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Pavano?

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Pavano?

Postby dnosco » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:59 pm

Could we really be signing this guy?

IF so I think it will be a major league contract for low dollars with lots of incentives. I can't imagine we could get the guy on a minor league deal.

Minor league deal: good signing

Major league deal: bad signing as any sunk cost in this guy is too much. Considering $500,000 buys you a pretty good prospect in the draft, why waste good money on a guy like this?
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:05 pm

I like the signing (should it happen). My guess is $3-4M, which isn't bad really (incentives will be in there). Can throw 200 innings when healthy (which obviously hasn't been often the last 3 years).

It's a low-risk/high-reward type deal, IMO. Could turn into the next Millwood for us.....or not....

Gives us an extra arm too incase Reyes's elbow flares up again.

And what does $500K buying a prospect in the draft have to do with Pavano? That prospect at $500K wouldn't be anywhere close to helping the tribe in the next 3 years. Pavano could help this club a lot in 2009....or could not....it's a risk for sure...but one worth takign IMHO....
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:28 pm

Not sure I understand this unless they also plan to bring in ANOTHER starter in addition to Pavano. Can't believe he'd get more than an NRI deal, which for a vet is I believe around 900K give or take $100K if he is rostered.

I'd rather take a shot at a Freddy Garcia if we are going this route.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Jake Taylor » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:35 pm

It's insurance until Westbrook gets back, and if he's throwing as well as his stuff... all the better. There's a lot of question marks within our rotation, and if kids are excelling in AAA it just makes these guys expendable who might be pitching poorly.

Should be a low-risk signing.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:37 pm

Consigliere wrote:Not sure I understand this unless they also plan to bring in ANOTHER starter in addition to Pavano. Can't believe he'd get more than an NRI deal, which for a vet is I believe around 900K give or take $100K if he is rostered.

I'd rather take a shot at a Freddy Garcia if we are going this route.


Unless he's given $3-4M to be a NRI, don't see it happening. He finished the year healthy. Even Hampton got $2M guranteed.

Garcia is hurt now.....am a big fan of him still, but Pavano likely has the healthier arm at the moment.


Why would we add another starter on top of Pavano? Do you not want any of the 'other lefties' to start the year in Cleveland??
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:05 pm

The interesting thing here is who's roster spot is he gonna take......

Jackson?
Marte?
Mujica?
Aubrey?


(accidently posted this on the other thread, but was meant for the Pavano discussion)
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Timmyb » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:23 pm

I dont understand how you could favor Garcia over Pavano, Garcia has not pitched in over a year. Pavono at least pitched last year and did decent down the stretch. I think for a one year incentive type contract, this would be a good signing for the tribe
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Re: Pavano?

Postby dnosco » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I like the signing (should it happen). My guess is $3-4M, which isn't bad really (incentives will be in there). Can throw 200 innings when healthy (which obviously hasn't been often the last 3 years).

It's a low-risk/high-reward type deal, IMO. Could turn into the next Millwood for us.....or not....

Gives us an extra arm too incase Reyes's elbow flares up again.

And what does $500K buying a prospect in the draft have to do with Pavano? That prospect at $500K wouldn't be anywhere close to helping the tribe in the next 3 years. Pavano could help this club a lot in 2009....or could not....it's a risk for sure...but one worth takign IMHO....


$3-4 million is the problem I have. There are a number of guys I would rather take a shot at who wouldn't cost us that much more. Frankly, I would rather go with all young guys and take the gamble that we sort it out in ST. I mean, to put it in perspective, how many draft choices can you sign for $4 million? Answer: A number (2-3) first round talents as we all know first round talents fall to later in the draft.

Heck, I have significant heartburn giving Jamey Carroll $2.3 million. Pavano at $3 million or greater? Not interested. Pavano as a NRI? Where do I sign?

BTW, I don't know if the Millwood comparison is a good one. Millwood made 25 starts for Philly the year before we got him. Pavano has made 26 ML starts in the past FOUR YEARS.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:28 pm

um....Garcia DID pitch last year......

He started 3 games at the end of the year, and Pavano started 7.....

Garcia was pitching in winter ball too......til he had some issues with his arm and stopped....
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:45 pm

Pavano has never been a very good starting pitcher aside from his 03 playoffs and 04 gork season. Both he and Garcia are coming off injury, but at least Garcia has a track record of sustained success.

I'd just as much avoid all the reclammation projects and go with what we have within.....but oh well. I ain't gonna cry about it if we in fact do sign one.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:54 pm

I'be sort of okay with it if Pavano signs for $2M max. I also feel that if Shapiro wants to get a bargain, there are better options (like Garcia).
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:08 pm

Consigliere wrote:Pavano has never been a very good starting pitcher aside from his 03 playoffs and 04 gork season. Both he and Garcia are coming off injury, but at least Garcia has a track record of sustained success.

I'd just as much avoid all the reclammation projects and go with what we have within.....but oh well. I ain't gonna cry about it if we in fact do sign one.


Neither has done anything in the last 2 years......and Garcia never really had much 'sustained' success. 04-05 he did put back-to-back 200 innings & sub 4 ERA seasons....but that's it basically. Did win 17 games in 06 but had a 4.53 ERA....

I have a feeling the arm issue Garcia had in winter ball has scared a lot of teams.......who knows how serious it was for sure.....I was really pulling for us to sign The Chief earlier this offseason...but after hearing about the issues he's having, sounds like it is best to stay away from him this winter...

So other than the injured (and likely Still injuried Garcia).....there really wasn't another guy we could afford to get other than Pavano.....


He's definately far from anyone's ideal signing.....but for the money we have, not too shabby....
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Re: Pavano?

Postby npc29 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:13 pm

Hermie13 wrote:The interesting thing here is who's roster spot is he gonna take......

Jackson?
Marte?
Mujica?
Aubrey?


(accidently posted this on the other thread, but was meant for the Pavano discussion)


Please Mujica please please please please....

done deal according to Castrovince..

http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives ... avano.html

if it's for more than 2 million, I'll pull my hair out.. Like Tony, I'd rather spend the cash on Freddy Garcia if we have it and are going to do it.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby jellis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:14 pm

ok so pavano who failed so badly as a pitcher montreal more or less let him go he went and had one really good year and then got hurt, I dont see the point in wasting 2 mil. Keep it and sign a stud who falls to you at pick 15 and another stud in round 2 and let a young kid pitch. I mean at this point laffey isnt a rookie anymore and neither is sowers, lets see if they can cut ii in the majors neither have anything to prove in AAA and I for one dont see pavano as an imporvement at all
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Re: Pavano?

Postby jellis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:14 pm

UPDATE (3:10 p.m. ET): 1B Michael Aubrey was designated for assignment to clear Pavano's spot. No major surprise there.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby jellis » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:15 pm

glad aubrey is gone he was only going to steal a legit specs AB's in AAA
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:25 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Pavano has never been a very good starting pitcher aside from his 03 playoffs and 04 gork season. Both he and Garcia are coming off injury, but at least Garcia has a track record of sustained success.

I'd just as much avoid all the reclammation projects and go with what we have within.....but oh well. I ain't gonna cry about it if we in fact do sign one.


Neither has done anything in the last 2 years......and Garcia never really had much 'sustained' success. 04-05 he did put back-to-back 200 innings & sub 4 ERA seasons....but that's it basically. Did win 17 games in 06 but had a 4.53 ERA....

I have a feeling the arm issue Garcia had in winter ball has scared a lot of teams.......who knows how serious it was for sure.....I was really pulling for us to sign The Chief earlier this offseason...but after hearing about the issues he's having, sounds like it is best to stay away from him this winter...

So other than the injured (and likely Still injuried Garcia).....there really wasn't another guy we could afford to get other than Pavano.....


He's definately far from anyone's ideal signing.....but for the money we have, not too shabby....


In 7 of his first 8 years he pitched 200+ inning per season with an average FIP around 4, solid strikeout and BB rates, 114 ERA+ and he's a good postseason pitcher. I'd say that's sustained success.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby npc29 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:32 pm

jellis wrote:UPDATE (3:10 p.m. ET): 1B Michael Aubrey was designated for assignment to clear Pavano's spot. No major surprise there.


Damnit so close.... Stupid Mujica...
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Re: Pavano?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:34 pm

jellis wrote:glad aubrey is gone he was only going to steal a legit specs AB's in AAA


Yeah that definitely clears some room for Stephen Head to be there and play regularly. Is the Aubrey move a clean drop or will we try to get something out of him?
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:36 pm

jellis wrote:glad aubrey is gone he was only going to steal a legit specs AB's in AAA


Well, if he goes unclaimed/untraded, he ain't gone yet as the Indians can then assign him to the minors.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:36 pm

I'm surprised by this. The Indians need somebody to step into a regular spot in the rotation right away, not somebody that needs to build up arm strength. :s_dunno

I was hoping they might offer a 1-year deal to Sheets.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:39 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I'm surprised by this. The Indians need somebody to step into a regular spot in the rotation right away, not somebody that needs to build up arm strength. :s_dunno

I was hoping they might offer a 1-year deal to Sheets.



Well Pavano did make 7 starts and finished the year healthy, I imagine they have gone through a similar evaluation of Pavano as they did with Wood. The question behind Pavano is can he make a better impact than one of our young lefties?
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:40 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I'm surprised by this. The Indians need somebody to step into a regular spot in the rotation right away, not somebody that needs to build up arm strength. :s_dunno

I was hoping they might offer a 1-year deal to Sheets.


Why would Sheets take that? and how are the Indians going to pay him?
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:42 pm

I need to wait to hear what they say about this signing. Is this just a depth signing, or are they seriously considering him for the #3/#4 spot? Gotta see the contract too before I have an opinion on this.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:43 pm

Consigliere wrote:I need to wait to hear what they say about this signing. Is this just a depth signing, or are they seriously considering him for the #3/#4 spot? Gotta see the contract too before I have an opinion on this.



Well I gotta think this is Shapiro's legit deal for a SP since it is on a major league deal.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:44 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3813706

Crasnick reports the same and Rotoworld says the deal will officially be announced later this afternoon.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:45 pm

JP_Frost wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3813706

Crasnick reports the same and Rotoworld says the deal will officially be announced later this afternoon.


Indians have already announced it and made it official 15 mins ago.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:49 pm

JP_Frost wrote:In 7 of his first 8 years he pitched 200+ inning per season with an average FIP around 4, solid strikeout and BB rates, 114 ERA+ and he's a good postseason pitcher. I'd say that's sustained success.


ERA was still up over 4 for many of those years (only 3 were under and only once under 3.8). He's was good, but nothing great. Depends on how loosely you're gonna define success......

Again, I would have loved to have gotten him.....but he doesn't sound healthy at all. Pavano hasn't had a setback......probably the key here....
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:52 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I'm surprised by this. The Indians need somebody to step into a regular spot in the rotation right away, not somebody that needs to build up arm strength. :s_dunno

I was hoping they might offer a 1-year deal to Sheets.


Yeah.....Sheets already has 2year offers on the table....a 1yr was never gonna happen. I was hoping for a 2yr/$30M deal...but after we got Wood it put a damper on that idea.



Will be interesting to see if someone grabs Aubrey or he sticks with the Tribe now......

If he gets taken, would open up more at-bats for both Gimenez and Toregas to be in the lineup at the same time (one DHing, the other catching).......
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Re: Pavano?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:55 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:I'm surprised by this. The Indians need somebody to step into a regular spot in the rotation right away, not somebody that needs to build up arm strength. :s_dunno

I was hoping they might offer a 1-year deal to Sheets.


Yeah.....Sheets already has 2year offers on the table....a 1yr was never gonna happen. I was hoping for a 2yr/$30M deal...but after we got Wood it put a damper on that idea.



Will be interesting to see if someone grabs Aubrey or he sticks with the Tribe now......

If he gets taken, would open up more at-bats for both Gimenez and Toregas to be in the lineup at the same time (one DHing, the other catching).......



And Stephen Head a chance to play more often at AAA instead of a bench guy or having to spend more time in AA.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:56 pm

Consigliere wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3813706

Crasnick reports the same and Rotoworld says the deal will officially be announced later this afternoon.


Indians have already announced it and made it official 15 mins ago.


but the financial terms weren't disclosed yet right?

EDIT: Nevermind

"UPDATE No. 3 (3:41 p.m.): Got the terms. Pavano is guaranteed $1.5 million for '09, with the chance to make another $5.3 million in performance-based incentives. About to jump on a conference call with Mark Shapiro. Look for the full story on Indians.com in a little bit."
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Re: Pavano?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:10 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3813706

Crasnick reports the same and Rotoworld says the deal will officially be announced later this afternoon.


Indians have already announced it and made it official 15 mins ago.


but the financial terms weren't disclosed yet right?

EDIT: Nevermind

"UPDATE No. 3 (3:41 p.m.): Got the terms. Pavano is guaranteed $1.5 million for '09, with the chance to make another $5.3 million in performance-based incentives. About to jump on a conference call with Mark Shapiro. Look for the full story on Indians.com in a little bit."


They must be really confident he cant meet those incentives, if they were they would be going over budget one would think.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:27 pm

according to the Denver Post (http://blogs.denverpost.com/rockies/2009/01/06/indians-land-pavano-for-15-million-incentive-laden-deal/)

"Pavano’s incentives begin kicking in at 18 starts."
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Re: Pavano?

Postby toledobuck » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:48 pm

I just am not a fan of this move at all. I do not have any confidence in Pavano being a consistent and effective SP at the major league level anymore. I would actually rather them do nothing and save that cash for signing draft picks instead of risk losing Aubrey (not a major loss but...). If Shap has no cash to pursue a deal for the likes of Garland and / or Sheets, he needed to get more creative on the trade front to obtain a more stable and effective #3/4 starter. Starting pitching for this team is still a huge question mark that needs addressed this offseason. How can we feel comfortable with 3 starters coming out of this group of guys - Reyes, Sowers, Laffey, Lewis, Pavano, Huff, Jackson. Carmona has still got question marks himself. The Tribe desperately needs to get a decent veteran arm that can help stabilize the rotation instead of relying on mediocre prospects or injury riddled reclamation projects.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby npc29 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:49 pm

There is no way that those incentives are achievable unless he not only pitches in a lot of games, but pitches very well. That's an insane amount of potential money. I'm sure he'll make some of it if he's healthy, but a lot of that has to be tied to performance, not just starts..
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Re: Pavano?

Postby cardiackidz » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:44 pm

is this jason johnson part 2?
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:46 pm

toledobuck wrote:I just am not a fan of this move at all. I do not have any confidence in Pavano being a consistent and effective SP at the major league level anymore. I would actually rather them do nothing and save that cash for signing draft picks instead of risk losing Aubrey (not a major loss but...). If Shap has no cash to pursue a deal for the likes of Garland and / or Sheets, he needed to get more creative on the trade front to obtain a more stable and effective #3/4 starter. Starting pitching for this team is still a huge question mark that needs addressed this offseason. How can we feel comfortable with 3 starters coming out of this group of guys - Reyes, Sowers, Laffey, Lewis, Pavano, Huff, Jackson. Carmona has still got question marks himself. The Tribe desperately needs to get a decent veteran arm that can help stabilize the rotation instead of relying on mediocre prospects or injury riddled reclamation projects.


what makes you think Shapiro didn't explore the trade market for a middle of the rotation pitcher? Besides, name me one team who'd be willing to trade away an affordable #3/#4 guy for a package centered around Shoppach? Also, there's no way we can tell if this signing has any effects on the draft. My guess is that it doesn't.

npc29 wrote:There is no way that those incentives are achievable unless he not only pitches in a lot of games, but pitches very well. That's an insane amount of potential money. I'm sure he'll make some of it if he's healthy, but a lot of that has to be tied to performance, not just starts..


here are the details concerning the incentives (per Castroturf):

"If you're incredibly curious about this contract, it breaks down as follows, according to a Major League source. Pavano gets $100,000 each for reaching 18, 20 and 22 starts, $200,000 each for reaching 24, 26 and 28 starts, $250,000 for 30 starts, $300,000 for 32 starts, $350,000 each for 33 and 34 starts and $400,000 for 35 starts.

He gets $100,000 each for reaching 130, 140 and 150 innings pitched, $150,000 each for 160 and 170 innings, $200,000 for 180, $250,000 for 190, $250,000 for 200, $300,000 for 215, $400,000 for 225 and $500,000 for 235.

So, basically, a very tolerable level of financial risk with this contract, if you ask me. If Pavano gets hurt or gets shelled, the Indians can cut bait midseason and stomach the $1.5 million investment."


That seems very fair to me. IF Pavano were to reach all of those thresholds -- he'd be worth the extra $5.3M. And there's no way he'd be able to reach them if he weren't effective performance wise.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby MickS » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:52 pm

If Pavano earns those incentives, Shapiro will gleefully write the check.

I think there's a decent chance that Aubrey clears waivers. But even if he does I'm not sure what we do with him anyway. If he doesn't, oh well.

I'm not expecting much out of this but for chump change, why not? If Pavano is pitching well when Westbrook is ready then we have some serious depth to work with at the trade deadline.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby cardiackidz » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:54 pm

i dont think mike clears waiver because hes a good player.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby MickS » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:01 pm

cardiackidz wrote:i dont think mike clears waiver because hes a good player.


I'll bet you didn't think Brown would go undrafted in the Rule 5 either. Either way, I won't lose any sleep over it.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:08 pm

I have to wonder if Aubrey will get picked up on waivers or if the Tribe will find a trade partner.

Assuming Aubrey is gonzo, this helps to solidify Jordan Brown's and Stephen Head's roles/spots in Cbus and helps ensure the return of Garko to Cleveland.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby tphat09 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:13 pm

I really like this signing. The Indians do have to be frugal but 1.5 million dollars is not too much to risk for a guy who could be a solid #3. They had to make a move with only one sure starter and two who have had continued success. The 1.5 is a small amount to risk for someone who could plug a major hole. Also this deal gives the team the power to drop him if his production suffers. The 5.3 he could get paid... that really isnt much for a pitcher that eats that many quality innings.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:16 pm

What I don't like about this....is what is the sporking point of this signing?

Someone make a case and tell me what Carl Pavano brings that Tomo Ohka doesn't. I see absolutely no difference, and I may actually believe you if you told me Ohka was better!

Gee, I feel a lot better about the rotation going into the season with Pavano in it that I do about Laffey in it. If Laffey is healthy, he is no worse than Pavano and I think better anyway. And I'd rather have Lewis or Huff in there as well. Pavano over Sowers and Jackson, yes, ok, I can understand it if that was what was slotting into #4 and #5...but we also have Lewis, Huff and Laffey who are all superior pitchers.

Just a senseless move if you ask me. And it is not the money....it is the fact they actually feel the rotation is more reliable and better with Pavano in it than one of the other guys they already have. Carl Freeaking Pavano!
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Re: Pavano?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:29 pm

Consigliere wrote:What I don't like about this....is what is the sporking point of this signing?

Someone make a case and tell me what Carl Pavano brings that Tomo Ohka doesn't. I see absolutely no difference, and I may actually believe you if you told me Ohka was better!

Gee, I feel a lot better about the rotation going into the season with Pavano in it that I do about Laffey in it. If Laffey is healthy, he is no worse than Pavano and I think better anyway. And I'd rather have Lewis or Huff in there as well. Pavano over Sowers and Jackson, yes, ok, I can understand it if that was what was slotting into #4 and #5...but we also have Lewis, Huff and Laffey who are all superior pitchers.

Just a senseless move if you ask me. And it is not the money....it is the fact they actually feel the rotation is more reliable and better with Pavano in it than one of the other guys they already have. Carl Freeaking Pavano!


I agree with you, but I wouldn't call it senseless. Pavano still has some upside and if he can regain some of his past ability, he's a solid pitcher. I'd much rather have Pavano falter and Laffey taking his place, then Laffey getting shelled and ... well nobody taking his place. It adds depth and gives Laffey, and especially Huff, some time to work on things in AAA. The difference between Ohka and Pavano is stuff I guess since their career lines aren't that different.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:12 pm

dnosco wrote:Could we really be signing this guy?

IF so I think it will be a major league contract for low dollars with lots of incentives. I can't imagine we could get the guy on a minor league deal.

Minor league deal: good signing

Major league deal: bad signing as any sunk cost in this guy is too much. Considering $500,000 buys you a pretty good prospect in the draft, why waste good money on a guy like this?


Hey, we agree on something. Looks to me like they are willing to invest $1.5 million to see if they can make a mountain out of a molehill. I agree they could use the money more wisely but who knows. pavano didn't look any better healthy last year when I watched him pitch. Maybe they know something about Laffey and/or Reyes healthwise that would make some sense of this. :s_drinks
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Re: Pavano?

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:23 pm

Consigliere wrote:What I don't like about this....is what is the sporking point of this signing?

Someone make a case and tell me what Carl Pavano brings that Tomo Ohka doesn't. I see absolutely no difference, and I may actually believe you if you told me Ohka was better!

Gee, I feel a lot better about the rotation going into the season with Pavano in it that I do about Laffey in it. If Laffey is healthy, he is no worse than Pavano and I think better anyway. And I'd rather have Lewis or Huff in there as well. Pavano over Sowers and Jackson, yes, ok, I can understand it if that was what was slotting into #4 and #5...but we also have Lewis, Huff and Laffey who are all superior pitchers.

Just a senseless move if you ask me. And it is not the money....it is the fact they actually feel the rotation is more reliable and better with Pavano in it than one of the other guys they already have. Carl Freeaking Pavano!


Me 2!!! Cheap investment but why? As I mentioned above to Dennis, the only think I can think of is the possibility that Laffey and/or Reyes is iffy for opening day. Any way you can check because I am out of gas for other ideas. :s_scratchhead
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Re: Pavano?

Postby cardiackidz » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:29 pm

tony this pavano move is what shapiro has been doing for years with this team. he just doesnt trust his farm system and never will. this very well could be jason johnson part 2.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:10 pm

We might not be thrilled with the move, but in the same idea as the DeRosa trade or the Franklin deal, we can't scream about the FO sitting around and not doing anything.

It's clear they are trying (trying our patience in many cases) but they are at least making some moves.
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Re: Pavano?

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:55 am

JP_Frost wrote:
Consigliere wrote:What I don't like about this....is what is the sporking point of this signing?

Someone make a case and tell me what Carl Pavano brings that Tomo Ohka doesn't. I see absolutely no difference, and I may actually believe you if you told me Ohka was better!

Gee, I feel a lot better about the rotation going into the season with Pavano in it that I do about Laffey in it. If Laffey is healthy, he is no worse than Pavano and I think better anyway. And I'd rather have Lewis or Huff in there as well. Pavano over Sowers and Jackson, yes, ok, I can understand it if that was what was slotting into #4 and #5...but we also have Lewis, Huff and Laffey who are all superior pitchers.

Just a senseless move if you ask me. And it is not the money....it is the fact they actually feel the rotation is more reliable and better with Pavano in it than one of the other guys they already have. Carl Freeaking Pavano!


I agree with you, but I wouldn't call it senseless. Pavano still has some upside and if he can regain some of his past ability, he's a solid pitcher. I'd much rather have Pavano falter and Laffey taking his place, then Laffey getting shelled and ... well nobody taking his place. It adds depth and gives Laffey, and especially Huff, some time to work on things in AAA. The difference between Ohka and Pavano is stuff I guess since their career lines aren't that different.


Everyone keeps bringing up how we can just cut the guy. Yeah, I understand that......but if they cut him it means he was awful for 8-12 starts. That is 8-12 starts I would rather see go to one of Laffey-Huff-Lewis, and we arguably have a chance for a few more wins in those starts with them over Pavano.

Just senseless. It is not the money.....it is the fact they are going to throw this guy out there for at least 8-12 starts and test run him to see what he can do.....when they already had very capable arms in tow. He has limited upside. He has been hurt the last four years and has only been good for one and a half seasons in his career and was average to below average at best the rest.

And for God sake's, what is the difference between Pavano and Ohka? If we wanted a vet guy for the staff, why not just consider Ohka for the job in spring? His career is as good as Pavano.

I rarely get bent out of shape about a move, but when I read this today I rolled my eyes and laughed out loud.....good Lord...:

The following year, Pavano went a career-best 18-8 with a 3.00 ERA in 31 starts, setting up his free-agent deal with the Yankees.

"He's physically poised to have a season like that," Shapiro said, referring to '04, "and that's a guy who could have a big role in our starting rotation."


:s_cry
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Re: Pavano?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:13 am

Huff is better than Pavano?? Come on now, I get that you're upset about the deal, but there is NO WAY you can say that a guy that hasn't pitched above AAA is better than a guy that has had great success at the ML.

Saying that you 'THINK' Huff will become better this year is one thing, but until he proves he can get a ML hitter out, he's not better.


And what's the difference between Ohka and Pavano??? Really? Ohka has NEVER thrown 200 innings in any season at any level. He did have a nice 2 year run of 190 innings 02-03....but really hasn't done much since (decent 05 season). He's also NEVER pitched in the playoffs.....and didn't throw a single pitch in the MLs last year.....unlike Pavano.

Pavano is definately better. You can argue that he's too injury prone and wasn't needed (though I disagree on the latter).....but Ohka is a AAA filler and nothing more really. Pavano has a shot at being a legit #3 (and you laughing at Shapiro for basically agreeing with that doesn't change it). GREAT signing that could turn out to the be the difference between going deep in the playoffs and going home early.
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