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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:48 pm

Pluto had a piece in the paper today saying the Indians might go after LH 1B Carlos Pena or Kotchman. He also said if they don't they can still have Santana play first while Marson does the catching.

I say the hell with that attitude. That attitude means no sense of urgency. Normally I would say having a sense of urgency is a good way to get hurt. But, to let the market play out and live on the scraps is not the way to build a contender this season. We need a sense of urgency because we have nobody under contract for more than a year. We also traded our 2 best SP prospects for a SP that will be gone soon too. Now is the time to overpay , if you have to, to make a deal and set your team. That would get people talking and buying tickets.

When Fielder decides to sign, there will be 1 more 1B on the market. But the leading contenders, (Nats & M's) don't have a 1B that I would be wild about. My favorite would still be Trumbo, and I would trade bullpen help to get him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:54 pm

I'd agree the Tribe must have a sense of urgency, but not also make a panic driven move.
That said Ive suggested the Tribe overpay to get the player they want in terms of prospects. There are or at least were several bullpen arms bottlenecked in the minors, trading several or perhaps a cpl of McAllister or Huff in the same pkg. OR trading a player or two for younger lower level with a high ceiling but further away.

Right now looking at the 1b options Carlos Pena would be my favorite and a guy I wouldn't mind the Tribe to go a 2 yr deal on. Carlos Lee would be alright but only if the Astros eat a Carlos Zambrano size chunk of his salary. I can't see this happening until ST. Which is when I'd expect to see the Tribe make a deal or two.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:27 am

At this point in time.. the FA 1B's that remain not named Prince Fielder would offer higher priced and no real improvement over what can be expected from internal candidates and specifically Matt LaPorta..

Trades can still be made and probably should be made, but for now, the FA's that remain aren't worth a warm bucket....
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:12 am

GeronimoSon wrote:At this point in time.. the FA 1B's that remain not named Prince Fielder would offer higher priced and no real improvement over what can be expected from internal candidates and specifically Matt LaPorta..

Trades can still be made and probably should be made, but for now, the FA's that remain aren't worth a warm bucket....


I disagree. The only thing we can expect from LaPorta is what we got last year. We can HOPE for improvement but we cannot expect improvement. This is one reason why either the Tribe acquires additional help or add capable bodies to the competition mix. I certainly HOPE LaPorta starts living up to his potential but I expect what he has given in the past (the same can be said of Santana, Chiz, Kip, Donald, Brantley with maybe different levels of HOPE) and from a health-wise the same HOPE vs. Expectation from Sizemore and Hafner. But HOPE isn't going to win a Central Division title (neither will Expectation but expectation usually proves closer to reality).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:00 am

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:At this point in time.. the FA 1B's that remain not named Prince Fielder would offer higher priced and no real improvement over what can be expected from internal candidates and specifically Matt LaPorta..

Trades can still be made and probably should be made, but for now, the FA's that remain aren't worth a warm bucket....


I disagree. The only thing we can expect from LaPorta is what we got last year. We can HOPE for improvement but we cannot expect improvement. This is one reason why either the Tribe acquires additional help or add capable bodies to the competition mix. I certainly HOPE LaPorta starts living up to his potential but I expect what he has given in the past (the same can be said of Santana, Chiz, Kip, Donald, Brantley with maybe different levels of HOPE) and from a health-wise the same HOPE vs. Expectation from Sizemore and Hafner. But HOPE isn't going to win a Central Division title (neither will Expectation but expectation usually proves closer to reality).


I have to agree with you.. If what the Indians got last year from LaPorta is what we get this year.. then that should be okay.. That would be another 26 point rise in his BA (from .247 to .273, Slugging up another 50 points top .462, 43 more points on his OPS t 0 .753.. If he can get up to around 550 ABs, a full season for the first time in his ML career, then his HR's RBI's and Runs should come in around 20-22 homers, 70 - 80 RBI's and 70-80 Runs scored.. That should be more than enough for a young 1B..

Hope is all a team has until the games are played.. and there's no reason not to have hope that the Matt LaPorta, as a full time 1B, can delivery these numbers...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:24 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:I have to agree with you.. If what the Indians got last year from LaPorta is what we get this year.. then that should be okay.. That would be another 26 point rise in his BA (from .247 to .273, Slugging up another 50 points top .462, 43 more points on his OPS t 0 .753.. If he can get up to around 550 ABs, a full season for the first time in his ML career, then his HR's RBI's and Runs should come in around 20-22 homers, 70 - 80 RBI's and 70-80 Runs scored.. That should be more than enough for a young 1B..

Hope is all a team has until the games are played.. and there's no reason not to have hope that the Matt LaPorta, as a full time 1B, can delivery these numbers...


Projecting LaPorta to be a part-timer, Bill James expects Matt to be a decidedly average 1B in his limited time, hitting .254/.327/.441 with a .333 wOBA. Bill James is notorious for being sunny on his predictions. There are no ZiPS projections for the 2012 Indians yet, and I don't expect them to be glowing, either.

The fact is, LaPorta isn't young anymore. He should be hitting his prime, mashing 30+ Homeruns a year for the Indians at 1st base. Instead, LaPorta is a poor defensive 1B who can only hope to produce numbers like Ryan Garko at this point in his career.

I honestly wish that LaPorta can figure out ML pitching like he has AAA pitching, but the more time goes on, the more he looks like a lost cause. I know about his sudden resurgence last September, but I'd like for him to do that on a consistent basis during meaningful games.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:36 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:I have to agree with you.. If what the Indians got last year from LaPorta is what we get this year.. then that should be okay.. That would be another 26 point rise in his BA (from .247 to .273, Slugging up another 50 points top .462, 43 more points on his OPS t 0 .753.. If he can get up to around 550 ABs, a full season for the first time in his ML career, then his HR's RBI's and Runs should come in around 20-22 homers, 70 - 80 RBI's and 70-80 Runs scored.. That should be more than enough for a young 1B..

Hope is all a team has until the games are played.. and there's no reason not to have hope that the Matt LaPorta, as a full time 1B, can delivery these numbers...


Projecting LaPorta to be a part-timer, Bill James expects Matt to be a decidedly average 1B in his limited time, hitting .254/.327/.441 with a .333 wOBA. Bill James is notorious for being sunny on his predictions. There are no ZiPS projections for the 2012 Indians yet, and I don't expect them to be glowing, either.

The fact is, LaPorta isn't young anymore. He should be hitting his prime, mashing 30+ Homeruns a year for the Indians at 1st base. Instead, LaPorta is a poor defensive 1B who can only hope to produce numbers like Ryan Garko at this point in his career.

I honestly wish that LaPorta can figure out ML pitching like he has AAA pitching, but the more time goes on, the more he looks like a lost cause. I know about his sudden resurgence last September, but I'd like for him to do that on a consistent basis during meaningful games.


If LaPorta had the desire and determination to improve, he would have played winter ball. I admit he had a better September, but if he wanted to keep it going, and make up AB's he missed, he could have played for a month this winter.
I don't understand that at all. He knows his job is on the line, and he sits. I was a LaPorta fan. He was under a lot of pressure as the centerpiece of the CC trade. But no need to analyze body language with him. Actions speak louder.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:54 pm

I disagree. The only FA worth going after IMO though is Carlos Pena. Although Pena K's a lot, he walks and gets XBH. The power potential Pena offers is something the lineup is lacking overall. Maybe Carlos Lee in a trade or others but signing Casey Kotchman would not be an improvement at all.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:02 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I disagree. The only FA worth going after IMO though is Carlos Pena. Although Pena K's a lot, he walks and gets XBH. The power potential Pena offers is something the lineup is lacking overall. Maybe Carlos Lee in a trade or others but signing Casey Kotchman would not be an improvement at all.


Agreed on Pena, but I enjoyed watching him play for the Rays so perhaps that colored my view of him. He's a strikeout guy who plays adequate defense and has big-time power. He has a few good years left in him, too. Derrek Lee, and possibly Carlos Lee, do not.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:16 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:At this point in time.. the FA 1B's that remain not named Prince Fielder would offer higher priced and no real improvement over what can be expected from internal candidates and specifically Matt LaPorta..

Trades can still be made and probably should be made, but for now, the FA's that remain aren't worth a warm bucket....


I disagree. The only thing we can expect from LaPorta is what we got last year. We can HOPE for improvement but we cannot expect improvement. This is one reason why either the Tribe acquires additional help or add capable bodies to the competition mix. I certainly HOPE LaPorta starts living up to his potential but I expect what he has given in the past (the same can be said of Santana, Chiz, Kip, Donald, Brantley with maybe different levels of HOPE) and from a health-wise the same HOPE vs. Expectation from Sizemore and Hafner. But HOPE isn't going to win a Central Division title (neither will Expectation but expectation usually proves closer to reality).


I have to agree with you.. If what the Indians got last year from LaPorta is what we get this year.. then that should be okay.. That would be another 26 point rise in his BA (from .247 to .273, Slugging up another 50 points top .462, 43 more points on his OPS t 0 .753.. If he can get up to around 550 ABs, a full season for the first time in his ML career, then his HR's RBI's and Runs should come in around 20-22 homers, 70 - 80 RBI's and 70-80 Runs scored.. That should be more than enough for a young 1B..

Hope is all a team has until the games are played.. and there's no reason not to have hope that the Matt LaPorta, as a full time 1B, can delivery these numbers...


By this logic we should expect LaPorta's OBP to fall yet again from its already horrible .299 mark....

Tribe really needs to upgrade 1B (need to in LF as well but I digress). If LaPorta does finally prove himself then great, he can replace Hafner at DH when he's hurt and next year (if you sign a guy for more than 1 year). But LaPorta MUST show better discipline at the plate this year. I don't care how much he increases his batting average if he can't get on base at even a .300 clip.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:52 pm

The Tribe announced the signing of Chris Seddon - 28 yr old LHP to a minor league deal with Spring Training invite. Seddon has MLB exp. In 07 and 10 w/ the M's and then Marlins. Seddon is a depth signing, with the ability to pitch as a starter or reliever.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:51 am

On twitter Omar Vizquel mentioned that if he is not offered a contract, he would consider getting into coaching.

I say great. I know he is getting close to some milestones, but it's time to call it a career while he is still a good ballplayer. I can still remember as a kid when Willie Mays would fall over himself playing for the Mets trying to hang on.

If he wants to coach, the Indians would be a great destination for him. He could spend a year as a roving instructor working with the young INF in the system. Next year, Sandy will probably be gone, and he could take his place.

Nobody buys tickets to see a coach, but he would put a smile on the fans faces.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:54 pm

How about signing Omar as a player / coach... Let him
Come to ST as a player and see how he looks but hook him with that type offer.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:46 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:How about signing Omar as a player / coach... Let him
Come to ST as a player and see how he looks but hook him with that type offer.


I'd love to see Omar back in Cleveland. Think he'd be a great influence with Cabrera and the other infielders. I just don't see a great fit as a player....unless the Tribe were to deal Donald in a move to get a back. In that case, you'd really need a guy like Omar IMO as I don't see Phelps as a good backup SS option and Diaz needs time at AAA. Granted you already brought in a guy like Lopez...but same thing applies as with Phelps.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:41 pm

The Tribe had reportedly (mlbtraderumors.com) signed 27 yr old Chin Lung- Hu - SS to a minor league deal. Hu has 9 yrs of minor league exp. he also spent 22 games on the Mets last season.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:20 pm

The Brewers have signed former Tribe farmhand Paul Phillips-C to a minor league deal.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:38 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe had reportedly (mlbtraderumors.com) signed 27 yr old Chin Lung- Hu - SS to a minor league deal. Hu has 9 yrs of minor league exp. he also spent 22 games on the Mets last season.


It's a done deal.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:56 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe had reportedly (mlbtraderumors.com) signed 27 yr old Chin Lung- Hu - SS to a minor league deal. Hu has 9 yrs of minor league exp. he also spent 22 games on the Mets last season.

They gotta let him play First Base at least once. C'mon, tee it up for Hammy.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:31 pm

Indians signed reliever Chris Ray to a minor league deal/spring training invite.

He was pretty darn solid a few years ago, and still has his moments, he's just had the injury bug almost eat him alive. His delivery is violent as it gets but he still has some good stuff. If he's healthy this really is a decent signing for C-bus/emergency in Cleveland.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:12 pm

Hu's on first??? :biggrin:

I like the Chris Ray signing, low risk / reward. Could find himself in the pen if there's any injuries.

:s_thumbsup Here's hoping the Pena chatter is not only that.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:41 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:Indians signed reliever Chris Ray to a minor league deal/spring training invite.

He was pretty darn solid a few years ago, and still has his moments, he's just had the injury bug almost eat him alive. His delivery is violent as it gets but he still has some good stuff. If he's healthy this really is a decent signing for C-bus/emergency in Cleveland.


Yeah, I like this low risk pickup too. Also, this is the kind of deal the Indians should have made for a reliever last season and not given a ML deal to Chad Durbin. Same kind of pitcher/role....just a smarter way of going about it this year. I think if he is healthy he has a great shot to make the team in the last spot of the bullpen to pitch in mop up duty.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:21 am

The latest interviews with Chris Antonetti seem to have a single theme:

..the GINORMOUS

..the GAPING

..the INESCAPABLE BLACK HOLE

..the DISASTER OF EPIC PROPORTIONS

that is first base.. In other words, the whipping boy for all that is wrong with the Indians is being put on the first base situation..

But, ALAS, there is a solution.. go buy one of Casey Kotchman or Carlos Pena.. Isn't that just typical: throw money at the problem or, even more to the point, throw Matt LaPorta under the bus. After his 2011 season, it's time to buy a solution for no less than ten times the price and no more than twenty times the price for one of two players who aren't better than Matt LaPorta.

If Matt were to get 500 AB's like these other two "better solutions"(<=== this is sarcasm) his numbers would look like:

Matt LaPorta
HR's 16
RBI's 75
Runs 48
2B's 33

Carlos Pena
HR's 28
RBI's 80
Runs 72
2B's 27

Casey Kotchman
HR's 10
RBI's 48
Runs 44
2B's 24

It's pretty easy to see, Kotchman is clearly NOT a good idea.. Carlos Pena, with a projected $ 10 MM price tag and an embarrassingly bad split against LH'ers doesn't give anywhere close to the value Matt LaPorta provides..

Chris Antonetti was correct in his statements.. with what he & the Indians have available in the FA market, he's better with what he already has..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby jellis » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:45 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:The latest interviews with Chris Antonetti seem to have a single theme:

..the GINORMOUS

..the GAPING

..the INESCAPABLE BLACK HOLE

..the DISASTER OF EPIC PROPORTIONS

that is first base.. In other words, the whipping boy for all that is wrong with the Indians is being put on the first base situation..

But, ALAS, there is a solution.. go buy one of Casey Kotchman or Carlos Pena.. Isn't that just typical: throw money at the problem or, even more to the point, throw Matt LaPorta under the bus. After his 2011 season, it's time to buy a solution for no less than ten times the price and no more than twenty times the price for one of two players who aren't better than Matt LaPorta.

If Matt were to get 500 AB's like these other two "better solutions"(<=== this is sarcasm) his numbers would look like:

Matt LaPorta
HR's 16
RBI's 75
Runs 48
2B's 33

Carlos Pena
HR's 28
RBI's 80
Runs 72
2B's 27

Casey Kotchman
HR's 10
RBI's 48
Runs 44
2B's 24

It's pretty easy to see, Kotchman is clearly NOT a good idea.. Carlos Pena, with a projected $ 10 MM price tag and an embarrassingly bad split against LH'ers doesn't give anywhere close to the value Matt LaPorta provides..

Chris Antonetti was correct in his statements.. with what he & the Indians have available in the FA market, he's better with what he already has..



really using rbis and runs for a comparison is pretty worthless, your painting a half picture. More important is who can get on base as laporta has shown an inability to do it. Last year I thought he would break out, this year I dont see much there and expect him to start the year in AAA. If you were to compare OPS then we would see laporta easily 3rd among these options plus add in he is miles away from the defender that either of these guys are and I would gladly take either over Laporta
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:38 pm

jellis wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The latest interviews with Chris Antonetti seem to have a single theme:

..the GINORMOUS

..the GAPING

..the INESCAPABLE BLACK HOLE

..the DISASTER OF EPIC PROPORTIONS

that is first base.. In other words, the whipping boy for all that is wrong with the Indians is being put on the first base situation..

But, ALAS, there is a solution.. go buy one of Casey Kotchman or Carlos Pena.. Isn't that just typical: throw money at the problem or, even more to the point, throw Matt LaPorta under the bus. After his 2011 season, it's time to buy a solution for no less than ten times the price and no more than twenty times the price for one of two players who aren't better than Matt LaPorta.

If Matt were to get 500 AB's like these other two "better solutions"(<=== this is sarcasm) his numbers would look like:

Matt LaPorta
HR's 16
RBI's 75
Runs 48
2B's 33

Carlos Pena
HR's 28
RBI's 80
Runs 72
2B's 27

Casey Kotchman
HR's 10
RBI's 48
Runs 44
2B's 24

It's pretty easy to see, Kotchman is clearly NOT a good idea.. Carlos Pena, with a projected $ 10 MM price tag and an embarrassingly bad split against LH'ers doesn't give anywhere close to the value Matt LaPorta provides..

Chris Antonetti was correct in his statements.. with what he & the Indians have available in the FA market, he's better with what he already has..



really using rbis and runs for a comparison is pretty worthless, your painting a half picture. More important is who can get on base as laporta has shown an inability to do it. Last year I thought he would break out, this year I dont see much there and expect him to start the year in AAA. If you were to compare OPS then we would see laporta easily 3rd among these options plus add in he is miles away from the defender that either of these guys are and I would gladly take either over Laporta

Laporta won't be starting in Columbus.. he'll be in the opening day lineup for the Indians.. None of these three candidates (Pena, Kotchman or Lee ) are worth the money they're asking or the time they're asking. LaPorta is the best option the Indians have on the roster and that includes Carlos Santana who SHOULD stay behind the plate....
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:52 pm

Let's use good stats, then. My personal favorite is wOBA

Player - 2011 wOBA - Career wOBA
LaPorta - .309 - .308
Pena - .354 - .359
Kotchman - .351 - .321

If you aren't familiar with wOBA, it looks at the outcomes of every plate appearance and weights them by historical run expectancy... and the numbers are supposed to look roughly like OBP numbers. Considering a replacement player is thought to have a roughly .300 wOBA, you can see that LaPorta isn't doing much better than a replacement player. Also, remember that all of these men are first basemen, and first basemen are supposed to put up better numbers than average. So... a 50 point increase here is rather significant. Pena and Kotchman aren't better than average at 1B (and Kotchman might be a little below average if last year was an aberration), they are still demonstrably better than anything LaPorta has shown to this point.

Again, it'd be great if LaPorta shows up next year, takes the position by the horns and finally develops into a legitimate starting 1B. To this point, he has not done that. The Indians would absolutely not be doing their jobs if they're just going to hang their hopes on LaPorta improving when Pena and Kotchman (both Lees as well?) are available improvements that supposedly can be had for reasonable amounts of money on short-term contracts.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:47 pm

Edible14 wrote: Pena and Kotchman aren't better than average at 1B (and Kotchman might be a little below average if last year was an aberration), they are still demonstrably better than anything LaPorta has shown to this point.


I think Kotchman's 2011 was an aberration (in truth I think it was more a product of hitting in TB and with a pretty good lineup around him) or him peaking which really makes you can more expect him to decline. I watched him for about a year in Atlanta. His defense is very good but offensively doesn't make up for it.

As for G-Son and LaPorta, I think he HOPES that Matt continues improvement and that HOPE turns into expectation. Unfortunately, if the FO (or any business) relies on that HOPE game then they are doomed for failure. I consider myself an optimist but I think G-Son is too far optimistic (never hurts to have that optimism from one of the voices in the system but never from a decision maker.)

EDIT: G-Son I had that optimism every spring with the Tribe in the 70's.....see where that got me.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TheWord » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:44 pm

One of the things about Kotchman nobody mentions is the fact that he had Lasik eye surgery prior to last season which helped him out immensely with his ball tracking and timing.

CLEVELAND --
Casey Kotchman hit .217 last season for the Mariners, which is not good almost any way you look at it, except if you look at this way: Kotchman's eyesight was so bad he had trouble seeing clearly while walking down the street.

The Rays first baseman said he had a bacterial infection in his tear glands that resulted in a constant case of blurred vision, similar he said to what many experience when they first wake up or step outside on a cold morning.

"It was really bad," Kotchman said.

How bad?

"It was like looking through a dirty windshield," he said.

Kotchman said the eye test he took at the start of the 2010 spring training showed his depth perception was off.

"It makes sense it could have gotten a little worse, a little worse," he said. "Then it got to the point where something needed to be done. I can't do this anymore."

Released by the Mariners after last season, Kotchman said his offseason to-do list consisted of two things: hook on with another team and get his eyes fixed.

"That was the first order of business this offseason was to get that cleaned up," he said of his eyes.

Last October, Kotchman visited Tom Tooma, the Newport Beach, Calif., ophthalmologist who performed lasik surgery on Kotchman in 2004.

Kotchman said he wasn't worried the treatments would make things worse.

"I'm thinking we can land on the moon, we should be able to fix the eyes a little bit," he said.

In four painful treatments, Tooma used laser to loosen the tear glands under each eye.

After the fourth visit, Kotchman said Tooma pulled back his lower eye lids and squeezed.

"It's supposed to be clear and it's coming out like toothpaste," Kotchman said.

The improvement was dramatic.

"Just walking down the street, you can see the lights, streetlights aren't blurry," Kotchman said.

And that leads to this: Kotchman, who signed a minor-league contract with the Rays in January, entered Tuesday's game batting .355, the highest average on the team though he doesn't have enough at-bats to place him among the league leaders.

Rays manager Joe Maddon said that's a result of Kotchman returning to the ways that made him a successful hitter earlier in his career.

"He's made some nice adjustments," Maddon said. "Right now, he looks hitterish, nice and calm at the plate."

Kotchman said his success since being called up the day Manny Ramirez "retired" has something to do with his approach at the plate and a lot to do with his eyes.

"First and foremost are your eyes," Kotchman said. "You got to see the ball first, and when you're comfortable seeing, you can trust yourself to react according to what you see."


Kotchman may not hit at the same level he did in 2011, but I don't think it was a total abberation.

The guy is quite frankly the best defensive first baseman on the market, I don't think that can be discounted. He is not the power threat of Pena or LaPorta, but IMO would be the most responsible and cost effective option for this team. Especially with the influx of youth in the infield at 2B and 3B.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:27 pm

I've largely been a proponent of signing Carlos Pena bc of his power and BB that puts him on base often. I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of signing Casey Kotchman ecspecially, if Pena doesnt bring his price down some. Kotchman would offer a ML 1b with little power but very capable around the bag at 1b, which could be huge with Chisenhall and Kipnis likely being the everyday 2b and 3b. I don't think solid defense and a decent bat can be underestimated.

For reasons sake let's also mention if Kotchman is signed than Santana will likely platoon somewhat at 1b. This would put Santana in the lineup and allow him to rest his legs while adding the great defense that Lou Marson offers behind the plate. I can't remember the site but TONY posted it a cpl wks ago where Marson ranked the 3rd best defensive C in all of baseball. In truth that is his forte, and what he lacks in O, he brings to the pitching staff and team in great D, and sound pitching handling.

I'm still thoroughly convinced Pena brings more to the plate than Kotchman would bc of his bat, but I'm also somewhat convinced Kotchman could be a reasonable piece at the right price, which seems much more likely than Carlos Pena accepting the $ the tribe has to offer. Maybe if the Tribe signs Kotchman, they could still add an arm like Jeff Francis at a reasonable price (minor league deal---with incentives???) for depths sake.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:42 pm

I have mentioned this before...but I'm still not convinced that Chiz will open in Cleveland. If the Tribe were to sign a guy like Pena I think it almost makes more unlikely that he breaks camp in Cleveland.

Just look at how the roster would shake out.....Tribe will likely carry 13 hitters and 12 pitchers (as do most clubs).

Catcher: Santana, Marson (no surprise here)

OF: Choo (lock), Grady (lock barring injury), Branltey (lock barring a LF upgrade)....then you have Cunningham (out of options) and Duncan.

IF: Cabrera (lock), Kipinis (near lock), Donald (need a backup SS), Hannahan (arby eligible and wasn't non-tendered), and Pena (or whatever 1B we would sign in this scenario).

DH: Hafner (lock barring injury)

That's 13 guys......so who do you boot to have Chiz start at 3B? Can't be Donald as you need a backup SS....would you really boot Hanahan and his defense, especially if you're giving him $1M or so guaranteed? Would you dump Cunningham....after dealing Burns and losing Judy for him? I guess Duncan would be a possibility, but the Tribe seems to really like him still...

Really barring injury to someone (Grady, Hafner) or Chiz having just an absolutely unreal spring, that he will open in Columbus. IMO he could use a bit more seasoning there anyways too.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:07 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I have mentioned this before...but I'm still not convinced that Chiz will open in Cleveland. If the Tribe were to sign a guy like Pena I think it almost makes more unlikely that he breaks camp in Cleveland.

Just look at how the roster would shake out.....Tribe will likely carry 13 hitters and 12 pitchers (as do most clubs).

Catcher: Santana, Marson (no surprise here)

OF: Choo (lock), Grady (lock barring injury), Branltey (lock barring a LF upgrade)....then you have Cunningham (out of options) and Duncan.

IF: Cabrera (lock), Kipinis (near lock), Donald (need a backup SS), Hannahan (arby eligible and wasn't non-tendered), and Pena (or whatever 1B we would sign in this scenario).

DH: Hafner (lock barring injury)

That's 13 guys......so who do you boot to have Chiz start at 3B? Can't be Donald as you need a backup SS....would you really boot Hanahan and his defense, especially if you're giving him $1M or so guaranteed? Would you dump Cunningham....after dealing Burns and losing Judy for him? I guess Duncan would be a possibility, but the Tribe seems to really like him still...

Really barring injury to someone (Grady, Hafner) or Chiz having just an absolutely unreal spring, that he will open in Columbus. IMO he could use a bit more seasoning there anyways too.

Your points are all really good Hermie. I don't believe you really answered your own question about Hannahan though. In the scenario where 1B is manned by either Pena or Kotchman, I think there is a strong possibility that Hannahan could be replaced by Lopez if Lopez shows enough to convince the Indians that he can be a decent portion of earlier days. I even agree with you that Chiz might be better served with some additional time in Columbus. But I don't think the Indians agree with that sentiment and that's who counts. I really appreciated the job Hannahan did last year and wholeheartedly wanted him on the 2012 team. Even though Lopez does not defend 3B near to Hannahan performance, there is no question that he could defend any other position equal to or better. And Lopez is a superior offensive option if his game is back on track. Not trying to start a fight. I am just saying that I do not believe it is cut and dried. You could well be right but ST could be decision time, not January. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:21 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I have mentioned this before...but I'm still not convinced that Chiz will open in Cleveland. If the Tribe were to sign a guy like Pena I think it almost makes more unlikely that he breaks camp in Cleveland.

Just look at how the roster would shake out.....Tribe will likely carry 13 hitters and 12 pitchers (as do most clubs).

Catcher: Santana, Marson (no surprise here)

OF: Choo (lock), Grady (lock barring injury), Branltey (lock barring a LF upgrade)....then you have Cunningham (out of options) and Duncan.

IF: Cabrera (lock), Kipinis (near lock), Donald (need a backup SS), Hannahan (arby eligible and wasn't non-tendered), and Pena (or whatever 1B we would sign in this scenario).

DH: Hafner (lock barring injury)

That's 13 guys......so who do you boot to have Chiz start at 3B? Can't be Donald as you need a backup SS....would you really boot Hanahan and his defense, especially if you're giving him $1M or so guaranteed? Would you dump Cunningham....after dealing Burns and losing Judy for him? I guess Duncan would be a possibility, but the Tribe seems to really like him still...

Really barring injury to someone (Grady, Hafner) or Chiz having just an absolutely unreal spring, that he will open in Columbus. IMO he could use a bit more seasoning there anyways too.

Your points are all really good Hermie. I don't believe you really answered your own question about Hannahan though. In the scenario where 1B is manned by either Pena or Kotchman, I think there is a strong possibility that Hannahan could be replaced by Lopez if Lopez shows enough to convince the Indians that he can be a decent portion of earlier days. I even agree with you that Chiz might be better served with some additional time in Columbus. But I don't think the Indians agree with that sentiment and that's who counts. I really appreciated the job Hannahan did last year and wholeheartedly wanted him on the 2012 team. Even though Lopez does not defend 3B near to Hannahan performance, there is no question that he could defend any other position equal to or better. And Lopez is a superior offensive option if his game is back on track. Not trying to start a fight. I am just saying that I do not believe it is cut and dried. You could well be right but ST could be decision time, not January. :pleasantry:


Well don't see why you'd want to downgrade from Hanny to Lopez....plus that doesn't make any difference on Chiz. Tribe didn't non-tender him and offered arby. They seem very set on paying him so I'd say he's as good a lock as anyone to be on the club. And while Lopez could play 2B better...don't think he'd be a better 1B from what I've seen and neither should be an option at short. To me Lopez only makes this club if Donald is traded or hurt (or Cabrera is hurt).

We'll see on Chiz....sounds to me like the indians do agree with me from what I've gathered. Lots of time left though. Doesn't sound like they are set at all on him making the club out camp though (like they seem to be with kipnis). I do agree, it's very early....but from how the Tribe has gone about this winter, seems like they aren't sold on Chiz opening day. Just what I've been hearing though....we'll see come ST as you said.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:55 am

I can imagine that if Chiz vastly outperforms Hannahan in spring training, Hannahan could be a roster casualty for someone the Indians need to add to the roster (could be one of the relievers we've brought in, Lopez or whoever else).

I think, though, that Duncan is probably more expendable. His only value to the team is as a lefty-basher, but he doesn't even do that as well as Jason Donald (.332 career wOBA vs. lefties vs .389 for Donald), and he doesn't do it much better than Cunningham (.320). To me, Duncan is the likely 40 man roster casualty if and when the Indians sign Kotchman or Pena.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:31 am

I still think we could see a trade or two by the Tribe that helps clear up some roster space, although that's not looking likely until ST. At what point can the Tribe place Carlos Carrasco on the 60 day DL? That will free one spot, as will other potential injuries that could occur, as much as I hate it, it is simply part of the game.

I'm not so sure Duncan would be the first dump, Cunningham still has to win a spot. Aaron Cunningham could be one guy that really helps out the OF or has simply cost the Tribe a cpl useful arms (Burns, Judy). Losing both certainly was a higher cost than anticipated. Cunningham could very well offer the Tribe an affordable and productive RH bat, he is a guy that plays with intensity and has some talent. Truth is he is likely a platoon OF, I don't see him as an everyday guy, but he is simply not a 4th OF either. IMO he is a guy that could take over as the primary LF and produce reasonable numbers... .265-275 avg 12-14hrs. IMO Brantley should be the 4th OF, not bc of Cunningham but bc the Tribe has brought in an upgrade.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:35 am

I would almost rather hand the job to Laporta than sign Kotchman, and I would be willing to take just about any option over Laporta. Kotchman had his best season in years last season and still only put up an .800 ops and only had 36 extra base hits in 563 plate appearances. A career .398 slugging percentage just isn't acceptable from a first basemen, even if his defense is solid. Don't get me wrong, I think having a good defense is important, but so is having a good offense. If we could sign him to a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training, that might not be bad, but I do not think he would be a good fit. His career numbers are a little better than Laporta's, but at least Laporta still has some upside.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:44 am

A left field platoon of Brantley/Cunningham does make a lot of sense. Brantley put up a .289-.335-.447 line against right handers versus .214-.282-.243 against left handers.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:28 am

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I have mentioned this before...but I'm still not convinced that Chiz will open in Cleveland. If the Tribe were to sign a guy like Pena I think it almost makes more unlikely that he breaks camp in Cleveland.

Just look at how the roster would shake out.....Tribe will likely carry 13 hitters and 12 pitchers (as do most clubs).

Catcher: Santana, Marson (no surprise here)

OF: Choo (lock), Grady (lock barring injury), Branltey (lock barring a LF upgrade)....then you have Cunningham (out of options) and Duncan.

IF: Cabrera (lock), Kipinis (near lock), Donald (need a backup SS), Hannahan (arby eligible and wasn't non-tendered), and Pena (or whatever 1B we would sign in this scenario).

DH: Hafner (lock barring injury)

That's 13 guys......so who do you boot to have Chiz start at 3B? Can't be Donald as you need a backup SS....would you really boot Hanahan and his defense, especially if you're giving him $1M or so guaranteed? Would you dump Cunningham....after dealing Burns and losing Judy for him? I guess Duncan would be a possibility, but the Tribe seems to really like him still...

Really barring injury to someone (Grady, Hafner) or Chiz having just an absolutely unreal spring, that he will open in Columbus. IMO he could use a bit more seasoning there anyways too.

Your points are all really good Hermie. I don't believe you really answered your own question about Hannahan though. In the scenario where 1B is manned by either Pena or Kotchman, I think there is a strong possibility that Hannahan could be replaced by Lopez if Lopez shows enough to convince the Indians that he can be a decent portion of earlier days. I even agree with you that Chiz might be better served with some additional time in Columbus. But I don't think the Indians agree with that sentiment and that's who counts. I really appreciated the job Hannahan did last year and wholeheartedly wanted him on the 2012 team. Even though Lopez does not defend 3B near to Hannahan performance, there is no question that he could defend any other position equal to or better. And Lopez is a superior offensive option if his game is back on track. Not trying to start a fight. I am just saying that I do not believe it is cut and dried. You could well be right but ST could be decision time, not January. :pleasantry:


Well don't see why you'd want to downgrade from Hanny to Lopez....plus that doesn't make any difference on Chiz. Tribe didn't non-tender him and offered arby. They seem very set on paying him so I'd say he's as good a lock as anyone to be on the club. And while Lopez could play 2B better...don't think he'd be a better 1B from what I've seen and neither should be an option at short. To me Lopez only makes this club if Donald is traded or hurt (or Cabrera is hurt).

We'll see on Chiz....sounds to me like the indians do agree with me from what I've gathered. Lots of time left though. Doesn't sound like they are set at all on him making the club out camp though (like they seem to be with kipnis). I do agree, it's very early....but from how the Tribe has gone about this winter, seems like they aren't sold on Chiz opening day. Just what I've been hearing though....we'll see come ST as you said.

Read what I said again Hermie. This is more like your responses of old than the recent Hermie. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:55 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I have mentioned this before...but I'm still not convinced that Chiz will open in Cleveland. If the Tribe were to sign a guy like Pena I think it almost makes more unlikely that he breaks camp in Cleveland.

Just look at how the roster would shake out.....Tribe will likely carry 13 hitters and 12 pitchers (as do most clubs).

Catcher: Santana, Marson (no surprise here)

OF: Choo (lock), Grady (lock barring injury), Branltey (lock barring a LF upgrade)....then you have Cunningham (out of options) and Duncan.

IF: Cabrera (lock), Kipinis (near lock), Donald (need a backup SS), Hannahan (arby eligible and wasn't non-tendered), and Pena (or whatever 1B we would sign in this scenario).

DH: Hafner (lock barring injury)

That's 13 guys......so who do you boot to have Chiz start at 3B? Can't be Donald as you need a backup SS....would you really boot Hanahan and his defense, especially if you're giving him $1M or so guaranteed? Would you dump Cunningham....after dealing Burns and losing Judy for him? I guess Duncan would be a possibility, but the Tribe seems to really like him still...

Really barring injury to someone (Grady, Hafner) or Chiz having just an absolutely unreal spring, that he will open in Columbus. IMO he could use a bit more seasoning there anyways too.

Your points are all really good Hermie. I don't believe you really answered your own question about Hannahan though. In the scenario where 1B is manned by either Pena or Kotchman, I think there is a strong possibility that Hannahan could be replaced by Lopez if Lopez shows enough to convince the Indians that he can be a decent portion of earlier days. I even agree with you that Chiz might be better served with some additional time in Columbus. But I don't think the Indians agree with that sentiment and that's who counts. I really appreciated the job Hannahan did last year and wholeheartedly wanted him on the 2012 team. Even though Lopez does not defend 3B near to Hannahan performance, there is no question that he could defend any other position equal to or better. And Lopez is a superior offensive option if his game is back on track. Not trying to start a fight. I am just saying that I do not believe it is cut and dried. You could well be right but ST could be decision time, not January. :pleasantry:


Well don't see why you'd want to downgrade from Hanny to Lopez....plus that doesn't make any difference on Chiz. Tribe didn't non-tender him and offered arby. They seem very set on paying him so I'd say he's as good a lock as anyone to be on the club. And while Lopez could play 2B better...don't think he'd be a better 1B from what I've seen and neither should be an option at short. To me Lopez only makes this club if Donald is traded or hurt (or Cabrera is hurt).

We'll see on Chiz....sounds to me like the indians do agree with me from what I've gathered. Lots of time left though. Doesn't sound like they are set at all on him making the club out camp though (like they seem to be with kipnis). I do agree, it's very early....but from how the Tribe has gone about this winter, seems like they aren't sold on Chiz opening day. Just what I've been hearing though....we'll see come ST as you said.

Read what I said again Hermie. This is more like your responses of old than the recent Hermie. :pleasantry:


Did read what you said. Just don't agree on the Lopez part.. It just makes no sense to even bring up Lopez in this dicussion. I was talking about why Chiz should start in AAA.....he plays 3B. Not 2B or SS. So the issue is who is better at 3B...and by a mile that is Hanny (well, maybe not by your defensive "assessment" from last year :rolleyes: ). If we were debating Kipnis here Lopez could be a factor....but not with Chiz. And not sure what the 1B we sign has to do with Lopez either....are you suggsting that if we sign Pena or Kotchman that Lopez would see time at 1B? Sure hope not, but that's how your post sounded. While Lopez or Hanny likely would see a couple games there, Santana would see way more. Hanny is better at 1B defensively and could play against lefties in a pinch there, same as Lopez. Remember, Hanny hit lefties all right last year.

I mean, sure if you want to start Chiz in Cleveland then suppose you could drop Hannahan (seems very unlikely from what I've heard)....but again, what's that got to do with Lopez? Plus, one reason I think even if Chiz makes the club Hanny sticks around is the Tribe's talk of using Donald in the OF vs lefties. Without Hanny on the roster, you'd be forced to play Chiz everyday vs lefties then, which I highly doubt the Tribe will want to do this year.

And plus....Hanny is arby eligible. The non-tender deadline is passed....are the Indians even allowed to flat out cut him now? I thought they had to go to arby or work out a deal before....but perhaps I am mistaken here. Just don't think the Tribe would string him along this far if they didn't fully intend to have Hannahan on the roster...

And which Hermie of old are you speaking of....the one that said the Indians wanted to open the 2010 season with Brantley in AAA (barring an injury), despite everyone disagreeing? Tribe signed Branyan and if it weren't for his injury Brantley would have been in Columbus (was sent there before April was out as he clearly was not ready for the bigs). Tribe was very secretive about their intentions with Branltey (as they always are with players). As I said, I agree 100% that it's about what the Indians think, not us fans....but from what I've gathered, it is the Indians that aren't sold on Chiz opening in Cleveland. Again though, a great spring can change anything.....

This current Chiz situation reminds me a lot of the Brantley one though. See the same thing happening except we already have a 3B option on the roster (who will make similar money to what Branyan got) in Hannahan. Like Branyan though....don't think Hanny will have the job all year, and very likely doesn't finish the season in Cleveland.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:13 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:It's pretty easy to see, Kotchman is clearly NOT a good idea.. Carlos Pena, with a projected $ 10 MM price tag and an embarrassingly bad split against LH'ers doesn't give anywhere close to the value Matt LaPorta provides..


The best thing for LaPorta and the Indians is to send him to AAA and hope he turns things around there. He will likely be needed again at some point in the season. But to go into the season and just hope he finally figures things out is not a good plan. He's too poor of a defender and too inconsistent of a hitter to trot out there every night and hope it clicks. It would be different if they were not planning on contending, but since they are they need to play the best options available (which prob includes Hannahan over Chisenhall too) to start the season.

I'm no Carlos Pena honk as he has his warts, but he is a CLEAR upgrade over LaPorta. Would rather have him any day than LaPorta right now. Much, much better defender and just much better at getting on-base in career (.352 SLG vs. .304 SLG) and much more consistent power (.486 SLG vs. 397 SLG). They are both windmills and susceptible to pitching, but Pena has a proven track record, is a much better defender, and has more power, and also is LH which fits in at Progressive Field better.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:37 pm

Tony, I respectfully disagree. The Tribe's contention possibillities lie solely on young players realizing their potential. Guys like Chisenhall, Kipnis, Brantley, and LaPorta. If these young players fail to perform it wouldn't matter if they signed Prince Fielder, they will not contend. LaPorta has nothing left to prove in AAA. His career numbers in the minors are likely better than Pena and Kotchman's combined. I say that unless someone comes out of nowhere and surprises, they should start the season with LaPorta a 1b. If he fails then you can send him down or cut ties alltogether, but as of now he is the best option they have IMO. I do think he will perform much better this year if healthy and given the chance as he is only 26. I also think that the money required to sign Pena would be better used on someone else like Oswalt. Signing Oswalt could secure the opportunity to trade some pitching for a young power hitter that doesn't strike out 180+ times a year.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:10 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:It's pretty easy to see, Kotchman is clearly NOT a good idea.. Carlos Pena, with a projected $ 10 MM price tag and an embarrassingly bad split against LH'ers doesn't give anywhere close to the value Matt LaPorta provides..


The best thing for LaPorta and the Indians is to send him to AAA and hope he turns things around there. He will likely be needed again at some point in the season. But to go into the season and just hope he finally figures things out is not a good plan. He's too poor of a defender and too inconsistent of a hitter to trot out there every night and hope it clicks. It would be different if they were not planning on contending, but since they are they need to play the best options available (which prob includes Hannahan over Chisenhall too) to start the season.

I'm no Carlos Pena honk as he has his warts, but he is a CLEAR upgrade over LaPorta. Would rather have him any day than LaPorta right now. Much, much better defender and just much better at getting on-base in career (.352 SLG vs. .304 SLG) and much more consistent power (.486 SLG vs. 397 SLG). They are both windmills and susceptible to pitching, but Pena has a proven track record, is a much better defender, and has more power, and also is LH which fits in at Progressive Field better.


Wrong path to follow.. respectfully.. The idea that Matt LaPorta has anything to gain by starting the season in AAA is without foundation. Matt needs to play at the ML level.. b\he needs his 500 AB's and the Indians need to stop screwing around with Carlos Santana as a 1B...

Carlos Pena is a most inept hitter against left handed pitchers and he has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD of this. In 2011 he showed his abilities and skills as a left handed hitter against a LHP are horrible.. With as many lefties in the lineup as the Indians already have, that just adds to the weakness. Don't promote weakness. Overall, Carlos Pena is not a CLEAR upgrade over even Shelly Duncan.. let alone Matt LaPorta.. Carlos Pena's defense as measured by the metrics used to determine how well a player defends his position are too subjective and should only marginally influence a close decision, not become the decision. Pena was a BETTER fielder at one time. I don't think so anymore. Besides, I'd rather have LaPorta over any one of Carlos Pena, Casey Kotchman or Derek Lee at this time.. There may be better options than these three out there and I'm certain CA is searching and working to acquire him.. But, if it's these three to select from as the starting 1B.. PASS ON ALL THREE.

You are promoting a BAD.. no..... VERY BAD PLAN..


BTW.. you need to change the Indians depth chart for the parent club. Lou Marson is NOT the starting catcher.. :shok:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Pena has a career .740 OPS against lefties. Not very good, but not horrible either (and yes I know about his numbers last year and the year before that). LaPorta has a .629 OPS against lefties and a bad track record against them in the minors. I wouldn't say that Pena's numbers versus southpaws should make a case for LaPorta.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:02 am

JP_Frost wrote:Pena has a career .740 OPS against lefties. Not very good, but not horrible either (and yes I know about his numbers last year and the year before that). LaPorta has a .629 OPS against lefties and a bad track record against them in the minors. I wouldn't say that Pena's numbers versus southpaws should make a case for LaPorta.


At 20 times or more for Pena's price tag.. yes it does..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:25 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Pena has a career .740 OPS against lefties. Not very good, but not horrible either (and yes I know about his numbers last year and the year before that). LaPorta has a .629 OPS against lefties and a bad track record against them in the minors. I wouldn't say that Pena's numbers versus southpaws should make a case for LaPorta.


At 20 times or more for Pena's price tag.. yes it does..


2011 Carlos Pena offers 3.4 more wins to this club vs 2011 Matt LaPorta (according to fangraphs), if you believe in WAR as a statistic. If the Indians can afford to bring him in, they ought to do it. I probably wouldn't do it for $10M, but it's not my money, and to be honest there's nothing better to spend that kind of money on right now. That's almost the difference between Asdrubal Cabrera vs a replacement player. That's not an insignificant upgrade.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:34 pm

The signings that have been announced on the team site for arb eligibles were interesting to me. My first reaction was that the $1M raise for Choo was excessive given his performance last year and doubling Chris Perez' salary was more than his performance earned. I thought that the Indians got off easily on Masterson and Smith. From what I see, AsCab will likely be the highest award from this years crop, as he of the dismal UZR should probably be, and Raffy will get a pretty good raise. With just a few numbers to go, it looks to me like the Tribe payroll will be somewhere between $65-70M in the absence of any significant signing.

Recent news also makes me think signing Pena will be prohibitively expensive and that the Indians might go for a less expensive OF target which would largely eliminate Duncan from OF play and limit him to DH/1B. And there is still Carlos Lee but I suspect the recent turn of events will benefit the Astros attempts to unload him.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:37 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:The signings that have been announced on the team site for arb eligibles were interesting to me. My first reaction was that the $1M raise for Choo was excessive given his performance last year and doubling Chris Perez' salary was more than his performance earned. I thought that the Indians got off easily on Masterson and Smith. From what I see, AsCab will likely be the highest award from this years crop, as he of the dismal UZR should probably be, and Raffy will get a pretty good raise. With just a few numbers to go, it looks to me like the Tribe payroll will be somewhere between $65-70M in the absence of any significant signing.

Recent news also makes me think signing Pena will be prohibitively expensive and that the Indians might go for a less expensive OF target which would largely eliminate Duncan from OF play and limit him to DH/1B. And there is still Carlos Lee but I suspect the recent turn of events will benefit the Astros attempts to unload him.


While I agree on Choo, sadly that's just how arby works. I actually thought he was gonna get $5M. Agree completely on Masterson, even as a first time guy I figured he'd crack $4M after the year he had, plus his strong finish in 2010 (plus solid fielding independent numbers). To me this is one reason why the Indians should still look at extending guys. Some say the Tribe got "burned" by the Grady deal, but if you look at what guys will get in arby, we made out rather well on that Grady deal.

Bit surprised at how much Perez got but not overly, had him at $4M, closers are just overrated in the arby process....with two more arby years left, man is he gonna get pricey. Smith...came in at what I thought (lil high actually). As much as closers are overvalued in arby, guys like Smith tend to be undervalued, especially since he made so little last year (in his first arby year).

Will be intersting on AC...thought he and Choo would both end up with $5M. May be a bit high for AC given what he made last year but solid year, so could end up the highest guy as you said.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Looks like Cabrera filed at $5.2M and the Tribe countered with $3.75M. Sounds like we could have him for less than Choo afterall...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:07 am

Hermie13 wrote:Looks like Cabrera filed at $5.2M and the Tribe countered with $3.75M. Sounds like we could have him for less than Choo afterall...

4.75 is my cal, Indians seem to be content to over pay and establish some good will
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:08 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Pena has a career .740 OPS against lefties. Not very good, but not horrible either (and yes I know about his numbers last year and the year before that). LaPorta has a .629 OPS against lefties and a bad track record against them in the minors. I wouldn't say that Pena's numbers versus southpaws should make a case for LaPorta.


At 20 times or more for Pena's price tag.. yes it does..


Laporta has been given multiple chances, now he needs to show he is worth another one. At this point I woudl feel better about him in AAA. Santana at 1B and Marson behind the plate than Laporta at 1B. Heck I would rather see Duncan play there than Laporta right now
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:17 am

GeronimoSon wrote:BTW.. you need to change the Indians depth chart for the parent club. Lou Marson is NOT the starting catcher.. :shok:


He is until they sign a 1B because right now it is Santana/Duncan as the 1B combo until they sign someone. So that's why Marson is listed as such for now.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:22 am

JP_Frost wrote:Pena has a career .740 OPS against lefties. Not very good, but not horrible either (and yes I know about his numbers last year and the year before that). LaPorta has a .629 OPS against lefties and a bad track record against them in the minors. I wouldn't say that Pena's numbers versus southpaws should make a case for LaPorta.


Thank you.

Also, keep in mind, LaPorta has had pretty much the same minor league career as Pena and Kotchman from both a numbers standpoint and the pedigree as a Top 10-30 prospect in all baseball for several years. Sometimes, like Kotchman and Pena, players underwhelm and don't reach their lofty prospect status in the minors.

There is not one person I have talked to, and it has been many, that believes LaPorta has a chance to resurrect himself. At most, a lot of people think he could be a Duncan-type guy as a LF/1B/DH guy off the bench. I fear a lot of people are simply holding out hope along the same lines they did with Andy Marte in the hopes the Indians have something to show for the CC trade. The unfortunate reality in baseball is teams that want to win can't wait 2-3 years for a player to get it. He has to show something both subjectively and objectively, and to date LaPorta simply has not. Which is why unless there are injuries this spring to Duncan or the 1B they sign, he is going to start the year in Columbus.
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