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Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:38 am

I think it is important to realize that the the world series hasn't even started yet and there is already impact player, recent MVP, AKA-Joey Votto trade talks. This is a sign of how fluid and monumental the off-season trade market could get and considering the fact there aren't any guys in Columbus or Akron being counted on to contribute offensively anytime soon, the tribe should get hot on Votto if true. More names will surface for sure, and I am not saying Votto or bust but there is no reason why we shouldn't start next season with a better hitter at first or a good RH in the OF... It is our weakness pure as day. When you consider our best regular everyday line-up is here now and we don't have internal RH OF/1B options that we can count on(Neal, Mills are not ML ready - yet) we NEED to add someone period. If Votto cost us Chiz plus the kitchen sink, fine. Just give Donald the job at 3B with Hanny right behind him. That would be acceptable....That is if you weren't looking to make an upgrade here in some way as well...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:12 am

While having Votto manning first base would be a HUGE boost to the Indians efforts in 2012, there are some players who should be considered "untouchable" for the coming season. They include:

Justin Masterson
Josh Tomlin
Nick Hagadone
Jason Kipnis
Lonnie Chisenhall
Carlos Santana
Michael Brantley

This leaves quite a few chips that could be/should be available for the right deal. The players most likely to be considered of value by other teams include Shin-soo Choo, Asdrubal Cabrera, Lou Marson, Chris Perez, and Jason Donald (5). While it would be painful to watch any of these players leave as their loss creates a "new hole", the overall improvement of the club can't be overlooked...

It should be noted that IF any of these five are traded, there has to be an obvious MLB ready replacement in the Indians system or will be coming back in a trade: e.g.: If the Phillies decide J-Roll isn't the answer at SS for the 2012 season and into the future. If they then target Asdrubal for trade, the Indians would be able to fill the loss of Asdrubal with Jason Donald. While this wouldn't be an ideal situation, the return from the Phillies along with Jason Donald being able to fill in the void would make the deal acceptable.

While Chris Antonetti has shown the creativity and courage to make bold moves, this off season should be tempered with care and concern for the teams overall makeup for 2012 and into 2013 and beyond.

BTW..In case you were considering/contemplating trading Matt LaPorta to the Phillies (to replace injured Ryan Howard). That would be selling low..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:23 am

Geronimo, I don't get your criteria for determining which players are "untouchable" and which are trade bait.

Hagadone is untouchable (even though we have Sipp and Rafffie) but we can trade Asdrubal? Huh? Have you seen Donald play short?

Tomlin is untouchable but we can trade Chris Perez? I take it you think Vinnie is ready to close?

I think that healthy seasons from Choo and Brantley along with normal development of Kipnis and Chiz will significantly improve the offense without any new bats being brought in. Donald being healthy will allow Manny to rest Cabrera a bit in the first half and prevent the second half dropoff in production. LaPorta looked much better the last month as he started using the whole field. And Santana is doing a good job of adjusting to the pitchers after they adjusted to him.

Grady and Pronk are the wild cards.

I'm not that much in favor of giving up Rage or Asdrubal or Choo just because there's a perception that we have to add a power bat. I'm not convinced. If Choo and Brantley are healthy, Kipnis and Chiz continue to develop, LaPorta continues what he was doing in September, and Hafner, Duncan, Asdrubal, and Santana have repeat seasons, we'll have more than enough offense.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:49 am

Prosecutor wrote:Geronimo, I don't get your criteria for determining which players are "untouchable" and which are trade bait.

Hagadone is untouchable (even though we have Sipp and Rafffie) but we can trade Asdrubal? Huh? Have you seen Donald play short?

Tomlin is untouchable but we can trade Chris Perez? I take it you think Vinnie is ready to close?

I think that healthy seasons from Choo and Brantley along with normal development of Kipnis and Chiz will significantly improve the offense without any new bats being brought in. Donald being healthy will allow Manny to rest Cabrera a bit in the first half and prevent the second half dropoff in production. LaPorta looked much better the last month as he started using the whole field. And Santana is doing a good job of adjusting to the pitchers after they adjusted to him.

Grady and Pronk are the wild cards.

I'm not that much in favor of giving up Rage or Asdrubal or Choo just because there's a perception that we have to add a power bat. I'm not convinced. If Choo and Brantley are healthy, Kipnis and Chiz continue to develop, LaPorta continues what he was doing in September, and Hafner, Duncan, Asdrubal, and Santana have repeat seasons, we'll have more than enough offense.


Not to defend GS (he can defend himself) but the guys he has available are all arby eligible. I think this defeats what the Reds would do if they shopped Votto out. They would want the cheap production of guys like Kip and Chiz.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:36 am

The criteria was pretty much free form with the idea that the guys who would be "available" would be at least ARB I or ARB II and unlikely to be around for the duration of the 2012 through 2015 seasons.

w/r to Jason Donald playing SS: Yes, I've seen him play.. While he's certainly not going to remind you of Elvis Andrus with his range and arm, if he can fill in for Asdrubal at SS.. he can play.. Asdrubal's value will NEVER be higher than it is right now..

w/r to closer Chris Perez's replacement: Vinnie Pestano has the right mentality and would certainly be considered for the spot if the Indians foolishly trade CP this off season. Nick Hagadone, Cory Burns, CC Lee and, imho, Austin Adams could be considered for the spot as well.. Including AA as a 'closer' candidate would put him into a spot where he has the skills and arm that will allow him to flourish..

The Indians entered the 2011 season with few expectations (my prediction of 86 wins and vying for the AL Central title, aside). The key to their success was stated as being healthy. A somewhat colorful metaphor was applied to PRONK: Pronk represents the middle of the order offensive force. If he can get 450 AB's, he will be the straw that stirs the Indians offensive drink... Health in the coming 2012 season, even if NO TRADES or FA's are signed, is the key to the Indians success in 2012 and beyond. That remains the same as what was stated prior to the 2011 season.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:20 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:While having Votto manning first base would be a HUGE boost to the Indians efforts in 2012, there are some players who should be considered "untouchable" for the coming season. They include:

Justin Masterson
Josh Tomlin
Nick Hagadone
Jason Kipnis
Lonnie Chisenhall
Carlos Santana
Michael Brantley


I really see no way Brantley is untouchable. The Indians aren't huge fans of him in CF as his defense there (as I've said for years) is still not that good. He showed a little pop this year, but not nearly enough for LF. He needs to start getting that OBP up and stealing some bases or he is really just a 4th outfielder on a good team. I'd be selective on who you dealt him for, but he should be far from untouchable IMO.

Big Hagadone fan but also think he should be put in the non-untouchable category. By trading Pom and White, the Tribe has shown they are going for 2012 and 2013. Perez and Sipp are both under team control thru them (and longer in Sipp's case). Wouldn't rush to trade Hags, but again in the right deal he should be moveable IMO.

Tomlin...on the fence here. I actually agree with your statement that Cabrera's value may never be higher....then again, Tomlin's may never be higher either. Tomlin really fell off last year...his ERA from June 1st on was 5.24. He probably slots in as the #4 starter...I know he's cheap and gives you innings, but in the right deal he's a guy I'd be willing to move (not for a role player though).

Chisenhall.....I want to be in the untouchable group here. Huge fan and think he can be a star 3B in this league. But if the Tribe likes Donald enough, I think you could possibly move Chiz for a RH LF/1B and start Donald and possibly not lose much in 2012. Depends how much of the future the Tribe wants to risk.

I'd probably throw Choo on the untouchable list too simply because I don't think you can get close to value for him after this year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:27 pm

So the remaining three players.. Masterson, Kipnis and Santana are the only three 'untouchables'. Okay.. that's fair...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Chisenhall.....I want to be in the untouchable group here. Huge fan and think he can be a star 3B in this league. But if the Tribe likes Donald enough, I think you could possibly move Chiz for a RH LF/1B and start Donald and possibly not lose much in 2012. Depends how much of the future the Tribe wants to risk.


Only way I'd trade Chiz is for a real difference maker with at least 3 years of team control. He showed enough pop and improvement that I think is going to be an offensive weapon in the future. Saying that he isn't a power hitter and really offensively only Santana and Kipnis would be untouchable. I put Chiz in the category of "Knock my socks off with an offer" same with ACab and Choo.

I agree with Brantley if he can't steal bases or play CF his value as a LF decreases. He's a lead off hitter and needs to closer resemble K. Lofton than G. Vukovich.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:35 pm

The Joey Votto sweepstakes appears to be over:

"We haven’t talked about it. I wish that people would stop writing it," said Jocketty. "Why would we trade one of the best players in the game? We’re trying to win."


This was a quote directly from Walt Jockety.. so let the Yonder Alonso chit chat begin !!!!???
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:37 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Chisenhall.....I want to be in the untouchable group here. Huge fan and think he can be a star 3B in this league. But if the Tribe likes Donald enough, I think you could possibly move Chiz for a RH LF/1B and start Donald and possibly not lose much in 2012. Depends how much of the future the Tribe wants to risk.


Only way I'd trade Chiz is for a real difference maker with at least 3 years of team control. He showed enough pop and improvement that I think is going to be an offensive weapon in the future. Saying that he isn't a power hitter and really offensively only Santana and Kipnis would be untouchable. I put Chiz in the category of "Knock my socks off with an offer" same with ACab and Choo.

I agree with Brantley if he can't steal bases or play CF his value as a LF decreases. He's a lead off hitter and needs to closer resemble K. Lofton than G. Vukovich.
Ezequiel Carrera more closely resembles Kenny Lofton ... no?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:38 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:The Joey Votto sweepstakes appears to be over:

"We haven’t talked about it. I wish that people would stop writing it," said Jocketty. "Why would we trade one of the best players in the game? We’re trying to win."


This was a quote directly from Walt Jockety.. so let the Yonder Alonso chit chat begin !!!!???


Who do you believe Mediots or GMs? In this case (and only this case), I believe Jockety.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:40 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:The Joey Votto sweepstakes appears to be over:

"We haven’t talked about it. I wish that people would stop writing it," said Jocketty. "Why would we trade one of the best players in the game? We’re trying to win."


This was a quote directly from Walt Jockety.. so let the Yonder Alonso chit chat begin !!!!???


Where there's smoke there's usually fire. I don't buy that those Votto rumors came out of no where. While I do think Alonso being traded is more likely, but Votto is getting expensive and the Reds pitching needs help. Only 1 starter threw at least 170 innings last year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:49 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Chisenhall.....I want to be in the untouchable group here. Huge fan and think he can be a star 3B in this league. But if the Tribe likes Donald enough, I think you could possibly move Chiz for a RH LF/1B and start Donald and possibly not lose much in 2012. Depends how much of the future the Tribe wants to risk.


Only way I'd trade Chiz is for a real difference maker with at least 3 years of team control. He showed enough pop and improvement that I think is going to be an offensive weapon in the future. Saying that he isn't a power hitter and really offensively only Santana and Kipnis would be untouchable. I put Chiz in the category of "Knock my socks off with an offer" same with ACab and Choo.

I agree with Brantley if he can't steal bases or play CF his value as a LF decreases. He's a lead off hitter and needs to closer resemble K. Lofton than G. Vukovich.


Mostly in agreement on Chiz. I'd consider guys with less control if it's a Votto-type (just an example), but even then I'd be hesitant.

I guess my issue with brantley is that I don't see him as a leadoff hitter yet. He did have a nice 2nd half in 2010 but even then OBP was only .335. He regressed this year after April. I'm not sold he's anything more than a bottom of the order hitter. He needs to at worst get back to his second half 2010 numbers or he's a bench player IMO.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ACrank » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:01 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The Joey Votto sweepstakes appears to be over:

"We haven’t talked about it. I wish that people would stop writing it," said Jocketty. "Why would we trade one of the best players in the game? We’re trying to win."


This was a quote directly from Walt Jockety.. so let the Yonder Alonso chit chat begin !!!!???


Where there's smoke there's usually fire. I don't buy that those Votto rumors came out of no where. While I do think Alonso being traded is more likely, but Votto is getting expensive and the Reds pitching needs help. Only 1 starter threw at least 170 innings last year.


Tampa is looking for a bat - i wonder if you might see a Votto for Shields trade?

i'd love to see the Indians try to put a package together for Votto - i just doubt there is a good fit.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:03 pm

Shields to the Reds... Votto to the Rays.. would be a HUGE acquisition.. but, it's not like the Rays to take on that kind of salary.. they'd love the performance.. but not the price tag..

The reds and Indians are not a fit?.. not sure how you've come to that conclusion?...care to explain a bit?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:40 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Shields to the Reds... Votto to the Rays.. would be a HUGE acquisition.. but, it's not like the Rays to take on that kind of salary.. they'd love the performance.. but not the price tag..

The reds and Indians are not a fit?.. not sure how you've come to that conclusion?...care to explain a bit?


Me and some other have all explained it already. You can not get Votto without creating another hole either in the rotation or in the lineup.

Besides, adding just Votto would not solve our problems. We need more than that, so why not look at more reasonably attainable pieces at various positions. Let's move on from Votto.

I think if we'd trade for either on or two of:

BJ Upton
Allen Craig
John Mayberry Jr.
Gaby Sanchez
Logan Morrison
Yonder Alonso

and/or sign one of:

Michael Cuddyer
Derrek Lee
Carlos Pena
Ryan Ludwick
Pat Burrell (who knows?)
Josh Willingham (though I'm not a fan)

That should really help us. Out of those trade candidates I see Upton, Craig and Mayberry as the most likely, since we have a great fit with their respective teams (both the Phillies and Rays are looking for bullpen help, and Craig should cost less than those two I think) and it seems that all three of those teams already have a replacement and should be able to trade them.

The FA batch I'm not fond of. Out of that group I'd prefer either Cuddyer or Lee.

To me, this would solve alot of our offensive issues while not weakening our lineup and keeping our rotation intact. It would cost us some relievers, but given that we have more than enough candidates in AAA, I'd feel comfortable plugging those holes internally (that's a weird sentence :bad:).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:53 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Shields to the Reds... Votto to the Rays.. would be a HUGE acquisition.. but, it's not like the Rays to take on that kind of salary.. they'd love the performance.. but not the price tag..

The reds and Indians are not a fit?.. not sure how you've come to that conclusion?...care to explain a bit?


+1. Baseball trades are rarely made value for value anymore. The only reason Votto might be on the market is because he soon will be a FA and will make a ton of money in 2013. Thus screwing up the Reds payroll.

The Reds would be interested in SP, sure. But some FOR SP are more valuable than Votto, and are extremely hard to acquire (see Ubaldo). So they might be interested in an inning eating SP and multiple RP with good stuff (that the Indians have). All team controllable for a while. Mix in a high ceiling lower level prospect, and presto - you have a trade discussion.

IMO, Votto would also give you more production than Upton and Cuddyer. Plus when was the last time the Indians were successful in signing a very desirable FA?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:57 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
I think if we'd trade for either on or two of:

BJ Upton
Allen Craig
John Mayberry Jr.Gaby Sanchez


Sign me up for any of them but I'm a big fan of John Mayberry Jr. :clapping:

No real reason, but whatever it was, I always kept tabs on him as a minor leaguer and was very interested in him before the season began. Just a fancinating physical baseball player. Very toolsy player that may just be a bit of late bloomer, at least can be a quality major league player.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:15 pm

ACrank wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Where there's smoke there's usually fire. I don't buy that those Votto rumors came out of no where. While I do think Alonso being traded is more likely, but Votto is getting expensive and the Reds pitching needs help. Only 1 starter threw at least 170 innings last year.


Tampa is looking for a bat - i wonder if you might see a Votto for Shields trade?

i'd love to see the Indians try to put a package together for Votto - i just doubt there is a good fit.


As others have said, Rays taking on that kind of salary seems unlikely. Would be a very interesting trade for both parties though.

A much more likely/reasonable trade would be Alonso for Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann. Felt for a while now if the Reds were to move Alonso the Rays make a ton of sense as he's cheap and fills a huge need at 1B or DH (both of which are free agents, Kotchman/Damon).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:06 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:
I think if we'd trade for either on or two of:

BJ Upton
Allen Craig
John Mayberry Jr.Gaby Sanchez


Sign me up for any of them but I'm a big fan of John Mayberry Jr. :clapping:

No real reason, but whatever it was, I always kept tabs on him as a minor leaguer and was very interested in him before the season began. Just a fancinating physical baseball player. Very toolsy player that may just be a bit of late bloomer, at least can be a quality major league player.


Agreed, I'm a fan as well. He can play all 3 OF positions and he plays them pretty well. Has lots of raw power, especially against lefties and his isoP on the road is almost identical to his home number.

I think if you offered Rafael Perez and Cord Phelps, you'd be in the ballpark of what the Phillies would want.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:34 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Sign me up for any of them but I'm a big fan of John Mayberry Jr. :clapping:

No real reason, but whatever it was, I always kept tabs on him as a minor leaguer and was very interested in him before the season began. Just a fancinating physical baseball player. Very toolsy player that may just be a bit of late bloomer, at least can be a quality major league player.


Agreed, I'm a fan as well. He can play all 3 OF positions and he plays them pretty well. Has lots of raw power, especially against lefties and his isoP on the road is almost identical to his home number.

I think if you offered Rafael Perez and Cord Phelps, you'd be in the ballpark of what the Phillies would want.


I'm a fan of Mayberry, and think he is a realistic target....but Raffy and Phelps? Just Raffy is pretty steep IMO for a guy that has been off the map for so long and only had success as a backup/part time player. Yeah prospect rankings can be meaningless, but when you look at what relievers can fetch, that seems like a major loss for the Tribe. Tools are nice, but don't overspend for them.

Yeah Mayberry could have a breakout year like Morse...or could totally flop if given an everyday role. Pretty big gamble on Raffy alone....let alone throwing in Phelps. At least that's my take, but guy's been a non-prospect for 2+ years
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:43 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:IMO, Votto would also give you more production than Upton and Cuddyer. Plus when was the last time the Indians were successful in signing a very desirable FA?


Kerry Wood before the 2009 season. Best closer on the market and considered a top 10 by many. Bad move, and they overpaid (IMO) but they were successful in signing him.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:06 pm

Haevn't seen his name mentioned, but sticking with the Phillies....Dominic Brown. Struggled so far in the bigs but with more time should be something special. Phillies could really be in need of some bullpen help depending who the retain. Phillies had been adamant about keeping Brown, but with Pence in the fold...could they be swayed by say Chris Perez?

Saves the Tribe some money, and deals from a position of strength (RH relievers). Brown is another lefty outfielder but he's actually hit lefties pretty well (less pop but better elsewhere). Makes the Tribe outfield a little crowded though Brown may need a lil more seasoning and Grady is still not a sure thing (or could try and expand the deal with Grady).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Haevn't seen his name mentioned, but sticking with the Phillies....Dominic Brown. Struggled so far in the bigs but with more time should be something special. Phillies could really be in need of some bullpen help depending who the retain. Phillies had been adamant about keeping Brown, but with Pence in the fold...could they be swayed by say Chris Perez?

Saves the Tribe some money, and deals from a position of strength (RH relievers). Brown is another lefty outfielder but he's actually hit lefties pretty well (less pop but better elsewhere). Makes the Tribe outfield a little crowded though Brown may need a lil more seasoning and Grady is still not a sure thing (or could try and expand the deal with Grady).


I think Brown will cost us a lot. I really don't see the Phillies making him available.

It's true that Mayberry doesn't have a lot of track record, but the Phillies' FO would be selling high on him and I don't think Rafael Perez alone will be enough.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:45 am

RE: Trading Chisenhall or Kipnis if they brought us an impact player

Don't see the Indians improving trying to obtain young players with potential like Brown, Mayberry Jr. or even Upton. (Please no players who would add to our skewed K-BB ratio) To make up 15 games in the standings and win the division we are going to need healthy players, but also our main addition needs to be a young star, impact player with a track record. The type of player who becomes the face of our franchise and makes all the other players in the line up better.

Chisenhall or Kipnis would need to be in the deal. Would have no problem moving one of them for the right player. Hannahan could play 3B and Donald could play 2B depending on who is traded. Both of these players are emerging every day players who can contribute to a winning line up.

Agree with Prosecutor LaPorta might have turned the corner. Actually, a player like Hannahan would make the Yankees a much better team if the played 3B for them instead of A-Rod. I say that because A-Rod distrupts their team chemistry and Hannahan could be another Scott Brosius type.

Hannahan brings a lot with his defense and continues to improve. It all starts with pitching and defense. Hannahan and Donald continue to get better and better and we can control them long term.

Yes, I value Chisenhall and Kipnis, but if they could be the main chip in a blockbuster trade and net us a Votto, McCutcheon, Swisher or Nick Markakis type it would be a huge step in improving our team to win it all.

We've been rebuilding to capitalize for a short "window" so we could possibly win a championship. Now is the time to go for it. We can always rebuild our farm system. Our farm system needs to serve many purposes and at this juncture we need to accelerate our chances of winning at the ML level.

Antonetti has big balls. I really expect him to continue his aggressive style this off-season.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:48 am

ironmike wrote:RE: Trading Chisenhall or Kipnis if they brought us an impact player

Don't see the Indians improving trying to obtain young players with potential like Brown, Mayberry Jr. or even Upton. (Please no players who would add to our skewed K-BB ratio) To make up 15 games in the standings and win the division we are going to need healthy players, but also our main addition needs to be a young star, impact player with a track record. The type of player who becomes the face of our franchise and makes all the other players in the line up better.

Chisenhall or Kipnis would need to be in the deal. Would have no problem moving one of them for the right player. Hannahan could play 3B and Donald could play 2B depending on who is traded. Both of these players are emerging every day players who can contribute to a winning line up.

Agree with Prosecutor LaPorta might have turned the corner. Actually, a player like Hannahan would make the Yankees a much better team if the played 3B for them instead of A-Rod. I say that because A-Rod distrupts their team chemistry and Hannahan could be another Scott Brosius type.

Hannahan brings a lot with his defense and continues to improve. It all starts with pitching and defense. Hannahan and Donald continue to get better and better and we can control them long term.

Yes, I value Chisenhall and Kipnis, but if they could be the main chip in a blockbuster trade and net us a Votto, McCutcheon, Swisher or Nick Markakis type it would be a huge step in improving our team to win it all.

We've been rebuilding to capitalize for a short "window" so we could possibly win a championship. Now is the time to go for it. We can always rebuild our farm system. Our farm system needs to serve many purposes and at this juncture we need to accelerate our chances of winning at the ML level.

Antonetti has big balls. I really expect him to continue his aggressive style this off-season.


but how do you see the team getting better by improving production from one position while decreasing production from one or two other positions. It's creating a hole to fill a hole. It makes no sense to me to trade key players offensively for another bat while you need to get better on offense.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:21 am

Hermie13 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Sign me up for any of them but I'm a big fan of John Mayberry Jr. :clapping:

No real reason, but whatever it was, I always kept tabs on him as a minor leaguer and was very interested in him before the season began. Just a fancinating physical baseball player. Very toolsy player that may just be a bit of late bloomer, at least can be a quality major league player.


Agreed, I'm a fan as well. He can play all 3 OF positions and he plays them pretty well. Has lots of raw power, especially against lefties and his isoP on the road is almost identical to his home number.

I think if you offered Rafael Perez and Cord Phelps, you'd be in the ballpark of what the Phillies would want.


I'm a fan of Mayberry, and think he is a realistic target....but Raffy and Phelps? Just Raffy is pretty steep IMO for a guy that has been off the map for so long and only had success as a backup/part time player. Yeah prospect rankings can be meaningless, but when you look at what relievers can fetch, that seems like a major loss for the Tribe. Tools are nice, but don't overspend for them.

Yeah Mayberry could have a breakout year like Morse...or could totally flop if given an everyday role. Pretty big gamble on Raffy alone....let alone throwing in Phelps. At least that's my take, but guy's been a non-prospect for 2+ years


This year Mayberry hit .299/.354/.576/.930 after the All-Star break. He's a late bloomer at 27 but he put up some very nice numbers. He hit 10 HRs and 30 RBIs in 144 ABs after the break, so multiply by 4 to project that out to a full season and you're looking at Ryan Howard numbers. I'm not saying he's Ryan Howard, but I found a quote by their GM Ruben Amaro Jr who said the CF job is his to lose next spring. He's not a spare part they don't have much use for.

I really don't think we get this guy for Raffie and Cord. Not even close.

Allen Craig is a left-fielder, also 27 years old, also a late bloomer who put up big numbers this year. In 200 ABs he had 11 HRs and 40 RBIs, so again, do the math. His line for the season was .315/.362/.555/.917. Both Craig and Mayberry Jr. are right-handed power hitters, so they would be a great fit for the Tribe, assuming we're OK with moving Brantley to CF if Craig comes over.

I just don't think we can get either of them without parting with a lot more then a middle reliever and a non-prospect infielder.

It's possible they both fall back to earth once they start playing every day and pitchers find the holes in their swings, but for now their teams would be selling high, IMO. I'd love to see the Tribe make a run at either or them, but they won't get them for a couple of players they don't need. Phelps is not a major league player, IMO, except possibly in a utility role.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:26 am

I am a tad concerned about the tenor of this thread, and, even more so, by the apparent conviction of Tribe management that it is time be be "all-in" for contention in 2012, regardless of what it means for 2013-2020. I disliked the Pomeranz deal for that reason, though I will not dredge that up again. I will only say that I look forward to the day when we will not need a team psychiatrist on the staff to deal with talented but erratic and undependable starters like Carmona and Jimenez.

The point is simple: we are not that good, and for the Tribe to truly contend in 2012 will require a great deal of good luck and some factors beyond our control. The Tigers run circles around us, the White Sox and Twins do not regard themselves as in our rear-view mirror in 2012, and, don't look now but the Royals have a farm system that is absolutely swimming in stud talent. I think it would be short-sighted to deal Chiz or Kipnis. They are exciting prospects with great upsides. They will not hit their prime for awhile and I think there is almost no deal I can see that would justify our moving them, unless it was for a similar rookie type prospect. I want to see them play a full season at their positions in 2012 so we can see what we have.

Sports are full of teams that do surprisingly well like the Tribe did in 2011 and then management makes a series moves for short-term success that blow up in their face.

I would stick with our current roster. We need to be patient and realize our talent level right now is not going to get the job done, and trading youth for veterans in this context is suicidal.

I would use free agency to get the best right-handed power-hitting bat available, either a left-fielder or a first baseman. I might even be willing to spend some real money, especially for a guy who is on the south side of 30.

I might trade Chris Perez if a deal presents itself. I don't dislike Perez; I just think Pestano could fill his slot and we have a lot of good talent in the minors.

Otherwise, I sit with a pat hand, pray for health and hope for the best in 2012. The truth is that we should be thinking about 2013-15 as our window. We should do nothing this winter that jeopardizes 2013-15. That is why I hated the Pomeranz deal.

Lastly, and fittingly for this board, the Tribe should not do now what it did in the late 1990s, and go into a ten year period when it effectively discontinues its farm system. The Tribe needs to redouble its spending and efforts in this area as far as I am concerned. It is the only way we have to compete with the resources available to us.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:30 am

elrod enchilada wrote:I am a tad concerned about the tenor of this thread, and, even more so, by the apparent conviction of Tribe management that it is time be be "all-in" for contention in 2012, regardless of what it means for 2013-2020. I disliked the Pomeranz deal for that reason, though I will not dredge that up again. I will only say that I look forward to the day when we will not need a team psychiatrist on the staff to deal with talented but erratic and undependable starters like Carmona and Jimenez.

The point is simple: we are not that good, and for the Tribe to truly contend in 2012 will require a great deal of good luck and some factors beyond our control. The Tigers run circles around us, the White Sox and Twins do not regard themselves as in our rear-view mirror in 2012, and, don't look now but the Royals have a farm system that is absolutely swimming in stud talent. I think it would be short-sighted to deal Chiz or Kipnis. They are exciting prospects with great upsides. They will not hit their prime for awhile and I think there is almost no deal I can see that would justify our moving them, unless it was for a similar rookie type prospect. I want to see them play a full season at their positions in 2012 so we can see what we have.

Sports are full of teams that do surprisingly well like the Tribe did in 2011 and then management makes a series moves for short-term success that blow up in their face.

I would stick with our current roster. We need to be patient and realize our talent level right now is not going to get the job done, and trading youth for veterans in this context is suicidal.

I would use free agency to get the best right-handed power-hitting bat available, either a left-fielder or a first baseman. I might even be willing to spend some real money, especially for a guy who is on the south side of 30.

I might trade Chris Perez if a deal presents itself. I don't dislike Perez; I just think Pestano could fill his slot and we have a lot of good talent in the minors.

Otherwise, I sit with a pat hand, pray for health and hope for the best in 2012. The truth is that we should be thinking about 2013-15 as our window. We should do nothing this winter that jeopardizes 2013-15. That is why I hated the Pomeranz deal.

Lastly, and fittingly for this board, the Tribe should not do now what it did in the late 1990s, and go into a ten year period when it effectively discontinues its farm system. The Tribe needs to redouble its spending and efforts in this area as far as I am concerned. It is the only way we have to compete with the resources available to us.


Don't be afraid. There is a time to build, and a time to contend. Indians management has decided to contend in cycles. Contend - teardown - rebuild - contend. It's the circle of life. In a few years ACab will be replacing Jeter in NY, Choo will be making movies in LA, and Ubaldo will take his talents to South Beach.

The Indians have already taken some steps to contention. But the hardest one is to go from also ran to true contender and champion. The Indians are not strong in free agency. So all that is left is to be aggressive with trades. The top prospects in the system are gone, but we still have a quantity of good prospects.

Get on the bandwagon. There's plenty of room. It's fun. :drinks:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:42 am

elrod enchilada wrote:I am a tad concerned about the tenor of this thread, and, even more so, by the apparent conviction of Tribe management that it is time be be "all-in" for contention in 2012, regardless of what it means for 2013-2020. I disliked the Pomeranz deal for that reason, though I will not dredge that up again. I will only say that I look forward to the day when we will not need a team psychiatrist on the staff to deal with talented but erratic and undependable starters like Carmona and Jimenez.


I agree with your premise but I think the Indians can and will contend in 2012. The players they add to contend should not cost our future but also in our market we need to seize the opportunity when it does present itself. I think it is pure fantasy to say go out and acquire guys that will either be too expensive to acquire or just plain not available. Saying that yes it hurts nothing to inquire on guys like Votto just to understand what the parameters a deal will require.

We also have a glut of nice BP arms but so many of those guys are in the BP because of some wart or another where they couldn't make it as a starter. That is why trading a C.Perez is a risk but one worth exploring but only for the right deal. I think closers have the most inflated value in ML baseball but I also feel that a strong bullpen from the 7th-9th innings are what wins in the game today. Let me clarify, an 8th inning guy is only slightly less valuable in reality to a closer but closers get paid more because of the save stat. For this reason, I think that selling C.Perez now would be selling high on him and we have a list of guys (Pestano, Hagadone, Judy to name a few) that have the talent to be closers. My guess is at least one would settle into that position nicely.

I also didn't like the Jimenez deal. I thought he was damaged goods (loss in velocity) but there is no use in complaining about things that cannot be changed. My philosophy is to look forward. With that said, it would take an incredible deal for me to consider trading guys like Chiz or Kip because I understand the budget constraints for this team. If I'm the Yankees or Red Sox maybe I'm okay with that thought but not this team, in this market with this economic system (MLB's).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:48 am

Both Chisenhall and Kipnis are showing they can be or will be impact players for the Indians.. trading one or the other for an impact player would be a net zero. Having Jason Donald & Jack Hannahan as a reserve utility players just adds depth to the infield.

The discussion regarding a need for an impact 1B: The 1B situation is currently about as deep as any position in the Indians system. The emergence of Carlos Santana playing 1B and the improvement of Matt LaPorta from his 2010 season has that spot pretty much sealed up. Both Jack Hannahan and Shelly Duncan can both play the spot as well. The minor league system has seen the re-emergence of former first round pick Beau Mills and the significant improvement/development of Jesus Aguilar. So, the Indians are covered at 1B from the top of the organization clear though A ball.

OF'er/LF'er: The Indians ended the 2011 season with what looked more like a group of M*A*S*H Escapees: Grady Sizemore, Shin-soo Choo, Michael Brantley and Trevor Crowe were incapacitated or shut down for significant parts of and the remainder of the season. How does a team lose it's entire outfield and survive?. Well, they didn't. Shelly Duncan, Ezequiel Carrera, Kosuke Fukudome were the starters at the end of the season. The good news, at least three of those four will be returning for the 2012 season. Additionally, the Indians have at least one prospect (let's call him flying under the radar) at Columbus that could impact the 2012 outfield make up: Thomas Neal.

Here's a hypothetical: If "Team A" were in the market and came across a deal where they acquired the services of an entire outfield of "healthy" / "good to go" players named Shin-soo Choo, Grady Sizemore and Michael Brantley, wouldn't that constitute "impact additions"? The only issue facing this group is the left hand bias. IMHO, a lot of teams would look at this kind of addition as a major coup.. and perhaps why the Indians will be picking up Grady's option and/or renegotiating a performance/incentive based extension. If any area of the team needs a second chance to show what it can do, this is the group...

Starting Pitching: The Indians go into the off season with a starting staff that might be close to set for the 2012 season: Justin Masterson, Ubaldo Jimenez, Fausto Carmona, JeanMar Gomez and Josh Tomlin represent the starting rotation with David Huff, Zach McAllister & Mitch Talbot comprising three additional depth starters. While this group may be considered "deep", adding to the starting staff via free agency is something that needs to be considered. The FA market, which has been unkind to the Indians, historically, has very few candidates that could impact the Indians in 2012. Bartolo Colon?. Edwin Jackson?.. how about Paul Maholm? The Indians will no doubt pursue a FA SP or two.. If any of the large market clubs show interest, the Indians will back off and move onto another player..

So, at the end of this diatribe.. it doesn't look like much, if any movement could be coming during the long cold winter ahead. That's sure to inspire a "Peyton Hillis doesn't want to play because of his contract" story or two from we all know who...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:07 am

Prosecutor wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Sign me up for any of them but I'm a big fan of John Mayberry Jr. :clapping:

No real reason, but whatever it was, I always kept tabs on him as a minor leaguer and was very interested in him before the season began. Just a fancinating physical baseball player. Very toolsy player that may just be a bit of late bloomer, at least can be a quality major league player.


Agreed, I'm a fan as well. He can play all 3 OF positions and he plays them pretty well. Has lots of raw power, especially against lefties and his isoP on the road is almost identical to his home number.

I think if you offered Rafael Perez and Cord Phelps, you'd be in the ballpark of what the Phillies would want.


I'm a fan of Mayberry, and think he is a realistic target....but Raffy and Phelps? Just Raffy is pretty steep IMO for a guy that has been off the map for so long and only had success as a backup/part time player. Yeah prospect rankings can be meaningless, but when you look at what relievers can fetch, that seems like a major loss for the Tribe. Tools are nice, but don't overspend for them.

Yeah Mayberry could have a breakout year like Morse...or could totally flop if given an everyday role. Pretty big gamble on Raffy alone....let alone throwing in Phelps. At least that's my take, but guy's been a non-prospect for 2+ years


This year Mayberry hit .299/.354/.576/.930 after the All-Star break. He's a late bloomer at 27 but he put up some very nice numbers. He hit 10 HRs and 30 RBIs in 144 ABs after the break, so multiply by 4 to project that out to a full season and you're looking at Ryan Howard numbers. I'm not saying he's Ryan Howard, but I found a quote by their GM Ruben Amaro Jr who said the CF job is his to lose next spring. He's not a spare part they don't have much use for.

I really don't think we get this guy for Raffie and Cord. Not even close.

Allen Craig is a left-fielder, also 27 years old, also a late bloomer who put up big numbers this year. In 200 ABs he had 11 HRs and 40 RBIs, so again, do the math. His line for the season was .315/.362/.555/.917. Both Craig and Mayberry Jr. are right-handed power hitters, so they would be a great fit for the Tribe, assuming we're OK with moving Brantley to CF if Craig comes over.

I just don't think we can get either of them without parting with a lot more then a middle reliever and a non-prospect infielder.

It's possible they both fall back to earth once they start playing every day and pitchers find the holes in their swings, but for now their teams would be selling high, IMO. I'd love to see the Tribe make a run at either or them, but they won't get them for a couple of players they don't need. Phelps is not a major league player, IMO, except possibly in a utility role.
Craig/Mayberry Jr.. would both be well received or very good additions to the Tribe in 2012.. You've stated what it would NOT take to acquire either one of these guys.. any thoughts on what it WOULD take to acquire?...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:16 am

elrod enchilada wrote:I am a tad concerned about the tenor of this thread, and, even more so, by the apparent conviction of Tribe management that it is time be be "all-in" for contention in 2012, regardless of what it means for 2013-2020. I disliked the Pomeranz deal for that reason, though I will not dredge that up again. I will only say that I look forward to the day when we will not need a team psychiatrist on the staff to deal with talented but erratic and undependable starters like Carmona and Jimenez.

The point is simple: we are not that good, and for the Tribe to truly contend in 2012 will require a great deal of good luck and some factors beyond our control. The Tigers run circles around us, the White Sox and Twins do not regard themselves as in our rear-view mirror in 2012, and, don't look now but the Royals have a farm system that is absolutely swimming in stud talent. I think it would be short-sighted to deal Chiz or Kipnis. They are exciting prospects with great upsides. They will not hit their prime for awhile and I think there is almost no deal I can see that would justify our moving them, unless it was for a similar rookie type prospect. I want to see them play a full season at their positions in 2012 so we can see what we have.

Sports are full of teams that do surprisingly well like the Tribe did in 2011 and then management makes a series moves for short-term success that blow up in their face.

I would stick with our current roster. We need to be patient and realize our talent level right now is not going to get the job done, and trading youth for veterans in this context is suicidal.

I would use free agency to get the best right-handed power-hitting bat available, either a left-fielder or a first baseman. I might even be willing to spend some real money, especially for a guy who is on the south side of 30.

I might trade Chris Perez if a deal presents itself. I don't dislike Perez; I just think Pestano could fill his slot and we have a lot of good talent in the minors.

Otherwise, I sit with a pat hand, pray for health and hope for the best in 2012. The truth is that we should be thinking about 2013-15 as our window. We should do nothing this winter that jeopardizes 2013-15. That is why I hated the Pomeranz deal.

Lastly, and fittingly for this board, the Tribe should not do now what it did in the late 1990s, and go into a ten year period when it effectively discontinues its farm system. The Tribe needs to redouble its spending and efforts in this area as far as I am concerned. It is the only way we have to compete with the resources available to us.


For the most part: +1

Being "not that good" and being "good enough" is a fine but blurry line.. Pestano as the closer if Chris Perez is traded.. okay.. Praying for healthy: see the above.. Enough talent to make a trade for an impact player: example: who woulda thunk Jose Constanza would supplant Jason "ALL WORLD" Heyward for the staring OF spot for the Braves.. peraps only a chance is needed..

Farm System: ABSOLUTELY, SPOT ON BALLS ACCURATE (marissa tomei.. it's an industry term, "My Cousin Vinnie"). The Indians have been in the top five of spending for the farm system over the last 3 to 5 years (that is, Mr Dolan is spending as this is the RIGHT TIME).. and it has to continue. The top 7 draft picks from 2011 all have a chance to truly impact the Indians in the coming years.. There is no let up in the continued infusion of talent into the Indians farm system, both from the draft as well as international free agent signings...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:24 am

GeronimoSon wrote:The discussion regarding a need for an impact 1B: The 1B situation is currently about as deep as any position in the Indians system. The emergence of Carlos Santana playing 1B and the improvement of Matt LaPorta from his 2010 season has that spot pretty much sealed up. Both Jack Hannahan and Shelly Duncan can both play the spot as well. The minor league system has seen the re-emergence of former first round pick Beau Mills and the significant improvement/development of Jesus Aguilar. So, the Indians are covered at 1B from the top of the organization clear though A ball.


I think you are way inflating the level of our 1B in the system. I am not ready to close the door on LaPorta or Mills but I want some competition and depth. I think you could add Wegs to the list as I think he needs to move to 1B full time because he just can't stay healthy in the OF. I just don't see it as that deep but I am excited by Aguilar right now.

Also, adding a 1B/OF combo guy would certainly decrease the risk of being exposed by OF injuries like those we encountered this year and also to play if LaPorta just doesn't cut it. Not sure Duncan is a guy that can start for a contender but a good RH option if needed.

Dolan has increased spending in the past when we were ready to contend. I see the same thing happening this year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:36 pm

Prosecutor wrote:This year Mayberry hit .299/.354/.576/.930 after the All-Star break. He's a late bloomer at 27 but he put up some very nice numbers. He hit 10 HRs and 30 RBIs in 144 ABs after the break, so multiply by 4 to project that out to a full season and you're looking at Ryan Howard numbers. I'm not saying he's Ryan Howard, but I found a quote by their GM Ruben Amaro Jr who said the CF job is his to lose next spring. He's not a spare part they don't have much use for.

I really don't think we get this guy for Raffie and Cord. Not even close.

Allen Craig is a left-fielder, also 27 years old, also a late bloomer who put up big numbers this year. In 200 ABs he had 11 HRs and 40 RBIs, so again, do the math. His line for the season was .315/.362/.555/.917. Both Craig and Mayberry Jr. are right-handed power hitters, so they would be a great fit for the Tribe, assuming we're OK with moving Brantley to CF if Craig comes over.

I just don't think we can get either of them without parting with a lot more then a middle reliever and a non-prospect infielder.

It's possible they both fall back to earth once they start playing every day and pitchers find the holes in their swings, but for now their teams would be selling high, IMO. I'd love to see the Tribe make a run at either or them, but they won't get them for a couple of players they don't need. Phelps is not a major league player, IMO, except possibly in a utility role.


Shelley Duncan hit .276/.362/.553/.915 with 8 HRs in only 143 plate appearances after the All-Star break too. So what, he's now worth the moon?

Sorry, but I'd almost want more from the Phillies if they want Raffy (and Phelps). Raffy's K-Rate isn't what it used to be but he's a solid lefty reliever and those are very valuable in today's market.

Fair enough calling Phelps a non-prospect infielder.....Mayberry was a non-prospect backup OFer this year. Mayberry couldn't even crack the Phillies top 30 prospect list the last 2 years (was 24th in 2008). Yes, BA's rankings don't mean a lot, but half a good year doesn't erase how much he struggled. People are calling Mayberry a late-bloomer...and maybe he is. Or maybe he's a guy that had a solid 2nd half on a very good team that was used in properly as a reserve/spot starter in the OF.

As far as the quote from Amaro....you may be right but the one I saw said Mayberry would be given a chance to compete for the LF job, not that it was his to lose. In fact there are a lot of talks of the Phillies looking at a LFer from outside the organization to replace Ibanez (though it's early, perhaps it's nothing). With Howard hurt Mayberry does provide a nice option at 1B too, so he does have value (not saying he has none), but don't think it's any higher than say a guy like Donald.

And perhaps I'm overestimating Perez's trade value, but feel he's being vastly underrated here. If Raffy was a free agent...he'd be one of the better lefties on the market and draw interest (and dollars) from a number of teams.

And just curious.....what's your take on Jason Donald? I mean, he was a former top prospect who has struggled some but showed that he's still got some solid bat skills, especially when used as a reseve/spot starter/platoon guy. Really has shown as much as Mayberry has and no way (IMO) could we get a guy like Raffy (and a Phelps) for Donald. And I'm a guy that thinks Donald does have some solid trade value.

Hope that all didn't come out too aggressive sounding. Just really hate the idea of trading a very valuable reliever (and something else) for a backup outfielder. Makes little sense IMO. But perhaps you are right and Mayberry would cost more...I just can't see it.

Suppose a somewhat decent comp to Mayberry would be Franklin Guttierez. Gut was more highly touted prospect (or at least he was more recnetly when dealt). He also had more big league experience and was younger (and better defensively). Landed us Valbuena and Joe Smith. I'd put Raffy higher than Smith personally. Smith had 2 ok years in NY but was considered a platoon pitcher (and overall numbers were mediocre). Valbuena was comperable to Phelps IMO. Fringe prospect (BA liked Valbuena as our 10th best spec that year, BP had Phelps 10th this year). Both relied on OBP skills and not a whole lot else. IMO we'd be giving up more for an older Mayberry with less of a track-record....plus we aren't dealing with Minaya (who always overpaid).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:06 pm

When you look at John Mayberry Jr's career.. it's been a series of.. "meh.. what's so special about this guy?..."

In 2011, he was an everyday player up through the end of May...when he was demoted to the Phillies minor leagues. His production had fallen off so much that there was talk about him being a "throw in" as part of a trade for a major league outfielder.. He stayed in the minors... worked his tail off.. and returned to the Phillies just prior to the all star break.. His return and slow/gradual improvement after the all star break coupled with the pending departure of Raul Ibanez and the continued insecurity of giving Ben Francisco a starting spot, will make Mayberry Jr a bit more expensive to acquire.. but make no mistake... he's not anything different that what the Indians already have other than being right handed..

The suggested trade value from the above postings by Prosecutor and Hermie.. are about right..interesting, sure. Must have?.. not really...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:23 pm

Hermie wrote: And just curious.....what's your take on Jason Donald? I mean, he was a former top prospect who has struggled some but showed that he's still got some solid bat skills, especially when used as a reseve/spot starter/platoon guy. Really has shown as much as Mayberry has and no way (IMO) could we get a guy like Raffy (and a Phelps) for Donald. And I'm a guy that thinks Donald does have some solid trade value.


Stuggled?.. how has he struggled?

He was injured (a broken finger or wrist bone.. it was an odd injury).. then spent the better part of 8 weeks in AA and AAA before being re-called in late July. (this was mainly due to the incredibly hot start Jack Hannahan was on from the outset of the season) From the moment he returned.. to the end of the season..he played very well at 2B, SS and 3B both offensively and defensively (yes.. I know.. he booted two balls & one bad throw.. which accounted for ALL his errors in fifty chances at SS)..

There was no struggle.. there was insufficient playing time.. Jason Donald just needs to play more...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:32 pm

yep. keep Donald. Odds are he will get plenty of playing time backing up Chiz, ACab and Kip.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:43 pm

elrod enchilada wrote:yep. keep Donald. Odds are he will get plenty of playing time backing up Chiz, ACab and Kip.

Look for Manny to create a free form unscheduled rotation with the seven man infield group: Regulars will be Matt LaPorta 1B, Jason Kipnis 2B, Asdrubal Cabrera SS and Lonnie Chisenhall 3B who will get 5 1/2 starts each, each week. Replacment regulars Carlos Santana DH/1B will get 1 1/2 starts each week at 1B, Jason Donald will get 1 1/2 starts each week at each of SS and 2B while Hannahan will get 1 1/2 starts each week at each of 3B and 1B..

This will keep everyone fresh and rested..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:02 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie wrote: And just curious.....what's your take on Jason Donald? I mean, he was a former top prospect who has struggled some but showed that he's still got some solid bat skills, especially when used as a reseve/spot starter/platoon guy. Really has shown as much as Mayberry has and no way (IMO) could we get a guy like Raffy (and a Phelps) for Donald. And I'm a guy that thinks Donald does have some solid trade value.


Stuggled?.. how has he struggled?

He was injured (a broken finger or wrist bone.. it was an odd injury).. then spent the better part of 8 weeks in AA and AAA before being re-called in late July. (this was mainly due to the incredibly hot start Jack Hannahan was on from the outset of the season) From the moment he returned.. to the end of the season..he played very well at 2B, SS and 3B both offensively and defensively (yes.. I know.. he booted two balls & one bad throw.. which accounted for ALL his errors in fifty chances at SS)..

There was no struggle.. there was insufficient playing time.. Jason Donald just needs to play more...


hmm, let's see. Donald struggled defensively at SS and at 2B. Has made some strides this year but he most defintiely struggled when he first came up (and still did this year really). Still doesn't have the range for either position, though you could live with it I guess.

Offensively Donald REALLY struggled last year. He came on some near the end but OBP was still pretty weak. This year he struggled against righties (as he did last year) despite having more ABs against them than lefties. In fact, he was worse against righties this year than last (.607 OPS this year vs .643 last year). Strikeout rate was also very high this year (not quite at Grady levels up was up there).

Not saying he struggled to the point that he can't help this club, or can't improve, I mean he was a rookie last year and battled injuries this year, but he HAS struggled. Saying Donald didn't struggle is absurd.

He's got nearly 100 more ML at-bats than Mayberry, yet has put up much worse numbers (less than a year apart in age too). Again, not saying Donald is bad (or that Mayberry is our savior), but c'mon now.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:23 am

Forget Mayberry, looked like a bust in the minors, I don't trust him. Allen Craig hit wherever he went in minors and did so in the bigs last season. I'd give up Raffy + prospect or a package of 2 or 3 prospects to get him. Not a super-star, but he could give us numbers not far off of Cuddyer, while saving cash for arby guys, extensions.

Either or both of these guys could break out next year ala Mike Morse. Mayberry might be bigger and have more power potential, but I like Craig for a better avg/obp and as a safer bet. With LaPorta's struggles, we need the safer option.

Keep Donald. And damn sure keep Chiz and Kip.

And the Yankees would not be better off with Hannahan rather than ARod. Did I read that right?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:04 am

Geronimo you wrote in response to my post ... Both Chisenhall and Kipnis are showing they can be or will be impact players for the Indians.. trading one or the other for an impact player would be a net zero.

Don't know how you could compare players (McCutcheon, Markakis, Votto, Swisher) who have performed to high standards at the ML level to players who might do it.

IMO your thinking is flawed, skewed, way out there. IF you are in the crystal ball business let me know how high gold will be going in the next 12 months or when it will peak. On second thought, forget about that too.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:45 am

ironmike wrote:Geronimo you wrote in response to my post ... Both Chisenhall and Kipnis are showing they can be or will be impact players for the Indians.. trading one or the other for an impact player would be a net zero.

Don't know how you could compare players (McCutcheon, Markakis, Votto, Swisher) who have performed to high standards at the ML level to players who might do it.

IMO your thinking is flawed, skewed, way out there. IF you are in the crystal ball business let me know how high gold will be going in the next 12 months or when it will peak. On second thought, forget about that too.


We can start with an undeniable truth: McCutchen, Markakis & Votto aren't available in trade. Claiming they can be had for anyone is seriously flawed. Nick Swisher has a one year club option with the Yankees. If the Yankees were to pick up that option and attempt to trade him to the Indians for Kipnis or Chisenhall.. that will absolutely not happen.. If Nick Swisher's option is not picked up, then a trade of one of the emerging Indian stars is unnecessary.. also a flaw in your comment..

As far as comparing what Kipnis and Chisenhall WILL do.. to what McCutchen/Markakis/Votto/Swisher WILL do.. isn't that the same thing?.. same crystal ball.. gold futures.. etc..? With a trade, you replace what "one" will do with what another "one" will do.. One replacing another one is a net zero gain.

There is no flaw.. this is not out there... there is no skewing... and my crystal ball business isn't any clearer than yours.... :drinks:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:59 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
ironmike wrote:Geronimo you wrote in response to my post ... Both Chisenhall and Kipnis are showing they can be or will be impact players for the Indians.. trading one or the other for an impact player would be a net zero.

Don't know how you could compare players (McCutcheon, Markakis, Votto, Swisher) who have performed to high standards at the ML level to players who might do it.

IMO your thinking is flawed, skewed, way out there. IF you are in the crystal ball business let me know how high gold will be going in the next 12 months or when it will peak. On second thought, forget about that too.


We can start with an undeniable truth: McCutchen, Markakis & Votto aren't available in trade. Claiming they can be had for anyone is seriously flawed. Nick Swisher has a one year club option with the Yankees. If the Yankees were to pick up that option and attempt to trade him to the Indians for Kipnis or Chisenhall.. that will absolutely not happen.. If Nick Swisher's option is not picked up, then a trade of one of the emerging Indian stars is unnecessary.. also a flaw in your comment..

As far as comparing what Kipnis and Chisenhall WILL do.. to what McCutchen/Markakis/Votto/Swisher WILL do.. isn't that the same thing?.. same crystal ball.. gold futures.. etc..? With a trade, you replace what "one" will do with what another "one" will do.. One replacing another one is a net zero gain.

There is no flaw.. this is not out there... there is no skewing... and my crystal ball business isn't any clearer than yours.... :drinks:


my magic 8 ball says "ask again later"
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:06 am

Geronimo, most of the time you miss the big picture. And, you did it again.

Review the teams in the playoffs, no, just look at the hitters (plural) on the Rangers. When we get a collection of sticks like this to go along with our pitching we will have a chance. The Rangers are a mirror of our 90's teams. With that said, do you see that kind of talent on our roster, in our upper level of minor league players?

Maybe you do, but you could be alone on this. When we start to acquire IMPACT proven players we will be on our way to really contending. Improving to 80 wins is much easier than improving to a 90+ win season from the position we are now in. Also, calculate the improvement of the other teams in our division.

How do you propose the Indians do it? Remember, we only have a couple years because of the "window" game the Indians play. Time is not on their side. Antonetti needs to be aggressive this off-season.

The Ghost of Ted Cox made a lot of sense when he pointed out our present star core players will be with other teams in the not to distant future.

If the Indians are serious about winning a WS with this group they need to add a ton of talent to the core.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:26 am

Chiefroy wrote:Forget Mayberry, looked like a bust in the minors, I don't trust him. Allen Craig hit wherever he went in minors and did so in the bigs last season. I'd give up Raffy + prospect or a package of 2 or 3 prospects to get him. Not a super-star, but he could give us numbers not far off of Cuddyer, while saving cash for arby guys, extensions.

Either or both of these guys could break out next year ala Mike Morse. Mayberry might be bigger and have more power potential, but I like Craig for a better avg/obp and as a safer bet. With LaPorta's struggles, we need the safer option.

Keep Donald. And damn sure keep Chiz and Kip.

And the Yankees would not be better off with Hannahan rather than ARod. Did I read that right?


The Cardinals bullpen woes (more than a dozen blown saves during the 2011 regular season) is becoming ancient history.. but that doesn't preclude them from looking to further strengthen their pen in 2012. The Cardinals situation is unlike the Indians:

Starting Pitching: The Cards starting pitching goes about six deep when you include Adam Wainwright, perhaps seven deep if Kyle McClellan is included. The Cards # 1 prospect, Shelby Miller, is still a year away, but made it all the way to AA this year (where he dominated).

Bullpen: The Cards pen has turned the corner and has become a solid area of the club. In this postseason, that area of their team has become scary good...

The Cards are not without issues.. the biggest being the pending free agency of the heart of their order. Albert Pujols and Lance Berkman are both slated to become free agents in less than three weeks.. OUCH.. The Cardinals have a history of keeping their own.. It would not be a surprise to see BOTH of these guys retained. Berkman's

The Cards next most pressing issue is a mish-mash of sorts for their middle infield. Rafael Furcal will be an expensive option ($12MM) at SS, Nick Punto was signed to a one year deal and will become a FA in less than three weeks & The-Riot & Skippy are both ARB III. Something has to give.. 3B is an area w/ the Cards that might be considered both deep and talented. David Freese is becoming a cult hero with his post season performance & Zack Cox is a stud.. One or the other will no doubt get some PT at 1B in the future...

The Cards outfield, if they retain Lance Berkman is pretty solid in the corners, but not so much in CF. With Matt Holliday and Lance Berkman flanking the corner outfield spots, this leaves John Jay and an ancient Corey Patterson to patrol the wide expanses of CF in Busch Stadium II. CF is clearly a need area. Having Allan Craig as the Cards fourth outfielder to spell the aging corner OF guys will be a tough sell..

So, it looks like middle infield is where the Cards may be looking to bolster their club in trade.. A package that includes low cost/mlb ready prospects: a CF'er (Ezequiel Carrera) and a middle infielder (Cord Phelps/Jason Donald) could convince the Cards to trade Craig.. The needs of both clubs appear to be considered here..

-w/r to Hannahan over Arod at 3B, it's pretty clear that he's referring to the defensive prowess of Hoover Hannahan over what Arod is becoming in the field: a statue... It would not be a huge surprise to see more and more of the AB's ARod gets in 2012 through the end of his contract at DH..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:31 am

ironmike wrote:Geronimo, most of the time you miss the big picture. And, you did it again.

Review the teams in the playoffs, no, just look at the hitters (plural) on the Rangers. When we get a collection of sticks like this to go along with our pitching we will have a chance. The Rangers are a mirror of our 90's teams. With that said, do you see that kind of talent on our roster, in our upper level of minor league players?

Maybe you do, but you could be alone on this. When we start to acquire IMPACT proven players we will be on our way to really contending. Improving to 80 wins is much easier than improving to a 90+ win season from the position we are now in. Also, calculate the improvement of the other teams in our division.

How do you propose the Indians do it? Remember, we only have a couple years because of the "window" game the Indians play. Time is not on their side. Antonetti needs to be aggressive this off-season.

The Ghost of Ted Cox made a lot of sense when he pointed out our present star core players will be with other teams in the not to distant future.

If the Indians are serious about winning a WS with this group they need to add a ton of talent to the core.


The big picture, eh?.. Go out and buy impact bats and impact starting pitching so that the Indians will resemble the teams of the 90's.. that's your plan?. what color is the sky in your world? Trading one core player from the Indians for one core player from another club essentially becomes running in place or a net zero gain..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 am

ironmike wrote:Geronimo, most of the time you miss the big picture. And, you did it again.

Review the teams in the playoffs, no, just look at the hitters (plural) on the Rangers. When we get a collection of sticks like this to go along with our pitching we will have a chance. The Rangers are a mirror of our 90's teams. With that said, do you see that kind of talent on our roster, in our upper level of minor league players?

Maybe you do, but you could be alone on this. When we start to acquire IMPACT proven players we will be on our way to really contending. Improving to 80 wins is much easier than improving to a 90+ win season from the position we are now in. Also, calculate the improvement of the other teams in our division.

How do you propose the Indians do it? Remember, we only have a couple years because of the "window" game the Indians play. Time is not on their side. Antonetti needs to be aggressive this off-season.

The Ghost of Ted Cox made a lot of sense when he pointed out our present star core players will be with other teams in the not to distant future.

If the Indians are serious about winning a WS with this group they need to add a ton of talent to the core.


Nobody likes to give up good prospects. That's why we follow IPI. I'm sure Pom will be winning games for the Rockies long after Ubaldo has departed. But if he helps the Indians win a championship in 2012-13, who cares? At least we'll have the memories of a success and a celebration, (Instead of plowing through Tony's book every spring.)

To turn the Indians into a true pennant contender we must continue to be aggressive in trades. FA are nice, but we have never been successful signing a coveted one.


On a side note: Wasn't it nice to see fat Valverde get blasted last night?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:49 am

Craig/Mayberry Jr.. would both be well received or very good additions to the Tribe in 2012.. You've stated what it would NOT take to acquire either one of these guys.. any thoughts on what it WOULD take to acquire?...


You answered your own question far better than I could:

So, it looks like middle infield is where the Cards may be looking to bolster their club in trade.. A package that includes low cost/mlb ready prospects: a CF'er (Ezequiel Carrera) and a middle infielder (Cord Phelps/Jason Donald) could convince the Cards to trade Craig.. The needs of both clubs appear to be considered here..


I doubt they would be interested in Zeke, given the "vast expanses" of their outfield. He's an awful defensive centerfielder.

Donald is an interesting player in that, like Craig and Mayberry, he appears to be emerging in his mid-20's.

2010: .253/.690 in 296 AB's
2011: .318/.765 in 132 AB's

Was 2011 an anomaly or is Donald emerging as a solid ML player? I seriously doubt he's a .318 hitter over a full season. I saw one game last year where he got four hits and three of them were ground balls that found a hole. His BABIP jumped from .320 to .365 last year, suggesting he got lucky. Even if you split the difference in batting averages, however, he's a .285 hitter. I see him as an average starting second baseman who's strong offensively and just OK defensively. He could be of interest to the Cardinals. Too bad we have nothing better to offer than Zeke for their CF problem.

Given that Craig hit .315/.917 in 200 ABs with 11 HRs and 40 RBIs, I really doubt we're going to get him for Zeke and Donald. They don't need pitching. Hopefully we can put together a workable package, but unless they're crazy about Donald I don't think this gets it done.

Somebody mentioned Shelly Duncan. Dunc credited the new hitting coach with helping him stay focused on his keys. Check out these splits:

Pre All-Star: .240/.274/.400/.674
Post All-Star: .276/.362/.553/.915

I'm not suggesting Shelly will hit .915 over a full season, but he definitely did a better job of laying off the bad pitches and not getting himself out after Fields came along. Look at the difference in OBP! He drew more walks and got better pitches to hit.

I'm not saying Duncan should start in left next year, but let's not discount him completely. Before we give up valuable players like Chris Perez or Lonnie Chisenhall to get an outfield bat, let's ask how much of an upgrade this bat would be over a Shelly Duncan.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:23 am

Geronimo you are trying to shine your own badge. I did not say BUY a big bat. We will need to trade for a player (s). Every player is available for the right price. If you re-read the posts and lay off the peyote for a day you might be better at interpreting what was posted. You make trades from positions of strength. Trades are like joint ventures you match up weaknesses and strenghts. To get these type of players it will take players from the current 25 roster and prospects.

There are players out there who are available for the right price that have the following credentials:

1. Good K-BB ratio (this must be improved team wide in order to score more runs)
2. Players who hit .280 and up
3. Players who score 100 runs per season
4. Players who are affordable and can be controlled for an extended period
5. Players who are good teammates
6. Players who hit 25 HR's and drive in 100+ runs
7. Players who run the bases well.
8. Adequate defensive player

All of the above add up to not a great, super star type, but a good baseball player. Indians fans have seen great players in the past. Right now we need at least two more additional players like this, more likely three, outside of Santana, Cabrera, and who ever else might surprise us and have a career year. Can't count on Hafner, Sizemore won't be back and Choo needs to be healthy.

That is what it is going to take to win the division. Detroit's starting pitching of Verlander, Porcello, Schrezer, and Fister can be countered with good bats, lots of them. Texas is proving to neutralize them. There is a formula, you just need to know what to look for and at!
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