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Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:01 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Astros will get Singleton, Cosart and 2 players to be named from Phillies for Pence. PTBN not major prospects.


Pretty damn steep price if true.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:06 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Astros will get Singleton, Cosart and 2 players to be named from Phillies for Pence. PTBN not major prospects.


Pretty damn steep price if true.


Incredibly steep, IMO. Could only imagine what they wanted from us. Probably something along the lines of White + Kipnis/Chisenhall.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby martyinnewyork » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:13 pm

I am not watching... are the Tribe's hitters actually carrying baseball bats as they approach the plate?
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby martyinnewyork » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:17 pm

In 26 combined innings tonight, the Indians and their top 3 farm teams are... scoreless!!!
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:25 pm

Steep? the main pieces are 2 A-ball players...we couldn't have matched THAT? Aguilar/LeVon and Soto for example?

Cosart has a very unimpressive season in A-ball (bad ratios, mediocre ERA and WHIP)...Singleton looks like a good spec but he's more about age-upside than actual blow away production, his K-rate went way up, striking out every 4th AB...I mean, we're talking 2 A-ball guys that aren't even elite at their levels right now....I think the Phillies owned the Astros here and I don't care where some nerds have those guys ranked....the PTBNL better be some decent ones...for 1 of the best corner OF in his prime, that is under control and didn't have to be traded that's a pretty low return...those guys are 2-3 years away minimum

for that price? I think we could and should have matched
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:32 pm

Seems like the Tribe would have been able to give them 4 solid prospects.

Phillies get their man. Whose next?
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:38 pm

Tondo wrote:Steep? the main pieces are 2 A-ball players...we couldn't have matched THAT? Aguilar/LeVon and Soto for example?

Cosart has a very unimpressive season in A-ball (bad ratios, mediocre ERA and WHIP)...Singleton looks like a good spec but he's more about age-upside than actual blow away production, his K-rate went way up, striking out every 4th AB...I mean, we're talking 2 A-ball guys that aren't even elite at their levels right now....I think the Phillies owned the Astros here and I don't care where some nerds have those guys ranked....the PTBNL better be some decent ones...for 1 of the best corner OF in his prime, that is under control and didn't have to be traded that's a pretty low return...those guys are 2-3 years away minimum

for that price? I think we could and should have matched


I agree we could have at least matched, but it is a good deal for the Astros and would have been hard for the tribe to pull off..... Could have had Pom, Chiz, White even Brantley and Kip in play on some level and couldn't get it done. Well time to pull out the magnifying glass and well.. Opportunity looks to have past us by at least for the major player hitting-wise. Ludwick, all eyes on you, I think Frenchie (price, KC) and Willingham (price) end up not having the best overall value of the left-overs.. Sigh... IMO Colorado just told the tribe, if you really want him, (dramatic pause) make this happen show us your sack.....

Maybe being all over the place has left us in last place when it comes to making the deadline deal...

Side note - who ends up with Giambi, would be a super cheap add and a Hafnerseque bat off the bench or DH for someone...
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:58 pm

Tondo wrote:Steep? the main pieces are 2 A-ball players...we couldn't have matched THAT? Aguilar/LeVon and Soto for example?

Cosart has a very unimpressive season in A-ball (bad ratios, mediocre ERA and WHIP)...Singleton looks like a good spec but he's more about age-upside than actual blow away production, his K-rate went way up, striking out every 4th AB...I mean, we're talking 2 A-ball guys that aren't even elite at their levels right now....I think the Phillies owned the Astros here and I don't care where some nerds have those guys ranked....the PTBNL better be some decent ones...for 1 of the best corner OF in his prime, that is under control and didn't have to be traded that's a pretty low return...those guys are 2-3 years away minimum

for that price? I think we could and should have matched


Soto is not even in Cosart's area code. Just because they're both A-ballers doesn't mean they're equal. Cosart/Singleton are both top 50 prospects the Tribe asking price would have been Pomeranz and Kipnis/Chis and others for it to be equal. And I disagree that we SHOULD have matched it. We shouldn't have. Our team is just not good enough right now. Period.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 pm

They were top 50 guys BEFORE the season...look at the year they're having...no way they'll be on anyone's top 50, especially Cosart

Soto is younger and performs better at the same level...he also owned Cosart in Low-A last year

Cosart is so overrated...there I said it...AVG age for the league, AVG production, he's meh and regressing across the board...don't get the hype at all...wild guess: he has mid-upper 90s heater?

Look back at the nerd's top 50s of the last years, you'll be underwhelmed...there are as much real MLB players from the the next 50 bunch of the specs...and the next 50...and the next and so on

I'm sure you're right about matching and not being on some hyped top 50s but it's still a stupid ass trade for the Stros...2 A-Ball guys, that underperform their hype...bad trade

I would have thrown Soto + Aguilar + LeVon and Monsalve their way if they're high on A-Ball upside specs...I was sure though that they wanted safer and more advanced guys...no wonder the Astros suck if they only look at some obscure top50 specs lists while throwing away their little gold...Phillies owned them, poor Astros
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:21 pm

Tribe could still land Michael Bourn. Bourn is under contract through '12 and would definately add speed to the lineup. Not really sure what he could cost prospect wise but would potentially provide that spark to the O.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:35 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe could still land Michael Bourn. Bourn is under contract through '12 and would definately add speed to the lineup. Not really sure what he could cost prospect wise but would potentially provide that spark to the O.


Not much use to us IMO, but perhaps you can flip him to the Pads with ? for Ludwick?...Might be a good way to boost the welcome home fund.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:39 pm

Tondo wrote:They were top 50 guys BEFORE the season...look at the year they're having...no way they'll be on anyone's top 50, especially Cosart

Soto is younger and performs better at the same level...he also owned Cosart in Low-A last year

Cosart is so overrated...there I said it...AVG age for the league, AVG production, he's meh and regressing across the board...don't get the hype at all...wild guess: he has mid-upper 90s heater?

Look back at the nerd's top 50s of the last years, you'll be underwhelmed...there are as much real MLB players from the the next 50 bunch of the specs...and the next 50...and the next and so on

I'm sure you're right about matching and not being on some hyped top 50s but it's still a stupid ass trade for the Stros...2 A-Ball guys, that underperform their hype...bad trade

I would have thrown Soto + Aguilar + LeVon and Monsalve their way if they're high on A-Ball upside specs...I was sure though that they wanted safer and more advanced guys...no wonder the Astros suck if they only look at some obscure top50 specs lists while throwing away their little gold...Phillies owned them, poor Astros


http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/2011/07/midseason-top-50-prospects-list/

Singleton and Cosart at 41 and 43 even while having underwhelming years. People might like Soto because he's an Indian but he probably wouldn't crack a top 150 for someone out of a neutral perspective, not to mention the injury issues.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:10 am

entertheshoe wrote:
Tondo wrote:They were top 50 guys BEFORE the season...look at the year they're having...no way they'll be on anyone's top 50, especially Cosart

Soto is younger and performs better at the same level...he also owned Cosart in Low-A last year

Cosart is so overrated...there I said it...AVG age for the league, AVG production, he's meh and regressing across the board...don't get the hype at all...wild guess: he has mid-upper 90s heater?

Look back at the nerd's top 50s of the last years, you'll be underwhelmed...there are as much real MLB players from the the next 50 bunch of the specs...and the next 50...and the next and so on

I'm sure you're right about matching and not being on some hyped top 50s but it's still a stupid ass trade for the Stros...2 A-Ball guys, that underperform their hype...bad trade

I would have thrown Soto + Aguilar + LeVon and Monsalve their way if they're high on A-Ball upside specs...I was sure though that they wanted safer and more advanced guys...no wonder the Astros suck if they only look at some obscure top50 specs lists while throwing away their little gold...Phillies owned them, poor Astros


http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/2011/07/midseason-top-50-prospects-list/

Singleton and Cosart at 41 and 43 even while having underwhelming years. People might like Soto because he's an Indian but he probably wouldn't crack a top 150 for someone out of a neutral perspective, not to mention the injury issues.



Law has them 17 and 24 mid season, yes they are far away yet but in single A its more projection then stats, and people see the high upside in them. I mean we could have competed with Pom and Kipnis who are closer but dont have the same ceilings. But whats the point Pence is horribly over rated right now, I think Kipnis could easily hit 280 with 20 Hr which is very close to Pence's typically numbers
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:16 am

jellis wrote:Law has them 17 and 24 mid season, yes they are far away yet but in single A its more projection then stats, and people see the high upside in them. I mean we could have competed with Pom and Kipnis who are closer but dont have the same ceilings. But whats the point Pence is horribly over rated right now, I think Kipnis could easily hit 280 with 20 Hr which is very close to Pence's typically numbers


Oh boy...the "ceiling/high upside"-saga again...those 2 guys have to PRAY to be and produce like Pomz and Kipnis in 2 years and when they have DEVELOPED and improved to that status (aside from not being a sure shot THEN either) some internet nerd will fall in love with another HS kid that has "a much higher ceiling" and will rank him higher than those 2 then, it's comical...

Fact remains: Pomz and Kipnis ARE what those 2 HOPE to become in 2 years...you automatically will lose ceiling when you're up against more and more similar "high ceiling" specs, it's the nature of this hype-game...they're still A-ball guys that haven't even solved A-ball competition..at least Pomz and Kips breezed through A-Ball their 1st time through

They have "higher ceilings" because nobody knows their limitations yet, with that logic a new-born baby has "higher ceiling", hey how do you know, right? they're still much worse players than Pomz and Kips TODAY...it's an odds-game....and odds ARE that they'll lose their "ceilings" fast by going through the system...odds are also MUCH higher that 1 (or maybe both) will never reach Pomz/Kips-status (my money is on Cosart btw)

Ah, remember the days where the "best" spec in the Lee deal was Knapp? Gotta love those "high ceiling" guys...he throws 95 as a 19yo, wohoo...he can do it for 2 weeks, then he falls apart...who cares, he has high ceiling...or LaPorta being a "sure thing" and the main piece in the CC deal? (and I remember vividly how I was derided when noting LaPorta's high K-rate, and still miffed we didn't get a SP back in that deal, which more and more looks like a bad 1)

Track record, consistency and durability trumps "high ceiling" in my book...this deal is a WASH if Singleton becomes a .850 OPS hitter in 3-4 years...do you realize how far away he is from getting there? For the Astros to come out on top in this trade, BOTH have to develop perfectly AND make the jump to the Majors....BOTH, and we're talking 3-4 years from now...odds are against them any way I look at this

2 A-ball specs and a 24yo Popham-version? Are you kidding me? I think the Phillies wanted that 1mil included just to brag, to show the league how much they owned the Astros in this 1, lol

The Astros will suck for years, while Phillies will have a nother WS appearance, well done...and after they reached the POs back to back with Pence, the Phillies will get 2 high draft picks as comp for losing Pence in FA...they'll draft the next "high upside" Singleton and Cosart and they'll fleece some stupid GM again...and so on...
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:21 am

Until our farm system again produces the likes of Ramirez, Belle, Thome and Giles we will continue to be unbalanced. Great pitching also needs hitting to support it.

Our offense is a major problem. Can't afford to put all of our chips from the draft and trades in pitching. It is going to be difficult and tricky to fix without giving up good pitching prospects.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:53 am

I don't like this trade at all for Houston and I'm not all that high on Pence. Seems they should have gotten some closer-to-ML talent in exchange for a guy they didn't have to trade. One of these players may pan out, but they're not gonna help anytime soon. Houston may as well clean house and load up on prospects. Dump Wandy, Myers, and if possible Carlos Lee and aim for 2014 or 2015.

Great situation for Pence though. Should put up better numbers in that park and in that lineup. But he's more of a complimentary piece and not "THE" guy on a team. I'm glad we still have Pom, White, Kip, and Chis....all w/upside and ready/near ready to contribute.


And Eric Bedard was apparently miserable in his 1st start back for Seattle. Maybe lowered his value a bit more...let's go get him! :good:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:23 am

ironmike wrote:Until our farm system again produces the likes of Ramirez, Belle, Thome and Giles we will continue to be unbalanced. Great pitching also needs hitting to support it.

Our offense is a major problem. Can't afford to put all of our chips from the draft and trades in pitching. It is going to be difficult and tricky to fix without giving up good pitching prospects.



The Nats got Mike Morse from Seattle for Ryan freaking Langerhans. Royals signed Melky and Francouer both for 3.75 mil. We could have made any or all of those additions and be looking good. Maybe we get lucky with Nick Johnson, but we need some righty power. LaPorta, Mills, McBride....Chen? Big maybes. I'd give my left nut for Mike Stanton. uh............ :s_no
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:35 am

I know they are trying but sadly the FO and tribe as a whole are earning a big fat F right now when it comes to trading for help... Still time left on the clock though so it could change.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:44 am

Tondo wrote:
jellis wrote:Law has them 17 and 24 mid season, yes they are far away yet but in single A its more projection then stats, and people see the high upside in them. I mean we could have competed with Pom and Kipnis who are closer but dont have the same ceilings. But whats the point Pence is horribly over rated right now, I think Kipnis could easily hit 280 with 20 Hr which is very close to Pence's typically numbers


Oh boy...the "ceiling/high upside"-saga again...those 2 guys have to PRAY to be and produce like Pomz and Kipnis in 2 years and when they have DEVELOPED and improved to that status (aside from not being a sure shot THEN either) some internet nerd will fall in love with another HS kid that has "a much higher ceiling" and will rank him higher than those 2 then, it's comical...

Fact remains: Pomz and Kipnis ARE what those 2 HOPE to become in 2 years...you automatically will lose ceiling when you're up against more and more similar "high ceiling" specs, it's the nature of this hype-game...they're still A-ball guys that haven't even solved A-ball competition..at least Pomz and Kips breezed through A-Ball their 1st time through

They have "higher ceilings" because nobody knows their limitations yet, with that logic a new-born baby has "higher ceiling", hey how do you know, right? they're still much worse players than Pomz and Kips TODAY...it's an odds-game....and odds ARE that they'll lose their "ceilings" fast by going through the system...odds are also MUCH higher that 1 (or maybe both) will never reach Pomz/Kips-status (my money is on Cosart btw)

Ah, remember the days where the "best" spec in the Lee deal was Knapp? Gotta love those "high ceiling" guys...he throws 95 as a 19yo, wohoo...he can do it for 2 weeks, then he falls apart...who cares, he has high ceiling...or LaPorta being a "sure thing" and the main piece in the CC deal? (and I remember vividly how I was derided when noting LaPorta's high K-rate, and still miffed we didn't get a SP back in that deal, which more and more looks like a bad 1)

Track record, consistency and durability trumps "high ceiling" in my book...this deal is a WASH if Singleton becomes a .850 OPS hitter in 3-4 years...do you realize how far away he is from getting there? For the Astros to come out on top in this trade, BOTH have to develop perfectly AND make the jump to the Majors....BOTH, and we're talking 3-4 years from now...odds are against them any way I look at this

2 A-ball specs and a 24yo Popham-version? Are you kidding me? I think the Phillies wanted that 1mil included just to brag, to show the league how much they owned the Astros in this 1, lol

The Astros will suck for years, while Phillies will have a nother WS appearance, well done...and after they reached the POs back to back with Pence, the Phillies will get 2 high draft picks as comp for losing Pence in FA...they'll draft the next "high upside" Singleton and Cosart and they'll fleece some stupid GM again...and so on...



Thats cool I am sure you know more than the guys who scout and and have actually seen this to in person. Have you even seen a video of them. Singleton is 19 and already shows plus power and possible plus plus eye. His only weakness is he plays 1B, his stats stumbled when they tried to play him in the OF. As for Cosart he is 19, and has everything you look for in a pitcher, you take a risk on him because of what he could do. I mean he is just a little bigger risk then Pom, because Pom does't have an even average 3rd pitch yet and could easily still end up a BP arm. Its all projection so they took a risk on high level projection. Its a wash when you compare Kip and Pom to the Philles kids, but their is a reason every scouting site and person out their loved these two guys. Its a steep price in todays world where rarely does one top 40 spec get traded let along 2 guys that some people had in the top 30 of all of baseball
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:59 am

Two scouts say 3rd player in Pence trade, RHP Josh Zeid, ready for bigs now in 'pen. "I'd kill to get Zeid," one says

per ken rosenthal, so zeid who has dominated since the pen move, looks to be more of a putnam type
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:01 pm

Cosart was 19 two years ago...he's 21yo in A+ sporting a 3.92 ERA and 1.3 WHIP...sorry for bringing up reality

As I said, Singleton is a very fine prospect but his K:rate is up since in A+...he has time and eye on his side though

Another thing is overlooked in all those discussions...let's take CC-Brewers trade for example: It was a horrible trade for us looking back...Brantley is fine, nothing great, but ok...LaPorta looks like a bust, Bryson still is in "high upside" land...now, if 1 of LaPorta or Bryson works out I'm sure there are enough fans who would consider this trade a success...I still wouldn't and here's why: TIME

We lost time, by that I don't only mean the time it took those guys to go through the system...but also the schooling time in the Majors..and in some cases it's even completely wasted timne without future success (LaPorta's heading that way)...on top of giving up CC, who contributed immediately (and fetched them 2 specs through comp) we invested 2 seasons only to FIND OUT if they're MLB type players...Brewers on the other end got their "value" the next day of the trade, without having to invest valuable IPs or ABs to find out

lost TIME is often forgotten in the eqaution of those trades, both the moment they happen and assessing them years back
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:08 pm

Tondo wrote:Cosart was 19 two years ago...he's 21yo in A+ sporting a 3.92 ERA and 1.3 WHIP...sorry for bringing up reality

As I said, Singleton is a very fine prospect but his K:rate is up since in A+...he has time and eye on his side though

What also is lots in all those discussion...let's take CC-Brewers trade for example: It was a horrible trade for us looking back...Brantley is fine, nothing great, but ok...LaPorta looks like a bust, Bryson still is in "high upside" land...now, if 1 of LaPorta or Bryson works out I'm sure there are enough fans who would consider this trade a success...I still wouldn't and here's why: TIME

We lost time, by that I don't only mean the time it took those guys to go through the system...but also the schooling time in the Majors..and in some cases it's even completely wasted timne without future success (LaPorta's heading that way)...on top of giving up CC, who contributed immediately (and fetched them 2 specs through comp) we invested 2 seasons only to FIND OUT if they're MLB type players...Brewers on the other end got their "value" the next day of the trade, without having to invest valuable IPs or ABs to find out

lost TIME is often forgotten in the eqaution of those trades, both the moment they happen and assessing them years back


What is the alternative for the Astros? Hold onto Pence and hope that the compensatory prospects that they get in the draft pan out? That's even more unlikely than the prospects in a trade panning out. There really is no alternative, you have to assume that the Astros took the best offer on the table. If I'm the Astros, I'd rather take my chance with 2-4 guys that I know are prospects than drafting two players who I hope are prospects. For every trade of Brantley/LaPorta/Bryson there are also trades of Bartolo Colon for Grady Sizemore/Cliff Lee/Brandon Phillips. Heck, the Colon trade is probably one of the reasons that people are afraid to deal prospects anymore.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:29 pm

entertheshoe wrote:What is the alternative for the Astros? Hold onto Pence and hope that the compensatory prospects that they get in the draft pan out?


Yes, hold onto Pence who was under control 2 more years or take a deal with more advanced specs...don't see the urgency to trade Pence
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ACrank » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:50 pm

The question seems to be is why did the Astros go with such high risk/high reward types. i'd think its going to be a couple of years before this trade is judged, and by that point the Astros are going to have a new front office anyhow. The Astros didn't have to trade Pence, and while it looks like they got a good haul for him i would have expected more AA level players in return.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:55 pm

Tondo wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:What is the alternative for the Astros? Hold onto Pence and hope that the compensatory prospects that they get in the draft pan out?


Yes, hold onto Pence who was under control 2 more years or take a deal with more advanced specs...don't see the urgency to trade Pence


Reports have said that the new owner wanted to cut payroll drastically. Trading Pence is a step in that direction. Perhaps money didn't have anything to do with trading him now, but the trade did happen not long after that story broke.

Moot point as they did get a big return. Not many teams are willing to deal 2 top 50 specs in a deal for a hitter, especially one that isn't a superstar caliber player.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:28 pm

Tony points out via Twitter that both Drew Pomeranz and Alex White scheduled to pitch in Akron (both guys in the same night, same mound). Scouting departments have been familiar with White and Pomeranz for years now (heavily scouted as juniors, and White got a lot of time in the CWS before being a junior, too), but you'd have to think that these are pretty important outings. We can't be so ethnocentric to believe that MLB teams are only looking at Indians prospects, but it's quite likely there will be some high level scouts there. Kind of hope neither impresses b/c I don't want either traded b/c I'm kind of bearish on the 2011 Indians team (it's been BAD since being 30-15) and I'd like to see the Indians eventually win it all with homegrown guys (its just more special to me)/ Also I'm not super bullish on Ubaldo.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:55 pm

jellis wrote:Thats cool I am sure you know more than the guys who scout and and have actually seen this to in person. Have you even seen a video of them. Singleton is 19 and already shows plus power and possible plus plus eye. His only weakness is he plays 1B, his stats stumbled when they tried to play him in the OF. As for Cosart he is 19, and has everything you look for in a pitcher, you take a risk on him because of what he could do. I mean he is just a little bigger risk then Pom, because Pom does't have an even average 3rd pitch yet and could easily still end up a BP arm. Its all projection so they took a risk on high level projection. Its a wash when you compare Kip and Pom to the Philles kids, but their is a reason every scouting site and person out their loved these two guys. Its a steep price in todays world where rarely does one top 40 spec get traded let along 2 guys that some people had in the top 30 of all of baseball


Pom's 3rd pitch was exactly average when drafted and has improved since joining the Indians system. Cosart is a notch below Knapp talent and stuff wise but hasn't had the injury bug bite him yet. Any top 50 ranking that doesn't have Pom in the top 5 is bogus IMO, he's that good. The only reason he isn't pitching for the Tribe at this moment is pitch count and the risk that comes with a big spike in annual pitch count. White is right behind Pom because his changeup isn't as advanced. I wouldn't trade either one of those 2 for Jesus himself. A rotation with Masterson, Pom, and White has the real possibilty of eliteness. Imagine if Knapp finds himself healthy for the next 2 years and the way it looks Barnes isn't far off of being a top 5 with his performance.

It is far from a wash when you compare Pom and Kipnis to Cosart and Singleton. Any Gm in the world of baseball would take Pom and Kipnis over those two every day of the week and twice on Sunday and any rankings showing differently is bullshit. I'm growing tired of the national media's lack of knowledge and acknowledgment of how good and deep the Indians farm system really is. On top of that some that post here jump on that wagon when it roles around. Stop, put the magazine down, and go watch every minor league team the Indians own and see where they are in their respective leagues. The proof is in the pudding and what's more impressive is the fact that they are young on each roster winning against alot of good systems.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:17 pm

Chip Davis wrote:
jellis wrote:Thats cool I am sure you know more than the guys who scout and and have actually seen this to in person. Have you even seen a video of them. Singleton is 19 and already shows plus power and possible plus plus eye. His only weakness is he plays 1B, his stats stumbled when they tried to play him in the OF. As for Cosart he is 19, and has everything you look for in a pitcher, you take a risk on him because of what he could do. I mean he is just a little bigger risk then Pom, because Pom does't have an even average 3rd pitch yet and could easily still end up a BP arm. Its all projection so they took a risk on high level projection. Its a wash when you compare Kip and Pom to the Philles kids, but their is a reason every scouting site and person out their loved these two guys. Its a steep price in todays world where rarely does one top 40 spec get traded let along 2 guys that some people had in the top 30 of all of baseball


Pom's 3rd pitch was exactly average when drafted and has improved since joining the Indians system. Cosart is a notch below Knapp talent and stuff wise but hasn't had the injury bug bite him yet. Any top 50 ranking that doesn't have Pom in the top 5 is bogus IMO, he's that good. The only reason he isn't pitching for the Tribe at this moment is pitch count and the risk that comes with a big spike in annual pitch count. White is right behind Pom because his changeup isn't as advanced. I wouldn't trade either one of those 2 for Jesus himself. A rotation with Masterson, Pom, and White has the real possibilty of eliteness. Imagine if Knapp finds himself healthy for the next 2 years and the way it looks Barnes isn't far off of being a top 5 with his performance.

It is far from a wash when you compare Pom and Kipnis to Cosart and Singleton. Any Gm in the world of baseball would take Pom and Kipnis over those two every day of the week and twice on Sunday and any rankings showing differently is bullshit. I'm growing tired of the national media's lack of knowledge and acknowledgment of how good and deep the Indians farm system really is. On top of that some that post here jump on that wagon when it roles around. Stop, put the magazine down, and go watch every minor league team the Indians own and see where they are in their respective leagues. The proof is in the pudding and what's more impressive is the fact that they are young on each roster winning against alot of good systems.
Your optimism regarding Pomeranz and White may be well founded based on what has been seen from their performance.. At least, I hope you're right.. however, I have to disagree with you regarding Scotty Barnes.. he's a good prospect, a lefty, at the highest level and performing, but, his 'claim to fame' is generated more on a trick delivery than pure stuff.. his stuff just isn't elite and may never be...
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:44 pm

Chip Davis wrote:
jellis wrote:Thats cool I am sure you know more than the guys who scout and and have actually seen this to in person. Have you even seen a video of them. Singleton is 19 and already shows plus power and possible plus plus eye. His only weakness is he plays 1B, his stats stumbled when they tried to play him in the OF. As for Cosart he is 19, and has everything you look for in a pitcher, you take a risk on him because of what he could do. I mean he is just a little bigger risk then Pom, because Pom does't have an even average 3rd pitch yet and could easily still end up a BP arm. Its all projection so they took a risk on high level projection. Its a wash when you compare Kip and Pom to the Philles kids, but their is a reason every scouting site and person out their loved these two guys. Its a steep price in todays world where rarely does one top 40 spec get traded let along 2 guys that some people had in the top 30 of all of baseball


Pom's 3rd pitch was exactly average when drafted and has improved since joining the Indians system. Cosart is a notch below Knapp talent and stuff wise but hasn't had the injury bug bite him yet. Any top 50 ranking that doesn't have Pom in the top 5 is bogus IMO, he's that good. The only reason he isn't pitching for the Tribe at this moment is pitch count and the risk that comes with a big spike in annual pitch count. White is right behind Pom because his changeup isn't as advanced. I wouldn't trade either one of those 2 for Jesus himself. A rotation with Masterson, Pom, and White has the real possibilty of eliteness. Imagine if Knapp finds himself healthy for the next 2 years and the way it looks Barnes isn't far off of being a top 5 with his performance.

It is far from a wash when you compare Pom and Kipnis to Cosart and Singleton. Any Gm in the world of baseball would take Pom and Kipnis over those two every day of the week and twice on Sunday and any rankings showing differently is bullshit. I'm growing tired of the national media's lack of knowledge and acknowledgment of how good and deep the Indians farm system really is. On top of that some that post here jump on that wagon when it roles around. Stop, put the magazine down, and go watch every minor league team the Indians own and see where they are in their respective leagues. The proof is in the pudding and what's more impressive is the fact that they are young on each roster winning against alot of good systems.



It is not an average pitch at all, Tony's report said that this week, and every scouting report has stated he has to develop it. Scouts who are down on Pom and more than a few are say two pitch guy destined for the pen, find me one source that states he has a MLb average third pitch, if he did he would have been much higher in the draft. Pom is a 2/3 and White a 2/4 range guy, Indians fans, I am one tend to get a little irrational about their specs. This is from the person who I believe had Pom rated higher than anyone going into the year
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:03 pm

Jim Bowden saying tribe doesn't want to trade Pomeranz or White... Don't think they should. I like Jimenez but the cost would be too high. Tribes window is not just 2 yrs while ACab, Choo and Jimenez would be under contract. White, Pomeranz, Chisenhall and Kipnis provide the opp. to extend that window of opp. With the potential additions of Lindor, Howard and others (3-5 yrs away) the future 2/3 yrs and beyond are bright.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:10 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Jim Bowden saying tribe doesn't want to trade Pomeranz or White... Don't think they should. I like Jimenez but the cost would be too high. Tribes window is not just 2 yrs while ACab, Choo and Jimenez would be under contract. White, Pomeranz, Chisenhall and Kipnis provide the opp. to extend that window of opp. With the potential additions of Lindor, Howard and others (3-5 yrs away) the future 2/3 yrs and beyond are bright.


Disagree. The window of opportunity is this year, (unexpectedly), and next year. After that it is not likely we will have Choo, ACab, Hafner, and a few others. No bats will be near ready in the system for a long time.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:11 pm

Pomeranz scratched from his AA start....... something brewing?!?!?
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:14 pm

jellis wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
jellis wrote:Thats cool I am sure you know more than the guys who scout and and have actually seen this to in person. Have you even seen a video of them. Singleton is 19 and already shows plus power and possible plus plus eye. His only weakness is he plays 1B, his stats stumbled when they tried to play him in the OF. As for Cosart he is 19, and has everything you look for in a pitcher, you take a risk on him because of what he could do. I mean he is just a little bigger risk then Pom, because Pom does't have an even average 3rd pitch yet and could easily still end up a BP arm. Its all projection so they took a risk on high level projection. Its a wash when you compare Kip and Pom to the Philles kids, but their is a reason every scouting site and person out their loved these two guys. Its a steep price in todays world where rarely does one top 40 spec get traded let along 2 guys that some people had in the top 30 of all of baseball


Pom's 3rd pitch was exactly average when drafted and has improved since joining the Indians system. Cosart is a notch below Knapp talent and stuff wise but hasn't had the injury bug bite him yet. Any top 50 ranking that doesn't have Pom in the top 5 is bogus IMO, he's that good. The only reason he isn't pitching for the Tribe at this moment is pitch count and the risk that comes with a big spike in annual pitch count. White is right behind Pom because his changeup isn't as advanced. I wouldn't trade either one of those 2 for Jesus himself. A rotation with Masterson, Pom, and White has the real possibilty of eliteness. Imagine if Knapp finds himself healthy for the next 2 years and the way it looks Barnes isn't far off of being a top 5 with his performance.

It is far from a wash when you compare Pom and Kipnis to Cosart and Singleton. Any Gm in the world of baseball would take Pom and Kipnis over those two every day of the week and twice on Sunday and any rankings showing differently is bullshit. I'm growing tired of the national media's lack of knowledge and acknowledgment of how good and deep the Indians farm system really is. On top of that some that post here jump on that wagon when it roles around. Stop, put the magazine down, and go watch every minor league team the Indians own and see where they are in their respective leagues. The proof is in the pudding and what's more impressive is the fact that they are young on each roster winning against alot of good systems.



It is not an average pitch at all, Tony's report said that this week, and every scouting report has stated he has to develop it. Scouts who are down on Pom and more than a few are say two pitch guy destined for the pen, find me one source that states he has a MLb average third pitch, if he did he would have been much higher in the draft. Pom is a 2/3 and White a 2/4 range guy, Indians fans, I am one tend to get a little irrational about their specs. This is from the person who I believe had Pom rated higher than anyone going into the year

FWIW, Pomeranz showed no evidence of an "average" third pitch that I witnessed in ST. He didn't even throw it until after Chen lit him up for a three run HR in a game. That being said, the tape I have watched since then seems to indicate progress especially against RHs. It is tough to project how third pitches develop but I would think a MOR base projection with the potential for higher is not unreasonable. After all, he is in his first year and the pitching ahead of him means he has not needed to be rushed like I believe might have been done to White. :pleasantry:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ACrank » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:17 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Pomeranz scratched from his AA start....... something brewing?!?!?



Listening to the game now - caught everyone on press row on surprise. Apparently there were a lot of changes in the lineup.

White scratched too.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:26 pm

Something has to be up but scratching Drew makes little sense. He can't be dealt till 1 year after he signed - 8/15/11. He could be a PTBNL until that point.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:27 pm

Alex White also scratched from rehab appearance.

Giving up both of the for Ubaldo?!?!?!? Not sure i'm liking that idea!
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Has to be more than Ubaldo Jimenez. Maybe Iannetta is involved too.

I don't want to see White or Pomeranz moved for Ubaldo. These guys are controlable for 6 yrs Jimenez has 2 yrs and 2 option yrs (player option???).
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ACrank » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:39 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Alex White also scratched from rehab appearance.

Giving up both of the for Ubaldo?!?!?!? Not sure i'm liking that idea!


Erie announcer said there is a report from the Denver Post that Kipnis is included.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:44 pm

ACrank wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Alex White also scratched from rehab appearance.

Giving up both of the for Ubaldo?!?!?!? Not sure i'm liking that idea!


Erie announcer said there is a report from the Denver Post that Kipnis is included.


Kip still playing in CLE, so I find that hard to believe.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:47 pm

Thats the report on Mlbtraderumors.com asked for Chisenhall absolutely stupid IMO.

Listening to Rox pregame now... On MLB atbat app... I'll report what they're saying.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:48 pm

Ubaldo scratched for the Rox tonight too.

Looks like it's going down..... the question now is the cost.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:49 pm

Ml trade rumors report tribe acq. Jimenez.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Just a thought on my part - what if the deal the rockies only has 1 of white/ Pomeranz with Kipnis for Ubaldo and Iannetta and the other of white/ pomeranz is part of deal for another player (Upton/ Bourne/ ???).

I find it strange to trade all 3 of those prospects but I might consider it if I'm getting more then just Ubaldo and players from more than the Rockies.

BTW - heard the Matt McBride was also scratched in Akron.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Mlbtraderumors report... Pom, White, McBride for Jimenez.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:59 pm

I'm torn.

Ubaldo is a helluva talent..... but, they've given up a LOT of pitching talent to get him if the deal is as reported.

Damn, Antonetti isn't shy if that's the case!
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Really a two for one deal. Hate to lose two studs like Pomeranz and White. Makes sense but hate to lose those two. Both have questions but both could be a number 1/2 type. Should solidify the Rox for yrs.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:07 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I'm torn.

Ubaldo is a helluva talent..... but, they've given up a LOT of pitching talent to get him if the deal is as reported.

Damn, Antonetti isn't shy if that's the case!


I'm not torn...if it's indeed Pom and White then I hate this deal for the Tribe. Ubaldo is not a helluva a talent. He's a #3 starting pitcher who had one great 1st half in 2010. Other than that, he's been good but never great.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby stoike » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:11 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:I'm torn.

Ubaldo is a helluva talent..... but, they've given up a LOT of pitching talent to get him if the deal is as reported.

Damn, Antonetti isn't shy if that's the case!


I'm not torn...if it's indeed Pom and White then I hate this deal for the Tribe. Ubaldo is not a helluva a talent. He's a #3 starting pitcher who had one great 1st half in 2010. Other than that, he's been good but never great.


I think we gave up too much...far and away our two best pitching prospects. But, Ubaldo is young and has a great arm, with the stuff to be a #1 pitcher....he is a very hard thrower when right. However, his mechanics have been a bit of a mess.

I wish we could rescind this trade!!! :s_cry
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:12 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:I'm torn.

Ubaldo is a helluva talent..... but, they've given up a LOT of pitching talent to get him if the deal is as reported.

Damn, Antonetti isn't shy if that's the case!


I'm not torn...if it's indeed Pom and White then I hate this deal for the Tribe. Ubaldo is not a helluva a talent. He's a #3 starting pitcher who had one great 1st half in 2010. Other than that, he's been good but never great.


People knock Ubaldo's season but check out his away splits:

2.83 ERA, 60 innings pitched, 38 hits (only 1 home run), 65 strikeouts, .178 average

compare that to

5.55 ERA, 61 innings pitched, 78 hits (9 HR), 51 strikeouts, .310 average

Let's just hope it's the elevation. I know people talk about it being hitter friendly but damn.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:12 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:I'm torn.

Ubaldo is a helluva talent..... but, they've given up a LOT of pitching talent to get him if the deal is as reported.

Damn, Antonetti isn't shy if that's the case!


I'm not torn...if it's indeed Pom and White then I hate this deal for the Tribe. Ubaldo is not a helluva a talent. He's a #3 starting pitcher who had one great 1st half in 2010. Other than that, he's been good but never great.


He is a helluva talent....by no means has he turned that talent into ace consistency but the talent is still there.

I'm not a fan of the deal as reported but, to be the other side of these deals is a change that's for sure.
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