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Whose number one, Whose top ten

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby OhioBaseball » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:28 am

Chip Davis wrote:
Sol Solis wrote:While I understand the love going to Wolters, I can't see how you could rank him above Lindor. Sure, Wolters has performed well in a pretty advanced league, and because of his age it is very encouraging to see. However, coming into last years draft, Wolters was seen as just a solid all around player with no real weaknesses to his game. At the SS position that is a very valuable player to have. Lindor though, is supposed to have above average defense, run game, and hit tool, while projecting out to have average power for the position. There's a reason he was taken in the first round and Wolters was taken in the 3rd.


It's my personal opinion that Lindor will be lucky to do what Wolters has been doing. Again JMO.


Not high praise for Lindor. Wolters has had a pretty good season, but I'm a bit of concerned there is not much power there. His ISP (SLG-BA) is below .100.

I agree the high rankings of Wolters are too optimistic. He's got a long way to go to live up to the Pedroia comps; DP dominated the minors.

I'd take Lindor over Wolters any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lindor is small, too, but he's actually got a projectable body frame. Lindor has a lot of strength to gain, but with Wolters it's more what you see is what you get.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby smt1192 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:40 am

OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
Sol Solis wrote:While I understand the love going to Wolters, I can't see how you could rank him above Lindor. Sure, Wolters has performed well in a pretty advanced league, and because of his age it is very encouraging to see. However, coming into last years draft, Wolters was seen as just a solid all around player with no real weaknesses to his game. At the SS position that is a very valuable player to have. Lindor though, is supposed to have above average defense, run game, and hit tool, while projecting out to have average power for the position. There's a reason he was taken in the first round and Wolters was taken in the 3rd.


It's my personal opinion that Lindor will be lucky to do what Wolters has been doing. Again JMO.


Not high praise for Lindor. Wolters has had a pretty good season, but I'm a bit of concerned there is not much power there. His ISP (SLG-BA) is below .100.

I agree the high rankings of Wolters are too optimistic. He's got a long way to go to live up to the Pedroia comps; DP dominated the minors.

I'd take Lindor over Wolters any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lindor is small, too, but he's actually got a projectable body frame. Lindor has a lot of strength to gain, but with Wolters it's more what you see is what you get.


I agree, I saw Wolters in person and was surprised by how thick he was. By the way people were talking about him I thought he was going to be someone that would fill out. I can't see how he can get much bigger without losing mobility.

If Wolters is going to find power, it's going to come through adjusting his swing and playing more games. I don't think he will find it by getting stronger. Just my two cents.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:13 am

smt1192 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
Sol Solis wrote:While I understand the love going to Wolters, I can't see how you could rank him above Lindor. Sure, Wolters has performed well in a pretty advanced league, and because of his age it is very encouraging to see. However, coming into last years draft, Wolters was seen as just a solid all around player with no real weaknesses to his game. At the SS position that is a very valuable player to have. Lindor though, is supposed to have above average defense, run game, and hit tool, while projecting out to have average power for the position. There's a reason he was taken in the first round and Wolters was taken in the 3rd.


It's my personal opinion that Lindor will be lucky to do what Wolters has been doing. Again JMO.


Not high praise for Lindor. Wolters has had a pretty good season, but I'm a bit of concerned there is not much power there. His ISP (SLG-BA) is below .100.

I agree the high rankings of Wolters are too optimistic. He's got a long way to go to live up to the Pedroia comps; DP dominated the minors.

I'd take Lindor over Wolters any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lindor is small, too, but he's actually got a projectable body frame. Lindor has a lot of strength to gain, but with Wolters it's more what you see is what you get.


I agree, I saw Wolters in person and was surprised by how thick he was. By the way people were talking about him I thought he was going to be someone that would fill out. I can't see how he can get much bigger without losing mobility.

If Wolters is going to find power, it's going to come through adjusting his swing and playing more games. I don't think he will find it by getting stronger. Just my two cents.


For comparison sake:

Tony Wolters ... 5'10", 165 lbs.

Dustin Pedroia ... 5'8", 165 lbs.
Luigi Rodriguez ... 5'11" 160 lbs.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:15 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Not high praise for Lindor. Wolters has had a pretty good season, but I'm a bit of concerned there is not much power there. His ISP (SLG-BA) is below .100.

I agree the high rankings of Wolters are too optimistic. He's got a long way to go to live up to the Pedroia comps; DP dominated the minors.

I'd take Lindor over Wolters any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lindor is small, too, but he's actually got a projectable body frame. Lindor has a lot of strength to gain, but with Wolters it's more what you see is what you get.


I'm not a huge Wolters fan, but in fairness Pedroia was an advanced college bat out of Arizona State when he hit the minors. Wolters was a high school kid who missed the beginning of the season due to injury.

Agree completely though that Wolters has a long way togo to live up to Perdroia comps.

Also agree on Lindor over Wolters.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:40 am

JP_Frost wrote:I think some of you are undervaluing the fact that Rondon has had major surgery and hasn't pitched for over a year. Sure he has potential, but that is a serious issue and setback.


Agree 110%. He is still a prospect, but next year he is gonna struggle. Takes a full year, sometimes longer, to get the command back. 2013 will be his real year to show himself (a la Hagadone this year).
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby petes999 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:15 am

But what are they going to do wtih Hector as next year is his 4th option year (with injury). And, thus in 2013 he is out of options and needs to prove himself at the bigs ... unless we try to defer him this year and hope no one takes a flyer on him. Yet, if we were going to do that, wouldn't it have been better to do it last year?
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:22 am

Sol Solis wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
It's my personal opinion that Lindor will be lucky to do what Wolters has been doing. Again JMO.


Since I haven't seen either of them play (and I doubt anyone here really has in Lindor's case), I guess my question is more whether this mindset is an indictment on Lindor or praise for Wolters?


Sol, it's praise for Wolters. I hope Lindor flys by him in play and rankings, he would definately be the Indians #1 prospect. I just think the chances are slim since Wolters has been so good.

The odds are against him is probably a better way to put it.
Last edited by Chip Davis on Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:11 am

Tribes going to have a tough call on Rondon and DLC IMO could see the Tribe DFA one or both (unlikely) if it comes to a roster crunch but truthfully Rondon could be a bullpen arm by 2013. I expect the Tribe will make at least one major trade this offseason and moving a cpl these guys in a pkg deal can't be ruled out.

Wolters is a high rd pk, mature for 19, advanced as a hitting prospect, plays a premium position, can bat top of the order, and has good speed. I've not been a huge fan, not a hater either but kid has been impressive. For his age in comparison to the league 21-22 he's doing quite well. My honest opinion is Wolters may end up as a stud 2b out of necessity bc Lindor will likely press him over. Lindor has to get signed but adds a top of the order bat with potential to add superior defense, good pop and speed. Lindor could develop into a perennial all star at a premium position. Ive heard a lot of Omar comps but Lindor will likely surpass Vizquels power. Wolters could become an excellent SS as well. Time will tell. Wolters should be a level above Lindor next yr although there is potential they could see the field at the same time.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:46 pm

They definately won't DFL Rondon or DLC. When Rondon comes back to form, remember most if not all come back stronger than before TJS, he could be in the top 5. DLC has that potential also, but needs to find better control. I doubt they move either to a bullpen role due the depth already there. Look for both to have a bounce back season in 2012. Put A. Perez on that list too.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:54 pm

smt1192 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
Sol Solis wrote:While I understand the love going to Wolters, I can't see how you could rank him above Lindor. Sure, Wolters has performed well in a pretty advanced league, and because of his age it is very encouraging to see. However, coming into last years draft, Wolters was seen as just a solid all around player with no real weaknesses to his game. At the SS position that is a very valuable player to have. Lindor though, is supposed to have above average defense, run game, and hit tool, while projecting out to have average power for the position. There's a reason he was taken in the first round and Wolters was taken in the 3rd.


It's my personal opinion that Lindor will be lucky to do what Wolters has been doing. Again JMO.


Not high praise for Lindor. Wolters has had a pretty good season, but I'm a bit of concerned there is not much power there. His ISP (SLG-BA) is below .100.

I agree the high rankings of Wolters are too optimistic. He's got a long way to go to live up to the Pedroia comps; DP dominated the minors.

I'd take Lindor over Wolters any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lindor is small, too, but he's actually got a projectable body frame. Lindor has a lot of strength to gain, but with Wolters it's more what you see is what you get.


I agree, I saw Wolters in person and was surprised by how thick he was. By the way people were talking about him I thought he was going to be someone that would fill out. I can't see how he can get much bigger without losing mobility.

If Wolters is going to find power, it's going to come through adjusting his swing and playing more games. I don't think he will find it by getting stronger. Just my two cents.


every young athlete gets stronger as they mature and I think that the strength peek is mid to late 30's. However it is usually at the cost of mobility and they are more injury prone obviously. This is why most power lifters are 33-42.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:20 pm

@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby jellis » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:26 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.


DLC seems to be viewed as a pen option and for a guy who has been on the 40 and is yet to hit AA, I am pretty sure he will get DFAed
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:53 pm

I'm a little surprised no one has brought up the Hoynes article related to the Tribe pitching still in the minors.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... _stil.html

I have some personal disagreements with the ranking & some of the list aspects (not including Rondon, Knapp or Alex Perez) in general, but I'm pleased that Joe Martinez & Corey Kluber were not listed.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby jellis » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:03 am

MadThinker88 wrote:I'm a little surprised no one has brought up the Hoynes article related to the Tribe pitching still in the minors.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... _stil.html

I have some personal disagreements with the ranking & some of the list aspects (not including Rondon, Knapp or Alex Perez) in general, but I'm pleased that Joe Martinez & Corey Kluber were not listed.


Showed a very MLB ready approach, and a surface knowledge only of the lower levels. I think most of this board knows the minors better than he does
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:24 am

jellis wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.


DLC seems to be viewed as a pen option and for a guy who has been on the 40 and is yet to hit AA, I am pretty sure he will get DFAed

Pretty sure you meant AAA Jeff. Not sure i really care about DLC but suspect he would be claimed. Two good pitches even if his command is lousy. More than that, I do not see any overwhelming problems with the 40 where we lose any high level prospects. Just about ther same risk as last year from what I see. :pleasantry:
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby jellis » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:09 am

indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.


DLC seems to be viewed as a pen option and for a guy who has been on the 40 and is yet to hit AA, I am pretty sure he will get DFAed

Pretty sure you meant AAA Jeff. Not sure i really care about DLC but suspect he would be claimed. Two good pitches even if his command is lousy. More than that, I do not see any overwhelming problems with the 40 where we lose any high level prospects. Just about ther same risk as last year from what I see. :pleasantry:



your right meant AAA, I have never been huge on DLC and I see a loogy right now with questionable command. Just not sure thats worth a 40 man spot, have not looked into much but think DLC is way down the line of pen arms
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:42 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.
There was a notation regarding KdlC in an older article..Not sure if it applies:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... -cruz.html

6'5" 23 year old lefties don't get DFA'd often, unless they're Josh Hamilton and they have a heroin filled syringe with a needle sticking out of their arm...

KdlC.. certainly needs more time to develop.. even though he's been "around awhile".. a while longer is needed..
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby jellis » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:25 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.
There was a notation regarding KdlC in an older article..Not sure if it applies:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... -cruz.html

6'5" 23 year old lefties don't get DFA'd often, unless they're Josh Hamilton and they have a heroin filled syringe with a needle sticking out of their arm...

KdlC.. certainly needs more time to develop.. even though he's been "around awhile".. a while longer is needed..



doesnt matter how big if you can't succeed in AA
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby daingean » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:41 am

jellis wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:@ Chip Davis... Tony alluded to the Tribe possibly DFA DLC in the offseason. DLC has had alot of control problems at some point these two will have to be rostered (25) or DFA. That's where the Tribe could be forced into moving Rondon and / or DLC to the pen or part of a pkg in a tr.
There was a notation regarding KdlC in an older article..Not sure if it applies:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... -cruz.html

6'5" 23 year old lefties don't get DFA'd often, unless they're Josh Hamilton and they have a heroin filled syringe with a needle sticking out of their arm...

KdlC.. certainly needs more time to develop.. even though he's been "around awhile".. a while longer is needed..



doesnt matter how big if you can't succeed in AA


KdlC, has just returned (this year) from Tommy John surgery. Looking at past history, TJ pitchers take about a year to get their control back. He certainly has an abundance of talent. Add in the fact that tall lefties develop late (i.e. Randy Johnson), I am not all that concerned with this year's statistics as long as he is making progress. The real issue in all of this is the option clock which is running on this kid. DFA'ing him this off season may be a good idea as he still NEEDS seasoning in the minors. An unprotected KdlC this off season may not be picked up- but if he gets it together next off season he may need to be protected.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:53 am

De La Cruz has not had Tommy John surgery. There was a scare in 2009 that he would need it as two starts into the season he had an elbow sprain and was shutdown for some time.....but he has not had surgery. If the Indians need a roster spot, I think he definitely could be removed at some point. Same with Rondon. Unfortunately, sometimes you just run out of time with some guys.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:01 am

TonyIPI wrote:De La Cruz has not had Tommy John surgery. There was a scare in 2009 that he would need it as two starts into the season he had an elbow sprain and was shutdown for some time.....but he has not had surgery. If the Indians need a roster spot, I think he definitely could be removed at some point. Same with Rondon. Unfortunately, sometimes you just run out of time with some guys.

So the article about the fourth year option.. good through 2013 does not apply?.. :s_dunno
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:00 pm

The Paul Hoynes appraisal of the Indians minor league system was followed by Sheldon Ocker's Sunday editorial column making the claim that the Indians made a bad deal acquiring Ubaldo Jimenez for Drew Pomeranz and Alex White.. So the two largest circulation news papers that specifically write about the Indians are now on record thinking Chris Antonetti and the Indians front office got it wrong..

What were the chances both would come to that conclusion?????? :wacko:
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:06 pm

DLC andRondon could just get caught up in the numbers crunch. They are both intriguing arms and I'm certainly not an advocate of dumping either, but time and numbers aren't always on a players side. Personally I'd love to both succeed with the Tribe but odds are not in their favor. DLC could be a good BOR pitcher at some pt and possibly a very good Lefty out of the pen ala Raffy Perez. Rondon is just caught in the numbers gm talent to be a 3 or dominate bullpen arm IMO but it takes time to heal. Tribe could 'quicken' his pace back by moving him to the bullpen but it's already loaded. I wouldn't be shocked to see either as parts of a pkg for a bat this offseason.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Chip Davis » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:06 pm

So we're saying that the Tribe should DFA 2 pitchers that are 22 and 23 years old with the potential to be solid MOR starters or more for who's roster spot? Both sustained injuries that have a high success rate of recovery. I'm stickin' with them being rostered.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:55 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:De La Cruz has not had Tommy John surgery. There was a scare in 2009 that he would need it as two starts into the season he had an elbow sprain and was shutdown for some time.....but he has not had surgery. If the Indians need a roster spot, I think he definitely could be removed at some point. Same with Rondon. Unfortunately, sometimes you just run out of time with some guys.

So the article about the fourth year option.. good through 2013 does not apply?.. :s_dunno


You don't need surgery to get a 4th option. It is based on the amount of days you are on the active roster. Without looking at it I believe a player needs to be active at least 90 days in the season, and if not, then they are a candidate for a 4th option year.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:18 pm

I guess this is clear as mud. :crazy: I don't suggest they release DLC or Rondon. I think they should stick with both just suggesting it could happen. However I insist they release Kearns NOW. :biggrin:
I'm actually a fan of DLC and Rondon but with the sheer number of arms someone is going to get caught in the crunch that's the harsh reality of what we call baseball.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby PEngle39 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:04 pm

As much as i like the talk about DLC and Rondon, etc. Jim Callis at BA released his Indians top-10. I have a very similar ranking, especially in the top 3. Here is how Callis ranks them......

1. Francisco Lindor (SS)- Pure SS, sky-high ceiling.
2. Dillon Howard (RHP)- First round talent, heavy sinker.
3. Tony Wolters (SS)- Advanced line-drive bat, Lindor will push him to 2B.
4. Nick Hagadone (LHP)- Plus fastball, slider. Improved command.
5. Felix Sterling (RHP)- 18 year old in low-A. Fastball, slider combination.
6. Ronnie Rodriguez (SS)- Teenager in low-A. Toolsy potential more interesting than stats thus far.
7. Luigi Rodriguez (OF)- 18 year old in low-A. Speed and pop.
8. CC Lee (RHP)- 96 MPH fastball, 87 K's in 61 IP's in upper minors.
9. Levon Washington (OF)- Carl Crawford comps, another teenager in low-A, struggled thus far.
10. Chun Chen (C)- Hit his way up the rankings, needs to improve behind the plate.

All in all, not a bad list. Callis mentioned Knapp and Weglarz as two prospects that have had their seasons derailed by injuries, so hopefully we see a rebound next year. I'm a little surprised there wasn't any mention of Barnes with his success this season as a starter in the high minors. It would be interesting to see where/if Dillon Peters would land on this list if he were to sign. I think that with Hagadone's improved command, the Indians should give him an opportunity to start in spring training since he has been known to have front-of-the-rotation stuff.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:17 pm

@ PEngle39... thanks for posting the list. Welcome to the board. Interesting I would include Barnes top 5 and McAllister top 10. Maybe it's Tribe fan bias but these are two guys who have performed at a high level.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Sol Solis » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:30 pm

It's good to see some of the young guys like the Rodriguez's already moving their way into the top 10 for a well known national writer. It's definitely a good sign that they are already starting to get noticed despite not having great stats (even though they are pretty impressive for both being 18 years old in Low A).

As for Barnes and McCallister, I agree that they should both be top 10 guys, especially Barnes. A 23 year old left with strikeout stuff in this system is definitely top 5 worthy.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:05 pm

Isnt Barnes out for 9 months. Cant have a guy with that serious of an injury in the top 10 IMO. He certainly would have been though. That list once again shows that outside of some relievers the top players in the system are extremely young.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:14 pm

Yes Barnes is out for 8-9 mths. He'll be ready for start on next season. It's not an arm but legs are just as important to a pitcher. Knapp is another guy who could make that list but the shldr hasn't been 100% yet. Not a shocked he had to have the second surgery, was actually a high probability and fairly common. Barnes performed well this season and really isn't going to lose developmental time unless the tribe would have sent him to winter ball.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby go_tribe » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:32 pm

I like the list, but does anyone else think R.Rodriguez should be that high? L.Rodriguez I agree with but doesnt Ronny remind anyone of Carlos Rivero? Not that I've seen Ronny play yet just wondering based on the tools comparison I've read.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Sol Solis » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:39 pm

Just going by body type R-Rod is nothing like Rivero. Rivero was more of a Jhonny Peralta type at short as he's 6'3", 210+ lbs. I think Ronnie would have more of the quickness needed to stick at the position. However, like you I haven't seen him play.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby go_tribe » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:09 pm

I hope to see him thursday night, if he really is this legit of a prospect we really have a loaded middle infield with RR, Kipnis, Wolters, Lindor and Phelps
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Chip Davis » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:06 am

Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:37 am

Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.

yeah, kind of silly to mention all those names in low A and overlook Aguilar among others. :pleasantry:
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:57 pm

Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


In fairness to him, I think it was a quick list. I know my quick list now will be a lot different after the proper research is done. He missed guys like Barnes, Adams, Phelps, etc who all are deserving of Top 10 consideration over some of the guys he put in there.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:00 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


In fairness to him, I think it was a quick list. I know my quick list now will be a lot different after the proper research is done. He missed guys like Barnes, Adams, Phelps, etc who all are deserving of Top 10 consideration over some of the guys he put in there.


Austin Adams still seems like a bullpen guy to me.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:20 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


In fairness to him, I think it was a quick list. I know my quick list now will be a lot different after the proper research is done. He missed guys like Barnes, Adams, Phelps, etc who all are deserving of Top 10 consideration over some of the guys he put in there.


Austin Adams still seems like a bullpen guy to me.


Same, while I think Adams has some upside, I ultimately see him as a 7th inning reliever.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby BrianM » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:05 pm

PEngle39 wrote:As much as i like the talk about DLC and Rondon, etc. Jim Callis at BA released his Indians top-10. I have a very similar ranking, especially in the top 3. Here is how Callis ranks them......

1. Francisco Lindor (SS)- Pure SS, sky-high ceiling.
2. Dillon Howard (RHP)- First round talent, heavy sinker.
3. Tony Wolters (SS)- Advanced line-drive bat, Lindor will push him to 2B.
4. Nick Hagadone (LHP)- Plus fastball, slider. Improved command.
5. Felix Sterling (RHP)- 18 year old in low-A. Fastball, slider combination.
6. Ronnie Rodriguez (SS)- Teenager in low-A. Toolsy potential more interesting than stats thus far.
7. Luigi Rodriguez (OF)- 18 year old in low-A. Speed and pop.
8. CC Lee (RHP)- 96 MPH fastball, 87 K's in 61 IP's in upper minors.
9. Levon Washington (OF)- Carl Crawford comps, another teenager in low-A, struggled thus far.
10. Chun Chen (C)- Hit his way up the rankings, needs to improve behind the plate.

All in all, not a bad list. Callis mentioned Knapp and Weglarz as two prospects that have had their seasons derailed by injuries, so hopefully we see a rebound next year. I'm a little surprised there wasn't any mention of Barnes with his success this season as a starter in the high minors. It would be interesting to see where/if Dillon Peters would land on this list if he were to sign. I think that with Hagadone's improved command, the Indians should give him an opportunity to start in spring training since he has been known to have front-of-the-rotation stuff.



I would actually expect this kind of list from a Baseball America writer. They always rank potential upside higher than a player who is proven but already reached their ceiling. If you look through our system right now, our most interesting prospects are definitely the low A players because we really don't know what they are capable of, we just know they are very talented. The only player he really forgot was Barnes... He would be #3 on my list after Lindor and Howard.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:13 pm

BrianM wrote:
PEngle39 wrote:As much as i like the talk about DLC and Rondon, etc. Jim Callis at BA released his Indians top-10. I have a very similar ranking, especially in the top 3. Here is how Callis ranks them......

1. Francisco Lindor (SS)- Pure SS, sky-high ceiling.
2. Dillon Howard (RHP)- First round talent, heavy sinker.
3. Tony Wolters (SS)- Advanced line-drive bat, Lindor will push him to 2B.
4. Nick Hagadone (LHP)- Plus fastball, slider. Improved command.
5. Felix Sterling (RHP)- 18 year old in low-A. Fastball, slider combination.
6. Ronnie Rodriguez (SS)- Teenager in low-A. Toolsy potential more interesting than stats thus far.
7. Luigi Rodriguez (OF)- 18 year old in low-A. Speed and pop.
8. CC Lee (RHP)- 96 MPH fastball, 87 K's in 61 IP's in upper minors.
9. Levon Washington (OF)- Carl Crawford comps, another teenager in low-A, struggled thus far.
10. Chun Chen (C)- Hit his way up the rankings, needs to improve behind the plate.

All in all, not a bad list. Callis mentioned Knapp and Weglarz as two prospects that have had their seasons derailed by injuries, so hopefully we see a rebound next year. I'm a little surprised there wasn't any mention of Barnes with his success this season as a starter in the high minors. It would be interesting to see where/if Dillon Peters would land on this list if he were to sign. I think that with Hagadone's improved command, the Indians should give him an opportunity to start in spring training since he has been known to have front-of-the-rotation stuff.



I would actually expect this kind of list from a Baseball America writer. They always rank potential upside higher than a player who is proven but already reached their ceiling. If you look through our system right now, our most interesting prospects are definitely the low A players because we really don't know what they are capable of, we just know they are very talented. The only player he really forgot was Barnes... He would be #3 on my list after Lindor and Howard.


Barnes, Howard, and Lindor ALL ahead of Wolters...? :wacko:
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


I was about to tell the poster it was the best list I've seen, but then read it was callis'. He did a good job.

Aguilar is not on the list, but that guy had an abnormally high babip in low a. Also applaud the inclusion of Ronny Rodriguez. I know for a fact some scouts prefer him to wolters.

Guys at baseball prospectus have seen some individual teams' prospect lists and say there is a LOT of variability from one teams list to the next. You will get lots of different opinions on prospects.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Chip Davis » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:15 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.

yeah, kind of silly to mention all those names in low A and overlook Aguilar among others. :pleasantry:


My sentiments exactly.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:48 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


I was about to tell the poster it was the best list I've seen, but then read it was callis'. He did a good job.

Aguilar is not on the list, but that guy had an abnormally high babip in low a. Also applaud the inclusion of Ronny Rodriguez. I know for a fact some scouts prefer him to wolters.

Guys at baseball prospectus have seen some individual teams' prospect lists and say there is a LOT of variability from one teams list to the next. You will get lots of different opinions on prospects.


You mean YOU prefer Ronnie to Wolters. Pretty sure you've made that known a number of times.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:10 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


I was about to tell the poster it was the best list I've seen, but then read it was callis'. He did a good job.

Aguilar is not on the list, but that guy had an abnormally high babip in low a. Also applaud the inclusion of Ronny Rodriguez. I know for a fact some scouts prefer him to wolters.

Guys at baseball prospectus have seen some individual teams' prospect lists and say there is a LOT of variability from one teams list to the next. You will get lots of different opinions on prospects.


You mean YOU prefer Ronnie to Wolters. Pretty sure you've made that known a number of times.


I don't know that I'd take Rodriguez. If I saw the two at a showcase on one day, I'd easily take Rodriguez. However, his BB/K ratio is really bad and the K's have been increasing lately. Wolters is safer and I'd take him over Ronny but its close (less frightening of a walk total and I'd take Ronny). I've been disappointed in Wolters' lack of power, but I'm holding out hope that it's b/c his hand has not fully healed. He's small without much projection, but I think there is more power in him than he's demonstrated (but not a ton more). Kind of like that he's a grinder, too. I think he still has a lot to prove, however.

I factually know there are scouts that prefer Rodriguez to Wolters - I used to do work for one of them years ago. Not every scout is going to like Wolters. He's undersized, isn't an agile athlete, arm is fringe, isn't projectable. He didn't get his bonus b/c of his tools or projection, though. He's a ball player-type and can handle the bat.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:31 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


I was about to tell the poster it was the best list I've seen, but then read it was callis'. He did a good job.

Aguilar is not on the list, but that guy had an abnormally high babip in low a. Also applaud the inclusion of Ronny Rodriguez. I know for a fact some scouts prefer him to wolters.

Guys at baseball prospectus have seen some individual teams' prospect lists and say there is a LOT of variability from one teams list to the next. You will get lots of different opinions on prospects.


You mean YOU prefer Ronnie to Wolters. Pretty sure you've made that known a number of times.


I don't know that I'd take Rodriguez. If I saw the two at a showcase on one day, I'd easily take Rodriguez. However, his BB/K ratio is really bad and the K's have been increasing lately. Wolters is safer and I'd take him over Ronny but its close (less frightening of a walk total and I'd take Ronny). I've been disappointed in Wolters' lack of power, but I'm holding out hope that it's b/c his hand has not fully healed. He's small without much projection, but I think there is more power in him than he's demonstrated (but not a ton more). Kind of like that he's a grinder, too. I think he still has a lot to prove, however.

I factually know there are scouts that prefer Rodriguez to Wolters - I used to do work for one of them years ago. Not every scout is going to like Wolters. He's undersized, isn't an agile athlete, arm is fringe, isn't projectable. He didn't get his bonus b/c of his tools or projection, though. He's a ball player-type and can handle the bat.

We must speak to different scouts OB. When I was at the AFLAC game for Wolters two years ago, I sat with about 20 scouts who thought Wolters would develop into a fine player and didn't see the shortcomings that you mention. Neither did I when I watched him about ten times in HS as well. Nearly every scout at the game thought his gap power would develop as he matures. For you to base these observations on an injured player who has not healed completely is your prerogative but seems a little shortsighted to me for someone who generally posts better than this. :sorry:
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:10 am

I don't work in baseball and I don't really talk to scouts much at all. My passion is in other stuff that probably none of you would find interesting. I did stuff years ago and know a couple people, but Im not all that close with them anymore. I am ABSOLUTELY not in the loop on this stuff, but I inquired and don't think my comments are all that off-base. Comp him to middle infielders in the major leagues and you may see more of where I'm coming from. When I say fringe or average, or below average, that's major league tools, not how they look vs. other minor leaguers or amateurs. Not the only person that thinks this way. Kipnis isn't a guy with major league size or run/throw tools, but the guy gets it done -- Wolters could eventually be similar. I like Wolters and I think I had some positive stuff to say about him. (btw - Jason Kipnis was an OF'er in college not much longer than two years ago and is now playing 2b in the major leagues. Pretty crazy when you think about it. Great work by Kipnis and the Indians on that draft pick). Ink, I don't think we're all that far apart on Wolters. I seem to have been painted as a Wolters hater, but that's not really true. Im probably lower on Wolters than most on this site, but I recognize him as a good prospect.

Regardless, just now listening to Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks and they commented on the Ubaldo trade. Goldstein said the physical on Ubaldo was very comprehensive and liked the deal for the Indians. Indians really did their due diligence on Ubaldo's health. Both talked about the Indians system and asked, "Who is the Indians #1 prospect?" Goldstein eventually said it'd be Lindor "by a mile" if he signs. I agree he's the #1 guy, but not by such a wide margin.
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:10 am

OhioBaseball wrote:I don't work in baseball and I don't really talk to scouts much at all. My passion is in other stuff that probably none of you would find interesting. I did stuff years ago and know a couple people, but Im not all that close with them anymore. I am ABSOLUTELY not in the loop on this stuff, but I inquired and don't think my comments are all that off-base. Comp him to middle infielders in the major leagues and you may see more of where I'm coming from. When I say fringe or average, or below average, that's major league tools, not how they look vs. other minor leaguers or amateurs. Not the only person that thinks this way. Kipnis isn't a guy with major league size or run/throw tools, but the guy gets it done -- Wolters could eventually be similar. I like Wolters and I think I had some positive stuff to say about him. (btw - Jason Kipnis was an OF'er in college not much longer than two years ago and is now playing 2b in the major leagues. Pretty crazy when you think about it. Great work by Kipnis and the Indians on that draft pick). Ink, I don't think we're all that far apart on Wolters. I seem to have been painted as a Wolters hater, but that's not really true. Im probably lower on Wolters than most on this site, but I recognize him as a good prospect.

Regardless, just now listening to Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks and they commented on the Ubaldo trade. Goldstein said the physical on Ubaldo was very comprehensive and liked the deal for the Indians. Indians really did their due diligence on Ubaldo's health. Both talked about the Indians system and asked, "Who is the Indians #1 prospect?" Goldstein eventually said it'd be Lindor "by a mile" if he signs. I agree he's the #1 guy, but not by such a wide margin.

I cannot speak for everyone but I certainly do not think of you as a Wolters hater. In his case, I question your source of information. That is all! Where he winds up on defense I cannot say with any degree of certainty. But I do not rule out SS because he covers more ground than one expects since he is very perceptive when it comes to baseball. But I do not believe he has the upside potential of Lindor at SS. I think Lindor is more likely to stay at SS but he may possibly grow out of the position as well. As far as Goldstein goes, I am not impressed much with his evaluations. None of these guys that write this stuff for a living are any good except for Tony's expertise with the Indians. Just talking heads for the most part IMO. Sometimes they are right. Even blind hogs find acorns once in a while. :friends:
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby Edible14 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:33 am

OhioBaseball wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:Anyone else think Callis' list sucks? I don't think he did his homework.


I was about to tell the poster it was the best list I've seen, but then read it was callis'. He did a good job.

Aguilar is not on the list, but that guy had an abnormally high babip in low a. Also applaud the inclusion of Ronny Rodriguez. I know for a fact some scouts prefer him to wolters.

Guys at baseball prospectus have seen some individual teams' prospect lists and say there is a LOT of variability from one teams list to the next. You will get lots of different opinions on prospects.


You know, I used to use this argument all the time, but the sabermetric community seems to think that BABIP means nothing for batters. If you use BABIP, you end up having to say that Adam Everett and Luis Valbuena aren't "bad" hitters, they're just unlucky... which is clearly stupid. It just so happens that most "bad" hitters have a low BABIP and "good" hitters tend to have an above .300 BABIP (for instance, ARod's career BABIP is .331, Pujols' is .311).
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Re: Whose number one, Whose top ten

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:46 pm

Some batters are high babip guys, consistently. Certainly some skill is neglected in the stat. Aguilar's babip in lake county was above average by more than 2 standard deviations, and significantly higher than his 2010 figure. So i think its an outlier. He k's a lot and think he's probably more like a 260-270 hitter. Babip is often applied too often and seems to be a flavor of the week kind of stat, but here I think it's applicable.

Regarding wolters, I'm interested to see where he ranks in the nypl prospect rankings by BA. Think he'll be 5 to 10 on the list.
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