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Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

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Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:51 pm

Chris Antonetti is not the man for the job as GM of a major league team. He should be replaced. Hopefully his contract is up after this season, as the Dolan's will not pay for another GM as long as they are paying Antonetti.

He has been GM for about a year and a half, and his signature move in that time was the trade for Ubaldo Jimenez. I do not fault him for making that agressive move. The Indians were in the race, but injuries were holding them back.
I believe this trade has left CA "gun-shy". He is afraid to be bold and afraid to make reasonable offers.

I do fault him for not making additional moves last season to counter those injuries. The Indians collapsed at the end last season and maybe no move would have been good enough.

That led to this past off season. It was a disaster. The Indians needed a LF & 1B. Many people were moved during the off season that would have filled the bill. No trades were made, (other than Lowe). Minor league FA and ST invites were given to the usual suspects. Out of desperation, Johnny Damon was signed after the season started, (instead of in ST.)

That led to this season's trade deadline. The debate was whether the Indians should be buyers or sellers. We wound up being neither. People were moved recently that would have filled the bill.

Baseball teams don't stand still. You either are getting better or you're getting worse. Today we got worse. Both for now, and for the future.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:03 pm

Agree Ted Cox - I wonder how the ML players feel right now. Wonder if we take a nose dive now or see some inspired play.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:07 pm

His mistakes really date back to last off season. Not acquiring the RH bat and settling for Kotchman, Lowe and Lopez as the big splash. At this trade deadline, I think he was a bit sticker-shocked with what teams were asking for mediocre talent. He failed to read the affects of the new collective bargaining agreement and the additional wild card.

It might be time for a new face and someone that doesn't prescribe totally to the Moneyball game plan. CA is basically Shapiro junior. I don't mind have some Moneyball thought process but this team needs more old school approach. Go out and get someone from Tampa Bay (who I think drafts well).
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:21 pm

And another thread that's pretty much wasted key strokes...

CA is in over his head?..

That's the explanation..or is it the lame excuse you want to use to say you didn't like what was accomplished?.. :rolleyes
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:24 pm

@ G'son - what was accomplished????
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:44 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:And another thread that's pretty much wasted key strokes...

CA is in over his head?..

That's the explanation..or is it the lame excuse you want to use to say you didn't like what was accomplished?.. :rolleyes


CA took this job with his eyes wide open. He knew the challenges and who the owners are. His mission as GM is to improve the team, and get things done.
He made one bold move last season. After that, nothing substantial has been accomplished. That weakens the organization.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:52 pm

Quite honestly, I'm tired of this crap. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. This guy has been on the job for.. what.. a year? A year and a half? And he's already in over his head? Good grief. You're damned if you make a big trade with Ubaldo and damned if you don't this year when you don't. Yeah, Kotchman and Damon haven't panned out, but no GM is perfect. Until the fans start showing up to games and generating money to spend, I don't know what more you expect.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:09 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Quite honestly, I'm tired of this crap. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. This guy has been on the job for.. what.. a year? A year and a half? And he's already in over his head? Good grief. You're damned if you make a big trade with Ubaldo and damned if you don't this year when you don't. Yeah, Kotchman and Damon haven't panned out, but no GM is perfect. Until the fans start showing up to games and generating money to spend, I don't know what more you expect.


+1, nothing more to say
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:25 pm

"Yeah, Kotchman and Damon haven't panned out, but no GM is perfect. Until the fans start showing up to games and generating money to spend, I don't know what more you expect."

The problem with Damon is - it did not work - it is time to move on. As for Kotchman - he would be fine if he was not part of the troika of black holes - 1b, 3b and LF.

IMO we could carry a Kotchman or Hannahan or Damon if the other two positions were making a normal contribution. The problem is we now have 3 black holes in the lineup.

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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:25 pm

I would have liked to have seen another minor deal or two made to add future depth, but those can still be made in August. It looked like a buyer's market to me, and the Indians shouldn't be buyers this year. There were no deals that left me scratching my head, thinking the seller pulled off a great haul in prospects. I believe part of that is because with the new CBA, the buyers are now only paying for the value of that one player for 2-3 months, and not for the supplemental picks that used to come along with it. It didn't look like the market to sell on Choo or anyone under contract for another year.

I think management failed big time in the off-season, but I can't hold anything against them over today's action (or lack of it).
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:38 pm

"I think management failed big time in the off-season, but I can't hold anything against them over today's action (or lack of it)."

Management decided to go heavy on the lefties. Many think it was a mistake because we cannot beat most lefties. However, we have been in contention for half of the season. Is the fact we are in contention at all a sign of success?
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Quite honestly, I'm tired of this crap. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. This guy has been on the job for.. what.. a year? A year and a half? And he's already in over his head? Good grief. You're damned if you make a big trade with Ubaldo and damned if you don't this year when you don't. Yeah, Kotchman and Damon haven't panned out, but no GM is perfect. Until the fans start showing up to games and generating money to spend, I don't know what more you expect.


+1, nothing more to say


Perhaps it is a bit harsh to call for his head at this point. I am not a fan of his though, lets hope he proves me wrong this off-season/next yr if he still has his job.... Its not damned if you do (have to do something for this to count) but it is most certainly DAMNED IF YOU DON'T. When you say "until fans show up".....I say HA HA HA.. Don't you get it, the fanbase is fairweather and feel betrayed by the owners/FO... Right or wrong, it is now 100% in the hands of the OWNERS/FO to convince/get the fans to come out for a game. Fans (fairweather ones which is most of clevelands fans) will not return until they feel the managment/owners are really trying to deliver a quality product period.

In regards to the Ubaldo trade - I think most everyone here respects the agressiveness of the trade. I know I do, I thought it wasn't the greatest idea (feel free to go back and read my Pence rants from last year) but it took BALLS. and if it paid out - it was a brilliant move.

I was going to file my next tirade in a different thread but this works.

All you people who refer to not signing Willingham as B.S hindsight nitpicking - once again you FAIL to see/remember the bigger picture. When we whiffed on Willingham, there were quite a few of us who thought it was a mistake seeing how without a doubt he WAS THE IDEAL free agent considering our collective needs. Now here is the part YOU FORGET. IT was earlier enough in the off-season we all hoped/expected BIGGER moves - bigger than Willingham because we PASSED on him. We all fooled ourselves into believing that we were going to get an awesome BAT for 2012. It did not happen, so now that Willingham is having a spectacular season of course there are some sour grapes. Because he was EXACTLY the kind of bat we needed and we 100% could of had him. And before anyone says he was to big a gamble ----- how about SIZEMORE, KOTCHMAN, PIE, CANZLER, LOPEZ, LOWE, CUNNINGHAM and DAMON.. Gamble? Ha.
Last edited by criznit2009 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:48 pm

"All you people who refer to not signing Willingham as B.S hindsight nitpicking - once again you FAIL to see/remember the bigger picture. When we whiffed on Willingham, there were quite a few of us who thought it was a mistake seeing how without a doubt he WAS THE IDEAL free agent considering our collective needs"

3b. LF and 1b - all black holes.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:16 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:"All you people who refer to not signing Willingham as B.S hindsight nitpicking - once again you FAIL to see/remember the bigger picture. When we whiffed on Willingham, there were quite a few of us who thought it was a mistake seeing how without a doubt he WAS THE IDEAL free agent considering our collective needs"

3b. LF and 1b - all black holes.


Just because some people called it doesn't mean they're automatically right about everything else. For the record I wanted Willingham as well, but I still think it's defensible to have passed on him given that:
1) He didn't have a position
2) He's already well past 30
3) Long-term deals (especially to guys past 30) are notoriously poisonous to teams with limited revenues. If the Willingham deal failed, his contract becomes an albatross. This was the big lesson that we had to learn from the Delucci and Michaels contracts, right? Don't give long-term contracts to old guys that will later make it harder to cut them loose. I mean, the Indians haven't allowed themselves to let go of Johnny Damon, and he's just a one-year deal.

I don't think I'm failing to see the big picture. The big picture to me is that Willingham certainly would've been nice in retrospect, and even at the time I thought he was a good candidate. But it's not like him failing to get signed was completely indefensible, and it's not like Josh Willingham would be THE thing that would put us in contention this year. Sure, it would be nice to have him. But we'd still be several games out and talking about how our rotation is bad, 1B is bad, and 3B is also a mess.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:25 pm

The problem is that failing Willingham - there has been nothing - nothing. It would have been fine if there was something else - but there was not.

We are now donw 1 - against KC - I fear the game is over. I hope I have to eat these words. I doubt it.

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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:45 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:The problem is that failing Willingham - there has been nothing - nothing. It would have been fine if there was something else - but there was not.

We are now donw 1 - against KC - I fear the game is over. I hope I have to eat these words. I doubt it.

Bob


+1 Amen. It's not complaining about not signing Willingham......it's complaining about not addressing an obvious need then trying to sell us on Kotchman. Slowey didn't work out (or hasn't yet) and Lowe did early but has faded.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:57 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:The problem is that failing Willingham - there has been nothing - nothing. It would have been fine if there was something else - but there was not.


There were attempts to get Carlos Lee and Carlos Pena. I don't call those nothing. And given the length of those contracts and the positions they played, I think those were probably better players to be chasing. And while Kotchman/Damon were certainly nothing great, they were at the time considerable upgrades over the potential of starting Matt LaPorta and Aaron Cunningham. Nothing special, sure, but not nothing.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:07 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Quite honestly, I'm tired of this crap. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. This guy has been on the job for.. what.. a year? A year and a half? And he's already in over his head? Good grief. You're damned if you make a big trade with Ubaldo and damned if you don't this year when you don't. Yeah, Kotchman and Damon haven't panned out, but no GM is perfect. Until the fans start showing up to games and generating money to spend, I don't know what more you expect.


I'm not calling for Antonetti's head, but you're being too easy on him. During his (short) tenure, he's destroyed more value than he's created. You're not doing a good job when your crowning achievement is signing Jack Hanahan as a minor league free agent. I honestly don't know what his other good moves have been? I mean, seriously. What? Lindor in the 1st round?

You cite the fans as a problem, but when your only off-season moves are acquiring guys like Derek Lowe, Casey Kotchman, Kevin Slowey, Jack Hanahan, Felix Pie, Orlando Cabrera, Austin Kearns, Chad Durbin, Travis Buck you're doing very, very little to attract fans to the park. I know the Indians were close on Carlos Beltran, but bottom line, the Indians did not get it done. Antonetti is a smart enough guy to realize that Kotchman and Slowey aren't going to pack the seats, so the Indians are responsible to a fair extent. I know Cleveland isn't booming economically, but neither is Detroit and they somehow are filling their stadium at 90% capacity compared to the Indians 47% (ESPN stats) despite being behind the Indians in the standings for most of the year.

I believe the Indians tried to do something in the last week, either as a buyer or seller. It's very possible no deals were attractive to them and I prefer them not to do bad deals, but this team needs to dedicate itself to one direction. That could mean committing itself to a free agent contract this off-season that will look bad 3 years from now, but be good for the next 1-2 years. Cleveland has been reluctant to do these things, but thats why they dont have Willingham or Beltran on this team. It's a term in economics called the "winner's curse"; the party that acquires the asset only did so b/c they were willing to pay more than any other party, and therefore they lose b/c they paid more than anyone else thought the asset was worth. Unless your farm system is good (the Indians' is not), you've got to overpay through free agency to get the talent you need to compete. That leaves the Indians in a bad position. If the Indians aren't willing to take some real risks in free agency this off-season, they need to trade Masterson, Choo, Perez before they get too close to free agency and lose their value b/c signing Lyle Overbay and Reed Johnson this December isn't going to put the Indians in the 2013 playoffs.

It's early in Antonetti's tenure, but I struggle to find anything good that he's done so far. I do like trading a 27 year old pitcher in AA for Lars Anderson, though!
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby indians1 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:19 pm

I am not saying that chris antonetti is in over his head, but i think the FO of shapiro and antonetti are way overrated. The run a first class organization in how they treat their players and don't allow the soap operas that we see in berea every day.

that being said, they have sucked in talent evaluation. Geronimo is going to find a way to defend the FO, but the fact remains not one impact player has come from the indians drafts in 12+ years other than maybe jason kipnis.

That is why we are an average baseball team. Nobody should expect this team to be big spenders in free agency, but the expectation is that they can draft and develop impact players so that we can compete with the big market teams.

Even with the more aggressive drafting over the last few years with drafting overslot, what has that given us? They still have been wrong on most if not all of these overslot players.... trey haley, tj house, bryce stowell, where is lavon washington, alex lavisky, tony wolters, .... there are more that i am forgetting but you have to hit on some of these guys. Their talent evaluation is bad.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:05 am

While there weren't a lot of people just screaming to sign Willingham, still quite a few mentioned liking him & I can't imagine anyone complaining if we had signed him. I specifically remember that many of us were surprised at the quite reasonable contract that he signed with the Twins. Three yrs/$21 million is cheap if he played to his career averages, let alone the monster year he has going now. Don't throw away $5 million chunks on nothing & you'll have plenty of money for those types of contracts. Those are the types of contracts that this team should seek to sign as a rule. We could afford 5 or 6 starters making that kind of money, plus 2 or 3 pitchers. I don't even consider 3 yrs a long term contract or that big of a risk unless you're signing a 38 yr old guy. Willingham was about the age Kipnis will be when he hits his 1st FA year. Will anyone bitch if they extend Kip tomorrow by buying out his 1st 3 FA years for $21 million.

I liked the Ubie trade, still do as I haven't given up on him yet. The talent is still there. I think Antonetti really effed up not signing Willingham. I don't think it's a Moneyball thing either as the team's moves don't seem to have any rhyme or reason to them. I'n not privy to all of the info they have on our minor leaguers but I can't think of an excuse for not bringing up Fedroff/Kluber/Goedert/Zeke, et al, since the lack of moves at the trade deadline tells me they're throwing in the towel. i don't agree with giving up before August but it looks like they've done it.

I've never done the Dolan-is-Cheap thing but wouldn't it be great if they did bring up the kids who then lit a fire under the team, bringing them back into contention & forcing Scrooge to have to pry open his coin purse to fuel a playoff run???
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Edible14 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:53 am

I've been kind of defensive of a lot of things, mostly because I'm a hopeless optimist, but I've never argued that Antonetti deserves no criticism. What I don't like is the idea that people are going to take a look at one or two bad moves / non-moves (however critical they may have been) and use it to fuel their "DOWN WITH THE INDIANS" narrative. Few people enjoy arguing about things like cable revenue, players preferring one city to another, leaguewide inequalities, etc. But there are plenty of things that contributed to the Indians not being as good as we wanted. To suggest that it should all fall on a second-year GM is silly to me.

Take a look at this team position-by-position:

C: Santana's struggles were predicted by probably nobody. I don't think that falls on management
1B: Carlos Lee wanted to sign elsewhere for less. Fielder was out of our price range. Kotchman has woefully underperformed (even if you thought last year was a mirage hitting-wise, his track record didn't indicate he'd be THIS bad). They probably should have traded for Youk here, though. Hard to justify at the time though, since he was underperforming and injury prone.
2B/SS - We're fine. In fact, these two positions are awesome
3B: I'm not sure why Jack Hannahan has decided that walking is for losers. His chase rates and subsequently walk rates are awful this year. The injuries to him and Chis, along with his underperformance are things I don't blame on the FO. The position is a mess, but they've certainly tried a number of things.
RF: Choo bounced back this year as hoped. Good news.
CF: Brantley has taken some big steps forward. Have to like what we've seen out of him
LF: A mess. A lot of things went into this mess (Grady hurt, missing out on Beltran, not signing Willingham), but to be honest just about every team in the majors would like another solid outfielder. It's one position, and it's not single-handedly killing the team
DH: Hafner has been fine

SP: Masterson and Ubaldo have been obvious disappointments. Lowe was a decent pickup at first, but has since flamed out. Tomlin has been off. Gomez was bad. Zach McAllister might be our best starter right now, and he wasn't even here when the team was in first. How did this team compete at all with this rotation?
RP: The middle has been inconsistent, but that's kind-of par for the course with relievers. The back end has been unspeakably awesome.

What's killing this team is not one position. Josh Willingham would not make this team a division leader right now. Hell, even if the Indians managed to sign Willingham AND Carlos Pena, I'm not sure they'd be in first. And if they were leading, who would be comfortable in that spot with the rotation we're trotting out? The only way this team competes, both in the regular season and in the hypothetical playoffs, is if some of their starters get their act together. And it wouldn't hurt if Carlos Santana would actually hit for some power (he's getting back there as of late, but maybe too late). A lot of what has happened with this team falls on the shoulders of the players.

And similarly, it's just as silly to try to pin this on the fans. Even IF the Indians were roughly average as far as attendance goes - say you add an extra half a million yearly paying customers to put them right where Atlanta was last year at #15 in attendance - you're only going to generate about $10M more in revenue that way given the ticket prices. That could net you one good (not elite) free agent, or two Derek Lowe/Grady Sizemore type of risks. That's not really the thing that drives home the competitive edge for the bigger markets. The difference there is that the Angels make $150M/year in cable revenue, and the Indians make one fifth of that. The lack of attendance, while maddening, is not at root for the economic disparity between the teams that are players in the free agent market and teams that aren't.

To me the role of GM is to try to improve the team. I don't think Antonetti made any one move this off-season that clearly made the team worse. Kotchman and Damon, while awful and not as big of pickups as you'd like, are still improvements over what existed at those positions prior to their acquisition. Lowe was a decent pickup (hard to say now, but he definitely kept the team in it early in the season). The only person they "lost" of any value was Fausto, and that's certainly not something I blame Antonetti for. If the Indians as a team have taken a big step back as a team, it's because they are playing worse than last year, something that's really not Antonetti or Shapiro's fault.

Not saying that they're absolved of all sins, but it's not right to just try to reduce this to "Chris Antonetti fails as a GM, and this is his fault".
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:37 am

@ Edible - Hafner has been "fine"???? - what the bleep ever, considering he is strictly a DH - he has been a disappointment this year.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby ironmike » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:51 am

Edible14, wrote ... What's killing this team is not one position


One position?

Explain.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Bearcatbob » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:04 am

criznit2009 wrote:@ Edible - Hafner has been "fine"???? - what the bleep ever, considering he is strictly a DH - he has been a disappointment this year.


I was about to post the same observation. It looks to me unless a pitcher makes huge mistake to Hafner he is an easy out.

Frankly, the magnitude of this post ASB collapse is stunning.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:59 am

Bearcatbob wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:@ Edible - Hafner has been "fine"???? - what the bleep ever, considering he is strictly a DH - he has been a disappointment this year.


I was about to post the same observation. It looks to me unless a pitcher makes huge mistake to Hafner he is an easy out.

Frankly, the magnitude of this post ASB collapse is stunning.


personally i don't like having a DH only on the roster that can only play about 110 games a year. Without being able to play a position, it makes the other 4 non-starters to have fill several roles (which is one reason why Cunningham ate up another roster spot for so long - all OF positions and RH hitter).
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Edible14 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:00 am

ironmike wrote:
Edible14, wrote ... What's killing this team is not one position


One position?

Explain.


I thought I did. The part where I said Josh Willingham wouldn't singlehandedly make this team a first place team right now. As bad as the mess of LF is, it's still only one position and it doesn't account for everything that's gone wrong. Unless you believe in the magic of synergy, and that somehow Josh Willingham would have made Carlos Santana and Jack Hannahan hit better, and would make our pitchers pitch up to expectations.

Bearcatbob wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:@ Edible - Hafner has been "fine"???? - what the bleep ever, considering he is strictly a DH - he has been a disappointment this year.


I was about to post the same observation. It looks to me unless a pitcher makes huge mistake to Hafner he is an easy out.


Travis Hafner, as a hitter only, has a .5 WAR in just 59 games. His OBP is .350, good for third on the team amongst regular starters, and his OPS is similarly 3rd on the team. Tied for second in wOBA with Asdrubal. Statistically, he's still a good hitter and one of our best. Still not worth his contract, but still nowhere near "the problem" with the offense.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:46 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:I know Cleveland isn't booming economically, but neither is Detroit and they somehow are filling their stadium at 90% capacity compared to the Indians 47% (ESPN stats) despite being behind the Indians in the standings for most of the year.


Detroit is a much larger metro area than Cleveland. I think too many fail to realize this. Detroit for all it's struggles is still a top 12 metro area in the entire country. You can count on one hand how many markets are smaller than Cleveland in baseball. So even though Detroit may have been hurt the most by this economy of any city, there is still a large pool of people that have money to pull from. You can't compare Cleveland and Detroit. Cleveland and Pittsburgh or Cleveland and Cincy sure, but Detroit is a boderline large market still.


As far as Antonetti....I get what you're saying on he hasn't really done anything (though I think you too easily brushed aside getting Lindor in here, even if it was more the scouting department). But on the flip side, what more could he have done? Or what more would another GM have been able to do in the same situation? Yeah we weren't able to sign Beltran...would another GM have gotten it done? Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's the case. Maybe another GM gets a big trade done this winter....but not sure what that GM would have been able to deal.


Hindsight you could point out a few things Antonetti could have done better. Not dealign for Ubaldo and going hard after Gio this winter would have been better (and doable if you had Pom and White IMO). I was also pretty disappointed we didn't go harder after Edwin Jackson as pitching was our biggest need and still is. Other than that though, he tried to get Beltran and offered a more than reasonable deal. Offered more for Pena and lost out. I'm not ready to crown Antonetti a great GM but think bashing him for non-deals is a bit much as well.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:49 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:I know Cleveland isn't booming economically, but neither is Detroit and they somehow are filling their stadium at 90% capacity compared to the Indians 47% (ESPN stats) despite being behind the Indians in the standings for most of the year.


Detroit is a much larger metro area than Cleveland. I think too many fail to realize this. Detroit for all it's struggles is still a top 12 metro area in the entire country. You can count on one hand how many markets are smaller than Cleveland in baseball. So even though Detroit may have been hurt the most by this economy of any city, there is still a large pool of people that have money to pull from. You can't compare Cleveland and Detroit. Cleveland and Pittsburgh or Cleveland and Cincy sure, but Detroit is a boderline large market still.


As far as Antonetti....I get what you're saying on he hasn't really done anything (though I think you too easily brushed aside getting Lindor in here, even if it was more the scouting department). But on the flip side, what more could he have done? Or what more would another GM have been able to do in the same situation? Yeah we weren't able to sign Beltran...would another GM have gotten it done? Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's the case. Maybe another GM gets a big trade done this winter....but not sure what that GM would have been able to deal.


Hindsight you could point out a few things Antonetti could have done better. Not dealign for Ubaldo and going hard after Gio this winter would have been better (and doable if you had Pom and White IMO). I was also pretty disappointed we didn't go harder after Edwin Jackson as pitching was our biggest need and still is. Other than that though, he tried to get Beltran and offered a more than reasonable deal. Offered more for Pena and lost out. I'm not ready to crown Antonetti a great GM but think bashing him for non-deals is a bit much as well.


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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby ironmike » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:31 pm

Cleveland booming?

That has nothing to do with talent evaluation. Put a shining product on the field the fans will come out. It happened before and can happen again. It's about the talent level of people making the decisions.

The culprit is Shapiro, not a good baseball man, just look at his poor track record. It's bad. He's got to step down.

Our only hope is a guy like John Hart could put together a buying group come back and be the President of the Indians and hire the right people in all areas. WE need good baseball people, it is that simple. We don't have them unless you look at them through the eyes of Hermie and Geronimo who get so tied up in stats and they can't see reality.

How can a player who doesn't walk ever be a professional hitter? Because Atkins says so? Duck, he's wrong.

One of the best strategies the Indians could do in 2013 to win back the fans is drop ALL of the promotions including fireworks and bobbleheads, caps, jackets and bats, whatever; and their marketing campaign should ONLY be about WINNING. No commercials reflecting the 90's just a dedicated marketing campaign for WINNING. Drop the word PROSPECT, all the focus on WINNING. Winning at all costs. Winning being the ONLY priority. Winning keeps all the front office people employed or they go. Winning.

Get the people in positions who can do the job.

As a guy over at the PD wrote this morning ... the rebuilding needs to start with the OWNER, a new one.

What Dolan, Dolan and Shapiro have sold you is the "sizzle: (promotions, fireworks) without the "steak" (talent) and in the real business world that is a scam. Personally glad to see more fans realizing what is really going on ... been on this for a long time, just check my posting history.

Arguing with rubes here who buy the sizzle.

Sooner or later reality must come to the surface and it is doing that now ... that is good. With change comes new life and a new broom sweeps clean.

Only with a cleansing and new ownership will this turn around.

Amen.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:11 pm

What are the Indians doing differently now than they have in the past?

If you look back at 07, our last successful season, most of that group was homegrown or acquired through trades. No big free agents, no big spending. Wast the talent better? Probably, but you need some luck in that department. Prospects bust more often than not. Some of it is in your control, but most of it isn't. You play the hand that you think is best at that time.

Maybe Jake Sisco becomes our new CC, McClure our new Grady, Santana our new Victor, Aguilar our new Hafner, and Lindor our new HoF SS. We won't know, but we do know that you cannoy acquire those guys via free agency.

Of course there are some things that could've been dealt with differently or better, however you need to stick to a philosophy, and I happen to think the Indians have the right one, but it's not paying off at the moment. Which is why I'm willing to have faith in the people currently running with that philosophy instead of turning it upside down and going in an entirely new direction (as I don't think there is one).
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:21 pm

Starting about 1 year ago, the following players have been on the market, (either via trade or FA).

Delmon Young
Yonder Alonso
Anthony Rizzo
Josh Willingham
Yoenis Cespedes
Carlos Pena
Michael Cuddyer
Luke Scott
Melky Cabrera
Carlos Lee
Gabby Sanchez
(yesterday)

Few of these players are high dollar FA.
Any of these names would have helped the Indians.

Congratulations to the GM's of the teams that found a way to make it happen.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:25 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Starting about 1 year ago, the following players have been on the market, (either via trade or FA).

Delmon Young
Yonder Alonso
Anthony Rizzo
Josh Willingham
Yoenis Cespedes
Carlos Pena
Michael Cuddyer
Luke Scott
Melky Cabrera
Carlos Lee
Gabby Sanchez
(yesterday)

Few of these players are high dollar FA.
Any of these names would have helped the Indians.

Congratulations to the GM's of the teams that found a way to make it happen.


Delmon Young: .297 wOBA in 2012, well below average fielder, only once had an ISO over .150 in a full season, $6.75M
Alonso: Has been targeted by people on this board, so-so season, was the main prospect in Mat Latos trade.
Rizzo: Very promising bat, would've liked him, but dealt for Cashner by GM who drafted him and traded for him in SD. Unfair advantage.
Willingham: Indians made him a solid offer, but opted for 3rd year with Twins. Great season, but probably a career year.
Cespedes: Unknown raw Cuban OF'er, signed for $9M a year. Too much of a risk.
Pena: Horrible season. Took a discount to return to old club.
Cuddyer: Having OK season, but at 33-years old and $10.5M a year over 3 seasons not worth it.
Scott: was mentioned here as well, very mediocre season, is a DH and too expensive at $6M
Cabrera: having amazing season, probably a career year (.387 babip), was dealt for Jonathan Sanchez
Lee: Much talked about here. Would've been a solid option, but had a no trade clause if I remember correctly. Power has dissapeared.
Sanchez: I was a big advocate of getting him. Missed oppurtunity on Indians part.

Out of that group, only Sanchez, Lee and Willingham were real options. The other guys were either too expensive or couldn't be had in a trade (Mat Latos was a premier pitcher with Cincy, Sanchez a somewhat inconsistent #4 but with upside (and lefty), and Rizzo's trade just seems like Hoyer taking his favorite player with him). And one just plain sucks.

So what's your point?
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:11 pm

People bitch about Shelley Duncan yet keep bringing up not getting Delmon Young? Duncan is outhitting Young this year and it's not even that close really. Young also makes over 10 times what Duncan does.

Agree mostly with JP here. Most of those guys were either not that gettable or not worth it. I'd put Sanchez in the not worth it category as well. Also not sure Lee was that realistic (flat out won't go to a team on his no-trade, though maybe we aren't on that list). Willingham is the one that appears to have gotten away. Then again, we are just assuming that if we had offered 3 years like the Twins that he'd have come here over Minnesota...
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:53 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:Starting about 1 year ago, the following players have been on the market, (either via trade or FA).

Delmon Young
Yonder Alonso
Anthony Rizzo
Josh Willingham
Yoenis Cespedes
Carlos Pena
Michael Cuddyer
Luke Scott
Melky Cabrera
Carlos Lee
Gabby Sanchez
(yesterday)

Few of these players are high dollar FA.
Any of these names would have helped the Indians.

Congratulations to the GM's of the teams that found a way to make it happen.


Delmon Young: .297 wOBA in 2012, well below average fielder, only once had an ISO over .150 in a full season, $6.75M
Alonso: Has been targeted by people on this board, so-so season, was the main prospect in Mat Latos trade.
Rizzo: Very promising bat, would've liked him, but dealt for Cashner by GM who drafted him and traded for him in SD. Unfair advantage.
Willingham: Indians made him a solid offer, but opted for 3rd year with Twins. Great season, but probably a career year.
Cespedes: Unknown raw Cuban OF'er, signed for $9M a year. Too much of a risk.
Pena: Horrible season. Took a discount to return to old club.
Cuddyer: Having OK season, but at 33-years old and $10.5M a year over 3 seasons not worth it.
Scott: was mentioned here as well, very mediocre season, is a DH and too expensive at $6M
Cabrera: having amazing season, probably a career year (.387 babip), was dealt for Jonathan Sanchez
Lee: Much talked about here. Would've been a solid option, but had a no trade clause if I remember correctly. Power has dissapeared.
Sanchez: I was a big advocate of getting him. Missed oppurtunity on Indians part.

Out of that group, only Sanchez, Lee and Willingham were real options. The other guys were either too expensive or couldn't be had in a trade (Mat Latos was a premier pitcher with Cincy, Sanchez a somewhat inconsistent #4 but with upside (and lefty), and Rizzo's trade just seems like Hoyer taking his favorite player with him). And one just plain sucks.

So what's your point?


The point is - all of these players were on the market. CA probably negotiated with all of them, but was unable to find a way to make it happen with any of them. In the off-season, nobody knew what kind of season they would have.
Are you saying there was no choice? That it was just fate that we pay Casey Kotchman $3 million this season?
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:03 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:Starting about 1 year ago, the following players have been on the market, (either via trade or FA).

Delmon Young
Yonder Alonso
Anthony Rizzo
Josh Willingham
Yoenis Cespedes
Carlos Pena
Michael Cuddyer
Luke Scott
Melky Cabrera
Carlos Lee
Gabby Sanchez
(yesterday)

Few of these players are high dollar FA.
Any of these names would have helped the Indians.

Congratulations to the GM's of the teams that found a way to make it happen.


Delmon Young: .297 wOBA in 2012, well below average fielder, only once had an ISO over .150 in a full season, $6.75M
Alonso: Has been targeted by people on this board, so-so season, was the main prospect in Mat Latos trade.
Rizzo: Very promising bat, would've liked him, but dealt for Cashner by GM who drafted him and traded for him in SD. Unfair advantage.
Willingham: Indians made him a solid offer, but opted for 3rd year with Twins. Great season, but probably a career year.
Cespedes: Unknown raw Cuban OF'er, signed for $9M a year. Too much of a risk.
Pena: Horrible season. Took a discount to return to old club.
Cuddyer: Having OK season, but at 33-years old and $10.5M a year over 3 seasons not worth it.
Scott: was mentioned here as well, very mediocre season, is a DH and too expensive at $6M
Cabrera: having amazing season, probably a career year (.387 babip), was dealt for Jonathan Sanchez
Lee: Much talked about here. Would've been a solid option, but had a no trade clause if I remember correctly. Power has dissapeared.
Sanchez: I was a big advocate of getting him. Missed oppurtunity on Indians part.

Out of that group, only Sanchez, Lee and Willingham were real options. The other guys were either too expensive or couldn't be had in a trade (Mat Latos was a premier pitcher with Cincy, Sanchez a somewhat inconsistent #4 but with upside (and lefty), and Rizzo's trade just seems like Hoyer taking his favorite player with him). And one just plain sucks.

So what's your point?


The point is - all of these players were on the market. CA probably negotiated with all of them, but was unable to find a way to make it happen with any of them. In the off-season, nobody knew what kind of season they would have.
Are you saying there was no choice? That it was just fate that we pay Casey Kotchman $3 million this season?


For Pete sake... do you want CA to do backflips and jumping jacks in front of these guys to entice them to come here? Good grief.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:46 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:Starting about 1 year ago, the following players have been on the market, (either via trade or FA).

Delmon Young
Yonder Alonso
Anthony Rizzo
Josh Willingham
Yoenis Cespedes
Carlos Pena
Michael Cuddyer
Luke Scott
Melky Cabrera
Carlos Lee
Gabby Sanchez
(yesterday)

Few of these players are high dollar FA.
Any of these names would have helped the Indians.

Congratulations to the GM's of the teams that found a way to make it happen.


Delmon Young: .297 wOBA in 2012, well below average fielder, only once had an ISO over .150 in a full season, $6.75M
Alonso: Has been targeted by people on this board, so-so season, was the main prospect in Mat Latos trade.
Rizzo: Very promising bat, would've liked him, but dealt for Cashner by GM who drafted him and traded for him in SD. Unfair advantage.
Willingham: Indians made him a solid offer, but opted for 3rd year with Twins. Great season, but probably a career year.
Cespedes: Unknown raw Cuban OF'er, signed for $9M a year. Too much of a risk.
Pena: Horrible season. Took a discount to return to old club.
Cuddyer: Having OK season, but at 33-years old and $10.5M a year over 3 seasons not worth it.
Scott: was mentioned here as well, very mediocre season, is a DH and too expensive at $6M
Cabrera: having amazing season, probably a career year (.387 babip), was dealt for Jonathan Sanchez
Lee: Much talked about here. Would've been a solid option, but had a no trade clause if I remember correctly. Power has dissapeared.
Sanchez: I was a big advocate of getting him. Missed oppurtunity on Indians part.

Out of that group, only Sanchez, Lee and Willingham were real options. The other guys were either too expensive or couldn't be had in a trade (Mat Latos was a premier pitcher with Cincy, Sanchez a somewhat inconsistent #4 but with upside (and lefty), and Rizzo's trade just seems like Hoyer taking his favorite player with him). And one just plain sucks.

So what's your point?


The point is - all of these players were on the market. CA probably negotiated with all of them, but was unable to find a way to make it happen with any of them. In the off-season, nobody knew what kind of season they would have.
Are you saying there was no choice? That it was just fate that we pay Casey Kotchman $3 million this season?


For Pete sake... do you want CA to do backflips and jumping jacks in front of these guys to entice them to come here? Good grief.


YES. He should do whatever it takes to make a deal he believes in. Maybe the prim and proper Georgetown approach isn't working.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby danh8 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:33 am

Well, the organization by what they have been saying publicly besically feel that the past two seasons have been great successes, and prove that their mode of operation is prospering and successful. They have said that they pick their spots and plan to content about two years every six years. The past two years by being able to be within striking distance at the all star break proves that they have built a strong contender the past two seasons, and now we will start another rebuild where we will look to be pushing .500 arounf the all start break again sometime around 2015 or 2016.

Dolan's saved up and when we needed a few pieces to get over the top they reeled in Sizemore, Lowe, Lopez, Kotchman, Cunningham, and Damon.

Really nothing we should complain about. The past two seasons have been great successes as far as us competing for the World Series.. just appear to be coming up a hair short is all.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:17 am

Yeah, Dan- Rapunzel's hair!!!
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby indians1 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:53 am

The contention of a few year window and breaking things up is an excuse by shapiro and antonetti. Dolan may not be the right owner- not because he doesn't spend enough- but due to his hiring of the wrong guys to run his franchise.

The "blueprint for success" sounds good when you heard it 12 years ago from mark shapiro. The problem is the implementation has been a failure. They said they were going to build through the farm system and focus on pitching.

How many major league- impact pitchers has this organization produced in 12+ years? That is the problem. The white sox have been good because they produce guys buerle, and chris sale, and others.

The twins had a string of how many good seasons in the 2000's. If you don't think a good GM matters and it is the market- just look at tampa since they got new ownership and FO, the twins before and after terry ryan, and now cincinnati with walt jocketty running the show.

Good GM's find a way to get it done and shapiro and his crew have had 12 years and they have failed.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Edible14 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:57 am

indians1 wrote:How many major league- impact pitchers has this organization produced in 12+ years? That is the problem. The white sox have been good because they produce guys buerle, and chris sale, and others.


indians1 wrote:The "blueprint for success" sounds good when you heard it 12 years ago from mark shapiro. The problem is the implementation has been a failure. They said they were going to build through the farm system and focus on pitching.

How many major league- impact pitchers has this organization produced in 12+ years? That is the problem. The white sox have been good because they produce guys buerle, and chris sale, and others.


When Shapiro said that, I think you can say that producing Lee, Sabathia and Westbrook in subsequent years all were good examples of the organization producing good pitchers. The problem was that those three peaked at different times and were forced to leave before they could all come together.

In subsequent years, there is a lot of misfortune that you can't really blame on the F.O. Rondon was a great prospect, and what happened to him was terribly unfortunate (same could be said of Adam Miller). Knapp and Carrasco have been injury cases as well, coming out of the Lee trade. If those two stayed healthy, it's possible we're talking about that trade in a much more positive light. Heck, you could probably add Austin Adams to that list for this year of "what could have been..."

The problem with this team as I see it is that we don't have any top of the line starters. We have some very average starters who have the potential to be very below average. Only two of them have the potential to be above average, and they aren't doing it. If you look at the rotations of the Rangers for the last two years, or of the Cardinals or Giants... it's arguable that none of our pitchers would make the playoff rotations of those teams . Masterson of 2011 might have. Ubaldo of 2009 would have. But, aside from McAllister, no starter on this staff has FIP or xFIP numbers that qualify as "above average". Masterson is average-ish, but Tomlin, Ubaldo, Lowe and Gomez are all poor... the kind of pitcher that you could have one or two of in the rotation and be okay with. You can't be okay with 3/5 of the rotation being those kind of pitchers.

I don't get too angry about the Ubaldo trade because I realize that it actually was a very astute observation by Antonetti at the time: the problem was not the offense, it was the pitching. Yes, it would look better in retrospect to have traded White/Pomeranz for Pence instead, but what this team needed (and still needs) more than anything else is an elite starter. Ubaldo isn't that guy, but he was the only guy on the market last year who might have been. That's why I was rooting for the Indians to trade for Hamels (and not Victorino or Pence) before the Phillies extended him. And I'm not even a fan of Cole Hamels.

And Antonetti saw that the rotation was a big problem this off-season, and he traded for Lowe and Slowey to help fix it (they didn't). So I don't think the guy is completely clueless as to what he's doing. But unfortunately, Justin Masterson went from great to average. Tomlin's wizardry stopped working. Ubaldo went from arguably an above average starter last year to a replacement level pitcher this year. Even Jeanmar Gomez, who wasn't even average to begin with, managed to take a step back and become incredibly awful. I don't think any team can survive the simultaneous regression of every single one of its starters.

Here's a table of what I'm talking about. For each starter, the difference in ERA, WHIP, FIP and xFIP from 2011 to 2012

Starter : dERA : dWHIP : dFIP : dxFIP
Masterson : 1.57 : .16 : .76 : .47
Jimenez: .61 : .21 : 1.61: 1.46
Tomlin: 1.5 : .35 : .62 : .61
Lowe: .47 : .18 : .78: 1.09
Gomez: .71: -.13: 1.02 : 1.0

Note that negative numbers would indicate a positive trend, and note that there's only one of those in that hastily made chart. And there's a lot of big numbers there.

But there's other things perhaps in play there. Perhaps the defense is partially to blame, because ACab and Kipnis are both considered below-average defenders at their positions. We've lost Hannahan for extended periods of time and replaced him with Jose Lopez. We've been playing Michael Brantley in CF, and Johnny Damon in LF. Although, that shouldn't affect FIP and xFIP, which all still point downward for all of our pitchers aside from McAllister (who isn't listed because he only had 17 innnings last year, which is not enough to be relevant). Maybe changing pitching coaches screwed everyone up. Maybe Carlos Santana isn't as good at calling a game as Lou Marson, and him starting at catcher more often has silently made everyone less effective.

In any case, while it's convenient to complain about Willingham or Youkilis not being here, the Indians could be fielding the Yankees lineup right now and they'd still be struggling with their rotation. And the rotation is something that really couldn't have been solved this off-season, or at the trade deadline. Those types of starters have been unavailable or far too expensive. Who really gets the blame for that?
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:25 am

Edible14 wrote:Maybe Carlos Santana isn't as good at calling a game as Lou Marson, and him starting at catcher more often has silently made everyone less effective.

You can cross that one off the list. The pitching staff has been noticeably worse when Marson is behind the plate. The idea that Santana is an inferior catcher should probably be put to rest.

Santana: 70 g, 4.61 ERA, .259/.336/.412. 28% CS
Marson: 43 g, 4.95 ERA, .275/.334/.440. 13% CS
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:20 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Maybe Carlos Santana isn't as good at calling a game as Lou Marson, and him starting at catcher more often has silently made everyone less effective.

You can cross that one off the list. The pitching staff has been noticeably worse when Marson is behind the plate. The idea that Santana is an inferior catcher should probably be put to rest.

Santana: 70 g, 4.61 ERA, .259/.336/.412. 28% CS
Marson: 43 g, 4.95 ERA, .275/.334/.440. 13% CS


Yeah, Santana behind the plate really shouldn't be the issue. You can argue if those numbers really mean much but think they at least show that Santana vs Marson is the reason for the step-back in the pitching (though the pitching was pretty bad last year too).

Sort of related but Santana has actually been a solid overall catcher dating back to last year even. If you buy into beyondtheboxscores catcher ratings, Santana ranked 16th out of the 30 starting catchers in the majors last year and 11th out of the 21 that played enough to reach 3000 plate appearances behind the dish. His +/- was a dead average 0. Won't be winning any gold gloves but a guy who is becoming a solid catcher overall. Still think he could be moved off catcher sometime if needed but definitely not hurting the team at all back there.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:34 pm

Edible14 wrote:
indians1 wrote:How many major league- impact pitchers has this organization produced in 12+ years? That is the problem. The white sox have been good because they produce guys buerle, and chris sale, and others.


When Shapiro said that, I think you can say that producing Lee, Sabathia and Westbrook in subsequent years all were good examples of the organization producing good pitchers. The problem was that those three peaked at different times and were forced to leave before they could all come together.

In subsequent years, there is a lot of misfortune that you can't really blame on the F.O. Rondon was a great prospect, and what happened to him was terribly unfortunate (same could be said of Adam Miller). Knapp and Carrasco have been injury cases as well, coming out of the Lee trade. If those two stayed healthy, it's possible we're talking about that trade in a much more positive light. Heck, you could probably add Austin Adams to that list for this year of "what could have been..."

The problem with this team as I see it is that we don't have any top of the line starters. We have some very average starters who have the potential to be very below average. Only two of them have the potential to be above average, and they aren't doing it. If you look at the rotations of the Rangers for the last two years, or of the Cardinals or Giants... it's arguable that none of our pitchers would make the playoff rotations of those teams . Masterson of 2011 might have. Ubaldo of 2009 would have. But, aside from McAllister, no starter on this staff has FIP or xFIP numbers that qualify as "above average". Masterson is average-ish, but Tomlin, Ubaldo, Lowe and Gomez are all poor... the kind of pitcher that you could have one or two of in the rotation and be okay with. You can't be okay with 3/5 of the rotation being those kind of pitchers.

I don't get too angry about the Ubaldo trade because I realize that it actually was a very astute observation by Antonetti at the time: the problem was not the offense, it was the pitching. Yes, it would look better in retrospect to have traded White/Pomeranz for Pence instead, but what this team needed (and still needs) more than anything else is an elite starter. Ubaldo isn't that guy, but he was the only guy on the market last year who might have been. That's why I was rooting for the Indians to trade for Hamels (and not Victorino or Pence) before the Phillies extended him. And I'm not even a fan of Cole Hamels.

And Antonetti saw that the rotation was a big problem this off-season, and he traded for Lowe and Slowey to help fix it (they didn't). So I don't think the guy is completely clueless as to what he's doing. But unfortunately, Justin Masterson went from great to average. Tomlin's wizardry stopped working. Ubaldo went from arguably an above average starter last year to a replacement level pitcher this year. Even Jeanmar Gomez, who wasn't even average to begin with, managed to take a step back and become incredibly awful. I don't think any team can survive the simultaneous regression of every single one of its starters.

In any case, while it's convenient to complain about Willingham or Youkilis not being here, the Indians could be fielding the Yankees lineup right now and they'd still be struggling with their rotation. And the rotation is something that really couldn't have been solved this off-season, or at the trade deadline. Those types of starters have been unavailable or far too expensive. Who really gets the blame for that?


Agree with most of what you're saying here, and I've been saying similar things for over a year now. The rotation last year was way below average (as you pointed out, only Masterson was above average). This year only McAllister is and he hasn't pitched enough to really make much of an impact.

After last night's game, the Indians are now in DEAD LAST in the AL in team ERA and only are beating the god awful Rockies in all of Major League baseball. As you said, doesn't matter who you got as a RH bat, this team can't win with a pitching staff this incredibly terrible. I question whether having a offense similar to the 1999 team scoring 1000 runs if this team is would even be a World Series contender...with this pitching staff I highly doubt it.

I said before, but my biggest issue with Antonetti's winter was not going harder after a guy like Edwin Jackson, especially after reports that he was willing to take a 1 year deal (and ultimately did). If you were willing to dole out $12-$13M for a guy like Beltran, why not go after the still young and very effective/durable starting pitcher in Jackson? Had AL Central experience each of the previous 3 seasons (2009 Detroit and last 2 with the ChiSox) and pitched pretty darn well. Averaging around 200 innings a season the last few years. Tribe MUST get someone similar to that this winter either via trade or free agency or you might as well blow up the team IMO.

The offense needs some help for sure (now 9th in the AL in runs per game)...but pitching is still the #1 thing that needs fixing.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Maybe Carlos Santana isn't as good at calling a game as Lou Marson, and him starting at catcher more often has silently made everyone less effective.

You can cross that one off the list. The pitching staff has been noticeably worse when Marson is behind the plate. The idea that Santana is an inferior catcher should probably be put to rest.

Santana: 70 g, 4.61 ERA, .259/.336/.412. 28% CS
Marson: 43 g, 4.95 ERA, .275/.334/.440. 13% CS


Yeah, Santana behind the plate really shouldn't be the issue. You can argue if those numbers really mean much but think they at least show that Santana vs Marson is the reason for the step-back in the pitching (though the pitching was pretty bad last year too).

Sort of related but Santana has actually been a solid overall catcher dating back to last year even. If you buy into beyondtheboxscores catcher ratings, Santana ranked 16th out of the 30 starting catchers in the majors last year and 11th out of the 21 that played enough to reach 3000 plate appearances behind the dish. His +/- was a dead average 0. Won't be winning any gold gloves but a guy who is becoming a solid catcher overall. Still think he could be moved off catcher sometime if needed but definitely not hurting the team at all back there.


This could be a bit too simple, but our pitchers just blow. At least when they're dishing out blowouts before the 4th.

Hope Kluber feels strong tonight, cause if he sucks or not, he's going to be out there a while.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Edible14 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:44 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I said before, but my biggest issue with Antonetti's winter was not going harder after a guy like Edwin Jackson, especially after reports that he was willing to take a 1 year deal (and ultimately did). If you were willing to dole out $12-$13M for a guy like Beltran, why not go after the still young and very effective/durable starting pitcher in Jackson? Had AL Central experience each of the previous 3 seasons (2009 Detroit and last 2 with the ChiSox) and pitched pretty darn well. Averaging around 200 innings a season the last few years. Tribe MUST get someone similar to that this winter either via trade or free agency or you might as well blow up the team IMO.

The offense needs some help for sure (now 9th in the AL in runs per game)...but pitching is still the #1 thing that needs fixing.


Jackson would have been nice, though $11M for one starter with a history of inconsistency is a gamble I don't think I would have been comfortable making. And given our inability to get our current starters under control, it's likely that Edwin wouldn't even be pitching as well here. But I think the larger point in my post was that the pitching really should not have been expected to be this bad. Even if you thought Masterson's year was a fluke, he should have at least stayed above average. Believe it or not, Ubaldo Jimenez qualifies as an above average pitcher last year (it shocked me too). This year... he's basically no better than sending David Huff out there. Tomlin's regression was at least somewhat predicted. Most statisticians wouldn't have predicted that Lowe would get worse (when the advanced stats said he should be better than his stats indicate). Even Gomez got worse, and he wasn't good to begin with. I don't think anyone could have expected the pitching rotation to all take that simultaneous step back (and in some cases - leap back).

And yes, that Santana thing was me just throwing something out there. I really don't think Santana is the root cause. The point is that it's quite the conundrum, and there don't look to be any easy fixes. I really don't think bringing Tim Belcher back (even if he would do it), would solve things. The point is that these are holes that really can't be easily fixed by the Indians. The best chance for them to be filled is if Masterson and/or Ubaldo actually start pitching well.
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Re: Chris Antonetti is in over his head.

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:05 pm

Edible14 wrote:Jackson would have been nice, though $11M for one starter with a history of inconsistency is a gamble I don't think I would have been comfortable making. And given our inability to get our current starters under control, it's likely that Edwin wouldn't even be pitching as well here. But I think the larger point in my post was that the pitching really should not have been expected to be this bad. Even if you thought Masterson's year was a fluke, he should have at least stayed above average. Believe it or not, Ubaldo Jimenez qualifies as an above average pitcher last year (it shocked me too). This year... he's basically no better than sending David Huff out there. Tomlin's regression was at least somewhat predicted. Most statisticians wouldn't have predicted that Lowe would get worse (when the advanced stats said he should be better than his stats indicate). Even Gomez got worse, and he wasn't good to begin with. I don't think anyone could have expected the pitching rotation to all take that simultaneous step back (and in some cases - leap back).

And yes, that Santana thing was me just throwing something out there. I really don't think Santana is the root cause. The point is that it's quite the conundrum, and there don't look to be any easy fixes. I really don't think bringing Tim Belcher back (even if he would do it), would solve things. The point is that these are holes that really can't be easily fixed by the Indians. The best chance for them to be filled is if Masterson and/or Ubaldo actually start pitching well.


Agree to disagree on Jackson I guess. a 1yr/$11M deal was a bargain for a guy like Jackson who really hasn't been inconsistent of late other than a rough patch in AZ. Thrown over 180 innings each of the previous 4 seasons heading into this season with ERA+ of 100, 125, 95, and 108. fWAR the previous 3 were 3.6, 3.8, and 3.8 (FIP never higher than 4.3). His "value" was put over $15M each of the previous 3 seasons as well (if you buy into that). Thought Washington got one of the best bargains of the off-season when they signed him. He's also still only 28.

I agree the pitching shouldn't have been expected to be this bad, but it was the biggest concern coming into the season. Even Shapiro when asked before opening day admitted that the pitching needed needed to step up if we wanted a shot at competing this season. As far as Ubaldo being above average last year, guess it depends what metric you go by. ERA+ had him at 92 last year (and only 77 with the Tribe, vs 72 so far this year), which put him below average in that regard. Definitely no ultimate stat/metric to go by though. Agree 100% with that last statement. We needed/need Masterson and Ubaldo to pitch like top of the rotation guys.

Think you could have expected Lowe to be a bit rough given his age, though never thought he'd end up tanking this bad, especially after the start he had. Agree on Tomlin, was expecting this though hoping for the best. At least McAllister has stepped up to this point. Really need him to keep pitching well (yesterday's rough outing aside). We are really gonna need Carrasco to come back strong....and hell, actually really, really looking forward to seeing Carmona/Hernandez take the hill, wihch is kinda a scary thought...
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