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Beyond the Fukodome

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:13 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:At the end of the day, the Indians have acquired a player who is above average to very good defensively in RF and CF. He is a player with excellent bat to ball skills and a very good OBP. He may not possess the impact bat of carlos beltran, but he does give the indians a significant upgrade in the OF at a time when they are in dire need of an OF.

If he lives up to his numbers, he will be a more than welcome addition to the Indians and gives Indians fans a good reason to look forward to seeing him at bat..

At the end of the day, this is a good trade for the Indians in their quest to secure a spot in the post season in 2011. Good job by Antonetti and the front office.. :good:


So far in July the Indians have lost four games by one run and four more by two runs. Fuko gets on base at a .374 clip, over 100 points higher than Buck/Kearns as Tony pointed out. He may not be an impact player, but his ability to get on base, especially if they bat him in front of Hafner, could make the difference between winning and losing in one, two, or even three games per month, which would be 3-5 games by the end of season. As close as this race has been and with no indications the Tigers or anybody else will pull away, it's possible this deal could be the difference.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:16 pm

John Hart's comments echo what you are saying (he was on WTAM yesterday).. more traffic on the basepaths is a good thing.. with more chances to score.. the runs will come... Fukudome's history has shown the ability to put up good AB's and get on base..can't hurt...
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:21 pm

I think they'll bat Fukodome 6th after Santana and before Chisenhall. i wouldn't mess with the top of the order.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:28 pm

Chiefroy wrote:I think they'll bat Fukodome 6th after Santana and before Chisenhall. i wouldn't mess with the top of the order.
He's versatile enough to bat in several locations in the order...

So, yes.. I like him in the sixth spot in the order as well. His BA w/ runners on base is about 30 points higher than his overall BA.. it's about 40 points higher w/RISP or w/RISP and two outs... As a lead off hitter, getting on base at a .374 clip is as good as anyone on the team. He's just a versatile hitter..
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:51 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:At the end of the day, the Indians have acquired a player who is above average to very good defensively in RF and CF.


You sure about that? Everything I have seen so far says he is below average to average in the outfield. All his metrics are terrible.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:03 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:At the end of the day, the Indians have acquired a player who is above average to very good defensively in RF and CF.


You sure about that? Everything I have seen so far says he is below average to average in the outfield. All his metrics are terrible.

From the number of times I've seen him..he makes all the routine plays.. and that's saying something in the wind at Wrigley Field.. He has a good arm.. not Shin-soo Choo good, but accurate. He plays a solid/fundamentally sound OF position.

As far as defensive metrics are concerned.. They are what they are.. btw, they are the same one that tell you that Asdrubal Cabrera is a poor defensive SS..well, we all know of only one person who still believes that.. Everyone else has been blown away by his defense.. same thing with Fukudome. He makes the routine plays look routine.. He won't embarass himself with the leather..
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:06 pm

If we are successful in getting Ludwick, then Fukudome becomes nothing more than the 4th outfielder when Choo returns.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:10 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:If we are successful in getting Ludwick, then Fukudome becomes nothing more than the 4th outfielder when Choo returns.


Or they become platoon partners.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:10 pm

I don't mind this deal as little was given up. My question is why do you want Fukadome, Brantley, and Carrera on the team all at once? On a side note I hope Beltran fails miserably and loses any value he has as a player. If they aquire Ludwick then the outfield should be Ludwick in left, Brantley in center, and Fukadome in right at all times except for scheduled days off.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:43 pm

Chip Davis wrote:I don't mind this deal as little was given up. My question is why do you want Fukadome, Brantley, and Carrera on the team all at once? On a side note I hope Beltran fails miserably and loses any value he has as a player. If they aquire Ludwick then the outfield should be Ludwick in left, Brantley in center, and Fukadome in right at all times except for scheduled days off.

Pretty much my thinking too Chip. When and if Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then I feel confident the two players out are Carerra and Kearns. I am wondering what will happen if Nick Johnson comes us before 9/1. The most logical move to me is to bring up jason Donald as well and drop OCab and Hannahan. But let's wait to see if and who on this other ballplayer. :pleasantry:
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:19 pm

indianinkslinger wrote: When and if Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then I feel confident the two players out are Carerra and Kearns. I am wondering what will happen if Nick Johnson comes us before 9/1. The most logical move to me is to bring up jason Donald as well and drop OCab and Hannahan. But let's wait to see if and who on this other ballplayer. :pleasantry:


If we trade for Ludwick and eventually Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then the starting OF will be Brantley, Sizemore, and Choo. Ludwick and Fuko will be on the bench. So why did we give up prospects for these guys?
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:23 pm

agree, at this point trading for another rental makes little sense...too little too late...should have forced/pushed for a deal when Sizemore went down, overpaying or not....I'd focus on a FOR/MOR (#2,#3) SP who's under control the next 2 seasons
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:32 pm

This.... ??

1 Carrera/Kip - he should get a cpl games in the lead off spot - Kinsler style...I like him there based on what we have.
2 Fukudome/Brantley
3 Acab
4 Hafner
5 Santana
6 Brantley/Fukudome
7 LaPorta - the guy who could make a HUGE differnce if he can step it up.....
8 Chiz
9 Kip/Carrera
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:59 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:At the end of the day, the Indians have acquired a player who is above average to very good defensively in RF and CF.


You sure about that? Everything I have seen so far says he is below average to average in the outfield. All his metrics are terrible.


Actually most of his defensive metrics are positives (at least in RF). Total Zone is +18. FRAA has been positive 3 out of 4 years in the OF (+4 career and positive this year). Defensive Runs Saved in RF is +5 (+1 in CF). His Defensive WAR in the NL was a League Leading 1.7 this year at the time of the trade (via Baseball-Reference).

His UZR is bad, but career of basically zero shows he's about average at worst in RF.

I wouldn't say he's above average in CF, but in RF....at worst average but mostly above throughout his career.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby ironmike » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:51 am

Still want to see Jason Donald here. Ditto Nick Johnson when healthy. Johnson automatically goes to 1B and starts when he is healthy. Would be a significant upgrade. So far I don't see a huge separation between Donald and Kipnis. Like the way Donald plays the game.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:11 am

Prosecutor wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote: When and if Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then I feel confident the two players out are Carerra and Kearns. I am wondering what will happen if Nick Johnson comes us before 9/1. The most logical move to me is to bring up jason Donald as well and drop OCab and Hannahan. But let's wait to see if and who on this other ballplayer. :pleasantry:


If we trade for Ludwick and eventually Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then the starting OF will be Brantley, Sizemore, and Choo. Ludwick and Fuko will be on the bench. So why did we give up prospects for these guys?

Don't you think that is a pretty big IF when it comes to Choo and Sizemore? From what we are told now, it does not look like Sizemore has been healthy all season even though we were told he was at the time. And Choo has not played well offensively or defensively when he was healthy. Neither hit LHP much either. :pleasantry:
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:52 am

ironmike wrote:Still want to see Jason Donald here. Ditto Nick Johnson when healthy. Johnson automatically goes to 1B and starts when he is healthy. Would be a significant upgrade. So far I don't see a huge separation between Donald and Kipnis. Like the way Donald plays the game.


Nick Johnson imo is a nice case of "the grass is greener on the other side" logic. I wouldn't get your hopes up.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby ironmike » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:11 pm

No, being the Indians are trying to improve incrementally, if Johnson is healthy, he is a better player than LaPorta. LaPorta has been extremely disappointing and he's pressing. Hopefully we will see him soon in Cleveland.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:02 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
ironmike wrote:Still want to see Jason Donald here. Ditto Nick Johnson when healthy. Johnson automatically goes to 1B and starts when he is healthy. Would be a significant upgrade. So far I don't see a huge separation between Donald and Kipnis. Like the way Donald plays the game.


Nick Johnson imo is a nice case of "the grass is greener on the other side" logic. I wouldn't get your hopes up.


Exactly. Would be better than some of the crapola on the bench, but not much of an offensive upgrade right now over LaPorta based on what Johnson has shown in rehab.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby timdav » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:41 pm

'64 Browns, '48 Indians. Never for the Cavs. We all know the drill.

Will it ever be our turn?
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:52 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:
ironmike wrote:Still want to see Jason Donald here. Ditto Nick Johnson when healthy. Johnson automatically goes to 1B and starts when he is healthy. Would be a significant upgrade. So far I don't see a huge separation between Donald and Kipnis. Like the way Donald plays the game.


Nick Johnson imo is a nice case of "the grass is greener on the other side" logic. I wouldn't get your hopes up.


Exactly. Would be better than some of the crapola on the bench, but not much of an offensive upgrade right now over LaPorta based on what Johnson has shown in rehab.

+1. Johnson is not better now IMO and at least 2-3 weeks before he can be ML from what I see. But I see changes on the horizon whether or not the Indians hold together for a run this year. :friends:
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:05 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote: When and if Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then I feel confident the two players out are Carerra and Kearns. I am wondering what will happen if Nick Johnson comes us before 9/1. The most logical move to me is to bring up jason Donald as well and drop OCab and Hannahan. But let's wait to see if and who on this other ballplayer. :pleasantry:


If we trade for Ludwick and eventually Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then the starting OF will be Brantley, Sizemore, and Choo. Ludwick and Fuko will be on the bench. So why did we give up prospects for these guys?

Don't you think that is a pretty big IF when it comes to Choo and Sizemore? From what we are told now, it does not look like Sizemore has been healthy all season even though we were told he was at the time. And Choo has not played well offensively or defensively when he was healthy. Neither hit LHP much either. :pleasantry:
I, for one, expect both Choo & Grady to come back from the hernia/knee bruise in two, three or four weeks, fully healthy and playing like he did prior to the day they were injured.

The injury to Grady was alleged to have occurred on May 10th against the Baltimore Orioles. At that time, Grady was holding strong with a three slash line of .282/.333/.974. Subsequent to then.. not so good.. Choo had clearly hit rock bottom as he was hitting a paltry .221... after that low point, around May 10th (just by coincidence) Choo really did start to "improve".. albeit, not great. He was vastly superior to his replacements, which should come as no shock to anyone. In Choo's last 130 AB before his injury, he was hitting .270..

Having a group of OF'ers that can hit .282, .270 and .275 (Brantley) while playing stellar defense.. would have negated the need for Fukudome. They will be back. Hopefully, they will play like the pro's they are..
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:00 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote: When and if Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then I feel confident the two players out are Carerra and Kearns. I am wondering what will happen if Nick Johnson comes us before 9/1. The most logical move to me is to bring up jason Donald as well and drop OCab and Hannahan. But let's wait to see if and who on this other ballplayer. :pleasantry:


If we trade for Ludwick and eventually Choo and Sizemore return healthy, then the starting OF will be Brantley, Sizemore, and Choo. Ludwick and Fuko will be on the bench. So why did we give up prospects for these guys?

Don't you think that is a pretty big IF when it comes to Choo and Sizemore? From what we are told now, it does not look like Sizemore has been healthy all season even though we were told he was at the time. And Choo has not played well offensively or defensively when he was healthy. Neither hit LHP much either. :pleasantry:
I, for one, expect both Choo & Grady to come back from the hernia/knee bruise in two, three or four weeks, fully healthy and playing like he did prior to the day they were injured.

The injury to Grady was alleged to have occurred on May 10th against the Baltimore Orioles. At that time, Grady was holding strong with a three slash line of .282/.333/.974. Subsequent to then.. not so good.. Choo had clearly hit rock bottom as he was hitting a paltry .221... after that low point, around May 10th (just by coincidence) Choo really did start to "improve".. albeit, not great. He was vastly superior to his replacements, which should come as no shock to anyone. In Choo's last 130 AB before his injury, he was hitting .270..

Having a group of OF'ers that can hit .282, .270 and .275 (Brantley) while playing stellar defense.. would have negated the need for Fukudome. They will be back. Hopefully, they will play like the pro's they are..

Sorry GS but that does not adequately explain the performance IMO. Just selective use of stats. Sizemore fell off the hitting wagon at the beginning of May, not on the 10th when he was injured. He had a hot streak in April but his weakness at the plate was fair game in May. And he has not run the bases worth a crap all season.

Choo has not hit LHP with any degree of authority all season. Probably showed some improvement against RHP but not enough to warrant anything other than platoon status this year for a team like the Indians.

To suggest these two provide "stellar" defense is ludicrous IMO. Choo has turned from a decent defender with a great arm into a poor defender with the same arm and Sizemore does not display the ability to break quickly or the speed to catch up to the ball, even ignoring his inabilty to throw and suspect hands.

Frankly, this looks to be the same "babbling" that you defended your "cub" Hermie from. I really don't care about your personal lives but if you cannot do any better that this, PLEASE DO NOT POST OVER MY POSTS! :shout:
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:01 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:To suggest these two provide "stellar" defense is ludicrous IMO. Choo has turned from a decent defender with a great arm into a poor defender with the same arm and Sizemore does not display the ability to break quickly or the speed to catch up to the ball, even ignoring his inabilty to throw and suspect hands.


Yeah, almost as ludicrous as you saying Hannahan was poor defensively at 3B. In all seriousness, your "scouting reports" on people's defense are about as useful at a freezer in the arctic. At least they provide amusement though with how funny and incredibly far off base they always are :drinks:
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:09 pm

...Frankly, this looks to be the same "babbling" that you defended your "cub" Hermie from. I really don't care about your personal lives but if you cannot do any better that this, PLEASE DO NOT POST OVER MY POSTS!..
Who died and made you King?.. are you kidding?. you don't want anyone to post over your posts?.

Are you really going to claim that what has been posted is

BABBLING?

If you believe it's not stellar defense, then post something a with a bit more depth than a statement of INDIGNATION.. You can take your indignant pompous ass comment and stick it up your ass..

what a moron...
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:00 am

At the risk of inserting myself into this, I think the consensus is that Choo has misplayed a number of balls this year. I don't have any advanced stats to support this, but that's my perception from watching 90% of the games and others have expressed this as well. His arm is still a cannon as his assist number proves, but he seems a little lost out there from time to time.

My impression of Grady's defense is that it's still very good. He still has above average straight-line speed, a ton of experience, and he still can make the diving catch when necessary.

That being said, defense really isn't the issue with either of these guys. The Tribe is dying for offense right now, and if these guys can show up in September and hit like they have in the past it could be the difference in making the playoffs. I don't know why Grady's offense fell off after a great start; I'm assuming it was a combination of the knee and the hernia. Choo was finally starting to hit when he got hurt. We don't know what these guys will be able to bring to the table when they get back, but if they're 100% and you factor in Jimenez and Fuko, then I'm liking the Tribe's chances.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:35 pm

Prosecutor wrote:At the risk of inserting myself into this, I think the consensus is that Choo has misplayed a number of balls this year. I don't have any advanced stats to support this, but that's my perception from watching 90% of the games and others have expressed this as well. His arm is still a cannon as his assist number proves, but he seems a little lost out there from time to time.

My impression of Grady's defense is that it's still very good. He still has above average straight-line speed, a ton of experience, and he still can make the diving catch when necessary.

That being said, defense really isn't the issue with either of these guys. The Tribe is dying for offense right now, and if these guys can show up in September and hit like they have in the past it could be the difference in making the playoffs. I don't know why Grady's offense fell off after a great start; I'm assuming it was a combination of the knee and the hernia. Choo was finally starting to hit when he got hurt. We don't know what these guys will be able to bring to the table when they get back, but if they're 100% and you factor in Jimenez and Fuko, then I'm liking the Tribe's chances.


Choo has always misplayed some balls in the OF. They just seemed more magnefied this year because of his struggles at the plate. He's still solid for a RFer. Covers a decent amount of ground and with his arm is an above average RFer.

Grady has definitely lost a step, but he too is still above average out there. Made a couple boneheaded plays, but overall still gets solid jumps on the ball and covers a lot of ground. yeah not quite as much as he used too but again still above average.

Agree completely with your last part, defense is NOT the issue with either of these two.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:09 pm

Haven't seen this mentioned:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/elias-rankings-for-free-agents-who-switched-leagues.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Kosuke Fukudome, Indians - Though Fukudome cannot be offered arbitration, his projected ranking changed from a Type B to unranked.


I didn't know that he couldn't be offered arbitration. Either way, hopefully Fukudome steps his game up so that we can get that type B compensation!!
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:47 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Haven't seen this mentioned:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/elias-rankings-for-free-agents-who-switched-leagues.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Kosuke Fukudome, Indians - Though Fukudome cannot be offered arbitration, his projected ranking changed from a Type B to unranked.


I didn't know that he couldn't be offered arbitration. Either way, hopefully Fukudome steps his game up so that we can get that type B compensation!!
The arbitration rules as they apply to the Fukudome situation do not favor the Indians budgetary contraints.. At Fukudome's $ 13.6 MM salary for the 2011 season, the Indians will not offer him the minimum $ 10 + MM arbitration requirement, thereby allowing him to become a Free Agent, uncompensated.. Oh well.. better that than paying a guy over $10 MM...
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:51 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:Haven't seen this mentioned:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/elias-rankings-for-free-agents-who-switched-leagues.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Kosuke Fukudome, Indians - Though Fukudome cannot be offered arbitration, his projected ranking changed from a Type B to unranked.


I didn't know that he couldn't be offered arbitration. Either way, hopefully Fukudome steps his game up so that we can get that type B compensation!!
The arbitration rules as they apply to the Fukudome situation do not favor the Indians budgetary contraints.. At Fukudome's $ 13.6 MM salary for the 2011 season, the Indians will not offer him the minimum $ 10 + MM arbitration requirement, thereby allowing him to become a Free Agent, uncompensated.. Oh well.. better that than paying a guy over $10 MM...


The way the article was worded, I took it to mean that they CAN'T offer him arbitration, as in "are not allowed to." Not, as you say, that they can't AFFORD to do so. No?
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:14 pm

They can't afford to offer $10 million to a 34-year-old corner outfielder hitting .273 with 13 RBIs 100 games into the season.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:41 pm

Prosecutor wrote:They can't afford to offer $10 million to a 34-year-old corner outfielder hitting .273 with 13 RBIs 100 games into the season.

+1

I don't know that it's that they can't afford it.. it's more in the vein of they don't want to use their limited resources on a 34 year old .275 hitting OF'er.. That kind of money can be spent much more wisely..
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby smt1192 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:33 am

Is it just me, or does it look like Fukudome bails out on every swing?
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby jellis » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:42 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:They can't afford to offer $10 million to a 34-year-old corner outfielder hitting .273 with 13 RBIs 100 games into the season.

+1

I don't know that it's that they can't afford it.. it's more in the vein of they don't want to use their limited resources on a 34 year old .275 hitting OF'er.. That kind of money can be spent much more wisely..



275 doesnt matter its the 374 OBP that does, still not worth ten million, but using avg doesnt show his true value, guy is a starter in this league and worth in the range of 4-8, because of his OBP
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:33 pm

jellis wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:They can't afford to offer $10 million to a 34-year-old corner outfielder hitting .273 with 13 RBIs 100 games into the season.

+1

I don't know that it's that they can't afford it.. it's more in the vein of they don't want to use their limited resources on a 34 year old .275 hitting OF'er.. That kind of money can be spent much more wisely..



275 doesnt matter its the 374 OBP that does, still not worth ten million, but using avg doesnt show his true value, guy is a starter in this league and worth in the range of 4-8, because of his OBP
If an OF'er had more than a handful of homers and a baker's dozen RBI's was on the team with a .375 OBP.. then it would merit consideration.. it would take a special player.. say one that can hit 40 bombs. get in the neighborhood if 125 RBI.. etc.. then a $ 10 MM plus contract would be worthwhile.. not many of those guys out there.. and fewer that are available for the likes of Tony Abreu & Carlton Smith..
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Edible14 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:46 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:If an OF'er had more than a handful of homers and a baker's dozen RBI's was on the team with a .375 OBP.. then it would merit consideration.. it would take a special player.. say one that can hit 40 bombs. get in the neighborhood if 125 RBI.. etc.. then a $ 10 MM plus contract would be worthwhile.. not many of those guys out there.. and fewer that are available for the likes of Tony Abreu & Carlton Smith..


First off, RBIs are a dumb stat. Fukudome doesn't have a lot of RBIs because he spent most of this year leading off 2-3 times a game hitting behind the pitcher. RBIs are in no way indicative of any sort of skill.

Second off, good luck getting a 40 HR guy to agree to anything near $10M for just a year. Adam Dunn agreed to a 4 year/$56M contract this past offseason... and he's probably the worst 40 HR guy you can find.

Third... it was ABNER Abreu that was being traded in the Fukudome trade.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby jellis » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:01 pm

Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:If an OF'er had more than a handful of homers and a baker's dozen RBI's was on the team with a .375 OBP.. then it would merit consideration.. it would take a special player.. say one that can hit 40 bombs. get in the neighborhood if 125 RBI.. etc.. then a $ 10 MM plus contract would be worthwhile.. not many of those guys out there.. and fewer that are available for the likes of Tony Abreu & Carlton Smith..


First off, RBIs are a dumb stat. Fukudome doesn't have a lot of RBIs because he spent most of this year leading off 2-3 times a game hitting behind the pitcher. RBIs are in no way indicative of any sort of skill.

Second off, good luck getting a 40 HR guy to agree to anything near $10M for just a year. Adam Dunn agreed to a 4 year/$56M contract this past offseason... and he's probably the worst 40 HR guy you can find.

Third... it was ABNER Abreu that was being traded in the Fukudome trade.



now we wait for him to say something nasty back to you, as that has been his MO
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:05 pm

Fukudome does has a nice OBP.... But he doesnt hit forpower, doesn't steal bases, doesn't play premium D/position and he is 34 years old... Depending on who is interested (the BIG money) won't get a long term deal and will end up an affordable option for anybody... 4-5 mil tops. tops!
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:29 pm

jellis wrote:
Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:If an OF'er had more than a handful of homers and a baker's dozen RBI's was on the team with a .375 OBP.. then it would merit consideration.. it would take a special player.. say one that can hit 40 bombs. get in the neighborhood if 125 RBI.. etc.. then a $ 10 MM plus contract would be worthwhile.. not many of those guys out there.. and fewer that are available for the likes of Tony Abreu & Carlton Smith..


First off, RBIs are a dumb stat. Fukudome doesn't have a lot of RBIs because he spent most of this year leading off 2-3 times a game hitting behind the pitcher. RBIs are in no way indicative of any sort of skill.

Second off, good luck getting a 40 HR guy to agree to anything near $10M for just a year. Adam Dunn agreed to a 4 year/$56M contract this past offseason... and he's probably the worst 40 HR guy you can find.

Third... it was ABNER Abreu that was being traded in the Fukudome trade.
now we wait for him to say something nasty back to you, as that has been his MO
RBi's are a factor of hitters getting hits with RISP..with a pitcher & and, usually a weak hitting 8th man in an NL lineup..the RBI chances arent' going to be there..and haven't for the Cubs. At least one in four or one in five AB's in the NL are guaranteed to be with the bases empty for a lead off hitter in both leagues. That's the life of a hitter that is leading off. IN the AL, where Fukudome is now... that's not the case.. or it shouldn't be the case..as Manny has moved Fukudome to the sixth spot in the lineup (that is.. a spot with more chances to generate runs). You're right about FA 40 homer guys signing for the paltry sum of $ 10 / yr. Not going to happen. There aren't many of them.. and the few there are command big.. huge dollars such as $ 10 MM plus.

As far as an MO.. after a thread has been initiated and there is banter back and forth.. any response on that thread directed personally, i.e. by saying something nasty and obtuse, then you deserve what you get.. too bad for you...
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:40 pm

I can't see how the Tribe would have any interest in Fukodome next year. Choo will be the right fielder, period.

Fukodome can also play center, but that's a pretty demanding position for a 35-year-old. I'd rather have Zeke, who is hitting .291 with an OBP of .350 so far. I know it's only 55 at-bats, but he looks like a major league player to me, not a minor leaguer who's filling in. He is superior to Fuko in speed and defense.

Fukodome doesn't bring anything to the table that the Indians really need; power, speed, a right-handed bat. He's on the downside of his career while Zeke is coming on.

The Tribe may also bring Grady back to play CF. His slugging percentage is .466 which is 3rd on the team, and he really hasn't been 100% with the hernia plus his first year after microfracture surgery.

Between Zeke, Choo, and possibly Grady I'd say CF and RF are covered next year. If they let Grady walk and he signs elsewhere rather than take a pay cut with incentives to stay in Cleveland, then maybe Fuko is a consideration as a backup CF and RF, assuming he'll take a huge pay cut. He's pocketed $48 million over the last four years so I don't think money will be a major consideration. I think if he stays in the U.S. he'll go wherever he feels comfortable even for less money.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:20 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I can't see how the Tribe would have any interest in Fukodome next year. Choo will be the right fielder, period.

Fukodome can also play center, but that's a pretty demanding position for a 35-year-old. I'd rather have Zeke, who is hitting .291 with an OBP of .350 so far. I know it's only 55 at-bats, but he looks like a major league player to me, not a minor leaguer who's filling in. He is superior to Fuko in speed and defense.

Fukodome doesn't bring anything to the table that the Indians really need; power, speed, a right-handed bat. He's on the downside of his career while Zeke is coming on.

The Tribe may also bring Grady back to play CF. His slugging percentage is .466 which is 3rd on the team, and he really hasn't been 100% with the hernia plus his first year after microfracture surgery.

Between Zeke, Choo, and possibly Grady I'd say CF and RF are covered next year. If they let Grady walk and he signs elsewhere rather than take a pay cut with incentives to stay in Cleveland, then maybe Fuko is a consideration as a backup CF and RF, assuming he'll take a huge pay cut. He's pocketed $48 million over the last four years so I don't think money will be a major consideration. I think if he stays in the U.S. he'll go wherever he feels comfortable even for less money.
Does it make sense to let Grady walk with an $ 8.5 MM contract for 2012 while retaining Fukudome for around $ 10.6 MM?.. w/ Both players being healthy, it's an easy decision.. not healthy.. then there is an argument..
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:10 pm

At this point I let them both walk... Gradys performance dictates if that remains the case at the end of the season, and despite his health concerns - I am trying to lay the ground work now to get him to come back for less money than his option would give him. As for Fukudome..... I think that might be japanese for "total rental".

Oh no - nick name time...... Fukudome - "the oriental rental"????? Yes/No........ GONG!
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:32 pm

Nobody is going to give Fukodome $10.5 million. He's in the last year of his contract so he'll be a free agent, right?

My preference would be to decline Grady's option and sign him to a contract that guarantees $2-3 million with graduated incentives based on plate appearances that could earn him the $9 million if he gets to 500 PA's.

I think Pavano's contract was structured like that. I don't think anybody is going to guarantee Grady a lot of money due to his health concerns.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Fukadome may not be worth $12 million per year - but he is a damn good ball player. I sincerely hope we can find a way to bring him back next year.

Bob
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:15 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Fukadome may not be worth $12 million per year - but he is a damn good ball player. I sincerely hope we can find a way to bring him back next year.

Bob


As what? The regular right fielder? No way, that's Choo's position. The regular center fielder? He's 35 years old and would wear out if he played center. He's competent but doesn't give you the speed and range you want in center even if he could hold up over a full season.

Left field? No thanks, I prefer Brantley. As a backup to all three positions? Good luck in getting him to accept 4th outfielder money, even if he agreed to accept the role, which he won't.

I like the guy but I don't see a job for him in Cleveland next year even if Grady walks. I think the Tribe would intensify their pursuit of B.J. Upton if that happened.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:27 pm

KoFu will be gone at the end of September. To be only a footnote in Indians history. He has been helpful this season, just not enough. (I hope he does not become the answer to the trivia question: Who did the Indians trade Abner Abreu for?)

For what he would ask for next season, the Indians need to find a run-producer in the OF.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:36 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:KoFu will be gone at the end of September. To be only a footnote in Indians history. He has been helpful this season, just not enough. (I hope he does not become the answer to the trivia question: Who did the Indians trade Abner Abreu for?)

For what he would ask for next season, the Indians need to find a run-producer in the OF.


I would go for a OF/1B/DH combo guy that hits from the right side especially if Grady comes back (I saw where CA said he'd be back). There are ABs for a guy like that.
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:20 pm

daingean wrote:I would go for a OF/1B/DH combo guy that hits from the right side especially if Grady comes back (I saw where CA said he'd be back). There are ABs for a guy like that.


Like Josh Willingham?
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby jellis » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:27 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
daingean wrote:I would go for a OF/1B/DH combo guy that hits from the right side especially if Grady comes back (I saw where CA said he'd be back). There are ABs for a guy like that.


Like Josh Willingham?



bingo

I thought would mind keeping fukudome as a guy to watch as a fall back, no power, but on this team another guy who works counts is a big bonus
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Re: Beyond the Fukodome

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:48 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
daingean wrote:I would go for a OF/1B/DH combo guy that hits from the right side especially if Grady comes back (I saw where CA said he'd be back). There are ABs for a guy like that.


Like Josh Willingham?


Only concern with him is if he's a Type A (which he looks firmly entrenched at). Tribe currently has what, the 3rd highest unprotected pick? Personally, not too fond of losing a 1st (especially that high) for Willingham.

I'd look at Michael Cuddyer first as he's only looking to be a Type B.

Trade market probably is the better avenue though.
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