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Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

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Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:34 am

Entering the series...
Indians: 70-67, 2nd place in AL Central, 6 1/2 GB of theTigers, 39-30 at home, 7-3 in last 10.
Tigers: 78-62, 1st place in AL Central, 36-33 on the road, 8-2 in last 10.
The Indians are coming off their 3rd series win in a row, having bested the Royals twice and the A's in a four game series. The Indians & Tigers met two weeks ago for a three game weekend series in Detroit. The young wahoos were swept out of Comerica. The Tigers come into the three game series in Cleveland having polished off AL Central rival CWSox with an 18-2 HAMMERING in the finale of the three game weekend series at Comerica. This offensive explosion represented season highs in hits & runs for the Tigers. This game followed a season high seven run comeback walkoff home run by Miguel Cabrera the previous night. The Tigers are the hottest team in the AL right now, coming off an 18-10 month of August, however, they come to Cleveland with a 1-5 record at Progressive Field this year.. a splinter of hope?..we shall see..

Monday, 1:05 ET
Doug Fister RHP (3-1, 2.97 ) vs Ubaldo Jimenez, RHP (2-1. 5.56)

Fister enters the opener of this series having gone at least 7 innings in his previous three starts including a perfect game bid he took into the seventh inning of his start, Tuesday, against the Royals. That outing reflects how well he has been pitching with Detroit since coming over from the Mariners with David Pauley for Chance Ruffin, Charlie Furbush, Casper Wells and Francisco Martinez. This big 6'8", 220 pounder can be intimidating on the mound. He leverages his height with down action on all his pitches. The Indians hitters will have to make him get the ball up for them to be effective, otherwise the big right hander will remain consistently effective. Ubaldo parallels Fister as a trade deadline acquisition. Ubaldo has made six starts since being acquired by the Indians, two (one home, one away) against the Tigers. The home start saw the "best of Ubaldo", going eigth strong innings, striking out six & allowing no runs. The 3.1 IP 8 earned runs three walks four k's outing in Comerica 11 days later represents the "worst of Ubaldo". Which Ubaldo Indians fans get will determine how this game will go. Getting a W in the series opener is key to putting some pressure on the motor city kitties..

Tuesday, 7:05 ET
Fausto Carmona, RHP (6-13, 4.84) vs. Rick Porcello, RHP (12-8, 5.01)

There's no sugar-coating how consistent Carmona has been over the last two month, with ten starts covering 58.1 IP (including a two inning start against the Reds), he has a 2-3 record to go along with a respectable 3.24 ERA. The keys to Fausto's success..strike one and fastball command. Fausto continues to be a ground ball machine. A continuation of his performance in this Tuesday start will give the Indians a realistic chance at a W. Rick Porcello is the kind of pitcher that can be had. The Indians need to get to him early and often. Getting runners on base put's Porcello in the uncomfortable position of pitching from the set where he's vastly less effective. If Porcello can get through the first couple of innings unscathed, he can be a handful.

Wednesday, 12:05 ET
Justin Masterson, RHP (11-8, 2.92 ERA) vs. Justin Verlander, RHP (21-5, 2.34 ERA)

Masterson's masterful year has continued, unabated, throughout the year. This outing has him facing off against the best pitcher in the American League. Masterson has shown a propensity to allow the opposition to get to him early in games. After these early "bruises", Masterson has settled in and has shut down the opposition for his usual seven innings of dazzling sinkers & four seam fastballs. Masterson has yet to earn a W against the Tigers, perhaps, his worst matchup in the division. The Tigers are 1-5 against the Indians at Progressive Field, and you guessed it, it belongs to Verlander. In that outing, he went seven innings, had 10 Ks, 3 earned runs, 3 walks and 3 hits in a 4-3 win. In Verlander's last nine starts, he has 9 wins. He has not gone less than six innings in any one of those starts. Verlander is the best in the AL this year.. He is a handful. Indians hitters cannot expect to see him leave when he reaches the magic 100 pitch count as he is the energizer bunny..he just keeps going and going...


NOTES:
• The Indians have won 5 of their last 6 games at Progressive Field.
• Asdrubal Cabrera was back in the lineup Sunday and should be good to go for today's 1:05 tilt..
• Grady Sizemore may be activated for today's game.
• Lonnie Chisenhall will be the full time starter for the foreseeable future after Jack Hannahan tweaked his calf muscle and may not be available for the Tiger series.
• The Tigers Fister has received an average of 4.71 runs per game with Detroit, up from the 1.97 he got in 21 starts with Seattle. Amazing how an extra three runs per game can make a good pitcher look all that much better.
• There are six games remaining between these two teams, including Monday's Labor Day Showdown.
• The Tigers all but ended the CWSox season by sweeping the division rival. It's no secret that the Detroit Tigers have designs on doing the same to the Indians.
• Delmon Young has been placed into the three hole for the Tigers and has responded allowing Jim Leyland the opportunity to extend his strong & productive batting order down into the 7 hole.
• Tigers reliever Al Alburquerque should be activated for this series..

There is no longer an American League Central Division watch. It is the Indians versus the Tigers..Period
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:08 am

Michael Rosenburg, Detroit Free Press describing what would have to happen for the Tigers to lose the division:

..... now, let's say the Tigers go into a complete, historic, never-before-seen utter debacle of a death-spiraling collapse of lousy miserable manure-smelling cliff-diving face-plant, banana-peel-slipping horse-poop Matt Millen proportions....I suppose it is possible for that to happen, in the same way it is possible that Cabrera will suddenly decide that what he really wants to do, every time he steps to the plate, is bunt. But I can't fathom it happening. Also, I don't believe much in momentum in baseball, but the Tigers just scored 26 straight runs against the White Sox. This was Chicago's season, and the Tigers cued up the laugh track. That's hard to overcome...


Can you spell "OVER CONFIDENT"..??????
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:11 pm

Good morning

Good afternoon..

and GOOD NIGHT IRENE !!..

Three up.. three down..the heater is working early on for Ubaldo.. impressive as hell.. start... :s_thumbsup

Jim Wolf needs to be retrained on what is a strike and what isn't a strike... The calls he's made on anything that is close to "low" are dreadful for a sinker ball pitcher.. and Miguel Cabrera got a walk on strike three... he couldn't hit it, so he didn't swing at it.. and Jim Wolf gave him the walk..

well.. that turned into an anti-climatic and dull game.. One bad pitch by Ubaldo.. and that was all she wrote.. Fister certainly had the Indians hitters guessing.. Well, onto game two..which... IS a must.. no retreat now.. :s_cry
Last edited by GeronimoSon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:48 pm

I'm glad MLB Network is showing the Yankees versus Orioles instead of this game. Who wants to want an actual game that matters, when you can watch the Yankees?
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:42 pm

And Victor is the one who did us in. Great season - interesting all the way to September. Face to face with the Tigers - and we tanked - as did the ChiSox. Hats off to the Motor City Kittens!
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby ironmike » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:22 pm

Ubaldo pitched a good game today. No offense. Barring any injuries in 2012 he will prove to be the real deal.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:10 pm

@ entertheshoe... Yeah, they might as well as air the Yanx batting practice. :s_thumbsup
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:36 am

A bummer of a game.. Doug Fister was very good... Ubaldo, pretty good, but not good enough. This game may be considered another one where the opportunities presented were not capitalized upon. Droobs at bat with the bases loaded and two down took a strike that wasn't, then took another strike that wasn't..then swung at a big slow curve ball to end the threat. Emotion may have gotten the better of him as he ripped his helmet off and angrily flipped his bat.

Ubaldo came out firing BB's.. and, other than the fat fastball that VMart deposited into the right field bleachers, was pretty much right on his game. He went seven innings with 8 K's.. not a bad outing.. just not good enough..

Joe Smith had his first poor outing in forever. HP Umpire Jim Wolf seemed to be squeezing the zone on him, especially on the low strike. Without the low strike, Smitty is an average reliever on a good day.. Nice crowd for the game. Too bad they didn't get much to cheer about...

Game two tonight remains critical to staying in the race.. if there is a race.. The chance to get into the race are waning..rapidly !...
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:09 am

I think Victor ended whatever remote chance the Indians had with one swing. Now they're 7 1/2 out with only five games to play against Detroit. And we'll see Verlander at least once. Even if we win all five, which is not realistic, we still have to make up 2 1/2 games against other opponents. Plus, the Tigers are healthy now except for Boesch, while the Tribe is missing Brantley, Hafner, Choo, Kipnis, Carrasco, and Hannahan. Grady is back but he admits he's not 100%. It's been a great ride but this thing is over.

Fister was a huge acquisition for Detroit. He has a 2.64 ERA for them in 7 starts. Compare that to Ubaldo's performance and it's clear that Detroit got the better pitcher, at least for this year. Watching them side by side Fister seemed clearly superior - he was commanding all his pitches and completely dominating the Indians hitters. I only saw two well hit balls all day, both singles up the middle. Of course it helped that the ump had an extremely generous strike zone and was giving him both corners.

It also helped that the Tribe hitters totally suck. Come on, 13 strikeouts to a guy who's never struck out more than 9 in his entire career? Even his mother called after the game to ask him what happened. That change in hitting coaches has really paid dividends, hasn't it?

Ubaldo struggled with his control as usual. It seems he has to work so hard and throw so many pitches to get through his innings. You could argue that he had a great outing except for one pitch, but at this point I would take Pomeranz, White, and Abreu back if I could.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:18 am

By the way, the Indians hitters now lead the AL in strikeouts. Even Acta critisized them after yesterday's game.

What's with Santana? He crowds the plate so much that he gets strikes called on him when he's jerking out of the way on pitches on the inside corner. Ridiculous. His elbows are actually in the strike zone as the pitch is delivered.

Not to mention they consistently get him out on inside fastballs that he hits on the handle and either pops up or weakly grounds out.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby timdav » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:49 am

Looks like it wasn't just Jon Nunnally's fault, huh?

The Indians front office has got to be painfully aware of their primary off-season activity: find at least one solid, professional hitter....preferably one who hits well right-handed, preferably an outfielder (but a solid-hitting 1B is OK). That's minimal.

My guess is if Sizemore's back in '12, it'll be for far, far less than $9 million a year. But, really...regardless of what Grady gets paid next season...do we really WANT him back?

The 1B situation with La Porta needs to come to some conclusion. Do they give him 1B carte blanche? If not, does that mean Santana will play 1st most of the time? Then, do you want....can this team in the AL afford Lou Marson's .220 or something BA?

Like many have said, it's a crime to waste pretty good pitching. Sure, there were an amazing number of injurries...but: the offense has been so-so most of the season.

Lotsa work in the off-season....for sure.

Still, I'm carefully optimistic about the Indians' future in the next couple years.

What do you guys think? Any trade suggestions?
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby daingean » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:22 pm

timdav wrote:can this team in the AL afford Lou Marson's .220 or something BA?


I am one that doesn't really care what my catcher hits as long as he does the job defensively. A good defensive catcher saves far more runs than a good hitting/average defender produces. There is a reason why baseball has an old rule about defense up the middle wins championships.

For me a catcher's list of importance are below - in that order.

1. calling game/setting up/earning strikes for the pitchers
2. controlling the running game (not only in sb% but really the number of extra bases opponents get. wild pitches/passed balls are a big factor here)
3. calming down pitchers
4. hitting
5. baserunning
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:45 pm

timdav wrote:Looks like it wasn't just Jon Nunnally's fault, huh?

The Indians front office has got to be painfully aware of their primary off-season activity: find at least one solid, professional hitter....preferably one who hits well right-handed, preferably an outfielder (but a solid-hitting 1B is OK). That's minimal.

My guess is if Sizemore's back in '12, it'll be for far, far less than $9 million a year. But, really...regardless of what Grady gets paid next season...do we really WANT him back?

The 1B situation with La Porta needs to come to some conclusion. Do they give him 1B carte blanche? If not, does that mean Santana will play 1st most of the time? Then, do you want....can this team in the AL afford Lou Marson's .220 or something BA?

Like many have said, it's a crime to waste pretty good pitching. Sure, there were an amazing number of injurries...but: the offense has been so-so most of the season.

Lotsa work in the off-season....for sure.

Still, I'm carefully optimistic about the Indians' future in the next couple years.

What do you guys think? Any trade suggestions?


I think a restructuring of the on the field 8 is appropriate and that very difficult decisions are needed - in particular how to de lefty the order. IMO we cannot have a starting order of 3 left handed outfielders and left handed 2nd and 3b batters. That means some players we feel are core need to be "exchanged" for other core players who are right handed. Some team out there must be too "righty" and we could exchange quality for quality. IMO two new bats are needed.

That said - if Sizemore stays IMO - Brantley has to go.

That said - if Kipnis stays - I think Chis has to go.

A balanced order might look like.

Brantley/Sizemore = CF
ACab = SS
Kipnis/Donald = 2b
Choo/New = RF
Santana/LaPorta/New = 1b (one guy - one job)
Hafner = DH
New/LaPorta = LF
Chis/New = 3b
Santana/Marson = C

Also, IMO Duncan contributes more than LaPorta to the lineup.

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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:04 pm

timdav wrote:Looks like it wasn't just Jon Nunnally's fault, huh?

The Indians front office has got to be painfully aware of their primary off-season activity: find at least one solid, professional hitter....preferably one who hits well right-handed, preferably an outfielder (but a solid-hitting 1B is OK). That's minimal.

My guess is if Sizemore's back in '12, it'll be for far, far less than $9 million a year. But, really...regardless of what Grady gets paid next season...do we really WANT him back?

The 1B situation with La Porta needs to come to some conclusion. Do they give him 1B carte blanche? If not, does that mean Santana will play 1st most of the time? Then, do you want....can this team in the AL afford Lou Marson's .220 or something BA?

Like many have said, it's a crime to waste pretty good pitching. Sure, there were an amazing number of injurries...but: the offense has been so-so most of the season.

Lotsa work in the off-season....for sure.

Still, I'm carefully optimistic about the Indians' future in the next couple years.

What do you guys think? Any trade suggestions?

For whatever reason, the Indians have hit more poorly with Fields than they did with Nunnally. We can make excuses for Fields but the numbers show what is obvious from the Ks. But I do not think it is just Fields. The organization as a whole seems to have a bad K ratio. And, as far as I know, Hermie is the only one on the site who believes Ks are not a problem. Perhaps it is a philosophical issue with the organization that they emphasize power over contact. They seem to want contact hitters like Brantley and Phelps to hit for power at the cost of contact. Sometimes that works like it seems to with Cabrera but I am not sure it is a general panacea for the lack of scoring. I hope our promising hitters in A, SS and rookie ball don't fall by the wayside. :pleasantry:
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:35 pm

Perhaps it is a philosophical issue with the organization that they emphasize power over contact.


Fine, so where's the power?

31 home runs all year from the right side of the plate? And how many strikeouts?

Overall the Tribe is 10th in home runs and 13th in stolen base percentage. Not much power or speed. However, good health from Sizemore, Choo, Kipnis, Brantley and Hafner next year to go along with Santana and Asdrubal should result in an above-average offensive team in terms of runs scored.

The problem with the unbalanced offense is why I was pushing for a Choo-for-Pence trade, but that didn't happen.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:47 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Perhaps it is a philosophical issue with the organization that they emphasize power over contact.


Fine, so where's the power?

31 home runs all year from the right side of the plate? And how many strikeouts?

Overall the Tribe is 10th in home runs and 13th in stolen base percentage. Not much power or speed. However, good health from Sizemore, Choo, Kipnis, Brantley and Hafner next year to go along with Santana and Asdrubal should result in an above-average offensive team in terms of runs scored.

The problem with the unbalanced offense is why I was pushing for a Choo-for-Pence trade, but that didn't happen.


Next year's projected "Healthy" Lineup (primary positions) should feature a top to bottom, # 1 through # 9 power output that could look like this:

Kosuke Fukudome..LF........22 homers
Grady Sizemore.....CF...... 22 homers
Shin-soo Choo......RF........22 homers
Carlos Santana......C........22 homers
Jack Hannahan.....1B........22 homers
Jason Kipnis........2B........22 homers
Lonnie Chisenhall..3B........22 homers
Asdrubal Cabrera...SS........22 homers
Travis Hafner.......DH.......22 homers

Add
Jason Donald......Util........ 4 homers
Lou Marson........C..........6 homers
Michael Brantley...OF........10 homers
Shelly Duncan......Util........8 homers

Totaled, and that's 226 homers {times two (2) for doubles = 450, divided by ten (10) for triples = 23} which would give the Sons of Geronimo plenty of power.. Now, will everyone in the starting lineup get 22 homers?.. no.. but some will get more and some will get less.. but all are at least capable of getting at or near the level suggested. If there is good health.. at least half the guys on the list have a good chance of going over these projected home run totals. It always comes down to health when discussing a middle/small market team..
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby theshow » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:19 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Next year's projected "Healthy" Lineup (primary positions) should feature a top to bottom, # 1 through # 9 power output that could look like this:

Kosuke Fukudome..LF........22 homers
Grady Sizemore.....CF...... 22 homers
Shin-soo Choo......RF........22 homers
Carlos Santana......C........22 homers
Jack Hannahan.....1B........22 homers
Jason Kipnis........2B........22 homers
Lonnie Chisenhall..3B........22 homers
Asdrubal Cabrera...SS........22 homers
Travis Hafner.......DH.......22 homers

Add
Jason Donald......Util........ 4 homers
Lou Marson........C..........6 homers
Michael Brantley...OF........10 homers
Shelly Duncan......Util........8 homers

Totaled, and that's 226 homers {times two (2) for doubles = 450, divided by ten (10) for triples = 23} which would give the Sons of Geronimo plenty of power.. Now, will everyone in the starting lineup get 22 homers?.. no.. but some will get more and some will get less.. but all are at least capable of getting at or near the level suggested. If there is good health.. at least half the guys on the list have a good chance of going over these projected home run totals. It always comes down to health when discussing a middle/small market team..


Insane post... Fukudome wont be on the team, and is not capable of 22 homeruns... I would say Hannahan is not capable of 22, Chisenhall is not capable of 22, and at this stage of his career neith is Hafner... I would certainly bet against sizemore and kipnis, and even ascab is a long shot to repeat... the only 2 I feel confident about getting there are a healthy Choo and Santana.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby ironmike » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:32 pm

Prosecutor agree 100% with your post regarding Pence. Not only do we need to reduce the K's but we need to walk more too.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:36 pm

theshow wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Next year's projected "Healthy" Lineup (primary positions) should feature a top to bottom, # 1 through # 9 power output that could look like this:

Kosuke Fukudome..LF........22 homers
Grady Sizemore.....CF...... 22 homers
Shin-soo Choo......RF........22 homers
Carlos Santana......C........22 homers
Jack Hannahan.....1B........22 homers
Jason Kipnis........2B........22 homers
Lonnie Chisenhall..3B........22 homers
Asdrubal Cabrera...SS........22 homers
Travis Hafner.......DH.......22 homers

Add
Jason Donald......Util........ 4 homers
Lou Marson........C..........6 homers
Michael Brantley...OF........10 homers
Shelly Duncan......Util........8 homers

Totaled, and that's 226 homers {times two (2) for doubles = 450, divided by ten (10) for triples = 23} which would give the Sons of Geronimo plenty of power.. Now, will everyone in the starting lineup get 22 homers?.. no.. but some will get more and some will get less.. but all are at least capable of getting at or near the level suggested. If there is good health.. at least half the guys on the list have a good chance of going over these projected home run totals. It always comes down to health when discussing a middle/small market team..


Insane post... Fukudome wont be on the team, and is not capable of 22 homeruns... I would say Hannahan is not capable of 22, Chisenhall is not capable of 22, and at this stage of his career neith is Hafner... I would certainly bet against sizemore and kipnis, and even ascab is a long shot to repeat... the only 2 I feel confident about getting there are a healthy Choo and Santana.


Fukudome is on the team now.. unless you're actually Chris Antonneti, then saying he won't be here is just the start of what's ridiculous. With that said.. Fukudome's closer to a 10-15 type home run hitter.. not much more, and not much less, but we know as players mature into their late 20's and early 30's, their power numbers tend to rise.. Jack Hannahan as the regular first baseman would be around the same as Fukudome, or, perhaps a shade better, but, not much better. At this stage of his career and healthy, Hafner is capable of double that, but, 22 is a good sound number for a healthy Hafner. I would expect it to be well over 22 if he can get 450 or more AB's. Chisenhall is young.. so, guessing what his power output is going to be a year from now is nothing more than a guess.. Based on the way the young man swings the bat, the number of RH pitchers he's going to see, 22 is NOT out of the question. Regarding Sizemore and Kipnis.. this isn't a wager, it's a projection. A healthy Sizemore has already had 22, 28, 24. 33, homers in consecutive seasons. He'll have the full off season to prepare for the 2012 season. He will be rehabbing from surgery this year. So, that would be a wager you'd lose based on projecting he'll be healthy. Jason Kipnis has 68 AB's and 6 homers, what's not to like about his power potential?.

So, in effect, each and every player that is listed.. can get to the level give or take.

Now... if you have something less ridiculous to offer.. now would be the time...
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby martyinnewyork » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:01 pm

All I can say is - WOW!

Don't think every starter is going to bang 22 homers... Santana, Cabrera, Choo are likely but the rest would be a shock... Kipnis not so much, but the rest?
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:09 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:All I can say is - WOW!

Don't think every starter is going to bang 22 homers... Santana, Cabrera, Choo are likely but the rest would be a shock... Kipnis not so much, but the rest?
Marty.. I don't believe every single starter is going to get 22 homers either.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:12 pm

Alright..

Jason The Kipper Kipnis is in the starting lineup tonight....
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Tondo » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:24 pm

...and that's why I wanted and still want Carmona traded....5 runs after no on with 2 outs? Are you kidding me?
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby timdav » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:37 pm

5-0 already?

Ahhhh...I hate to be negative but: anybody want to talk about '12 yet?
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:32 pm

theshow wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Next year's projected "Healthy" Lineup (primary positions) should feature a top to bottom, # 1 through # 9 power output that could look like this:

Kosuke Fukudome..LF........22 homers
Grady Sizemore.....CF...... 22 homers
Shin-soo Choo......RF........22 homers
Carlos Santana......C........22 homers
Jack Hannahan.....1B........22 homers
Jason Kipnis........2B........22 homers
Lonnie Chisenhall..3B........22 homers
Asdrubal Cabrera...SS........22 homers
Travis Hafner.......DH.......22 homers

Add
Jason Donald......Util........ 4 homers
Lou Marson........C..........6 homers
Michael Brantley...OF........10 homers
Shelly Duncan......Util........8 homers

Totaled, and that's 226 homers {times two (2) for doubles = 450, divided by ten (10) for triples = 23} which would give the Sons of Geronimo plenty of power.. Now, will everyone in the starting lineup get 22 homers?.. no.. but some will get more and some will get less.. but all are at least capable of getting at or near the level suggested. If there is good health.. at least half the guys on the list have a good chance of going over these projected home run totals. It always comes down to health when discussing a middle/small market team..


Insane post... Fukudome wont be on the team, and is not capable of 22 homeruns... I would say Hannahan is not capable of 22, Chisenhall is not capable of 22, and at this stage of his career neith is Hafner... I would certainly bet against sizemore and kipnis, and even ascab is a long shot to repeat... the only 2 I feel confident about getting there are a healthy Choo and Santana.


Agreed. I doubt Fukudome will be a part of this team next year. And if you think Fukudome and Hannahan can hit 22 HR in a season, you're nuts. Same goes for Chisenhall. Right now, Fukudome and Hannahan are considered at BEST 5-10 a year. Chisenhall probably 15-18. PLUS, the fact that you listed 10 starters, I would assume you have Jack and Lonnie splitting time at 3B. It would be even more amazing if they could hit 22 HR a piece splitting time at 3B. When Grady is HEALTHY, he can hit 20.. but is he really capable of that now?
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:36 am

Carmona.. was awful.. worst outing of the year.. Nothing moved. Sinker didn't sink.. change up didn't drop. and he pressed, threw harder, spun out.. and lost command.. the worst possible result for him and the Indians at the worst possible time..

Nice homer by Fukudome.. he turned on the ball and drove it into the RF bleachers..

The Tigers can flat out hit.. 15 hits..everyone in the starting lineup had at least one knock.

Porcello got a lot of ground balls.. and was never in any kind of trouble.. Indians hitters wore out the top half of the ball against him in this game..

Tip of the hat to the Tigers..they've taken the lead in the Division and continue to expand.. With Verlander on the hill today, it's not looking very good for the Weary Wahoos.. Justin Masterson, who hasn't pitch very well against the Tigers, needs a solid outing to salvage one game of the series.. :s_cry
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:19 am

Well, the Indians season effectively ends just as the Browns is beginning. At least the Indians were still in contention through August, which is more than we hoped for this season.

Putrid performance by Fausto, not that it matters at this point. Very disappointing season for Carmona that got off on the wrong foot on Opening Day and never really got going. The one thing you can always count on with Fausto is that he'll take the ball every fifth day, but even that wasn't the case this year as he tried to beat out a bunt and wiped out at first base during an interleague game.

I really wonder whether the Tribe will pay him $7 million next year after putting up an ERA well north of 5.00 this season. He's been a starrter for what - four or five years now? When is he going to put it together?

Got my first look at Hagadone. Pretty impressive. He must have been thrilled to strike out Miquel Cabrera. That slider was vicious. I wonder if they're tempted to try him as a starter again or whether he stays in the BP permanently.

On another subject, if Pomeranz pitches 5 or 6 shutout innings for the Rockies on Sunday I'm going to puke. I'd reverse that deal today if I could.

The rest of the Indians season I'll be concentrating on the young guys like Chiz, Kipnis, Hagadone, Gomez and Judy. Also, can Sizemore come back and finish strong, which would give us some hope for next year.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:18 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Putrid performance by Fausto, not that it matters at this point. Very disappointing season for Carmona that got off on the wrong foot on Opening Day and never really got going. The one thing you can always count on with Fausto is that he'll take the ball every fifth day, but even that wasn't the case this year as he tried to beat out a bunt and wiped out at first base during an interleague game.

I really wonder whether the Tribe will pay him $7 million next year after putting up an ERA well north of 5.00 this season. He's been a starrter for what - four or five years now? When is he going to put it together?


With Carrasco out, it's a 100% lock that Carmona's option is picked up. Hell, it was a lock before. Yes, he's struggled this year, but $7M is really not outragous. Not likely to get a better pitcher for less and no guarantee the young guys (Gomez, McAllister, etc) will step up and do any better.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:44 pm

Man....what's gotten into Duncan? Been hitting righties much better than lefties this year, and now just went yard off Verlander?!
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:18 pm

OUCH.. VMart sticks the knife in and twists it..now down by three runs.. :s_cry
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:26 pm

I was hoping they could salvage this game and maybe go on a little run, but that doesn't look like it's happening.

Or maybe I can will Chisenhall to hit a 2 run homer...
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Edible14 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:29 pm

Victor hasn't been very good this year by his standards (2nd worst season of his career behind 2008), but man he steps it up when he's playing the Indians.

Man, Trevor Crowe looks just as worthless now as he did before. I can't see him keeping his 40 man spot this offseason.

Interesting stat from Waiting For Next Year:
Matt LaPorta managed to play worse in 2011 than he did in 2010, which was actually a considerable accomplishment. His WAR (wins above replacement, or how a player compares to your typical triple A player), already negative in 2010, actually decreased in 2011. Over that two year span, LaPorta managed to cost his team 2 wins more than a replacement level first-baseman would have. No first baseman in the Major Leagues was more costly to his team over this two year period than Matt LaPorta.

Wait, it gets better. From 2010 to 2011, only two players were more detrimental to their teams than Matt LaPorta was to the Indians, and both are currently not in the Major Leagues. The first is Pedro Feliz, whose career has been mercifully been euthanized. The second? Luis Valbuena. You can’t make this stuff up.


There's always a chance that he puts it together later, but that looks more and more like it's waiting for a miracle. While LaPorta could end up being another Alex Gordon/Brandon Phillips type, isn't it far more likely at this point that he's more like Andy Marte? I don't expect the Indians will get rid of him, as there aren't any attractive options in the minors and a free agent splurge on the likes of Fielder or Berkman doesn't seem likely. That being said, I wouldn't complain if they got rid of LaPorta and brought in somebody else.

And why is Luis Valbuena up with Cleveland? Jason Donald, Cord Phelps and Jason Kipnis seem to have the 2B/utility role down just fine.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:41 pm

Edible14 wrote:There's always a chance that he puts it together later, but that looks more and more like it's waiting for a miracle. While LaPorta could end up being another Alex Gordon/Brandon Phillips type, isn't it far more likely at this point that he's more like Andy Marte? I don't expect the Indians will get rid of him, as there aren't any attractive options in the minors and a free agent splurge on the likes of Fielder or Berkman doesn't seem likely. That being said, I wouldn't complain if they got rid of LaPorta and brought in somebody else.

And why is Luis Valbuena up with Cleveland? Jason Donald, Cord Phelps and Jason Kipnis seem to have the 2B/utility role down just fine.


Alex Gordon was actually pretty useful even when the Royals deemed him "not ready" for the Majors. LaPorta isn't useful, and he's clearly not ready for the Majors, which is a shame because there is a lot of power in that bat.

Even though he's a lefty, and will probably try and get a multi-year deal, Carlos Pena wouldn't be that bad of a pickup. He's a few tiers lower than Fielder/Pujols, and even Berkman, but he can actually play first, hit, and get on base.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:00 pm

Victor hasnt been very good this year? Are you kidding? Season seems to be right up there with most of his other years, with a slight drop in power. I would freakin take such a not-very-good year from anybody in our line-up...
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:06 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:For whatever reason, the Indians have hit more poorly with Fields than they did with Nunnally. We can make excuses for Fields but the numbers show what is obvious from the Ks. But I do not think it is just Fields. The organization as a whole seems to have a bad K ratio. And, as far as I know, Hermie is the only one on the site who believes Ks are not a problem. Perhaps it is a philosophical issue with the organization that they emphasize power over contact. They seem to want contact hitters like Brantley and Phelps to hit for power at the cost of contact. Sometimes that works like it seems to with Cabrera but I am not sure it is a general panacea for the lack of scoring. I hope our promising hitters in A, SS and rookie ball don't fall by the wayside. :pleasantry:


If we did actually have guys that were hitting 30-50 HRs then it wouldn't be a problem but we don't really have those guys (some have potential BUT....). Strikeouts then prevent Acta from putting runners in motion (hit and runs, run and hits....). For a team without the big HR hitters, putting runners in motion causes defenses to get out of position and also causes guys to rush into fielding mishaps. I know this is NL type ball BUT it could change results.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:53 pm

Victor Martinez with 10 RBI in three games against the Indians. He almost single-handedly won two of the three games with a 3-run HR in a 4-2 win and a grand slam in an 8-6 win. Put him on the Indians instead of the Tigers this season and the Tribe is in first place right now.

The Tigers' ability to afford players like VMart and Miggy Cabrera is what is separating them from the Indians. That deal for Fister is working out better for them than the Tribe's deal for Ubaldo, too.

As for the first base problem, I would make Santana the regular first baseman next year. His defense behind the dish is horrendus. The other night he let a pop-up drop 15 feet from home plate. One of his throws to second bounced three feet in front of the bag and the other one made the SS jump to flag it down. He also tried to pick a guy off first base but the ball squirted out of his hand as he tried to throw it and he had to scramble after it. It was comical how inept he was.

Not to mention that he's afraid to block the plate after his injury last year and usually drops the throw while trying a sweep tag from a safe distance up the line.

Marson, on the other hand, is excellent defensively and controls the running game. And he's hitting over .300 against left-handed pitching. If he could even hit .240 against right-handers he'd be an All-Star candidate.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Edible14 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:08 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:Victor hasnt been very good this year? Are you kidding? Season seems to be right up there with most of his other years, with a slight drop in power. I would freakin take such a not-very-good year from anybody in our line-up...


Note the part where I said "by his standards". His wOBA is .358, second lowest of 8 seasons in the bigs (injury riddled 2008 being the lowest). The drop can be accounted for by his lower walk rate (7.8% vs. 9.5% career), and reduced home run total - he's hit at least 20 HRs in 5 of 7 previous seasons, only 10 this year. Also note that 3 of those homers have come against the Tribe.

His line for the year is .325 AVG/.374 OBA/.453 SLG/.826 OPS
His line vs. the Tribe is .311 AVG/.340 OBA/.622 SLG/.962 OPS

So, yes. He has been having an off year by his standards, and he has been extra-good against the tribe.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:27 pm

That is what I call nit-picking...
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby go_tribe » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:34 am

Victor is in no way having an off year, even by his standards :fool:
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:27 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Victor Martinez with 10 RBI in three games against the Indians. He almost single-handedly won two of the three games with a 3-run HR in a 4-2 win and a grand slam in an 8-6 win. Put him on the Indians instead of the Tigers this season and the Tribe is in first place right now.

The Tigers' ability to afford players like VMart and Miggy Cabrera is what is separating them from the Indians. That deal for Fister is working out better for them than the Tribe's deal for Ubaldo, too.

As for the first base problem, I would make Santana the regular first baseman next year. His defense behind the dish is horrendus. The other night he let a pop-up drop 15 feet from home plate. One of his throws to second bounced three feet in front of the bag and the other one made the SS jump to flag it down. He also tried to pick a guy off first base but the ball squirted out of his hand as he tried to throw it and he had to scramble after it. It was comical how inept he was.

Not to mention that he's afraid to block the plate after his injury last year and usually drops the throw while trying a sweep tag from a safe distance up the line.

Marson, on the other hand, is excellent defensively and controls the running game. And he's hitting over .300 against left-handed pitching. If he could even hit .240 against right-handers he'd be an All-Star candidate.


Santana needs to stay behind the dish. He's not even close to as bad as some fans are makign him out to be. He's pretty average when compared to the rest of hte league actually. Yeah he's no Marson, but he was coming off major knee surgery then forced to learn a new position on the fly. I'm confident he'll improve behind the plate. Always was considered an average-to-above average catcher when called up. Strong arm, needs to work on mechanics more.

If you're going to move Santana (still say no), to me LF makes way, way more sense than 1B. Kid has a very strong arm. Why waste it at 1B? He also is pretty damn athletic. He's not a truck on the bases (like Victor was). And while I know it's a few years off, who takes over in RF when Choo possibly leaves after 2013? Santana's arm would play in RF, not to mention his power/bat. Again, I keep him behind the plate for 2012....if he struggles again, consider a move to the OF in 2013. He actually played more OF in the minors than he did 3B or 1B.
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Re: Detroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Sept 5-7th, 2011

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:52 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Santana needs to stay behind the dish. He's not even close to as bad as some fans are makign him out to be. He's pretty average when compared to the rest of hte league actually. Yeah he's no Marson, but he was coming off major knee surgery then forced to learn a new position on the fly. I'm confident he'll improve behind the plate. Always was considered an average-to-above average catcher when called up. Strong arm, needs to work on mechanics more.

If you're going to move Santana (still say no), to me LF makes way, way more sense than 1B. Kid has a very strong arm. Why waste it at 1B? He also is pretty damn athletic. He's not a truck on the bases (like Victor was). And while I know it's a few years off, who takes over in RF when Choo possibly leaves after 2013? Santana's arm would play in RF, not to mention his power/bat. Again, I keep him behind the plate for 2012....if he struggles again, consider a move to the OF in 2013. He actually played more OF in the minors than he did 3B or 1B.


I think in the end that is what the FO will do. Keep him behind the plate. I would like the idea of Santana in the OF. I personally think the responsibility of handling the pitching staff has affected his progress at the plate and playing 1st base. In the end, I would hope the FO sees how valuable he is to the offense that they make the move to keep him in the line-up 156-162 games a year which would mean moving him. I believe that a catcher's #1 priority is defense and Marson provides that. I really don't care what my catcher hits as long as he handles all of the catching duties (because I believe that is winning baseball). Anyway I think you are right about the OF but that would require more development than having him work at 1B in the off-season.`
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