RSS Twitter Facebook YouTube
Expand Menu

Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:26 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't know about Kotchman. I like the .306 average but 10 HRs and 48 RBIs in 500 ABs? That's not much production for a first baseman, and we don't need another left-handed bat, especially one with only 36 extra base hits out of 153.


Tribe liked him before this year...when he was a terrible hitter. I fully expect them to see them show interest again.

Think I have to go with Prosecutor here Hermie. He really does not seem like much of an upgrade over LaPorta to me, either offensively or defensively. But I have not been real excited about any of the other options at 1B either. The OF looks shakier to me and I would spend the available dollars and trade chips getting an upgrade with the Sizemore money. If attendance improves to over 2M, the Hafner money should make things easier financially for 2013 IMO. :pleasantry:


You can go with him if you want and fair enough, but it still doesn't change the fact that the Tribe liked Kotchman and were interested in him last winter before the Rays got him. Guy typically has a solid OBP and plays above average defense. Type of guy the Tribe likes. Tribe wanted him as a compliment/insurance for LaPorta....sounds like the same thing we are looking for this winter...

Also didn't say we would get him (or even that I want him)...but he's a guy I'd bet money the Tribe shows interest in. They ddi last year...and that was when he was coming off a .616 OPS season. My guess is the Rays will try and bring him back but money is tighter there than here.


I also agree on the OF looking shakier...but I get the feeling with the latest "good news" (if you can call it that) on Grady that the Tribe may pick up his option (or at least bring him back). Just get the vibe that the Tribe doesn't seem to like LaPorta (or more Acta isn't sold on him) so think that 1B may be the area the Tribe adds to. Grady decision will tell us a lot though of where the Tribe is gonna go this winter.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:58 pm

daingean wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:By the way, is Sean Casey a good Kotchman comp? Big (6'3", 215 lbs) left-handed hitting, slick fielding first baseman who hits .300 with no power. I like his OBP, though, I think it was .387. Definitely an upgrade over PortaLaMaTola. But at what cost?


Sean Casey was a better hitter throughout his career because SC was able to do it year in and year out. CK hasn't had that kind of success throughout his career. With the year he had last year, I would expect CK to sign a nice sized contract but I'm not convinced he will duplicate his efforts. I'd rather move on.


Yeah Sean Casey is what many thought Kotchman could be when he was younger and traded to the Braves in the Teix deal. I'm not convinced Kotchman gets that nice of a contract this winter. While the bats aren't overwhelming, think teams will look at 2010 and be hesitant to give much. I could see him getting a 2yr deal worth $6M but wouldn't go higher. Maybe some team out there will lose their mind and offer way more, but track record isn't there for a full season. Had some nice partial years but with guys like Fielder and Pujols on the market, Kotchman could get lost at 1B.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:01 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Upton ended up at .243/.331/.759 with 23 HRs, 81 RBIs, and 36 stolen bases. Not bad for a good defensive centerfielder. You could argue that those are the numbers we would expect from a healthy Sizemore next year, without the stolen bases. I don't like the 161 K's, but he shows up every day (153 games played). I don't know what he's due to make next year, but he got just under $5 million this year.

I'm not sure what we have that Tampa would want for him, or whether they have anyone that can replace him in their system.

Pretty sure the Rays want to move Desmond Jennings to CF which is his natural position. They seem to have pretty good options to replace Jennings in LF. :pleasantry:

Actually, one of the replacements, Brandon Guyer, might be worth a good look for the Tribe, especially as a platoon.


Yeah Rays seem set in the OF even if they move Upton. 1B/DH, catcher, SS, and the pen are areas they'd likely look at (at least at the ML level).

I'd love to pry Guyer away from the Rays. Not even sure you'd have to platoon him as he hit righties pretty damn well in AAA (though lefties much better still). Highly doubt the Rays move him though. If (or when) they move Upton, Guyer and Fuld would likely be their LF combo...and defense/speed wise may not be that bad.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:11 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:By the way, is Sean Casey a good Kotchman comp? Big (6'3", 215 lbs) left-handed hitting, slick fielding first baseman who hits .300 with no power. I like his OBP, though, I think it was .387. Definitely an upgrade over PortaLaMaTola. But at what cost?


Sean Casey was a better hitter throughout his career because SC was able to do it year in and year out. CK hasn't had that kind of success throughout his career. With the year he had last year, I would expect CK to sign a nice sized contract but I'm not convinced he will duplicate his efforts. I'd rather move on.


Yeah Sean Casey is what many thought Kotchman could be when he was younger and traded to the Braves in the Teix deal. I'm not convinced Kotchman gets that nice of a contract this winter. While the bats aren't overwhelming, think teams will look at 2010 and be hesitant to give much. I could see him getting a 2yr deal worth $6M but wouldn't go higher. Maybe some team out there will lose their mind and offer way more, but track record isn't there for a full season. Had some nice partial years but with guys like Fielder and Pujols on the market, Kotchman could get lost at 1B.


3-6 mill for Kotchman I can see but I bet the bidding gets in the neighborhood of 3-5 years from somebody. There are teams out there that are not in the Prince/Albert sweepstakes. Plus the teams that lose out on them. I wouldn't be against a 1 year contract but any longer and it's a gamble. I would want to see that kind of performance for more than 1 year before I go beyond a year. I just don't see a 1 year even with an option getting it done for Casey.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:47 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Upton ended up at .243/.331/.759 with 23 HRs, 81 RBIs, and 36 stolen bases. Not bad for a good defensive centerfielder. You could argue that those are the numbers we would expect from a healthy Sizemore next year, without the stolen bases. I don't like the 161 K's, but he shows up every day (153 games played). I don't know what he's due to make next year, but he got just under $5 million this year.

I'm not sure what we have that Tampa would want for him, or whether they have anyone that can replace him in their system.

Pretty sure the Rays want to move Desmond Jennings to CF which is his natural position. They seem to have pretty good options to replace Jennings in LF. :pleasantry:

Actually, one of the replacements, Brandon Guyer, might be worth a good look for the Tribe, especially as a platoon.


Yeah Rays seem set in the OF even if they move Upton. 1B/DH, catcher, SS, and the pen are areas they'd likely look at (at least at the ML level).

I'd love to pry Guyer away from the Rays. Not even sure you'd have to platoon him as he hit righties pretty damn well in AAA (though lefties much better still). Highly doubt the Rays move him though. If (or when) they move Upton, Guyer and Fuld would likely be their LF combo...and defense/speed wise may not be that bad.

From what I understand, the Rays got Kotchman and we got Johnson around the same time. Watched Guyer and he looks like a keeper to me. Better than your usual 4th OF but not a star when I watched him against Columbus. RHPs seem to get him out with breaking balls away so he'd fit well with the Indians. :pleasantry:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:44 pm

daingean wrote:3-6 mill for Kotchman I can see but I bet the bidding gets in the neighborhood of 3-5 years from somebody. There are teams out there that are not in the Prince/Albert sweepstakes. Plus the teams that lose out on them. I wouldn't be against a 1 year contract but any longer and it's a gamble. I would want to see that kind of performance for more than 1 year before I go beyond a year. I just don't see a 1 year even with an option getting it done for Casey.


You could be right but 1B has some other guys than just the big 2. Carlos Pena has a good glove too but brings power. Cuddyer played more 1B than any positon in 2010 and played it again this year. Willingham doesn't have a ton of big league experience there but can play the position. Derek Lee bounced back nicely once back in the NL as well.

Throw in trade guys and the fact that many teams aren't in need of a 1B, and I don't think Kotchman will get a more than 3 years from a team and even that seems like a stretch. Not saying he's the right guy to go after, but I would be shocked if we don't hear his name connected to Clevealnd again. That's really why I threw his name out there really. I'd be willing to go 2 if the money was cheap enough, but I'd only go there if other options fell thru. He has shown over several years that he can put up a decent OBP (other than 2010).

I suppose some team may be willing to offer him a deal similar to what Adam LaRoche got from Washington...2 years plus a mutual option. That was coming off a 25 HR season as well (OPS wasn't as good though but solid). LaRoche had a much better track record with multiple 20 HR seasons prior. We'll see though.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:51 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:From what I understand, the Rays got Kotchman and we got Johnson around the same time. Watched Guyer and he looks like a keeper to me. Better than your usual 4th OF but not a star when I watched him against Columbus. RHPs seem to get him out with breaking balls away so he'd fit well with the Indians. :pleasantry:


Rays signed Kotchman end of January, and the Indians signed Johnson first week of March from how I understand it. Again, not to keep harping but there were multiple outlets saying the Tribe was showing interest in Kotchman last winter. Tony even made mention of it in one of his tribe happenings articles. Perhaps the Indians completely moved on...but 1B is a bigger need now than it was last winter IMO and Kotchman just had his best year as a pro.

Does he truely fit? meh, lefty with no power...not what we really need, but he does get on base. Sounds a lot like a 1B version of Fukudome who the Tribe got this summer (Tribe also showed interest in him when he first came to the US).

I agree mostly on Guyer, though do still think he has the ability to be a solid regular. Wouldn't be betting on him making any trips to the mid-summer classic, but he's got speed, some pop, and a solid defender in the corner. Walk rate is a concern, but I've been impressed the few times I've seen him.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:55 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:From what I understand, the Rays got Kotchman and we got Johnson around the same time. Watched Guyer and he looks like a keeper to me. Better than your usual 4th OF but not a star when I watched him against Columbus. RHPs seem to get him out with breaking balls away so he'd fit well with the Indians. :pleasantry:


Rays signed Kotchman end of January, and the Indians signed Johnson first week of March from how I understand it. Again, not to keep harping but there were multiple outlets saying the Tribe was showing interest in Kotchman last winter. Tony even made mention of it in one of his tribe happenings articles. Perhaps the Indians completely moved on...but 1B is a bigger need now than it was last winter IMO and Kotchman just had his best year as a pro.

Does he truely fit? meh, lefty with no power...not what we really need, but he does get on base. Sounds a lot like a 1B version of Fukudome who the Tribe got this summer (Tribe also showed interest in him when he first came to the US).


LaRoche is a good comp as they were once traded for each other but I'd prefer Adam having seen both play in Atlanta. Casey was really nothing special in his season + down here. Both guys have good gloves and good gloves at 1B save errors by the other IF guys. If we were to take a lefty 1B then I'd rather have one with more power. This team needs a righty hitter and 1B appears to be the spot.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:01 pm

daingean wrote:LaRoche is a good comp as they were once traded for each other but I'd prefer Adam having seen both play in Atlanta. Casey was really nothing special in his season + down here. Both guys have good gloves and good gloves at 1B save errors by the other IF guys. If we were to take a lefty 1B then I'd rather have one with more power. This team needs a righty hitter and 1B appears to be the spot.


I'd prefer a healthy LaRoche. Shoulder injury kind of worries me. Reports I've seen have been somewhat positive, but they were with Grady this year too. Would be interesting to see if the Nats would move him. They do have Morse who can stay at 1B. LaRoche got $9M guaranteed left ($8M next year + $1M buyout)....may be willing to eat some salary (or Grady straight up for him?). Injury risk but I'd take 20-25 HRs that a healthy LaRoche gives (don't like his salary though).


I agree 1B is a spot to add a RH bat...though LF/CF is just as good a spot to do it IMO. Also agree on a lefty 1B with more power (Pena if his price is ok?), but we say this summer that you can't always get the guy you want. I doubt Fukudome was at the top of the Tribe's wishlist as far as OFers. I could see us settling on a guy like Kotchman if a few other avenues turn out to be dead ends....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:33 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I'd prefer a healthy LaRoche. Shoulder injury kind of worries me. Reports I've seen have been somewhat positive, but they were with Grady this year too. Would be interesting to see if the Nats would move him. They do have Morse who can stay at 1B. LaRoche got $9M guaranteed left ($8M next year + $1M buyout)....may be willing to eat some salary (or Grady straight up for him?). Injury risk but I'd take 20-25 HRs that a healthy LaRoche gives (don't like his salary though).


I agree 1B is a spot to add a RH bat...though LF/CF is just as good a spot to do it IMO. Also agree on a lefty 1B with more power (Pena if his price is ok?), but we say this summer that you can't always get the guy you want. I doubt Fukudome was at the top of the Tribe's wishlist as far as OFers. I could see us settling on a guy like Kotchman if a few other avenues turn out to be dead ends....


Yes a healthy LaRoche. Shoulder is somewhat a concern but not as much for a 1B unless it cuts his power by a 4th or more. Anyway with LaPorta on board, I'd rather pass on Kotchman (I would rather set my sights a little bit lower on someone to compete with LaPorta and Mills for 1B) as while Kotchman's OBP is nice I'd rather have power potential than OBP out of 1B (just my opinion).

Now Sizemore for LaRoche is intriguing if we can add a CF (preferably a RH). That way LaPorta (if he makes the team) can be the 1B/LF with Brantley being the primary LF but filling in CF. If we can add a BJ Upton then yes see if the Nats would go there but my guess (having watch quite a few Washington v. Braves games) is the Nats have seen enough of Morse at 1B (the guy really is a butcher there but I've said that more than once).
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:41 pm

I'm not writing off LaPorta just yet. Getting sent down to Columbus in August was a slap upside the head. They told him he needed to start hitting to all fields and he got the message. When he came back in September he looked like a different hitter. He was taking the outside pitches to right field and up the middle. In September he hit .333/.389/.485/.874. I know, it was only 33 at-bats, but the point is that he had a different approach at the plate and it got excellent results. I want to see what he can do if he continues that approach over a full season.

The names that have been brought up (Pena, LaRoche, etc) just don't excite me that much. I'd rather give LaPorta another year with the stipulation that if he goes back to his old "pull everything and be a sucker for breaking balls away" style of hitting his butt will be right back in Columbus, this time for good. I don't have a problem with Santana playing first and Marson catching every day.
Prosecutor
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:07 pm

I think LaPorta likely gets another shot as next seasons starting 1B.... I am OK with that provided the indians have a good back-up plan - not Santana. I am not writing off moving Santana to 1B permanently at some in the future, but right now behind the plate is where he needs to be and LaPorta needs to be given a little more rope... If he has a similar year next season though, I do pull his plug a lot quicker in favor a other options, including Santana at 1B and Marson or? at C. That would be quite a blow, not only having a busty situation with LaPorta but having to sacrifce Santanas premium position because the tribe can't fill it. For that reason alone the tribe will look at making some sort of move to shore up 1B. Might be a sturdy vet to back-up LaPorta or a flat out UPGRADE, which is what I prefer. :wink: :s_yes

Signing Willingham would could be a very good fit here because of this. Ready to roam the OF and ready to man 1B if LaPorta doesn't get it. OF and 1B would be your obvious targets to improve this off-season and there are lots of guys like that out there like that whether it be FA or trades - the tribe will definitely look to add a RH hitter this off-season and it won't be at 2nd, 3rd or SS..player maybe... but not hitter..

Also, go Duncan. I know, I know but thinks he totally deserves a shot to be the platoon LF/DH guy. He had a nice season at the plate and based on what I saw would be more willing to gamble on him next season... I think he could have a pretty good year and the tribe might already be considering options that will utilize him more.
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:28 am

criznit2009 wrote:I think LaPorta likely gets another shot as next seasons starting 1B.... I am OK with that provided the indians have a good back-up plan - not Santana. I am not writing off moving Santana to 1B permanently at some in the future, but right now behind the plate is where he needs to be and LaPorta needs to be given a little more rope... If he has a similar year next season though, I do pull his plug a lot quicker in favor a other options, including Santana at 1B and Marson or? at C. That would be quite a blow, not only having a busty situation with LaPorta but having to sacrifce Santanas premium position because the tribe can't fill it. For that reason alone the tribe will look at making some sort of move to shore up 1B. Might be a sturdy vet to back-up LaPorta or a flat out UPGRADE, which is what I prefer. :wink: :s_yes

Signing Willingham would could be a very good fit here because of this. Ready to roam the OF and ready to man 1B if LaPorta doesn't get it. OF and 1B would be your obvious targets to improve this off-season and there are lots of guys like that out there like that whether it be FA or trades - the tribe will definitely look to add a RH hitter this off-season and it won't be at 2nd, 3rd or SS..player maybe... but not hitter..

Also, go Duncan. I know, I know but thinks he totally deserves a shot to be the platoon LF/DH guy. He had a nice season at the plate and based on what I saw would be more willing to gamble on him next season... I think he could have a pretty good year and the tribe might already be considering options that will utilize him more.

Willingham just does not hit LHP very well from what I see. Same with his defense IMO. Pretty much a Duncan clone. He does not have a good OBP and strikes out quite a lot. Should fit right in with our current flailers. I would guess he will get $8-10M per for 2-3 yrs. Seems a bit pricey for his age and injury history but not a lot of viable options that I see. For that type of money I would rather have the defense and flexibility that Cuddyer gives you if he can be pried out of Minnesota without overpaying. :friends:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:44 am

Can't see any ways Willingham can help this team. He does not score a lot of runs, low batting average and strikes out a ton. How are we going to improve a category we led the league in (strike outs) by adding a player with the one big bullet we have in the off-season who won't help us improve. This team needs to score more runs and that all starts with putting the ball in play.

I'm campaigning for McCutcheon, Markakis and Swisher. They are available by trade. I'd even be tempted to make Chisenhall the key component in a trade for any one of the three and play Hannahan at 3B.

Prosecutor, agree on LaPorta. He was noticeably different at the plate upon his return from Columbus. There is a really good chance he can become the player we need him to be.
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:59 am

ironmike wrote:Can't see any ways Willingham can help this team. He does not score a lot of runs, low batting average and strikes out a ton. How are we going to improve a category we led the league in (strike outs) by adding a player with the one big bullet we have in the off-season who won't help us improve. This team needs to score more runs and that all starts with putting the ball in play.

I'm campaigning for McCutcheon, Markakis and Swisher. They are available by trade. I'd even be tempted to make Chisenhall the key component in a trade for any one of the three and play Hannahan at 3B.

Prosecutor, agree on LaPorta. He was noticeably different at the plate upon his return from Columbus. There is a really good chance he can become the player we need him to be.


There is no way in the world Markakis is available. The Oriole owner Angelos, who is of Greek decent, would never get rid of Nick, also of Greek decent and who Angelos convinced him to play for Greece in the 2004 Olympics.

McCutcheon would also not be available. He is the center piece in the Pirates plan to be competitive. The Pirates, like the Indians, were competitive for better than half the season.

Swisher may be available. The Yankees need pitching (both starters and relievers).

I would not put Chiz in a deal though. The Indians need guys that have lower payroll and produce. That is the only way this team stays competitive in this economic environment. That's not an excuse. That's a FACT!!!
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:15 am

Positive many would have said Jimenez was not available in a trade. The Indians need to acquire extraordinary position players via trade if they want to compete and win the A.L. Central in the next few years. Every player is available for the right price. I'd go big and beyond to get a true impact position player without expensing any of our starting pitching. Carmona has no real value and the Indians should pass on his option and use the money to obtain the impact, all-around player they need. Trading for an impact player will cost them there best lower level prospects, plus other pieces. The young prospects are much easier to replace.

Baltimore should trade Markakis. They need to get past 4 teams to improve. Trading Markakis could fill multiple holes for the Orioles. Ditto for the Pirates. It is the teams that value winning first and players / prospects second that win. The Yankees will have their sites set on CJ Wilson and the Japanese pitcher who is a free agent. Swisher could be pried loose with a number of different combinations the Indians could offer.
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:27 am

The A's & Josh Wilingham's agent have met with the A's GM telling Willingham's agent that no decision has been made on spending for the 2012 season. It was further reported that until the situation with the A's new stadium issue is resolved, the A's FO will remain in a spending holding pattern. It was then reported that Willingham will now certainly test the FA market.. Up until this point, Willingham has steadfastly claimed he wanted to return to the A's for the 2012 season and beyond. The A's outfield is now officially a complete mess. (the difference from before, it was mostly a mess). The A's will have none of their three incumbent starting OF'ers back with the club if Willingham departs. CoCo Crisp and David DeJesus are both FA's and are looking to escape those cold and lonely nights in Oakland.. The mess won't get better any time soon as the depth in the A's minor leagues is pretty much a series of question marks. Chris Carter (CC) and Michael Taylor (MT) are their two most advanced candidates for starting spots in 2012 with both having had short trials in the ML's in 2011 Both have shown huge holes in their swings: CC had 20 K's in 44 AB's. MT had 11 K's in 30 AB's. The only other OF candidate appears to be Michael Choice, but he's at least two years away.. and Indians fans think our teepee has sprung a leak.. be happy the Indians don't have the mess that the A's do..
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:50 am

ironmike wrote:Positive many would have said Jimenez was not available in a trade. The Indians need to acquire extraordinary position players via trade if they want to compete and win the A.L. Central in the next few years. Every player is available for the right price. I'd go big and beyond to get a true impact position player without expensing any of our starting pitching. Carmona has no real value and the Indians should pass on his option and use the money to obtain the impact, all-around player they need. Trading for an impact player will cost them there best lower level prospects, plus other pieces. The young prospects are much easier to replace.

Baltimore should trade Markakis. They need to get past 4 teams to improve. Trading Markakis could fill multiple holes for the Orioles. Ditto for the Pirates. It is the teams that value winning first and players / prospects second that win. The Yankees will have their sites set on CJ Wilson and the Japanese pitcher who is a free agent. Swisher could be pried loose with a number of different combinations the Indians could offer.


Go big or go home strategy... in Cleveland?..

Swisher has a one year club option for $ 10.25 MM. Prying him loose for a one year rental is a fools errand. If his option is declined, then, as a FA, he may be a possibility, but, not likely.

Nick Markakis is one of the main center pieces for the O's as they continue their rebuild. He is owed $ 60 MM over the next four seasons including the last year club option. He has a No Trade Clause as well.. His price tag would be beyond ridiculous in addition to his salary.

McCutchen is NOT available. PERIOD. Overtures to the effect of acquiring him are wasted keystrokes..Other Pirate OF'er may be available.. like Xavier Paul, Alex Presley or Jose Tabata.. and all three of these guys would fit within the framework of an Indians / Pirates trade:

Indians Get: One of Jose Tabata/Xavier Paul/Alex Presley

Pirates Get: One of Jason Donald/Cord Phelps

A larger trade may be contemplated, but, a simple one for one is more likely..
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:06 am

ironmike wrote:Positive many would have said Jimenez was not available in a trade. The Indians need to acquire extraordinary position players via trade if they want to compete and win the A.L. Central in the next few years. Every player is available for the right price. I'd go big and beyond to get a true impact position player without expensing any of our starting pitching. Carmona has no real value and the Indians should pass on his option and use the money to obtain the impact, all-around player they need. Trading for an impact player will cost them there best lower level prospects, plus other pieces. The young prospects are much easier to replace.

Baltimore should trade Markakis. They need to get past 4 teams to improve. Trading Markakis could fill multiple holes for the Orioles. Ditto for the Pirates. It is the teams that value winning first and players / prospects second that win. The Yankees will have their sites set on CJ Wilson and the Japanese pitcher who is a free agent. Swisher could be pried loose with a number of different combinations the Indians could offer.


No matter what the deal, the Pirates will not benefit from trading McCutcheon. You could package Chis, Weglarz, Rondon and Hagadone (4 of our best remaining prospects) and it STILL wouldn't make sense for the Pirates. You're crazy if you think he's available. Jimenez was available because he was struggling a bit, and the Rockies wanted to free up the money to spend elsewhere, and they were out of the playoff hunt. The Pirates were in the hunt this year, and figure to be doing the same next year. They have no need to be picking up prospects for their best player. The only way that trade would start making sense for them is if you started throwing in Kipnis or Santana. Then the trade makes no sense for the Indians.

Markakis' contract is an albatross (making $12M next year, $15m in 2013 and 2014, option for $17.5M in 2015). You could get similar if not better production from Willingham, and sign him for a 2 year deal whereas Markakis would be signed through 2014 and making way more money. Also, Markakis is left-handed, so he wouldn't help that aspect of this team. Also, prying him loose in a trade will be exceedingly difficult and will likely cost way too much as prospects go. How much do you really want to pay for a guy who had a .756 OPS last year?

Swisher wouldn't be awful, but the Yankees have never been the type to part with major leaguers for prospects. Also, he'd be a one-year rental, as this year is the last in his contract (assuming the Yankees pick up his option, which I do). He's also not significantly better than Josh Willingham.

Prospects-for-players deals, as you're advocating for, generally don't happen until mid-season. That's when teams have fallen out of the hunt and can be a little more objective about their chances and why it might not be best to keep around some of their soon-to-be free agents. Until then, most teams go into the off-season thinking that they want to contend next year. There are exceptions (Halladay was traded in the off-season), but in general that's not the route the Indians should be going this winter.
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:25 am

One thing that people seem to forget about Willingham is that he's basically a DH. Given Hafner's struggles with the bat and his health, it's not a bad thing to have Willingham, but his play in the field is pretty much atrocious so there's very little versatility there.

Personally, I'd only consider him an option if he could be had for no more than $5M-6M and that is unlikely. Actually, none of the targeted free agents appeal to me this year as they're either not very good or too expensive. Sadly for us those two might go hand in hand. Cuddyer would be nice, but no way should we sign him to a 3-year deal worth $30M.
User avatar
JP_Frost
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2117
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:25 pm

ironmike wrote:Positive many would have said Jimenez was not available in a trade. The Indians need to acquire extraordinary position players via trade if they want to compete and win the A.L. Central in the next few years. Every player is available for the right price. I'd go big and beyond to get a true impact position player without expensing any of our starting pitching. Carmona has no real value and the Indians should pass on his option and use the money to obtain the impact, all-around player they need. Trading for an impact player will cost them there best lower level prospects, plus other pieces. The young prospects are much easier to replace.

Baltimore should trade Markakis. They need to get past 4 teams to improve. Trading Markakis could fill multiple holes for the Orioles. Ditto for the Pirates. It is the teams that value winning first and players / prospects second that win. The Yankees will have their sites set on CJ Wilson and the Japanese pitcher who is a free agent. Swisher could be pried loose with a number of different combinations the Indians could offer.


That's like saying the Indians should have traded Cabrera before this past season because we had so many teams to get past. Trading Markakis is not happening. He's locked up thru 2015. Heck, the O's just extended Hardy so they aren't looking (or should say most likely) to move guys like that. Now slim chance they could consider moving Adam Jones if they can't extend him this winter. He's only 2 got more controllable years, both via arby (same as CAbrera/Choo). If they can't work something out maybe they are willing to move him....and would be a guy I'd be interested in (moreso than Markakis). There are a few guys on the O's I'd consider in addition (Guthrie, Reynolds) and Showalter does have ties to the Cleveland FO. Just can't see Markakis.

Ditto on McCutchen. As others have said, not available. And even if he was....not sure we have enough to get a guy like that really.


I do think your Swisher target is viable at least. Nova is scheduled for an MRI on his arm today (not sure if the results have come out yet?). Yanks will be in near desperation mode if he ends up being out for an extended period. Even a guy like Carmona could be of some interest to them. I could see the Yanks adding a guy like Cuddyer this winter (or trying to) as he can play all over and spell Rodriguez at 3B (when he's DHing) and start in RF (should they move Swish). Swish is a perfect fit for us IMO. Can play the cOF and 1B. Hits lefties well, good team guy.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:33 pm

JP_Frost wrote:One thing that people seem to forget about Willingham is that he's basically a DH. Given Hafner's struggles with the bat and his health, it's not a bad thing to have Willingham, but his play in the field is pretty much atrocious so there's very little versatility there.

Personally, I'd only consider him an option if he could be had for no more than $5M-6M and that is unlikely. Actually, none of the targeted free agents appeal to me this year as they're either not very good or too expensive. Sadly for us those two might go hand in hand. Cuddyer would be nice, but no way should we sign him to a 3-year deal worth $30M.


meh....call me crazy but I wouldn't be totally opposed to a 3yr/$30M deal for Cuddyer. Say we do bring back Grady....who's the 3rd OFer in 2013 then? What if LaPorta doesn't bounce back? We have a hole at 1B and DH then in 2013 possible.

Realize Cuddyer is on the wrong side of 30 and the Tribe isn't exactly overflowing with cash to spend, but the guy hits lefties and is just so versatile. I'd try for a 3/$25 or a Wood-like deal with vesting option but think he ends up with more than $30M this winter elsewhere (or takes a discount to stay in Minny). He's arguably teh best free agent OFer...which is kind of sad.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:40 pm

Edible14 wrote:Prospects-for-players deals, as you're advocating for, generally don't happen until mid-season. That's when teams have fallen out of the hunt and can be a little more objective about their chances and why it might not be best to keep around some of their soon-to-be free agents. Until then, most teams go into the off-season thinking that they want to contend next year. There are exceptions (Halladay was traded in the off-season), but in general that's not the route the Indians should be going this winter.


hmm, there are a lot of examples of prospect for player deals in the winter. Crisp, Greinke, Marcum, Gonzalez, Cabrera/Willis, Haren (to the D'backs), Cliff Lee (to the Mariners), etc.

I see no issue with the Tribe going the route of the Brewers and trying to add via trade. Their window is small like the Brewers' was. Speaking of...a team that you may be able to trade with when they lose Fielder. They still have a decent core, but I don't know if they can compete without him. Probably wait til midseason though to see.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:45 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Prospects-for-players deals, as you're advocating for, generally don't happen until mid-season. That's when teams have fallen out of the hunt and can be a little more objective about their chances and why it might not be best to keep around some of their soon-to-be free agents. Until then, most teams go into the off-season thinking that they want to contend next year. There are exceptions (Halladay was traded in the off-season), but in general that's not the route the Indians should be going this winter.


hmm, there are a lot of examples of prospect for player deals in the winter. Crisp, Greinke, Marcum, Gonzalez, Cabrera/Willis, Haren (to the D'backs), Cliff Lee (to the Mariners), etc.

I see no issue with the Tribe going the route of the Brewers and trying to add via trade. Their window is small like the Brewers' was. Speaking of...a team that you may be able to trade with when they lose Fielder. They still have a decent core, but I don't know if they can compete without him. Probably wait til midseason though to see.


The Brewers have pitching and Braun, Hart and Weeks. Even if they do lose Fielder, I think they can add a piece or 2 to stay competitive.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:55 pm

daingean wrote:hmm, there are a lot of examples of prospect for player deals in the winter. Crisp, Greinke, Marcum, Gonzalez, Cabrera/Willis, Haren (to the D'backs), Cliff Lee (to the Mariners), etc.

I see no issue with the Tribe going the route of the Brewers and trying to add via trade. Their window is small like the Brewers' was. Speaking of...a team that you may be able to trade with when they lose Fielder. They still have a decent core, but I don't know if they can compete without him. Probably wait til midseason though to see.


The Brewers have pitching and Braun, Hart and Weeks. Even if they do lose Fielder, I think they can add a piece or 2 to stay competitive.[/quote]

Yeah probably, though that division looks like it could be real competitive next year. I don't think the Brewers win that division this year without Fielder to be honest. Think we will see Greinke on the block at some point (unless they can work out an extension...which is possible). Marcum is a free agent after the year too.

You're right htough, this winter they probably don't move anyone. Several other teams though that could be looking to deal (Rays, Orioles)
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:00 pm

It has been reported that the Reds will listen to offers for 1B Joey Votto this winter. The "reasoning" seems to be that the Reds could not afford him in 2013 and he is a FA in 2014.

As to whether the Indians should pursue him, the answer would be yes. As to whether they could afford him, the answer would be yes. In 2012, Votto will make about what Sizemore's option is, (so decline it). In 2014 Votto will make $17 million. But remember Hafners contract will be gone in 2014. (That's more than Hafner's contract, but there quite a difference in production.)

In 2011 Votto went .309/.416 (led NL)/.531. The only negative I can think of is that he is LH.

I would be more than happy to go to war with the Tigers next year with a lineup of:
Michael Brantley - CF
J. Kipnis 2B
ACab - SS
J. Votto 1B
C Santana C
S. Choo RF
T. Hafner DH
J. Willingham LF
L. Chisenhall 3B
(There it is, folks. Your first dream lineup of the offseason). :s_thumbsup

So the question becomes who would the Reds accept in a package. Remember, there seems to be a wealth of good 1B playing right now. We might not have competition from the usual suspects.
I'd offer something like Carmona, (or any SP other than Masterson and Ubaldo), Laporta, and a choice of Pestano or Sipp. I love those last 2 guys, but we have so much RP in the system right now, it might be a good time to move some.
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:12 pm

I think an acquisition of Votto would be more likely after next offseason than this one as I'd think the Reds will try to contend for one last season before their key players depart (Brandon Phillips namely). Acquiring Yonder Alonso is more likely than Votto, in my opinion.

If the Indians were able to add Votto, it would undoubtedly gut the system to White Sox farm system levels. Votto is superior to all 1B not named Albert Pujols, offensively and defensively, so I'm not sure the Indians can offer up a deal that's worth Votto's talents.

Make it happen, though. I'd love to have an actual 1B on the team for the first time in my baseball watching life.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:I think an acquisition of Votto would be more likely after next offseason than this one as I'd think the Reds will try to contend for one last season before their key players depart (Brandon Phillips namely). Acquiring Yonder Alonso is more likely than Votto, in my opinion.

If the Indians were able to add Votto, it would undoubtedly gut the system to White Sox farm system levels. Votto is superior to all 1B not named Albert Pujols, offensively and defensively, so I'm not sure the Indians can offer up a deal that's worth Votto's talents.

Make it happen, though. I'd love to have an actual 1B on the team for the first time in my baseball watching life.


I would love to see this one but....Even though it is a long shot (it is for every ML team right now) the tribe does have a lot of intersting guys they could include in a deal - so it is possible. Think a package for Votto would have to include some serious meat, think Rondon, Barnes, Brantley, Chen, Choo(?), Lee, LaPorta, Wolters, Aguliar, Donald, Marson, Mills etc.
criznit2009
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:09 pm

I figure Rafael Perez and possibly Lou Marson will be dealt in a deal for BJ Upton (as was rumored this season)...

If the Indians truly think their cycle of contention ends after 2013, then I think they should pull out all the stops and try and acquire Votto, even if the price is steep. Although this seems like a Fantasy Baseball type transaction to me... Kinda like the wishes of acquiring Andrew McCutchen and Matt Kemp were from certain posters earlier in the year.

My "Fantasy" Indians lineup:

1B: Votto
2B: Kipnis
3B: Chisenhall
SS: Cabrera
LF: Brantley or Willingham
CF: Upton
RF: CHoo
DH: Hafner
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:18 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:I figure Rafael Perez and possibly Lou Marson will be dealt in a deal for BJ Upton (as was rumored this season)...

If the Indians truly think their cycle of contention ends after 2013, then I think they should pull out all the stops and try and acquire Votto, even if the price is steep. Although this seems like a Fantasy Baseball type transaction to me... Kinda like the wishes of acquiring Andrew McCutchen and Matt Kemp were from certain posters earlier in the year.

My "Fantasy" Indians lineup:

1B: Votto
2B: Kipnis
3B: Chisenhall
SS: Cabrera
LF: Brantley or Willingham
CF: Upton
RF: CHoo
DH: Hafner


Votto? Keep dreaming on that one.. I would love to have him, but let's be realistic here... :drinks:
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:04 am

A.Zajac wrote:Votto? Keep dreaming on that one.. I would love to have him, but let's be realistic here... :drinks:


I was being realistic... when I said Yonder Alonso is more likely to be traded than Votto. Votto probably wouldn't be available for a trade until after next season anyhow (once the Franchise leaves), plus the guy is in line to make $19 Million in 2013, so he'd likely be out of our price range anyway.

Not delving into the realm of Fantasy Baseball again, Willingham and Carlos Pena should at least be on the Indians radar. Not keen on the previously discussed Kotchman. Think he's in for some major regression at the plate.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:14 am

Add Joey Votto to my list of Markakis, Swisher and McCutcheon.

Reds could be on the verge of making him available.

High average, scores lots of runs, big run producer and his K-BB ratio is very good.

Go big to get him.

If we dump Carmona and Sizemore the Indians can afford him.
User avatar
ironmike
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:12 am

ironmike wrote:Add Joey Votto to my list of Markakis, Swisher and McCutcheon.

Reds could be on the verge of making him available.

High average, scores lots of runs, big run producer and his K-BB ratio is very good.

Go big to get him.

If we dump Carmona and Sizemore the Indians can afford him.


With Carlos Carrasco on the shelf for the entire 2012 season, the likelihood of "dumping" Fausto Carmona doesn't look to promising.. Fausto can be frustrating to watch.. he doesn't throw enough strikes early in the counts.. he has a tendency to let little things become big innings for the opposition.. but, he's healthy and throws a LETHAL sinking fastball. When he's on.. his weapon is as good as any in MLB.. when he's off.. he gets shelled..

W/R to dumping Sizemore.. one year.. one last chance.. limit the chances of his option not being picked or or a contract re-negotiations..

W/R to your unavailable list (Markakis, McCutchen).. no further words are needed..

W/R to Swisher: He has shown a propensity to disappear in the playoffs.. while this may be a moot point for the Indians, he's not someone that fits in the Indians future..

W/R to Votto: The Reds are casting a very wide net, both from the perspective of what may be considered trade partner offerings.. but also in the form of creating a lever in their negotiations for a future contract extension. IS VOTTO really on the market?.. DOUBTFUL.. very doubtful...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:20 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Prospects-for-players deals, as you're advocating for, generally don't happen until mid-season. That's when teams have fallen out of the hunt and can be a little more objective about their chances and why it might not be best to keep around some of their soon-to-be free agents. Until then, most teams go into the off-season thinking that they want to contend next year. There are exceptions (Halladay was traded in the off-season), but in general that's not the route the Indians should be going this winter.


hmm, there are a lot of examples of prospect for player deals in the winter. Crisp, Greinke, Marcum, Gonzalez, Cabrera/Willis, Haren (to the D'backs), Cliff Lee (to the Mariners), etc.


Okay, that's true. But you'll notice that most of those trades aren't of the "we're not contending, so we're trading" variety. They were usually motivated by depth or financial motivation. Neither of which would apply to trading for McCutcheon or Markakis, as IronMike was suggesting.

But you're right, they happen.
User avatar
Edible14
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:49 am

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:16 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Prospects-for-players deals, as you're advocating for, generally don't happen until mid-season. That's when teams have fallen out of the hunt and can be a little more objective about their chances and why it might not be best to keep around some of their soon-to-be free agents. Until then, most teams go into the off-season thinking that they want to contend next year. There are exceptions (Halladay was traded in the off-season), but in general that's not the route the Indians should be going this winter.


hmm, there are a lot of examples of prospect for player deals in the winter. Crisp, Greinke, Marcum, Gonzalez, Cabrera/Willis, Haren (to the D'backs), Cliff Lee (to the Mariners), etc.


Okay, that's true. But you'll notice that most of those trades aren't of the "we're not contending, so we're trading" variety. They were usually motivated by depth or financial motivation. Neither of which would apply to trading for McCutcheon or Markakis, as IronMike was suggesting.

But you're right, they happen.


meh, most of those were the we're not contending so we're trading variety. Agree that McCutcheon and Markakis arne't going anywhere though.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:20 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
W/R to Votto: The Reds are casting a very wide net, both from the perspective of what may be considered trade partner offerings.. but also in the form of creating a lever in their negotiations for a future contract extension. IS VOTTO really on the market?.. DOUBTFUL.. very doubtful...


Was Hunter Pence on the market, was Ubaldo? Everybody is on the market for the right price. I'm sure the Ubaldo negotiations started by the Indians offering Pom or White plus somebody else. The Rocks countered by asking for Pom and White and the Indians bit. Unless the Reds hangup on the Indians if they ask about Votto, then the negotiations will begin.

As far as ammunition for a Votto trade: the Indians could supply a combination of 1 SP (most of the BOR guys and prospects are interchangeable), plenty of RP, RP prospects, INF prospects, high ceiling lower Milb prospects, and Laporta. If the organization went all in for Ubaldo, then you should go strong after a former MVP in his prime. Especially when money is not a hangup.

And another thing,,,
There has got to be tremendous pressure on Antonetti to produce this offseason. Everyone can agree the Indians have a narrow window of contention in the next 2 years. If this opportunity goes by, and the Indians begin another rebuilding plan in 2014, it would not bode well for Antonetti's career. Especially after gutting the system for Ubaldo.
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:25 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
W/R to Votto: The Reds are casting a very wide net, both from the perspective of what may be considered trade partner offerings.. but also in the form of creating a lever in their negotiations for a future contract extension. IS VOTTO really on the market?.. DOUBTFUL.. very doubtful...


Was Hunter Pence on the market, was Ubaldo? Everybody is on the market for the right price. I'm sure the Ubaldo negotiations started by the Indians offering Pom or White plus somebody else. The Rocks countered by asking for Pom and White and the Indians bit. Unless the Reds hangup on the Indians if they ask about Votto, then the negotiations will begin.

As far as ammunition for a Votto trade: the Indians could supply a combination of 1 SP (most of the BOR guys and prospects are interchangeable), plenty of RP, RP prospects, INF prospects, high ceiling lower Milb prospects, and Laporta. If the organization went all in for Ubaldo, then you should go strong after a former MVP in his prime. Especially when money is not a hangup.

And another thing,,,
There has got to be tremendous pressure on Antonetti to produce this offseason. Everyone can agree the Indians have a narrow window of contention in the next 2 years. If this opportunity goes by, and the Indians begin another rebuilding plan in 2014, it would not bode well for Antonetti's career. Especially after gutting the system for Ubaldo.


Ubaldo got dealt for 2 top 50 prospects....same with Pence. Tribe has zero top 50 specs left (unless you think Lindor cracks it, but he couldn't be dealt til Spring Training really anyways).

Really unless you're willing to part with a ML guy like a Masterson, Santana, or Cabrera...I can't see how we get Votto this winter. Maybe some prospects step up mid-season and we have more to trade, but the system doesn't look strong enough at the top to get an MVP guy even with his future salary.

To me the Votto talk is probably going to turn out more like the Justin Upton talk than Pence/Ubaldo trade talks. I suppose never say never, and I'd defintely inquire on Votto...but just doesn't seem feasible with what we have to deal.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:02 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
W/R to Votto: The Reds are casting a very wide net, both from the perspective of what may be considered trade partner offerings.. but also in the form of creating a lever in their negotiations for a future contract extension. IS VOTTO really on the market?.. DOUBTFUL.. very doubtful...


Was Hunter Pence on the market, was Ubaldo? Everybody is on the market for the right price. I'm sure the Ubaldo negotiations started by the Indians offering Pom or White plus somebody else. The Rocks countered by asking for Pom and White and the Indians bit. Unless the Reds hangup on the Indians if they ask about Votto, then the negotiations will begin.

As far as ammunition for a Votto trade: the Indians could supply a combination of 1 SP (most of the BOR guys and prospects are interchangeable), plenty of RP, RP prospects, INF prospects, high ceiling lower Milb prospects, and Laporta. If the organization went all in for Ubaldo, then you should go strong after a former MVP in his prime. Especially when money is not a hangup.

And another thing,,,
There has got to be tremendous pressure on Antonetti to produce this offseason. Everyone can agree the Indians have a narrow window of contention in the next 2 years. If this opportunity goes by, and the Indians begin another rebuilding plan in 2014, it would not bode well for Antonetti's career. Especially after gutting the system for Ubaldo.


Ubaldo got dealt for 2 top 50 prospects....same with Pence. Tribe has zero top 50 specs left (unless you think Lindor cracks it, but he couldn't be dealt til Spring Training really anyways).

Really unless you're willing to part with a ML guy like a Masterson, Santana, or Cabrera...I can't see how we get Votto this winter. Maybe some prospects step up mid-season and we have more to trade, but the system doesn't look strong enough at the top to get an MVP guy even with his future salary.

To me the Votto talk is probably going to turn out more like the Justin Upton talk than Pence/Ubaldo trade talks. I suppose never say never, and I'd defintely inquire on Votto...but just doesn't seem feasible with what we have to deal.


I'm not saying the Reds couldn't get a better offer elsewhere. But who could use Votto more than the Indians right now? If you really had Votto on the market, wouldn't you think twice about a package of Chisenhall, J. Gomez, Pestano, and Jesus Aguilar? Those players are high ceiling/low money players, just like the Reds like. Plus they all could be replaced by the Indians (or are not part of this current window of contention). Just sayin'.
User avatar
GhostofTedCox
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:57 pm

I really don't think there's a reasonable chance of us landing Votto. Let's disregard the fact that teams like the Rays, Marlins, Cubs, Rangers and A's could all be trying to trade for him, they also have much better pieces to get a deal done. For us to land Votto we'd have to part with one (or two) of Masterson, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Santana or Cabrera. That hurts your major league roster big time especially since we basically have none to very marginal back ups at those positions.

Secondly, our farm system gets interesting the lower you go. I doubt that the Reds would take a chance on players with very little track record for a guy like Votto. You have to assume that they'd want a bonafide blue chip prospect and we simply don't have one. Even if we did, it begs to question if we should trade him. Obviously Votto is a great player and I'd love to see him in a Tribe uniform, but I really don't think adding him to our lineup would all of a sudden bridge the gap between us and the Tigers. We'd need more pieces to accomplish that and leaving your system barren for one player that probably doesn't take you over the top is a recipe for disaster.

I guess my point is that the Indians should certainly ask the Reds what it would take to get Votto, but if it means creating another hole at the major league level or completely selling your farm system (and chances are that it will take exactly that), the Tribe needs to bow out of the conversation.

Our strength lies in upper level minor league depth in terms of arms and particularly relievers, so we should try to deal from that. Setting your aim a little lower (i.e. Craig, Upton, Mayberry, LoGo, Sanchez) could probably equal the increase in productivity of Votto's while filling several holes and not creating new ones or gutting your farm system.
User avatar
JP_Frost
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2117
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:07 pm

This is just a personal opinion but if the Indians really have the money and players to go after Votto, I think they would be better off with less cost if they trade for Upton and give a FA deal to Cuddyer. The total player cost would be 2-3 lesser players than Votto would commnd and a 2nd round draft choice. While neither is the quality of Votto, the combined presence and flexibility they would bring to the Indians is far greater IMO. Just would not put all my eggs in one basket. The Indians cannot assume that all the rookies and 1st year regulars from this year are going to become the full time players the organization needs without some hiccups. I am not even convinced Choo will return to his prior form but, along with Donald and Duncan, these two players would do a great deal for the shortcoming the lineup has with LHP. I am not convinced the Indians have the money to do this without completely cutting the ties with Sizemore and trading one of arb eligibles but it would be worth the risk in my view.
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:13 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:This is just a personal opinion but if the Indians really have the money and players to go after Votto, I think they would be better off with less cost if they trade for Upton and give a FA deal to Cuddyer. The total player cost would be 2-3 lesser players than Votto would commnd and a 2nd round draft choice. While neither is the quality of Votto, the combined presence and flexibility they would bring to the Indians is far greater IMO. Just would not put all my eggs in one basket. The Indians cannot assume that all the rookies and 1st year regulars from this year are going to become the full time players the organization needs without some hiccups. I am not even convinced Choo will return to his prior form but, along with Donald and Duncan, these two players would do a great deal for the shortcoming the lineup has with LHP. I am not convinced the Indians have the money to do this without completely cutting the ties with Sizemore and trading one of arb eligibles but it would be worth the risk in my view.


hmmm.. The Indians arbitration eligible group: Justin Masterson, Jack Hannahan, Asdrubal Cabrera, Tony Sipp, Fausto Carmona, Shin-Soo Choo, Joe Smith, Rafael Perez and Chris Perez * If Fausto's contract for 2012 isnt picked up, then the Indians can offer him arbitration. Who in that group besides Masterson would make the Indians a better team than having Votto?.. none of them?.. all of them combined?..
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3949
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:16 pm

Jon Heyman's reporting that teams are showing interest in Votto. Blue Jays are supposedly one of them. Showing interest and actively pursuing a deal are two different things, however.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:53 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:Jon Heyman's reporting that teams are showing interest in Votto. Blue Jays are supposedly one of them. Showing interest and actively pursuing a deal are two different things, however.


With Votto being Canadian, I could really see the Blue Jays making a strong push. Certainly the Tribe should pursue a trade for him but anyone who thinks the Indians having enough to pry the reigning NL MVP away from the Reds is dreaming. We would have to give up either Masterson or Ubaldo to get him (in my opinion) if not both (my guess). With Votto minus Masterson I see the Tribe not gaining much in the standings.
daingean
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:13 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:This is just a personal opinion but if the Indians really have the money and players to go after Votto, I think they would be better off with less cost if they trade for Upton and give a FA deal to Cuddyer. The total player cost would be 2-3 lesser players than Votto would commnd and a 2nd round draft choice. While neither is the quality of Votto, the combined presence and flexibility they would bring to the Indians is far greater IMO. Just would not put all my eggs in one basket. The Indians cannot assume that all the rookies and 1st year regulars from this year are going to become the full time players the organization needs without some hiccups. I am not even convinced Choo will return to his prior form but, along with Donald and Duncan, these two players would do a great deal for the shortcoming the lineup has with LHP. I am not convinced the Indians have the money to do this without completely cutting the ties with Sizemore and trading one of arb eligibles but it would be worth the risk in my view.


Money shouldn't be much of an issue with Votto as he makes less than what Cuddyer made this year (depending when his signing bonus is due/when we would acquire him). Cuddyer and Upton together though will make more than Votto in 2012 for sure. I'm with you, I'd prefer Upton and Cuddyer to just Votto, but Votto may only get about $3-3.5M more than Upton alone.

I agree you would be hard pressed to get both Upton and Cuddyer without letting Grady go or moving an arby guy though. Also agree about putting all the eggs in one basket....though Votto is a guy I'd consider doing that for.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:17 pm

daingean wrote:
Magneticnorth451 wrote:Jon Heyman's reporting that teams are showing interest in Votto. Blue Jays are supposedly one of them. Showing interest and actively pursuing a deal are two different things, however.


With Votto being Canadian, I could really see the Blue Jays making a strong push. Certainly the Tribe should pursue a trade for him but anyone who thinks the Indians having enough to pry the reigning NL MVP away from the Reds is dreaming. We would have to give up either Masterson or Ubaldo to get him (in my opinion) if not both (my guess). With Votto minus Masterson I see the Tribe not gaining much in the standings.


Yeah the Blue Jays do make a ton of sense for Votto. Bautista and Votto in the middle of that lineup would scary....especially if Lawrie continues to develop.


Well I think the Reds would be nuts to try and get both Masterson and Ubaldo, but 1 would make sense. An intersting idea would be to push Tomlin in a deal. He's obviously not on that level, but he's cheaper and under control longer. Reds really seem to like Arroyo for his ability to eat innings and will live with his HRs allowed. Would Chiz and Tomlin keep the Reds listening?
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:17 pm

Not to veer off the subject of Votto, but wasn't Chris Iannetta rumored to be on the Indians radar? He's an upgrade to Marson at the plate, at least, especially if he's shipped off to Tampa Bay for Upton.
Magneticnorth451
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:21 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:57 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:Not to veer off the subject of Votto, but wasn't Chris Iannetta rumored to be on the Indians radar? He's an upgrade to Marson at the plate, at least, especially if he's shipped off to Tampa Bay for Upton.


He is a bit of an upgrade over Marson. Defintiely more power, but you lose a lil defense (IMO) and he's similar to Marson in that he's much better against lefties than righties (was respectable against righties though this year). He only makes sense to me if you move Marson (or decide you want him to have a full year in AAA), but definitely someone to keep an eye on this winter.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:21 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:This is just a personal opinion but if the Indians really have the money and players to go after Votto, I think they would be better off with less cost if they trade for Upton and give a FA deal to Cuddyer. The total player cost would be 2-3 lesser players than Votto would commnd and a 2nd round draft choice. While neither is the quality of Votto, the combined presence and flexibility they would bring to the Indians is far greater IMO. Just would not put all my eggs in one basket. The Indians cannot assume that all the rookies and 1st year regulars from this year are going to become the full time players the organization needs without some hiccups. I am not even convinced Choo will return to his prior form but, along with Donald and Duncan, these two players would do a great deal for the shortcoming the lineup has with LHP. I am not convinced the Indians have the money to do this without completely cutting the ties with Sizemore and trading one of arb eligibles but it would be worth the risk in my view.


Money shouldn't be much of an issue with Votto as he makes less than what Cuddyer made this year (depending when his signing bonus is due/when we would acquire him). Cuddyer and Upton together though will make more than Votto in 2012 for sure. I'm with you, I'd prefer Upton and Cuddyer to just Votto, but Votto may only get about $3-3.5M more than Upton alone.

I agree you would be hard pressed to get both Upton and Cuddyer without letting Grady go or moving an arby guy though. Also agree about putting all the eggs in one basket....though Votto is a guy I'd consider doing that for.

Agree with you about 2012 even with most of the arb players salary included but, unless the salary scale changes dramatically, 2013 and beyond would favor the Tribe. Concur on Votto's value but hard to see the Indians make that kind of monetary and player investment even after Hafner is off the books in 2013. Personally, I would rather see the Tribe continue to compete the Tampa/Milwaukee way than try to make a big short term run but that's a personal choice. :pleasantry:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Chiefroy » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:15 am

JP_Frost wrote:I really don't think there's a reasonable chance of us landing Votto. Let's disregard the fact that teams like the Rays, Marlins, Cubs, Rangers and A's could all be trying to trade for him, they also have much better pieces to get a deal done. For us to land Votto we'd have to part with one (or two) of Masterson, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Santana or Cabrera. That hurts your major league roster big time especially since we basically have none to very marginal back ups at those positions.

Secondly, our farm system gets interesting the lower you go. I doubt that the Reds would take a chance on players with very little track record for a guy like Votto. You have to assume that they'd want a bonafide blue chip prospect and we simply don't have one. Even if we did, it begs to question if we should trade him. Obviously Votto is a great player and I'd love to see him in a Tribe uniform, but I really don't think adding him to our lineup would all of a sudden bridge the gap between us and the Tigers. We'd need more pieces to accomplish that and leaving your system barren for one player that probably doesn't take you over the top is a recipe for disaster.

I guess my point is that the Indians should certainly ask the Reds what it would take to get Votto, but if it means creating another hole at the major league level or completely selling your farm system (and chances are that it will take exactly that), the Tribe needs to bow out of the conversation.

Our strength lies in upper level minor league depth in terms of arms and particularly relievers, so we should try to deal from that. Setting your aim a little lower (i.e. Craig, Upton, Mayberry, LoGo, Sanchez) could probably equal the increase in productivity of Votto's while filling several holes and not creating new ones or gutting your farm system.


:good: I agree with everything JP had to say here. A more reasonable target and the guy I would inquire about is Allen Craig. Righthanded bat who had a nice year in limited action with some good minor league years in the past. Could be ready to breakout in 2012 given the right opportunity. Put him in the mix at 1B and/or LF and those positions look not so glum. We don't need much offensive upgrade considering we should have everyone back at 100%(hopefully incl. Sizemore return). A righty bat to push LaPorta and Duncan and to give us OF depth is what's needed, especially if Sizemore doesn't return. We had a good 2011 considering all the injuries and 2012 should be even better.
Chiefroy
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:49 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Agree with you about 2012 even with most of the arb players salary included but, unless the salary scale changes dramatically, 2013 and beyond would favor the Tribe. Concur on Votto's value but hard to see the Indians make that kind of monetary and player investment even after Hafner is off the books in 2013. Personally, I would rather see the Tribe continue to compete the Tampa/Milwaukee way than try to make a big short term run but that's a personal choice. :pleasantry:


hmm, lil confused here. Do you want the Tribe to complete the Tampa way or the Milwaukee way? Cause they are complete opposites. Rays trade away guys hitting arbitration/let vets walk. Brewers have been handing out prospects like they were candy lately (LaPorta, Brantley, Escobar, Cain, Lawrie, Gilaspie, Jeffries, Odruzzi, etc).

I do agree, hard to see the Tribe commit $19M to Votto in 2013 even if it's just 1 last year in 2013. Even with Hafner mostly off the books, that's a huge chunk of change. Would almost need to make the deal for 2012 only...then turn around and find a buyer the following winter.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

PreviousNext

Return to Beyond The Minors

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests