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2011 Prospect rankings

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:22 pm

Unless you changed the formulas, Hagadone finished as the 11th rated prospect, with a spread of 27 ranging from 4th to unrated (31). TheShow left Nick off his list.

If that single data point was removed, Hagadone would slide past Phelps into the 10 slot, but the spread would only be 13 (4 to 17).
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby mikesmith » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:51 pm

Stats and performance just don't support the over-hyped Kipnis vs Phelps-- fact never mentioned on this board—Phelps and Kipnis are the same age, same class year in college, both entered the 08 draft as college juniors, both were selected in the 2008 draft, Phelps taken in the 3rd round, Kipnis taken in the 4th (after Phelps). Kipnis was re-drafted in 09, and then he was taken in the 2nd—but when they were both available in the same draft (2008)–Phelps was drafted before not after Kipnis. FYI
Check out their relative performances in college and the College World Series--start comparing apples to apples since they've been with the Indians--forget the hype, you may come up with different answers.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:29 pm

mikesmith wrote:Stats and performance just don't support the over-hyped Kipnis vs Phelps-- fact never mentioned on this board—Phelps and Kipnis are the same age, same class year in college, both entered the 08 draft as college juniors, both were selected in the 2008 draft, Phelps taken in the 3rd round, Kipnis taken in the 4th (after Phelps). Kipnis was re-drafted in 09, and then he was taken in the 2nd—but when they were both available in the same draft (2008)–Phelps was drafted before not after Kipnis. FYI
Check out their relative performances in college and the College World Series--start comparing apples to apples since they've been with the Indians--forget the hype, you may come up with different answers.

Welcome to the board mike. You have probably been lurking but possibly not long enough. The Kipnis/Phelps comparison has been done ad nauseum. We are all aware of the age similarity and I, for one, saw both in college. I think the edge goes to Kipnis because of defensive upside and I am a big Phelps fan. Offensively, it may be close to a pick'em for me with a slight edge to Kipnis in power and Phelps in plate discipline. As for the draft, not quite apples. Kipnis was a draft eligible sophmore who could come back if he didn't like the offer. San Diego chose to offer slot and Kipnis thought he was better than that. Kipnis was right but it took a bold position change for it to work out. I am looking forward to seeing both at ST but I have a suspicion that Phelps may be getting too big for 2B defensively. Maybe he is just solid and will stay that way but Kipnis does have the range potential to be more. :pleasantry:
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby mikesmith » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:18 pm

Lets do apples to apples again--the only reason Kipnis was a draft eligible sophmore in 08' rather than the junior that his age indicated was that at Kentucky in 06' he sat on the bench, unable to win a spot in the OF. Therefore, in 07' he was a redshirted freshman (rather than a sophmore) and in 08' he was a draft eligible sophmore (rather than a junior). Phelps, as a comparison, won his starting position at Stanford from his freshman year onward--never rode the bench, therefore he was never red-shirted--they are the same age, same year in college. Kipnis wasn't able to make the starting team as a freshman and Phelps was---that is the only reason he was a draft eligible sophmore rather than a junior in the 08 draft. Details--
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:50 pm

mikesmith wrote:Lets do apples to apples again--the only reason Kipnis was a draft eligible sophmore in 08' rather than the junior that his age indicated was that at Kentucky in 06' he sat on the bench, unable to win a spot in the OF. Therefore, in 07' he was a redshirted freshman (rather than a sophmore) and in 08' he was a draft eligible sophmore (rather than a junior). Phelps, as a comparison, won his starting position at Stanford from his freshman year onward--never rode the bench, therefore he was never red-shirted--they are the same age, same year in college. Kipnis wasn't able to make the starting team as a freshman and Phelps was---that is the only reason he was a draft eligible sophmore rather than a junior in the 08 draft. Details--

Absolutely mike. But the reasons for being a draft eligible sophmore don't make much difference IMO. Had he been a junior eligible like Phelps, his draft position would likely have been considerably higher, somewhere between high 2nd and early 3rd. Draft eligible sophmores tend to fall because of signability and cost issues. I know I would be pleasantly surprised if Kipnis were able to duplicate his 2010 performance where he had many factors go his way but it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Just as I would be pleasantly surprised if Phelps gap power improved to HR power which is also not beyond the realm of possiblity. But I happen to think the defensive upside is pretty well set at this point. Just an opinion. :drinks:
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby theshow » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:03 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Unless you changed the formulas, Hagadone finished as the 11th rated prospect, with a spread of 27 ranging from 4th to unrated (31). TheShow left Nick off his list.

If that single data point was removed, Hagadone would slide past Phelps into the 10 slot, but the spread would only be 13 (4 to 17).


My apologies. That was actually an oversight. I meant to have Hagadone in there. I probably would have put him in the 10-13 range. I should have looked a little closer at my list before submitting it.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 pm

theshow wrote:
MadThinker88 wrote:Unless you changed the formulas, Hagadone finished as the 11th rated prospect, with a spread of 27 ranging from 4th to unrated (31). TheShow left Nick off his list.

If that single data point was removed, Hagadone would slide past Phelps into the 10 slot, but the spread would only be 13 (4 to 17).


My apologies. That was actually an oversight. I meant to have Hagadone in there. I probably would have put him in the 10-13 range. I should have looked a little closer at my list before submitting it.


I think the biggest reason there is even a spread of 13 is because some of us ranked him as a relief pitcher and others as a starter. I ranked him feeling he would be in the pen at 14. If he starts he immediately climbs into the top 10. Because his role is sort of TBD he is a hard one to rank.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:32 pm

The point of the comment was to illustrate how "meaningful.. or lack thereof" the spread of opinions, even with fairly avid fans of the Indians and their farm system, existed. These differences may eventually prove to be significant as several of the top ten players have very limited profressional experience, ...e.g. Drew Pomeranz & Levon Washington.. who's rankings are based almost completely on projection. Some of these kids will perform and become future stars..others will fail for reasons as simple as these are young men and they lack maturity to become professionals..

Cue: IronMike to claim it's all shapiro's fault as the Indians didn't know who was a player with the skills necessary to become ML'ers and the ownership for hiring his lap dog, Chris Antonneti for whatever he makes up next...

(Note: Ironmike needs a gag.. his repeated rants are obtuse)
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Good points on phelps/kipnis being the same age and same college class. This doesn't really affect their prospect standing though. Both are comparable defenders which I would side slightly with kipnis, but offensively kipnis is no question a better prospect. That's not to slight phelps either as he is a very good player and prospect and offensive performer himself. The difference is phelps projects as a solid big league second baseman whereas kipnis has star potential and an impact bat at the big league level. I do agree that some people give phelps too much the short end of the stick.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:36 pm

FWIW, Law put out a post today saying that had Santana been in this year's prospects ranking (he didn't miss by much), he would have been either one or two, depending on Strasburg's situation. Had Strasburg not been in the mix (as is the case), Santana would have been one. And he said if he stays healthy and behind the plate, he can become the best player in the AL.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby mikesmith » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:22 am

TonyIPI wrote:Good points on phelps/kipnis being the same age and same college class. This doesn't really affect their prospect standing though. Both are comparable defenders which I would side slightly with kipnis, but offensively kipnis is no question a better prospect. That's not to slight phelps either as he is a very good player and prospect and offensive performer himself. The difference is phelps projects as a solid big league second baseman whereas kipnis has star potential and an impact bat at the big league level. I do agree that some people give phelps too much the short end of the stick.


I’m new to these boards but…Hmmm.—comparable defenders? We must be watching different players. Phelps is a natural middle IF---from PAC 10 thru his performance with the Indians. Even if your bloggers are not familiar with his collegiate reputation as one of the best defensive 2B in the nation, I believe BA named him ‘best tools’ defensive 2B after the 09 season with the Indians. Kipnis is awkward, at best, in the IF---doesn’t move like an infielder because he isn’t.---defensively he belongs in the OF… Just wondering how much you’ve actually seen these two players—makes me skeptical when you evaluate Kipnis as having comparable defensive skills/ instincts as Phelps—Too bad Kipnis can’t win a spot in the OF where he belongs, and probably where he knows his natural defensive skills fit.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:00 am

mikesmith wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Good points on phelps/kipnis being the same age and same college class. This doesn't really affect their prospect standing though. Both are comparable defenders which I would side slightly with kipnis, but offensively kipnis is no question a better prospect. That's not to slight phelps either as he is a very good player and prospect and offensive performer himself. The difference is phelps projects as a solid big league second baseman whereas kipnis has star potential and an impact bat at the big league level. I do agree that some people give phelps too much the short end of the stick.


I’m new to these boards but…Hmmm.—comparable defenders? We must be watching different players. Phelps is a natural middle IF---from PAC 10 thru his performance with the Indians. Even if your bloggers are not familiar with his collegiate reputation as one of the best defensive 2B in the nation, I believe BA named him ‘best tools’ defensive 2B after the 09 season with the Indians. Kipnis is awkward, at best, in the IF---doesn’t move like an infielder because he isn’t.---defensively he belongs in the OF… Just wondering how much you’ve actually seen these two players—makes me skeptical when you evaluate Kipnis as having comparable defensive skills/ instincts as Phelps—Too bad Kipnis can’t win a spot in the OF where he belongs, and probably where he knows his natural defensive skills fit.


Many talent evaluators have said that Kipnis has been a good defender at second every since his transition. Not bad, mediocre, or great, but fairly good. In terms of Phelps, he's only about at the same level as Kipnis, IMO. I've watched Phelps play on a number of occasions to say he is not an elite defender.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:31 pm

mikesmith wrote:I’m new to these boards but…Hmmm.—comparable defenders? We must be watching different players. Phelps is a natural middle IF---from PAC 10 thru his performance with the Indians. Even if your bloggers are not familiar with his collegiate reputation as one of the best defensive 2B in the nation, I believe BA named him ‘best tools’ defensive 2B after the 09 season with the Indians. Kipnis is awkward, at best, in the IF---doesn’t move like an infielder because he isn’t.---defensively he belongs in the OF… Just wondering how much you’ve actually seen these two players—makes me skeptical when you evaluate Kipnis as having comparable defensive skills/ instincts as Phelps—Too bad Kipnis can’t win a spot in the OF where he belongs, and probably where he knows his natural defensive skills fit.


I've seen both play many times at every level or league since turning pro. Saw Phelps play at Mahoning Valley in 08, Kinston in 09, Akron/Columbus in 10. Probably about 20 times total. Saw Kipnis in Mahoning Valley in 09, Kinston/Akron in 10 and in the AFL in 10. Probably about 25 times total. In addition to that I have seen each many times in spring training the past few years. The only level I have missed with Kipnis is Columbus in the playoffs, though did see him on TV if that counts in the AAA Championship game.

Again, I see two very comparable defenders. No question Phelps is the better of the two right now, but that's not how these guys are evaluated. It's all about the future tools and projection, and bottom line from all the scouts both inside and outside the Indians organization as well as their coaches, managers and Player Development staff, most believe Kipnis will be an above average defender and ultimately the better defender of the two (though they are quick to note that the difference is minimal).

I believe Phelps will be a big league player, and a solid one. Unfortunately as what happens so often he is overshadowed somewhat by a player viewed as a better prospect and who many think is the next big thing at 2B (offensively). Time will tell on all that, and Phelps may end up the better player, but right now at this moment Kipnis just has significant more value, and hence is a higher rated prospect.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:37 pm

I don't think reading is one of Mike's stronger skills. I actually saw both play in college and wrote that directly to you. Phelps was a very good college 2B. That does not mean diddly in the pros, especially when you are talking about the majors. If you were familiar with the differences, you would understand why college ball infield defense has little relevance to the professional game. Did you scout both in College mike? How many times have you seen them live since turning Pro, mike? I would be willing to guess your observations are something you read in some blog. The concept of young men in their early twenties changing physically seems to elude you as does the different skills. The pro game is about what they can become, not what they were. :nea:
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby gotribe31 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:37 pm

I've seen Kip play about a dozen or so games at 2B. Ackward is not a word I would use to describe him. He looked a little unsure of himself early on (as expected) but took to the position very well. He probably still needs to shore up his release and double-play pivot, but he's an outstanding athlete who is pretty much unanimously projected to be league-average or better defensively. No one's saying he's Robbie Alomar, but for someone to suggest he's Carlos Baerga simply isn't true.

Contrast that to Dustin Ackley, who most scouts are saying will likely have to return to the OF.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby mikesmith » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:06 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I don't think reading is one of Mike's stronger skills. I actually saw both play in college and wrote that directly to you. Phelps was a very good college 2B. That does not mean diddly in the pros, especially when you are talking about the majors. If you were familiar with the differences, you would understand why college ball infield defense has little relevance to the professional game. Did you scout both in College mike? How many times have you seen them live since turning Pro, mike? I would be willing to guess your observations are something you read in some blog. The concept of young men in their early twenties changing physically seems to elude you as does the different skills. The pro game is about what they can become, not what they were. :nea:


I don’t spend time reading blogs. I stumbled upon this site recently and was motivated to contribute because the opinions were curious. I have seen both of these players A LOT--in college and since turning pro. We can have different opinions without you presuming inaccurate knowledge about me that would prove embarrassing if you knew who I was. Baseball America selected Phelps (after turning Pro, not collegiate) as “Best Tools” defensive 2B---(that said, many on the inside view BA as just another blog)
It is understandable that the Indians want Kipnis’s bat in the line up but for anyone to watch him move and execute in the IF and ‘see’ natural instincts-----hmmm, curious. I wish him luck but defensively he belongs in the OF, and even he would say that. Enough said, Enjoy the season---.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby theshow » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:00 am

Which begs the question: what baseball guru is writing under the pen name mike smith? The world may never know.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:48 am

Offensively, the best part about Cord Phelps game from the few times I personally watched in Akron was how often he "stung" the ball. The ball just seemed to find the sweet spot on his bat, even when it was clear he had been fooled (i.e.. pitch recognition) as he belted line drives everywhere. He's a gap to gap hitter.. sort of reminded me of Victor Martinez with a much shorter swing. His power may develop, or not, but there is no question he can barrel the ball..
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby daingean » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:56 am

theshow wrote:Which begs the question: what baseball guru is writing under the pen name mike smith? The world may never know.


He's the head coach of the Atlanta Falcons searching for a RB to backup Michael Turner. Phelps has the size and grittiness to be a backup RB and Special Teamer.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:40 pm

mikesmith wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Good points on phelps/kipnis being the same age and same college class. This doesn't really affect their prospect standing though. Both are comparable defenders which I would side slightly with kipnis, but offensively kipnis is no question a better prospect. That's not to slight phelps either as he is a very good player and prospect and offensive performer himself. The difference is phelps projects as a solid big league second baseman whereas kipnis has star potential and an impact bat at the big league level. I do agree that some people give phelps too much the short end of the stick.


I’m new to these boards but…Hmmm.—comparable defenders? We must be watching different players. Phelps is a natural middle IF---from PAC 10 thru his performance with the Indians. Even if your bloggers are not familiar with his collegiate reputation as one of the best defensive 2B in the nation, I believe BA named him ‘best tools’ defensive 2B after the 09 season with the Indians. Kipnis is awkward, at best, in the IF---doesn’t move like an infielder because he isn’t.---defensively he belongs in the OF… Just wondering how much you’ve actually seen these two players—makes me skeptical when you evaluate Kipnis as having comparable defensive skills/ instincts as Phelps—Too bad Kipnis can’t win a spot in the OF where he belongs, and probably where he knows his natural defensive skills fit.


I agree and disagree with you mike. Phelps is vastly superior right now to Kipnis defensively at 2B. Trying to say otherwise further proves my point that while this is a great site, their is an extreme lack of defensive knowledge here, or I guess a better way to put it, fans on here love to take what they project out of a player's defense and make him that good now (which is pretty comical). That said, I agree with others that Kipnis can and will improve. I don't think he'll ever be truely above average or elite, but think he can be very solid-to-average there based on what I've seen. Still looks soooo awkward turning a DP, but that's to be expected.

Where I really disagree with you is that Kipnis belongs in the OF defensively. Kipnis can't play CF, period. Yes, he would probably make a good LFer...then again, many people make good LFers since it's arguably the easiest position to play on the diamond. What you should be saying is "too bad Kipnis doesn't have a big enough bat to play a corner outfield spot" as that's the only place he could play in the OF due to his poor defense out there.

Kipnis does remind me a bit of Baerga over at 2B....though again, I think he'll improve and be better than that when all is said and done :drinks:


I think one thing we can all agree on at least.....the Kipnis 2B experiement >>>>> the Crowe 2B experiment :s_thumbsup
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby wahoofanchicago » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:32 am

mikesmith wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I don't think reading is one of Mike's stronger skills. I actually saw both play in college and wrote that directly to you. Phelps was a very good college 2B. That does not mean diddly in the pros, especially when you are talking about the majors. If you were familiar with the differences, you would understand why college ball infield defense has little relevance to the professional game. Did you scout both in College mike? How many times have you seen them live since turning Pro, mike? I would be willing to guess your observations are something you read in some blog. The concept of young men in their early twenties changing physically seems to elude you as does the different skills. The pro game is about what they can become, not what they were. :nea:


I don’t spend time reading blogs. I stumbled upon this site recently and was motivated to contribute because the opinions were curious. I have seen both of these players A LOT--in college and since turning pro. We can have different opinions without you presuming inaccurate knowledge about me that would prove embarrassing if you knew who I was. Baseball America selected Phelps (after turning Pro, not collegiate) as “Best Tools” defensive 2B---(that said, many on the inside view BA as just another blog)
It is understandable that the Indians want Kipnis’s bat in the line up but for anyone to watch him move and execute in the IF and ‘see’ natural instincts-----hmmm, curious. I wish him luck but defensively he belongs in the OF, and even he would say that. Enough said, Enjoy the season---.


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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby wahoofanchicago » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:35 am

Seriously though, I have no idea whether Phelps or Kipnis will be better, just glad we have two really strong 2b prospects!
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:33 am

Let's see now..., Seems as if "the evaluation" of the Indians 2011 infielders has some flaws.. We'll start with the "projected" starters:

Asdrubal Cabrera... plays poor defensive..
Jason Donald... plays poor defense..
Jason Nix.. plays poor defense..

..and onto the potential back ups & recent acquisitions:

Jason Kipnis.. plays poor defense..
Cord Phelps.. plays poor defense..
Orlando Cabrera.. has played 2 games per season at 2B and will turn into Shawon Dustin, i.e. plays poor defense..
Lonnie Chisenhall.. plays poor defense..

Looks like a pattern has developed regarding current and future Indian Infielders.... Everyone plays poor defense !! :s_dunno
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:26 pm

Baseball America's Top 100:

1. Bryce Harper, of, Nationals
2. Mike Trout, of, Angels
3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
4. Domonic Brown, of, Phillies
5. Jeremy Hellickson, rhp, Rays
6. Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves
7. Aroldis Chapman, lhp, Reds
8. Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals
9. Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals
10. Wil Myers, of/c, Royals
11. Jameson Taillon, rhp, Pirates
12. Dustin Ackley, 2b, Mariners
13. Shelby Miller, rhp, Cardinals
14. Manny Machado, ss, Orioles
15. Matt Moore, lhp, Rays
16. Michael Pineda, rhp, Mariners
17. Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves
18. John Lamb, lhp, Royals
19. Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals
20. Chris Sale, lhp, White Sox
21. Jacob Turner, rhp, Tigers
22. Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
23. Brandon Belt, 1b, Giants
24. Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers
25. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3b, Indians
26. Dee Gordon, ss, Dodgers
27. Chris Archer, rhp, Rays
28. Zach Britton, lhp, Orioles
29. Kyle Drabek, rhp, Blue Jays
30. Gary Sanchez, c, Yankees
31. Casey Kelly, rhp, Padres
32. Tyler Matzek, lhp, Rockies
33. Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
34. Kyle Gibson, rhp, Twins
35. Randall Delgado, rhp, Braves
36. Travis d'Arnaud, c, Blue Jays
37. Mike Minor, lhp, Braves
38. Brett Jackson, of, Cubs
39. Jonathan Singleton, 1b/of, Phillies
40. Brett Lawrie, 2b, Blue Jays
41. Manny Banuelos, lhp, Yankees
42. Jordan Lyles, rhp, Astros
43. Dellin Betances, rhp, Yankees
44. Jenrry Mejia, rhp, Mets
45. Aaron Hicks, of, Twins
46. Tony Sanchez, c, Pirates
47. Alex White, rhp, Indians
48. Trey McNutt, rhp, Cubs
49. Wilin Rosario, c, Rockies
50. Billy Hamilton, ss/2b, Reds
51. Christian Colon, ss, Royals
52. Jose Iglesias, ss, Red Sox
53. Nick Franklin, ss/2b, Mariners
54. Jason Kipnis, 2b, Indians
55. Zack Wheeler, rhp, Giants
56. Brody Colvin, rhp, Phillies
57. Jean Segura, 2b, Angels
58. Simon Castro, rhp, Padres
59. Wilmer Flores, ss, Mets
60. Miguel Sano, 3b/ss, Twins
61. Drew Pomeranz, lhp, Indians
62. Zack Cox, 3b, Cardinals
63. Grant Green, ss, Athletics
64. Derek Norris, c, Nationals
65. Nick Castellanos, 3b, Tigers
66. Danny Espinosa, ss/2b, Nationals
67. Anthony Ranaudo, rhp, Red Sox
68. Danny Duffy, lhp, Royals
69. Jake Odorizzi, rhp, Royals
70. Jarred Cosart, rhp, Phillies
71. Jake McGee, lhp, Rays
72. Devin Mesoraco, c, Reds
73. Yonder Alonso, 1b/of, Reds
74. Jurickson Profar, ss, Rangers
75. Anthony Rizzo, 1b, Padres
76. Tyler Chatwood, rhp, Angels
77. Cesar Puello, of, Mets
78. Andrew Brackman, rhp, Yankees
79. Stetson Allie, rhp, Pirates
80. Nolan Arenado, 3b, Rockies
81. Matt Dominguez, 3b, Marlins
82. Tyler Skaggs, lhp, Diamondbacks
83. Chris Dwyer, lhp, Royals
84. Tanner Scheppers, rhp, Rangers
85. Brent Morel, 3b/ss, White Sox
86. Craig Kimbrel, rhp, Braves
87. Andy Oliver, lhp, Tigers
88. Josh Sale, of, Rays
89. Zach Lee, rhp, Dodgers
90. Rubby de la Rosa, rhp, Dodgers
91. Chris Carter, 1b/of, Athletics
92. Hak-Ju Lee, ss, Rays
93. Arodys Vizcaino, rhp, Braves
94. Jonathan Villar, ss, Astros
95. Deck McGuire, rhp, Blue Jays
96. Wilson Ramos, c, Nationals
97. Drake Britton, lhp, Red Sox
98. Austin Romine, c, Yankees
99. Matt Davidson, 3b, Diamondbacks
100. Joe Benson, of, Twins

Nothing crazy there for the Indians, but I'd say those are probably all on the upper end of where they figured to rank. On a personal note, I'm excited to hear that Bryce Harper is already set to start his career at Lo-A Hagerstown, as the park is a 10 minute drive from my sister's house.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:47 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:Baseball America's Top 100:

Nothing crazy there for the Indians, but I'd say those are probably all on the upper end of where they figured to rank. On a personal note, I'm excited to hear that Bryce Harper is already set to start his career at Lo-A Hagerstown, as the park is a 10 minute drive from my sister's house.


Better plan on going to one of their 1st few games - can't see him there for more than a month. Also, kind of surprised Knapp doesn't get a little more love in the 90-100th range on some of these list.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:12 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Pork Chop Pough wrote:Baseball America's Top 100:

Nothing crazy there for the Indians, but I'd say those are probably all on the upper end of where they figured to rank. On a personal note, I'm excited to hear that Bryce Harper is already set to start his career at Lo-A Hagerstown, as the park is a 10 minute drive from my sister's house.


Better plan on going to one of their 1st few games - can't see him there for more than a month. Also, kind of surprised Knapp doesn't get a little more love in the 90-100th range on some of these list.

I understand the injury thing with both but I thought Weglarz might have gotten a look at the end as well. :pleasantry:
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:18 pm

As everyone probably knows, I don't place a lot of stock in BA prospect ratings but I was surprised to see the comparative decline of the twins system along with the tigers and white sox. Not so with the Royals who have some good talent.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:27 pm

The four Tribe guys all drafted in the last 3 years. With White probably "graduating" from prospect status this year, I expect to see Washington & Knapp( the only non-draftee) on this list next year.

Kudos to Grant & his Scouting Staff Crew. :drinks:
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:42 pm

Rocky55 wrote:The four Tribe guys all drafted in the last 3 years. With White probably "graduating" from prospect status this year, I expect to see Washington & Knapp( the only non-draftee) on this list next year.

Kudos to Grant & his Scouting Staff Crew. :drinks:



Chun Chen will crack the top 100 next year. He will have one of the best years out of all the bats in the system. If his D at catcher continues to improve its a lock.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:52 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Chun Chen will crack the top 100 next year. He will have one of the best years out of all the bats in the system. If his D at catcher continues to improve its a lock.

BA doesn't have a very high opinion of Chen at this point (don't have the book with me right now, but know he ranked low-20s in the organization)... questioned his receiving abilities and whether he has the bat speed for higher levels. Personally, I really like Chen, and so does seemingly everyone else on this forum. Now this is probably just my own anecdotal observation, but it seems that aside from a few extreme cases, it usually takes BA two seasons to do a 180 on their opinion of a prospect.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby daingean » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:14 pm

Rocky55 wrote:The four Tribe guys all drafted in the last 3 years. With White probably "graduating" from prospect status this year, I expect to see Washington & Knapp( the only non-draftee) on this list next year.

Kudos to Grant & his Scouting Staff Crew. :drinks:


My guess would be Hagadone (who re-establishes his future as a starter) and Wolters. I think it will take Washington another year to shake the bad arm strength label.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:54 pm

daingean wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:The four Tribe guys all drafted in the last 3 years. With White probably "graduating" from prospect status this year, I expect to see Washington & Knapp( the only non-draftee) on this list next year.

Kudos to Grant & his Scouting Staff Crew. :drinks:


My guess would be Hagadone (who re-establishes his future as a starter) and Wolters. I think it will take Washington another year to shake the bad arm strength label.

Maybe Wolters, not sure about Hagadone. I think he's a reliever. I hope he's a starter. Pork Chop is exactly right:
Pork Chop Pough wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Chun Chen will crack the top 100 next year. He will have one of the best years out of all the bats in the system. If his D at catcher continues to improve its a lock.

BA doesn't have a very high opinion of Chen at this point (don't have the book with me right now, but know he ranked low-20s in the organization)... questioned his receiving abilities and whether he has the bat speed for higher levels. Personally, I really like Chen, and so does seemingly everyone else on this forum. Now this is probably just my own anecdotal observation, but it seems that aside from a few extreme cases, it usually takes BA two seasons to do a 180 on their opinion of a prospect.

BA is a lagging indicator. BA loves Washington. Washington hit the ground running post draft. I think if he carries it over this coming season he's a lock for BA's list. Not sure what BA thinks of Wolters. I LOVE the kid. I know PG does too. Have to admit though, based on pure tools, Washington>Wolters. I'm glad we have both of them.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:21 am

Baseball Intellect got their item up over the past few days. While they say they rank the top 15, they actually go much deeper (28 ranked plus a ton of honorable mentions).

I won't post the full free reports they gave on Kipnis or Weglarz but I do find it a good read. I'm actually considering a subscription to be able to review the other reports.

Enjoy.

http://www.baseball-intellect.com/cleve ... ects-2011/

Cleveland Indians Top-15 Prospects of 2011
February 19, 2011 By Alex Eisenberg

1. Jason Kipnis | 2b | Age – 24 | Grade – B+
2. Drew Pomeranz | LHP | Age – 22 | Grade – B/B+
3. Lonnie Chisenhall | 3b | Age – 22 | Grade – B/B+
4. Jason Knapp | RHP | Age – 20 | Grade – B
5. Alex White | RHP | Age – 22 | Grade – B/B-
6. Nick Weglarz | 1b/LF | Age – 23 | Grade – B-/B
7. Joe Gardner | RHP | Age – 23 | Grade – B-
8. LeVon Washington | OF/2b | Age – 19 | Grade – B-
9. Tyler Holt | CF | Age – 22 | Grade – B-/C+
10. Kyle Blair | RHP | Age – 22 | Grade – B-/C+
11. Nick Hagadone | LHP | Age – 25 | Grade – C+
12. Bryce Stowell | RHP | Age – 24 | Grade – C+
13. Chun Chen | C | Age – 22 | Grade – C+
14. Tony Wolters | SS | Age – 18 | Grade – C+
15. Zach Putnam | RHP | Age – 23 | Grade – C+
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby daingean » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:46 am

Rocky55 wrote:
daingean wrote:My guess would be Hagadone (who re-establishes his future as a starter) and Wolters. I think it will take Washington another year to shake the bad arm strength label.

Maybe Wolters, not sure about Hagadone. I think he's a reliever. I hope he's a starter. Pork Chop is exactly right:


I am not yet ready to write off Hagadone as a starter. Lefties develop late (Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, Lefty Grove all didn't get things going in the majors until their upper 20's) especially tall lefties. Tall lefties also are late in developing control + control is the last thing to come after TJ surgery.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:41 pm

daingean wrote:I am not yet ready to write off Hagadone as a starter. Lefties develop late (Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, Lefty Grove all didn't get things going in the majors until their upper 20's) especially tall lefties. Tall lefties also are late in developing control + control is the last thing to come after TJ surgery.


While I don't think we should write him off as a starter.....I think it's pretty certain he will be in the pen. They will keep him in the rotation/piggybacking this year mostly to develop his pitches/mechanics and not because they view him as a starting option. That said, if he goes out and shows better command and his secondary stuff improves....who knows. Things can change! And it would be wonderful if that does indeed happen.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:49 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Maybe Wolters, not sure about Hagadone. I think he's a reliever. I hope he's a starter.


I actually think Hagadone may have a better shot at being in the top 100 next year if he did move to the pen. BA isn't against putting stud closer/setup guy types in their top 100. They had Daniel Bard in their top 100 who is a comparable type guy. Boston tried him as a starter but eventually moved him back to the bullpen.

I agree though, hope he remains a starter...though the thought of him and Perez in the 8th and 9th does sound intriguing. :drinks:
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby ktriber » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:16 am

mikesmith wrote:Stats and performance just don't support the over-hyped Kipnis vs Phelps-- fact never mentioned on this board—Phelps and Kipnis are the same age, same class year in college, both entered the 08 draft as college juniors, both were selected in the 2008 draft, Phelps taken in the 3rd round, Kipnis taken in the 4th (after Phelps). Kipnis was re-drafted in 09, and then he was taken in the 2nd—but when they were both available in the same draft (2008)–Phelps was drafted before not after Kipnis. FYI
Check out their relative performances in college and the College World Series--start comparing apples to apples since they've been with the Indians--forget the hype, you may come up with different answers.


I watched both guys many times while they were in Kinston. Got to see Phelps play more because he was there longer. Overall, I give the edge to Kipnis because of his ability to drive the ball. Admittedly, Phelps blossomed as an offensive player when he moved up to Akron, but there is a distinct difference in their offensive abilities. Phelps does have really good discipline at the plate though. Also, I thought Phelps was an amazingly consistent defender at second base, probably the best I have seen in a while at Kinston. Kipnis will continue to improve at second and will do fine at the major league level in my opinion. Both are quality young men and I am glad they are both with Cleveland.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:16 am

ktriber wrote: I watched both guys many times while they were in Kinston. Got to see Phelps play more because he was there longer. Overall, I give the edge to Kipnis because of his ability to drive the ball. Admittedly, Phelps blossomed as an offensive player when he moved up to Akron, but there is a distinct difference in their offensive abilities. Phelps does have really good discipline at the plate though. Also, I thought Phelps was an amazingly consistent defender at second base, probably the best I have seen in a while at Kinston. Kipnis will continue to improve at second and will do fine at the major league level in my opinion. Both are quality young men and I am glad they are both with Cleveland.


Well written Ktriber.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:46 am

Baseball Prospectus Top 101

1. Bryce Harper, OF, Nationals
2. Mike Trout, OF, Angels
3. Jesus Montero, C, Yankees
4. Domonic Brown, OF, Phillies
5. Julio Teheran, RHP, Braves
6. Aroldis Chapman, RHP, Reds
7. Mike Moustakas, 3B, Royals
8. Jameson Taillon, RHP, Pirates
9. Jeremy Hellickson, RHP, Rays
10. Matt Moore, LHP, Rays
11. John Lamb, LHP, Royals
12. Eric Hosmer, 1B, Royals
13. Wil Myers, C, Royals
14. Kyle Drabek, RHP, Blue Jays
15. Shelby Miller, RHP, Cardinals
16. Manny Machado, SS, Orioles
17. Zach Britton, RHP, Orioles
18. Desmond Jennings, OF, Rays
19. Chris Sale, LHP, White Sox
20. Freddie Freeman, 1B, Braves
21. Mike Montgomery, LHP, Royals
22. Brandon Belt, 1B/OF, Giants
23. Jacob Turner, RHP, Tigers
24. Michael Pineda, RHP, Mariners
25. Dustin Ackley, 2B, Mariners
26. Mike Minor, LHP, Braves
27. Manny Banuelos, LHP, Yankees
28. Jason Kipnis, 2B, Indians
29. Gary Sanchez, C, Yankees
30. Chris Carter, 1B, Athletics
31. Miguel Sano, 3B, Twins
32. Dellin Betances, RHP, Yankees
33. Martin Perez, LHP, Rangers
34. Tyler Matzek, LHP, Rockies
35. Jean Segura, 2B, Angels
36. Wilin Rosario, C, Rockies
37. Jose Iglesias, SS, Red Sox
38. J.P. Arencibia, C, Blue Jays
39. Stetson Allie, RHP, Pirates
40. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B, Indians
41. Derek Norris, C, Nationals
42. Jarrod Parker, RHP, Diamondbacks
43. Drew Pomeranz, RHP, Indians
44. Nick Franklin, SS, Mariners
45. Jenrry Mejia, RHP, Mets
46. Billy Hamilton, 2B/SS, Reds
47. Brett Jackson, OF, Cubs
48. Casey Kelly, RHP, Padres
49. Grant Green, SS, Athletics
50. Arodys Vizcaino, RHP, Braves
51. Aaron Hicks, OF, Twins
52. Zack Wheeler, RHP, Giants
53. Devin Mesoraco, C, Reds
54. Zach Lee, RHP, Dodgers
55. Kyle Gibson, RHP, Twins
56. Craig Kimbrel, RHP, Braves
57. Brett Lawrie, 2B, Blue Jays
58. Randall Delgado, RHP, Braves
59. Jordan Lyles, RHP, Astros
60. Brody Colvin, RHP, Phillies
61. Simon Castro, RHP, Padres
62. Ben Revere, OF, Twins
63. Jonathan Singleton, 1B, Phillies
64. Jordan Walden, RHP, Angels
65. Nick Castellanos, 3B, Tigers
66. Chris Dwyer, LHP, Royals
67. Danny Duffy, LHP, Royals
68. Trey McNutt, RHP, Cubs
69. Anthony Rizzo, 1B, Padres
70. Chris Archer, RHP, Cubs
71. Alex White, RHP, Indians
72. Kenley Jansen, RHP, Dodgers
73. Jake McGee, LHP, Rays
74. Michael Choice, OF, Athletics
75. Matt Harvey, RHP, Mets
76. Jeremy Jeffress, RHP, Royals
77. Jake Odorizzi, RHP, Royals
78. Jurickson Profar, SS, Rangers
79. Tanner Scheppers, RHP, Rangers
80. Matt Dominguez, 3B, Marlins
81. Luis Heredia, LHP, Pirates
82. Delino Deshields, OF/2B, Astros
83. Tyler Skaggs, LHP, Diamondbacks
84. Dee Gordon, SS, Dodgers
85. Hank Conger, C, Angels
86. Yasmani Grandal, C, Reds
87. Andy Oliver, LHP, Tigers
88. Christian Colon, SS, Royals
89. Ian Krol, LHP, Athletics
90. Caleb Cowart, 3B, Angels
91. Eduardo Escobar, SS, White Sox
92. Danny Espinosa, 2B, Nationals
93. Tony Sanchez, C, Pirates
94. Christian Yelich, OF, Marlins
95. A.J. Cole, RHP, Nationals
96. Guillermo Pimentel, OF, Mariners
97. Jaff Decker, OF, Padres
98. Wilmer Flores, SS, Mets
99. Trayvon Robinson, OF, Dodgers
100. Anthony Ranaudo, RHP, Red Sox
101. Donavan Tate, OF, Padres

A slightly different flavor in the positioning of Tribe prospects, but no surprise as Kevin Goldstein has obviously liked Kipnis and Pomeranz a bit more than the other national outlets.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:25 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:Baseball Prospectus Top 101

1. Bryce Harper, OF, Nationals
2. Mike Trout, OF, Angels
3. Jesus Montero, C, Yankees
4. Domonic Brown, OF, Phillies
5. Julio Teheran, RHP, Braves
6. Aroldis Chapman, RHP, Reds
7. Mike Moustakas, 3B, Royals
8. Jameson Taillon, RHP, Pirates
9. Jeremy Hellickson, RHP, Rays
10. Matt Moore, LHP, Rays
11. John Lamb, LHP, Royals
12. Eric Hosmer, 1B, Royals
13. Wil Myers, C, Royals
14. Kyle Drabek, RHP, Blue Jays
15. Shelby Miller, RHP, Cardinals
16. Manny Machado, SS, Orioles
17. Zach Britton, RHP, Orioles
18. Desmond Jennings, OF, Rays
19. Chris Sale, LHP, White Sox
20. Freddie Freeman, 1B, Braves
21. Mike Montgomery, LHP, Royals
22. Brandon Belt, 1B/OF, Giants
23. Jacob Turner, RHP, Tigers
24. Michael Pineda, RHP, Mariners
25. Dustin Ackley, 2B, Mariners
26. Mike Minor, LHP, Braves
27. Manny Banuelos, LHP, Yankees
28. Jason Kipnis, 2B, Indians
29. Gary Sanchez, C, Yankees
30. Chris Carter, 1B, Athletics
31. Miguel Sano, 3B, Twins
32. Dellin Betances, RHP, Yankees
33. Martin Perez, LHP, Rangers
34. Tyler Matzek, LHP, Rockies
35. Jean Segura, 2B, Angels
36. Wilin Rosario, C, Rockies
37. Jose Iglesias, SS, Red Sox
38. J.P. Arencibia, C, Blue Jays
39. Stetson Allie, RHP, Pirates
40. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B, Indians
41. Derek Norris, C, Nationals
42. Jarrod Parker, RHP, Diamondbacks
43. Drew Pomeranz, RHP, Indians
44. Nick Franklin, SS, Mariners
45. Jenrry Mejia, RHP, Mets
46. Billy Hamilton, 2B/SS, Reds
47. Brett Jackson, OF, Cubs
48. Casey Kelly, RHP, Padres
49. Grant Green, SS, Athletics
50. Arodys Vizcaino, RHP, Braves
51. Aaron Hicks, OF, Twins
52. Zack Wheeler, RHP, Giants
53. Devin Mesoraco, C, Reds
54. Zach Lee, RHP, Dodgers
55. Kyle Gibson, RHP, Twins
56. Craig Kimbrel, RHP, Braves
57. Brett Lawrie, 2B, Blue Jays
58. Randall Delgado, RHP, Braves
59. Jordan Lyles, RHP, Astros
60. Brody Colvin, RHP, Phillies
61. Simon Castro, RHP, Padres
62. Ben Revere, OF, Twins
63. Jonathan Singleton, 1B, Phillies
64. Jordan Walden, RHP, Angels
65. Nick Castellanos, 3B, Tigers
66. Chris Dwyer, LHP, Royals
67. Danny Duffy, LHP, Royals
68. Trey McNutt, RHP, Cubs
69. Anthony Rizzo, 1B, Padres
70. Chris Archer, RHP, Cubs
71. Alex White, RHP, Indians
72. Kenley Jansen, RHP, Dodgers
73. Jake McGee, LHP, Rays
74. Michael Choice, OF, Athletics
75. Matt Harvey, RHP, Mets
76. Jeremy Jeffress, RHP, Royals
77. Jake Odorizzi, RHP, Royals
78. Jurickson Profar, SS, Rangers
79. Tanner Scheppers, RHP, Rangers
80. Matt Dominguez, 3B, Marlins
81. Luis Heredia, LHP, Pirates
82. Delino Deshields, OF/2B, Astros
83. Tyler Skaggs, LHP, Diamondbacks
84. Dee Gordon, SS, Dodgers
85. Hank Conger, C, Angels
86. Yasmani Grandal, C, Reds
87. Andy Oliver, LHP, Tigers
88. Christian Colon, SS, Royals
89. Ian Krol, LHP, Athletics
90. Caleb Cowart, 3B, Angels
91. Eduardo Escobar, SS, White Sox
92. Danny Espinosa, 2B, Nationals
93. Tony Sanchez, C, Pirates
94. Christian Yelich, OF, Marlins
95. A.J. Cole, RHP, Nationals
96. Guillermo Pimentel, OF, Mariners
97. Jaff Decker, OF, Padres
98. Wilmer Flores, SS, Mets
99. Trayvon Robinson, OF, Dodgers
100. Anthony Ranaudo, RHP, Red Sox
101. Donavan Tate, OF, Padres

A slightly different flavor in the positioning of Tribe prospects, but no surprise as Kevin Goldstein has obviously liked Kipnis and Pomeranz a bit more than the other national outlets.


Out of all national "experts" who have a great understanding of prospects, I tend to like Goldstein the most. I actually like his list.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:06 pm

I located Jonathon Mayo's top 10 for the Tribe prospects today and I didn't find a link or posting of it elsewhere on this site. Enjoy :dirol:
video.aol.ca/video-detail/indians-top-10-prospects/679370613

1. Lonnie Chisenhall
2. Alex White
3. Jason Kipnis
4. Drew Pomeranez
5. LeVon Washington
6. Nick Weglarz
7. Joe Gardner
8. Tony Wolters
9. Jason Knapp
10. Cord Phelps

Edit: Here's a another link for review....
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13170333
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:27 am

My copy of the 2011 Minor League Baseball Analyst arrived today. Personally I think its well worth the $20 cost (just like Tony's book and the BA Prospect Handbook).

As a reminder this book rates prospects on future potential and assigns 2 grades to each player - a number (1 - 10 with 10 being high) & a letter (A to E). In brief 10 = HOF, 9 = Elite player, 8 = Solid player, 7 = Average player, 6 = Platoon player. The letters representing % chance of achieving that level with A = 90% chance and E = 10% chance (B is 70, C is 50 and D is 30).

Here is the book's top 15 Tribe prospects and the other Tribe prospects that got rated.

Tribe top 15
1. Lonnie Chisenhall 3B Grade: 9C
2. Jason Kipnis 2B Grade: 8A
3. Alex White RHP Grade: 9C
4. Drew Pomeranz LHP Grade: 9C
5. Jason Knapp RHP Grade: 9C
6. Nick Weglarz OF Grade: 9D
7. Hector Rondon RHP Grade: 8C
8. T.J. House LHP Grade: 8C
9. LeVon Washington OF Grade: 8C
10. Nick Hagadone LHP Grade: 9E
11. Abner Abreu OF Grade: 9E
12. Joe Gardner RHP Grade: 8C
13. Cord Phelps INF Grade: 7A
14. Chue-Hsiu Chen C Grade: 8D
15. Kelvin de la Cruz LHP Grade: 9E
Others in the book:
BATTERS
Ezequiel Carrera, 6A
Juan Diaz, 7D
John Drennen, 7D
Jared Goedert, 7B
Bo Greenwell, 7C
Jordan Henry, 6A
Alex Lavisky, 8D
Matt McBride, 7D
Beau Mills, 7B
Jeremie Tice, 7C
Tony Wolters, 7B
PITCHERS
Scott Barnes, 7C
Eric Berger, 7D
Kyle Blair, 8D
Rob Bryson, 8D
Josh Judy, 7B
Corey Kluber, 7C
Chen-Chang Lee, 7B
Zach McAllister, 7C
Alexander Perez, 8D
Bryan Price, 7A
Zach Putnam, 7B
Giovanni Soto, 8E
Bryce Stowell, 7B
Jess Todd, 7A

The book also rated organizations and the Indians rated as the 4th best system with an A- and behind in order: KC, Atlanta and Tampa Bay. In terms of the 2010 draft the Indians grades as an A-.
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Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby elrod enchilada » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:16 am

Thanks for providing this information. I like their grading system.
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