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Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:29 pm

Hmm.. having the athletic skills without being able to put it together seems to be the calling card for BJ Upton. While there are markets for him.. I agree with Hermie.. just not here.. You can also add that Upton will be somewhat expensive. His 2011 salary was 4.68 MM in his ARB II season.. so look for a plus $ 6 - $ 8 MM one year deal. minimum, with him becoming a FA after the 2012 season.. Pass on BJ..

w/r to Donald.. sure, he's a young spare piece and gamer that needs to play.. If not for the utter lack of a SS candidate in the upper minors (i.e. near MLB ready), moving him would make what once appears to be a position of depth and performance to being shallow and require the Indians to rely on a AAAA player like Little Luis Valbuena's or a vet pickup.. ala Orlando Cabrera.. The last two season, the Indians have seen Asdrubal go down with injury and fatigue, respectively. Having the depth that JD provides for 2B, SS and 3B along with Hoover Hannahan as a back up at 3B/1B makes the most sense for a contending club..

In other words.. don't trade JD, either alone or in a package, unless that "impact" bat that the Indians are searching for comes back and hope like hell a middle IF'er who can play SS is out there..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:43 pm

danh8 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:I think one of Cuddyer/Willingham will be looked at for 1B.....and they will part ways with Sizemore and try to finish off a trade for BJ Upton, a guy they were very much in on before the July deadline.


I've heard that Sizemore is as good as signed here for a few more years on an incentive laden contract.
Grady has a chance this offseason to come in in the best condition he has been in, in years. Although, I fear his knees will prevent him from being an everyday player. I'm hoping the Indians see him as a guy that sits when convenient against lefties to rest knees next season...

Re: Upton ...I was told, as you obviously were, that we just about had a deal done for Upton ...and have already left it at we will talk again this offseason. I was told this by a guy that would obviously know firsthand. The future trade could include more than just Upton coming here of substance as well, I was told.
The Rays and their farm system remain one of the best in baseball ( KC remains the best of the best), even with the promotion of starting pitchers Hellickson and Moore. The Rays find themselves in a position where they have eight or nine SP's for five spots.. Price, Moore and Hellickson are locks as they are young, cheap and VERY GOOD. A trade with the Rays would be intriguing..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:11 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Hmm.. having the athletic skills without being able to put it together seems to be the calling card for BJ Upton. While there are markets for him.. I agree with Hermie.. just not here.. You can also add that Upton will be somewhat expensive. His 2011 salary was 4.68 MM in his ARB II season.. so look for a plus $ 6 - $ 8 MM one year deal. minimum, with him becoming a FA after the 2012 season.. Pass on BJ..

w/r to Donald.. sure, he's a young spare piece and gamer that needs to play.. If not for the utter lack of a SS candidate in the upper minors (i.e. near MLB ready), moving him would make what once appears to be a position of depth and performance to being shallow and require the Indians to rely on a AAAA player like Little Luis Valbuena's or a vet pickup.. ala Orlando Cabrera.. The last two season, the Indians have seen Asdrubal go down with injury and fatigue, respectively. Having the depth that JD provides for 2B, SS and 3B along with Hoover Hannahan as a back up at 3B/1B makes the most sense for a contending club..

In other words.. don't trade JD, either alone or in a package, unless that "impact" bat that the Indians are searching for comes back and hope like hell a middle IF'er who can play SS is out there..


Just want to clarify that I'm not against getting Upton, actually think he'd be a great add for this club. Just was not a fan of giving up as much as being rumored on here.


Still think Donald is a guy you look to include in a deal for a bat. Has to be a good deal obviously, but he's a backup here and value may not get any better. Always guys out there to get. Omar could be out there, Punto is a free agent again, John Mcdonald will be out there. Yeah Donald's bat is better but you lose defense (which has been a big disappointment IMO this year). Don't have to move Donald obviously...just don't see him as a need. Still have Phelps around who you can work with defensively as well. I'd prefer to move him, but just see Donald as having more value in a trade personally.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:09 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Hmm.. having the athletic skills without being able to put it together seems to be the calling card for BJ Upton. While there are markets for him.. I agree with Hermie.. just not here.. You can also add that Upton will be somewhat expensive. His 2011 salary was 4.68 MM in his ARB II season.. so look for a plus $ 6 - $ 8 MM one year deal. minimum, with him becoming a FA after the 2012 season.. Pass on BJ..

w/r to Donald.. sure, he's a young spare piece and gamer that needs to play.. If not for the utter lack of a SS candidate in the upper minors (i.e. near MLB ready), moving him would make what once appears to be a position of depth and performance to being shallow and require the Indians to rely on a AAAA player like Little Luis Valbuena's or a vet pickup.. ala Orlando Cabrera.. The last two season, the Indians have seen Asdrubal go down with injury and fatigue, respectively. Having the depth that JD provides for 2B, SS and 3B along with Hoover Hannahan as a back up at 3B/1B makes the most sense for a contending club..

In other words.. don't trade JD, either alone or in a package, unless that "impact" bat that the Indians are searching for comes back and hope like hell a middle IF'er who can play SS is out there..


Just want to clarify that I'm not against getting Upton, actually think he'd be a great add for this club. Just was not a fan of giving up as much as being rumored on here.


Still think Donald is a guy you look to include in a deal for a bat. Has to be a good deal obviously, but he's a backup here and value may not get any better. Always guys out there to get. Omar could be out there, Punto is a free agent again, John Mcdonald will be out there. Yeah Donald's bat is better but you lose defense (which has been a big disappointment IMO this year). Don't have to move Donald obviously...just don't see him as a need. Still have Phelps around who you can work with defensively as well. I'd prefer to move him, but just see Donald as having more value in a trade personally.


Another Indians shortstop who has disappointing defense.....

What were the chances?... :fool:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:09 pm

If Acta killed the Upton deal - wow I really don't believe it. That is a terrible move, you can call it hindsight if you want but if I am told the deal for Upton included Raffy, Donald (still had Ocab to back-up SS) and/or PTBN(L)..I do it. I 100% DO IT. Even better if it is Raffy, Valbuena and ??? - Really is a no-brainer. Donald isn't goint to get Kipnis or Acabs job EVER and if for some reason Chiz can't cut it odds are there would better options to cover that.
Oh and we have a solid enough bullpen absorbing the loss of Raffy would not have been that big of a deal. We trade Pom and White and still dont end up with a RH bat when we could have rolled the dice on Upton for Raffy and Donald? Uggg.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:19 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Still think Donald is a guy you look to include in a deal for a bat. Has to be a good deal obviously, but he's a backup here and value may not get any better. Always guys out there to get. Omar could be out there, Punto is a free agent again, John Mcdonald will be out there. Yeah Donald's bat is better but you lose defense (which has been a big disappointment IMO this year). Don't have to move Donald obviously...just don't see him as a need. Still have Phelps around who you can work with defensively as well. I'd prefer to move him, but just see Donald as having more value in a trade personally.


Another Indians shortstop who has disappointing defense.....

What were the chances?... :fool:


I was saying I've been disappointed in the Tribe's defense as a whole this year, not just Donald's. Admit, the way I wrote that didn't make this clear.

Obviously there were a few exceptions (Hannahan the big one), but I felt last year that the defense was the area that needed the most improvement...and still feel that way after this season.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:18 am

I was saying I've been disappointed in the Tribe's defense as a whole this year


Yeah. Santana was marginal at best behind the dish both in terms of preventing wild pitches and throwing out base stealers. Hell, whenever he launched a throw to second I was just hoping it didn't end up in center field.

OCab had no range at second and when they gave Phelps a shot he was worse. Kipnis hasn't been too bad, but he's in there for his bat.

Duncan has been a liability in left for the most part. Every fly ball is an adventure. Zeke Carerra has been disappointing in center. I assumed with his speed he would be excellent defensively, but he appears to have no clue as to what a cutoff man is and he doesn't seem to get a good jump on the ball. He even had Shelly Duncan yelling at him the other day for screwing up a routine fly ball to Duncan.

Before Choo got hurt he messed up a few plays in right field, mainly by taking bad angles to the ball.

It has definitely not been a stellar year defensively, with the exception of Hannahan and a handful of highlight reel plays by Asdrubal.

Speaking of errors, they also need a new third base coach. Watching a parade of Tribe base runners getting thrown out at home by Royals outfielders got really old.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:00 am

Prosecutor wrote:
I was saying I've been disappointed in the Tribe's defense as a whole this year


Yeah. Santana was marginal at best behind the dish both in terms of preventing wild pitches and throwing out base stealers. Hell, whenever he launched a throw to second I was just hoping it didn't end up in center field.

OCab had no range at second and when they gave Phelps a shot he was worse. Kipnis hasn't been too bad, but he's in there for his bat.

Duncan has been a liability in left for the most part. Every fly ball is an adventure. Zeke Carerra has been disappointing in center. I assumed with his speed he would be excellent defensively, but he appears to have no clue as to what a cutoff man is and he doesn't seem to get a good jump on the ball. He even had Shelly Duncan yelling at him the other day for screwing up a routine fly ball to Duncan.

Before Choo got hurt he messed up a few plays in right field, mainly by taking bad angles to the ball.

It has definitely not been a stellar year defensively, with the exception of Hannahan and a handful of highlight reel plays by Asdrubal.

Speaking of errors, they also need a new third base coach. Watching a parade of Tribe base runners getting thrown out at home by Royals outfielders got really old.

I agree with you guys about the defense which probably won't improve a great deal next year. Really surprised that you would call out Carrera about his defense and not mention that the player the Indians counted on to play CF was likely the worst defensive CF in MLB. Rookies tend to get better so there is some hope for Carrera, Kipnis and Chisenhall but Sizemore got progressively worse as the year went on. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby elrod enchilada » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:09 pm

If the Tribe is going to make a deal for a right-handed power hitter this off-season--and I think that is a jolly good idea-- rather than unload a young stud like Chisenhall, why not trade Chris Perez? He probably has decent market value, and the Tribe is deep in the bullpen at all levels of the organization. Vinnie P would be the closer to start 2012 and we could take it from there. It is likely that both Putnam and Hagadone will be ready for the bigs in 2012, and there is a herd of studs right behind them in the system, including a few flame-throwers that make Chris Perez look like Dick Tidrow.

It is a risk, true, but at least we are trading at a position we we have a surplus of talent. We do not have a surplus of Lonnie Chisenhall type bats in our system.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:24 pm

elrod enchilada wrote:If the Tribe is going to make a deal for a right-handed power hitter this off-season--and I think that is a jolly good idea-- rather than unload a young stud like Chisenhall, why not trade Chris Perez? He probably has decent market value, and the Tribe is deep in the bullpen at all levels of the organization. Vinnie P would be the closer to start 2012 and we could take it from there. It is likely that both Putnam and Hagadone will be ready for the bigs in 2012, and there is a herd of studs right behind them in the system, including a few flame-throwers that make Chris Perez look like Dick Tidrow.

It is a risk, true, but at least we are trading at a position we we have a surplus of talent. We do not have a surplus of Lonnie Chisenhall type bats in our system.


I agree that Chris Perez seems like a good trade candidate. I'm just afraid that if the Tribe is making Rafael Perez and Joe Smith available they will not want to deal Chris. There are a number of teams looking for a closer and luckily alot of them still overvalue players with some success in that role. Hopefully the Tribe FO doesn't.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby theshow » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:14 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I agree that Chris Perez seems like a good trade candidate. I'm just afraid that if the Tribe is making Rafael Perez and Joe Smith available they will not want to deal Chris. There are a number of teams looking for a closer and luckily alot of them still overvalue players with some success in that role. Hopefully the Tribe FO doesn't.


I think it is fairly obvious from the insane deal that Kerry Wood got, the tribe FO does overvalue closers. Perez is going nowhere. Also, a good bullpen is something you don't fully appreciate until you have a bad one. But I do agree that so are more likely to replace Perez than a position player approaching free agency like AsCab or Choo.


elrod enchilada wrote:and there is a herd of studs right behind them in the system, including a few flame-throwers that make Chris Perez look like Dick Tidrow


Are there really? If I had a nickel for every minor leaguer who was going to be the next big thing i'd be rich. Even Tony would agree prospects flame out way more often then they hit.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:31 pm

Carrera at the moment is fundamentally poor at the plate and in the field. Don't know enough about his mental capacity or maturity to guess if he has the ability to improve. Great speed, but disappointing so far.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby elrod enchilada » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:16 pm

Of course the farm system is a crap shoot and only a small percentage of players make it. With the numbers we have we ought to be in good shape. Here is the bullpen situation off the top of my head from the full season teams. It is unclear what we get from the short season level for the pen at this point. Unless there is a massive egg-laying in the farm system, we are going to have guys backed up in the system for lack of spaces in the level above them.


Major Leagues in 2012:
Nick Hagadone
Zach Putnam
Josh Judy (marginal case)

Stud talent for 2013 or 2014 or 2015:
Trey Haley
Bryce Stowell
Rob Bryson
Kelvin De La Cruz
Cody Allen

Some talent and legit prospects for now (at least equal to Pestano and Herrmann at similar stage):
Kyle Blair
C.C. Lee
Chris Jones
Bryan Price
Kyle Petter
Francisco Jimenez

Stud Performance, less-than-stud stuff—have to take seriously as along as they dominate:
Cory Burns
Preston Guilmet
Clayton Ehlert

Intriguing Dudes, very much longshots but still in the game:
Adam Miller
Matt Langwell
Kyle Landis
Toru Murata
Nick Sarianides
Tyler Sturdevant
Eric Berger
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:55 pm

elrod enchilada wrote:Of course the farm system is a crap shoot and only a small percentage of players make it. With the numbers we have we ought to be in good shape. Here is the bullpen situation off the top of my head from the full season teams. It is unclear what we get from the short season level for the pen at this point. Unless there is a massive egg-laying in the farm system, we are going to have guys backed up in the system for lack of spaces in the level above them.


Major Leagues in 2012:
Nick Hagadone
Zach Putnam
Josh Judy (marginal case)

Stud talent for 2013 or 2014 or 2015:
Trey Haley
Bryce Stowell
Rob Bryson
Kelvin De La Cruz
Cody Allen

Some talent and legit prospects for now (at least equal to Pestano and Herrmann at similar stage):
Kyle Blair
C.C. Lee
Chris Jones
Bryan Price
Kyle Petter
Francisco Jimenez

Stud Performance, less-than-stud stuff—have to take seriously as along as they dominate:
Cory Burns
Preston Guilmet
Clayton Ehlert

Intriguing Dudes, very much longshots but still in the game:
Adam Miller
Matt Langwell
Kyle Landis
Toru Murata
Nick Sarianides
Tyler Sturdevant
Eric Berger


A couple of things here seem a little off. CC Lee has to be our #1 relief prospect right now. Makings of an excellent set-up man or even closer possibly. I wouldn't call Trey Haley a stud - he is in the 2nd tier of relief prospects. Looks about right though.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby danh8 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:49 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
I was saying I've been disappointed in the Tribe's defense as a whole this year


Yeah. Santana was marginal at best behind the dish both in terms of preventing wild pitches and throwing out base stealers. Hell, whenever he launched a throw to second I was just hoping it didn't end up in center field.

OCab had no range at second and when they gave Phelps a shot he was worse. Kipnis hasn't been too bad, but he's in there for his bat.

Duncan has been a liability in left for the most part. Every fly ball is an adventure. Zeke Carerra has been disappointing in center. I assumed with his speed he would be excellent defensively, but he appears to have no clue as to what a cutoff man is and he doesn't seem to get a good jump on the ball. He even had Shelly Duncan yelling at him the other day for screwing up a routine fly ball to Duncan.

Before Choo got hurt he messed up a few plays in right field, mainly by taking bad angles to the ball.

It has definitely not been a stellar year defensively, with the exception of Hannahan and a handful of highlight reel plays by Asdrubal.

Speaking of errors, they also need a new third base coach. Watching a parade of Tribe base runners getting thrown out at home by Royals outfielders got really old.

I agree with you guys about the defense which probably won't improve a great deal next year. Really surprised that you would call out Carrera about his defense and not mention that the player the Indians counted on to play CF was likely the worst defensive CF in MLB. Rookies tend to get better so there is some hope for Carrera, Kipnis and Chisenhall but Sizemore got progressively worse as the year went on. :pleasantry:



Very very dissapointed in Zeke Carrera's defense. Thought he would be far better. First off, he plays about the deepest centerfield I've seen, and Acta has a propensity to always play far deeper than I like in the first place. But, Carrera is way deeper than he should be and it never got corrected all season long... Even after the depth of all of our outfielders cost Chris Perez, IMHO, about three saves minimum after the all star break, watching not only balls that would have been outs turn into singles, but also watching players advance on the bases due to our extreme depth, most noticeably late in games where we hold a lead.

It's the baseball version of "prevent" defense that pisses me off to no end...and Acta loves to do it. Not a fan.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:43 pm

danh8 wrote:Re: Upton ...I was told, as you obviously were, that we just about had a deal done for Upton ...and have already left it at we will talk again this offseason. I was told this by a guy that would obviously know firsthand. The future trade could include more than just Upton coming here of substance as well, I was told.


Throwing a possible name out there for this.....Jeff Niemann.

Batted some injuires but when on the mound is effective. Would be a solid #3 and insurance in case Carmona struggles and/or Tomlin is ineffective. I would think the Rays would be willing to part with him too as A) he's arby eligible and B) Cobb looked very good, plus still have Moore as a 6th guy.

If the Tribe did decline Grady's optoin and move on...you really won't up the payroll by adding those two either. Upton would get around $6-6.5M or so. Niemann $3M or so in first year. Payroll still could be under $65M.

Still don't think you bring in Upton and bring back Grady unless you've parted with Choo or Brantley (and losing Choo doesn't improve the offense at all IMO). But never say never.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby jellis » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:07 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
danh8 wrote:Re: Upton ...I was told, as you obviously were, that we just about had a deal done for Upton ...and have already left it at we will talk again this offseason. I was told this by a guy that would obviously know firsthand. The future trade could include more than just Upton coming here of substance as well, I was told.


Throwing a possible name out there for this.....Jeff Niemann.

Batted some injuires but when on the mound is effective. Would be a solid #3 and insurance in case Carmona struggles and/or Tomlin is ineffective. I would think the Rays would be willing to part with him too as A) he's arby eligible and B) Cobb looked very good, plus still have Moore as a 6th guy.

If the Tribe did decline Grady's optoin and move on...you really won't up the payroll by adding those two either. Upton would get around $6-6.5M or so. Niemann $3M or so in first year. Payroll still could be under $65M.

Still don't think you bring in Upton and bring back Grady unless you've parted with Choo or Brantley (and losing Choo doesn't improve the offense at all IMO). But never say never.



rays think enough of him to make him game 1 starter. They got Pirce, shields, Moore, Neiman, Hellickson. I doubt they move any of them.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Before we go off on the deal criz, I also heard that there was a MI on the 40 (likely Donald but possibly Valbuena) and a catching prospect (likely Chen who was having injury issues) involved. Perhaps Dan can elaborate on what he heard to see if we are on similar pages. Sometimes the timing just is not right. FWIW, I understand it was Acta that killed the deal, not the FO. I am not critical in this case because Acta had Brantley at the time and Choo was supposedly returning in great shape in a few weeks and he did not want to risk his stretch run on an untested LHR. Hindsight is easier and I suspect it will be easier to trade Raffy but Donald looks like a keeper to me even though there are other MI options. But you are right that it did not work out for the Tribe. :pleasantry:


Even in hindsight I don't think I'd have dealt all that for Upton. Great talent that would have helped the offense, but that's still a ton to give up. Lefty relievers like Perez have fetched a ton on their own, wouldn't have part with much more there.

Agree that he could be trade bait with Hagadone around. Hasn't really wowed but hell of an arm. Disagree a bit on Donald. Do like him a ton, but with him looking like a backup long-term in Cleveland I think you gotta look at moving him this winter (though clearly don't have to trade him). Don't need a bunch of young guys on the bench. Can find a vet (like a Hannahan) that would do just was well in a reserve role. Not enough ABs to go around for their to be much of a difference.

My basis for Donald is his value to Cleveland specifically rather than exceptional value as a player. He is the only Indian IF who truly hits LHP much better than RHP. We can argue the defensive ability but I feel comfortable with his ability to play all three spots and I do not about any other player on the roster or in the upper minors, including Hannahan. He is an ideal complement, IMO, for Chisenhall and Kipnis and can give AsCab more rest than he had this year. Yeah, we can go out and find a vet but will he be as valuable offensively, inexpensive and meet the same criteria. IF you feel it is worth spending the resources of the Indians for a veteran, I won't argue but there are places I would rather look at. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:41 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:My basis for Donald is his value to Cleveland specifically rather than exceptional value as a player. He is the only Indian IF who truly hits LHP much better than RHP. We can argue the defensive ability but I feel comfortable with his ability to play all three spots and I do not about any other player on the roster or in the upper minors, including Hannahan. He is an ideal complement, IMO, for Chisenhall and Kipnis and can give AsCab more rest than he had this year. Yeah, we can go out and find a vet but will he be as valuable offensively, inexpensive and meet the same criteria. IF you feel it is worth spending the resources of the Indians for a veteran, I won't argue but there are places I would rather look at. :pleasantry:


+1

Donald is a gamer that needs more and more opportunities to player HERE.. It wouldn't be a surprise to hear about other clubs looking at JD as a "throw in" for any deal.. they see what he is.. a gamer with good hands and feet that can play at any one of three spots now.. and perhaps, as he physically matures and gets bigger & stronger, gets some time as an OF'er down the road..

Keep JD.. spend the resources elsewhere..btw...

What places?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:49 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:My basis for Donald is his value to Cleveland specifically rather than exceptional value as a player. He is the only Indian IF who truly hits LHP much better than RHP. We can argue the defensive ability but I feel comfortable with his ability to play all three spots and I do not about any other player on the roster or in the upper minors, including Hannahan. He is an ideal complement, IMO, for Chisenhall and Kipnis and can give AsCab more rest than he had this year. Yeah, we can go out and find a vet but will he be as valuable offensively, inexpensive and meet the same criteria. IF you feel it is worth spending the resources of the Indians for a veteran, I won't argue but there are places I would rather look at. :pleasantry:


+1

Donald is a gamer that needs more and more opportunities to player HERE.. It wouldn't be a surprise to hear about other clubs looking at JD as a "throw in" for any deal.. they see what he is.. a gamer with good hands and feet that can play at any one of three spots now.. and perhaps, as he physically matures and gets bigger & stronger, gets some time as an OF'er down the road..

Keep JD.. spend the resources elsewhere..btw...

What places?



Well I have always like Donald and was probably the loudest guy on here when there were rumblings he wouldn't get the starting 3B at the end of ST... But he got hurt and looked what happened.... So.

Where are you going to play him here?

2B- Kipnis - well that says it. This would be the most "valuable" position in the IF for Donald and he can definitely handle it.

3rd - Not much experience but not that concerned about it he could prolly handle it ok if he hit enough.. Though it doesn't concern me I am sure Lonnie Chisenhall is well aware of the situation. Oh and we already have a top defensive 3B in all of baseball as a back up. At least I hope thats the plan. Also you can't dismiss the possibility Hoover Hannahan could have an even better offensive year next season. How much of a real benefit that is, is well.....

SS - He has had alot of time here in his baseball career. As far as being a ML SS he is a back-up. Oh ( my worst metaphor) and besides Acab picks up those fares. He can back-up SS and does, but this is the only spot (bench SS) that is open for next season. Kind of a waste of talent IMO, and other teams (I hope) will see that too.

I love his mentality and think he would be an awesome guy to have on the bench, but another team may envision a larger/regular role for him.... As far as abosrbing the loss - really think Kipnis is a lock, Chiz might struggle a bit if you want to be negative, but he is the starter next year. Unless we sign someone else.

There isn't a spot anywhere he could play everyday (or close to it) next season for Cleveland unless something really, really, really crappy/crazy happens, like Chiz getting traded.... Also Phelps is definitely in the picture, and in a fairly similar situation position-wise.

Because he is as you accurately put "a gamer", his true value as an Indian will prolly be trade value. I'm not saying give him away by any means, but its hard to imagine any deal for the kind of ML talent the indians need would not involve Donald and/or Phelps.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:45 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:My basis for Donald is his value to Cleveland specifically rather than exceptional value as a player. He is the only Indian IF who truly hits LHP much better than RHP. We can argue the defensive ability but I feel comfortable with his ability to play all three spots and I do not about any other player on the roster or in the upper minors, including Hannahan. He is an ideal complement, IMO, for Chisenhall and Kipnis and can give AsCab more rest than he had this year. Yeah, we can go out and find a vet but will he be as valuable offensively, inexpensive and meet the same criteria. IF you feel it is worth spending the resources of the Indians for a veteran, I won't argue but there are places I would rather look at. :pleasantry:


+1

Donald is a gamer that needs more and more opportunities to player HERE.. It wouldn't be a surprise to hear about other clubs looking at JD as a "throw in" for any deal.. they see what he is.. a gamer with good hands and feet that can play at any one of three spots now.. and perhaps, as he physically matures and gets bigger & stronger, gets some time as an OF'er down the road..

Keep JD.. spend the resources elsewhere..btw...

What places?



Well I have always like Donald and was probably the loudest guy on here when there were rumblings he wouldn't get the starting 3B at the end of ST... But he got hurt and looked what happened.... So.

Where are you going to play him here?

2B- Kipnis - well that says it. This would be the most "valuable" position in the IF for Donald and he can definitely handle it.

3rd - Not much experience but not that concerned about it he could prolly handle it ok if he hit enough.. Though it doesn't concern me I am sure Lonnie Chisenhall is well aware of the situation. Oh and we already have a top defensive 3B in all of baseball as a back up. At least I hope thats the plan. Also you can't dismiss the possibility Hoover Hannahan could have an even better offensive year next season. How much of a real benefit that is, is well.....

SS - He has had alot of time here in his baseball career. As far as being a ML SS he is a back-up. Oh ( my worst metaphor) and besides Acab picks up those fares. He can back-up SS and does, but this is the only spot (bench SS) that is open for next season. Kind of a waste of talent IMO, and other teams (I hope) will see that too.

I love his mentality and think he would be an awesome guy to have on the bench, but another team may envision a larger/regular role for him.... As far as abosrbing the loss - really think Kipnis is a lock, Chiz might struggle a bit if you want to be negative, but he is the starter next year. Unless we sign someone else.

There isn't a spot anywhere he could play everyday (or close to it) next season for Cleveland unless something really, really, really crappy/crazy happens, like Chiz getting traded.... Also Phelps is definitely in the picture, and in a fairly similar situation position-wise.

Because he is as you accurately put "a gamer", his true value as an Indian will prolly be trade value. I'm not saying give him away by any means, but its hard to imagine any deal for the kind of ML talent the indians need would not involve Donald and/or Phelps.

I have already made my view known but has I think it is possible that he could spend time as DH against LHP if not in the field. No other player in the organization has his OPS against LHP that I see.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:06 am

Cabrera could probably use a few more games off next season and Donald had nice numbers vs leftys. I like Donald as INF utility man, spelling Kip and Cabrera a couple of games a week. Nice insurance also if injuries happen...and they probably will, so he should get ABs. Hard for me to trade this guy unless he's part of a deal that we can't refuse.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:22 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:My basis for Donald is his value to Cleveland specifically rather than exceptional value as a player. He is the only Indian IF who truly hits LHP much better than RHP. We can argue the defensive ability but I feel comfortable with his ability to play all three spots and I do not about any other player on the roster or in the upper minors, including Hannahan. He is an ideal complement, IMO, for Chisenhall and Kipnis and can give AsCab more rest than he had this year. Yeah, we can go out and find a vet but will he be as valuable offensively, inexpensive and meet the same criteria. IF you feel it is worth spending the resources of the Indians for a veteran, I won't argue but there are places I would rather look at. :pleasantry:


Don't disagree with what you're saying about Donald (though Hannahan did hit much better against lefties this year than righties too). And if the Indians get a bat for LF/1B or whatnot and keep Donald I'd be fine with that.

But just saying, I wouldn't be opposed to moving him to get that bat. I think you'd agree, Tribe won't be able to make a big splash in free agency. Slim chance they could land one of Willingham or Cuddyer but that would be the biggest they could do (at least IMO).

Seems like a trade may be the better route for the Tribe for money reasons and the fact that there aren't a ton of good options out there this year. I think money wise it could be cheaper to trade a guy like Donald for a bat and sign a vet utility guy for Kearns-like money. Obviously here I'm assuming Donald can bring someone back and that a team really values him, which may not be the case. But again, just throwing that out there.

I'd be willing to take a hit in offense to the utility spot if it gets us an upgrade in the starting lineup. Also just not sure how much time Donald will be able to get unless AC or Kipnis struggle. Seems as though Hanny is locked in as the backup to Chiz and if he keeps hitting lefties like he did this year, he's a great comp to Chiz as well.

And not really a big deal, but Santana did have a slightly higher OPS against lefties this year. Donald was a close second (didn't realize he was that high). Pretty impressive...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:39 pm

jellis wrote:rays think enough of him to make him game 1 starter. They got Pirce, shields, Moore, Neiman, Hellickson. I doubt they move any of them.


Rays thought very highly of Garza too, but traded him because they felt they had 6 ML caliber starters (with some prospects coming up) and he was getting expensive.

They may not move any of them....but you didn't even mention Wade Davis.

No such thing as too much starting piching obviously, but when you're on an even tighter budget than the Indians (which the Rays typically are), you sometimes have to move the expensive arms.

Shields has a decent contract, a fan fav, and an Ace (11 CGs).
Price has been an Ace and has that potential still, has few years left of controlability too.
Moore as you said is starting game 1, team control, cheap, and good.
Hellickson could be rookie of the year, cheap, good, team control.
Davis is young and locked up. Doubt they trade him.

That doesn't even mention Cobb who went 9 starts and looked solid.

So do they move one of those 6 above? Put one in the bullpen? Send Davis and Cobb back to AAA? Or do they move the arby eligible Niemann who hasn't put a full healthy season in yet?

I'd bet on that last one.....but you never know. Not saying he'll be dealt to Cleveland, but his name came up in trade rumors this summer (and last winter among others). Nationals actually make a lot of sense, especially if Upton is involved too. Could dangle Ian Desmond (Rays aren't too strong at SS) along with some prospects. Or even a Michael Morese (Rays could use a DH). Heck, maybe they'd even be willing to move Storen.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:32 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:My basis for Donald is his value to Cleveland specifically rather than exceptional value as a player. He is the only Indian IF who truly hits LHP much better than RHP. We can argue the defensive ability but I feel comfortable with his ability to play all three spots and I do not about any other player on the roster or in the upper minors, including Hannahan. He is an ideal complement, IMO, for Chisenhall and Kipnis and can give AsCab more rest than he had this year. Yeah, we can go out and find a vet but will he be as valuable offensively, inexpensive and meet the same criteria. IF you feel it is worth spending the resources of the Indians for a veteran, I won't argue but there are places I would rather look at. :pleasantry:


Don't disagree with what you're saying about Donald (though Hannahan did hit much better against lefties this year than righties too). And if the Indians get a bat for LF/1B or whatnot and keep Donald I'd be fine with that.

But just saying, I wouldn't be opposed to moving him to get that bat. I think you'd agree, Tribe won't be able to make a big splash in free agency. Slim chance they could land one of Willingham or Cuddyer but that would be the biggest they could do (at least IMO).

Seems like a trade may be the better route for the Tribe for money reasons and the fact that there aren't a ton of good options out there this year. I think money wise it could be cheaper to trade a guy like Donald for a bat and sign a vet utility guy for Kearns-like money. Obviously here I'm assuming Donald can bring someone back and that a team really values him, which may not be the case. But again, just throwing that out there.

I'd be willing to take a hit in offense to the utility spot if it gets us an upgrade in the starting lineup. Also just not sure how much time Donald will be able to get unless AC or Kipnis struggle. Seems as though Hanny is locked in as the backup to Chiz and if he keeps hitting lefties like he did this year, he's a great comp to Chiz as well.

And not really a big deal, but Santana did have a slightly higher OPS against lefties this year. Donald was a close second (didn't realize he was that high). Pretty impressive...


We are on the same page. My primary point was that Donald had a 949 OPS against LHP as I recall and that sets him in a class all alone on this team. I hadn't thought about it before but who will play SS after AsCab? I have reservations about Diaz being an ML regular. But I am pretty flexible about any trades to improve the team since Jimenez trade made it clear they will compete the best they can in 2012/2013. I do not see the Indians as big players in FA and suspect that trades and scrap heap will be most likely adds. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:08 pm

If the tribe were willing to make a mid-season trade (they were) that included our top 3 SP prospects at the start of the 2011 season and don't make any key FA adds (not "role" players) this off-season.... They deserve to watch Detroits boot stomp their head in in 2012.

Edit - I forgot about Knapp - he was prolly our 3rd best SP prospect to start 2011... So make that our our 1,2 and 4th SP prospects.....
Last edited by criznit2009 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:17 pm

criznit2009 wrote:If the tribe were willing to make a mid-season trade (they were) that included our top 3 SP prospects at the start of the 2011 season and don't make any key FA adds (not "role" players) this off-season.... They deserve to watch Detroits boot stomp their head in in 2012.


The FA market, for all intents and purposes, is an area the Indians should pass on.. happily..

There will be no 'deserved boot stomping of anyone's head'..

..only the wise use of resources through astute trades, contract extensions of core players into their initial free agency years and the continued development of the kids being drafted...It's the path to contending..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Pass on the FA market?? You're kidding right? Unless we make another major trade which isn't all that unlikely there is no other way to add a RH everyday-ish player. Also a SP will enter the mix but who,when and how are TBD.

Oh wait I think I get it, lets trade the rest of our top prospects for another questionable "stud ".... Makes no sense when you could make a good run at Willingham and it doesn't have to cost us any players just the owners money.... Most likely though if we do add a big bat to the OF it would be the end of Sizemores days here. He could come back next year on a new contract though. Right now the current ML Cleveland indians are your future cleveland indians for the most part and FA is one of the only ways the tribe can expect to get better and when your competeing, you need to tap this resource.. There is money to spend next year - to grady or not to grady that is the question..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:54 am

With the relative scarcity of RH players that 'fit' the profile (cuddyer, willingham, perhaps, Beltran).. the teams these guys are currently with have a "leg up" on retaining their services.. It's pretty clear that these three guys.. will have more than just 'passing' interest from other clubs..

W/R to Beltran, he refused to waive his NTC to come to cleveland.. as a FA, there is an even lesser likelihood he comes to Cleveland.. W/R to both Cuddyer and Willingham.. both have publicly stated they wish to remain with their respective teams. In Willingham's case.. he has been quoted multiple times throughout the 2011 season that he wants to stay with the A's:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8470 ... 1-priority

So, while it sure sounds like a great idea.. go get Player X, Y, or 3 as a free agent. Afterall, it only costs money. , It's unlikely to happen. The Indians should pass on the Free Agent market and focus on the the existing club, wise and insightful drafting along with astute trades. This is where the Indians do the best with respect to talent acquisition...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:55 am

criznit2009 wrote:Oh wait I think I get it, lets trade the rest of our top prospects for another questionable "stud "......
Who are the questionable studs?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:29 pm

Going around to various blogs and team sites.. there may be more names to consider as targets.. while some of the names don't appear to be a fit.. that's all it is.. an appearance.. If a player has hit in the past, LH'd or RH'd, minor leagues, or major leagues.. then he can again, possibly.. maybe.. maybe not...

Here are sommmme teammmmms/nammmmes (starts with M) to consider:

Mariners: Casper Wells, Trayvon Robinson, Mike Carp, Johermyn Chavez, Greg Halman, Carlos Peguero and Michael Saunders. The M's RF/CF are spots that are solidly filled. This leaves six OF'ers for one spot.. The Indians could possibly give Grady Sizemore a chance to play in front of his home town fans and be managed by his most ardent supporter in Eric Wedge. The next "talent evaluation mistake" from the M's could be coming to Cleveland.. Michael Saunders could be that guy..

Marlins: Logan Morrison/Chris Coghlan: The Marlins are moving into their new stadium and absolutely don't need a malcontent in their midst. LoMo and the Loria are a match made slightly south of heaven. Coghlan has played one year in the last two.. The Fish need a NAME to open their new park.. The Indians could send Grady and a chunk of his salary to the Marlins along with a RP with some upside for one of the two Marlins.. this is doable..

Mets: Angel Pagan is entering the last year of control by the Mets.. he's a switch hitter.. runs well, hits better.. plays good, not exceptional, defense.. has all the makings of a solid / professional ML'er.. think Trevor Crowe with actual ability...

Toronto: Jake Marisnick: While still probably at least a year away from being MLB ready, the skill set this kid possesses and the match with the Jays seems to fit.. The Jays have at least two needs: a Second Baseman (no, not the Kipper..) and Relief Pitching. There may be a match with Travis Snider as a cast off from the Jays as they stay with Eric Thames..

There were at least another forty names that would fit the above profile.. These four will be the start...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ChadS17 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:26 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Going around to various blogs and team sites.. there may be more names to consider as targets.. while some of the names don't appear to be a fit.. that's all it is.. an appearance.. If a player has hit in the past, LH'd or RH'd, minor leagues, or major leagues.. then he can again, possibly.. maybe.. maybe not...

Here are sommmme teammmmms/nammmmes (starts with M) to consider:

Mariners: Casper Wells, Trayvon Robinson, Mike Carp, Johermyn Chavez, Greg Halman, Carlos Peguero and Michael Saunders. The M's RF/CF are spots that are solidly filled. This leaves six OF'ers for one spot.. The Indians could possibly give Grady Sizemore a chance to play in front of his home town fans and be managed by his most ardent supporter in Eric Wedge. The next "talent evaluation mistake" from the M's could be coming to Cleveland.. Michael Saunders could be that guy..

Marlins: Logan Morrison/Chris Coghlan: The Marlins are moving into their new stadium and absolutely don't need a malcontent in their midst. LoMo and the Loria are a match made slightly south of heaven. Coghlan has played one year in the last two.. The Fish need a NAME to open their new park.. The Indians could send Grady and a chunk of his salary to the Marlins along with a RP with some upside for one of the two Marlins.. this is doable..
Mets: Angel Pagan is entering the last year of control by the Mets.. he's a switch hitter.. runs well, hits better.. plays good, not exceptional, defense.. has all the makings of a solid / professional ML'er.. think Trevor Crowe with actual ability...

Toronto: Jake Marisnick: While still probably at least a year away from being MLB ready, the skill set this kid possesses and the match with the Jays seems to fit.. The Jays have at least two needs: a Second Baseman (no, not the Kipper..) and Relief Pitching. There may be a match with Travis Snider as a cast off from the Jays as they stay with Eric Thames..

There were at least another forty names that would fit the above profile.. These four will be the start...


Interesting. Ozzie getting a chance to manage "Superman."
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:57 am

GeronimoSon wrote: The next "talent evaluation mistake" from the M's could be coming to Cleveland.. Michael Saunders could be that guy..


Saunders is a left-handed hitting centerfielder, age 24, with a .196 career batting average in 204 ABs. This year in 161 ABs he hit .149 for the Mariners. He hit .288 in AAA. Sorry, I don't think this guy is our next Choo or ACab. I don't even think he's the next Zeke Carerra.

Willingham hit .208 against left-handed pitching this year. He wouldn't be my #1 trade target.

If the Tribe is looking for more production against lefties, it's just a matter of putting the right lineup on the field.

Lou Marson hit .297/.387/.794 in 91 ABs against lefties. That's outstanding production from a catcher. So Marson catches and Santana plays first base against lefties. Santana's line: .318/.428/.964 in 179 ABs against left-handed pitching.

Jason Donald hit .377/.424/.949 against lefties. I considered starting him at 3rd base against lefties, but Chiz hit .260/.888 with a .600 slugging percentage against lefties, so I'm fine with Chiz in the lineup. Kipnis hit .260 against lefties, and ACab hit .291/.777 against left-handed pitching, so we're fine across the infield.

I would have Donald DH for Pronk against lefties. Pronk hit only .233/.638 against lefties, and he could use a couple of days off per week. You could also have Kipnis, Chiz, or ACab be the DH to give their legs a rest and use Donald in the field.

To me this makes more sense than giving up more top prospects or a lot of money for a thirty-something vet who doesn't hit any better than the guys we have, or a 24-year old who hasn't shown he can break the Mendoza line.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:26 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote: The next "talent evaluation mistake" from the M's could be coming to Cleveland.. Michael Saunders could be that guy..


Saunders is a left-handed hitting centerfielder, age 24, with a .196 career batting average in 204 ABs. This year in 161 ABs he hit .149 for the Mariners. He hit .288 in AAA. Sorry, I don't think this guy is our next Choo or ACab. I don't even think he's the next Zeke Carerra.

Willingham hit .208 against left-handed pitching this year. He wouldn't be my #1 trade target.

If the Tribe is looking for more production against lefties, it's just a matter of putting the right lineup on the field.

Lou Marson hit .297/.387/.794 in 91 ABs against lefties. That's outstanding production from a catcher. So Marson catches and Santana plays first base against lefties. Santana's line: .318/.428/.964 in 179 ABs against left-handed pitching.

Jason Donald hit .377/.424/.949 against lefties. I considered starting him at 3rd base against lefties, but Chiz hit .260/.888 with a .600 slugging percentage against lefties, so I'm fine with Chiz in the lineup. Kipnis hit .260 against lefties, and ACab hit .291/.777 against left-handed pitching, so we're fine across the infield.

I would have Donald DH for Pronk against lefties. Pronk hit only .233/.638 against lefties, and he could use a couple of days off per week. You could also have Kipnis, Chiz, or ACab be the DH to give their legs a rest and use Donald in the field.

To me this makes more sense than giving up more top prospects or a lot of money for a thirty-something vet who doesn't hit any better than the guys we have, or a 24-year old who hasn't shown he can break the Mendoza line.


Saunders, when you watch him play, has all the defensive tools necessary to be a solid OF'er.. be that in RF, LF or CF.. The multiple changes to his batting stance and swing path over the last season seem to be overwhelming the poor kid.. He may just need to GTFO of Seattle... you know.. change of scenery type thing.. Johermyn Chavez is also a pretty decent candidate for the M's next "talent evaluation mistake"...

Any moves that increases Jason Donald's playing time works for me... :good:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:22 am

Being the Indians are trying to replace an impact, All-Star player like Grady Sizemore and they are on record as saying they need to acquire ONE big bat here is a list of players who would fill the void. These players have demonstrated in their ML careers they can score 80 runs or more, have a good K-BB ratio, hit for power, drive in runs, have winning intangibles and have a good batting averages. Yes, they are premier players, but the kind needed for this team to take the next step and compete to win a World Championship.

Tier 1:

Nick Markakis, OF, Baltimore Orioles: great all around player.
Nick Swisher, OF, New York Yankees: great power and superior K-BB ratio, gritty, winning gamer type
Matt Holiday, OF, St. Louis Cardinals: same attributes as Swisher
Matt Kemp, OF, Los Angeles Dodgers: off the chart season in 2011
Andrew McCutcheon, OF, Pittsburgh Pirates: impact player in all phases of the game, he should be a top target
Corey Hart, OF, Milwaukee Brewers: Power hitter, falls off in other categories
Jay Bruce, OF, Cincinnati Reds: One of the games best power hitters

Tier 2:

Mike Stanton, OF, Miami Marlins: Great power, could get better with more experience
BJ Upton,, OF, Tampa Bay Rays: Underachiever, K's are extremely high, low BA, lots of athleticism
Michael Cuddyer, OF, Minnesota Twins: Steady, professional hitter, aging
Mitch Moreland, IB, Texas Rangers: interesting, don't know how he would perform out of a strong Texas line up
Josh Willingham, OF, Oakland A's: low BA and K's are high, an upgrade over what we have, but not an impact player
Carlos Pena, IB, Chicago Cubs: low BA, K's 126 times, but walked 101 times, streaky, hits for power in Jacobs Field
Michael Morse, IB, Washington Nationals: big power, poor K-BB ratio
Carlos Qeuntin, OF, Chicago White Sox: a player Shapiro wanted before but WS historically won't trade with Indians

Top candidates to really improve the Indians who bring intangibles including leadership include: Markakis, Swisher, Holiday, McCutcheon and Kemp. Mitch Moreland and Jay Bruce are also interesting players that could possibly make an impact.

If the Indians are serious these type of players will be on their radar this off-season. It will take a blockbuster trade to acquire any of them, but look for that to happen especially if they do not pick up Sizemore's option.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:32 am

Mike, I'm not sure what the Indians would be able to give up in a trade that would induce teams to give up players like Kemp, Markakis, Bruce, Holiday or McCutcheon. Maybe Pomeranz would have perked some interest, but he's gone. We're not going to get any of these guys for Jason Donald and a relief pitcher or two. If the Inidans brought up any of those names the response would start with players like ACab or Kipnis. I don't think we want to go there.

The only possibility I might consider would be trading Kipnis with the idea that Donald could start at 2nd and provide close to Kipnis' offensive production while balancing the lineup better with a right-handed bat. If Kipis, Raffy Perez, and somebody like Barnes, McAlister or Gomez could get us a top tier guy then it would be worth considering.

As for the second tier guys, I'm not interested in the ones that strike out a lot. We already lead the league in that category and I'm sick of watching Tribe hitters get punched out 10 or more times a game.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:50 am

Prosecutor wrote:Mike, I'm not sure what the Indians would be able to give up in a trade that would induce teams to give up players like Kemp, Markakis, Bruce, Holiday or McCutcheon. Maybe Pomeranz would have perked some interest, but he's gone. We're not going to get any of these guys for Jason Donald and a relief pitcher or two. If the Inidans brought up any of those names the response would start with players like ACab or Kipnis. I don't think we want to go there.

The only possibility I might consider would be trading Kipnis with the idea that Donald could start at 2nd and provide close to Kipnis' offensive production while balancing the lineup better with a right-handed bat. If Kipis, Raffy Perez, and somebody like Barnes, McAlister or Gomez could get us a top tier guy then it would be worth considering.

As for the second tier guys, I'm not interested in the ones that strike out a lot. We already lead the league in that category and I'm sick of watching Tribe hitters get punched out 10 or more times a game.


several of those guys just would not be available for any price like Markakis. Nick is a legend here in Woodstock, GA where he played HS ball. Angelos will never let a fellow Greek out of his system. Angelos was the one that convinced Nick to play for Greece in the Olympics in 2004.

The only names on your list that may be available for a steep price would be Swisher (for pitching) and maybe Kemp because of the Dodgers financial position. I just don't see it and I don't see the Indians willing to pay the price to acquire one of those guys.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:04 am

How much salary do we want to take on? If we don't pick up Grady's option, I mean. The Braves would probably LOVE to lose Dan Uggla's remaining 4yrs/$52 million. Think they'd take Kipnis for him?

Reason I asked is maybe we work a deal involving those two, we throw in something else, they throw in Tommy La Stella. Then we have 2B locked for 10 years. Uggla's no bargain contract-wise but he plays every game & has great power production. K's a lot though(sorry Prosecutor). In '14 La Stella will be ready to step in & Uggla can DH or whatever. Maybe we can even unload him.

La Stella is the best minor league bat I've seen in a while & plays nice defense. He might end up a better ML player than Kipnis.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:24 am

Rocky55 wrote:How much salary do we want to take on? If we don't pick up Grady's option, I mean. The Braves would probably LOVE to lose Dan Uggla's remaining 4yrs/$52 million. Think they'd take Kipnis for him?

Reason I asked is maybe we work a deal involving those two, we throw in something else, they throw in Tommy La Stella. Then we have 2B locked for 10 years. Uggla's no bargain contract-wise but he plays every game & has great power production. K's a lot though(sorry Prosecutor). In '14 La Stella will be ready to step in & Uggla can DH or whatever. Maybe we can even unload him.

La Stella is the best minor league bat I've seen in a while & plays nice defense. He might end up a better ML player than Kipnis.


Not sure about the Braves loving to lose Uggla's contract. Now they would love to lose Derek Lowe's contract but he cost too much for the Tribe. I also think they would be interested in shopping Jurjens with all the young arms they have (Minor, Medlen, Tehran, Delgado, Vizcaino) that are ready for the show. But Uggla is one of the few RH hitters in that lineup and the one with the most power.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:49 pm

daingean wrote:several of those guys just would not be available for any price like Markakis. Nick is a legend here in Woodstock, GA where he played HS ball. Angelos will never let a fellow Greek out of his system. Angelos was the one that convinced Nick to play for Greece in the Olympics in 2004.

The only names on your list that may be available for a steep price would be Swisher (for pitching) and maybe Kemp because of the Dodgers financial position. I just don't see it and I don't see the Indians willing to pay the price to acquire one of those guys.


Yeah, sounds like there's a better chance of Jones being available in Baltimore more than Markakis (though neither is happening). You you said to hell with K's, Mark Reynolds would be a nice power bat (and I guy I'd be willing to deal with personally). Him and Grady though really couldn't co-exist but could decline his option (or include him in the deal).


Swisher is a guy I've always liked. Will be interesting to see what the Yanks do with him. Option isn't bad at all for him but offense could survive by moving him. Tribe isn't the deepest in ML starting pitching but he'd be a guy I'd consider moving Carmona for. Red Sox showed interest, not sure the Yanks would or not (though they may remember Game 2 in 2007).

Kemp is a pipedream. Sounds like the financial issues aren't gonna be a factor. Plus even if he did become available...don't think we have enough to get him, at least compared to other teams.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:52 pm

One guy who I haven't seen mentioned (maybe I missed it?) who I think is a guy the Indians are a lock to look at is Casey Kotchman.

Tribe showed interest this past winter (most of us seemed against it...d'oh). Good defensive 1B who finally is hitting this year. Isn't even a Type B but has enough service time to be a free agent now. Rays are sure to try and bring him back, but you may be able to try him away. Would be careful on what you offer though, but the defense does need fixing and 1B is an easy spot to do it. He is another lefty, but wasn't useless against them this year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:20 pm

I don't know about Kotchman. I like the .306 average but 10 HRs and 48 RBIs in 500 ABs? That's not much production for a first baseman, and we don't need another left-handed bat, especially one with only 36 extra base hits out of 153.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:28 pm

Upton ended up at .243/.331/.759 with 23 HRs, 81 RBIs, and 36 stolen bases. Not bad for a good defensive centerfielder. You could argue that those are the numbers we would expect from a healthy Sizemore next year, without the stolen bases. I don't like the 161 K's, but he shows up every day (153 games played). I don't know what he's due to make next year, but he got just under $5 million this year.

I'm not sure what we have that Tampa would want for him, or whether they have anyone that can replace him in their system.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:32 pm

Carlos Pena, IB, Chicago Cubs: low BA, K's 126 times, but walked 101 times, streaky, hits for power in Jacobs Field


Pena hit .133 in 120 ABs against left-handed pitching. He's a 33-year-old platoon player. Pass.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:02 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't know about Kotchman. I like the .306 average but 10 HRs and 48 RBIs in 500 ABs? That's not much production for a first baseman, and we don't need another left-handed bat, especially one with only 36 extra base hits out of 153.


Tribe liked him before this year...when he was a terrible hitter. I fully expect them to see them show interest again.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:34 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't know about Kotchman. I like the .306 average but 10 HRs and 48 RBIs in 500 ABs? That's not much production for a first baseman, and we don't need another left-handed bat, especially one with only 36 extra base hits out of 153.


Tribe liked him before this year...when he was a terrible hitter. I fully expect them to see them show interest again.

Think I have to go with Prosecutor here Hermie. He really does not seem like much of an upgrade over LaPorta to me, either offensively or defensively. But I have not been real excited about any of the other options at 1B either. The OF looks shakier to me and I would spend the available dollars and trade chips getting an upgrade with the Sizemore money. If attendance improves to over 2M, the Hafner money should make things easier financially for 2013 IMO. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:36 am

Yeah, Hafner's contract expiring frees up $13 million in 2013, plus I think Carmona is due to make something like $9 million on a club option for that year, too. If Fausto has another 15 loss, 5+ ERA season next year the Tribe will drop him, especially with Carrasco coming back and hopefully Barnes, McAlister, and/or Rondon moving up.

Having Carmona and Hafner drop off the books will free up $22 million for 2013.

I expect the Tribe to contend next year if Choo and Brantley stay healthy and have normal seasons, and if Ubaldo has a better year. But 2013 is the target year to get to the playoffs in my opinion, and the Tribe should have a lot of money to spend, and the Tigers aren't getting any younger.

By the way, is Sean Casey a good Kotchman comp? Big (6'3", 215 lbs) left-handed hitting, slick fielding first baseman who hits .300 with no power. I like his OBP, though, I think it was .387. Definitely an upgrade over PortaLaMaTola. But at what cost?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:10 am

Here's some names from the outrighted/declined options pile:

Kevin Kouzmanoff - We would have been better off had we never traded him for Josh Barfield, but now I think Hannnahan is a better option.

Casey Blake - We would be a much worse team if we hadn't traded him for Carlos Santana. A solid vet like Blake could show the youngsters how to play, but not tops on my list.

Jon Garland - Now here's a very interesting name. Had shoulder surgery in July, and the Dodgers turned down a $8 million club option (sound familiar?). He usually is good for around 200 IP, and would be a good pickup for the back of the rotation. He might not be able to start the season, but could be valuable.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:13 am

Prosecutor wrote:By the way, is Sean Casey a good Kotchman comp? Big (6'3", 215 lbs) left-handed hitting, slick fielding first baseman who hits .300 with no power. I like his OBP, though, I think it was .387. Definitely an upgrade over PortaLaMaTola. But at what cost?


Sean Casey was a better hitter throughout his career because SC was able to do it year in and year out. CK hasn't had that kind of success throughout his career. With the year he had last year, I would expect CK to sign a nice sized contract but I'm not convinced he will duplicate his efforts. I'd rather move on.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:21 am

Prosecutor wrote:Upton ended up at .243/.331/.759 with 23 HRs, 81 RBIs, and 36 stolen bases. Not bad for a good defensive centerfielder. You could argue that those are the numbers we would expect from a healthy Sizemore next year, without the stolen bases. I don't like the 161 K's, but he shows up every day (153 games played). I don't know what he's due to make next year, but he got just under $5 million this year.

I'm not sure what we have that Tampa would want for him, or whether they have anyone that can replace him in their system.

Pretty sure the Rays want to move Desmond Jennings to CF which is his natural position. They seem to have pretty good options to replace Jennings in LF. :pleasantry:

Actually, one of the replacements, Brandon Guyer, might be worth a good look for the Tribe, especially as a platoon.
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