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Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Tondo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:22 pm

Minor League ball has reached and passed their halfway point...it's time to re-evaluate our system.

There are no rules to the lists, you can get creative with them and split them all over (hitting-pitching, SP-RP, LHP-RHP, power-table setter etc etc) or you just do a normal org list...you can include or exclude this year's draft class (as long as you say so)...feel free

Here are some of mine:

Overall Pitching (excluding this years draft picks and short season pitchers):

1. White
2. Pomeranz
3. CC Lee
4. Soto
5. Putnam
6. Gomez (including him, he's just 23yo, ahead of the next 2 because he's the most consistent)
7. McAllister (only behind Gomez because of LHB splits, preference toss up though)
8. Barnes (command issues put him behind the former 2, but all pretty close and he might have the highest upside left)
9. Gardner
10. Rondon
11. Stowell
12. Bryson
13. Clayton Cook
14. Adams
15. Judy
16. Burns
17. DeLaCruz (looks more and more like a LOOGY)
18. Hagadone (looks more and more like a LOOGY only)
19. Packer (still at worst a LOOGY, tough luck, still decent WHIP, best among Akron SP)
20. A.Perez
21. Brach
22. Rayl
23. Goodnight
24. House
25. Sturdevant
26. Guilmet
27. Langwell
28. Kluber
29. Haley
30. Blair
31. Espino
32. B.Price
33. Berger
34. C.Jones
35. Sarianides
36. Dickerson
37. Cooper
38. Cole Cook
39. Ehlert
40. Reichenbach

Overall Hitting (including draft picks and short season players):

1. Kipnis
2. Chisenhall
3. Weglarz
4. Phelps
5. Wolters
6. Chen
7. Carrera
8. Lowery
9. Myles
10. Aguilar
11. Washington
12. Henry
13. R.Rodriguez
14. Fedroff
15. Siliga
16. Perez
17. Holt
18. J.Romero
19. R.Garcia
20. Cannon
21. Goedert
22. McBride
23. J.Kelly
24. Smith
25. Mills
26. Abraham
27. J.Diaz
28. Lavisky (and I'm being nice here)
29. A.Abreu
30. Bellows
31. Tice
32. Gallas
33. Urshela
34. Greenwell
35. K.Sanchez
36. Bartolone
37. Cid
38. Serna
39. Bradley
40. Hankins

Tomlin 2.0 watch list (AVG at best stuff, pitchability, good control/production, later round pick/on no top 20 lists):

1. Soto
2. Clayton Cook
3. Packer
4. Brach
5. Rayl
6. Espino

Pestano 2.0 watch list (under-appreciated, under the radar RP-only, consistent production out of pen)

1. Burns
2. Sturdevant
3. Guilmet
4. Langwell
5. Espino

More to come...but this took already too much time for now

Discuss and post yours :drinks:
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:50 pm

Tondo wrote:Pestano 2.0 watch list (under-appreciated, under the radar RP-only, consistent production out of pen)

1. Burns
2. Sturdevant
3. Guilmet
4. Langwell
5. Espino


I think Langwell has the best shot at pulling a Pestano. Career minor league relievers have slim chances of making it, but Langwell's performance certainly backs that up and he is a pretty solid prospect stuff-wise.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:14 pm

Hey Tondo-
Petes999 & I will be doing a mid-season 'gallery'. We are only asking for your top 20 overall in the Tribe system.

PM me a good email address and I will forward info out later this week/ this weekend.
I look forward to your submission.

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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:19 pm

Pitchers
1. Drew Pomeranz
(Healthy Jason Knapp would be here, sniff)
2. Alex White
(Dillon Howard would be here)
(Hector Rondon would be here)
3. Joe Gardner
4. Jake Sisco
5. Scott Barnes
6. CC Lee
7. Nick Hagadone
8. Adam Miller
9. Jeanmar Gomez
10. Bryce Stowell
11. Zach Putnam
12. Rob Bryson
13. Mike Rayl
14. Zach McAllister
15. Josh Judy

Position Players
1. Jason Kipnis
(Chisenhall would be 1b)
(Francisco Lindor would be here)
2. LeVon Washington
3. Tony Wolters
4. Nick Weglarz
5. Chun Chen
(Cord Phelps would be here)
6. Bryson Myles
7. Jake Lowery
8. Alex Lavisky
9. Jesus Aguilar
10. Ronny Rodriguez
11. Tim Fedroff
12. Jordan Smith
13. Gio Urshela
14. Ez Carrera
15. Bo Greenwell/Jordan Henry/Tyler Holt (pretty much the exact same prospect with the same upside)
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby smt1192 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:09 pm

Not a scout by any means, haven't seen much of these guys in person, due to geographic limitations. Basing this mostly off of instinct and statistics.

Position Players
1) Jason Kipnis (2B)
2) Lonnie Chisenhall (3B)
3) Jake Lowery (C)
4) Bryson Myles (OF)
5) Chun Chen (C)
6) Cord Phelps (IF)
7) Beau Mills (1B)
8) Tyler Cannon (3B)
9) Tim Fedroff (OF)
10) Tony Wolters (SS)
11) Alex Moslave (C)
12) Jesus Agillar (1B)
13) Nick Weglarz (OF)
14) Matt McBride (1B)
15) Adam Abraham (3B)
16) LeVon Washington (OF)

Close but no cigar: Ezekiel Carrera (OF), Anthony Gallas (OF), Alex Lavisky (C), Jordan Henry (OF), Jordan Smith (OF), Jeremie Tice (IF), Tyler Holt (OF)

If/Once Lindor signs he would be at 4 for me

Starting Pitching
1) Alex White (RHP)
2) Drew Pomeranz (LHP)
3) Giovanni Soto (LHP)
4) Scott Barnes (LHP)
5) Zach McAllister (RHP)
6) Mike Rayl (LHP)
7) T.J. House (LHP)
8) Michael Goodnight (RHP)
9) Clayton Cook (RHP)
10) Jeanmar Gomez (RHP)/David Huff (LHP)

Falling out: Trey Haley (RHP), Kelvin De La Cruz (LHP), Joe Gardner (RHP), Jason Knapp (RHP)
Like the numbers, not sure about the stuff: Brett Brach (RHP), Matt Packer (LHP)

Relievers
1) C.C. Lee (RHP)
2A) Marty Popham (RHP)
2B) Nick Hangadone (LHP)
3) Bryce Stowell (RHP)
4) Tyler Sturdevant (RHP)
5) Zach Putnam (RHP)
6) Josh Judy (RHP)
7) Paolo Espino (RHP)
8) Matt Langwell (RHP)
9) J.D. Reichenbach (LHP)
10) Preston Guilmet (RHP)

One thing that worries me about this ... only 2 LHP, Hangadone has been struggling in AAA so far and Reichenbach is only in low A. However, we have 2 solid leftys in the Cleveland pen right now and we could move one of the AAA lefty starters into long relief (Huff?).

Anyways, by no means is this a be-all-end-all list, just a fan's perspective.
Last edited by smt1192 on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby daingean » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:19 pm

smt1192 wrote:One thing that worries me about this ... 1 LHP, and he is in low A :nea:

Anyways, by no means is this a be-all-end-all list, just a fan's perspective.


I think Hagadone should be in the list of relievers. He has the stuff the only issue is his control but he's a tall lefty who had TJ surgery a few years ago. Tall pitchers in general usually develop later (see Randy Johnson's career) this is because of muscle memory and other issues. Add the TJ thing where control is the last thing to come back and things still are encouraging on NH. :dirol:
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:21 pm

Not counting those that have played in the Majors (White, Chis, Phelps, Gomez) or picks that havent signed yet:

1 Kipnis
2 Pomeranz
3 Weglarz
4 Putnam
5 Lee
6 Barnes
7 Carrera
8 Washington
9 McAllister
10 Chen
11 Hagadone
12 Stowell
13 Adams
14 Soto
15 Lowery
16 Myles
17 Wolters
18 Henry
19 Holt
20 DLCruz
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:42 pm

I find it AMAZING how highly some of you are ranking LeVon Washington. Sorry, but for the most part this season, he's struggled and dropped in my rankings... not sure what you guys are watching.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby daingean » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:46 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I find it AMAZING how highly some of you are ranking LeVon Washington. Sorry, but for the most part this season, he's struggled and dropped in my rankings... not sure what you guys are watching.


I like Washington and think that he will get better. First season in pro ball, I would expect some adjustments (after 1 year in JC - this year he's seeing good pitchers everyday instead of 1 or 2 a month). My biggest concern with him is arm strength. If he ends up being just a DH or 2B because of that, then you wouldn't find him in my top 20. But for now, I will be patient with his offensive struggles but expect him to get better as the season progresses.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:09 pm

Position Players
1) Jason Kipnis (2B)
2) Nick Weglarz (OF)
3) Francisco Lindor* (SS)
4) Tony Wolters (SS)
5) Chun Chen (C)
6) Jake Lowery (C)
7) Bryson Myles (OF)
8) Ezequiel Carerra (OF)
9) Tim Fedroff (OF)
10) Jesus Aguilar (1B)
11) Alex Moslave (C)
12) Matt McBride (1B)
13) Ronny Rodriguez (SS)
14) Jordan Smith (3B)
15) LeVon Washington (OF)
16) Jordan Henry (OF)
17) Giovanny Urshela (3B)
18) Adam Abraham (3B)
19) Alex Lavisky (C)
20) Tyler Holt (OF)

Starting Pitching
1) Drew Pomeranz (LHP)
2) Dillon Howard* (RHP)
3) Jason Knapp (RHP)
4) Jake Sisco (RHP)
5) Scott Barnes (LHP)
6) Giovanni Soto (LHP)
7) Felix Sterling (RHP)
8) Mike Rayl (LHP)
9) Zach McAllister (RHP)
10) Joe Gardner (RHP)
11) Kelvin De La Cruz (LHP)
12) TJ House (LHP)
13) Clayton Cook (RHP)
14) Matt Packer (LHP)
15) Cole Cook (RHP)

Relievers
1) C.C. Lee (RHP)
2) Nick Hagadone (LHP)
3) Zach Putnam (RHP)
4) Josh Judy (RHP)
5) Bryce Stowell (RHP)
6) Rob Bryson (RHP)
7) Paolo Espino (RHP)
8) Preston Guilmet (RHP)

* indicates has not signed and in the case they don't, move everyone up one slot.
** did not include Rondon/A.Perez due to TJ surgery.
*** did not include players who have graduated to majors or have made a number of appearances there, i.e. Chisenhall, White, Gomez, etc.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Tondo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:36 pm

I totally forgot McFarland in my Pitchers list...he would be around 22-27...also left out A.Miller as he was hard to rank, he's a wildcard anyway. Didn't rank H.Jones as I know next to nothing about him

Here's another list:

Table setters (Leadoff/2nd type high OBP and/or speed specs):

1. Wolters
2. Carrera
3. Myles
4. Washington
5. Henry
6. Fedroff
7. Siliga
8. Perez
9. Holt
10. Greenwell
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:38 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I find it AMAZING how highly some of you are ranking LeVon Washington. Sorry, but for the most part this season, he's struggled and dropped in my rankings... not sure what you guys are watching.


Agree he has slipped some, but still a no doubt top 10-15 guy. Another example of a guy playing not at a 100% that explains a lot of issues.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:47 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I find it AMAZING how highly some of you are ranking LeVon Washington. Sorry, but for the most part this season, he's struggled and dropped in my rankings... not sure what you guys are watching.


I base most of my ranking off of potential to be an impact player and age. I actually find it interesting how quickly people have hopped off of the bandwagon because of a bad start for Washington, yet will rank Nick Weglarz so high. In fact, Nick has had just a bad start to the season, but lackluster production for about 5 years while also being 3 and a half years older. And I don't mean to bash Weglarz, he's still 4th on my list. But it still seems hypocritical if you ask me to have them ranked so far apart by many.

Washington was a preseason top 5 OVERALL by many people and now he can't even crack the top 7 position players in anyone's list but mine? I wonder if those people are as cold on Carlos Santana too because Santana has the same batting average and same OBP. Obviously Santana has the power numbers but point is, people praise Carlos for his ability to get on base and LeVon has also been getting on base pretty well too considering his poor hitting.

Plus, LeVon is starting to rake pretty well recently as he's currently on a 6 game hitting streak with multiple hits in all but two of those games. Throw in two doubles and two triples in that time-span and he might be finding his groove. With young prospects, patience is the key. LeVon is the future leadoff hitter of this team.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Tondo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:00 pm

Lackluster? Weglarz had a .800+ OPS since 2007....if that's lackluster then Chisenhall is a hack

Washington 1st needs to show me some consistency (and that's been his biggest knock) before he even sniffs my Top10
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:08 pm

Tondo wrote:Lackluster? Weglarz had a .800+ OPS since 2007....if that's lackluster then Chisenhall is a hack

Washington 1st needs to show me some consistency (and that's been his biggest knock) before he even sniffs my Top10


For a corner outfielder with no speed who might end up as a DH, that should be expected. My point wasn't that his production was lackluster (even though I guess it might have come out that way), it was that his production in relation to how highly ranked people have maintained him doesn't match up. Being ranked a top 3 by many, you'd think he batted over 300 at least once in the minor leagues.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby smt1192 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:52 pm

daingean wrote:
smt1192 wrote:One thing that worries me about this ... 1 LHP, and he is in low A :nea:

Anyways, by no means is this a be-all-end-all list, just a fan's perspective.


I think Hagadone should be in the list of relievers. He has the stuff the only issue is his control but he's a tall lefty who had TJ surgery a few years ago. Tall pitchers in general usually develop later (see Randy Johnson's career) this is because of muscle memory and other issues. Add the TJ thing where control is the last thing to come back and things still are encouraging on NH. :dirol:

Good catch, I added him. Skipped over him because he had split the year with AA/AAA. I also need to go back and add Jason Knapp, but I have a feeling he is going to be perpetually injured. Hopefully I am wrong.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Tondo » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:56 am

Looking at those lists, we obviously have a lot of SP and RP depth and a lot of high OBP/table setter bats...otoh there's lack of power and we miss an OF bat on the ML level...with that and trade talks in mind, here's my

Best Sell-list (overachieving season, position of depth, questionable upside or fit with Indians)

1. Barnes (I know, I know...hear me out though: he will fetch the most on the market and if we want real ML help, he's the guy I would throw in...why? combination of 2 reasons: control problems/high WHIP AND fly ball pitcher...me thinks he'll be very "inconsistent" at ML level)

2. Phelps (Kipnis is the 2B of the future and Donald or Valbuena or some Everett-like vet will be the Util...Phelps biggest value to us is as trade chip imho)

3. Fedroff (not much power, speed is vanishing, fringe starter/4th OF type, having career year...sell high)

Have a tough time adding anybody else...lots of specs I could see or understand seeing traded but not many fit my criteria anymore...wanted to add a high profile RP arm but I couldn't decide who but trading 1 of Lee, Judy, Putnam makes sense (all RHP, same ETA, same age) considering the depth right behind them (Burns, Sturdevant, Langwell, Guilmet, Espino, Bryson, Stowell etc etc)
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Sol Solis » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:21 pm

Tondo wrote:Looking at those lists, we obviously have a lot of SP and RP depth and a lot of high OBP/table setter bats...otoh there's lack of power and we miss an OF bat on the ML level...with that and trade talks in mind, here's my

Best Sell-list (overachieving season, position of depth, questionable upside or fit with Indians)

1. Barnes (I know, I know...hear me out though: he will fetch the most on the market and if we want real ML help, he's the guy I would throw in...why? combination of 2 reasons: control problems/high WHIP AND fly ball pitcher...me thinks he'll be very "inconsistent" at ML level)


Can't say I agree here. The Indians don't have a lot of LHP prospects that actually project as ML starters (i.e. Packer doesn't count) and Barnes fits that mold. He's striking out a ton of guys, and looks at worst a Back end relief guy in the majors with the potential to sit in the MOR for the Tribe. He had an off year last year, but he really hasn't ever had absolutely terrible control. It is something around 3.5 BB/9 right now, which is worrisome, but not atrocious. Especially factoring in like 10 K/9.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby entertheshoe » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:46 pm

I agree that Cord Phelps should be traded but I think his trade-value is dropping pretty hard with as awful as his defense has been. I don't know if that will go unnoticed. He's going to have to seriously step it up with his bat in order to bring his value back up because I don't see a team trading for him if he keeps up the rate of having an error every other day. And what's the use of a utility player who stinks at defense everywhere he plays?
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:09 pm

Sol Solis wrote:
Tondo wrote:Looking at those lists, we obviously have a lot of SP and RP depth and a lot of high OBP/table setter bats...otoh there's lack of power and we miss an OF bat on the ML level...with that and trade talks in mind, here's my

Best Sell-list (overachieving season, position of depth, questionable upside or fit with Indians)

1. Barnes (I know, I know...hear me out though: he will fetch the most on the market and if we want real ML help, he's the guy I would throw in...why? combination of 2 reasons: control problems/high WHIP AND fly ball pitcher...me thinks he'll be very "inconsistent" at ML level)


Can't say I agree here. The Indians don't have a lot of LHP prospects that actually project as ML starters (i.e. Packer doesn't count) and Barnes fits that mold. He's striking out a ton of guys, and looks at worst a Back end relief guy in the majors with the potential to sit in the MOR for the Tribe. He had an off year last year, but he really hasn't ever had absolutely terrible control. It is something around 3.5 BB/9 right now, which is worrisome, but not atrocious. Especially factoring in like 10 K/9.
While it would be a loss to the Indians system to lose a LHP SP candidate, Barnes projection isn't to a MOR/FOR type level. He's been effective in part because he is a port sider and in part because of his deceptive delivery. If an impact bat can be acquired for him, do it. Guys like Cody Ransom, Aaron Cunningham, Adam Loewen or Bryan Peterson may be the type of bat that would fill an upper minors level void the Indians currently have.

Using Cord Phelps in trade after his two minutes in the ML's would be a poor decision. Cord just needs some playing time before he can be considered as a trade candidate.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:22 pm

I'd trade Gomez before Barnes, simply because we're overloaded with RH starters. Gomez is 8-2 with a 2.49 ERA on the season so if selling high is the idea, this is about as high as he's going to get.

Barnes is throwing really well lately, with a 2.49 ERA over his last 9 starts and 57 K's in 48 innings. I'd like to see a rotation with him and Pomeranz on the left and three righties, probably Masterson, Tomlin, and White.

If our trade partner is looking for a left-handed starter, David Huff is on a roll so I'd offer him up while he's still hot.

Looking at these lists, the amount of depth we have is impressive. If somebody wants to do a Colon-for-prospects type of deal, we're the guys that can do it.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Sol Solis » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:34 pm

GeronimoSon wrote: While it would be a loss to the Indians system to lose a LHP SP candidate, Barnes projection isn't to a MOR/FOR type level. He's been effective in part because he is a port sider and in part because of his deceptive delivery.


Why isn't his upside MOR? He's pitching 92-95 on his fastball with a plus change already and a developing slider that could even be above average before all is said and done. As a LHP that is MOR stuff to the T especially when factoring in his high K rates.

I would agree that he should definitely be parted with if they can get a youngish impact bat, even if he's got to be packaged with other high upside guys lower in the system.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby elrod enchilada » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:35 pm

I think Carrasco needs to be in any Tribe rotation going forward.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:53 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Sol Solis wrote:
Tondo wrote:Looking at those lists, we obviously have a lot of SP and RP depth and a lot of high OBP/table setter bats...otoh there's lack of power and we miss an OF bat on the ML level...with that and trade talks in mind, here's my

Best Sell-list (overachieving season, position of depth, questionable upside or fit with Indians)

1. Barnes (I know, I know...hear me out though: he will fetch the most on the market and if we want real ML help, he's the guy I would throw in...why? combination of 2 reasons: control problems/high WHIP AND fly ball pitcher...me thinks he'll be very "inconsistent" at ML level)


Can't say I agree here. The Indians don't have a lot of LHP prospects that actually project as ML starters (i.e. Packer doesn't count) and Barnes fits that mold. He's striking out a ton of guys, and looks at worst a Back end relief guy in the majors with the potential to sit in the MOR for the Tribe. He had an off year last year, but he really hasn't ever had absolutely terrible control. It is something around 3.5 BB/9 right now, which is worrisome, but not atrocious. Especially factoring in like 10 K/9.
While it would be a loss to the Indians system to lose a LHP SP candidate, Barnes projection isn't to a MOR/FOR type level. He's been effective in part because he is a port sider and in part because of his deceptive delivery. If an impact bat can be acquired for him, do it. Guys like Cody Ransom, Aaron Cunningham, Adam Loewen or Bryan Peterson may be the type of bat that would fill an upper minors level void the Indians currently have.

Using Cord Phelps in trade after his two minutes in the ML's would be a poor decision. Cord just needs some playing time before he can be considered as a trade candidate.

I disagree with your assessment of Barnes projection. He has already reached a reasonable MOR projection IMO. I do not consider him a likely candidate to move to FOR but it looks to me like he has one plus and two above average pitches if his command continues to improve at its present rate and that is MOR IMO.

I am not sure anyone will agree with us but I think your point about Phelps is well taken. I would hate to see them send him down to promote Kipnis but it makes no sense to me to have both on the ML roster. He needs more time to look at ML breaking balls and settle in at 2B which he hardly played at all in Columbus. People tend to forget that even the best IF defenders need adjustment time to the speed of the ML game. Donald is a far better defender than Phelps, Chis or Kipnis and it took him two months to adjust. :pleasantry:
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Tondo » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:57 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I'd trade Gomez before Barnes, simply because we're overloaded with RH starters. Gomez is 8-2 with a 2.49 ERA on the season so if selling high is the idea, this is about as high as he's going to get.


Well, I have those 2 and McAllister ranked pretty much the same with Barnes the biggest upside and if someone values Gomez as much as Barnes I'd part with him because he's a RHP and has lesser upside...BUT I think Barnes simply fetches more in return...much more compared to the drop off in production we'd miss with McAllister/Gomez instead of him in the future rotation...that's why he's on the list, but you're right...Gomez could be on that list too but I think he's more valuable to us right now

I'd trade Huff and Valbuena of course but I think their value is close to non existent...might as well be us getting lucky with them (again, more depth value for us than a trade return imho)

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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Chip Davis » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:46 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Sol Solis wrote:
Tondo wrote:Looking at those lists, we obviously have a lot of SP and RP depth and a lot of high OBP/table setter bats...otoh there's lack of power and we miss an OF bat on the ML level...with that and trade talks in mind, here's my

Best Sell-list (overachieving season, position of depth, questionable upside or fit with Indians)

1. Barnes (I know, I know...hear me out though: he will fetch the most on the market and if we want real ML help, he's the guy I would throw in...why? combination of 2 reasons: control problems/high WHIP AND fly ball pitcher...me thinks he'll be very "inconsistent" at ML level)


Can't say I agree here. The Indians don't have a lot of LHP prospects that actually project as ML starters (i.e. Packer doesn't count) and Barnes fits that mold. He's striking out a ton of guys, and looks at worst a Back end relief guy in the majors with the potential to sit in the MOR for the Tribe. He had an off year last year, but he really hasn't ever had absolutely terrible control. It is something around 3.5 BB/9 right now, which is worrisome, but not atrocious. Especially factoring in like 10 K/9.
While it would be a loss to the Indians system to lose a LHP SP candidate, Barnes projection isn't to a MOR/FOR type level. He's been effective in part because he is a port sider and in part because of his deceptive delivery. If an impact bat can be acquired for him, do it. Guys like Cody Ransom, Aaron Cunningham, Adam Loewen or Bryan Peterson may be the type of bat that would fill an upper minors level void the Indians currently have.

Using Cord Phelps in trade after his two minutes in the ML's would be a poor decision. Cord just needs some playing time before he can be considered as a trade candidate.


I would attribute Barnes' success mostly to his filthy slider, plus fastball, and a good change-up. If the Indians part with him it should be for someone that carries a really big stick IMO. I also think Huff still has some value that is increasing by the start and Gomez would also be available in my world as I like McCallister more. I agree with you in regards to Phelps. He has descent value right now but I think it will improve with more experience in the bigs and the same can be said about Donald. With all this said, what would a package of Gomez, Valbuena/Phelps/Donald, Carrera be worth?
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby CIPerspective1 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:31 pm

See my blog at ciperspective.blogspot.com

for my current mid-season rankings of prospects and other postings.

BTW, look at Washington's walk rate. Right now it is only his BA that is an issue. Yes, I have seen him play, twice, and he is exactly what I expected based on his instructional league performance last year and his ST stats this year.

That kind of walk rate and speed in that young a player is pretty amazing. Plus, he is making, except for a few ABs last year in Arizona, his professional debut at low A, not an easy feat. Remember, Wolters is currently at high-level rookie ball, one level below Washington, and not performing that much better.

Plus, after the top 4, it's not like we have any top level prospects. Everybody is a question mark with some upside. I just feel that Washington's upside is clearly higher than the rest of the guys we have, including Wolters. Once Wolters proves he WILL hit better than Washington, he sprints past Washington as Wolters is a middle infielder. Until then, for me, Washington is the better prospect. :biggrin:
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:53 pm

CIPerspective1 wrote:See my blog at ciperspective.blogspot.com

for my current mid-season rankings of prospects and other postings.

BTW, look at Washington's walk rate. Right now it is only his BA that is an issue. Yes, I have seen him play, twice, and he is exactly what I expected based on his instructional league performance last year and his ST stats this year.

That kind of walk rate and speed in that young a player is pretty amazing. Plus, he is making, except for a few ABs last year in Arizona, his professional debut at low A, not an easy feat. Remember, Wolters is currently at high-level rookie ball, one level below Washington, and not performing that much better.

Plus, after the top 4, it's not like we have any top level prospects. Everybody is a question mark with some upside. I just feel that Washington's upside is clearly higher than the rest of the guys we have, including Wolters. Once Wolters proves he WILL hit better than Washington, he sprints past Washington as Wolters is a middle infielder. Until then, for me, Washington is the better prospect. :biggrin:


Sorry, but I completely disagree with you in regards to comparing Wolters and Washington.

In 170 AB, Washington has a total of 10 extra base hits (including 2 home runs), while in 49 at bats, Wolters already had 6 extra base hits. Furthermore, looking at batting average can be a deceiving stat. Dig a little deeper and you'll find this: Washington OBP .348 Wolters OBP .383, Washington SLG .324 Wolters SLG .449, Washington OPS .672 Wolters OPS .832. Sorry, but that's not even close right now to say Wolters is "not doing much better". Plus, Wolters is almost a full year younger than Washington as well.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:15 pm

I think one could easily make an argument that Washington is the most disappointing guy from last year. I am still quite high on him, but he is not a top 10 guy at this point.

I have done an updated top 20 not sure where to post it though.

real quick though

1. Washington has had the biggest drop of top guys, Urshela isn't looking to hot either IMO.
2. Barnes is arguably the biggest climber or Aguliar from a positional point. CC Lee is another mover
3. Guys like Abreu and Henry don't look like they are going to advance much further without becoming organizational soldiers.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:20 pm

criznit2009 wrote:I think one could easily make an argument that Washington is the most disappointing guy from last year. I am still quite high on him, but he is not a top 10 guy at this point.

I have done an updated top 20 not sure where to post it though.

real quick though

1. Washington has had the biggest drop of top guys, Urshela isn't looking to hot either IMO.
2. Barnes is arguably the biggest climber or Aguliar from a positional point. CC Lee is another mover
3. Guys like Abreu and Henry don't look like they are going to advance much further without becoming organizational soldiers.


I'm not sure what you're basing being a top 10 guy on. If you're basing it on production this year then maybe you're right but I don't see how you can not think he's one of the top 10 most talented players in the farm system. If every player in our farm system were put in a draft and selected one by one by MLB teams, there's no possible way that 10 guys get picked before him, sorry.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:26 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:I think one could easily make an argument that Washington is the most disappointing guy from last year. I am still quite high on him, but he is not a top 10 guy at this point.

I have done an updated top 20 not sure where to post it though.

real quick though

1. Washington has had the biggest drop of top guys, Urshela isn't looking to hot either IMO.
2. Barnes is arguably the biggest climber or Aguliar from a positional point. CC Lee is another mover
3. Guys like Abreu and Henry don't look like they are going to advance much further without becoming organizational soldiers.


I'm not sure what you're basing being a top 10 guy on. If you're basing it on production this year then maybe you're right but I don't see how you can not think he's one of the top 10 most talented players in the farm system. If every player in our farm system were put in a draft and selected one by one by MLB teams, there's no possible way that 10 guys get picked before him, sorry.


If you base this off prospects who haven't lost rookie status.... Chisenhall, Kipnis, White, Pomeranz, Weglarz, Knapp, Phelps would all definitely be picked before Washington. Then you have guys like Wolters, Myles, and Lowery as well who could. Add in maybe Hagadone and Aguilar, too.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:31 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:I think one could easily make an argument that Washington is the most disappointing guy from last year. I am still quite high on him, but he is not a top 10 guy at this point.

I have done an updated top 20 not sure where to post it though.

real quick though

1. Washington has had the biggest drop of top guys, Urshela isn't looking to hot either IMO.
2. Barnes is arguably the biggest climber or Aguliar from a positional point. CC Lee is another mover
3. Guys like Abreu and Henry don't look like they are going to advance much further without becoming organizational soldiers.


I'm not sure what you're basing being a top 10 guy on. If you're basing it on production this year then maybe you're right but I don't see how you can not think he's one of the top 10 most talented players in the farm system. If every player in our farm system were put in a draft and selected one by one by MLB teams, there's no possible way that 10 guys get picked before him, sorry.


If you base this off prospects who haven't lost rookie status.... Chisenhall, Kipnis, White, Pomeranz, Weglarz, Knapp, Phelps would all definitely be picked before Washington. Then you have guys like Wolters, Myles, and Lowery as well who could. Add in maybe Hagadone and Aguilar, too.


For what it is worth I had Washington at #10 - in my 2011 prospect rankings before the season started. He has some tools, and depending on how many guys end up "graduating" to the ML he could climb back into the top 10 but he will had to really step it up to do so IMO. Once he gets going his stock rises fast and prolly faster than any other positional player in the system.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby CIPerspective1 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:04 pm

Time will tell. However, for a guy who has all of 179 ABs in pro ball and has this kind of walk rate, I think it is impressive. If Washington was hitting .270, with his walk rate and SB numbers, I don't know if we even would be having this discussion.

One more thing, it probably isn't statistically appropriate to compare guys playing at two distinctly different levels of pro ball and low class A and high level rookie ball ARE different levels, not to mention that Wolters has about 1/4 the sample size and is currently trending down whereas Washington is currently trending up.

As I said, time will tell.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:33 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:I think one could easily make an argument that Washington is the most disappointing guy from last year. I am still quite high on him, but he is not a top 10 guy at this point.

I have done an updated top 20 not sure where to post it though.

real quick though

1. Washington has had the biggest drop of top guys, Urshela isn't looking to hot either IMO.
2. Barnes is arguably the biggest climber or Aguliar from a positional point. CC Lee is another mover
3. Guys like Abreu and Henry don't look like they are going to advance much further without becoming organizational soldiers.


I'm not sure what you're basing being a top 10 guy on. If you're basing it on production this year then maybe you're right but I don't see how you can not think he's one of the top 10 most talented players in the farm system. If every player in our farm system were put in a draft and selected one by one by MLB teams, there's no possible way that 10 guys get picked before him, sorry.


If you base this off prospects who haven't lost rookie status.... Chisenhall, Kipnis, White, Pomeranz, Weglarz, Knapp, Phelps would all definitely be picked before Washington. Then you have guys like Wolters, Myles, and Lowery as well who could. Add in maybe Hagadone and Aguilar, too.


Knapp if healthy is up there but that's a big if. In fact, if Knapp were healthy he's probably my #2 overall prospect behind Pomeranz tbh. Phelps I disagree with, if you use LeVon as a trade piece there's no doubt that he would yield more than Cord Phelps. I fail to see the trade value in a utility player who can't field at any of his positions. Wolters, Myles, Aguilar, and Lowery are looking solid but I still don't think that they are as valuable as Washington is in a "redraft". Hagadone is alot like Washington in that he's uber talented but hasn't put it all together yet.

It's pretty opinion based, but I like to base my rankings strongly off of potential. Chis, Kip, White, and Pomeranz are rightfully ahead of LeVon but he, Wolters, Myles, Lowery, Aguilar, and Hagadone each have strong arguments for ranging 5-10 interchangeably. Either way, I don't see how Washington can be left out of the top 10. I agree with Chiznit that "Once he gets going his stock rises fast and prolly faster than any other positional player in the system."
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:58 pm

CIPerspective1 wrote:One more thing, it probably isn't statistically appropriate to compare guys playing at two distinctly different levels of pro ball and low class A and high level rookie ball ARE different levels, not to mention that Wolters has about 1/4 the sample size and is currently trending down whereas Washington is currently trending up.


Imho there's little difference in pure talent between NYPenn League and Low-A....the difference is only experience. In short season the fresh signed draft picks are playing, in Low-A it's 2nd year players and failed "high upside" players (think Cid, A.Abreu)...70% of those guys in MV will be the roster of the Low-A ball team the following year...quite often specs perform better in Low-A in their 2nd year than in MV in their 1st...the "pure" talent level is pretty close imho

...and where is Wolters "trending down"? Sounds like LeVon apologetics...guy's been a disppointment....yeah, he "flashes" his talent...but that was his biggest knock going into the draft: he "flashes" talent but is inconsistent...so far, he hasn't improved from that status and as long as he doesn't, he's not improving and wasting his "high upside" years...lack of OF depth probably will push him to Kinston next season regardless of his stats this season....let's hope he doesn't turn into Abner Abreu 2.0, because that's the guy he's trending to...highly thought of/high upisde spec, who doesn't get his act together
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:07 am

I have a hard time knocking LeVon and claiming him as a disappointment. Seen it too many times where an injury just throws a whole season off. I'll wait until this point next season before I pass judgement. In the meantime, for a guy who had offseason hip surgery and has had knee/leg issues all spring, he's playing pretty well given the fact he is not 100% and probably won't be all season. Both he and Wolters have unfortunately been hit by the injury bug, though LeVon's a little more serious. So goes life in the minors with guys getting hurt.... :wacko:
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:39 pm

Agreed with Tony, LeVon Washington has been playing his way back. He's not healthy yet but is starting to warm up. Both are high upside guys... Wolters as a SS coupled with his solid d and Washington for his dynamic speed and bat. Kind of two extremes but potentially both top of the order hitters and both top 5-10 prospects IMO.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:46 pm

I think it is way too early to declare Washington a bust. He is still only 19, with a few months of pro experience and one season of juco. He is also coming off injury. If he is struggling to hit his way out of A ball two or three years from now I'll agree. The Rays, who seem to have a pretty solid scouting department, used a first round pick on him two years ago, and he slid to us in the second round last year partly because of cost concerns. I think the talent is there, but sometimes it takes a while for it to show. Sizemore, Santana and Cabrera didn't exactly set the world on fire in the low minors, but once they put it together things turned out pretty well for them. I think patience is key with guys like Washington, Urshella and Lavinksy. They could all flop, or they could all be future all stars.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:14 pm

I'm extending the offer I previously made to Tondo to the rest of the board members.

Petes999 & I will be doing a mid-season 'gallery'. We are only asking for your top 20 overall in the Tribe system.
Send me a PM with me a good email address (that you can access) and I will forward participation info to you. I look forward to all submissions.

I'm getting the participation email sent out today. Mid-season gallery responses are due in July 18.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:30 pm

Law out with his mid-season top 50 (doesn't include prospects who have graduated.. i.e. Chisenhall)

35. Pomeranz
49. Kipnis

Had good things to say about Pomeranz, though it still doesn't seem like he's sold on Kipnis, comparing him to Kelly Johnson....
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:43 pm

A reminder to those interested: deadline for submitting a mid-season top 20 prospect listing (recent draftees only eligible if they have already signed) is this coming Monday 7/18 at 6 pm.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:53 pm

From Goldstein's mid-season top 50:

15. Jason Kipnis, 2B, Indians
In 163 games at the upper levels, he's hit .304 with 72 walks, 21 home runs, and 18 stolen bases in 19 attempts. There is no weakness in his game.

20. Drew Pomeranz, LHP, Indians
The first college pitcher selected in the 2010 draft dominated the California League with his fastball and curve and could rank even higher if his changeup improves.

...he might want to figure out what league Pomeranz was in, but otherwise good to hear. I believe he's the one who has always been significantly higher on Kipnis than the other prominent forecasters.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:22 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:From Goldstein's mid-season top 50:

15. Jason Kipnis, 2B, Indians
In 163 games at the upper levels, he's hit .304 with 72 walks, 21 home runs, and 18 stolen bases in 19 attempts. There is no weakness in his game.

20. Drew Pomeranz, LHP, Indians
The first college pitcher selected in the 2010 draft dominated the California League with his fastball and curve and could rank even higher if his changeup improves.

...he might want to figure out what league Pomeranz was in, but otherwise good to hear. I believe he's the one who has always been significantly higher on Kipnis than the other prominent forecasters.

He might has meant the ALL Star Game where Pomeranz pitched poorly against the the boys from the west?.. (yes.. I know I'm really stretching it.. )... :s_dunno
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby daingean » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:49 pm

I, personally, don't drop Washington too much because of his slow start. This guy is in his first full year in pro ball which means playing every day for the first time in his life (really the same with Lavisky). Plus he's not 100% and didn't start out 100%. I do let guys like Wolters and Agular pass him up because of their impressive starts though. My concerns with Washington was and still is his arm strength. If he cannot stay in the OF because of his arm, there are only 3 positions for him 2B, 1B, and DH.

Now the newly drafted guys like Myles and Lowery could also shoot up. I like Myles' athleticism which he is using very effectively.

As far as Short-Season vs. Low Class A, I'm not sure there is a difference in talent level. The only difference would be experience level (which I think plays more in playing every day).
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:50 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:From Goldstein's mid-season top 50:

15. Jason Kipnis, 2B, Indians
In 163 games at the upper levels, he's hit .304 with 72 walks, 21 home runs, and 18 stolen bases in 19 attempts. There is no weakness in his game.

20. Drew Pomeranz, LHP, Indians
The first college pitcher selected in the 2010 draft dominated the California League with his fastball and curve and could rank even higher if his changeup improves.

...he might want to figure out what league Pomeranz was in, but otherwise good to hear. I believe he's the one who has always been significantly higher on Kipnis than the other prominent forecasters.


Correct. He actually had Kipnis ranked higher than Chisenhall to start this year.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby elrod enchilada » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:50 pm

Obviously Luigi Rodriguez is in an incredible ascent. At this rate, he is a top 20 prospect, and if this continues, a top 10 prospect in a year's time. Tony nailed it when he put Luigi as the best international prospect entering the system in this year's book.

Tony did leave out the three amigos, the three 18 year-old kids who are middle infielders playing very well (it seems) in Arizona. Tony had none of them in his list of 15. They have improved by leaps and bounds this season. I look forward to seeing them at MV next year.

The three amigos are:
Jose Ramirez http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... mire014jos
Jorge Martinez http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... rtin002jor
Robel Garcia http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... rcia004rob

Toss in Jairo Kelly http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... lly-001jai and we have some nice infield prospects.

Along with Luigi Rodriguez, all four of these guys are switch hitters.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:08 pm

Luigi is putting up great numbers so far, but I'm a bit turned off that even his listed size of 5'11", 160 lb. is an obvious exaggeration, and he's already played his way out of the infield. A player like that is going to have to prove himself a couple of rungs higher in the system before I'd give him any consideration for the top 10.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:57 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:Luigi is putting up great numbers so far, but I'm a bit turned off that even his listed size of 5'11", 160 lb. is an obvious exaggeration, and he's already played his way out of the infield. A player like that is going to have to prove himself a couple of rungs higher in the system before I'd give him any consideration for the top 10.


I think it's far too premature to talk about Luigi. While he's an intriguing prospect, he still has a LONG way to go. His size also isn't in his favor.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby artgold » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:54 pm

Keep in mind the Arizona League tends to favor offense a bit. At this time, three teams have batting averages close to or over .300.

Also, of the 13 teams in the league, the Indians are 11th in scoring. But, we have the youngest team in the league so perhaps some players may pan out, but I'd have to say it is pretty early to get too excited about their performances.

They are players worth monitoring, but I wouldn't classify them as "top" anything guys just yet.
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Re: Mid-Season Ranking Lists

Postby elrod enchilada » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:37 pm

all good points. Let's see how Luigi and the three amigos do as they advance int he system.
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