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More cuts in spring training....

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More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:57 pm

Tribe has cut a few more players from ML camp.

Most notably Jeremy Sowers, who was sent to Columbus. I thought he earned at least another start (at least moreso than Laffey) with how he's pitched lately....but obviously not.

Saarloos was the other #5 candidate sent down (though a big longshot).

Leaves Laffey, Lewis (who yahoo seems to think is the 'clear front-runner' now for the #5 spot), and Jackson (also bullpen candidate).


The other 5 cut were LaPorta, Wyatt Toregas, Greg Aquino, Michael Aubrey, and Michael Brantley.

12 cuts left to be made...
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby npc29 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:34 pm

Didn't think Scott Lewis would still be in the running this late, but tip your hat to him. He's got a damn good shot to win it with a few weeks left.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:41 pm

I've always been more of a fan of Scott Lewis then of Aaron Laffey.
At this point it appears that Sowers needs to find a fresh start with another organization. I don't believe Jeremy would net a lot in a trade by himself but if packaged with another player, a viable piece/ part might be able to netted.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby stoike » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:10 pm

I think Sowers can still be a nice #4 starter for the Tribe. He has jacked up his velocity, and started to show a bit better command in spring training. Though I was NEVER a huge Sowers fan, I have not given up on him yet.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:17 am

I still think Sowers will be a nice #4 in this league. He took a lot from Fasano last year (man I wish he were still around), and has been much smarter with the use of his fastball.

I fear Lewis could have a 2009 like Sowers did in 2007. Great in his short first stint and good spring....but hitters caught on. Lewis's stuff just doesn't seem that special to me....but he locates pitches so for a #5, can't really ask for anything more.

One nice thing if Lewis can win the #5 spot.....does that make Laffey trade bait then? Unlike Sowers, he still has some decent trade value. He's only 23 still (soon to be 24). A team like the O's badly needs some pitching right now (and Laffey is a Maryland native). Just an example of a team though. Team like the Reds may need a starter if an injury happens (and they have NO lefties in that rotation right now).


The first two months of the season will be VERY intersting to watch......

Does Looch last til June? Does Kobayashi? Do the Indians even break camp with 5 starters? Can Graffanino make this team and stick? Can LaPorta make a Braun-like jump and contribute?
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby npc29 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:50 pm

Scott Lewis wins the spot. Interesting stuff.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:03 pm

npc29 wrote:Scott Lewis wins the spot. Interesting stuff.


Is that official?
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:14 pm

ha, nevermind. Saw the Plain Dealer report now.


I was kind of looking forward to seeing the reception he would get though playing in Columbus this spring.....

o well. Do what's best for the big league club.


Also, according to yahoo, Lewis won the #4 spot. The report says that Reyes will be the #5 to help limit his use early on.....also separates the two lefties (lee and lewis)....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby npc29 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:56 pm

Hermie13 wrote:ha, nevermind. Saw the Plain Dealer report now.


I was kind of looking forward to seeing the reception he would get though playing in Columbus this spring.....

o well. Do what's best for the big league club.


Also, according to yahoo, Lewis won the #4 spot. The report says that Reyes will be the #5 to help limit his use early on.....also separates the two lefties (lee and lewis)....


Makes sense.. PD updated their story saying he'll pitch the home opener, so he'll technically be the #4 guy. I like that plan in terms of what it does for Reyes.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:20 pm

npc29 wrote:Makes sense.. PD updated their story saying he'll pitch the home opener, so he'll technically be the #4 guy. I like that plan in terms of what it does for Reyes.


I like it....and I don't. I do like that they are protecting Reyes....but it's not like Lewis has had the best of luck with his arm either.....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby jellis » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:51 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
npc29 wrote:Makes sense.. PD updated their story saying he'll pitch the home opener, so he'll technically be the #4 guy. I like that plan in terms of what it does for Reyes.


I like it....and I don't. I do like that they are protecting Reyes....but it's not like Lewis has had the best of luck with his arm either.....


lewis was the only one with a possible plus pitch might as well see if he is the man as sowers and laffey have failed to step up the past 2 years
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:25 am

jellis wrote:lewis was the only one with a possible plus pitch might as well see if he is the man as sowers and laffey have failed to step up the past 2 years


eh, Laffey has a decent plus pitch. He's got a good sinker. It's no Carmona-like sinker but more of a Westbrook-like one. When he's got it going he's very tough.

Lewis is lucky to hit 90mph with that fastball. He does have a good changeup and has a good differential with it....but I'm still worried about how he'll far against advanced hitters for a full season....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:40 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:lewis was the only one with a possible plus pitch might as well see if he is the man as sowers and laffey have failed to step up the past 2 years


eh, Laffey has a decent plus pitch. He's got a good sinker. It's no Carmona-like sinker but more of a Westbrook-like one. When he's got it going he's very tough.

Lewis is lucky to hit 90mph with that fastball. He does have a good changeup and has a good differential with it....but I'm still worried about how he'll far against advanced hitters for a full season....

Sorry, Hermie, to be blunt but Laffey does not have anything resembling a plus pitch. And Lewis' plus pitch is his curve. These are not eyes of the beholder stuff. I won't waste time arguing the point.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:10 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Sorry, Hermie, to be blunt but Laffey does not have anything resembling a plus pitch. And Lewis' plus pitch is his curve. These are not eyes of the beholder stuff. I won't waste time arguing the point.


no need to be sorry dude. I just don't see anything that special about the curveball of Lewis (yes, I realize BA rated it the best in the Tribe system). It's a nice 12-6 curve....but if his changeup isn't effective, he'll be nothing at the ML level. The key to Lewis's success this year will be spotting that changeup and keeping hitters off balance, not his curveball (though he'll most definitely need the curveball). Even Tony referred to his changeup as a plus pitch.....


And I feel you're underrating Laffey's sinker here as well. Not quite a plus pitch yet, but it's getting there.

I was more pointing out that Lewis's 'plus' pitch isn't all that great, rather than trying to talk up Laffey's stuff.....

Laffey had an even BETTER stretch than Lewis had last year as well at the ML level. The month of May last year was a great month of our pitchers and Laffey included. In 5 May starts he had an ERA of 0.79! Even falling off at the end he had a respectable ERA of 4.23.


I do hope I'm wrong and Lewis steps up big time.....but I'm not holding my breath....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:21 pm

No doubt, Lewis is the more talented and projectable pitcher than Laffey. But, translating that ability to results on the field is not always easy. Laffey's ability to maximize his abilities and get pretty good results on the field is a testament to his work ethic and toughness. Lewis has had the misfortune of some injuries and some inconsistency (2007), but really seemed to hit his stride second half last year.

I'm thankful we have both in our system. Excellent MOR and BOR depth.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:38 pm

I'm curious if a package of Sowers and Mujica would net a player of decent abilities from San Diego.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby jellis » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:11 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I'm curious if a package of Sowers and Mujica would net a player of decent abilities from San Diego.



mujica has little to no value and sowers is on the value level of a zack jackson at this point, and outside of AGON at 1B who is worth a darn on that team who isnt on arb
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:53 pm

jellis wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:I'm curious if a package of Sowers and Mujica would net a player of decent abilities from San Diego.



mujica has little to no value and sowers is on the value level of a zack jackson at this point, and outside of AGON at 1B who is worth a darn on that team who isnt on arb


Don't know and I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of their individual worth at this point. Maybe we can take a flyer on a middle infielder. I'd rather get something then nothing.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:52 pm

I am going to use this spot to weigh in on a couple more observations from Peoria. First of all, I might have been premature in relegating Hafner to the DL. He looked like he learned something from the day before. Much better zone coverage and pitch recognition. Just missed a couple of pitches he used to hammer. Timing is still not great but showed improvement. The power will not be back until he gets more confidence. As Art said, he has his down too much. But i think there is hope.

Trevor Crowe just might not be ready. Like Gimenez, the games appears too fast for him at times. I know he had some hits but they came late against Padre scrubs. I don't think I would take him north instead of Dellucci.

I read that Kobayashi was lights out today. Don't be fooled by his Peoria stats. His performance was not good. Certainly owes Francisco a beer! But I am glad he showed some pitching skills today even though I was not there to see it. have the game on tape to watch tonight.

Hell of a performance by Garko in RF. Might have got a slow break on a ball that turned into a ground rule double but he surrounded the ball like a true trooper otherwise. Not sure we want this to become a habit in the regular season though. Less impressed with his plate performance. Still uppercuts on occasion. Speaking of J-Barf as a CF, he looked good. Maybe even better than at 2B. I pretty much laughed at the idea of both in the OF but much better than I guessed it would be.

Last but not least, I am glad Eddie Moo is not my decision to make. He has some skills but I wonder if he can get his emotions under control to be an effective ML pitcher.

If anyone has questions about anyone please ask. My focus is limited to a considerable extent but I watched the game intently.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:59 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I'm curious if a package of Sowers and Mujica would net a player of decent abilities from San Diego.

San Diego would have to have such a player. Not much talent on the ML roster or upper minors except for Blanks. We seem to have enough 1B types. Could pick out one or more A ball players who has potential but I don't see that happening with their new ownership. I would guess Mu is history but not sure Sowers isn't good depth to have.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby jellis » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:03 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:I'm curious if a package of Sowers and Mujica would net a player of decent abilities from San Diego.

San Diego would have to have such a player. Not much talent on the ML roster or upper minors except for Blanks. We seem to have enough 1B types. Could pick out one or more A ball players who has potential but I don't see that happening with their new ownership. I would guess Mu is history but not sure Sowers isn't good depth to have.



yeah I agree, SD should lose 100 games this year even with one of the top 5 1B in baseball and an ace type pitcher
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:25 pm

While I understand the idea of depth, I really wonder if Sowers best serves the Indians in that capacity.
Depth also exists in Laffey, Zach Jackson, David Huff and Jake Westbrook (come June or even July). In the event of COMPLETE DISASTER, I am sure others out of the minors can be pulled up.

If we didn't have any lefties among the rotation depth, I could understand the idea of having a lefty like Sowers but since 3 of the depth guys are left handed, I ask how much redudent depth is necessary??
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:09 am

I was actually about to post about Laffey being made available to teams....

He's gotta have more trade value right now than Sowers. He was pretty solid for much of his time up last year even though he had just turned 23 less than a month prior to his callup.

He's younger than Sowers, Huff, and Lewis as well. The team I was thinking was the Orioles. Laffey is from Maryland actually, and the O's really need some pitching right now. Not exactly sure what we'd want....if Hafner is still iffy a guy like Luke Scott would be pretty nice (yes, I know we had him originally). Has 20 HR power and is under team control for anther 3 years after this one i believe (was a super 2 this year). Makes in the $2M range I believe....so really wouldn't break the bank.

Again though, if Hafner is healthy it'd be hard to fit him in.....though I'd rather have him in LF than Francisco (personal preference though). The Nats are another team that could use Laffey......as could the Padres.


One guy from the Padres that I'd like is Giles. Yes, he old but still gets on base at a high clip and plays a good RF. He makes a ton so they'd have to take Looch from us for any deal to work.....but if the reports are true that they need to still cut about $3-4M to reach their budget, taking Looch (and guys like Laffey/prospects) for Giles would do it. Big issue is Giles has a full no-trade clause and likes the west coast.....but he has played in Cleveland....perhaps he'd be open to it with all the issues going on in SD. Again, I'd rather have him in the lineup than Fran...



Though when all is said and done...barring a blockbuster deal for a guy like Roy Halladay, I doubt any starters are moved as Shapiro loves having a ton of depth there (not really a bad thing though).....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:50 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:While I understand the idea of depth, I really wonder if Sowers best serves the Indians in that capacity.
Depth also exists in Laffey, Zach Jackson, David Huff and Jake Westbrook (come June or even July). In the event of COMPLETE DISASTER, I am sure others out of the minors can be pulled up.

If we didn't have any lefties among the rotation depth, I could understand the idea of having a lefty like Sowers but since 3 of the depth guys are left handed, I ask how much redudent depth is necessary??

I come from an era where you cannot have too much starting LH pitching so I likely have some preconceived notions. However, even if that is not true, I think a reasonable case can be made for the LH depth. I believe you need young depth for a rotation filled with cases of recent health issues. We have four pitchers in the current rotation who experienced health problems last year and that does not count Westbrook and Laffey. We don't have any RH depth in Columbus. Yes, I know about Hermann and Saarloos. The first RHer with TOR/MOR upside is a 20 YO in Akron.

My feeling LH depth is better than no depth but if we are fortunate health and performance wise, Sowers could be a redundancy. I wouldn't take the risk but you aren't necessarily wrong in your thoughts. :s_drinks
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:13 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I come from an era where you cannot have too much starting LH pitching so I likely have some preconceived notions. However, even if that is not true, I think a reasonable case can be made for the LH depth. I believe you need young depth for a rotation filled with cases of recent health issues. We have four pitchers in the current rotation who experienced health problems last year and that does not count Westbrook and Laffey. We don't have any RH depth in Columbus. Yes, I know about Hermann and Saarloos. The first RHer with TOR/MOR upside is a 20 YO in Akron.

My feeling LH depth is better than no depth but if we are fortunate health and performance wise, Sowers could be a redundancy. I wouldn't take the risk but you aren't necessarily wrong in your thoughts. :s_drinks


What era is that? The 50s? ;) Just kidding there.


I agree it's nice having all the lefty depth.....but like you pointed out, there's almost no right handed pitching in this system. The Tribe always seems to be loaded with lefties (like i mentioned in another thread....Lee, Traber, Tallet, and Stanford a few years ago...and now all the ones we have currently).


I wouldn't go out of our way to trade any of them....but I'd feel around and see what bites with Laffey (or Sowers I guess too). Consider that the Reds may have zero lefties in their rotation of Harang, Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, and Owings/Bailey. A lefty like Laffey would look really nice in that rotation.....

Reds do have Sandusky native Matt Maloney on the roster.....but he could end up in the pen after a lackluster showing at AAA last year.....he's 25 and may never be more than a Jackson type....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:34 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I come from an era where you cannot have too much starting LH pitching so I likely have some preconceived notions. However, even if that is not true, I think a reasonable case can be made for the LH depth. I believe you need young depth for a rotation filled with cases of recent health issues. We have four pitchers in the current rotation who experienced health problems last year and that does not count Westbrook and Laffey. We don't have any RH depth in Columbus. Yes, I know about Hermann and Saarloos. The first RHer with TOR/MOR upside is a 20 YO in Akron.

My feeling LH depth is better than no depth but if we are fortunate health and performance wise, Sowers could be a redundancy. I wouldn't take the risk but you aren't necessarily wrong in your thoughts. :s_drinks


What era is that? The 50s? ;) Just kidding there.


I agree it's nice having all the lefty depth.....but like you pointed out, there's almost no right handed pitching in this system. The Tribe always seems to be loaded with lefties (like i mentioned in another thread....Lee, Traber, Tallet, and Stanford a few years ago...and now all the ones we have currently).


I wouldn't go out of our way to trade any of them....but I'd feel around and see what bites with Laffey (or Sowers I guess too). Consider that the Reds may have zero lefties in their rotation of Harang, Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, and Owings/Bailey. A lefty like Laffey would look really nice in that rotation.....

Reds do have Sandusky native Matt Maloney on the roster.....but he could end up in the pen after a lackluster showing at AAA last year.....he's 25 and may never be more than a Jackson type....


Actually, pretty close. My first baseball game was the '48 series which my grandfather took me to see when I was 5. Succinctly put, I am older than dirt!
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:52 pm

You've broken the Golden Rule Norm..... message boards allow us all to pretend that we're able bodied 18 year olds with in no way receeding hair lines.... how dare you!!! haha
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:28 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:You've broken the Golden Rule Norm..... message boards allow us all to pretend that we're able bodied 18 year olds with in no way receeding hair lines.... how dare you!!! haha

You can still pretend, daz! You didn't meet up with Art at ST! :s_biggrin
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby artgold » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:06 pm

You mean you didn't go down during San Diego State U spring break? Great to meet you, Norm.

Regarding the Laffey discussion, if you want to look for a potential trading partner (frankly, I'd keep him...but for the sake of this discussion let's assume he would be dealt) I'd pick the other team I follow closely, Philly.

Their ballpark is custom made for Laffey, a pitcher who creates a lot of grounders. Their infielders are a good match for him too, Rollins and Utley would give him a lot of confidence on the mound. Also, with his game approach, he is a natural for working through a non-DH lineup.

Looking at their team, they have some stuff that may be of interest to the Indians, especially infielder Jason Donald. He would basically be a great infield insurance policy, kind of a Jamey Carroll with a much better bat. Not a great fielder, but has sufficient talent to play SS, 3rd or 2nd without embarassing himself.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:03 am

artgold wrote:You mean you didn't go down during San Diego State U spring break? Great to meet you, Norm.

Regarding the Laffey discussion, if you want to look for a potential trading partner (frankly, I'd keep him...but for the sake of this discussion let's assume he would be dealt) I'd pick the other team I follow closely, Philly.

Their ballpark is custom made for Laffey, a pitcher who creates a lot of grounders. Their infielders are a good match for him too, Rollins and Utley would give him a lot of confidence on the mound. Also, with his game approach, he is a natural for working through a non-DH lineup.

Looking at their team, they have some stuff that may be of interest to the Indians, especially infielder Jason Donald. He would basically be a great infield insurance policy, kind of a Jamey Carroll with a much better bat. Not a great fielder, but has sufficient talent to play SS, 3rd or 2nd without embarassing himself.

I think I can second that, Art! At least tell them how immature I am!

I am a little wary of Donald's arm on the left side of the IF but he would make an excellent long term utility man. Probably fits even better than DeRosa.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:50 pm

I understand that Crowe and Gimenez have both been sent down. Interesting that Dellucci is injured at the same time but no idea how serious. Can we call J-Barf as a winner of the coveted 25th man? Hermie's Graffanino call may look omniscient if the Looch is seriously injured. Please enlighten us great leader!
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:14 pm

Castro has just said the Barfield is indeed on the club.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives ... rfiel.html
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby jellis » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:09 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Castro has just said the Barfield is indeed on the club.

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives ... rfiel.html



Not surprised by all accounts he was solid in the field and his versatility and slight speed gave him the spot even if he still cant hit, how often do you really use the last guy on the bench and better to have a barfield there then a crowe who could use the extra reps everyday
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby dnosco » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:23 pm

A couple of points:

1. This gives us two no-hit, defensive guys on our bench (Carroll).

2. Barfield can't pinch hit because he can't hit.

3. Putting him in defensively will actually hurt the defense as he is not as good an outfielder as Francisco or Choo and maybe even Dellucci, based on Dellucci's experience, not as good a secondbaseman or thirdbaseman as Cabrera/Carroll or DeRosa/Carroll/Peralta (maybe).

4. All of the above means that his only value is as the designated pinch runner for the DH in the 9th inning of a game in which we are down by a run. Pinch running him in a tie game is problematic as you lose your DH if we don't score.

5. He is the emergency replacement for multiple positions if someone gets sick right before a game and a replacement can't be called up in time. Even at that, he creates a huge hole offensively in the lineup which essentially means you can't have him and Carroll in the lineup at the same time.

4. and 5. are pretty slim reasons to keep a guy on the roster. It is almost impossible for me to believe that a guy who barely hits .200 in ST gets a roster spot. While this is probably just temporary and it actually helps Crowe and Gimenez get ABs at AAA, it really means that our bench is among the thinnest in all of baseball, IMHO.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby TheWord » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:51 pm

While this is probably just temporary and it actually helps Crowe and Gimenez get ABs at AAA, it really means that our bench is among the thinnest in all of baseball, IMHO.



For April anyway...
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby dnosco » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:57 pm

Add to the fact that this club has serious question marks:

1. The ENTIRE starting rotation due to injury and previous poor performance and general lack of stuff from the bottom end of the rotation.
2. The last 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen.
3. Our DH.

Add our bench to that (Dellucci, Carroll, Barfield and Shoppach) and this club is positioning itself to have its worst record since 1992. Not saying it is going to happen but, given the clues so far this spring, it wouldn't be a huge upset if that happened.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby artgold » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:00 pm

Gotta tell you though, after seeing Gimenez quite a bit in Arizona last week I have some reservations about his ability to play in the majors.

He was clearly overmatched. It might be an adjustment issue, and maybe he just needs to get comfortable, but he clearly isn't ready right now.

Considering he is already 26 years old, I have some doubts despite his minor league performance and defensive flexibility.

Barfield was exceptional defensively, both in the IF and CF.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby artgold » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:09 pm

It is possible Dennis, but I suspect the team will have between 90-95 wins this season.

Making this very brief, the club has some depth at pitching if they need another starter or two. The pen also has some minor league depth. Looking at probability, I think it is likely that two of the three between Lee, Carmona and Reyes have a good season, and that someone between Lewis/Laffey/Sowers has a somewhat decent season (or a couple have some decent months). Pavano is iffy, but he may be OK, and then you have the Westbrook possibility later in the season.

Not perfect, but our competion has risks and limitations too, however I think we have the best depth.

The team on the field shouldn't be bad either, without going position by position I think we should be among the top 5 in the AL in total runs scored, which is actually the only critical offensive statistic (everything else is just how you get to the total runs scored).
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:59 pm

dnosco wrote:A couple of points:

1. This gives us two no-hit, defensive guys on our bench (Carroll).

2. Barfield can't pinch hit because he can't hit.

3. Putting him in defensively will actually hurt the defense as he is not as good an outfielder as Francisco or Choo and maybe even Dellucci, based on Dellucci's experience, not as good a secondbaseman or thirdbaseman as Cabrera/Carroll or DeRosa/Carroll/Peralta (maybe).

4. All of the above means that his only value is as the designated pinch runner for the DH in the 9th inning of a game in which we are down by a run. Pinch running him in a tie game is problematic as you lose your DH if we don't score.

5. He is the emergency replacement for multiple positions if someone gets sick right before a game and a replacement can't be called up in time. Even at that, he creates a huge hole offensively in the lineup which essentially means you can't have him and Carroll in the lineup at the same time.

4. and 5. are pretty slim reasons to keep a guy on the roster. It is almost impossible for me to believe that a guy who barely hits .200 in ST gets a roster spot. While this is probably just temporary and it actually helps Crowe and Gimenez get ABs at AAA, it really means that our bench is among the thinnest in all of baseball, IMHO.

Much ado about nothing! Five reasons that are uttlerly irrelevant to the Indians' depth. My point would be that you have it bassackwards. This is why the bench and depth is strong, not weak.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:08 pm

dnosco wrote:Add to the fact that this club has serious question marks:

1. The ENTIRE starting rotation due to injury and previous poor performance and general lack of stuff from the bottom end of the rotation.
2. The last 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen.
3. Our DH.

Add our bench to that (Dellucci, Carroll, Barfield and Shoppach) and this club is positioning itself to have its worst record since 1992. Not saying it is going to happen but, given the clues so far this spring, it wouldn't be a huge upset if that happened.

I notice you left yourself an out but if you really believe what you are saying about the record, I could be persuaded to give you odds on that likelihood. But your points do have relevance in this case. I am sure you will be the first to give kudos to Shapiro and Wedge if they overcome this terrible lack of talent to win a few games! :s_rofl
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:19 pm

artgold wrote:Gotta tell you though, after seeing Gimenez quite a bit in Arizona last week I have some reservations about his ability to play in the majors.

He was clearly overmatched. It might be an adjustment issue, and maybe he just needs to get comfortable, but he clearly isn't ready right now.

Considering he is already 26 years old, I have some doubts despite his minor league performance and defensive flexibility.

Barfield was exceptional defensively, both in the IF and CF.

I think you make a good point about Gimenez. The game is just a little too fast for him right now. Not sure I would completely rule him out as a utility player in the future though. As I recall, much the same was said about another late bloomer, Casey Blake. I wonder if we see the same Barf as Dennis and I am not a big fan. As I said though, his performance is meaningless to the Indians' success. The ultimate DPR with options. :s_drinks
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:08 pm

artgold wrote:Gotta tell you though, after seeing Gimenez quite a bit in Arizona last week I have some reservations about his ability to play in the majors.

He was clearly overmatched. It might be an adjustment issue, and maybe he just needs to get comfortable, but he clearly isn't ready right now.

Considering he is already 26 years old, I have some doubts despite his minor league performance and defensive flexibility.

Barfield was exceptional defensively, both in the IF and CF.


Although 26, his baseball age is younger. Not sure if you recall that Gimenez lost a season plus due to a staph infection that nearly took his leg.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby stoike » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:30 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
dnosco wrote:Add to the fact that this club has serious question marks:

1. The ENTIRE starting rotation due to injury and previous poor performance and general lack of stuff from the bottom end of the rotation.
2. The last 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen.
3. Our DH.

Add our bench to that (Dellucci, Carroll, Barfield and Shoppach) and this club is positioning itself to have its worst record since 1992. Not saying it is going to happen but, given the clues so far this spring, it wouldn't be a huge upset if that happened.

I notice you left yourself an out but if you really believe what you are saying about the record, I could be persuaded to give you odds on that likelihood. But your points do have relevance in this case. I am sure you will be the first to give kudos to Shapiro and Wedge if they overcome this terrible lack of talent to win a few games! :s_rofl


Gotta admire one thing about Dennis "the sky is falling" Nosco; he always finds the clouds within the silver lining. His cup is beyond half empty, it IS empty. Gawd, aren't we blessed not to know him personally? Geez....
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby jellis » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:31 pm

stoike wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
dnosco wrote:Add to the fact that this club has serious question marks:

1. The ENTIRE starting rotation due to injury and previous poor performance and general lack of stuff from the bottom end of the rotation.
2. The last 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen.
3. Our DH.

Add our bench to that (Dellucci, Carroll, Barfield and Shoppach) and this club is positioning itself to have its worst record since 1992. Not saying it is going to happen but, given the clues so far this spring, it wouldn't be a huge upset if that happened.

I notice you left yourself an out but if you really believe what you are saying about the record, I could be persuaded to give you odds on that likelihood. But your points do have relevance in this case. I am sure you will be the first to give kudos to Shapiro and Wedge if they overcome this terrible lack of talent to win a few games! :s_rofl


Gotta admire one thing about Dennis "the sky is falling" Nosco; he always finds the clouds within the silver lining. His cup is beyond half empty, it IS empty. Gawd, aren't we blessed not to know him personally? Geez....


the cup is not empty to dennis to him there is a miniature black hole in in sucking out all hope and joy
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:34 pm

I don't really understand the problem Denny has with Barfield making this team.

Dennis has gone on the record bemoaning the Indians for paying Carroll $2m+ when he's a utility infielder and therefore provides zero win shares to the team. So, I fail to see how a player that will be utilised less than Carroll can in any way have a detrimental effect on the number of games this team wins.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby dnosco » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:18 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I don't really understand the problem Denny has with Barfield making this team.

Dennis has gone on the record bemoaning the Indians for paying Carroll $2m+ when he's a utility infielder and therefore provides zero win shares to the team. So, I fail to see how a player that will be utilised less than Carroll can in any way have a detrimental effect on the number of games this team wins.


At least by carrying Barfield Carroll's bloated salary looks more palatable. Only problem, however is, as I said, no team can afford to carry both Barfield and Carroll in their starting lineup at the same time.

Hey, if you add George Lombard and Tony Graffanito to the roster along with Barfield then Carroll could potentially move all the way up to 21st player on the roster! :s_sarcastic

As far as my 'predictions' they weren't that. They were a watchout. With Hafner a question mark, IMHO carrying a guy who can't hit over .200 in ST is ridiculous, no matter if he is the 25th player or not. Just the fact that he is worse than Carroll tells you that carrying him makes no sense. Carroll should be the 25th player on this roster, salary or not, which is another debate. The fact he has moved up to 23rd or 24th, depending on what you think the value of Vinnie Chulk or Zach Jackson will be, is not a good thing.

But, yeah, any negative prediction is treated this way so, have at it.

Regarding:
Gotta admire one thing about Dennis "the sky is falling" Nosco; he always finds the clouds within the silver lining. His cup is beyond half empty, it IS empty. Gawd, aren't we blessed not to know him personally? Geez....
the blessing is all mine! :s_biggrin
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby npc29 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:28 pm

At least Josh Barfield isn't in the Mike Rouse realm of hitters. No one's that bad.

I don't see the issue with Barfield making the team as the 25th man. He'll barely get used as a hitter, anyone who gets that spot would barely be used anyway. At least he has a use, speed.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:06 am

dnosco wrote:Add to the fact that this club has serious question marks:

1. The ENTIRE starting rotation due to injury and previous poor performance and general lack of stuff from the bottom end of the rotation.
2. The last 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen.
3. Our DH.

Add our bench to that (Dellucci, Carroll, Barfield and Shoppach) and this club is positioning itself to have its worst record since 1992. Not saying it is going to happen but, given the clues so far this spring, it wouldn't be a huge upset if that happened.


Or the best since the 90s.....

Name me a bullpen that doesn't have a question mark somewhere in it? You can't really. And almost all rotations have 3-4 guys at least that have been injured or had poor performances lately.

DH is a bit of a concern, but with Shoppach you have a security blanket of sorts.


Worst record since 1992? c'mon. Even last year without most of the rotation, no bullpen at all other than Lewis and Perez, and 2 of our 3 best hitters out we were .500. I can understand the concerns and thinking we could be in for another .500 season.....but you just went completely in the other direction.....and don't see how you can say it unless you're predicting nearly the entire rotation to hurt and half the lineup......



Also, Carroll had a .355 OBP last year......not many bench players put up those kind of numbers. He's one of the BEST bench guys on any team this year, and probably the clear best in the division. Making a bit too much money, but that has nothing to do with how he performs on the field and helps the team.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby TheWord » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:08 am

Why wouldn't he make this prediction?

If it hits on the very small percentage, he looks like a genius.

If it doesn't, he gets a pass because the Indians are winning and it's all good.

So goes the pessimistic thinking of Cleveland fans.
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Re: More cuts in spring training....

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:17 am

TheWord wrote:Why wouldn't he make this prediction?

If it hits on the very small percentage, he looks like a genius.

If it doesn't, he gets a pass because the Indians are winning and it's all good.

So goes the pessimistic thinking of Cleveland fans.


ha, yeah I guess that's true.
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