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The Trades that Built this Team

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The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:35 am

The trades that built this team are a testimony IMO to Shapiro.

1. CC - gave us LaPorta and Brantley - and perhaps someday Bryson. CC was leaving. While no one is a CC - we have players who are key to this team with upside.

2. Lee - gave us Marson, Donald, Carrasco - and perhaps someday Knapp. By 2011 Lee was leaving. While no one here is a Lee - we have players who are part of this team with upside. While Carrasco is on the DL - there was a period of time this year when he held the whole gig together.

3. VMart - gave us Masterson and perhaps Hagadone. Value for value - but where would we be without Masterson.

4. Blake - gave us Santana.

5. Guit - got us Joe Smith - a great trade?

6. DeRosa - got us Chris Perez - highway robbery.

7. Two bag of balls for ACab and Choo - the greatest steals in baseball history - well there was the Babe Ruth trade.

8. Minor leaguers for Fukadoma - we need Fukadoma desperately this year. (Antonetti)

9. Pomerz and White for Ubaldo - now - the jury is out on this one. (Antonetti)

All and all - this is a great story that has at least two more years to run.

Bob
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:24 am

Man, you read my mind....was writing almost this exact same thing for my notebook this Sunday!
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:39 am

Tony, As I have watched this team this week I am becoming a real believer. I honestly thought they were going to crack - but I was wrong.

Then there is Jack Hanahan. On a better hitting team he would play every day and bat ninth. The guy is amazing. If we are going to play close games - he has to play. Chis may have to wait a bit.

I cannot wait to read your article on the topic.

Lord - I love baseball!

Bob
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:40 am

You can add the Hafner, Sizemore, and Carrera trades too. #1 and 2 were clear misses but just pretend that the players they got from #3-7 were in those deals and it starts to make sense.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:46 am

Carrera was another good one - a bag of balls - and then perhaps McAllister. Terry Pluto should add a revision to his book "Dealing".

Bob
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:03 am

The trades for Choo, ACab, McCallister, Barnes, and Carrera impress me the most. They managed to get real value for very little. The bigger trades cost the Indians a premium or good player like CC, Lee, and even Blake making them atypical to me. Overall it is my opinion that Shapiro and Antionetto have done extremely well on the trade front. The free agent signings are another story though.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:30 am

When you look back on trades, one of the things that has to be asked: Would you make the same trade today knowing what you know now?.

For Asdrubal Cabrera, June of 2006 marks Droobs arrival to the Cleveland system. Eduardo Perez, son of Big Red Machine 1B, Tony Perez, was 'given' up for the slick fielding Venezuelan. Oh, how much would the M's would love to have never made this trade.. and oooh how much is Mark Shapiro greatful to the M's for being unable to see the level of talent Droobs possesses.

For Shin-soo Choo: July of 2006 marks Choo's arrival to the Cleveland system. Ben Broussard has a fine touch on his guitar, but, not much in the way of baseball skills. A huge win for the Indians.. and a trade M's fans, to this day, believe led to the ousting of Peter Bavasi.. the Droobs trade didn't help, either..

For OF/1B Matt LaPorta, LHP Zach Jackson, RHP Rob Bryson and OF/1B Michael Brantley, CC Sabathia, who was offered & rejected four year $ 72 MM deal earlier that spring, was sent to the Brewers. While Z-Jax is long gone, both LaPorta and Brantley are starting players & solid contributors to this team. Rob Bryson has a very good chance of being part of the next stages of the bullpen mafia. The Brewers got CC for a stretch run that allowed them to gain a spot in the playoffs. They filled their stands and the folks in Suds City went berzerk over their playoff run. Alas, it was an NLDS appearance and exit. In their hearts, the Brewers would want to make the same trade again, but, their brains would say, nah, not worth it. The Indians, who weren't going anywhere as far as the playoffs were concerned, would make the same trade again. They'd prefer a more impactful group of players, but, for a three month rental, they did as well as they could.

For Carlos Santana (and Jon Meloan), the Indians sent Casey Blake and most of his remaining salary to the Dodgers in late July of 2008. While Meloan is long gone from the Indians system, both Casey Blake and Carlos Santana are contributing members of their respective teams. The Dodgers would never make this trade again.. the Indians are no longer permitted to make trades with the Dodgers after this fleecing.

For RHP Joe Smith and INF Luis Valbuena the Indians sent OF Franklin Gutierrez in a complex three team trade involving the Mets and Mariners. This is a trade that the M's would certainly make again. The Mets would never make this deal and the Indians would be on the fence. While Joe Smith has become a member in good standing with the Bullpen Mafia, giving up Gut was a high price to pay. Call this one a two team winner: Indians and M's, and one team loser..

For Chris Perez the Indians trades Mark DeRosa in late June of 2009. Shortly afterwards, Mark DeRosa began a list of injuries that has plagued his career. Chris Perez has become one of the AL's better closers. A no brainer

For Jason Donald, Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco and Jason Knapp, the Indians traded away Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco in late July of 2009. A huge trade that has yet to be fully realized. To this day, including Ben Francisco in this deal stinks. The Phillies were able to hold onto Lee through the end of the 2009 season and eventually resign Lee after a year being traded to the M's (and eventually to the Rangers), but have kept Ben thoughout. The additions for the Indians may be considered fundamental parts of today's Indians, however, the prize in the bottom of this Cracker Jack Trade(box), Jason Knapp, has yet to impact the results. Perhaps he never will.. perhaps he is going to make this trade a blow out, no doubt about it, winnah winnah, chicken dinnah for the Indians. There is no doubt both teams would make this trade again..The Indians would be slightly less inclined to include Ben F, imho.

For Ezequiel Carrera (and Juan Diaz) the Indians sent Russell Branyan to the M's. You'd think the M's would have calls from the Indians blocked by now.. another no brainer and fleecing of the M's.

For Kosuke Fukudome the Indians sent Abner Abreu and RHP Carlton Smith to the Cubs. While the jury on this one is clearly still out w/r to the Cubs return, Fukudome has been a solid contributor to the Indians efforts in the three plus weeks he's been here. The Indians would certainly make this trade again and again..

For Ubaldo Jimenez, the Indians traded Drew Pomeranz and Alex White, minor league pitchers. The jury on this one is still out. Ubaldo has made three starts for the Indians, one good, one poor and one mediocre.

This makes ten trades, seven of which would be done without hesitation. Three, given the circumstances at the time, would probably be altered, but still made..

Not a bad list, imho...
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:49 am

For Ezequiel Carrera (and Juan Diaz) the Indians sent Russell Branyan to the M's. You'd think the M's would have calls from the Indians blocked by now.. another no brainer and fleecing of the M's.


This one made me laugh! We used to be a farm team for the Yankees. The Mariners are now a farm team from the Indians.

Great analysis!
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:50 am

The other side of the coin is that except for the Brandon Phillips deal you can't find a really bad trade the Indians made - certainly nothing along the lines of giving up a Choo, ACab, Santana, Chris Perez or Hafner for the likes of Perez, Broussard, Blake, DeRosa and Drese.

Maybe Pomeranz, White or Abreu will make them regret those deals someday, but as of right now they've done extremely well. Even some of the minor deals like Garko for Barnes, Kearns for McAllister, and Branyan for Zeke Carerra are looking very good. The one that's looking very questionable at this point is the Peralta for Soto deal, especially given the Tribe's need for a right-handed bat and their lack of any offense whatsoever from either Hannahan or Chiz this year. I'm still hoping that Soto rescues that one. And to be fair, Jhonny's salary was getting to the point where it outpaced his production, and nobody could have predicted he would have a season like this.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:11 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The other side of the coin is that except for the Brandon Phillips deal you can't find a really bad trade the Indians made - certainly nothing along the lines of giving up a Choo, ACab, Santana, Chris Perez or Hafner for the likes of Perez, Broussard, Blake, DeRosa and Drese.


meh, there are a few more. Jerome Robertson? Realize Luke Scott isn't a star but that was a horrible trade. Willy Tavaras was also dealt (Rule 5 pick that we let Houston keep).

Ryan Church and Maicer Izturis for Scott Stewart. Church was abviously no Giles, but this was a terrible trade. Izturis is a solid utility guy as well.

Chris Archer and others for DeRosa. Betancourt for only Connor Graham (after seeing what teams can get for relievers, this hurt IMO).

Definitely more good trades than bad, but there were definitely some bad ones mixed in. No one is perfect though obviously.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:The other side of the coin is that except for the Brandon Phillips deal you can't find a really bad trade the Indians made - certainly nothing along the lines of giving up a Choo, ACab, Santana, Chris Perez or Hafner for the likes of Perez, Broussard, Blake, DeRosa and Drese.


meh, there are a few more. Jerome Robertson? Realize Luke Scott isn't a star but that was a horrible trade. Willy Tavaras was also dealt (Rule 5 pick that we let Houston keep).

Ryan Church and Maicer Izturis for Scott Stewart. Church was abviously no Giles, but this was a terrible trade. Izturis is a solid utility guy as well.

Chris Archer and others for DeRosa. Betancourt for only Connor Graham (after seeing what teams can get for relievers, this hurt IMO).

Definitely more good trades than bad, but there were definitely some bad ones mixed in. No one is perfect though obviously.

As the subject of the thread was how this team was built.. i.e.. guys that are on the Indians club now.. the Brandon Phillips trade was excluded as no one from the Phillips trader remains with the team's major league roster.. same thing for Ryan Church and Izturis and Archer.. and so on..

Now if the subject of the thread was all trades & where are they now.. then sure...they can and should be discussed..or the thread title changed.. :wink:
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby ironmike » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:44 pm

Keep in mind 5 of those trades were dictated by lack of money. It's not really difficult to trade super stars for other teams top prospects. Geronimo could do it if he had Keith Law's book handy. So annointing Shapiro the greatest GM of all time would be wrong. He's doing a great job now booking country acts and hockey games. The Winter Olympics didn't do to well, so he's struggled out of the gate as President of the Indians. Shapiro goofed far more times than he hit on players.

We saw the farm system and draft disengrate for years under Mirabelli. Shapiro released or traded 18 players who continued to contribute to their teams for players we had nothing to show for. And then there was Wedge, that's another post. No, better yet, I'm done posting about Wedge. Wedge's overall lack of success speaks for itself. Shapiro traded Wedge for Charlie Manuel, that wasn't good. He kept Mirabelli in place far to long. The baseball people at Sirius Radio stated many times Shapiro never deserved to stay as long as he did.

Regarding Sabathia, notice he is wearing his cap the proper way these days, but he still has a poor record against most contending teams. Believe he is 0-4 against Boston with a 7+ ERA. When he was here he also had a real poor record and high ERA against the Red Sox and Yankees. If I'm not mistaken he was 3-8 with a 7+ ERA. He has lots of run support in NY so his record is good. I would still start Westbrook or Lee in a game 7 to win it all. In big games against good team here he didn't pitch well. Some would call it choking. Westbrook proved more than once he could rise to occasion in the playoffs, Bird too. Lee, he is just a much better all around pitcher than Sabathia.

Antonetti has balls. I was skeptical when he came on board. Didn't feell he had the credentials. I like him,. He made a great trade for Jiminez. It took guts and was the right thing to do. He's a GM who values winning at the ML level above all other things. Lines up with my philosophy. Want better players? Fill the stands and we have the revenue to compete.

Can we get back to the Hart days when we had an All Star at every position? Probably not, but 4 or 5 would do.
Last edited by ironmike on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:49 pm

ironmike wrote:Keep in mind 5 of those trades were dictated by lack of money. It's not really difficult to trade super stars for other teams top prospects. Geronimo could do it if he had Keith Law's book handy.

Regarding Sabathia, notice he is wearing his cap the proper ways these days, but he still has a poor record against most contending teams. Believe he is 0-4 against Boston. When he was here he also had a real poor record and high ERA against the Red Sox and Yankees. He has lots of run support in NY, but I would have still started Westbrook or Lee in a game 7 to win it all. In big games against good team here he didn't pitch well. Some would call it choking.


hmm...what 5 trades were dictated by lack of money?

The Martinez and Lee trades ok.....but don't see a single other trade in there dictated by money.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:54 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:As the subject of the thread was how this team was built.. i.e.. guys that are on the Indians club now.. the Brandon Phillips trade was excluded as no one from the Phillips trader remains with the team's major league roster.. same thing for Ryan Church and Izturis and Archer.. and so on..

Now if the subject of the thread was all trades & where are they now.. then sure...they can and should be discussed..or the thread title changed.. :wink:


If we don't deal Phillips then Donald, Kipnis, Valbuena, etc aren't on the ML club or at least aren't starting for the ML club. The fact that certain players were dealt has a direct impact on how this club was built.

The first sentence of this thread talks about a testament to Shapiro. I've always been a Shapiro supporter and agree with that, but this team is contructed the way it is because of some failures as well. More successs for sure, but nevertheless some failures on the trade front.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:05 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:As the subject of the thread was how this team was built.. i.e.. guys that are on the Indians club now.. the Brandon Phillips trade was excluded as no one from the Phillips trader remains with the team's major league roster.. same thing for Ryan Church and Izturis and Archer.. and so on..

Now if the subject of the thread was all trades & where are they now.. then sure...they can and should be discussed..or the thread title changed.. :wink:


If we don't deal Phillips then Donald, Kipnis, Valbuena, etc aren't on the ML club or at least aren't starting for the ML club. The fact that certain players were dealt has a direct impact on how this club was built.

The first sentence of this thread talks about a testament to Shapiro. I've always been a Shapiro supporter and agree with that, but this team is contructed the way it is because of some failures as well. More successs for sure, but nevertheless some failures on the trade front.

Well, they're not here not..and what might have been..might have been..
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby petes999 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:40 pm

I was going to include the Phillips trade just because he became Stevens who with Archer became DeRosa who became Perez.... Still hated that trade as he showed he had turned the corner ... but oh well least it turned into something more than Stevens in the end.

But, also realize that if we still had Phillips on the team, we probably wouldn't have traded Kuz for Barfield nor Gut for Smith and Valbuena.

The question really is where would we have been if we had Phillips instead of Barfield in 2007 and how his bat could have helped in Boston series ... maybe not enough as it was pitching that killed us. You can play could have -- should have all you want (like if Miller didn't injure his finger that year), but it won't change anything. However, the meltdown with Boston didn't do the 2008 team any favors on creating a kick-ass mentality that lead to the trades that ensued.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:46 pm

Might consider adding OCab for Thomas Neal deal too.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:49 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Might consider adding OCab for Thomas Neal deal too.
We really don't know what to expect from Neal at the ML level at this point.. He has some skills that could benefit the team, but it's unknown if he'll impact the Indians for this season...a September call up may be in order?.. IDK..
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby ACrank » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:26 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
ironmike wrote:Keep in mind 5 of those trades were dictated by lack of money. It's not really difficult to trade super stars for other teams top prospects. Geronimo could do it if he had Keith Law's book handy.

Regarding Sabathia, notice he is wearing his cap the proper ways these days, but he still has a poor record against most contending teams. Believe he is 0-4 against Boston. When he was here he also had a real poor record and high ERA against the Red Sox and Yankees. He has lots of run support in NY, but I would have still started Westbrook or Lee in a game 7 to win it all. In big games against good team here he didn't pitch well. Some would call it choking.


hmm...what 5 trades were dictated by lack of money?

The Martinez and Lee trades ok.....but don't see a single other trade in there dictated by money.


You could say the CC trade was - but then if it were that easy there wouldn't be so much debate on the future of Matt LaPorta with the Indians or whether the Indians should have gambled on getting the two young pitchers in those deals who are having repeated injury issues.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:21 pm

We got beat up in the Betancourt trade and definitely the Peralta trade...Pavano a little but not enough to care about,.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:23 pm

When we traded Betancourt he was coming off a season where his ERA was 5.07. We were kind of selling low on him. Plus he was 33 or 34 years old.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:29 pm

criznit2009 wrote:We got beat up in the Betancourt trade and definitely the Peralta trade...Pavano a little but not enough to care about,.


Rafael Betancourt has shown consistent ability to pitch in games for the Rockies. He has been one of their best bullpen options for over a month this season ( I don't think he's given up an earn run for the last month or so) and has even been considered for the closer role for the Rox. The Rockies have to be thrilled with what they're getting from Raffy Right.

For Raffy Right, the Indians received Conor Graham.

I didn't notice Conor Graham's stats with the Indians. Is he pitching out of the bullpen?. starting?.. oh..no, he's not on the Indians active roster, so isn't a part of what built this team.

Jhonny Peralta is having a MONSTER year for the Tigers. Perhaps his best year ever. He is playing his usual adequate defense at SS.. making all the plays on balls he can get to... and has had a productive major league campaign, offensively. He was selected for the all star team as one of the best SS's in the AL. Good for Jhonny P !

For Jhonny Peralta, the Indians received Giovanni Soto.

I didn't notice Giovanni Soto 's stats with the Indians. Is he pitching out of the bullpen?. starting?.. Oh.. no, he's not on the Indians active roster, so isn't part of what built this team.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:42 pm

*shrug*

If the Indians were interested in picking up Jhonny Peralta's 2011 option, they wouldn't have traded him. So he wasn't going to be putting up this year's numbers in Cleveland either way. They received a half-decent pitching prospect in exchange for the 57 games he played for Detroit last year.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby petes999 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:46 pm

criznit2009 wrote:We got beat up in the Betancourt trade and definitely the Peralta trade...Pavano a little but not enough to care about,.


Remember the Pavano trade was really about cost savings of a few million as he was just starting to earn $100,000 to $200,000 in incentives per start, as he had potential incentives up to $5 million. So, we got someone in Pino that was AAAA quality at best but saved a few million.

Because the trade happened on August 9th, it seemed to be too late in Indians 2009 draft plans to really go out and sign a flyer with the savings ... yet theoretically the money would have gone into 2010 signees ... as savings in trades supposedly breaks the boundry between MLB expenses and Draft/Dominican expeneses. Where a CC salary savings also got us some more money to spend on Stowell and Federoff and others in 2008.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:57 pm

Says something about his decade as a GM that the team having the 13th best record in MLB and being 4 games over 500 is being celebrated so much
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:16 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:*shrug*

If the Indians were interested in picking up Jhonny Peralta's 2011 option, they wouldn't have traded him. So he wasn't going to be putting up this year's numbers in Cleveland either way. They received a half-decent pitching prospect in exchange for the 57 games he played for Detroit last year.


I know we've been told the Indians weren't going to offer arbitration to Peralta, but still say that was the way to go. Would have had a sandwich pick in this year's draft (a deep draft at that). Most likely get a better player than Soto there. There was almost no chance of Peralta accpeting arby because A) as a solid SS (well to anyone outside of Cleveland) he would get more money/years, and B) arby isnt' guaranteed like some seem to think. As you put it though o well or *shrug* You win some and you lose some.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby BrianM » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:31 pm

I cant believe the Bartolo Colon trade has not been mentioned. Grady Sizemore is still on our roster and could be a major contributor come playoff time. Plus It's just fun mentioning that someone was stupid enough to deal Phillips, Lee, and Sizemore for 3 months of BFBC.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:20 pm

BrianM wrote:I cant believe the Bartolo Colon trade has not been mentioned. Grady Sizemore is still on our roster and could be a major contributor come playoff time. Plus It's just fun mentioning that someone was stupid enough to deal Phillips, Lee, and Sizemore for 3 months of BFBC.



Ironically enough, Colon is having a much better year then Grady IMO........
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:13 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:We got beat up in the Betancourt trade and definitely the Peralta trade...Pavano a little but not enough to care about,.


Rafael Betancourt has shown consistent ability to pitch in games for the Rockies. He has been one of their best bullpen options for over a month this season ( I don't think he's given up an earn run for the last month or so) and has even been considered for the closer role for the Rox. The Rockies have to be thrilled with what they're getting from Raffy Right.

For Raffy Right, the Indians received Conor Graham.

I didn't notice Conor Graham's stats with the Indians. Is he pitching out of the bullpen?. starting?.. oh..no, he's not on the Indians active roster, so isn't a part of what built this team.

Jhonny Peralta is having a MONSTER year for the Tigers. Perhaps his best year ever. He is playing his usual adequate defense at SS.. making all the plays on balls he can get to... and has had a productive major league campaign, offensively. He was selected for the all star team as one of the best SS's in the AL. Good for Jhonny P !

For Jhonny Peralta, the Indians received Giovanni Soto.

I didn't notice Giovanni Soto 's stats with the Indians. Is he pitching out of the bullpen?. starting?.. Oh.. no, he's not on the Indians active roster, so isn't part of what built this team.


If Betancourt wasn't 33 years old and coming off a 5.07 ERA season and had a ton of appearances over the last few years, we would have got more than Connor Graham for him. I'm glad he was able to return to being a productive pitcher and squeeze a few more years out of his career, but that was his trade value at the time. The bullpen is not a problem with this year's Indians team and we're top heavy with quality BP prospects hammering at the door. I wouldn't say we got "beat up" on that deal.

Peralta falls into the same category as CC, Lee, and Victor. We weren't going to pay him what he was worth on the open market so we got the best prospect we could for him while saving millions of dollars which were invested in the draft. Last year the Tribe set a team record for money spent on draft picks. This year they went well over slot on their top two guys.

Peralta is having the best season of his career, which makes the trade look bad, but I was happy with it at the time and still am.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:29 am

BrianM wrote:I cant believe the Bartolo Colon trade has not been mentioned. Grady Sizemore is still on our roster and could be a major contributor come playoff time. Plus It's just fun mentioning that someone was stupid enough to deal Phillips, Lee, and Sizemore for 3 months of BFBC.


Yes, you are right, that is,.. the Bartolo Colon trade still has Grady Sizemore as part of the current roster, albeit on the DL recovering from a deep knee bruise & sports hernia surgery and one of the trades that built this team.. Grady has progressed to some baseball activity, long toss, light hitting off a tee, and actually running on ground. He is close to the schedule of being back with the club during the first part of September. If he is healthy (not a high likelihood), he can contribute as witnessed by his pre- May 10th numbers (when he injured his other / non-surgically repaired knee).
It could be a HUGE boost to the Indians chances if Grady can have a September to remember!..
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:36 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Might consider adding OCab for Thomas Neal deal too.
We really don't know what to expect from Neal at the ML level at this point.


Well we don't know what to expect from Scotty Barnes either, but nobody seems to have any problem mentioning the Garko deal.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:23 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Might consider adding OCab for Thomas Neal deal too.
We really don't know what to expect from Neal at the ML level at this point.


Well we don't know what to expect from Scotty Barnes either, but nobody seems to have any problem mentioning the Garko deal.
Neither Barnes nor Garko are on the current roster.. so they don't need to be mentioned in a thread that is describing how the current club was built.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:30 pm

There was one other trade that was made.. long ago.. that has become a significant part of how this Indians club was built: First baseman Travis Hafner and righthander Aaron Myette traded to Cleveland for catcher Einar Diaz and righthander Ryan Drese. While Einar actually contributed some at the MLB level, Drese shuffled around to a few other teams before eventually succumbing to the fact..he didn't have the talent to be a major league pitcher. While Aaron Myette was included in the trade.. few Tribe fans remember much about him, only that he had a big arm and couldn't find home plate with a map and a guide dog. Travis Hafner was the jewel of the trade. His initial forray and early part of his career, through the 2007 season earned him such accolades as THE PRONK ! and having a section at Progressive Field called PRONKVILLE. Travis was a fearsome hitter and had an excellent eye at the plate. At times this season, that guy has shown up.. but over the last three, he hasn't. For 2011, he is having a very good season. He is the key, the lynch pin, the straw that stirs the drink for this offense to go. When PRONK is hitting the ball with mean intentions, the offense clicks. In order for the the Indians to truly make a run at the AL Central title, PRONK will have to be PRONK !!
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:33 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Travis was a fearsome hitter and had an excellent eye at the plate. At times this season, that guy has shown up.. but over the last three, he hasn't. For 2011, he is having a very good season. He is the key, the lynch pin, the straw that stirs the drink for this offense to go. When PRONK is hitting the ball with mean intentions, the offense clicks. In order for the the Indians to truly make a run at the AL Central title, PRONK will have to be PRONK !!


Pronk hasn't really been PRONK since 2006.

2009 .272/.825 OPS, 16 HR, 49 RBI
2010 .278/.823 OPS, 13 HR, 50 RBI
2011 .284/.818 OPS, 15 HR, 64 RBI (projected)

Based on those numbers I wouldn't describe his as the "linchpin" or the "key" or the "straw that stirs the drink". He's a fairly productive middle-of-the-order bat, but he's no Miquel Cabrera or Paul Konerko. He's just another decent bat that fits in with Brantley, Choo, Asdrubal, Santana, and hopefully Kipnis when he gets back. He's no longer a "fearsome" hitter, not with three straight seasons of 13-16 HRs. He's more of a complementary player at this point in his career, not a linchpin by any means.

Maybe he could be described that way earlier in the season when his average was around .340, but since having to sit out nine straight games except for pinch hitting when we went on the road against NL teams, his average and power have steadily declined. The good news is I don't think we need him to be PRONK to win the Central. We have enough starting pitching, a very good bullpen, and a decent offense, even when Hafner is a .284 singles hitter.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:34 pm

In order for the the Indians to truly make a run at the AL Central title, PRONK will have to be PRONK !!

Pronk needs to quit arguing with the umpires and see ball - hit ball.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:23 pm

What's the most important trade in the past several yrs?

Asdrubal Cabrera would get my vote. He's an MVP candidate but I think Justin Masterson should be mentioned too, as Masterson has pitched like a true ace. Prior to the trade with the Red Sox I suggested on another board that the Tribe had to get Masterson in a VMart trade. I absolutely got ripped for it at the time, think I also suggested Lars Anderson and Michael Bowden both haven't done anything yet... but I'd have to think the Red Sox hate trading him now.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:38 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:What's the most important trade in the past several yrs?

Asdrubal Cabrera would get my vote. He's an MVP candidate but I think Justin Masterson should be mentioned too, as Masterson has pitched like a true ace. Prior to the trade with the Red Sox I suggested on another board that the Tribe had to get Masterson in a VMart trade. I absolutely got ripped for it at the time, think I also suggested Lars Anderson and Michael Bowden both haven't done anything yet... but I'd have to think the Red Sox hate trading him now.


I've loved the deal for Masterson since day one. A big kid with a sinker in the mid-90's with extreme movement in exchange for an aging (now) ex-catcher that happened to be a fan favorite in Cleveland. Maybe not the most popular move Cleveland has done, but no one is complaining now, and if they are, they need to have a Psych eval.

I'd also mention the Acab deal, plus the deal for Shin-Soo Choo. Everyone knows when Choo is on, he's as solid as they come in RF. Unfortunately, this year is not his year.

The Colon deal gave us Cliff Lee, so by extension he also gave us Jason Donald, Sweet Lou Marson, Carlos Carrasco, and the perpetually injured Jason Knapp. Not a terrible deal, as Carrasco has #2 SP upside, and Knapp can be an Ace if they ever fix his body, and Lou Marson is an excellent catcher who can't hit, and Donald is a future utility guy.
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:50 pm

I cant believe the Bartolo Colon trade has not been mentioned. Grady Sizemore is still on our roster and could be a major contributor come playoff time. Plus It's just fun mentioning that someone was stupid enough to deal Phillips, Lee, and Sizemore for 3 months of BFBC.


There was one other trade that was made.. long ago.. that has become a significant part of how this Indians club was built: First baseman Travis Hafner and righthander Aaron Myette traded to Cleveland for catcher Einar Diaz and righthander Ryan Drese. While Einar actually contributed some at the MLB level, Drese shuffled around to a few other teams before eventually succumbing to the fact..he didn't have the talent to be a major league pitcher. While Aaron Myette was included in the trade.. few Tribe fans remember much about him, only that he had a big arm and couldn't find home plate with a map and a guide dog. Travis Hafner was the jewel of the trade. His initial forray and early part of his career, through the 2007 season earned him such accolades as THE PRONK ! and having a section at Progressive Field called PRONKVILLE. Travis was a fearsome hitter and had an excellent eye at the plate. At times this season, that guy has shown up.. but over the last three, he hasn't. For 2011, he is having a very good season. He is the key, the lynch pin, the straw that stirs the drink for this offense to go. When PRONK is hitting the ball with mean intentions, the offense clicks. In order for the the Indians to truly make a run at the AL Central title, PRONK will have to be PRONK !!


....I mentioned both of these trades in the 4th comment in this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5kgnelyei8
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Re: The Trades that Built this Team

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:51 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
I cant believe the Bartolo Colon trade has not been mentioned. Grady Sizemore is still on our roster and could be a major contributor come playoff time. Plus It's just fun mentioning that someone was stupid enough to deal Phillips, Lee, and Sizemore for 3 months of BFBC.


There was one other trade that was made.. long ago.. that has become a significant part of how this Indians club was built: First baseman Travis Hafner and righthander Aaron Myette traded to Cleveland for catcher Einar Diaz and righthander Ryan Drese. While Einar actually contributed some at the MLB level, Drese shuffled around to a few other teams before eventually succumbing to the fact..he didn't have the talent to be a major league pitcher. While Aaron Myette was included in the trade.. few Tribe fans remember much about him, only that he had a big arm and couldn't find home plate with a map and a guide dog. Travis Hafner was the jewel of the trade. His initial forray and early part of his career, through the 2007 season earned him such accolades as THE PRONK ! and having a section at Progressive Field called PRONKVILLE. Travis was a fearsome hitter and had an excellent eye at the plate. At times this season, that guy has shown up.. but over the last three, he hasn't. For 2011, he is having a very good season. He is the key, the lynch pin, the straw that stirs the drink for this offense to go. When PRONK is hitting the ball with mean intentions, the offense clicks. In order for the the Indians to truly make a run at the AL Central title, PRONK will have to be PRONK !!


....I mentioned both of these trades in the 4th comment in this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5kgnelyei8
Yes you did.. thank you for telling us you told us... :rolleyes:
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