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Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

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Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:23 am

Entering the "Battle of Ohio"...

Indians: 42-37, 2nd place in AL Central with a 1/2 game deficit. 18-23 on the road. 4-6 in last 10.
Reds: 42-40, tied 3rd place in NL Central, 2 games behind the Brewers & Cardinals. 22-19 at home. 5-5 in last 10.
After getting tremendous starting pitching at AT & T in San Francisco while losing three straight, the Indians were able to get a series win against the Arizona Diamond Backs with excellent pitching and timely hitting. The bullpen gave up the second game of the series, the first bad outing by the Bullpen Mafia in quite some time. The Reds continue to flounder in inter-league play despite a series win against the Tampa Bay Rays. Overall, the Indians are 9-6 in IL play while the Reds are 5-10. The Reds need a sweep to keep from surrendering the Ohio Cup in 2011.

Friday, 7:10 ET
Justin Masterson, RHP (5-6, 2.98) vs. Bronson Arroyo, RHP (7-6, 5.01)

Masterson has pitched extremely well in hard luck over his last 8 starts. He's the one pitcher in the Indians rotation that has a legitimate claim for "lack of support". The big right hander continues to improve his pitch selection and reduce his walks giving his team a chance to win in every outing. The Indians will be able to get their left handed heavy lineup in the first game with Bronson Arroyo on the hill with the pill. Arroyo has been prone to giving up the long ball. He's surrendered 20 of them so far this season. The crafty righty has also become quite a ground ball machine, allowing his defense to pick him up with many double plays.

Saturday, 4:10 ET Fox Game of the Week
Fausto Carmona, RHP (4-10, 5.89) vs. Homer Bailey, RHP (3-2, 3.86)

Fausto's last outing may have given a hint to him turning the corner on this season. While he's struggled to maintain his composure and focus, the nastiness of his pitches hasn't wavered. Fausto's most important start of the season will be in this game. If he can show he's able to 'hold it together', the boo-birds and naysayers will give him some slack (while not entirely trusting him as the Indians staff ace) as the Indians head into the second half of the season. Bailey's improvement from the first round of the "Battle of Ohio has evaporated. He is 0-2 in his last two decisions (including a 2-1 loss to the Indians) and has overcome a trip to the DL. In his only start since being on the DL, a 9-5 loss to the Orioles, he surrendered 5 runs including two homers in a five inning outing. Bailey is a struggling pitcher that needs a good outing to maintain his spot in the Reds rotation.

Sunday, 1:10 ET
Mitch Talbot, RHP (2-4 4.89) vs. Mike Leake, RHP (7-4, 3.89)

Unleashing the fury that is Mitch Talbot hasn't been an easy task. Talbot has battled his way through his last five starts with no wins to show for it. His last outing, a no decision against the DBax was a five inning affair (he was pulled for a pinch hitter early as Manny decided to use his bullet, PRONK, early rather than late). Talbot has pitched into and around trouble in each of his last five starts. His early game results have been his achilles heal, giving up runs early thereby digging a hole the Indians offense hasn't been able to overcome.Mike Leake has truly turned the corner on his season. His last outing, a four hit gem against the Tampa Rays resulted in a W. The best part about Leake's starts this season has been his consistency in getting late into the game. In his last 7 consecutive outings, Leake has gone at least six innings while surrendering only 8 walks over 47 IP. This says he doesn't beat himself by giving up bases. The Indians will have to 'earn' their spots on the bases if they intend to score on him.

NOTES:
• The Reds offense is lead by the quartet of Gomes, Stubbs Bruce and Votto who have combined to hit 51 Home Runs this season.
• Cincinnati, overall, is 8-2 against the Indians at Great American Ballpark.
• With two RHP's going for the Reds in the first two games, the Reds and the rest of the baseball world will get their first look at Indians phenom, Lonnie Chisenhall.
• Both the Indians and Reds will miss the other teams new found aces as the Reds will miss Carlos Carrasco and the Indians will not have to face Johnny Cueto in the series.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby InsaneJedi » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:18 am

Nino Colla is reporting on Twitter that Chris Perez was put on the Bereavement list yesterday. Now the Columbus Dispatch speculation about Judy getting called up makes a little more sense. My condolences to the Perez family, whatever the situation.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:06 pm

I wasn't paying attention and posted a series preview after this was already up, so I'll just knock mine down to some additional notes...

PITCHING NOTES:
• The Indians have scored 22 runs in Justin Masterson's 11 game winless streak. They scored 33 times in his first five starts. He's still the hardest starting pitcher to homer against in the AL, and will match up against Bronson Arroyo, the easiest starter in the majors to take deep.
• If you're looking for small steps of progress from Fausto Carmona, next on the list is letting Javier Vazquez (5.83) take the title for worst ERA in baseball.
• Mitch Talbot is keeping the Indians in games, but only after he puts them behind. His 1st inning ERA is 12.00, but from innings 2-5, it's 3.06. Talbot was on the DL when these teams met earlier this season, but in his lone start against the Reds last year, he allowed just 1 run on 3 singles and 3 walks over 7 innings.
• This will be the first time the Indians have faced Mike Leake. He won't overpower hitters with a fastball that averages 88.5 mph, but it's a sinker that he locates well. He's made a rather drastic change this season, using his cutter 34% of the time, after it accounted for just 12% of his pitches last season. It's now supplanted his slider as his top breaking pitch. He'll also use a change-up and throw a few curve balls per game. Despite the recent streak of success, lefties can still give him trouble with a .290/.358/.441 line for the year.

POSITION NOTES:
• Over the last 4 games, Orlando Cabrera is batting .571 (8-for-14) with 3 doubles and a home run.
• Carlos Santana is going through a rough 3-for-25 stretch, which is still considerably better than Jack Hannahan's 2-for-27 streak. Hannahan is still having the 2nd best offensive season of his career.
• Shelley Duncan ended April with a line of .370/.393/.630 in 27 ab. Since then he's "hit" .143/.191/.238 in 63 ab, with 3 bb and 19 k.
• Matt LaPorta is still experiencing discomfort in his sprained ankle, so plans to have him join the team for baseball activities this weekend have been shelved. They hope to have him back on the active roster by the All-Star break.
• Brandon Phillips enters the series with 997 career hits. The first 89 came with the Indians. While Phillips is still enjoying arguably the best season of his career, he's homered just once in his last 28 games.
• Drew Stubbs leads MLB with 111 strikeouts, and was demoted from the lead-off spot last week. However, after going 0-for-9 immediately following his drop in the lineup, he's hit .286/.318/.524 in the past 5 games.
• Cincinnati has the top run-scoring offense in the NL and ranks 3rd in home runs, but are still awaiting their first 4-bagger from a shortstop this year.
• The Reds defense ranks 2nd in the NL in fielding percentage and 1st in defensive efficiency.

Scoreboard Watch:
Giants at Tigers

Fri. - Madison Bumgarner (4-9, 3.84) vs. Brad Penny (5-6, 4.46)
Sat. - Barry Zito (1-1, 4.95) vs. Max Scherzer (9-3, 4.47)
Sun. - Ryan Vogelsong (6-1, 2.09) vs. Rick Porcello (6-6, 5.06)
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby jellis » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:38 pm

InsaneJedi wrote:Nino Colla is reporting on Twitter that Chris Perez was put on the Bereavement list yesterday. Now the Columbus Dispatch speculation about Judy getting called up makes a little more sense. My condolences to the Perez family, whatever the situation.


From Perez on twitter I believe his grandmother passed yesterday, so I was expecting this to happen. Sad time for a guy whose birthday is today
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby ChadS17 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:20 pm

Perez is supposed to be back Sunday. Have to assume Pestano is the closer, no?
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:34 pm

ChadS17 wrote:Perez is supposed to be back Sunday. Have to assume Pestano is the closer, no?


Suppose Sipp could be (he did pitch the 9th a couple times), but I'm hoping it's Pestano.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:37 pm

ChadS17 wrote:Perez is supposed to be back Sunday. Have to assume Pestano is the closer, no?
I


I think he is the most likely option, but could see a tag team of him and Sipp based on who is at the plate. I imagine Acta will hold out as long as possible to put Sipp in.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:47 pm

Looks like OCab is getting the nod tonight versus Arroyo, a righty, instead of Cord. Makes sense because Orlando has been swinging a hot bat but I'd like to see Phelps sent back down to AAA if they continue to not play him.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:44 pm

OMG - a laugher!
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby smt1192 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:47 pm

Oh dear, Travis Buck pulled out of the game with a leg injury after hitting a single in the 5th.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 pm

smt1192 wrote:Oh dear, Travis Buck pulled out of the game with a leg injury after hitting a single in the 5th.


It doesn't look too serious, as the commentators said it is probably just precautionary. Freakin' figures that happens when he's 2-3 with a couple of really impressive at bats though.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:25 pm

Lonnie has a gun for an arm!
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:40 pm

Giants doing a melt down. Good - what looked like the winning hit turned into a double play end of game play!
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby smt1192 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:47 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Giants doing a melt down. Good - what looked like the winning hit turned into a double play end of game play!

Runner on second couldn't do much about that. Too bad we couldn't get to Wilson like the Tigers did.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:57 pm

I just want to thank Brandon Phillips for doing all the damage today. He really helped rock my fantasy team along with Sizemore and Santana. :biggrin:
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:15 am

With the highest scoring offense in the NL and the top defense I can't believe the Reds are only 42-40. But if Arroyo is starting for them I guess that gives you a clue as to their problem.

Also, Scott Rolen has no range whatsoever at 3rd base.

Huge start for Fausto today. He needs to get it together if we're to keep things interesting. And it was great to see Grady crush a couple of pitches yesterday. With Choo out until at least September he needs to step up.

The plan to use Phelps at second and play OCab against selected pitchers is working out very nicely so far.

The loss of LaPorta hasn't been a problem because Santana is playing pretty well and Marson has been a rock defensively. We lose a little offense against right-handed pitching, but Marson has been shutting down the running game.

Hopefully Buck will be back soon because he's the only one with a bat between him, Kearns, and Duncan.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:01 pm

Wow Fausto.....wow.....
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:06 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Wow Fausto.....wow.....


My stream froze up and I missed all of it.

What happened?
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:10 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Wow Fausto.....wow.....



Fausto fell down running to first - he did not even get to the bag to trip over it.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:14 pm

Man - I love Chisenhall's arm!
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:18 pm

With Fausto coming out, I hope we get a chance to see Josh Judy today.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:21 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Wow Fausto.....wow.....


My stream froze up and I missed all of it.

What happened?

As John Kruk once said, "I'm not an athlete. I'm a professional baseball player." Of course, Kruk wasn't a pitcher, so at least he knew how to run to first base without killing himself. Carmona basically jammed his leg a step before first base, launching himself into a flop over the bag without ever touching it.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:28 pm

Michael Brantley - what a player he is - and what a future.

I was looking at an old scouting report written on him after the 2008 season;

"Strengths & Opportunities: Brantley is just about everything you want out of a leadoff hitter. He is one of the best players in the minors at making consistent contact and bringing a solid plan to every at bat by being patient at the plate, making consistent contact, hitting for average, and getting on base. At just 21-years of age, his bat-to-ball ability is phenomenal and he has displayed an elite level approach at the plate striking out just 27 times in 420 at bats this past season ranking second in the entire minor leagues with a strikeout per plate appearance ratio of 17.7 (27 K in 479 PA). In his four year minor league career, Brantley has struck out just 142 times in 1633 total plate appearances (11.5 AB/K). While he has only drawn 199 walks in his career, he has an extraordinary ability to consistently put the bat on the ball. He also has plus speed to steal a base at anytime. Brantley's best comp may be as a Kenny Lofton type offensive player, a hitter who can steal 30-40 bases and can pound the gaps and hit the occasional home run and pile up 40-50 extra base hits in a season. "

Spot on. But I can't remember the name of the author. :wink:
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:42 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Michael Brantley - what a player he is - and what a future.

I was looking at an old scouting report written on him after the 2008 season;

"Strengths & Opportunities: Brantley is just about everything you want out of a leadoff hitter. He is one of the best players in the minors at making consistent contact and bringing a solid plan to every at bat by being patient at the plate, making consistent contact, hitting for average, and getting on base. At just 21-years of age, his bat-to-ball ability is phenomenal and he has displayed an elite level approach at the plate striking out just 27 times in 420 at bats this past season ranking second in the entire minor leagues with a strikeout per plate appearance ratio of 17.7 (27 K in 479 PA). In his four year minor league career, Brantley has struck out just 142 times in 1633 total plate appearances (11.5 AB/K). While he has only drawn 199 walks in his career, he has an extraordinary ability to consistently put the bat on the ball. He also has plus speed to steal a base at anytime. Brantley's best comp may be as a Kenny Lofton type offensive player, a hitter who can steal 30-40 bases and can pound the gaps and hit the occasional home run and pile up 40-50 extra base hits in a season. "

Spot on. But I can't remember the name of the author. :wink:


I agree with everything except for the first sentence. I don't know if Brantley is everything you want out of a leadoff hitter. To me at least, he seems like a prototype #2 hitter. Great at getting on base, occasional pop, always makes solid contact, doesn't waste an AB. He doesn't really have the burners that I prefer in a leadoff hitter, which is evident in his 9 sb 3 cs, 27th best in the AL. I like my leadoff hitters to be a threat to get a hit on a slow ground ball, steal bases, beat out double plays, and turn singles to doubles and doubles to triples. It's not a knock on Brantley, but I just don't see that in him. The base-stealing ability will improve but I don't think his speed will. It's just a matter of preference, not really a knock on Michael.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby hoof32 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:28 pm

Awesome performance!!

I love schooling the Reds!!

Yeow.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:29 pm

Wow.

Great job bullpen.

Hopefully Talbot brings his game tomorrow or else that's going to be one tired bullpen.

P.S. Detroit is already down 5-0 in the 1st inning versus SF
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:57 pm

The Indians did a terrific job today. Special kudos to the struggling Michael Brantley for picking the Indians up with a 3 run HR right after Fausto went down. Whether it was Acta or the baseball gods that had Brantley at leadoff rather than Sizemore is a tough one. But we can be thankful. Another special kudo to the game winner, Frank Herrmann, who hasn't gotten much love from me this year. It would be nice if I was wrong about his inability to have a 2nd pitch.

This team has been great with so much adversity and modest ML talent. They kept their heads up and continued to play their best. It is a real shame that this effort is not appreciated by the apathetic fan base in Cleveland who only show up for freebies or to root for the other team. When the Yankees come to visit, I rather suspect the majority of those in attendance will be cheering for the Bronx Bombers just like when Detroit, Cincy and Pittsburgh come to town. The organization, top to bottom, deserves the last kudo! :clapping:
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:29 pm

Nice win...who would have thunk we'd be going into the last road game of this stretch 4-4 after the Giants series....lots of QS by the SPs, 1 hiccup by the pen but reliable throughout (nice job by the Harvard dude today), hitting barely enough to be in games but without Choo and Hafner that was expected

Congrats to Pestano on his 1st ML save...he's no 1year wonder like Jensen Lewis or Tom Mastny...I love watching him pitch. Funny how a draft works...1st 2 picks in 2006 were Huff and Wright, a projected MOR and backend BP arm...both flopped (are trying comebacks, longhshots though)...in step 19th and 20th rounder Tomlin and Pestano to become what those top picks were projected to...goes to show that there's talent everywhere in a baseball draft. They've something special about them and they're already 2 of my fav Indians..and the best part: they'll be under our control for the forseeable future...love it. 2 building blocks imho and only injuries can get in their way now

Still think Tomlin is somewhat under-valued/appreciated around here, he'S the most reliable SP we have, those 9Ws are well deserved...some Tomlin facts:

- 6+ IP in 15 of 16 starts (5IP shortest)
- 12 of 16 QS (9 straight to start the season, then 4 rough game stretch end of May/June, back on track last 3 starts)
- elite WHIP, top10 among SP league wide (in good company: Halladay, Kershaw)

AND HE CAN BUNT !! :biggrin:

Still, people around here talk like he's just another fringe MOR (same guys probably saw at best a BOR in him 1 year ago btw)...goes to show what "upside" is all about: nothing but hot air...produce baby, produce...and Tomlin does, like a #2 SP this season (I see him as a #3 in a good rotation)
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:45 pm

Actually its Vinnie's 2nd ML save (he had one last season).
Still its nice to see him step into the opportunity and give the team a lift.

BTW - nice jobs by Frank and Chad Durbin as well. Frank's is easily recognized. I wonder how many have already forgotten that Chad got the team out of a jam?

1 small move likely overlooked today - Josh Tomlin with a run scored! As soon as he came into the game to PR for the injured Fausto, I like it - based off of Josh's running against Arizona. Makes me wonder if Acta realizes he has another PR he could use in games once interleague play is over.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby InsaneJedi » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:45 pm

Meanwhile, Detroit is getting WALLOPED by San Francisco. 15-0 in the sixth inning. :clapping:
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:04 am

Notes/Observations on the middle game of this three game set:

-Fausto's ballet lessons appear to have failed him.. what a spaz...

-Marson's reputation for his strong arm & accuracy is going to start shutting down opponents running games. The Reds didn't have many opportunities to run.. and didn't try any..

-Standing "O" for the Bullpen Mafia.. Supe'Herrmann was the backbone of a tremendous effort in the game. His blazing fastball and enough 'wrinkles' gave the Reds fits..only joe smith's 'adventurous outing' made the game interesting to the reds (before he slammed the door on them)..

-What offense? Michael Brantley and that's it.. The foul ball by the CHIZ was as scary as they get.. he's going to keep the next one in fair territory, then the legend will begin...

I'll have my broom at the read for today's matinee.. Hopefully, Talbot can start the game with a "I'm in the 3rd inning " mentality..
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:32 am

MadThinker88 wrote:1 small move likely overlooked today - Josh Tomlin with a run scored! As soon as he came into the game to PR for the injured Fausto, I like it - based off of Josh's running against Arizona. Makes me wonder if Acta realizes he has another PR he could use in games once interleague play is over.


Yeah I wouldn't get my hopes up to see Tomlin used as a PR outside of IL play (or maybe the playoffs). While I agree, he's athletic and has some speed, I think Acta knows that if he were to use him as a PR and him end up hurt that there'd be a lynch mob waiting for him outside the ballpark.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:37 am

Agree with most, great job by the pen today. Sipp is still struggling (only pitcher on the team with a negative WARP). Too inconsistent for my tastes still but does get the job done more often than not.

Tightrope act by Smith as well but gets out of it. ERA is meaningless for relievers at this stage but ERA is now under 1. I've been thinking for a while the Tribe may be best served to use a bullpen arm as their trade bait for a bat and thinking Smith may be the best to move. is arby eligible (again), he's putting up some nice numbers (though WHIP is a mediocre 1.3), and he's been passed by Pestano as the 8th inning guy. With guys like Putnam and Judy banging on the door, could be in the Tribe's best interest to deal from a strength like the pen.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:51 am

I recall an argument on here when we acquired Brantley that he was nothing more than a slap hitter.

Feh.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:53 pm

Talbot's starting to tilt me...with all the depth, do we really need to watch a 4.5+ ERA, 1.5+ WHIP guy every 5th game?

3Rs to the Reds crap part of their lineup :bad:
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:02 pm

Tondo wrote:Talbot's starting to tilt me...with all the depth, do we really need to watch a 4.5+ ERA, 1.5+ WHIP guy every 5th game?

3Rs to the Reds crap part of their lineup :bad:


Starting to? I'm fairly certain that if Talbot were in AAA he would be their 5th best starting pitcher after Gomez, Barnes, Huff, and McAllister. Yet he's somehow the 5th starter here. It's not a matter of if he will allow at least 3 runs, but when.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby jellis » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:10 pm

love how this guy is steady and solid, and like every other player who isnt playing like an all star people want to get rid of him right away
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:12 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
Tondo wrote:Talbot's starting to tilt me...with all the depth, do we really need to watch a 4.5+ ERA, 1.5+ WHIP guy every 5th game?

3Rs to the Reds crap part of their lineup :bad:


Starting to? I'm fairly certain that if Talbot were in AAA he would be their 5th best starting pitcher after Gomez, Barnes, Huff, and McAllister. Yet he's somehow the 5th starter here. It's not a matter of if he will allow at least 3 runs, but when.


In fairness to Talbot, in 5 of his 10 starts, he's given up 2 runs or less. And only twice (knock on wood) has he given up more than 3 runs. his job definitely isn't set in stone, but should stick around for a lil while longer. July is going to be a key month for him IMO. Could be an add in for a deal for a bat (he's not a terrible starter really).
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm

I don't want to get rid of him "right away"...I asked a question...I don't want to dump him but I have a hard time believing our Columbus SPs can't do what he does short term...and all have some kind of upside, Talbot is what he is

Also, if you consider 15 QSs in 37 starts "solid" you should do a quick fact check...that's pretty bad, even for a 5th starter
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:30 pm

So much for "steady and solid", make that 23 non-QS in 38 starts
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:35 pm

Tondo wrote:Also, if you consider 15 QSs in 37 starts "solid" you should do a quick fact check...that's pretty bad, even for a 5th starter


For a 5th starter, that is sadly not bad, especially when you look at his whole body of work (number of 5+ starts with 3 runs or less). As far as #5 starters go, he's been pretty solid actually as jellis said.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:56 pm

I'm not ready to give Talbot up for nothing/ptbnl/cash considerations, but that lack of an option is really starting to annoy me. Not even power pitchers can keep missing their location by a foot. It sure seems tempting to bring up both Gomez and McAllister, give each of them two starts, and then see which one gets to stick around.

I think Talbot's stats have gotten quite a boost thanks to the way Acta uses him... giving him the quick hook before it gets too ugly. The bullpen is salvaging innings/games that he wouldn't. Fortunately, Masterson, Tomlin and Carrasco are making the pen's job easier, because Talbot and Carmona certainly aren't. I can't find a convenient way to sort through innings per start, but after today, Carmona will rank 7th and Talbot 8th in lowest percentage of quality starts in the AL (Carmona would have had a good chance to rank better than Talbot if he could just run 90 feet without killing himself).
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Tondo wrote:Also, if you consider 15 QSs in 37 starts "solid" you should do a quick fact check...that's pretty bad, even for a 5th starter


For a 5th starter, that is sadly not bad, especially when you look at his whole body of work (number of 5+ starts with 3 runs or less). As far as #5 starters go, he's been pretty solid actually as jellis said.


As far as number 5 starters go he has been average at best. For me, it's not that I want to crucify Talbot, but the thing is that there are 4 guys knocking on the door in AAA. If there were no other options then I would be fine with his 5.6 (or whatever it is now) ERA but as inept as our offense is, why settle?
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:05 pm

Going with mlb.com depth charts

Talbot 15 QS in 38 starts

Central

Duensing 17 QS in 28 starts
Davies 17 QS in 42 starts
Humber 12 QS in 15 starts
Coke 5 QS in 14 starts

East

Cecil 19 QS in 33 starts
Nova 9 QS in 23 starts (8of16 this year, he's 24yo)
Niemann 20 QS in 38 starts
Wakefield 13 QS in 29 starts
who's the Orioles' 5th?

112 QS in 228 starts...just under 50%, Talbot's just under 40%
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby hoof32 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:15 pm

uh, maybe i'm alone in thinking that Talbot is a gamer and a tough SOB. We can't get much value in trade, IMO, and he's not really someone I want to dump right now anyway.

Today's game, I'm willing to throw that one out... it was hot as, well, hell out there, and I think he just burned up out there... not to make excuses, but that's what I think happened.

Tribe should just be happy the nine game NL road trip is history.

[ REGIONAL DISCLAIMER }

Anytime I've visited Cincinnati, I always found 'leaving' to be the best part... it's a really different culture and mindset down there... Cincy, where 'Men are men, and sheep are scared.' idk.

I always felt like folks down there instantly recognized me as 'an outsider' or a 'yank.' ...the Tribe should take the series win and be glad to get the hell outta Dodge.

/VILE SCREED :diablo:
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:53 pm

I have no problem with Talbot as a 5th starter....he is what he is.

The thing is, we have several options in waiting who are as good or better. So instead of having a 5th starter in the 5th spot, maybe we could have a 3rd or 4th starter in the 5th spot.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:07 am

Personally I'd prefer have Talbot in long relief and option Hermann back to AAA simply bc he has the option. Honestly I'm not sure Talbot would have much trade value if the tribe considered moving him.

I like the idea of giving McAlister and Gomez the chance before Carmona's return. With the system pitching depth some of these guys are going to become expendable at some point but who would they move? It would have to be proper timing.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:55 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Personally I'd prefer have Talbot in long relief and option Hermann back to AAA simply bc he has the option. Honestly I'm not sure Talbot would have much trade value if the tribe considered moving him.

I like the idea of giving McAlister and Gomez the chance before Carmona's return. With the system pitching depth some of these guys are going to become expendable at some point but who would they move? It would have to be proper timing.


How can you put a guy in the pen when he takes several innings to get warmed up. Inning one for Talbot is like a night mare.

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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:40 am

Today's game, I'm willing to throw that one out... it was hot as, well, hell out there, and I think he just burned up out there... not to make excuses, but that's what I think happened.


He burned up in the 2nd inning? And then again in the 4th? Man, it must have been really, really hot. Wonder why it didn't affect Leake that much?

Congratulations to Edgar Renteria on hitting his first home run of the season. Nice pitch, Talbot.

Gotta love finishing up at 5-1 vs. the Reds, though. The Ohio Cup is back where it belongs.

As for Talbot, I think Tony nailed it. The guy has a 5.60 ERA and gives you a quality start less than 40% of the time. With all the options at AAA, surely we can do better. I don't expect Talbot to be around next year. He'll go the way of Laffey and Sowers - guys who flashed some talent now and then but were never consistent. Carmona is on that train, too. Unlike Talbot, he has a chance of getting off.
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Re: Battle of Ohio: part deaux: Cleveland at Cincinnati

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:20 am

The issue with Talbot is simply, he has no weapon. He doesn't have a pitch or a delivery or deception or some combination that can strike fear into batters.. He has NO margin for error.. just like Sowers....

If he throws a fastball that isn't slicing and dicing the black.. IT GETS HAMMERED..
if he throws his change and it's not at the knees or lower.. IT GETS HAMMERED..

Talbot takes too long to settle in (i.e. get the feel for the fastball command and change up) when he's starting.. His FB velocity reached a high of 92 in the game in the Natti yesterday.. but he wasn't able to maintain it and settled to a mediocre 88-89.. IF he were in the pen and IF he were slated to go no more than two or three innings, then, instead of "pacing himself" by throwing 88-89 mph heaters and 84-86 mph change ups.. he might be able to get more separation on the pitches and become more effective.. It's painful to watch every game that he starts...
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