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Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:03 pm

IDK, Jellis.. If you have a desperate need for a catcher like Chun Chen (and the A's do).. and someone came to you and offered a stud catcher with a high ceiling.. for a player who's now 26 or 27.. hasn't been able to stay in the major leagues for what ever reason.. they have to consider it.. That's my point..
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby jellis » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:14 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:IDK, Jellis.. If you have a desperate need for a catcher like Chun Chen (and the A's do).. and someone came to you and offered a stud catcher with a high ceiling.. for a player who's now 26 or 27.. hasn't been able to stay in the major leagues for what ever reason.. they have to consider it.. That's my point..



but why take a C who is 2 to 3 years away, when you can win now. I think they will be contending for the play offs the rotation is that good
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:31 pm

Neither Michael Taylor nor Chun Chen will factor into winning today.. I don't see your point?.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby jellis » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:08 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Neither Michael Taylor nor Chun Chen will factor into winning today.. I don't see your point?.


I think Taylor would be traded for help this year, which is not chen which why I think that trade is not even possible.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:42 am

oh.. okay.. point taken.. I was looking at it from the standpoint that if these were the two players involved in a potential trade, then neither would contribute this year.. Taylor potentially being traded for a player that can help the A's this year.. never entered my mind.... :drinks:
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:03 pm

Per Ghost of Ted Cox...... Here it is, and boy do we need it to work its magic again...if it is not to late... Actually I think Talbot is out now. Too many better options in Columbus. They might give him one more start but if that is anything like this one... IT IS OVER!
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:29 pm

I say cash in on Talbot NOW! I'm seriously considering going for a tryout if Talbot can get out there with his junk maybe I could with a 90mph fastball and 70mph curve throw in a 53mph knuckle and hey I think I could post a 6+ era.

Seriously I'm all for moving Talbot fast everytime his foot touches the mound he loses value... I'd give Huff, Gomez and MacAlister a real tryout before running Toilet out there again.

Could we see the Tribe pick up a vet arm for the run at the div. title?
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Edible14 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:50 pm

Lots of reactionary stuff today.

Talbot is what he is... a back end of the rotation guy. For him to be outed in that role, somebody has to step up and show that they're better... and they have to do it at the MLB level. McAllister hasn't yet. Gomez hasn't looked much better than Talbot to this point. Huff has been demonstrably worse in the past. Guys putting up great numbers in AAA is nice, but lots of guys who aren't very good major leaguers do that.

I honestly think you're not getting anything significantly (i.e, worth dumping the value of Talbot for nothing, because he won't clear waivers) better from those 3 guys. Barnes... maybe... but he's only been in AAA for a little bit and I'd rather see him maintain those numbers for a bit longer before making that call.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:07 am

Every SP not named Kluber at Columbus is able to give 37% QS at the ML level, guaranteed...I'd do Talbot for some low A PTBNL yesterday...no use really, short or long term
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:10 am

Edible14 wrote:Lots of reactionary stuff today.

Talbot is what he is... a back end of the rotation guy. For him to be outed in that role, somebody has to step up and show that they're better... and they have to do it at the MLB level. McAllister hasn't yet. Gomez hasn't looked much better than Talbot to this point. Huff has been demonstrably worse in the past. Guys putting up great numbers in AAA is nice, but lots of guys who aren't very good major leaguers do that.

I honestly think you're not getting anything significantly (i.e, worth dumping the value of Talbot for nothing, because he won't clear waivers) better from those 3 guys. Barnes... maybe... but he's only been in AAA for a little bit and I'd rather see him maintain those numbers for a bit longer before making that call.


I think McAllister is totally in line to get Talbots spot once Carmona comes back. That is if he is up to it. He is auditioning now, and if successfulish(?) its over for Mitch as a starter. In his time up here it looks like Gomez might not do that much better, but he brings a lot more potential to the spot IMO. And Huff and Barnes.. There is just to much depth to keep running him out there at this point. That said... The Tribe is not going to dump Talbot via DFA period. He is far to valuable for that and will go to the pen taking Herrmanns spot most likely, possibly Durbins. Because of the situation he is in here, I think he is going to be added to any trade package if the other team says "and that Talbot guy" if we don't say it first, 2nd and third.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:19 am

Edible14 wrote:Lots of reactionary stuff today.

Talbot is what he is... a back end of the rotation guy. For him to be outed in that role, somebody has to step up and show that they're better... and they have to do it at the MLB level. McAllister hasn't yet. Gomez hasn't looked much better than Talbot to this point. Huff has been demonstrably worse in the past. Guys putting up great numbers in AAA is nice, but lots of guys who aren't very good major leaguers do that.

I honestly think you're not getting anything significantly (i.e, worth dumping the value of Talbot for nothing, because he won't clear waivers) better from those 3 guys. Barnes... maybe... but he's only been in AAA for a little bit and I'd rather see him maintain those numbers for a bit longer before making that call.


Difference between Talbot and those guys is that while they might not perform much better NOW, there is a reason to go through the bumps and bruises. Why? Because Gomez and McAllister are 23. This type of struggle you can put up with if there is upside or a light at the end of the tunnel, but with Talbot there just isn't any. Even Huff had a nice season before he fell off the map. What has Talbot proven?

And it's not just about that, but Alex White and Drew Pomeranz are close on the radar in the future. Wouldn't you like to know what you have in Gomez/McAllister, maybe even Huff before we hand the job over to them?

It's not just about Talbot struggling, to me it's about the long-run benefits of keeping him in the lineup. Aside from a non-quality start, I just don't see any benefit. It's not reactionary it's been that way with me for a while now.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:46 am

Last night made me realize how impactful the injury to Alex White is. In his starts he was very good. Genmar Gomez has also been effective in his starts compared to Talbot.

It gets down to the coaching staff looking at the details of what is going on and knowing if it is talent or technique that is the fundamental problem. Tomlin does not throw hard - but there is some magic with him.

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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:08 am

Edible14 wrote:Lots of reactionary stuff today.

Talbot is what he is... a back end of the rotation guy. For him to be outed in that role, somebody has to step up and show that they're better... and they have to do it at the MLB level. McAllister hasn't yet. Gomez hasn't looked much better than Talbot to this point. Huff has been demonstrably worse in the past. Guys putting up great numbers in AAA is nice, but lots of guys who aren't very good major leaguers do that.

I honestly think you're not getting anything significantly (i.e, worth dumping the value of Talbot for nothing, because he won't clear waivers) better from those 3 guys. Barnes... maybe... but he's only been in AAA for a little bit and I'd rather see him maintain those numbers for a bit longer before making that call.

JeanMar did show he was better..actually much better. After his first start, JeanMar showed he is as good, if not better, that just about anyone in the starting staff not named Masterson. Huff's results are in the past..since his demotion back to the minors, he's added the cut fastball to his arsenal giving him, what I refer as, a weapon. "Demonstrably worse" is inaccurate. Talbot now: 7.38 ERA over his last 9 starts. Huff 6.21 ERA over 15 starts. While this maybe an inaccurate comparison of the two (2011 stats versus 2010 stats), Huff has been better. Keeping Scotty Barnes at AAA is the proper path for him. Once he has some seasoning there, then he could be given consideration for promotion.

Expectations can be burdensome. When asked "how do you think the Indians will do tonight" regarding this second game of the series w/ Toronto..my reply was... "..I hope Talbot can only give up 5 runs in four innings before he's yanked.." Well, he didn't get yanked.. and gave up another 3 runs in 1.1 IP.. Talbot has lost all five of his last decisions and the Indians have lost six of his last seven starts.. IT'S TIME FOR A CHANGE..
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:30 am

@ EDIBLE 14 I hardly call it reactionary stuff... TALBOT has been awful with the exception of two starts early on. McAlister and Gomez offer at least the chance to win and would gain a lot from pitching down the this stretch run as the tribe approaches the playoffs. Both guys are pitching at a high level at AAA and are only 23 while Talbot is 27-28 with a 6+ era. Its not a small sample size either. Gomez and McAlister however have only pitched a handful of games.

I'm not sure McAlister's 1st start was all too bad. McAlister was juiced for the game and it showed, something that will change with time, the strike zone left a bit to be desired but thats part of the game as well and McAlister showed the ability to strike out guys too. McAlister has the potential to be a 200 innings guy with a good 5 pitch mix, that definately brings more to the table than Talbot.

At this point I think HUFF has pitched his way back into being a prospect and possible late bloomer, he's worked on his change and added the cutter... probably ends up traded at the deadline. He is back of the rotation maybe a lefty bullpen arm but nonetheless HUFF has more value than TALBOT. Consider what the Tribe got when they acq. him for SHOPPACH, thats what the trade was TALBOT for SHOPPACH...pretty fair trade the Tribe actually may have came out the winner.

I say trade off Talbot, he might actually be a better pitcher in the NL maybe a team like Houston would take their chances on him or another team without much pitching depth. Just saying he has little value but would get snagged up if DFA. He could bring back a low A player with talent but still about 5-6 yrs from approaching the majors ala Peralta for Soto. Maybe a guy like Casey Blake whose path is blocked to the majors or even take a chance on a guy recovering from injury. Could flat out take back cash and then invest it into the International market.

The Tribe simply can't keep Talbot around simply because he has some value. Looks every bit the part of a AAAA pitcher maybe a longman / 5th starter somewhere, but if the Tribe intends to win they must do so within their system and making affordable additions. Leaving Talbot in the rotation, hoping he turns things around is not a luxury the Tribe can afford if they intend to contend the remainder of the season.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby osueddy » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:48 am

To answer the title of this thread....

YES, I too have had enough of Mitch Talbot. Even if we weren't contending, the coaching staff and front office might be looking to get a different arm a look.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:39 am

Mitch Talbot: Career FIP: 4.94, xFIP: 4.87, GB%: 46, BABIP: .319, average outing is about 5 2/3 innings

Gomez: FIP: 4.43, xFIP: 4.55, GB%: 45.9, .341, average outing is 5 innnings

Gomez has been slightly better career wise. I wouldn't say any of that is so much better that it's worth dumping a perfectly good back of the rotation arm for nothing. Gomez has had plenty of bad starts where he's given up a lot of runs and had to be pulled before the 5th inning... which isn't a good thing for a pitcher. Now... this year... I don't think he's had those at the major league level (was pulled in the 5th vs KC after giving up 5, that's the worst of his 3 starts), but you also have to understand that it's an incredibly small sample size to work with.

Here's the other thing about Gomez. He's been up long enough that the book will be out on him. I'm not convinced that he won't end up needing to make significant adjustments almost as soon as he's here.

As for Huff... I'm right on board with the "he's better now" crowd. But bringing him up to dump Talbot is a risk. You can't pass Talbot through waivers, so he's gone if you make that move. And if Huff comes up and goes back to his old ways? Well, now you're going to Gomez. And if somebody gets hurt? Then you've got ZMac (who's a risk), Huff (who's a bigger risk) or trying to clear room for Barnes.

Talbot is a perfectly fine back end guy. He's an asset, and not one they should be eager to part with.

Now, if we can get some trade value for him... I'd do that in a heartbeat.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:06 am

Edible14 wrote:Mitch Talbot: Career FIP: 4.94, xFIP: 4.87, GB%: 46, BABIP: .319, average outing is about 5 2/3 innings

Gomez: FIP: 4.43, xFIP: 4.55, GB%: 45.9, .341, average outing is 5 innnings

Gomez has been slightly better career wise. I wouldn't say any of that is so much better that it's worth dumping a perfectly good back of the rotation arm for nothing. Gomez has had plenty of bad starts where he's given up a lot of runs and had to be pulled before the 5th inning... which isn't a good thing for a pitcher. Now... this year... I don't think he's had those at the major league level (was pulled in the 5th vs KC after giving up 5, that's the worst of his 3 starts), but you also have to understand that it's an incredibly small sample size to work with.

Here's the other thing about Gomez. He's been up long enough that the book will be out on him. I'm not convinced that he won't end up needing to make significant adjustments almost as soon as he's here.

As for Huff... I'm right on board with the "he's better now" crowd. But bringing him up to dump Talbot is a risk. You can't pass Talbot through waivers, so he's gone if you make that move. And if Huff comes up and goes back to his old ways? Well, now you're going to Gomez. And if somebody gets hurt? Then you've got ZMac (who's a risk), Huff (who's a bigger risk) or trying to clear room for Barnes.

Talbot is a perfectly fine back end guy. He's an asset, and not one they should be eager to part with.

Now, if we can get some trade value for him... I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Perfectly fine as a fifth starter?.. are you kidding?

The job of a BOR is to keep the team in the game.. get five innings of more...take the ball every fifth day. w/r to this criteria.. Talbot has been able to accomplish only getting to the fifth inning.. Six losses in seven starts.. says he's not giving the team a chance to win.. making every start?.. well, read the DL postings. In short, Talbot gives up runs early, often and consistently. He doesn't keep the team in the game by digging a deeeeeeeep hole in each outing.

A hypothetical question could be raised; If the Indians were hopelessly out of the race for the AL Central (let's not kid ourselves to think the WC is a realistic goal).. wouldn't Talbot already be on the trading block/in the bullpen/ someone else's problem? ...and wouldn't JeanMar, Huff and others already be in Cleveland being given a chance to show they belong?

Well.. the converse is true.. If a pitcher has shown that he CANNOT compete as part of the team that is fighting for the AL Central lead, then it's time for a change.. JeanMar made 11 appearances in 2010 and 4 appearances in 2011. In those 15, 4 were terrible and 11 were very good. 72 IP: Total Earned Runs: 40: 17 IP in 4 appearances: 24 earned runs, 12.71 ERA; 57 IP in 11 appearances: 16 earned runs, 2.52 ERA.. While you can't remove a bad start because the stats say it makes him look bad.. you can look at the stats and see, with refinement and maturity, that he does have the ability to consistently pitch very well. He should be given that opportunity as the current alternative is just KILLING the team...

Mitch Talbot?. time to go...
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:14 am

I believe Talbot is not 100%. His ERA since coming off the DL is 7.38. He's not that bad. Something is wrong with his arm.

In his second start on April 11 he shut out the Angels for 8+ innings, throwing 112 pitches. The next day he was on the DL. He hasn't been the same pitcher since, not even close.

I think Acta made a huge mistake by letting Talbot throw 112 pitches in early April. Now they're paying the price.

IMO they should put Talbot on the DL until his arm is 100%. The Tribe has little or no chance to win when he pitches and they're still in contention. They have three guys in Columbus who are pitching very effectively, plus Huff if they want to give him one more shot. Time to make the move.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:54 am

I don't know if there's something medically wrong with Talbot or just mechanically, but it's no longer an issue of talent, potential or stats. We're not even seeing decent performances by Talbot's past standards, let alone anyone else's. In his past couple of outings (and it's possible that I just didn't see previous ones), Marson has had to reach outside his frame to catch pitches over and over and over again. I don't care if it's Talbot, Carrasco or Masterson, no one is going to have success missing their target that badly that often... he's even missed a few strikes because the pitch still missed the target badly enough to fool the umpire. Then he's following those up with bp pitches that are getting tattooed. Even the outs are loud.

If Talbot was frequently pitching like he did last year, there would be an argument for risk vs. potential between letting him continue to start vs. promoting a AAA arm. However, there's no risk in giving starts to a AAA arm over this version of Talbot... any starter can give up more than a run per inning and get yanked in the 5th. In 8 of 11 starts, Talbot has put the team behind on the scoreboard at some point, and they've lost 7 of those. I'd be shocked if McAllister, Gomez or Huff could do any worse than that.

A couple weeks ago I was thinking that they should try to peddle Talbot in any possible deal while giving him until the trading deadline to right the ship. However, I don't think there's any way that he can do anything but continue killing his trade value the way he's pitching right now. It would require a major and sudden adjustment to what he's doing. I suppose the silver lining is that by the end of the month he could very well pass through waivers.
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:31 am

Hello Columbus !!...

It's all but official now that JeanMar will be making a start for the Scrappers (probably a three inning cameo to get loose and then get out of dodge).. setting him up to take Talbot's spot in the rotation when the Indians play the Twins in Minnesota in a day /night, separate admission double header make up of the game from back in April.

It was mentioned in this or another thread that the Indians would go to the All Star Break before making a change, that is proving to be accurate. Here's hoping Mitch Talbot finds whatever is wrong (physical, mechanical, emotional, vegetable, mineral..) and fixes it.. :good:
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:41 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Here's hoping Mitch Talbot finds whatever is wrong (physical, mechanical, emotional, vegetable, mineral..) and fixes it.. :good:


With another team?

Seriously, do you think he's clearing waivers?

Anyway, why are we thinking this is the end of Talbot? Why couldn't it just be the case that Gomez is getting the spot start for the double-header instead of ZMac?
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:06 am

Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Here's hoping Mitch Talbot finds whatever is wrong (physical, mechanical, emotional, vegetable, mineral..) and fixes it.. :good:


With another team?

Seriously, do you think he's clearing waivers?

Anyway, why are we thinking this is the end of Talbot? Why couldn't it just be the case that Gomez is getting the spot start for the double-header instead of ZMac?
Ed.. clear waivers? yes.. but, you could be right.. this could be a spot start and back to the minors.. However.. if JeanMar does what he has been doing over his last 10 starts (including the disaster in Toledo), then he could stick. JeanMar's stuff translates well at the MLB Level.

This is a general statement, not specific to JeanMar, but it can be applied to each and every pitcher on the roster. Can they learn more? Do they learn more by staying at AAA?. Probably yes to both, but, at the same time, a pitcher like JeanMar can also learn to refine his approach with the daily assistance of Rads and Belcher. JeanMar, like all of the other pitchers (both starters and relievers) need to command their pitches with a "middle of the plate, OUT" approach. That is, if JeanMar, or Chris Perez, or, especially Tomlin, are going to miss their spot.. they have to miss going away from the middle of the plate. If they're shooting for the outside part of the plate, their miss needs to be further outside. If they're going for a ball up in the zone over the plate.. their miss needs to be above the belt over the plate. Too many times, with Talbot, his misses are exactly the opposite of this. If he shooting for the outside corner, his miss is toward the batter, when his miss should be further away. This brings up the possibility of more walks, however, I've never heard of a three run walk.. Only pitchers with high velo's combined with nasty movement, like Fausto & Masterson, can get away with mistakes contrary to this approach. Even then, these two guys get hurt. The plate is 17 inches wide, the baseball is just under 3 inches in diameter.. That gives a pitcher just under two feet of side to side distance to work with. Pitches that are more than 8 inches from the outer extremes toward the center are what get hard and often.. While this math application seems to be a bit "simplistic", the game of baseball is simple. Don't throw the ball down the middle of the plate and the pitcher can consistently get batters out.

Let's hope that the command Talbot has shown in short flashes in the recent past is regained so he can be a productive ML Starting Pitcher again. He's young enough.. now it's all about execution...
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Re: Has anyone else seen just about enough Mitch Talbot?

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:31 am

Prosecutor wrote:I believe Talbot is not 100%. His ERA since coming off the DL is 7.38. He's not that bad. Something is wrong with his arm....

IMO they should put Talbot on the DL until his arm is 100%.


They just put him on the DL with a strained back. Not sure if that's an injury of convenience or if he's really hurt, but based on what he showed last year and that start against the Angels in April, a healthy Talbot doesn't put up a 7.38 ERA.

Now Gomez has a chance to nail down a spot in the rotation for the rest of the year. He's done about everything he can do in AAA. Now he needs to show he's ready for the Show.
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