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What now?

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What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:43 pm

So the Tribe has address their bullpen issues and the hole on the infield......so what's next? Anything or are they done?


Spent a lot of money (ha, for the Indians at least)......so not much left to do much with. Could use an upgrade to the rotation (though not a 'huge' need). I'd still like a better LF option than Francisco (but that's getting a bit greedy).


Do you guys think they're done or will still make a move? Is Shoppach gonna be on the team come April? Will Shapiro pull off his usually move and sign Freddy Garcia coming off injury? With Boston getting Penny will they be more willing to move Masterson perhaps?
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Re: What now?

Postby Jake Taylor » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:16 pm

I have to think a starter is still on the way. I'm thinking Shapiro is hoping for the market to break down after Lowe gets his contract, but as of now Lowe's sure holding out for a huge amount.

Sheets would be an okay option, but I think he'd still command quite a bit... same with Garland.

Freddy Garcia could be an option, like you said, and I actually would think it'd be a pretty decent move. With the amount of starters we have on the brink, we'd be okay if he did break down or if Westbrook came back strong at mid-season.
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Re: What now?

Postby carnegie44115 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:24 pm

I don't think we will be doing much more in FA, other than NRI signings. Now maybe we can swing a deal for a SP if we can move some salary, which means moving one of Kobi or Betancourt and Shoppach as the center of it. Also Dellucci, but it wont happen I am sure. If no other salary moves can be made, I think there will be a retread of some type signed to compete for a rotation spot, not that I am for it, but I think Shap, and especially Wedge will want a veteran in the mix.
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Re: What now?

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:41 pm

Yeah, they are done except for maybe getting a starter. Question is, with payroll now already at about $81-82M for the 25-man roster, there is not much else they can afford except getting someone cheap on a 1 year deal or if they can dump a guy like Dellucci onto someone.

Lots of interesting starters out there still, most of which I would probably pass on though as I like our internal options better. But, I do like Garland, Oliver Perez, Freddy Garcia, Braden Looper, and Randy Wolf....question is can they sign one of them to a 1-year deal for under $3-5M?
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Re: What now?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:22 am

Then there's the Kelly Shoppach question. He can go to arbitration, although the Indians don't do that. But either he get's a bigger contract, or he gets an arbitration award. Either way, the payroll gets higher.

I would still call Boston about Shoppach for Buchholz. We get a young starter, & keep the payroll down. Sox get a catcher to play with Bard, and say goodbye to Varitek.
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Re: What now?

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:59 am

you could call Boston ... and Boston would say no.
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Re: What now?

Postby MickS » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:51 am

I think Shapiro is content to let the market develop. Of the free agents I probably like Perez and Sheets (with the obvious reservations about his health) the best but I don't see either being especially affordable. Trade-wise, there's little available early in the process that trumps what we already have. I like J. Sanchez's upside but I don't think we match up well with the Giants. I've always liked J. Johnson but I can't really envision a Marlins deal either. If we're patient, luck could swing our way. By the end of spring training we should know if the V-Mart of old is back and it's safe to deal Shoppach. Who kows, maybe Posada goes down and/or Boston becomes desperate (with or without Varitek) and Hughes or Buchholtz lands in our lap. Or, best case scenario, Carmona revives and three of Laffey, Sowers, S. Lewis, Jackson, Huff, Reyes and Miller are lighting it up. Patience, patience, patience.
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Re: What now?

Postby TheWord » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:16 pm

Boston tried to trade Bucholz for Hanley Ramirez, I doubt they would come all the way down to trade him for Kelly Shoppach.
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Re: What now?

Postby MickS » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:53 pm

TheWord wrote:Boston tried to trade Bucholz for Hanley Ramirez, I doubt they would come all the way down to trade him for Kelly Shoppach.


It was hardly Buchholtz straight up for Ramirez. It was Bucholtz plus. The Red Sox have at least as many question marks as we have. Ortiz. Drew. Lowell. Even Beckett poses potential issues. If the catcher spot becoems a big issue I guarantee you that Epstien will make a move. I doubt they would abandon the season by refusing to deal Buchholtz if they thought adding another important bat and a catcher all in one move would make a difference. Buchholtz for all his promise is still mainly a prospect. Like I said let's be patient and let them come to us. It might not happen until weeks into the season when BOS is staring up at the Yanks and Rays in the standings but it's certainly within the realm of possibilites.

From Gammons Blog:

Ten days after the GM meetings, Epstein called Marlins GM Larry Beinfest and asked him if he were interested in trading Hanley Ramirez for a package including Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz. "No," replied Beinfest. End of discussion. "The entire conversation," says one club official, "lasted all of 20 seconds, a week before Thanksgiving."

Note that the offer was a "PACKAGE" including but not limited to Ellsbury and Buchholtz. You are over-valuing Buchholtz and under-valuing Shoppach.
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Re: What now?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:45 pm

Consigliere wrote:Yeah, they are done except for maybe getting a starter. Question is, with payroll now already at about $81-82M for the 25-man roster, there is not much else they can afford except getting someone cheap on a 1 year deal or if they can dump a guy like Dellucci onto someone.

Lots of interesting starters out there still, most of which I would probably pass on though as I like our internal options better. But, I do like Garland, Oliver Perez, Freddy Garcia, Braden Looper, and Randy Wolf....question is can they sign one of them to a 1-year deal for under $3-5M?


I like these guys to some extent but the only one who has much chance to meet your criteria is Wolf. I think your original thoughts on this #3 starter are correct. It will have to come from a trade in order to clear payroll. I do not believe Koba or Dellucci are tradeable commodities. I am left with the conclusion that Shoppach and Betancourt have to be included to make the trade work financially. You may see an $85+ million payroll this year but I do not.

I have a suggestion that may not be immediate but may be worth pursuing. The Padres have a likely new owner who can lift the restrictions instituted by Moorer. It appears they will keep Peavy. But what about Chris Young. If we add one of the lefties to the package, there might be some interest out here. I am not sure Betancourt fits the Padre mold but Shoppach and a young starter would. We could give up one of the flyball LHs who could be successful in Petco. Then we could worry about keeping the big guy healthy. We might be overpaying but I think I could live with it to stay in budget. :s_smile
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Re: What now?

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:15 pm

I would not be opposed to a deal like that, but worried about youngs health guy has never stayed healthy the past few years
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Re: What now?

Postby cardiackidz » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:42 am

hasnt peter gammons articles just gotten horrible? i wonder what goes through theo epsteins head when he looks down and sees gammons on his knees every day.
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Re: What now?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:00 pm

jellis wrote:I would not be opposed to a deal like that, but worried about youngs health guy has never stayed healthy the past few years


That's the $64 question. His mechanics are pretty solid but that is a big body to keep everything organized. In the San Diego paper, Moorad indicated that he thought the team should be rebuilt through the draft and upgrade the organization through trades. In effect, he says that he wants to use the model popularized by the small market franchises like Cleveland, et al. For those who are not familiar with the Padre system, it is not nearly as good either at the top or depth as the tribe's. He is going to have to import young players to get the ball rolling. Probably just a fantasy but I think it will take a move like this if Cleveland has a realistic chance to upgrade its SP. :s_scratchhead
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Re: What now?

Postby jellis » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:57 pm

I agree just dont see any arms that have been made available that could help this team out at this point reyes might be the 3 heading into camp
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Re: What now?

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:37 am

Looks like with the Indians tapped out, that the starters we have we will have to roll with unless someone slips through the cracks for $2-4M. Lots of nuggets here from Pluto, as well as a plug here for this site!

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... wns_2.html

Ten things about the Tribe trade...

1. I wish the Indians were plugging Mark DeRosa into second base, moving Jhonny Peralta to third with Asdrubal Cabrera taking over at short. But the Indians insist DeRosa is much better at third base, and he is rated above average at the position. The Indians didn't say it, but he is supposed to have more range at third than Casey Blake or Andy Marte.

2. At second base, DeRosa is rated average at best. Cabrera is Gold Glove caliber at second. They think they can go another year with Peralta at short, but he will eventually be moved to third base.

3. Not much has been said about DeRosa as an outfielder, but he has an above average right-field arm. If Shin Soo Choo or Ben Francisco falter or are injured, DeRosa is an alternative. If there is an injury in the middle infield, DeRosa can take over at second base.

4. DeRosa will be 34 in February. He has one year left at $5.5 million, so he can be one-year rental. It's still mind-boggling that 35-year-old Casey Blake received a 3-year, $17 million deal from the Dodgers. Great for Good Guy Casey, but in this tight market, it's an amazing blessing. By way of comparison, Blake batted .274 (.808 OPS) with 21 HR and 81 RBI for the Tribe and Dodgers last season. DeRosa was at .285 (.857 OPS) 21 HR, 87 RBI for the Cubs.

5. Playing at Wrigley Field (and Texas before that) did help DeRosa. Over the last three years, he hit .304 (.844 OPS) at home compared to .278 (.796 OPS) on the road. He actually had more HR away (23) than at home (21) with only three more at bats on the road. He is a solid player. In those last three years, the right-handed batter hit .283 vs. righties, .312 vs. lefties. It was .300 before the All-Star break, .281 after. Based on the last three years, DeRosa's typical season would be .291 with 15 HR and 81 RBI.

6. The Indians had to decide if they should wait for a free-agent starter to become available on a one-year deal (much like Kevin Millwood in 2005) right before spring training, or spend what is left on their budget for DeRosa. They could not afford to do both. They decided to go for DeRosa, because if they passed, they could end up with nothing. Also, the Orioles continue to say they had no interest in trading Brian Roberts, so the Indians went after DeRosa -- and beat out the Twins, who also wanted him.

7. Last season, DeRosa played 95 games (8 errors) at second, 38 in right field, 27 in left field and 22 at third base with two errors. Obviously, adding DeRosa puts Andy Marte and Josh Barfield in limbo, as Jamey Carroll is the utility infielder. It allows them to start future second baseman Luis Valbuena at Class AAA Columbus, rather than possibly rush him to the majors if Barfield had a poor spring.

8. Kerry Wood gave DeRosa a huge endorsement, and the Indians like that DeRosa gives them a No. 2 hitter they've lacked since Omar Vizquel and Coco Crisp in 2005. Last year, they had several in that spot, including Cabrera, Carroll and Dave Dellucci. Over the last three years, DeRosa has a .368 on-base percentage, putting him in the top 25 percent among all players -- and that's an asset at the top of the lineup. Why did DeRosa play second when third is his best position? Because the Cubs have Aramis Ramirez (.289, 27 HR, 111 RBI) at third.

9. I like Jeff Stevens and believe he will be effective in the majors as a reliever. He throws in the 93 mph range and was 5-4 with a 3.24 ERA and 81 strikeouts in only 58 1/3 innings between Class AAA Buffalo and Class AA Akron last season. Opposing batters hit only .185. The other two pitchers (Chris Archer and Jon Gaub) were at the Class A level. Maybe they will pitch in the big leagues eventually, but it won't be soon. For more information on them, check Tony Lastoria's excellent farm system blog at www.indiansprospectsinsider.com

10. I like the deal because it shows the Indians are playing for 2009, as does the signing of Wood and the deals for Joe Smith and, to a lesser extent, Luis Valbuena. The Indians added all those players and the only big leaguer lost in trades was Franklin Gutierrez.
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Re: What now?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:52 am

Consigliere wrote:Looks like with the Indians tapped out, that the starters we have we will have to roll with unless someone slips through the cracks for $2-4M. Lots of nuggets here from Pluto, as well as a plug here for this site!

Tony, Terry seems to be a big fan of the site. Why not have him on Smoke Signals sometime?

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... wns_2.html

Ten things about the Tribe trade...

1. I wish the Indians were plugging Mark DeRosa into second base, moving Jhonny Peralta to third with Asdrubal Cabrera taking over at short. But the Indians insist DeRosa is much better at third base, and he is rated above average at the position. The Indians didn't say it, but he is supposed to have more range at third than Casey Blake or Andy Marte.

2. At second base, DeRosa is rated average at best. Cabrera is Gold Glove caliber at second. They think they can go another year with Peralta at short, but he will eventually be moved to third base.

3. Not much has been said about DeRosa as an outfielder, but he has an above average right-field arm. If Shin Soo Choo or Ben Francisco falter or are injured, DeRosa is an alternative. If there is an injury in the middle infield, DeRosa can take over at second base.

4. DeRosa will be 34 in February. He has one year left at $5.5 million, so he can be one-year rental. It's still mind-boggling that 35-year-old Casey Blake received a 3-year, $17 million deal from the Dodgers. Great for Good Guy Casey, but in this tight market, it's an amazing blessing. By way of comparison, Blake batted .274 (.808 OPS) with 21 HR and 81 RBI for the Tribe and Dodgers last season. DeRosa was at .285 (.857 OPS) 21 HR, 87 RBI for the Cubs.

5. Playing at Wrigley Field (and Texas before that) did help DeRosa. Over the last three years, he hit .304 (.844 OPS) at home compared to .278 (.796 OPS) on the road. He actually had more HR away (23) than at home (21) with only three more at bats on the road. He is a solid player. In those last three years, the right-handed batter hit .283 vs. righties, .312 vs. lefties. It was .300 before the All-Star break, .281 after. Based on the last three years, DeRosa's typical season would be .291 with 15 HR and 81 RBI.

6. The Indians had to decide if they should wait for a free-agent starter to become available on a one-year deal (much like Kevin Millwood in 2005) right before spring training, or spend what is left on their budget for DeRosa. They could not afford to do both. They decided to go for DeRosa, because if they passed, they could end up with nothing. Also, the Orioles continue to say they had no interest in trading Brian Roberts, so the Indians went after DeRosa -- and beat out the Twins, who also wanted him.

7. Last season, DeRosa played 95 games (8 errors) at second, 38 in right field, 27 in left field and 22 at third base with two errors. Obviously, adding DeRosa puts Andy Marte and Josh Barfield in limbo, as Jamey Carroll is the utility infielder. It allows them to start future second baseman Luis Valbuena at Class AAA Columbus, rather than possibly rush him to the majors if Barfield had a poor spring.

8. Kerry Wood gave DeRosa a huge endorsement, and the Indians like that DeRosa gives them a No. 2 hitter they've lacked since Omar Vizquel and Coco Crisp in 2005. Last year, they had several in that spot, including Cabrera, Carroll and Dave Dellucci. Over the last three years, DeRosa has a .368 on-base percentage, putting him in the top 25 percent among all players -- and that's an asset at the top of the lineup. Why did DeRosa play second when third is his best position? Because the Cubs have Aramis Ramirez (.289, 27 HR, 111 RBI) at third.

9. I like Jeff Stevens and believe he will be effective in the majors as a reliever. He throws in the 93 mph range and was 5-4 with a 3.24 ERA and 81 strikeouts in only 58 1/3 innings between Class AAA Buffalo and Class AA Akron last season. Opposing batters hit only .185. The other two pitchers (Chris Archer and Jon Gaub) were at the Class A level. Maybe they will pitch in the big leagues eventually, but it won't be soon. For more information on them, check Tony Lastoria's excellent farm system blog at http://www.indiansprospectsinsider.com

10. I like the deal because it shows the Indians are playing for 2009, as does the signing of Wood and the deals for Joe Smith and, to a lesser extent, Luis Valbuena. The Indians added all those players and the only big leaguer lost in trades was Franklin Gutierrez.
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Re: What now?

Postby TheWord » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:16 am

My question is, are we really going to play Valbuena at SS in Columbus?

Having Barfield and Valbuena at Columbus seems to be a slight problem.
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Re: What now?

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:20 am

TheWord wrote:My question is, are we really going to play Valbuena at SS in Columbus?

Having Barfield and Valbuena at Columbus seems to be a slight problem.


No, Valbuena will be the reg 2B in Columbus. Barfield I think is gone by the end of spring training in some sort of trade. I don't see him going to Columbus, so unless he wins the final bench spot over Marte or someone else, he's gone I think.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:22 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I like these guys to some extent but the only one who has much chance to meet your criteria is Wolf. I think your original thoughts on this #3 starter are correct. It will have to come from a trade in order to clear payroll. I do not believe Koba or Dellucci are tradeable commodities. I am left with the conclusion that Shoppach and Betancourt have to be included to make the trade work financially. You may see an $85+ million payroll this year but I do not.

I have a suggestion that may not be immediate but may be worth pursuing. The Padres have a likely new owner who can lift the restrictions instituted by Moorer. It appears they will keep Peavy. But what about Chris Young. If we add one of the lefties to the package, there might be some interest out here. I am not sure Betancourt fits the Padre mold but Shoppach and a young starter would. We could give up one of the flyball LHs who could be successful in Petco. Then we could worry about keeping the big guy healthy. We might be overpaying but I think I could live with it to stay in budget. :s_smile


Wolf will be more expensive than Garcia...plus wants a long term deal.

And I've heard people talk about Chris Young on other sites....but am I the only one that thinks he'd be a terrible idea for Cleveland? He's a flyball pitcher and would get rocked in Cleveland. He's really not any good away from Petco. I'd rather go with Reyes, Laffey, and Sowers 3-4-5 than trade for Young.....but that's just me....
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Re: What now?

Postby TheWord » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:14 pm

Consigliere wrote:
TheWord wrote:My question is, are we really going to play Valbuena at SS in Columbus?

Having Barfield and Valbuena at Columbus seems to be a slight problem.


No, Valbuena will be the reg 2B in Columbus. Barfield I think is gone by the end of spring training in some sort of trade. I don't see him going to Columbus, so unless he wins the final bench spot over Marte or someone else, he's gone I think.



Kind of a bummer. His minor league stats are certainly worth him sticking around, I just wish he could play 3B like Carroll can.

I hope he brings us something nice, hopefully a decent starting pitcher.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:53 pm

if packaged he could bring something decent. If Baltimore moves Roberts (which who knows what's going on there), barfield would be a nice replacement (if they don't get one for Roberts).


And I still get the feeling that Barfield will be in Columbus in 2009. Think Shapiro will hold onto him like Marte. Valbuena hopefull will (and SHOULD) see some time at SS. There's a shot he never becomes a starter in Cleveland. Needs to be able to play more than 2B so he could become a nice utility guy then.
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Re: What now?

Postby jellis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:32 pm

valbuena will be at 2B the indians dont project him as a utility guy and AAA is a bit late for him to learn a new position. I think valbuena is a hedged bet that either he or Hodges will pan out and be ready next year to start. This way if Hodges fails to improve defensively then Valbuena should be able to fill in the IF spot that will open
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:55 pm

He's not 'learning' a new position. He played it before including in the MLs just this past season.

I agree somewhat. Think one of Valbuena/Hodges will be starting in 2010.....who that is remains to be seen. But the fact that the Tribe isn't moving Peralta or Cabrera and using DeRosa at 3B could mean they're higher on Hodges (or could mean nothing, which is probably more likely). If Hodges does end up getting the job, and with Carroll being gone, Valbuena could easily be the utility guy in 2010 no matter how the Tribe 'projects' him.

And AAA is FAR from late to learn a new position. He's only 23. Guys do it at the ML level all the time as well.


Obviously he could easily get the job in 2010 and start at 2B (with Peralta and AC moving over). But having him play some SS this year would still be beneficial. Force him to work on his throws and range more. Can't really hurt.
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Re: What now?

Postby TheWord » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:06 pm

Valbuena played 2 innings of SS with Seattle last year and a total of only 10 games in the minor leagues up until that point.

AAA isn't too late to learn a position, but that position is RARELY, if ever, shortstop.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:25 pm

Never said he'd be a starting ML SS. The point was that if he fails to become a legit starting 2B, he'll need to play another position besides 2B if he wants to be in the bigs. He has the ability to play SS and even 3B (though only a few innings there).

He'll never play more than 20-30 games at SS in a season, but could be servicable backup at the position if needed (at least based on what I've read at least).

I agree, you almost never see a guy 'switch' positions to SS if they didn't play it much in the minors, but many players play there in their careers as utility guys after not playing there hardly at all in the minors (Belliard and Boone are two examples). Neither guy will start at SS ever, but can fill in and start at other spots on the infield.
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Re: What now?

Postby jellis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:54 pm

I dont remeber belliard every playing SS, not saying he didnt just dont remeber. Baegra definatly could not play SS. Its not a hueg need I really doubt Valbuena will play more than a game or 2 at any poistion other than 2B this year.

The indians want to maximize there options to replace derosa and as we learned from crowe, yes i know it was a much bigger switch, some players just dont do well when taken otu of a comfort zone they tend to fixate sometimes too much on the change
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:29 pm

Belliard has played SS for both Milwaukee and Washington. Never did in Cleveland but he wasn't a utility infielder in Cleveland either, he was our starter. Not sure why Baerga got brought up (I said Belliard and Boone, not Baerga).

In any case, Baerga DID play SS. Actually played a decent amount when he was younger for the Padres in the minors, and played a good amount there his rookie year with the tribe.

A utility infielder will be a need in 2010. Obviously you'd rather have Valbuena as a starter but if Hodges is playing well you could very likely see Valbuena as a utility guy. Not saying I want this to happen or necessarily think it will, but it's a possiblity.

Considering Valbuena is already an infielder and has played a bit of SS, it won't be a hard move....especially since NO ONE is saying he'll full out move to SS....
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Re: What now?

Postby petes999 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:22 pm

You know its the middle of the winter with nothing better to do when we are contemplating the 2010 utility role.

Remember, under Valbuena utility role scenario that Cabrera can just as easily can slide over to SS to have Valbuena play 2nd on Peralta's days off.

Also, Wedgie may want to spend $3 million to bring Carroll back for that veteran presence. You also have Rodriguez playing 2nd/ss in AA (but can't hit a lick yet) tabbed as a utility guy in a few years and Giminez playing c/1b/3b and of ready this year if Shoppach moves on.

Lot's of choices.... Key is SP ...
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:58 am

Could happen, but you could see both Peralta and Valbuena out at a given time. Point is keep your options open with Valbuena.

Wedge can want to spend $3M on Carroll all he wants but won't happen. $2.5M is already pricy for the tribe to spend on a UTI (what Carroll is making this year). They aren't gonna give him $3M for another year unless they decide to make him a starter.

Gimenez hasn't been able to hit at AAA. Plus he could be very good trade bait since he can catch. We do have other options. But again, makes no sense to just 'waste' Valbuena as only a 2B when he can play other spots as well.....especially in the minors where if he makes some bad plays at SS it really means nothing (as compared to in the MLs).
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Re: What now?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:33 am

Giminez hit .272/ .354/ .374/ .728 in 54 games 195 AB at AAA Buffalo. More than likely he starts the season in Columbus this season.

Perhaps you were thinking of Wyatt Toregas. He was lost at the plate in Buffalo last season but when he went back to Akron, he started to mash again: .296/ .371/ .574/ .945 in 47 games 162 AB; 9 doubles and 12 homers in that stretch.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:00 am

MadThinker88 wrote:Giminez hit .272/ .354/ .374/ .728 in 54 games 195 AB at AAA Buffalo. More than likely he starts the season in Columbus this season.

Perhaps you were thinking of Wyatt Toregas. He was lost at the plate in Buffalo last season but when he went back to Akron, he started to mash again: .296/ .371/ .574/ .945 in 47 games 162 AB; 9 doubles and 12 homers in that stretch.


ha, I know Gimenez is gonna be starting the season at Columbus this year. The only question is which one is the 'starter' there, him or Toregas. Tough call. Toregas is the better 'catcher'....but Gimenez has the bigger upside with his versatility....

no, I was thinking of Gimenez (not Toregas). Gimenez is suppose to have good power....a .374 SLG is not gonna cut it. Now did he struggle as much as Toregas? No, definately not (at least at AAA last year), but he still showed some struggles there.
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Re: What now?

Postby dnosco » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:12 am

petes999 wrote:You know its the middle of the winter with nothing better to do when we are contemplating the 2010 utility role.

Remember, under Valbuena utility role scenario that Cabrera can just as easily can slide over to SS to have Valbuena play 2nd on Peralta's days off.

Also, Wedgie may want to spend $3 million to bring Carroll back for that veteran presence. You also have Rodriguez playing 2nd/ss in AA (but can't hit a lick yet) tabbed as a utility guy in a few years and Giminez playing c/1b/3b and of ready this year if Shoppach moves on.

Lot's of choices.... Key is SP ...


Regarding Rodriguez, I think people are undervaluing him. In 2007 he hovered around the .245 mark until he turned it on in August. In 2008 he did the exact same thing but didn't really have that August spurt. All his other numbers (walks, SBs, triples, HRs, doubles) were still impressive and intriguing. Had he hit .260 instead of like .241 I think we would all still be talking about him in the same glowing terms that were used to talk about him last year.

I think to say that Rodriguez can't hit a lick is really not accurate. Yeah, he did struggle in the AFL last year but I would like to consider that an aberration rather than reality.

Regarding Valbuena as a utility guy I have always been for breaking guys in as backups. The problem with that is that it starts their arbitration/free agency clock for little (utility man) return on the investment the team put it to get the guy to the majors. If he is a backup for 1-2 years then becomes a starter we have him as a starter for very few of his cheap years.
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Re: What now?

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:12 am

I'm not going to worry about 'power' number for Chris until after this season at AAA.
In limited time in AAA he had 3 HR, 1 triple and 9 doubles. In half a season at AA in 2008 he had 6 HR, 1 triple and 15 doubles (over 177 AB).

The telling numbers are the BB/K ratios at the 2 places. In Buffalo: 23/60 In Akron: 52/33

Assuming Chris gets comfortable again, I see him locking in, laying off bad pitches and then starting to power the ball more.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:15 pm

dnosco wrote:Regarding Rodriguez, I think people are undervaluing him. In 2007 he hovered around the .245 mark until he turned it on in August. In 2008 he did the exact same thing but didn't really have that August spurt. All his other numbers (walks, SBs, triples, HRs, doubles) were still impressive and intriguing. Had he hit .260 instead of like .241 I think we would all still be talking about him in the same glowing terms that were used to talk about him last year.

I think to say that Rodriguez can't hit a lick is really not accurate. Yeah, he did struggle in the AFL last year but I would like to consider that an aberration rather than reality.

Regarding Valbuena as a utility guy I have always been for breaking guys in as backups. The problem with that is that it starts their arbitration/free agency clock for little (utility man) return on the investment the team put it to get the guy to the majors. If he is a backup for 1-2 years then becomes a starter we have him as a starter for very few of his cheap years.


I agree somewhat on Rodriguez with you. I think it was more though the fact that he was a 20-20 guy a year ago and this past year didn't come close to it that hurt his stock in some people's eyes. I still think he's a top 15-20 prospect, but I know most don't. He definately needs to rebound this year though....


eh, but you also have to consider that his 'option' clock is runnign too (regarding Valbuena). He does still have 3 options (one will be used this year). So he'd only be able to stay in the minors another 2 years....which he could still do (getting occasional calls up). but unless he turns into a superstar, he's not gonna get expensive as a utility infielder. He'll have plenty of 'cheap' years still ahead of him.....

Another thing to consider with Valbuena is using him as trade bait down the line. His trade value would be higher if he can show he can play a bit of SS (and even 3B) rather than just 2B. This is one thing that hurts Barfield's value. Not saying we should be looking at trading Valbuena right now, but in a year or two anything is possible. It's all about keeping options open and being versatile...
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:18 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I'm not going to worry about 'power' number for Chris until after this season at AAA.
In limited time in AAA he had 3 HR, 1 triple and 9 doubles. In half a season at AA in 2008 he had 6 HR, 1 triple and 15 doubles (over 177 AB).

The telling numbers are the BB/K ratios at the 2 places. In Buffalo: 23/60 In Akron: 52/33

Assuming Chris gets comfortable again, I see him locking in, laying off bad pitches and then starting to power the ball more.


Fair enough....but I worry about it. 2008 was the first time since 2002 (his freshman year at Nevada) that he didn't hit at least 10 HRs in a season (and had 26 in 2007). That's a big dropoff. He did put up 'video game' like numbers at Akron last year, so he's definately AAA ready......I just wonder how ML ready he'll be though even in a year. Though he does have all of 2009 to adjust and reestablish himself as a power threat.
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Re: What now?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:25 pm

The fact that the Indians have five catchers on the 40-man roster along with two of them set to split time in Columbus, both of which they want to play everyday, still leads me to believe one of them is traded this offseason or Shoppach is dealt.

(As an aside, if Gimenez is traded this offseason I give up.....my two favorite guys gone in one offseason. LOL)
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:35 pm

Consigliere wrote:The fact that the Indians have five catchers on the 40-man roster along with two of them set to split time in Columbus, both of which they want to play everyday, still leads me to believe one of them is traded this offseason or Shoppach is dealt.

(As an aside, if Gimenez is traded this offseason I give up.....my two favorite guys gone in one offseason. LOL)


You're likely right.....though I don't think it's too crazy to think that Gimenez could see time in the OF or DH as well in Columbus. And Santana in a year or so could be at 3B (if Hodges/Valbuena/Barfield don't pan out). I could see the tribe trying to extend Victor. Santana has the arm and athletism to play 3B (and has in the past).


As I said though, likely one will get traded.....still 'hoping' it's Shoppach (just because he's arb. elg. and a free agent after 2011)....but we'll see....

ha, who was your other fav player? Gut was one of mine....if Sowers or Jhonny P go I'll be livid, lol
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Re: What now?

Postby Jake Taylor » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:38 pm

I'm guessing Tony's talking about Stevens.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:39 pm

The interesting thing here is who's roster spot is he gonna take......

Jackson?
Marte?
Mujica?
Aubrey?
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Re: What now?

Postby Jake Taylor » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:54 pm

Good question Hermie... it's a tough call. Too bad we couldn't swing a trade that somehow dumped Dellucci or Kobayashi before deciding to make this deal.

Either way I don't think Marte is with the team when we're done with the Spring. Aubrey getting his 4th-option year definitely helps keep him on the team.

I'd like to dump Mujica and give Meloan the bullpen spot from the start of the season.
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:04 pm

ha, didn't mean to post that on this thread....meant it for the Pavano one....


eh, I'm kinda with you on Mujica....but Jackson would take the last spot then as both he and Mujica are out of options, not Meloan....
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Re: What now?

Postby cardiackidz » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:52 pm

the later we get in the offseason i just dont see shoppach getting dealt. i thought thats who they would deal to get a starting pitcher when the offseason started. maybe they do something with him during the season.
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Re: What now?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:05 pm

as much as I would've liked to see Shoppach dealt for a #3 starter, I don't mind keeping him at all. Shapiro doesn't have to trade him just for the sake of making a move. There's not a doubt in my mind that he thoroughly explored the market to see what kind of return a Shoppach package would yield. Keeping him also gives us the flexibility of moving Victor to 1st if Garko doesn't improve or if Victor isn't 100% healthy. Nor would we have to sign a backup catcher or throw Toregas/Gimenez into the deep. If there's a pressing need, Shapiro can always shop Shoppach during the season.
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Re: What now?

Postby cardiackidz » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:31 pm

i agree jp
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Re: What now?

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:49 pm

Consigliere wrote:The fact that the Indians have five catchers on the 40-man roster along with two of them set to split time in Columbus, both of which they want to play everyday, still leads me to believe one of them is traded this offseason or Shoppach is dealt.

(As an aside, if Gimenez is traded this offseason I give up.....my two favorite guys gone in one offseason. LOL)


It's OK Tony! You still have Drennen and Nottingham. On a less facetious note, with Aubrey removed from the equation in all likelihood, the Indians might be setting up Gimenez and Head as utility supersubs who play on a regular basis. Gimenez can catch for 50 games and play another 50 at 3B/OF/DH. Head can do the same at 1B/OF/DH. In truth, Brown is not as good defensively as Head and Gimenez may play 3B as well as Hodges. It is possible that the most likely move from the position players, excluding injury moves, will come from the OF. If we keep Shoppach this year, I suspect both may just become utility players anyway. Just my thoughts. :s_drinks
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:59 am

JP_Frost wrote:as much as I would've liked to see Shoppach dealt for a #3 starter, I don't mind keeping him at all. Shapiro doesn't have to trade him just for the sake of making a move. There's not a doubt in my mind that he thoroughly explored the market to see what kind of return a Shoppach package would yield. Keeping him also gives us the flexibility of moving Victor to 1st if Garko doesn't improve or if Victor isn't 100% healthy. Nor would we have to sign a backup catcher or throw Toregas/Gimenez into the deep. If there's a pressing need, Shapiro can always shop Shoppach during the season.


:s_rofl

ha, not sure why but I found those two words funny.


I do agree with the rest as well. Don't 'have' to move him at all. And it bugs me when people say we do because 'his value will never be higher'.......which very well may be true, but could easily not as well. If Shoppach does start 130 games this year (for one reason or another) and hits 20 HRs again, cuts down on the K's some, and throws out more runners his stock will go UP even more......and is it really 'that' far out to think he can improve on his 2008 numbers? I sure don't think so.

I'm pulling for a Shoppach trade....but only if it truly improves this club in 2009 and 2010.....which that trade just may not be out there....at least yet.....

Could see a mid-season deal, especially if Posada goes down with another injury for the Yanks....
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Re: What now?

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:08 pm

Bottom line, the only way Shoppach will play and play often the next two years to where he gets close to the number of at bats he had last year is if Victor gets hurt. Victor is the primary catcher, which means he will at least catch 110+ games a year. That means it will be hard for Shoppach to improve on his 2008 campaign because of limited opportunities, and the only opp for him to do so would be if Victor is hurt for a long time again. And, if that were to happen, the season is tanked anyway.

You don't trade him to trade him, but if there is very good value out there for him, you absolutely do so. He is about at his peak level of performance, with severally limited opps to improve on it the next two years because he is the backup catcher behind an All-Star. Victor will get a little more time at 1B, but even still, that isn't going to help get Shoppach to 400-some at bats.
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Re: What now?

Postby MickS » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:27 pm

I think most of us are saying the same thing. There's no need to trade Shoppach until somebody comes to us with the proverbial "offer that we can't refuse". Patience.
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Re: What now?

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:29 pm

Consigliere wrote:Bottom line, the only way Shoppach will play and play often the next two years to where he gets close to the number of at bats he had last year is if Victor gets hurt. Victor is the primary catcher, which means he will at least catch 110+ games a year. That means it will be hard for Shoppach to improve on his 2008 campaign because of limited opportunities, and the only opp for him to do so would be if Victor is hurt for a long time again. And, if that were to happen, the season is tanked anyway.

You don't trade him to trade him, but if there is very good value out there for him, you absolutely do so. He is about at his peak level of performance, with severally limited opps to improve on it the next two years because he is the backup catcher behind an All-Star. Victor will get a little more time at 1B, but even still, that isn't going to help get Shoppach to 400-some at bats.


So nice to read a voice of reason after reading hermie's incessant BS! :s_thumbsup
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Re: What now?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:44 pm

I disagree....what does the Tribe do if Hafner gets hurt? Do they bring up LaPorta? Or Brown who's not on the 40-man? Or move DeRosa there and use Marte/Carroll at 3B? Do they use Looch as a full-time starter then? Doubtful on all fronts IMO......most likely Garko moves to DH, Vic to 1B, and Shoppach to Catcher.

And what if Garko gets hurt? Same thing basically.

Now obviously I'm not pulling for either to happen....but they are possibilities (especially the first scenario).


And maybe I'm overvaluing defense for a catcher.....but Shoppach only threw out 21% of would be basestealers last year (47 total chances), which is pretty sad. Victor on the other hand threw out 37% (35 total chances)....WITH an elbow that required surgery. That's as bad as getting beat in a foot race by a guy with sprained ankle...it just shouldn't happen.

Shoppach's value isn't that high. Most GMs and scouts would prefer a catcher that throws out 35-40% of runners and hits 10 HRs than a guy that hits 20 but only throws out 20% of runners 10 out of 10 times. Yeah, Shoppach traditionally is much better at stopping the run game.....but he likely wore down during the season (as seen by his need for offseason knee surgery)....which may never change if a full-time ML starter. Teams noticed this, I gurantee you that.

I'm hoping that an offseason/spring of working hard with Joel Skinner can right the ship defensively for Shoppach (just as it did for Victor a couple seasons ago). IF this happens, Shoppach's value will go up even without getting 400 at-bats this year, provided he still shows some power when he does get playing time.



As far as trading him before the season starts....barring an injury somewhere, there's really not a good spot for him to land.

Houston really could use a catcher...but they are hurting with their payroll and may not want to bother with an arbitration hearing. Plus they really don't have anything to offer. They don't have much pitching and their farm system is pretty weak. Wandy Rodriguez is a bit intriguing....but being a lefty, may not really provide anything more than what we already have, especially moving to the AL.

Florida may need a catcher. Baker opened eyes last year for them with a nice OBP and playing well behind the plate. However, there may be some concern as to his ability to maintain it over a full season. They cut ties with Treanor and may look for a player like Shoppach.....though another arbitration player is definatley not what they really want.....unless we took one or two off their hands. Hermida is a nice player....but with Grady and Choo both being lefties in the OF we really don't need him....plus he may not be 'that' big an upgrade over Francisco in 2009. They do have some nice young pithcers....but most are cheap, and doubtful they'll part with them for a catcher....though you never know. Matt Dominguez would be a very nice add. Very good defensive 3B (former SS) with ok bat. Bat doesn't play well at 3B, but still a nice young talent.

Seattle could use an upgrade behind hte plate. Clement appears a DH and johjma is terrible (and pricy). They do have Rob Johnson though......and are rebuilding, so not likely to want Shoppach (though with that backwards franchise, nothing would suprise me). Not sure what they'd give us anyways though. Bedard would be a nice add if healthy....though they'd want a lot for him after what they gave up (plus is due at least $7M in arbitration). Beltre isn't needed now that we have DeRosa.....

Toronto could use Shoppach as well. They have some young catchers but an upgrade in 2009 and 2010 would be beneficial. But they need the same as us, starting pitching.....so again, don't really see a match here....though I'd love to get Rios from them somehow, someway.....

The Mets are said to be looking for a catcher possibly. Rumor a while back was they may move Schneider to Boston but only if they could secure another catcher somehow......in steps Shoppach? Mets have some intriguing players. They need help in the rotation though.....so gonna be hard to get them to part with any of it. Though if they land Lowe and Perez.....they may be willing move someone. Would Maine be tradable in that scenario? Rotation of Santana, Lowe, Pelfrey, Perez, and Niese is still a great rotation. Or you could look at Niese perhaps (Ohio boy).....another lefty though....appears better than the ones we have....though could easily not be....

What other team really needs a catcher? Boston of course.....but doesn't sound like they're willing to part with anything that would help the Tribe in 2009 (though if we could somehow work out a deal to land Bay, I'd be estatic).

Yanks may.....but not at the moment.....

Atlanta? maybe....if they're not sold on Kotchman at 1B and want to move McCann there.....which isn't likely....

Philly? Ruiz had a great postseason.....but wasn't anything special recently otherwise. They won't part with carrasco and not sure what else really would help us (that would be gettable at least). Happ appears about the same as many of our lefties....Kendrick struggled last year and lost a job.....

Angels? Suppose anything is possible....if they don't land Dunn or Ramirez, they could look at a guy like Shoppach as a DH I suppose and split time with Napoli behind the plate. Mathis could then be moved or kept I suppose.....a million to one shot (at best)..........

Padres have a need.....but are cheap and rebuilding....would want Santana instead likely. In any case, only guy that would really help is Peavy.....and that's not happening. Young maybe (though I'm not a fan at all).....or Giles I guess.....but not worth Shoppach.....

Some teams had holes but have filled them....

Rays had one at DH/backup catcher....added Burrell so have no need for Shoppach.

Reds added Hernandez from the O's so don't need Shoppach (though he'd be an upgrade).

Dodgers kept Blake and Furcal.....so no move for Martin to 3B opening up catcher.



Any other destination I'm missing that Shoppach would even make any sense going to?
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