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What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

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What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby ironmike » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:29 pm

How many games have our regulars missed this year versus other teams in our division? Is it just one of the things or are players fatiqued? Fatique can cause injuries. Our lack of quality depth (low payroll) has reared his ugly head since we hit a ceiling of 15 games above .500 earlier this season.

How do we overcome the injuries going forward?
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:38 pm

ironmike wrote:How many games have our regulars missed this year versus other teams in our division? Is it just one of the things or are players fatiqued? Fatique can cause injuries. Our lack of quality depth (low payroll) has reared his ugly head since we hit a ceiling of 15 games above .500 earlier this season.

How do we overcome the injuries going forward?


How do we overcome injuries? Not many teams can.....just look at the Twins (and their payroll is over double the Tribe's).
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:51 pm

ironmike wrote:How many games have our regulars missed this year versus other teams in our division? Is it just one of the things or are players fatiqued? Fatique can cause injuries. Our lack of quality depth (low payroll) has reared his ugly head since we hit a ceiling of 15 games above .500 earlier this season.

How do we overcome the injuries going forward?
The Indians injury issues don't seem to be any better or worse than what other teams in the division have experienced. If there is any one area that has been more pronounced than any other team in the division, it's the heart of the order getting injured.

Example #1: The Tigers have had Peralta, Cabrera and Boesch for vitually the entire season.. their problems have been in the bullpen (less Valverde) and in the starting rotation (less Verlander).

Example #2: The Royals have had Billy Butler, Alex Gordon and Jeff Francoeur the entire season.. they've added Hosmer & Moustakas, while Melky has had a career year. The Royals SP'ing staff has been deplorable..their pen isn't much better.

Example # 3: The CWSox have had Konerko, Pierzynski and Quentin all season (up until about ten days ago). They've also had Adam Dunn who may be considered the BIGGEST FA SIGNING BUST OF ALL TIME. Boo hoo for the CWSox..

Example #4: The Twins have had issues with the heart of their order.. both Mauer and Morneau along with Kubel and Thome have spent significant time on the DL..

So, the overall injury-lost time issue hasn't been really all that crazy/out of whack within the division. What has been crazy is the loss of the 'heart of the order' for the Indians.. Without run producers and veterans, the Indians struggled. Just recall back to the first 45 games.. Choo played every day and batted in the third spot. Pronk was there five or six days a week and Grady played after a couple weeks in the minors to finish his left knee rehabilitation. When all these guys are there, this is a pretty good hitting team.. When they weren't there, then young guys like Santana and LaPorta and Shelly Duncan were placed in a spot to 'pick up the slack'.. A lot to ask for, imho...
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:55 pm

ironmike wrote:How do we overcome the injuries going forward?
You over come injuries by having ready and able replacements at the AAA and AA level good to go.. Do the NASA thing..have back ups to back ups to back ups.

As this year has been considered a "year ahead of schedule" for competing, the kids that were supposed to be coming up to learn their craft have had to do learn while under the duress of a pennant race.. Some may consider that to be a blessing..others will point out that it is due to this high pressure situation that the team has failed.. As an optimist, the former may be more truthful than the latter....we shall see...
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby entertheshoe » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:14 pm

Anyone surprised that Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner have gotten injured doesn't know Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner all that well.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:40 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Anyone surprised that Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner have gotten injured doesn't know Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner all that well.

It's not a question of being surprised or not. It's part of the game that you hope doesn't come to pass...
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby Edible14 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:01 pm

I think an awful lot of blame for this season could be assigned to what's happened with Shin-Soo Choo. That guy is supposed to be our legit #3 hitter, putting up around a .300 batting average with some pop. He's been either injured or underperforming all season. The loss of his contribution has been devastating.

Anything that we got from Grady and Pronk this year was a bonus in my eyes. The guys who we were relying on to produce offensively were Acab, Santana, Choo and Brantley. Choo is the only one out of those 4 who has let the team down in that respect. Not saying that it's his fault, but his absence has been noticeable.

The nice thing about having a team this young is that there's a lot of optimism to be had about guys improving. Santana can hopefully be more consistent next year (ditto Brantley). Kipnis, over a full year, will be a big boost at 2B. Hopefully Chis can get major league pitching sorted out.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby daingean » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:15 am

Baseball is a grind with 162 games which in some ways is more taxing than other sports because of the game after game schedule. The weakest muscles/bones/tendons get exposed. Every team encounters injuries. Certainly some freak injuries like Choo's broken wrist are out of the norm but guys like Sizemore and Hafner seem to breakdown every year. Some guys can go day after day and some need a break. Certainly better core muscle training can prevent some injuries and of course better nutrition/supplements. Teams should always be exploring ways to improve in these areas (within the rules). FWIW, back in the '90s the Indians were one of the first team to really start using the bands in their exercises and now they are widely used in all levels of baseball for instance my step-son uses band work in his warm-up routine before he plays (he's a JR. in High School).
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:10 am

Josh Tomlin mysteriously injured. If it is another oblique, then something is certainly up and needs to be addressed.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:07 am

TonyIPI wrote:Josh Tomlin mysteriously injured. If it is another oblique, then something is certainly up and needs to be addressed.


I've seen a lot of baseball. But I had never even heard of the oblique muscle until a few years ago. Maybe someday people will have "CC surgery" to cure it.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby indians1 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:05 pm

I really think the FO and ownership has to look at the medical staff/strength and conditioning and start looking long and hard at how they are preparing the players for the season. They need to look at this area like they did the draft a few years back when they gave the gig to brad grant.

With Choo, kipnis, now tomlin, grady, hafner, alex white (whose injury triggered the jimenez trade), then you look in the minors- hector rondon, alexander perez, kelvin de la cruz, jason knapp adam miller, michael aubrey ( and i'm sure i am missing a few), but the list goes on.

We as a small market team can't afford to have this many injuries to our top end prospects/players. I know there are injuries that you can't prevent, but it seems like the indians have an exorbitant amount of injuries that are killers to this franchise. (the injuries are dismantling any chances this year of making the playoffs)

Last year-or in the last few years- hafner, grady, carmona, westbrook- all had injuries after getting big contracts. Why should the dolans commit any long term money to a player when no player (other than victor martinez and CC showed they could stay healthy or effective for an extended period of time. Guys either can't stay healthy or they can't perform for an extended period of time.

That is the difference between the 90's teams and now. Back then, you could count on jim thome, manny, albert, kenny lofton to play at an all-star level. the milwaukee brewers are what the indians were in the 90's. They are not spending ridiculous amounts of money on free agents to win. they are developing their own- they are playing at elite levels- and they are staying healthy for the most part.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby daingean » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:44 pm

Minor League pitchers break down. Every team faces those. Unless there is a supplement which strengthens the tendon, TJ surgeries will happen. Our elbows just were not made to handle the stress of pitching.

Now the Knapp thing was poor due-diligence on the Phillies part (he was injured when we acquired him). They said it was bicep tendonitis but it ended up being a shoulder issue. I don't care how minor they said the procedure was (to clean out loose bodies) shoulder surgeries are always a concern.

Now at the ML level, Choo's broken wrist was a freak injury but it happens. Other guys start to breakdown with the stress of a long season. Sure the oblique/hamstring/quad strain type issues can be minimized with better conditioning/supplements. There are even supplements which help with joint issues. Yes the Tribe should look towards improving these areas. That and proper off season rest especially for pitchers.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby indians1 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:50 pm

Not every elbow issue can be controlled, but from a mechanical standpoint, the indians need to do a better job of predicting who is at risk for injuries.

As far as choo-i wasn't talking about the wrist problem-that was a fluke (he got hit on the wrist). the oblique injury, the tommy john surgery for an outfielder. Choo is not the main issue here. My main concern is the inability to keep guys healthy or effective when we dished out big money.

Hafner is a guy that is a mess physically. With all the money and technology/advances in the body, how is it that the indians staff can't figure out why travis hafner is broken. Grady is broken. Carmona hasn't been right since 2007. In 2008- he had the hip issue and has been a mess mechanically since.

The staff said alex white's finger was a flukish thing and they said they didn't think they could prevent it from happening again. What separates normal training staffs and ones that don't work with professional sports should be that the professional sports trainers' job is to keep guys healthy and prevent injury.

If you don't think there is a difference between medical staffs, just look at the phoenix suns. Grant hill couldn't stay on the court because of injury after injury. He goes to phoenix and has not missed any substantial time, if at all. Shaq had his best season in his last 4 or 5 years when he was the suns.

I am not saying the job is easy but something does need to change. another example is the mess nick weglarz is. The guy gets hurt usually with no contact, but with things like stepping on the base wrong and tearing his meniscus.
Weglarz was supposed to be our big power hitter in our system and the guy is another busted pick.

All i am saying is that this organization can't afford to lose this many key guys to repeated injuries. We can't just pin this on bad luck.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby ironmike » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:04 am

Indians1 you make some very good points.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:16 am

The oblique injuries are generally related to poor core training. Stretching and exercise helps strengthen the abs and oblique muscles.

The Knapp injury was originally diagnosed as bicep tendinitis. Those tendons lead into the shldr and a shldr injury / bicep injury can feel or show as a bicep injury. Usually a diagnosis is not assume the worse hope for the best... It is as it appears to be. With the fraying in the labrum there is usually clicking or popping within the shldr, Knapp may not have experienced that sensation. Initially the Tribe only indicated Knapp only had loose bodies removed which actually could have caused the fraying. Re-tightening and anchoring the labrum in quite frequent. The surprise in this injury was that the Tribe did not indicate it was labrum surgery. It was originally reported as a scope procedure to clean out the loose bodies. Loose bodies indicate chipping or bone spurs. It could simply be the force Knapp puts into throwing which can limit him going forward the best move would be to see him as a closer / bullpen arm. It could also simply be his shldr was tight, which is not uncommon many ppl and athletes have tight joints that require a scope procedure to clean out. I'm not trying to make light of Knapps injury, instead explain. I think with proper mechanics, solid stretching and strengthening and a watchful eye this could be behind Knapp. Knapp is still a high ceiling arm with FOR ability but could be limited physically to being a lights out closer type. Knapp has youth and a solid frame / build on his side along with a professional approach to his recovery.

It's up to players what medical reports can be released and often rumor leaks the info. The Tribe was not forthcoming about the White injury either... It was reported as a strain, but the Rockies indicated it was actually a tear in the pulley tendon. After having experienced the Adam Miller saga there is not wonder why the Tribe would be willing to part with White. As much as I like White there's the possibility he re-injures it, or he simply remains healthy.

The Josh Tomlin injury was reportedly his elbow. These elbow sprains (Carrasco times 3? and Tomlin) can lead to further damage and potentially TJ surgery. Stretching and strengthening would help but the Tribe is going to have to keep an eye on these arms going forward. It's disappointing seeing the sheer number of injuries that have occurred but it's also part of the game.
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Re: What is The Reason For All the Injuries?

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:33 pm

indians1 wrote:If you don't think there is a difference between medical staffs, just look at the phoenix suns. Grant hill couldn't stay on the court because of injury after injury. He goes to phoenix and has not missed any substantial time, if at all. Shaq had his best season in his last 4 or 5 years when he was the suns.


The Phoenix Suns are a rare example of a team which supports your claim but it's debatable whether it's just mere coincidence or if it's because Phoenix's medical staff is the reason why. If I recall, Grant Hill was rehabbing his knees while as a free agent. It's not like as a free agent he was working with the Phoenix medical staff. Sure, after signing him they may have done a nice job with his knees or maybe after having bad knees for his entire career he didn't work them as hard. Or maybe it was age.

Shaq had a nice season but who's to say that him being healthy isn't just luck? And who's to say that he didn't play so well because of Steve Nash?

NBA is a completely different animal from baseball. There's so few people on the roster that a claim like "the Phoenix Suns have a good medical staff because look how few injuries they have" could on the outside look like it is true but how do we know that it's not just coincidence.
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