the Indians...

'Twas the night after the Tigers series they say, when all through the Northcoast,
Indian fans were still stirring from the double sweeping, we're toast.
Chief Wahoo Headresses were hung in third place for this nearly completed year,
Now the 2012 hope is the ChiSox, Twins & Tigers will be a view from the rear

Our GM was nestled all snug with his blackberry,
While visions of power bullpen arms danced oh so merry;
And Mark in his Slider Slippers, and Mr Dolan taking a nap,
They're both so run-down from all this Paul Hoynsie crap

When over at Progressive there arose such a clatter,
Did Grady's option get picked up, is that what's the matter?
Away to Carnegie & Ontario I flew like a flash,
A box seat ticket was given for five dollars in cash;
The left field bleachers, being readied for Snow Days,
Gives Chris Antonetti more cash for him and his plays..

When, what to our wondering eyes should appear
But John Adams and his ugly wife must be near
With a little pound pound this maestro, so lively with knack,
I knew in a moment my ear plugs, I did lack

More rapid than pigeons new relievers they came,
Manny whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;
"Now Perez now Vinnie now Smitty and Raffy
On Herrman, on Tony, on Hagadone, and don't forget Judy
Will Huff last as the # 5 Starter, A committee the call?
Is JeanMar going to be in that spot by the fall!"

No more bridge for our Indians, the limit is the sky
Bargain basement-bought team full of All-Stars, w/ Ubaldo a Cy?
With Carlos at first base & Lonnie on the corner at third
Grady with ladies-uh-ga-ga back in the field, injuries cured for this herd

And then, in a twinkling, he strolled to the mound,
The prancing and pawing of this hard-throwing hound,
Laying his fingers astride of the seam,
No more bullpen for Masterson, he's completed his dream
He threw out his hand, tight belly twisting around,
Down toward home plate, the ball took off with a bound;

He spoke not a word, just continued to work,
He went into his windup; didn't act like a jerk,
His eyes—how they twinkled! His dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!

He threw like the Staff Ace, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment, he's got that old kick;
His heater’s mid-nineties, the curve ball has bite,
Let’s mark him down for a 'dubya' as all is now right!

And nice to see Tomlin looking so fit and trim
His elbow is now sound from many days in the gym
Marson showed up early, Brantley looks ready to play
Even Asdrubal is strong and healthy today

Living up to the hype, The Kipper hit many balls high,
Donald grinded away, and Fukudome slugged line drives;
Hannahan was a vacuum, Shelly hopes to make a home left,
Catching will be no problem, as Carlos is deft;
PRONK had the old stroke back, when he hit ‘em they streaked ,
They all batted around, even even little Zeke!!

The crowd sprang to their feet, to the team gave a whistle,
Grady circled the bases, Masterson threw another missile;
Next year is upon us and our Wahoos are dreamin,
"We've got Lindor and Howard, pennant fever starts with believin !!"

...with apologies to Clement Clarke Moore and Henry Livingston, Jr.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:23 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Everybody move in. There will be plenty of people jumping on the Indians bandwagon for 2012. :friends: They will be contenders. Hell, we were contenders in 2011 with a roster made up primarily of the Columbus Clippers. By the laws of probability there will be less injuries in 2012.

Here's a simple game to play. Take the players on the roster, and ask a simple question. Are their careers on the way up, or the way down? Not how good they will be, but will they be getting better at all.

Here's my list: UP - Pitchers Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin, Carmona (he' only 28), Huff, Gomez, Sipp, Smith, Pestano, Herrmann, Judy, Hagadone
Position Players: Laporta (sorry haters), Kipnis, Donald, Chisenhall, Phelps, Santana, Marson, Brantley, Carrera

DOWN: Pitchers Durbin, R. Perez
Position Players: Hannahan, Thome, Duncan

EVEN: C. Perez (this may have been his career year), A. Cabrera (I don't think ACab will get any better, but should sustain level as long as he is here.) Choo (again, if he could repeat 2010 season stats that would be fine). Hafner (surprise. I predict 2012 will be exactly like 2011 - some hot streaks mixed in with 2-3 trips to the DL).

I did not include Sizemore or Fukudome because they will not be here in 2012.

Now consider the Tigers. Do you think Verlander will repeat a career year? Can VMart, Peralta, and MCab ALL repeat what they did this season?

The Indians were contenders in 2011 because they were so balanced. We did not rely on any one player that had a hot streak or career year. Everybody contributed, including the Columbus Clippers!


1. I don't see LaPorta getting a free pass next year. In fact, I think the Tribe will bring in competition from the FA market (ala a Hannahan/Duncan/Kearns signings of the last 2 years) plus from Beau Mills (I think the Nick Johnson ship has sailed). He could be around next year. Being the predominant starter at 1B will be up to him.

2. A-Cab could improve if the team progresses around him. Yes this is a career year but when guys are on-base more consistently in front of you and guys are hitting behind you, some guys produce even more. I think A-Cab is in that game.

Edit: There is no way the Tribe can carry both Hafner and Thome on the same roster 25 man roster. Neither can play a position.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby timdav » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:45 pm

While I certainly wish & hope our Cleveland Indians will win a world series before most of us over 40 are dead....I wouldn't say my attitude about the 2011+ Tribe is negative....I think it's as realistic as I'm able to make it.

I don't think the current Indians team is bad. Sure, there are positives. And, due to this year's attendance bump the Tribe as a business can afford to spend some more money on free agents and/or taking on salary for a quality hitter (preferably right-handed). Our minor league organization is better. And, of course, the AL Central is a very winnable division.

While the popular expression "just get to the playoffs and anything can happen" is technically true....in most years, just getting to the division series most of the time doesn't mean a team is a truly legitimate World Series contender, and most don't go on to win it all due to the limited amount of talent on such teams.

My point: I'd LOVE to see our Tribe win it all. But, I've followed baseball long enough, and have talked to writers, scouts, and a couple major league managers over the years and what I've learned is....in a mid-revenue market (like 20 to 25 of the big league teams)....the path to winning a World Series ring is a very tough one.

Team ownership, because their revenues are so much smaller than the top 5 or 6 teams, simply has to worry first about making at least a little profit, or else they end up going bankrupt. Then, the desire to win comes next. Again, it's tough to put together a team that's a legitimate World Series contender for 20-25 of the markets with so many limitations.

Some day soon I hope one season everything works just right...the planets align, and we're watching a November parade down Euclid Avneue. I'll be one of the happy, overjoyed old dudes with a huge smile on my face...and probably tears in my eyes.

Realistically...that's not likely to happen in the next few years.
Last edited by timdav on Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:52 pm

daingean wrote:1. I don't see LaPorta getting a free pass next year. In fact, I think the Tribe will bring in competition from the FA market (ala a Hannahan/Duncan/Kearns signings of the last 2 years) plus from Beau Mills (I think the Nick Johnson ship has sailed). He could be around next year. Being the predominant starter at 1B will be up to him.

2. A-Cab could improve if the team progresses around him. Yes this is a career year but when guys are on-base more consistently in front of you and guys are hitting behind you, some guys produce even more. I think A-Cab is in that game.

Edit: There is no way the Tribe can carry both Hafner and Thome on the same roster 25 man roster. Neither can play a position.


I agree on adding someone to push LaPorta and be insurance.

As far as Cabrera...meh, was it really a career year? He's on pace for a 3.2 WARP this year...was 3.8 in 2009. I'd personally rather have the 2009 Cabrera than the 2011 Cabrera. WAR in 2009 was 3.7 (BR) and is 3.6 this year. Fangraphs does like him more this year as far as WAR but his wOBA is worse this year. Power-wise it's been a career year of sorts, but overall....not his best.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:42 pm

only you Hermie would still dis (in yr own way) Acab after his all-star year... I really hope the indians do the exact opposite of what you suggest for the most part.... Your consistent yes/but responses get really annoying, not quite has grating as dnosco's post were but.... guess we need a new "leader"...... For me on closer inspection, all your clouds aren't lined with silver but with lead.....Go ahead and fire back if you feel the need, just don't put words in my mouth which is definitely your thing...
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 pm

I agree somewhat with Hermie on Acab.

Sure he's been very good this year and the power numbers are encouraging, but his plate discipline has taken a step back and with his recent slump, his numbers start looking a little more pedestrian.

That said, he has been carrying our offense the entire year bascially and I really like how he's developed as a leader on the field (loved his argument with Santana). Hopefully he can combine 09 and 11 next season and become even better.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:16 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
As far as Cabrera...meh, was it really a career year? He's on pace for a 3.2 WARP this year...was 3.8 in 2009. I'd personally rather have the 2009 Cabrera than the 2011 Cabrera. WAR in 2009 was 3.7 (BR) and is 3.6 this year. Fangraphs does like him more this year as far as WAR but his wOBA is worse this year. Power-wise it's been a career year of sorts, but overall....not his best.


I understand your point but he was the rock in this line up for a majority of the season. If he had the same offense around him that was there in 2009 his WAR would be higher as he would be hitting more with runners on. You can pretty much use statistics to make any argument you wish. I personally would take the 2011 ACab (I know he has tailed off a bit as of late) but for the most part he's been in there every day. And he has solidified an ever-changing defense. To have a career year with the offense he's had around him leads me to believe he can get better.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:09 am

While Cabrera has certainly had a nice season.....his 2009 year is still his "best" season so far. That's not a knock on his 2011 year, but while the homers have been impressive, every other area of his offensive game has taken a step back this year. If the homers tick back a little next season, he will need that plate discipline to return some to offset the loss.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:26 am

Acta was quoted as saying Cabrera sacrificed batting average for power and run production. With Choo having an off year and also spending time on the DL, with Grady out most of the year, and with Hafner reduced to a singles hitter when healthy, there was a need for Droobs to make up some of the missing power.

If we get better health and production from Choo next year I think Asdrubal will return to being a .300 hitter with 10 HRs from the #2 spot in the batting order. Although...chicks dig the long ball. Once you start hitting them it's tough to go back.

I really wouldn't describe Carmona or Ubaldo as players whose careers are on the way up. Ubaldo has fallen off dramatically since the first half of 2010. Carmona has an ERA over 5.00. His performance has been all over the place since he came up. He's an All-Star one year and getting sent to Arizona the next.

However, I agree we don't have any star players in decline and we have a number of emerging players like Brantley, Kipnis, Chisenhall, and Santana whose curves are still trending up. I think Droobs, Hannahan, Tomlin, Masterson, and Choo are pretty much maxed out. We should get the same numbers from Pronk next year as we have the last two. Jimenez is the wild card, and we need someone to nail down the 5th starter job between Huff, Gomez, McAllister, and Barnes.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:16 pm

When you look at Ubaldo's ERA I can see why people think he's on the downswing...

But when you look past that he's actually been unlucky and not much worse than in previous years. His xFIP is actually lthe lowest it's ever been. His FIP has jumped up this year but is not terrible. He's been hurt by a big jump in his BABIP and HR rate (more than doubled) and drop in his LOB%. If these three come back to his career norms then he should be the pitcher he was in Colorado if not better.

The one thing that does worry me is his groundball rate has gone down again. He need to get that back up some. Maybe he can't and he's going to continue to decline, so we'll see I guess. I defiintely expect him to be better next year with a full year in the same league and a (hopefully) healthy start to the year.

We saw what being hurt in spring training/beginning of the year can do to even the best pitchers. Cliff Lee was hurt early on in 2007 and just never got going. He's gets healthy and all of sudden he's lights out in 2008. Not saying Ubaldo is Lee but just pointing out how early season injuries to a pitcher can have snowball effects in a season.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:17 pm

TonyIPI wrote:While Cabrera has certainly had a nice season.....his 2009 year is still his "best" season so far. That's not a knock on his 2011 year, but while the homers have been impressive, every other area of his offensive game has taken a step back this year. If the homers tick back a little next season, he will need that plate discipline to return some to offset the loss.


From day 1, Acab was the one player in the lineup that provided some offense. It wasn't designed that way, but one by one, other players became injured or had disappointing offensive seasons. The pressure of being the only reliable bat in the lineup eventually wore him down. Especially in a pennant race and playing a position like SS.
I hope this shows the FO that he is a great piece to have, but should not be the centerpiece next season.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:29 pm

Hermie13 wrote:When you look at Ubaldo's ERA I can see why people think he's on the downswing...

But when you look past that he's actually been unlucky and not much worse than in previous years. His xFIP is actually lthe lowest it's ever been. His FIP has jumped up this year but is not terrible. He's been hurt by a big jump in his BABIP and HR rate (more than doubled) and drop in his LOB%. If these three come back to his career norms then he should be the pitcher he was in Colorado if not better.


I agree that Ubaldo has been unlucky and is pitching better than the numbers suggest. But, the one thing I have to make not of is sometimes you just can't look at these advanced stats verbatim. Do the numbers show he is unlucky? Or merely just less effective?

That's the question that often gets lost when looking at the advanced numbers. Maybe his unluckiness is the result of the 2-4 MPH drop on his average fastball.....and if true, that is not necessarily easy "luck" to change.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:16 pm

Hermie13 wrote:The one thing that does worry me is his groundball rate has gone down again. He need to get that back up some. Maybe he can't and he's going to continue to decline, so we'll see I guess. I defiintely expect him to be better next year with a full year in the same league and a (hopefully) healthy start to the year.

He's still definitely a groundball pitcher (GB/FB of 0.88... MLB avg. is 0.82). The real question is what's leading to the decreasing trend, and is that really a problem? I don't know one way or the other, but as anyone who's watched Fausto Carmona knows, having a high ground ball rate doesn't directly correlate to success.

I haven't seen anything that breaks down Ubaldo's usage of the 4-seamer vs. the 2-seamer, but obviously the 4-seamer leads to more fly balls. Another explanation might be that he throws his change-up quite a bit more than he used to, replacing a lot of sliders he threw in the past, which in most cases will translate to fewer grounders. So the question that would leave me with is whether he's having more success with the change-up or the slider. I haven't seen enough of him to say, although I'd assume he's using the pitch he's most comfortable with more often, but it's something to keep an eye on.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:48 am

As Antonetti pointed out, we lost our starting outfield, second baseman, third baseman, DH, and 40% of our rotation to injury, yet we're still playing .500 ball with 20 games left. Better luck with injuries next year and this team will be right there.

Also, having Jimenez the entire season in place of say, Carrasco/Huff/McAllister will be huge. Having Kipnis at 2nd base the entire season in place of OCab/Valbuena/Phelps will also be an upgrade. Even the bullpen could be better with either Judy, Hagadone, Putnam or CC Lee taking the places of Durbin and Herrmann. I also expect improvement from Brantley and Santana, who got their first extended taste of major league ball this season.

Grady will be a year removed from his microfracture surgery, so if he can come back and put up 400-450 plate appearances that would be a bonus.

I'm looking for 88-90 wins next year. It will be more difficult because I think KC and the Twins will be better. Ubaldo will be the key.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:32 am

Prosecutor wrote:As Antonetti pointed out, we lost our starting outfield, second baseman, third baseman, DH, and 40% of our rotation to injury, yet we're still playing .500 ball with 20 games left. Better luck with injuries next year and this team will be right there.

Also, having Jimenez the entire season in place of say, Carrasco/Huff/McAllister will be huge. Having Kipnis at 2nd base the entire season in place of OCab/Valbuena/Phelps will also be an upgrade. Even the bullpen could be better with either Judy, Hagadone, Putnam or CC Lee taking the places of Durbin and Herrmann. I also expect improvement from Brantley and Santana, who got their first extended taste of major league ball this season.

Grady will be a year removed from his microfracture surgery, so if he can come back and put up 400-450 plate appearances that would be a bonus.

I'm looking for 88-90 wins next year. It will be more difficult because I think KC and the Twins will be better. Ubaldo will be the key.


Wow thats optimistic. I can think of maybe 1 year in the last decade when the Indians GM wasnt complaining about injuries at the end of the year.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Edible14 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:30 pm

Anything you get out of Grady and Pronk next year is a bonus. Let's be realistic. There's no sense in counting on them to be healthy.

However, the offense SHOULD be just fine. ACab is a proven commodity. Choo should get back to the .300 hitter he was before the distractions and injuries this year (plus, he'll be looking to prove himself as he gets closer to free agency). Santana, Chis and Kipnis will all improve as they get more time against big league pitching. Brantley is a guy that is reliable enough already, and he might even improve some. 2B and 3B should be much more productive next year. Hopefully they can get some more production out of 1B and DH as well.

The pitching I think is the real concern, and it's the reason I really like the Ubaldo trade going forward. I'm not concerned about the offense. The lack of shutdown starters since the CC and Cliff Lee trades has been noticeable. Masterson hopefully can repeat what he's done this year for the next couple of years. Ubaldo is solid. Carmona is... shaky. Carrasco being hurt isn't great, but but this team has enough depth to find a replacement. Statistics dictate that Tomlin will probably regress, so you want to have somebody in case that happens. Huff, McAlister and Gomez are all potentially good for the 4/5 role, but we really need somebody to step up and be a #3 or higher. Carmona is the best shot at that right now. I'd also say that Hector Rondon could be that guy once he gets back on track next year. But being honest here, a rotation of Masterson/Jimenez/Carmona doesn't stack up that well against other playoff teams in 2012 and 2013. But it would certainly be a lot worse without Jimenez in there.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby timdav » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:53 pm

They say the right things when interviewed, but...it's obvious most of this team is tired....and guys up from AAA/AA are playing more innings than they ever have.

Sure hope the front office is successful in the off season acquiring a power hitter or high-average contact hitter, and maybe another veteran starter.

It's been a better season in '11 than any of us really expected, despite the fade.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:47 pm

Carmona is... shaky.


Fausto is 6-14 with a 5.18 ERA. Just a horrible season no matter how you slice it. When is this guy going to put it together? Where is that young 19-game winner from 2007? Did the league figure out that he only has one pitch?

The interesting thing about Carmona is that he was usually pretty good in spite of the bad numbers. He's started 28 games so far. Throw out his six worst starts, including the 10 ERs in 3 innings on Opening Day and the 7 ERs in 1.1 innings last week. In those six starts he gave up 45 ERs in 23 innings. The other 22 starts he had an ERA of 3.17. So in almost 80% of his starts he was pretty good. But when he was bad, he was abysmal. He's not one of those pitchers who can struggle through 6 innings giving up 4 runs and at least give you a chance to win when he doesn't have his best stuff. When he's not on, he gets murdered.

In those 22 starts where he gave up 50 earned runs, he only won 6 games. I think he was also a victim of poor run support like Masterson. Carmona actually pitched well in July and August. I think they'll bring him back, especially with Pomz, White and Carrasco out of the picture and now Tomlin has an arm injury.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:57 pm

Now that Carrasco is out for sure next year and Carmona being "shaky" I think you have to make a serious play for a good SP this off-season. Has to be the #1 priority now.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:21 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Now that Carrasco is out for sure next year and Carmona being "shaky" I think you have to make a serious play for a good SP this off-season. Has to be the #1 priority now.


i have to disagree. Surely between Carmona, Gomez, ZMac, Barnes and others, they can find an acceptable #5 starter internally. There are no bats internally though. Finding a bat(s) should be biggest priority.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:40 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Now that Carrasco is out for sure next year and Carmona being "shaky" I think you have to make a serious play for a good SP this off-season. Has to be the #1 priority now.


i have to disagree. Surely between Carmona, Gomez, ZMac, Barnes and others, they can find an acceptable #5 starter internally. There are no bats internally though. Finding a bat(s) should be biggest priority.


I agree with you Ghost.....a 5th starter is a luxury......they need a bat.....5th starters usually don't start come playoff time......get the bat....preferably a OF/1B combo.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:00 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Now that Carrasco is out for sure next year and Carmona being "shaky" I think you have to make a serious play for a good SP this off-season. Has to be the #1 priority now.


i have to disagree. Surely between Carmona, Gomez, ZMac, Barnes and others, they can find an acceptable #5 starter internally. There are no bats internally though. Finding a bat(s) should be biggest priority.


For me to be successful they will have to add a SP

1. Jimenez
2. Masterson
3. Carmona - already shaky
4. Tomlin - he should be the 5th starter
5. F.A/ Trade - there are solid FA options for a SP this off-season. Though listed as the 5th starter really needs be at least a solid 4...

I like our SP depth, but I feel trying to roll with Gomez (will eventually get a spot IMO) or Huff, McAllister to start the year would be a recipe for losing games.. Barnes I like, but needs more experience/healthy, same with Rondon. I also agree we need a RH bat badly and I hope that will get addressed but think a solid rotation (look what little ol' Fister has done in DET) will win more games. Our bullpen depth with be our strength pitching-wise next year again IMO.

As far as bats I agree we are thin. Neal, Mills, Goedert are about it...... Think we will gamble on a couple NRI types - (Kearns again) :lol: .......... Ideally they should sign/trade for a major RH bat. However - given their recent history, and in addition to the fact they totally failed to address this issue in the heat of play-off run, - I'm not holding my breath.....
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:31 pm

For the Indians to be successful, they just need to get and stay healthy. This applies to both position players as well as pitchers.

SP's is an area of depth that continues to get better:

-JeanMar appears to be getting it at the ML Level.. his last three starts have been spectacular.. As a Middle to Back of the Rotation Starter, he'd be fine..

-David Huff has made enough starts (8) during the second half of the season to be considered a pretty darn solid SP candidate. Huff's numbers don't always look that "great", but an ERA slightly over 3 (with a at least 5 of the 13 earned runs allowed being let in by the pen) and a developing confidence, he'll be just fine in the starting rotation.

That puts the Indians in a position of having 7 or 8 SP candidates going into 2012.. that's about where they need to be. That said, if an opportunity to add to the SP depth presents itself, the Indians would be wise to jump all over that.

what say you?
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:57 am

I, too, agree that 2012-2013 are the years where this cycle of talent will be most optimized. Perhaps 2014, as well, but there will be some challenges. I think the Indians will be more aggressive than usual in adding major league talent this offseason, or at least I hope so!

The Indians could sure use a bat at 1b. There's been talk about getting a RH hitter for a while now. One of the guys I've always liked going back to playing at U of Miami in college is Gaby Sanchez. He's right in his prime right now and is a guy that has trended toward turning 2Bs into HR's in recent years and he makes good contact. I think he's a good hitter that is going to improve next year. The Marlins don't have a 2b to speak of, so Cord Phelps may be a fit if they're interested? I think we'd need to kick in something else, but this would be a trade I'd be interested in exploring.

As far as free agents go, Fielder and Pujols aren't coming here. Other free agents of note are Lance Berkman, Derrek Lee and Carlos Pena. Derrek Lee isn't much better than LaPorta these days, but Berkman would be an obvious upgrade if he'd be willing to sign with Cleveland.

Also of importance, I believe the Indians are projected to have the 15th overall pick in next year's draft (based on current standings), meaning their first rounder will be protected if comp rules stay the same next year, so signing a Type-A free agent (such as Berkman) is a little more attractive.

Also, a side note, but I've always really liked Conor Jackson. I've been so wrong on him, but he's had some weird illnesses that derailed him when he was starting to show promise. A low cost guy with upside (in my opinion), he'd be a nice get for next year, but you couldnt depend on him to be good.

The Indians need a bat or two and 1b is a position that obviously could use an upgrade. I really hope the Indians are able to address this need in the coming offseason.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:54 am

GeronimoSon wrote:For the Indians to be successful, they just need to get and stay healthy. This applies to both position players as well as pitchers.

SP's is an area of depth that continues to get better:

-JeanMar appears to be getting it at the ML Level.. his last three starts have been spectacular.. As a Middle to Back of the Rotation Starter, he'd be fine..

-David Huff has made enough starts (8) during the second half of the season to be considered a pretty darn solid SP candidate. Huff's numbers don't always look that "great", but an ERA slightly over 3 (with a at least 5 of the 13 earned runs allowed being let in by the pen) and a developing confidence, he'll be just fine in the starting rotation.

That puts the Indians in a position of having 7 or 8 SP candidates going into 2012.. that's about where they need to be. That said, if an opportunity to add to the SP depth presents itself, the Indians would be wise to jump all over that.

what say you?


I say you're absolutely right. Between Gomez, Huff and Barnes they'll find a decent #5 starter - maybe all three actually. I'm not that high on McAllister. From what I've seen his stuff just isn't up to ML standards. He looks like a guy who does well at AAA but can't make the jump to the majors, like Head and Valbuena, for example.

I'm for playing Santana at first base next year. He's a horrible defensive catcher IMO. Having Marson instead of Santana behind the plate improves the defense immensely. I think if they just let Santana play 1st and concentrate on hitting his offensive production should improve. No need to trade for a first baseman.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:20 am

OhioBaseball wrote:...The Indians could sure use a bat at 1b. There's been talk about getting a RH hitter for a while now. One of the guys I've always liked going back to playing at U of Miami in college is Gaby Sanchez. He's right in his prime right now and is a guy that has trended toward turning 2Bs into HR's in recent years and he makes good contact. I think he's a good hitter that is going to improve next year. The Marlins don't have a 2b to speak of, so Cord Phelps may be a fit if they're interested? I think we'd need to kick in something else, but this would be a trade I'd be interested in exploring....Also of importance, I believe the Indians are projected to have the 15th overall pick in next year's draft (based on current standings), meaning their first rounder will be protected if comp rules stay the same next year, so signing a Type-A free agent (such as Berkman) is a little more attractive...The Indians need a bat or two and 1b is a position that obviously could use an upgrade. I really hope the Indians are able to address this need in the coming offseason.

The Free Agent market is an area that I've described as diminishing returns for expanding resources.. i.e. too little for too much. The prospect of obtaining a FA that could be the answer, while possible, would required a lot more luck than the Indians have enjoyed going all the way back to the Wayne Garland acquisition.. The 1B FA market has a pair of aces that could transform the Indians lineup in one fell swoop. Alas, the "time and money" costs for such an acquisition guarantee neither Albert Pujols or Pince Fielder from ever being considered. In short, no chance either will be wearing Chief Wahoo on their sleeve in 2012.. it's just not going to happen..

With respect to acquiring a bat that could be with the Indians in 2012 and beyond, it looks like 1B would be the most likely position for a boost. The other possibilities for a player who can impact the lineup from 1B include trade candidates:

Michael Morse (Nats): The Nats and Indians match up very well w/r to a trade situation. The Nats needs include a catcher, center fielder, and at least one MLB ready or near ready RP & SP. The Nats have a very strong group of young infielders including top ten prospects Anthony Rendon & Chris Marrero to go with Bryce Harper, all being on the precipice of becoming a ML'ers. The Nat's "corner" position player situation is getting crowded and a bit too right handed. The Indians have a starting pitching and reliever depth as well as depth at catcher and at least two and possibly three CF'ers that may be of interest to the Nats. An argument for a trade can, and, possibly, should be made.

Yonder Alonso (Reds): The Reds haven't figured out what Yonder will be when he grows up. One thing he won't be is the starting 1B, his best position. The Reds have experimented with putting Yonder in LF, but, they've learned why he is a 1B/DH. The Reds needs don't fit very well with the Indians save for pitching, both SP's and RP's. The Reds are set and deep at virtually the same positions the Indians are. The Reds biggest position player need appears to be 3B. The Indians have no intention of trading Lonnie Chisenhall. A trade with the Reds seems unlikely.

Jesus Montero (NYY's): The Yankees know that Jesus Montero is never going to be a ML Catcher. That leaves 1B (Mark Teixeira), FULL TIME DH (undesired) and LF (Brett Gardner) as position spots. The Yankees may be on the verge of losing their RF'er and can go out and buy anyone they want, but, could be more than willing to make a trade with the Indians. This would be a "block buster" type deal that would be predicated on the NYY's failing miserably in the playoffs (that would really hurt my feelings). The trade could include Shin-soo Choo as the center piece for the Indians and Jesus Montero as the co-centerpiece for the NYY's. (yes, that means more than just Montero from the NYY's).

Chris Carter(A's): The A's are a team in transition w/r to needs. The A's can use help just about everywhere on the diamond except middle infield and 1B. Carter who projects as a middle of the order hitter, has put up some incredible power numbers in the "hitter-happy" California League. The A's have never been a good trading partner, but, where there's a match, there may be a trade..

These are some suggested ideas for a RH'd bat for the Indians going into the 2012 season. There will be others. Any comments you might have w/r to trade potentials.. would be appreciated..
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:46 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Michael Morse (Nats): The Nats and Indians match up very well w/r to a trade situation. The Nats needs include a catcher, center fielder, and at least one MLB ready or near ready RP & SP. The Nats have a very strong group of young infielders including top ten prospects Anthony Rendon & Chris Marrero to go with Bryce Harper, all being on the precipice of becoming a ML'ers. The Nat's "corner" position player situation is getting crowded and a bit too right handed. The Indians have a starting pitching and reliever depth as well as depth at catcher and at least two and possibly three CF'ers that may be of interest to the Nats. An argument for a trade can, and, possibly, should be made.


I personally want no part of Morse at 1B. The guy is a butcher there. I like his bat but not his glove at 1B.

If the Indians do send Choo for Montero, the Indians will need a RF as there is not much in the system to replace him.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:55 pm

I see absolutely no reason why the nationals would move Morse.. The dude is shaping up to be a top tier bat and if he improves on this next going into next season is without a doubt one of the NL premier offensive players.... Not gonna happen.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:39 pm

Yonder Alonso is a lefthanded hitter btw.

I wonder what the Rockies would want for Fowler. Probably too much.

Allen Craig still seems like a very logical choice and shouldn't be too costly.

EDIT: I wonder how available someone like Gaby Sanchez would be. Adding both Craig and Sanchez would certainly improve our offense considerably.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:48 pm

How do these names compare to Shelly Duncan?
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:43 am

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Michael Morse (Nats): The Nats and Indians match up very well w/r to a trade situation. The Nats needs include a catcher, center fielder, and at least one MLB ready or near ready RP & SP. The Nats have a very strong group of young infielders including top ten prospects Anthony Rendon & Chris Marrero to go with Bryce Harper, all being on the precipice of becoming a ML'ers. The Nat's "corner" position player situation is getting crowded and a bit too right handed. The Indians have a starting pitching and reliever depth as well as depth at catcher and at least two and possibly three CF'ers that may be of interest to the Nats. An argument for a trade can, and, possibly, should be made.


I personally want no part of Morse at 1B. The guy is a butcher there. I like his bat but not his glove at 1B.

If the Indians do send Choo for Montero, the Indians will need a RF as there is not much in the system to replace him.
Couple of responses...

LH or RH.. if they can hit.. they can hit..

-Morse at 1B isn't the same Nat that was Morse at SS. As a 1B.. Morse is actually a decent defender.. as a SS (and I have no idea what ANYONE would ever think MM was a SS).. he was a butcher..

-Choo has to return more than just Montero. Perhaps a combination of Greg Golson, Slade Heathcote, Dante Bichette Jr, and / or Gary Sanchez would be part of a trade... The Indians have a lot of average OF'ers with thomas neal, grady, fuku, zeke, trevor, & michael, so they will more than fill the OF spots.. The Indians will be looking for some lower value FA players in the market, especially a RH bat. Names like Melky and Mike Napoli.. could be in the works as opposed to a trade..
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:16 am

GeronimoSon wrote:I personally want no part of Morse at 1B. The guy is a butcher there. I like his bat but not his glove at 1B.



I beg to differ. I have seen a lot of Morse at 1B when the Braves play the Nationals (living here in Atlanta we get all the Braves games....seldom do we get Indians games on TV). The guy is not very good. The term "butcher" about him at 1B was used a few times on the telecasts.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:22 pm

criznit2009 wrote:I see absolutely no reason why the nationals would move Morse.. The dude is shaping up to be a top tier bat and if he improves on this next going into next season is without a doubt one of the NL premier offensive players.... Not gonna happen.


Yes, but don't be surprised if the Nats get involved with the Pujols / Fielder sweepstakes. Those 2 do not seem to have landing spots with "the usual suspects". The Nats have paid high prices before. Landing one of them would then make Morse a very attractive trade chip.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:27 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Michael Morse (Nats): The Nats and Indians match up very well w/r to a trade situation. The Nats needs include a catcher, center fielder, and at least one MLB ready or near ready RP & SP. The Nats have a very strong group of young infielders including top ten prospects Anthony Rendon & Chris Marrero to go with Bryce Harper, all being on the precipice of becoming a ML'ers. The Nat's "corner" position player situation is getting crowded and a bit too right handed. The Indians have a starting pitching and reliever depth as well as depth at catcher and at least two and possibly three CF'ers that may be of interest to the Nats. An argument for a trade can, and, possibly, should be made.


I personally want no part of Morse at 1B. The guy is a butcher there. I like his bat but not his glove at 1B.

If the Indians do send Choo for Montero, the Indians will need a RF as there is not much in the system to replace him.


Would like to hear why the Nats need a catcher when Wilson Ramos has 12 HRs and .756 OPS (106 OPS+) as a rookie (and a former top 100 prospect). Flores is not a bad backup, and they have Derek Norris in AA. Nats need catching the same way the Indians need right-handed relievers.


As far as Morse at 1B...I agree he's a hack at 1B and pretty much anywhere in the field. He's a lot like Duncan but if you could get him for a reasonable price (have my doubts on that), he would still be valuable. Hafner may not stay healthy and same with Grady (if he's back). You could live with Morse at 1B and LF IMO if he's hitting.
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:28 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:I see absolutely no reason why the nationals would move Morse.. The dude is shaping up to be a top tier bat and if he improves on this next going into next season is without a doubt one of the NL premier offensive players.... Not gonna happen.


Yes, but don't be surprised if the Nats get involved with the Pujols / Fielder sweepstakes. Those 2 do not seem to have landing spots with "the usual suspects". The Nats have paid high prices before. Landing one of them would then make Morse a very attractive trade chip.


Morse could move to LF though...which is likely what will happen even if they stay away from Pujols/Fielder as they owe LaRoche a nice chunk of change for 2012.

Definitely think they would consider moving Morse, but the price may be too high (though you never know).
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:06 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Michael Morse (Nats): The Nats and Indians match up very well w/r to a trade situation. The Nats needs include a catcher, center fielder, and at least one MLB ready or near ready RP & SP. The Nats have a very strong group of young infielders including top ten prospects Anthony Rendon & Chris Marrero to go with Bryce Harper, all being on the precipice of becoming a ML'ers. The Nat's "corner" position player situation is getting crowded and a bit too right handed. The Indians have a starting pitching and reliever depth as well as depth at catcher and at least two and possibly three CF'ers that may be of interest to the Nats. An argument for a trade can, and, possibly, should be made.


I personally want no part of Morse at 1B. The guy is a butcher there. I like his bat but not his glove at 1B.

If the Indians do send Choo for Montero, the Indians will need a RF as there is not much in the system to replace him.
...Would like to hear why the Nats need a catcher when Wilson Ramos has 12 HRs and .756 OPS (106 OPS+) as a rookie (and a former top 100 prospect). Flores is not a bad backup, and they have Derek Norris in AA. Nats need catching the same way the Indians need right-handed relievers.....
Wilson Ramos is a good Catcher and will be the everyday starter for the Nats, question.. but when you look at Flores and Norris.. there isn't much to like.. Flores was promoted to the MLs to cover for the loss of Ivan Rodriguez (injury to his back.. and a Free Agent to be). Ivan Rodriguez wants to continue to play, but, not with the Nats.. and not at his price tag. Flores was rushed. Norris swings hard in AA in the off chance he makes contact.. IF ever there was a reason to create a position called designate fielder, Norris would be the poster boy.. come to think of it.. even when Flores was in the minors prior to his emergency call up, (there's a hint).. he wasn't batting much better than Norris..

But the real reason.. I've never run into a manager or GM who proclaims he has too many good catchers..
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby daingean » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:26 pm

GeronimoSon wrote: Wilson Ramos is a good Catcher and will be the everyday starter for the Nats, question.. but when you look at Flores and Norris.. there isn't much to like.. Flores was promoted to the MLs to cover for the loss of Ivan Rodriguez (injury to his back.. and a Free Agent to be). Ivan Rodriguez wants to continue to play, but, not with the Nats.. and not at his price tag. Flores was rushed. Norris swings hard in AA in the off chance he makes contact.. IF ever there was a reason to create a position called designate fielder, Norris would be the poster boy.. come to think of it.. even when Flores was in the minors prior to his emergency call up, (there's a hint).. he wasn't batting much better than Norris..

But the real reason.. I've never run into a manager or GM who proclaims he has too many good catchers..


The DH rule in HS allows the coaches to DH for any of the 9 fielders. Anyone know if the DH rule in the majors specifically says "for the pitcher" or could it be for any one of the 9 fielders? Wonder if any AL manager would consider DHing for a great glove no-hit SS or C and hit for the pitcher?
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Re: 2011-2013: Window of contention?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:27 pm

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote: Wilson Ramos is a good Catcher and will be the everyday starter for the Nats, question.. but when you look at Flores and Norris.. there isn't much to like.. Flores was promoted to the MLs to cover for the loss of Ivan Rodriguez (injury to his back.. and a Free Agent to be). Ivan Rodriguez wants to continue to play, but, not with the Nats.. and not at his price tag. Flores was rushed. Norris swings hard in AA in the off chance he makes contact.. IF ever there was a reason to create a position called designate fielder, Norris would be the poster boy.. come to think of it.. even when Flores was in the minors prior to his emergency call up, (there's a hint).. he wasn't batting much better than Norris..

But the real reason.. I've never run into a manager or GM who proclaims he has too many good catchers..


The DH rule in HS allows the coaches to DH for any of the 9 fielders. Anyone know if the DH rule in the majors specifically says "for the pitcher" or could it be for any one of the 9 fielders? Wonder if any AL manager would consider DHing for a great glove no-hit SS or C and hit for the pitcher?


Now that's thinking out side the box.... good idear....
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