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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:48 am

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE:

Thus far the offseason the Tribe has added a slew of former ML bullpen arms and several OF with ML exp. to boot.

The Tribe has added...
Derek Lowe -RHSP PLUS ($10 mil.) from the Braves,
Kevin Slowey -RHSP PLUS ($1.25 mil.) from the Rockies,
and Aaron Cunningham -OF from the Padres, all through trades.

The Tribe has lost...
#55 the pitcher formerly known as Fausto Carmona likely for the season,
Hector Rondon likely for the season and,
Carlos Carrasco for the season, (both) to injury,
Chris Jones -LHRP in the Lowe deal,
Cory Burns -RHRP in the Cunningham deal,
Josh Judy -RHRP via waivers (see the Cunningham deal),
Marty Popham -RHRP via Rule 5 to the Twins,
and Zach Putnam -RHRP in the Slowey deal.

That's a lot of pitching depth gone. Couple that with the trade of Alex White, Drew Pomeranz and Joe Gardner in the Ubaldo Jimenez deal and that's a tremendous amount of pitching talent suddenly gone. I know the Tribe feels heavy with pitching, but there is simply never enough pitching in a minor league org. The season hasn't even started yet and the org. pitching depth has taken a blow.

The overall offseason has been uninspiring, while I didn't believe the Tribe would shake the world with a Prince Fielder signing, the Tribe has yet to add that bat that will make this lineup something to deal with. If the Tribe is to be true contenders this season, they must be counting on the health of their everyday lineup plus a unforeseen addition. Truth be told the loss of Carmona does nothing, in that his replacement is likely to put up similar numbers as Carmona has. Where it really hurt(s) the Tribe is that $7 million could've been allocated elsewhere. If Carmona returns, okay he was worth the risk, but if he doesn't and he likely won't the Tribe will have been handicapped by not having that $7 mil to spend on bringing in a bat that could help the lineup or even another SP to the rotation.

Where the Tribe has somewhat succeeded this offseason, or at least in my mind is in the addition of upper level (AAA) depth in the likes of several signings of the likes of Felix Pie, Fred Lewis, Ryan Spilborghs, Jose Lopez, Andy LaRoche, Chin-lung Hu, Matt Pagnozzi, Chris Ray, Jeremy Accardo, Robinson Tejada, and Chris Seddon.Truth be told a cpl of these guys could break camp with the big club, just saying look for this years version of Jack Hannahan, a spot player that can help the bench or bullpen is most likely. None of these signings are awe inspiring but the simple fact is this org. lacked the depth that it needed last season and by adding to the upper the level talent, the Tribe will have some reinforcements to call upon in the time of need.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:56 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE:

Thus far the offseason the Tribe has added a slew of former ML bullpen arms and several OF with ML exp. to boot.

The Tribe has added...
Derek Lowe -RHSP PLUS ($10 mil.) from the Braves,
Kevin Slowey -RHSP PLUS ($1.25 mil.) from the Rockies,
and Aaron Cunningham -OF from the Padres, all through trades.

The Tribe has lost...
#55 the pitcher formerly known as Fausto Carmona likely for the season,
Hector Rondon likely for the season and,
Carlos Carrasco for the season, (both) to injury,
Chris Jones -LHRP in the Lowe deal,
Cory Burns -RHRP in the Cunningham deal,
Josh Judy -RHRP via waivers (see the Cunningham deal),
Marty Popham -RHRP via Rule 5 to the Twins,
and Zach Putnam -RHRP in the Slowey deal.

That's a lot of pitching depth gone. Couple that with the trade of Alex White, Drew Pomeranz and Joe Gardner in the Ubaldo Jimenez deal and that's a tremendous amount of pitching talent suddenly gone. I know the Tribe feels heavy with pitching, but there is simply never enough pitching in a minor league org. The season hasn't even started yet and the org. pitching depth has taken a blow.

The overall offseason has been uninspiring, while I didn't believe the Tribe would shake the world with a Prince Fielder signing, the Tribe has yet to add that bat that will make this lineup something to deal with. If the Tribe is to be true contenders this season, they must be counting on the health of their everyday lineup plus a unforeseen addition. Truth be told the loss of Carmona does nothing, in that his replacement is likely to put up similar numbers as Carmona has. Where it really hurt(s) the Tribe is that $7 million could've been allocated elsewhere. If Carmona returns, okay he was worth the risk, but if he doesn't and he likely won't the Tribe will have been handicapped by not having that $7 mil to spend on bringing in a bat that could help the lineup or even another SP to the rotation.

Where the Tribe has somewhat succeeded this offseason, or at least in my mind is in the addition of upper level (AAA) depth in the likes of several signings of the likes of Felix Pie, Fred Lewis, Ryan Spilborghs, Jose Lopez, Andy LaRoche, Chin-lung Hu, Matt Pagnozzi, Chris Ray, Jeremy Accardo, Robinson Tejada, and Chris Seddon.Truth be told a cpl of these guys could break camp with the big club, just saying look for this years version of Jack Hannahan, a spot player that can help the bench or bullpen is most likely. None of these signings are awe inspiring but the simple fact is this org. lacked the depth that it needed last season and by adding to the upper the level talent, the Tribe will have some reinforcements to call upon in the time of need.


Nice post and a good summary.

I'm going to take a deep breath and say our SP should be slightly better than last season. Lowe and Slowey should be able to at least match what Carmona/Heredia and Carrasco did last year. It's had to judge what Carrasco would have added this year had he stayed healthy. I'm hoping Lowe will be a good influence on the young pitchers. Sometimes it's good to be next to a vet who's been there, done that.

The bullpen remains unchanged, other than Durbin. Some of the minor league deapth is gone, but the top prospects like CC Lee remain.

The safety net in signing Sizemore appears to be all these OF that are spring training invitees. Most of them can play CF.

But have we gotten better? Only if we can stay healthy and some people, (Choo, Sizemoe, Ubaldo) return to form.

We have been unable to address a lack of punch. We took a swing and missed at Beltran and Pena. I think the best of what's left, (other than Trumbo) would be Carlos Lee. He's a good RBI guy, and we should now be able to pay half his salary when we put Fausto/Roberto on the restricted list. I worry about the player we would have to give up for him though.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:37 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
petes999 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:From Jon Morosi on Twitter

Source: #Indians acquire Kevin Slowey from #Rockies for Zach Putnam.


Kind of shows you how desperate we are to replace Carmona ... the value of Slowey went from a non-prospect to a top-10 prospect (per BA). I know the Indians want a veteran as they assume we will be in the title hunt. Yet, Twins dumped him for a nobody for a reason.

"Now that the Rule 5 draft is over the player to be named later has been revealed as Double-A right-hander Daniel Turpen, a side-arming reliever who’s a marginal prospect at best"


I doubt Kevin Slowey is the type of pitcher you aquire to help win a title. The more I think about this the more confusing it gets and the more I don't like it. It would be different if he had options or was on a minor league contract.

Counting options is not my strong point but it looks to me like he has another option, Chip. I have considered Slowey a BOR pitcher, much like Tomlin. There are similarities but, IMO, Tomlin has better command of less impressive pitches. If we lose the pitcher formerly known as Fausto for the season and Tomlin does not heal well, the Indians might be happy with Slowey as his replacement in the rotation. As I said earlier, not a big fan of the deal because I believe Putnam was destined to be a late inning stopper with some more experience. :pleasantry:


If Slowey does have an option remaining it makes the deal alot more palatable for me. What made the deal confusing is Lowe was traded for to anchor the back of the rotation. I hope this doesn't mean Slowey moves into Tomlin's 4 hole if he can't start the season. Good insurance if he has an option, bad trade if he doesn't.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:06 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE:

Thus far the offseason the Tribe has added a slew of former ML bullpen arms and several OF with ML exp. to boot.

The Tribe has added...
Derek Lowe -RHSP PLUS ($10 mil.) from the Braves,
Kevin Slowey -RHSP PLUS ($1.25 mil.) from the Rockies,
and Aaron Cunningham -OF from the Padres, all through trades.

The Tribe has lost...
#55 the pitcher formerly known as Fausto Carmona likely for the season,
Hector Rondon likely for the season and,
Carlos Carrasco for the season, (both) to injury,
Chris Jones -LHRP in the Lowe deal,
Cory Burns -RHRP in the Cunningham deal,
Josh Judy -RHRP via waivers (see the Cunningham deal),
Marty Popham -RHRP via Rule 5 to the Twins,
and Zach Putnam -RHRP in the Slowey deal.

That's a lot of pitching depth gone. Couple that with the trade of Alex White, Drew Pomeranz and Joe Gardner in the Ubaldo Jimenez deal and that's a tremendous amount of pitching talent suddenly gone. I know the Tribe feels heavy with pitching, but there is simply never enough pitching in a minor league org. The season hasn't even started yet and the org. pitching depth has taken a blow.

The overall offseason has been uninspiring, while I didn't believe the Tribe would shake the world with a Prince Fielder signing, the Tribe has yet to add that bat that will make this lineup something to deal with. If the Tribe is to be true contenders this season, they must be counting on the health of their everyday lineup plus a unforeseen addition. Truth be told the loss of Carmona does nothing, in that his replacement is likely to put up similar numbers as Carmona has. Where it really hurt(s) the Tribe is that $7 million could've been allocated elsewhere. If Carmona returns, okay he was worth the risk, but if he doesn't and he likely won't the Tribe will have been handicapped by not having that $7 mil to spend on bringing in a bat that could help the lineup or even another SP to the rotation.

Where the Tribe has somewhat succeeded this offseason, or at least in my mind is in the addition of upper level (AAA) depth in the likes of several signings of the likes of Felix Pie, Fred Lewis, Ryan Spilborghs, Jose Lopez, Andy LaRoche, Chin-lung Hu, Matt Pagnozzi, Chris Ray, Jeremy Accardo, Robinson Tejada, and Chris Seddon.Truth be told a cpl of these guys could break camp with the big club, just saying look for this years version of Jack Hannahan, a spot player that can help the bench or bullpen is most likely. None of these signings are awe inspiring but the simple fact is this org. lacked the depth that it needed last season and by adding to the upper the level talent, the Tribe will have some reinforcements to call upon in the time of need.


Nice post and a good summary.

I'm going to take a deep breath and say our SP should be slightly better than last season. Lowe and Slowey should be able to at least match what Carmona/Heredia and Carrasco did last year. It's had to judge what Carrasco would have added this year had he stayed healthy. I'm hoping Lowe will be a good influence on the young pitchers. Sometimes it's good to be next to a vet who's been there, done that.

The bullpen remains unchanged, other than Durbin. Some of the minor league deapth is gone, but the top prospects like CC Lee remain.

The safety net in signing Sizemore appears to be all these OF that are spring training invitees. Most of them can play CF.

But have we gotten better? Only if we can stay healthy and some people, (Choo, Sizemoe, Ubaldo) return to form.

We have been unable to address a lack of punch. We took a swing and missed at Beltran and Pena. I think the best of what's left, (other than Trumbo) would be Carlos Lee. He's a good RBI guy, and we should now be able to pay half his salary when we put Fausto/Roberto on the restricted list. I worry about the player we would have to give up for him though.

Nicely written posts IMO. I would add that no analysis of the pitching changes would be complete without a look at the returnees from the DL. Although Rondon was a setback, there are three scheduled returns, Salazar, Perez and Knapp which could make a big difference in the SP depth. Knapp is not as advanced in his rehab as Salazar and Perez who are throwing pretty well but is still expected to pitch in 2012. No one knows for sure until they pitch for real but I would not overlook them either. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:11 pm

I actually thought about adding the walking wounded component to that post, it was written off the cuff... Not planned just a few Saturday (away from work) thoughts on the Tribe.

Jason Knapp is a high end arm. Knapp often an after thought now, bc of down time has youth and an extreme hard work ethic to his advantage. The question is does all this untapped potential finally see the field and stay on it. Knapp has an electric FB, but he could be another shldr injury away from working at the local grocery. Potential-wise Knapp could still develop into a real workhorse down the road, maybe he becomes a serviceable bullpen arm or like so many others, his career is derailed by injury. Jason Knapp certainly doesn't lack potential, yet 2012 likely reveals what Knapp's future holds.

Hector Rondon has been a favorite of mine for sometime. Rondon is already down for 6 mths, maybe more of this season bc of a fracture in his pitching elbow, which occurred while he was trying to get some mileage on his arm after having missed most of '11 due to TJ surgery. Rondon, is definitely a tough luck case, as he worked his tail off to get back from TJ surgery only to get a gut punch in the form of a line drive off his elbow. Don't expect much if anything from Rondon in 2012, still Rondon had the talent and ability that landed him on the Tribes 40 man roster, I'm cheering Rondon on, but his future is really in the shadows right now.

Alexander Perez, like Rondon is on the recovery trail from TJ. Perez like Knapp, and Rondon is a very talented arm, not so much so as the former two but nonetheless has the potential to pitch his way into the majors. Unlike Knapp and Rondon, Perez is more of a pitcher. In all, these three (two) arms could be more important to the depth of the system than we know.

Finally, and certainly not the least of these arms is recent 40 man add Danny Salazar. Salazar has a mid to upper 90's type FB and could develop into a very nice piece down the line. Quite obviously the Tribe feels Salazar has the talent to make it to the bigs in a hurry, this year however, will be a re-building yr for Salazar as he returns to form.

Overall, any of these arms could still develop into impact arms for the Tribe, there are obvious and legitimate concerns about each of them and particularly Rondon and Knapp, nonetheless if any of these arms can shake off the injuries, they could potentially become impact arms down the line.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:45 pm

The Tribe has apparently signed (per mlbtraderumors.com) 36 yr old SS Julio Lugo to a minor league deal with a ST invite.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:44 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I actually thought about adding the walking wounded component to that post, it was written off the cuff... Not planned just a few Saturday (away from work) thoughts on the Tribe.

Jason Knapp is a high end arm. Knapp often an after thought now, bc of down time has youth and an extreme hard work ethic to his advantage. The question is does all this untapped potential finally see the field and stay on it. Knapp has an electric FB, but he could be another shldr injury away from working at the local grocery. Potential-wise Knapp could still develop into a real workhorse down the road, maybe he becomes a serviceable bullpen arm or like so many others, his career is derailed by injury. Jason Knapp certainly doesn't lack potential, yet 2012 likely reveals what Knapp's future holds.

Hector Rondon has been a favorite of mine for sometime. Rondon is already down for 6 mths, maybe more of this season bc of a fracture in his pitching elbow, which occurred while he was trying to get some mileage on his arm after having missed most of '11 due to TJ surgery. Rondon, is definitely a tough luck case, as he worked his tail off to get back from TJ surgery only to get a gut punch in the form of a line drive off his elbow. Don't expect much if anything from Rondon in 2012, still Rondon had the talent and ability that landed him on the Tribes 40 man roster, I'm cheering Rondon on, but his future is really in the shadows right now.

Alexander Perez, like Rondon is on the recovery trail from TJ. Perez like Knapp, and Rondon is a very talented arm, not so much so as the former two but nonetheless has the potential to pitch his way into the majors. Unlike Knapp and Rondon, Perez is more of a pitcher. In all, these three (two) arms could be more important to the depth of the system than we know.

Finally, and certainly not the least of these arms is recent 40 man add Danny Salazar. Salazar has a mid to upper 90's type FB and could develop into a very nice piece down the line. Quite obviously the Tribe feels Salazar has the talent to make it to the bigs in a hurry, this year however, will be a re-building yr for Salazar as he returns to form.

Overall, any of these arms could still develop into impact arms for the Tribe, there are obvious and legitimate concerns about each of them and particularly Rondon and Knapp, nonetheless if any of these arms can shake off the injuries, they could potentially become impact arms down the line.

As I said, I enjoyed your post. Perez and Salazar are on my mind since I got a chance to see each throw in a trip to Arizona. I only got to watch 30-35 pitches off the mound for both but the differences from pre-injury were very noticeable to me. Huge fan of Perez because of his potential for 2 plus secondary pitches. His fastball used to sit in the high 80s but now is low 90s from what I saw and I still think there is some projection. Salazar's fastball was clocked in mid 90s with movement and looks like it can go higher. His mechanics look improved to me. Right now, the only pitchers on the roster that throw noticeably harder are Stowell and Haley IMO. Did not see Knapp throw but I do not like his mechanics or secondary pitches as well even though his fastball likely has a higher ceiling from prior looks. All three of these pitchers look like they could be TOR candidates to me with health and development. They could really alter the organization pitching dynamic in my view. Just my thoughts. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:33 pm

The Tribe has signed Dan Wheeler -RHRP to a minor league deal.

This is a value signing IMO and probably a front runner go make the bullpen out of spring. With the news the Tribe has placed #55 on the restricted list, I think we will see the Tribe push for Kotchman, Harden, Jackson, Oswalt.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:41 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe has signed Dan Wheeler -RHRP to a minor league deal.

This is a value signing IMO and probably a front runner go make the bullpen out of spring. With the news the Tribe has placed #55 on the restricted list, I think we will see the Tribe push for Kotchman, Harden, Jackson, Oswalt.


Would be thrilled to see the Indians and Oswalt come together on a 1 year deal, and I've always felt Harden is the type of pitcher that the Indians could bring in thats looking to have a solid rebound year or get a deal with easily reachable incentives. Still not sure either happens at all or even have any interest in Cleveland.

Can't see Jackson not taking a multiyear deal from the O's or the Period Sox.

Wouldn't be thrilled with Kotchman but I believe he can easily be had...if the Indians want him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:43 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe has signed Dan Wheeler -RHRP to a minor league deal.

This is a value signing IMO and probably a front runner go make the bullpen out of spring. With the news the Tribe has placed #55 on the restricted list, I think we will see the Tribe push for Kotchman, Harden, Jackson, Oswalt.


Would be thrilled to see the Indians and Oswalt come together on a 1 year deal, and I've always felt Harden is the type of pitcher that the Indians could bring in thats looking to have a solid year to have a rebound year or get a deal with easily reachable incentives. Still not sure either happens at all or even have any interest in Cleveland.

Can't see Jackson not taking a multiyear deal from the O's or the Period Sox.

Wouldn't be thrilled with Kotchman but I believe he can easily be had...if the Indians want him.


Yeah, really looking at it the only way it sounds we could possibly get Jackson is if we offered him a 3 year deal but gave him an opt out after 1. Would be incentive to come to Cleveland and then leave if he wants, while still giving him security if he bombed this year. Still though...I'd consider such a deal (would almost be the same as Carmona's deal).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:28 pm

So the Indians sign Dan Wheeler to a minor league deal. Wheeler was offered arbitration by the Red Sox and declined. (Wheeler might be agent shopping now). It was not a major league deal so Boston gets no compensation. Think there's a "wink-wink" deal going on. I can't imagine he would make the MLB minimum if he makes the club out of ST.
The Indians now have 9 non-roster ST invitees that are pitchers.

With Carmona / Heredia on the restricted list, the roster is now at 39.

Does anybody smell a trade of bullpen help in the works?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:07 pm

Wait, so even if he makes the club out of spring training, the Red Sox don't get compensation?

I imagine that the Indians will probably use Hernandez/Carmona's roster spot on a free agent signing either at 1B or SP. Whatever reliever they add from the NRI pile will probably be taking Carrasco's spot when he goes on the 60 day DL.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:33 pm

I really like that Cleveland has multiple sports talk stations again. Driving home from work tonight I started hearing that K Morales is making good progress and to be honest I would rather take a flyer on him then signing Kotchman.

I think it would be interesting to see what that cost for Morales would be.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:46 pm

Edible14 wrote:Wait, so even if he makes the club out of spring training, the Red Sox don't get compensation?

I imagine that the Indians will probably use Hernandez/Carmona's roster spot on a free agent signing either at 1B or SP. Whatever reliever they add from the NRI pile will probably be taking Carrasco's spot when he goes on the 60 day DL.

It is true the Red Sox get no compensation. IMO, a healthy Wheeler makes the Indian relief corps even better. A veteran presence in this young pen could make it more formidable in 2012. I would think it would make the loss of the fringier RP prospects along with Putnam much easier to accept for 2012. This deal makes it much easier for me to understand the Slowey/Putnam trade. I know I won't be popular for this opinion but I am beginning to like Cleveland's offseason moves much better as we progress. This is a much deeper franchise than it was last year and better prepared to sustain another injury onslaught from what I see. Some payroll has been freed up to take advantage of opportunities now through the trade deadline. And there is no impact to the clearing of payroll at the end of 2012 which was huge to me. If some fans show up this year, Cleveland could have close to $30M freed up from this years payroll which can be used to extend current players or add some improvement. I am not prepared to give the Indians an A grade but this looks like a solid B to me. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:09 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:With Carmona / Heredia on the restricted list, the roster is now at 39.

Does anybody smell a trade of bullpen help in the works?


Definitely possible a move is coming. Personally if nothing is done at 1B here I wouldn't mind seeing the Indians place a claim on Cardenas. Sort of a lefty version of Donald but is versatile and can hit both lefties and righties (at AAA at least) putting up an OPS 90 higher against lefties this past year. Has 2 options left (I believe?) and would be a decent depth option to at least take a look at this spring imo. A utility guy at best now, but liked him when he was with the Phillies.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:06 am

MadThinker88 wrote:I really like that Cleveland has multiple sports talk stations again. Driving home from work tonight I started hearing that K Morales is making good progress and to be honest I would rather take a flyer on him then signing Kotchman.

I think it would be interesting to see what that cost for Morales would be.


Morales may become an option this spring. The Indians won't trade for him until they can scout him and see him in games first and get more clarity on his medical.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:49 am

MadThinker88 wrote:I really like that Cleveland has multiple sports talk stations again. Driving home from work tonight I started hearing that K Morales is making good progress and to be honest I would rather take a flyer on him then signing Kotchman.

I think it would be interesting to see what that cost for Morales would be.


Mad... there was a blurb posted through Halo's Hangout where Mike Trout or Peter Bourjos was quoted as saying that Kendrys Morales was hitting from both sides and was belting them out of the park going to the opposite field. It sure is starting to look like K-Meaux is finally making strides toward returning to ML readiness..

The Angels missed out on Coco Cordero. Passed on some of the other FA closers.. and are still planning on going with Jordan Walden as their closer (story about Walden working on off speed pitches was quaint). The latest additions further strengthens the pen..and does provide even more depth as it relates to a possible trade... While it would be wise to wait to see if K-Meaux has it back, it would also invite competition for his services. It may be time for the risk averse Indians throw caution to the wind?.. maybe not..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:58 am

I have a hard time seeing the Angels dealing Morales at this moment. He just signed a new contract and perhaps they feel some loyalty towards him mkaing his return with the Halos.

That said, I'd love to have him and would certainly deal one of our non-Pestano/Hagadone bullpen arms for him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:11 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Angels dealing Morales at this moment. He just signed a new contract and perhaps they feel some loyalty towards him mkaing his return with the Halos.

That said, I'd love to have him and would certainly deal one of our non-Pestano/Hagadone bullpen arms for him.


Very likely that the Angels hold on to him, but I don't think him signing a contract really will have much bearing on their decision. He was arby eligible and they offered it to him....so the fact that he just signed a 1-year deal really was just a formality. May make him more tradeable as the team getitng him doesn't have to worry about going to arby with him.

Does seem like it's smarter for them to at least wait til he gets some games in though. Value is extremely low right now but if he shows he can play 1B and still hit even half as well as he did pre-injury then his value goes up. Their willingness to deal him could also depend on Trumbo's health. If Trumbo is unable to go early or can't play 3B...they could try Pujols at 3B and Morales at 1B for a bit....crazy? Sure maybe a little...but I'd rather see Pujols play 3B than Miggy Cabrera....


As far as value...will depend on how Morales looks in ST games. Right now, I'd deal DLC...but that's about it. Maybe Hermann. If he looks healthy this spring with no complications, maybe you up it to Raffy but missing over a year and a half....he worries me.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:46 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Angels dealing Morales at this moment. He just signed a new contract and perhaps they feel some loyalty towards him mkaing his return with the Halos.

That said, I'd love to have him and would certainly deal one of our non-Pestano/Hagadone bullpen arms for him.


With the signings of Wheeler and Ray, the team has guys with experience closing in the past. I think the Indians would be reticent to trade C. Perez and go to Pestano with no backup plan and those signings (experienced) may be part of the backup plan (which would make it easier to trade C.Perez.) Now I think it will take more to get Morales than that but you could throw in a KDLC, Salazar, McAllister, or Gomez (depending on how the trade is negotiated.)
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:59 pm

daingean wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Angels dealing Morales at this moment. He just signed a new contract and perhaps they feel some loyalty towards him mkaing his return with the Halos.

That said, I'd love to have him and would certainly deal one of our non-Pestano/Hagadone bullpen arms for him.


With the signings of Wheeler and Ray, the team has guys with experience closing in the past. I think the Indians would be reticent to trade C. Perez and go to Pestano with no backup plan and those signings (experienced) may be part of the backup plan (which would make it easier to trade C.Perez.) Now I think it will take more to get Morales than that but you could throw in a KDLC, Salazar, McAllister, or Gomez (depending on how the trade is negotiated.)


I'd probably break my computer if McAllister or Gomez were throwins to a Morales deal. Guy was great in 2009 but that was his only good year and now missing 1.5+ seasons? He's as big a question mark as Grady if not more (at least Grady has been able to make it back to regular season games). CP straight up for Morales is too much even with CP's lackluster year (and salary). Morales would have to absolutely be on fire during the spring to even be worth Gomez (who I am not even a big fan of) or McAllister by themselves. Think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves here. Even if the reports are 100% accurate that he's hitting well in batting practice...lets see how his TIMING at the plate is after missing so much of the past 2 years. I know Aaron Boone wasn't the same caliber of hitter at their peaks, but we saw how much he struggled getting that aspect back after missing just 1 season with that knee injury.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:08 pm

Hermie13 wrote: As far as value...will depend on how Morales looks in ST games. Right now, I'd deal DLC...but that's about it. Maybe Hermann. If he looks healthy this spring with no complications, maybe you up it to Raffy but missing over a year and a half....he worries me.


I completely understand the worry you express but a I wrote earlier - I prefer the flyer I take on Morales (even by cost of trade) then the flyer to improve by sitting tight (where the Tribe is today) or the flyer of signing one of the remaining free agents.

I also understand the idea of waiting to see how Morales is in spring training before pulling any trigger. One might be paying for an empty uniform. Sadly the reason to deal now was already pointed out. If Morales is seen mashing in ST then everyone will be in on him and the cost is thru the roof.

This is where the GM earns the money he gets paid. Make tough decisions and run a few risks (within reason). Besides bullpen 'depth' the Tribe is also overstocked on utility guys. Perhaps a 2 for 1 deal can be made. Each of our players is lower in value but combined its a good enough move for the Halos to jump. Since Cord Phelps was from out there, there might be some interest on the Halos part (unless it would cause Hermie to smash his computer) :friends:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Angels dealing Morales at this moment. He just signed a new contract and perhaps they feel some loyalty towards him mkaing his return with the Halos.

That said, I'd love to have him and would certainly deal one of our non-Pestano/Hagadone bullpen arms for him.


With the signings of Wheeler and Ray, the team has guys with experience closing in the past. I think the Indians would be reticent to trade C. Perez and go to Pestano with no backup plan and those signings (experienced) may be part of the backup plan (which would make it easier to trade C.Perez.) Now I think it will take more to get Morales than that but you could throw in a KDLC, Salazar, McAllister, or Gomez (depending on how the trade is negotiated.)


I'd probably break my computer if McAllister or Gomez were throwins to a Morales deal. Guy was great in 2009 but that was his only good year and now missing 1.5+ seasons? He's as big a question mark as Grady if not more (at least Grady has been able to make it back to regular season games). CP straight up for Morales is too much even with CP's lackluster year (and salary). Morales would have to absolutely be on fire during the spring to even be worth Gomez (who I am not even a big fan of) or McAllister by themselves. Think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves here. Even if the reports are 100% accurate that he's hitting well in batting practice...lets see how his TIMING at the plate is after missing so much of the past 2 years. I know Aaron Boone wasn't the same caliber of hitter at their peaks, but we saw how much he struggled getting that aspect back after missing just 1 season with that knee injury.


Fair point. I don't think CP will be enough to pry him loose from the Angels. I would also say the Gomez + CP is too much so I would expect the Angels to throw in a prospect in the mix. Morales if healthy has the potential to be a big bat in the lineup. Sure he's a ? but at little risk salary-wise which is more in line with what the Indians can do to take a risk. Can he play 1B?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:03 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote: As far as value...will depend on how Morales looks in ST games. Right now, I'd deal DLC...but that's about it. Maybe Hermann. If he looks healthy this spring with no complications, maybe you up it to Raffy but missing over a year and a half....he worries me.


I completely understand the worry you express but a I wrote earlier - I prefer the flyer I take on Morales (even by cost of trade) then the flyer to improve by sitting tight (where the Tribe is today) or the flyer of signing one of the remaining free agents.

I also understand the idea of waiting to see how Morales is in spring training before pulling any trigger. One might be paying for an empty uniform. Sadly the reason to deal now was already pointed out. If Morales is seen mashing in ST then everyone will be in on him and the cost is thru the roof.

This is where the GM earns the money he gets paid. Make tough decisions and run a few risks (within reason). Besides bullpen 'depth' the Tribe is also overstocked on utility guys. Perhaps a 2 for 1 deal can be made. Each of our players is lower in value but combined its a good enough move for the Halos to jump. Since Cord Phelps was from out there, there might be some interest on the Halos part (unless it would cause Hermie to smash his computer) :friends:


Fair enough...I guess I just don't see it as "taking a flyer" on Morales if you're dealing a guy like Chris Perez (plus others). I would love to take a flyer on Morales....to me that's giving up a DLC or some lower level spec though. The flyer is that Morales hasn't played since early 2010....the Indians or any team should not give up much value to get a guy like that imo. If they do, they are taking a big risk....and flyer-types aren't big risks to the team if they don't pan out...at least that's how I view them...

Phelps....if it was only Phelps for Morales I'd be ok with it...still think that's too much. I agree with your take risks but "within reason" comment...I just think most of these offers for Morales are well outside of reasonable. Can't discount too that if the season started today, Morales would be a bench player in LA most likely. Teams know this, and shouldn't overpay. To me it's like Grady...ask yourself, what was his trade value last winter? Now cut that in half and that's what Morales is at...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:04 pm

daingean wrote:Fair point. I don't think CP will be enough to pry him loose from the Angels. I would also say the Gomez + CP is too much so I would expect the Angels to throw in a prospect in the mix. Morales if healthy has the potential to be a big bat in the lineup. Sure he's a ? but at little risk salary-wise which is more in line with what the Indians can do to take a risk. Can he play 1B?


Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. CP has his faults but he is a decent closer. Morales is currently a bench player who hasn't played in a real game in 20 months or so....
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:11 pm

As far as taking a "flier" on Morales - the tribe would be totally insane to not see him in ST action before even attempting to acquire him. I think people might be missing the bigger picture here. With a healthy Morales the Angels could move either Trumbo or him. They will wait they have absolutely no reason to hurry a trade with either of these guys unless someone is willing to seriously overpay right now or the Angels have extremely specific targets that they would accept for a either of these guys.

We got as much of chance (more actually) to sign Cepedes as we do trading for Morales right now IMO.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:12 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote: As far as value...will depend on how Morales looks in ST games. Right now, I'd deal DLC...but that's about it. Maybe Hermann. If he looks healthy this spring with no complications, maybe you up it to Raffy but missing over a year and a half....he worries me.


I completely understand the worry you express but a I wrote earlier - I prefer the flyer I take on Morales (even by cost of trade) then the flyer to improve by sitting tight (where the Tribe is today) or the flyer of signing one of the remaining free agents.

I also understand the idea of waiting to see how Morales is in spring training before pulling any trigger. One might be paying for an empty uniform. Sadly the reason to deal now was already pointed out. If Morales is seen mashing in ST then everyone will be in on him and the cost is thru the roof.

This is where the GM earns the money he gets paid. Make tough decisions and run a few risks (within reason). Besides bullpen 'depth' the Tribe is also overstocked on utility guys. Perhaps a 2 for 1 deal can be made. Each of our players is lower in value but combined its a good enough move for the Halos to jump. Since Cord Phelps was from out there, there might be some interest on the Halos part (unless it would cause Hermie to smash his computer) :friends:


Fair enough...I guess I just don't see it as "taking a flyer" on Morales if you're dealing a guy like Chris Perez (plus others). I would love to take a flyer on Morales....to me that's giving up a DLC or some lower level spec though. The flyer is that Morales hasn't played since early 2010....the Indians or any team should not give up much value to get a guy like that imo. If they do, they are taking a big risk....and flyer-types aren't big risks to the team if they don't pan out...at least that's how I view them...

Phelps....if it was only Phelps for Morales I'd be ok with it...still think that's too much. I agree with your take risks but "within reason" comment...I just think most of these offers for Morales are well outside of reasonable. Can't discount too that if the season started today, Morales would be a bench player in LA most likely. Teams know this, and shouldn't overpay. To me it's like Grady...ask yourself, what was his trade value last winter? Now cut that in half and that's what Morales is at...


It may be time for the risk averse Indians throw caution to the wind..This guy has the potential to be the piece that could be a difference maker.. As stated, the Indians may get burned by trading away a useful player for an empty uniform.. or they may catch lightning in a bottle.. If the scouts and player development personnel look at what he's doing and come to the conclusion he's worth the risk.. get him.. even if it hurts a little...

btw.. Morales will be a FA after the 2013 season, regardless..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:14 pm

criznit2009 wrote:As far as taking a "flier" on Morales - the tribe would be totally insane to not see him in ST action before even attempting to acquire him. I think people might be missing the bigger picture here. With a healthy Morales the Angels could move either Trumbo or him. They will wait they have absolutely no reason to hurry a trade with either of these guys unless someone is willing to seriously overpay right now or the Angels have extremely specific targets that they would accept for a either of these guys.

We got as much of chance (more actually) to sign Cepedes as we do trading for Morales right now IMO.


Which is more important?

Knowing Cespedes is healthy...

Knowing, if healthy, Morales has shown (not proven) the ability to mash at the ML level?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:27 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Which is more important?

Knowing Cespedes is healthy...

Knowing, if healthy, Morales has shown (not proven) the ability to mash at the ML level?


In my opinion, Cespedes will cost the Indians a multi-year lucrative contract. Morales will cost a prospect or 2. If Cespedes fails they will have a Hafner-esq contract and not be able to resign guys like Masterson, Ubaldo, Choo or ACab. If they miss on Morales, they aren't out a lot of money but the prospect(s). I think for the Indians the $$$ is more crippling. Now upside is Cespedes plays a position that the Indians are weak at. Morales plays a position that the Indians are not strong at and could use more immediate help.

My vote on the 2 is Morales.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:03 am

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Which is more important?

Knowing Cespedes is healthy...

Knowing, if healthy, Morales has shown (not proven) the ability to mash at the ML level?


In my opinion, Cespedes will cost the Indians a multi-year lucrative contract. Morales will cost a prospect or 2. If Cespedes fails they will have a Hafner-esq contract and not be able to resign guys like Masterson, Ubaldo, Choo or ACab. If they miss on Morales, they aren't out a lot of money but the prospect(s). I think for the Indians the $$$ is more crippling. Now upside is Cespedes plays a position that the Indians are weak at. Morales plays a position that the Indians are not strong at and could use more immediate help.

My vote on the 2 is Morales.

FWIW, SCAL sports talk discussed the Angels 1B/OF/DH dilemma of an overabundance of players under contract. I listened late so I have no idea who the guests were but they all had opinions about where the Angels were going with Morales, Trumbo, Abreu, Hunter, Trout and Wells now that they have Pujols. All agreed that Pujols plays 1B and the rest compete. All further agreed the Angels most pressing need is to upgrade 3B. About Morales, they agreed there is reason for optimism he will play this year and he is unlikely to be traded for anything less than a starting 3B near ML ready. He is the leading DH candidate. Trout is untouchable. Trumbo will be tried at 3B/OF and DH if Morales isn't ready. That leaves the three old guys. Any of the three could be traded but no one thought there would be a taker for Wells and he could be released or Angels essentially pick up his salary for any prospect. If these guys have a clue, then it doesn't look like much opportunity for the Tribe unless Wells is appealing. Never liked him much but it would only be for a year and might be good depth at OF corners. None of these guys thought he could play CF any more. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ACrank » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:55 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:As far as taking a "flier" on Morales - the tribe would be totally insane to not see him in ST action before even attempting to acquire him. I think people might be missing the bigger picture here. With a healthy Morales the Angels could move either Trumbo or him. They will wait they have absolutely no reason to hurry a trade with either of these guys unless someone is willing to seriously overpay right now or the Angels have extremely specific targets that they would accept for a either of these guys.

We got as much of chance (more actually) to sign Cepedes as we do trading for Morales right now IMO.


Which is more important?

Knowing Cespedes is healthy...

Knowing, if healthy, Morales has shown (not proven) the ability to mash at the ML level?


With the cash outlay is going to take to sign Cepedes, the Indians would have to be sure that he would succeed. & by succeed i mean be a major league star and be a major league star almost immediately. With all of the questions that are popping up about him - i've read that he could start in AA, that he is actually a corner OF, or that he will even be a 1b - i can't blame the Indians for thinking its too big of a gamble to work. This is not the Yankees who can fail on a big monied foreign born FA and not blink an eye (i can't remember there names, but can remember a cuban 3b and a japanese pitcher who i both saw playing in AA after they failed in New York) this is a non major market team who if they fail on a signing of this sort its going to hurt them for years to come.

Its a complete change of opinion from when his name first popped up, but at this point i'd vote for Morales. Losing prospects on a failed deal would hurt too, but it would be easier for the Indians to recover from that then it is from a blown international FA signing.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:48 pm

I would agree the tribe could recover from losing a cpl prospects rather than being locked in a Hafner type deal.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby toledobuck » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:07 pm

Morales is not going to be available in trade so we need to stop speculating that. Trumbo or Wells may be available. I still think the Tribe should try to work out something with Houston to get C. Lee. That is the most reasonable trade option now. If Carmona / Heredia is not going to play this season and his money is off the books, the Tribe definitely needs to shell out some cash to obtain C. Lee for minimal prospects (ie Phelps & Sarianides).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:58 pm

toledobuck wrote:Morales is not going to be available in trade so we need to stop speculating that. Trumbo or Wells may be available. I still think the Tribe should try to work out something with Houston to get C. Lee. That is the most reasonable trade option now. If Carmona / Heredia is not going to play this season and his money is off the books, the Tribe definitely needs to shell out some cash to obtain C. Lee for minimal prospects (ie Phelps & Sarianides).


A problem here is that Wells has no trade value whatsoever. Even eating cash, can't see a team taking him on after his historically terrible season. He posted the worst OBP in baseball history while hitting 20 HRs or more. His .248 OBP was the lowest for a qualfitying OFer since George Barclay.....in 1904! That's right, he had the lowest OBP by a starting OFer in over 100 years....and is owed $63M still....good luck dealing him. Oh, and he has a full-no trade clause still (he waived it to go to LA)...so even if the Angels did somehow find a team to take him, Wells has to approve the deal. eek. The only thing really going for Wells (and i'm reaching big time here) is that in the last 3 "even" years (2006, 2008, 2010) he's been very solid posting OPS+s of 129, 122, and 125.

Trumbo...unless the Angels decide they're willing to move him for very little, he will be a tough sell as well since many teams value OBP and Trumbo posted one worse than matt LaPorta. Trumbo's power was nice, but reminds me a bit of Chris Davis...if the power goes away at all, he's a bench guy.

Then of course there's the issue with Morales still possibly being a bench guy even if they are able to move one of those guys (or hell, even both). Abreu is still the DH right now. Say what you want about him, but he still can get on base posting an OBP over .350. Scioscia loves those kinds of hitters (to a fault IMO). Unless they try Abreu in LF or trade him (possible), Morales very likely is still on the bench in LA.

Angels could open with Morales in the minors as well though. A rehab stint similar to what Grady did last year is not out of the question even if he looks ok during spring training. Could do the same with Trumbo who is hurt now too.


As far as Lee...I think many of us agree he is a solid fit. But he has a no-trade clause. I would not be surprised if he digs his heels in and ends up playing out the year in Houston. He feels comfortable there and threatened to use it last summer. If he's traded to the Indians he'll have to learn a new park, a new league (been a while since he was in the AL) and a new division...could flop which would kill his value on the open market next winter. If he is willing to come to Cleveland though, he would be a good fit though. But getting Lee really isn't up to Cleveland...or really houston. It's up to Lee first and foremost.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:12 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:FWIW, SCAL sports talk discussed the Angels 1B/OF/DH dilemma of an overabundance of players under contract. I listened late so I have no idea who the guests were but they all had opinions about where the Angels were going with Morales, Trumbo, Abreu, Hunter, Trout and Wells now that they have Pujols. All agreed that Pujols plays 1B and the rest compete. All further agreed the Angels most pressing need is to upgrade 3B. About Morales, they agreed there is reason for optimism he will play this year and he is unlikely to be traded for anything less than a starting 3B near ML ready. He is the leading DH candidate. Trout is untouchable. Trumbo will be tried at 3B/OF and DH if Morales isn't ready. That leaves the three old guys. Any of the three could be traded but no one thought there would be a taker for Wells and he could be released or Angels essentially pick up his salary for any prospect. If these guys have a clue, then it doesn't look like much opportunity for the Tribe unless Wells is appealing. Never liked him much but it would only be for a year and might be good depth at OF corners. None of these guys thought he could play CF any more. :pleasantry:


Interesting stuff...one issue with trading the old guys is no-trade clauses though. Wells has one and more importantly so too does Hunter. I actually would love to steal Hunter if the Angels ate money (similar to Lee in Houston)...but the guy is older and this could be his best chance at a World Series win (Angles have to be one of the favorites). Good luck trying to get him to waive that no-trade clause to go anywhere (not just Cleveland). Would be interesting on Wells if they'd be willing to flat out release him (Giants did it with Rowand, albeit lot less money/years left). No team would claim him (ok, maybe Kenny Williams and the White Sox)....though if he became a free agent, probably would look elsewhere than Cleveland...

Abreu is the only one that I think they could deal right now....just saw his HR total drop from 20 to 8 though. Still gets on base and can steal bases. If they ate some money, could probably find a suitor...though many teams probably view him as a DH only, which could make things tough. Yanks come to mind...maybe the Tigers, but not too many teams likely clamoring for Abreu's services...

Going to be an interesting team to follow this spring. Even if the Tribe doesn't get anyone, just to see what they do end up doing with the excess OF/1B/DH types they have.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:18 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:FWIW, SCAL sports talk discussed the Angels 1B/OF/DH dilemma of an overabundance of players under contract. I listened late so I have no idea who the guests were but they all had opinions about where the Angels were going with Morales, Trumbo, Abreu, Hunter, Trout and Wells now that they have Pujols. All agreed that Pujols plays 1B and the rest compete. All further agreed the Angels most pressing need is to upgrade 3B. About Morales, they agreed there is reason for optimism he will play this year and he is unlikely to be traded for anything less than a starting 3B near ML ready. He is the leading DH candidate. Trout is untouchable. Trumbo will be tried at 3B/OF and DH if Morales isn't ready. That leaves the three old guys. Any of the three could be traded but no one thought there would be a taker for Wells and he could be released or Angels essentially pick up his salary for any prospect. If these guys have a clue, then it doesn't look like much opportunity for the Tribe unless Wells is appealing. Never liked him much but it would only be for a year and might be good depth at OF corners. None of these guys thought he could play CF any more. :pleasantry:


Interesting stuff...one issue with trading the old guys is no-trade clauses though. Wells has one and more importantly so too does Hunter. I actually would love to steal Hunter if the Angels ate money (similar to Lee in Houston)...but the guy is older and this could be his best chance at a World Series win (Angles have to be one of the favorites). Good luck trying to get him to waive that no-trade clause to go anywhere (not just Cleveland). Would be interesting on Wells if they'd be willing to flat out release him (Giants did it with Rowand, albeit lot less money/years left). No team would claim him (ok, maybe Kenny Williams and the White Sox)....though if he became a free agent, probably would look elsewhere than Cleveland...

Abreu is the only one that I think they could deal right now....just saw his HR total drop from 20 to 8 though. Still gets on base and can steal bases. If they ate some money, could probably find a suitor...though many teams probably view him as a DH only, which could make things tough. Yanks come to mind...maybe the Tigers, but not too many teams likely clamoring for Abreu's services...

Going to be an interesting team to follow this spring. Even if the Tribe doesn't get anyone, just to see what they do end up doing with the excess OF/1B/DH types they have.

The talking heads said as much about Wells which was the reason they gave for his potential release. I did not elaborate on Abreu but the feeling seemed to be he would be kept because of his LH bat which makes some sense to me. The feeling was that Wells would not waive his no trade and neither would Hunter. But who really knows? Hunter would be more likely to approve a Cleveland trade or FA interest IMO but that is just a guess. Hell of a problem to have! Your right that it should be interesting. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:26 pm

I'm still of the opinion that the Tribe should look to snag Edwin Jackson from the FA mkt. I would look to add pitching since the Tribe has been unable to land a bat. I know the Tribe could simply stay put but truth be told Carmona is a big hit to the rotation. 200 innings are not easy to come by and Jackson, while unspectacular has a career 60-60 w/l record and a career (about) 4.50 era. His past few seasons however have been more respectable. He's a guy I feel could come to Cleveland and post 12 wins with 4.00 era and log 200 innings with 150 K's. Jackson might be had on a 3 yr deal with a vesting option for a 4th yr.

I'd offer:
12---$7 mil
13---$10 mil
14---$12 mil
*15---$12.5 mil w/$2.5 mil buyout and vesting option with 450 innings over 12-14, if traded option becomes player option.

Just saying Jackson while not a sexy p/u, would provide a solid inning eater, with a decent ERA at the 3 spot, could be affordable and controllable throughout the Tribes window of contention.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:15 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'm still of the opinion that the Tribe should look to snag Edwin Jackson from the FA mkt. I would look to add pitching since the Tribe has been unable to land a bat. I know the Tribe could simply stay put but truth be told Carmona is a big hit to the rotation. 200 innings are not easy to come by and Jackson, while unspectacular has a career 60-60 w/l record and a career (about) 4.50 era. His past few seasons however have been more respectable. He's a guy I feel could come to Cleveland and post 12 wins with 4.00 era and log 200 innings with 150 K's. Jackson might be had on a 3 yr deal with a vesting option for a 4th yr.

I'd offer:
12---$7 mil
13---$10 mil
14---$12 mil
*15---$12.5 mil w/$2.5 mil buyout and vesting option with 450 innings over 12-14, if traded option becomes player option.

Just saying Jackson while not a sexy p/u, would provide a solid inning eater, with a decent ERA at the 3 spot, could be affordable and controllable throughout the Tribes window of contention.


I think your years are right in line with what Jackson is likely to get....I think you're probably underselling him on money though. With Boras as his agent he's probably looking for at least a 3yr/$36M deal. Heck, probably was looking for a deal similar to what Burnett signed with Toronto (similar age). If you increased the money (probably going to get more than $7M in 2012), maybe you could entice him to come to Cleveland. Don't seem to be a ton of suitors out there. I'd love to land him, as Masterson, Ubaldo, and jackson would make one formidable front 3 IMO. Just not sure the Tribe would commit enough years to him...or give him an opt-out after 1 year (which I think could really get him interested in cleveland).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:24 pm

If it came down to getting Jackson and a few mil. I'd tag on a few more this yr. add a cpl mil. spread out over the contract and then trade Raffy Perez, and push Slowey and Huff into the bullpen comp.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:12 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:If it came down to getting Jackson and a few mil. I'd tag on a few more this yr. add a cpl mil. spread out over the contract and then trade Raffy Perez, and push Slowey and Huff into the bullpen comp.


There is no way the tribe will offer any sort of multi year deal to Jackson - at least I hope they won't. Sure it is risky, but any FA getting a multi year deal right now from tribe should be named Cepedes.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:58 pm

I'm not sure about Cespedes, an unknown...but talented and I'm guessing the Marlins may push his price too high for the Tribe.

Definately feel like the Tribe needs to make some serious runs at Cespedes, Soler and Jackson. I'm not a huge fan of Jackson but would be a solid add if they take advantage of the mkt.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:01 am

Just a thought but how good would the rotation sound in 2013?

Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Edwin Jackson
Josh Tomlin
Carlos Carrasco
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:31 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Just a thought but how good would the rotation sound in 2013?

Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Edwin Jackson
Josh Tomlin
Carlos Carrasco


I've often thought that 5 quality starters are a bit of an overkill. I watched the Braves win so many division titles (14 in a row) but only 1 WS title (ouch that still hurts). Anyway, it's great in the regular season but the 5th starter is almost counterproductive in the playoffs. I'd rather spend the money spent on the 5th guy on a hitter because the hitter plays every day. I know Carrasco will be a bit of a ? in 2013 (as command is the last thing that comes after TJ surgery).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:33 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Just a thought but how good would the rotation sound in 2013?

Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Edwin Jackson
Josh Tomlin
Carlos Carrasco

Not a terrible idea but I really don't see a good reason to spend over a third of the 2013 available money on Jackson, who has proven to be little more than an MOR/BOR record even though his ceiling should have been higher. There is a reason he wears out his welcome so quickly and there appears to be little interest in signing him to a multi-year contract. Since Oswalt is off the market, I would rather spend the available money next year on keeping Masterson or Jimenez if they have a quality 2012 rather than a bidding war with big bucks and overpay Jackson. Jackson is the last starter standing and Boras will be in his element. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:00 am

I understand having 5 qlty starters is overblown, not when injuries mount up. Truth be told I would rather the Tribe spend that money on Asdrubal Cabrera and Justin Masterson. Also, next yr I believe Nick Swisher will be a FA and could be signed for that type money ($10-$12 mil).

I'm not a Edwin Jackson fan, he is a qlty arm who will log innings and keep the team in the gm. If I signed him it would also be with an eye on moving him in the future. Jackson is 28 yrs old with a little upside IMO. After the "window of contention" passes I'd simply try to get a cpl prospects. I guess I'm trying to play the devils advocate; sign him to an affordable deal through out the next 2 yrs. what Jackson offers (innings) is the same thing Carmona brought to the table. I just can't see Huff, Barnes, Gomez, Slowey logging 200 innings that fast. Combined yes but it is safer bet to fill the MOR spot and push these guys into depth, bullpen spots.

What we will likely see from the Tribe is a minor league deal like Rich Harden for $1.5 mil just like Jeff Francis got from the Reds. I had been clamoring for a similar from the Tribe. The uncertainty of the Carmona deal hurts the Tribe.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:11 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I understand having 5 qlty starters is overblown, not when injuries mount up. Truth be told I would rather the Tribe spend that money on Asdrubal Cabrera and Justin Masterson. Also, next yr I believe Nick Swisher will be a FA and could be signed for that type money ($10-$12 mil).

I'm not a Edwin Jackson fan, he is a qlty arm who will log innings and keep the team in the gm. If I signed him it would also be with an eye on moving him in the future. Jackson is 28 yrs old with a little upside IMO. After the "window of contention" passes I'd simply try to get a cpl prospects. I guess I'm trying to play the devils advocate; sign him to an affordable deal through out the next 2 yrs. what Jackson offers (innings) is the same thing Carmona brought to the table. I just can't see Huff, Barnes, Gomez, Slowey logging 200 innings that fast. Combined yes but it is safer bet to fill the MOR spot and push these guys into depth, bullpen spots.

What we will likely see from the Tribe is a minor league deal like Rich Harden for $1.5 mil just like Jeff Francis got from the Reds. I had been clamoring for a similar from the Tribe. The uncertainty of the Carmona deal hurts the Tribe.

Not sure innings is a big problem homer since Gomez pitched 200 last year which exceeded Carmona and the same as Jackson. Unless felled by injury, I would not expect Gomez to decline in 2012 since he turns 24 in 2 weeks. If Tomlin, Lowe, McAllister and Huff are healthy, I would guess that 200 is within their grasp as well. I do not believe Jackson's agent would sign an affordable two year deal with us when Baltimore purportedly has offerred 4 years and supposedly other teams have given him 3 years. I suspect the signing cost will go up rather than down. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:17 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I understand having 5 qlty starters is overblown, not when injuries mount up. Truth be told I would rather the Tribe spend that money on Asdrubal Cabrera and Justin Masterson. Also, next yr I believe Nick Swisher will be a FA and could be signed for that type money ($10-$12 mil).

I'm not a Edwin Jackson fan, he is a qlty arm who will log innings and keep the team in the gm. If I signed him it would also be with an eye on moving him in the future. Jackson is 28 yrs old with a little upside IMO. After the "window of contention" passes I'd simply try to get a cpl prospects. I guess I'm trying to play the devils advocate; sign him to an affordable deal through out the next 2 yrs. what Jackson offers (innings) is the same thing Carmona brought to the table. I just can't see Huff, Barnes, Gomez, Slowey logging 200 innings that fast. Combined yes but it is safer bet to fill the MOR spot and push these guys into depth, bullpen spots.

What we will likely see from the Tribe is a minor league deal like Rich Harden for $1.5 mil just like Jeff Francis got from the Reds. I had been clamoring for a similar from the Tribe. The uncertainty of the Carmona deal hurts the Tribe.


Huff, Barnes, Gomez, and Slowey won't have to log 200 innings that Jackson would. The thing is those guys would fit into the 5th spot in the rotation with Lowe in the 4th....signing Jackson would push Lowe down to the 5th slot (which may be better for his arm). I think Lowe will have a rebound season but he is what he is a good pitcher that just suddenly loses it with no warning in a game (per last year's performance).

Harden for $1.5 mil would be a bargain but then you have to pray for him to remain healthy. The have such a fragile (projected) 25 man roster which really puts stress on the 40 and that is really the only downside to signing Harden (assuming he makes the 25 out of spring).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:15 pm

If the Tribe hadn't dealt for Slowey, I would have been campaigning for the Tribe to sign Harden. At this point he is possibly overkill (unless there's a plan to deal a SP as a package part for the desired bat).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:34 pm

daingean wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:I understand having 5 qlty starters is overblown, not when injuries mount up. Truth be told I would rather the Tribe spend that money on Asdrubal Cabrera and Justin Masterson. Also, next yr I believe Nick Swisher will be a FA and could be signed for that type money ($10-$12 mil).

I'm not a Edwin Jackson fan, he is a qlty arm who will log innings and keep the team in the gm. If I signed him it would also be with an eye on moving him in the future. Jackson is 28 yrs old with a little upside IMO. After the "window of contention" passes I'd simply try to get a cpl prospects. I guess I'm trying to play the devils advocate; sign him to an affordable deal through out the next 2 yrs. what Jackson offers (innings) is the same thing Carmona brought to the table. I just can't see Huff, Barnes, Gomez, Slowey logging 200 innings that fast. Combined yes but it is safer bet to fill the MOR spot and push these guys into depth, bullpen spots.

What we will likely see from the Tribe is a minor league deal like Rich Harden for $1.5 mil just like Jeff Francis got from the Reds. I had been clamoring for a similar from the Tribe. The uncertainty of the Carmona deal hurts the Tribe.


Huff, Barnes, Gomez, and Slowey won't have to log 200 innings that Jackson would. The thing is those guys would fit into the 5th spot in the rotation with Lowe in the 4th....signing Jackson would push Lowe down to the 5th slot (which may be better for his arm). I think Lowe will have a rebound season but he is what he is a good pitcher that just suddenly loses it with no warning in a game (per last year's performance).

Harden for $1.5 mil would be a bargain but then you have to pray for him to remain healthy. The have such a fragile (projected) 25 man roster which really puts stress on the 40 and that is really the only downside to signing Harden (assuming he makes the 25 out of spring).


If Lowe is our #4, then who is the #3? Tomlin? Guy was worse than Carmona from July on and is coming off an elbow injury. IMO tomlin should be behind Lowe in the rotation. Hasn't proven he can pitch a full season, plus was not very good after the first two month. When healthy he did get you 5-6 innings so a decent 5th man, but he should not be pitching higher than 4th (and IMO 5th) in a rotation that wants to win. Guess we see things differently but signing a guy like Jackson would bump Lowe from 3rd to 4th and Tomlin from 4th to 5th. Tomlin wasn't a whole lot different than Talbot from the year before. Started very hot then struggled in the 2nd half. Finished with a respectable ERA but the signs for a drop were there. I would not be shocked if Tomlin is in AAA or in the bullpen by the All-Star break after being bumped by a guy in AAA...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:54 pm

... would not be shocked if Tomlin is in AAA ....
Well, that puts Brantley, Chisenhall, Tomlin, LaPorta and maybe Kipnis in AAA for you.. Is anyone that played last year going to be on the ML roster?
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