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BA chat

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

BA chat

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:53 pm

once again cutting this down to just the indians parts, if people think this is lame please alert me and I will stop

Scott (Hartford, CT): Thanks for the chat. Who would you say are the five prospects most likely to help major league clubs this year?

SportsNation Jim Callis: David Price, lhp, Rays

Matt Wieters, c, Orioles

Colby Rasmus, of, Cardinals

Tommy Hanson, rhp, Braves

Matt LaPorta, of, Indians

Arnie New York: Jim, who reaches the majors first and do you think it will be this year. Justin Smoak, Gordon Beckham or Matt LaPorta? Thanks for taking my question.

SportsNation Jim Callis: LaPorta, because he's further along. I think he'll be in Cleveland before the all-star break.

Jake (Buffalo , NY): who's got the best upside for the Tribe- they all seem about the same- S. Lewis, D. Huff, J. Sowers, A. Laffey?

SportsNation Jim Callis: I like Huff the best of that group. His changeup is a difference-maker.

ike (STL MO): Laporta or Wallace?

SportsNation Jim Callis: Wallace.


Keith (Chicago): Is Michael Brantley an everyday player?

SportsNation Jim Callis: Not unless he finds more power. At least not on a contender.
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Re: BA chat

Postby endlesssleeper » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:19 pm

not lame at all, thanks and keep it up.
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:25 am

If LaPorta is mashing, end of May callup wouldn't suprise me (would keep him from being a Super-Two arbitration guy down the road)....
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Re: BA chat

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:03 am

Yeah, thanks for posting.
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Re: BA chat

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:57 pm

Definitely keep it up (so long as the parent sites don't mind).
Those of us not subscribing to certain services love reading the thoughts and insights of Callis, Law, etc.
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Re: BA chat

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:15 pm

I figure as I rule at this point (tony shoot this down if its not cool)

Is I will try and summarize anything I get off of premium content from BA

From the free BA and the espn insider I will copy and paste

Like I said though, this is tony's place and he knows who checks here and I dont want this site to get into any trouble, so whatever is his opinion goes
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Re: BA chat

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:17 pm

Sounds like a plan... :s_thumbsup
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Re: BA chat

Postby npc29 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:22 pm

I don't understand why not hitting for a ton of power would keep Brantley from being an everyday player.. Not everyone in the lineup needs to hit for power.
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Re: BA chat

Postby TheWord » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:42 pm

Yea, but you can't be a big league starter without being able to hit doubles and triples either.

For his size, he should be hitting a much higher SLG % than what he does.
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Re: BA chat

Postby cardiackidz » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:55 pm

thats all old school scout crap that you have to have power in LF. if you have a center fielder or middle in fielders that hit for power you can have a speed high batting average guy in a corner OF spot. the cardinals went to the world series in 1985 with vince coleman in left and the as did the white sox with scott podsednik 2005. with peralta at short and sizemore in center you can live with brantley in LF, if hes going to hit for a high BA.
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Re: BA chat

Postby jellis » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:11 pm

cardiackidz wrote:thats all old school scout crap that you have to have power in LF. if you have a center fielder or middle in fielders that hit for power you can have a speed high batting average guy in a corner OF spot. the cardinals went to the world series in 1985 with vince coleman in left and the as did the white sox with scott podsednik 2005. with peralta at short and sizemore in center you can live with brantley in LF, if hes going to hit for a high BA.



there is the if for many people, I think his doubters see him as a slower podsednik, I am not a doubter but I think that's a view that many have
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Re: BA chat

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:32 pm

Keith (Chicago): Laffey or Huff?

SportsNation Jim Callis: Huff.

only real question this week
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Re: BA chat

Postby dnosco » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:16 pm

cardiackidz wrote:thats all old school scout crap that you have to have power in LF. if you have a center fielder or middle in fielders that hit for power you can have a speed high batting average guy in a corner OF spot. the cardinals went to the world series in 1985 with vince coleman in left and the as did the white sox with scott podsednik 2005. with peralta at short and sizemore in center you can live with brantley in LF, if hes going to hit for a high BA.


I understand your point but this is not a 9-guy equation where your OBP/SLG/Defense has to add up to a certain number where you can take away from one if you have excess in another one. You are at an advantage with Grady in CF, why would you give that up by putting a substandard SLG guy in LF? You are giving up any advantage that Grady brings. Now, granted, if Brantley turns into an excellent ML player (above average LF defense with some ability to play CF, passable arm,an OPS of .790-.800) and 40 steals in 50 attempts) I am fine with it.

But, still, why in the world would anyone give up the advantage that Grady brings or even, and I am not picking on you because a lot of people do it, even suggest that as a rational argument for settling for less out of LF then even the old scout school expected? I mean, they were projecting based on the mean of OF production. If anything, I would be trying to find a great centerfielder with an excellent arm and good bat to move Grady to LF, let him bulk up a little more and give you excellent defense without all the body crunching diving and running into walls that have killed the career of a very comparable CFer, Jim Edmonds (Edmonds with a much better arm, BTW). Otherwise, project for if and when Grady leaves because, right now, Brantley with, say a Taveras-like CFer and Choo could easily represent the worst starting OF in baseball, at least offensively. Not that this would happen but it makes you like Brantley as a slap hitter a lot less if you have a slap hitter at SS (cabrera), 2B (Valbuena) and then in CF and LF, assuming Grady leaves.

No, for me, let's allow Grady's advantage to play and not negate it to regress to the mean until if and when we lose Grady then we can have the option to replace him with the mean for centerfielders which, combined with Choo in RF and a power hitting LFer (LaPorta?) gives you a league average or better offensive OF.

Just my thoughts. Not meant to rag on anyone or everyone. Just thinking out loud.
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Re: BA chat

Postby twdelaney34 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:39 pm

dnosco wrote:
cardiackidz wrote:thats all old school scout crap that you have to have power in LF. if you have a center fielder or middle in fielders that hit for power you can have a speed high batting average guy in a corner OF spot. the cardinals went to the world series in 1985 with vince coleman in left and the as did the white sox with scott podsednik 2005. with peralta at short and sizemore in center you can live with brantley in LF, if hes going to hit for a high BA.


I understand your point but this is not a 9-guy equation where your OBP/SLG/Defense has to add up to a certain number where you can take away from one if you have excess in another one. You are at an advantage with Grady in CF, why would you give that up by putting a substandard SLG guy in LF? You are giving up any advantage that Grady brings. Now, granted, if Brantley turns into an excellent ML player (above average LF defense with some ability to play CF, passable arm,an OPS of .790-.800) and 40 steals in 50 attempts) I am fine with it.

But, still, why in the world would anyone give up the advantage that Grady brings or even, and I am not picking on you because a lot of people do it, even suggest that as a rational argument for settling for less out of LF then even the old scout school expected? I mean, they were projecting based on the mean of OF production. If anything, I would be trying to find a great centerfielder with an excellent arm and good bat to move Grady to LF, let him bulk up a little more and give you excellent defense without all the body crunching diving and running into walls that have killed the career of a very comparable CFer, Jim Edmonds (Edmonds with a much better arm, BTW). Otherwise, project for if and when Grady leaves because, right now, Brantley with, say a Taveras-like CFer and Choo could easily represent the worst starting OF in baseball, at least offensively. Not that this would happen but it makes you like Brantley as a slap hitter a lot less if you have a slap hitter at SS (cabrera), 2B (Valbuena) and then in CF and LF, assuming Grady leaves.

No, for me, let's allow Grady's advantage to play and not negate it to regress to the mean until if and when we lose Grady then we can have the option to replace him with the mean for centerfielders which, combined with Choo in RF and a power hitting LFer (LaPorta?) gives you a league average or better offensive OF.

Just my thoughts. Not meant to rag on anyone or everyone. Just thinking out loud.


Dennis, agree with your point that we don't want to negate the advantage we have with Grady in CF, by settling for a LF with typical CF offensive statistics. But, you have to admit, this team is kind of set up differently. You have ++ power bats at atypical positions in CF, SS and C. I would say the power production at 1B, 3B and RF are average, with the potential to be above average. This leaves 2B, LF and DH. We know a power bat is sliding into the DH role. So, we're down to 2 spots for OBP and speed guys to set the table or be contact guys at the bottom of the order.

I think this is why some people are ok with less SLG in LF. While we're "regressing to the mean" to an extent, you have to have table setters somewhere, right? I guess you could go with a lineup of all power guys, which is conceivable with this team, safe for 2B (I am slotting DeRosa as a power guy as he was 20+ HRs last season). Perhaps things change when we slide Jhonny to 3B for Valbuena, but if Hodges proves his worth and Peralta stays at SS, the speed/OBP guys have to be somewhere.

It's funny. A lot of guys will complain about how slow we are on the basepaths, but then they clamor for typical slotting of players (Power in RF, LF, 1B, 3B). This team isn't built that way, and I think it's ok in that sense. I know it's not a 9 function equation, but to an extent, you have to have some balance. Not digging at you, cause I see what you're saying, I just think this team is a bit different and can live with atypical production from LF.

Funny we're discussing this, this is topic for my second piece to submit to Rich for the TCF new writer finals. Look for more analysis when he posts those.
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:21 am

We are at an advantage with Grady in CF....but that's not really the point. Take out all positions and just look at the lineup for second.

Grady is a very good leadoff hitter. Walks a TON for a leadoff hitter (though strikes out a lot too). Has an OBP over .380 typically. He's a good table setter with plus speed. However, he also has plus power, which is slightly wasted in the leadoff spot; however, emphasis on 'slightly' there. A HR to start the game may only yield 1 run, but does jump start the offense. However, if Grady were in the 3-hole, he'd likely get more RBIs and help the Tribe score more runs. Problem with that is, currently we have no one who can hit leadoff other than Grady (or at least well). In steps Brantley.

If Brantley can put up a .380-.400 OBP he can help take this offense to another level. Arguably the best offense the Tribe had in their late 90's runs was the 1999 team (Scored over 1000 runs that season). A big reason (other than Manny's best season argueably as a pro) was the top of the lineup that consisted of Lofton (a guy Brantley could very well become, at least offensively), Vizquel (a guy that Cabrera could potentially become offensively.....though I think he falls short on the SBs), and then Robbie Alomar (a guy like Grady who could have lead off but had more power than a typical leadoff guy). Valbuena could also be a possibility for the 2-hole.

Not saying we have to have a lineup like that to be a great team. But a 1-2-3 of Brantley, Cabrera (or Valbuena), Grady does sound very nice with the potential that's there for Brantley (and Valbuena). Plug in Martinez, Hafner, and Peralta behind them with guys like Garko, Shoppach, Choo, LaPorta, Mills, Santana, Hodges, Crowe, and Valbuena.


This wouldn't be the first time a guy with little power (or a 'slap hitter' as you like to call him) would be hitting leadoff and playing a cOF spot. Ichiro is making a case for the Hall of Fame and was a RFer for much of his career. Vince Coleman played LF and never hit more than 6 HRs in a ML season. Figgins is likely to be the Angels opening day LFer as things stand now and is far from a power guy (never had 10 HRs in a season). Obviously not as many as say CF or 2B, but who cares? If playing Brantley in LF and batting leadoff makes this a better lineup (which it EASILY could), then it's a great move.

Now, not saying that Brantley is a sure thing. He could easily struggle in AAA and/or the MLs. But the prospects of Brantley hitting leadoff and Grady in the 3-hole should make any Tribe fan excited. That's the type of speed we haven't seen in a decade at the top of our lineup.....
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Re: BA chat

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:48 am

Though I agree with you that Brantley has chance to be a productive everyday LF'er without showing the typical power, your comparisons with Ichiro and Figgins (I really hope Brantley doesn't turn into Vince Coleman) are little misjudged. Figgins has been an infielder for most of his career and Ichiro is a career .331 hitter with plus defense in the outfield. I understand the point you're trying to make though. If Brantley can hit for the same average in AAA, maintain his excellent plate discipline, improve his defense a little bit (though I'm not sure how much he improved over the past season) and maybe up his power numbers to the point where he can sport a .120-.130 IsoP, there's absolutely no reason why he shouldn't become an everyday player.
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:03 pm

Figgins has been the everyday 3B the last few years for the Angels....a position that 'should' have as much power as a corner outfielder....so yeah, not exactly the same but still a guy with no power playing a power posisiton, which was the point I was really getting at.

Ichiro does hit .331....but his OBP has only twice been over .390 and for his career is .377, which is pretty good for a leadoff hitter. He doesn't walk the same as Brantley. As a leadoff guy it doesn't matter really what your BA is, it's all about OBP.

I wasn't comparing them as identical players, just that none had power, yet still put up good OBP's as leadoff guys (I agree on the Coleman thing, his OBP wasn't very good, but did hit leadoff some and played LF with no power). I also wasn't comparing defensive skills, just batting (Ichiro is definitely better defensively than Brantley, won't get an arguement from me there).

David DeJesus could be another guy to use as well. Played a lot of CF but is better suited for LF (where he'll play now that Crisp is in town). Was hitting leadoff yet til this year had never had 10 HRs in a season at the ML leavel, but has a decent OBP of .360. Does have more doubles power (as do all the guys mentioned pretty much). Brantley definitely needs to work on at least hitting the gaps....which I have faith he'll do....but we'll see.

The Columbus team is gonna be a VERY interesting team to watch. Can Brantley develop some power? Will Crowe become a ML regular or 4th OFer? Will LaPorta remain in the OF or go to 1B? Can Hodges improve his infield defense? If there, how will Barfield perform and can he become a MLer again? Can Valbuena handle SS? Will Valbuena become an everyday 2B or a utility guy?

And that's not even getting into the pitchers, lol
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Re: BA chat

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:49 pm

jellis wrote:I figure as I rule at this point (tony shoot this down if its not cool)

Is I will try and summarize anything I get off of premium content from BA

From the free BA and the espn insider I will copy and paste

Like I said though, this is tony's place and he knows who checks here and I dont want this site to get into any trouble, so whatever is his opinion goes


Quoting just relevant snippets from premium content I have no real problem with....but keep it very brief and ALWAYS be sure to provide a link where it came from (even if it is premium and people can't view it). Thanks.
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Re: BA chat

Postby Chiefroy » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:47 pm

Regarding our "slap hitter", as Tony reported back in October, Brantley suffered an ankle injury last season that hampered him the last two months. While still hitting .299/.358 in August, his overall batting numbers dropped from the pace he was on. With only 6 ABs for July, his SBs dropped as well.

M.B. touched up AA righties to the tune of .330/.397/.403 and fared quite well vs. lefties also, .286/.390/.381. Nice numbers for a leadoff guy, but when you add his 50 walks and only 27 Ks in 420 ABs + his nice SB total + nice defense, you get an everyday #1 in the order player, imho. I don't give a damn what position he plays. A player with great plate discipline who can handle lefties or righties and who allows Grady to move down in the order/drive in runs.... sounds good to me.

This is a big, athletic kid who should develop more power. But even if he doesn't hit 20-25 dingers a year, I'll be more than happy if he can continue his other numbers in AAA and eventually in Cleveland. Probably a Sept. '09 callup at best, but with a hot start combined with slow starts from LaPorta and Crowe, he MAY get first crack for The Looch's spot....unless of course double D actually comes to play this year.

Think Carl Crawford.....with fewer SBs and maybe not(?) the same defense, but with fewer Ks and better OBP.
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Re: BA chat

Postby dnosco » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:57 am

Chiefroy wrote:Regarding our "slap hitter", as Tony reported back in October, Brantley suffered an ankle injury last season that hampered him the last two months. While still hitting .299/.358 in August, his overall batting numbers dropped from the pace he was on. With only 6 ABs for July, his SBs dropped as well.

M.B. touched up AA righties to the tune of .330/.397/.403 and fared quite well vs. lefties also, .286/.390/.381. Nice numbers for a leadoff guy, but when you add his 50 walks and only 27 Ks in 420 ABs + his nice SB total + nice defense, you get an everyday #1 in the order player, imho. I don't give a damn what position he plays. A player with great plate discipline who can handle lefties or righties and who allows Grady to move down in the order/drive in runs.... sounds good to me.

This is a big, athletic kid who should develop more power. But even if he doesn't hit 20-25 dingers a year, I'll be more than happy if he can continue his other numbers in AAA and eventually in Cleveland. Probably a Sept. '09 callup at best, but with a hot start combined with slow starts from LaPorta and Crowe, he MAY get first crack for The Looch's spot....unless of course double D actually comes to play this year.

Think Carl Crawford.....with fewer SBs and maybe not(?) the same defense, but with fewer Ks and better OBP.


The problem with your statement to begin your post was that I looked at Brantley's stats in detail for the entire first month of the season BEFORE HE WAS INJURED and, as I reported in another thread, he IS a slap hitter. Considering that Brantley himself said the same thing how can you make that statement?

Plus, once again, an overestimation of his defense is made, this time by you. Up until 2008 he was considered a below average outfielder. If he has improved, that's great. Just don't try to sell us on "nice defense" because that has not been proven AT ALL yet.

Again, this time by you, the phrase "great plate disicipline" is used. For what seems like the millionth time, a guy who walks barely once every 10 PA DOES NOT have great plate discipline. Added to his low K rate, his walk rate screams great bat to ball ability (see hitter, slap) but not, and I repeat NOT great plate discipline. For great plate discipline see Weglarz, Nick.

As I said, I am willing to wait and see how he develops...if others would do the same thing and discontinue the overprojections of this guy, all of which have been refuted based on current statistical evidence.

However, if you want to continue this lack of evidence + belief system approach I have heard that Crowe has put on 25 pounds of muscle this off-season and is likely to hit 20-25 HR this year.

OK, the Crowe thing isn't true but if your first thought was, so what, he is the hitter he is, then that is my point.

If your first thought was, hey, great, that should really help his power, then my guess is that you aren't a real student of the mechanics of hitting and what it takes to drive the ball out of the park.

Guys who develop HR power usually are guys who have good gap power who learn to put backspin on the ball to get lift. How in the world can you say that about Brantley when you look at his pathetic extrabase hit total in 2008?

I know, I know, evidence be damned. Who cares about evidence. You know what you know and that is the truth as far as Brantley goes.

Me, I'll wait...... and not try to oversell the guy to help justify a trade.
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:11 am

Plate discipline isn't all about walks per PA. It's about getting on base and seeing the ball well. He makes good contact and doesn't strike out. That tells you Brantley sees the ball VERY well. If you batted Brantly 3rd, 4th, or 5th like Weglarz (which won't happen), then he'd walk as much if not more than Weglarz.

Also, you're wrong saying there's nothing showing that Brantley has improved defensively. Every scout that I've read that saw him play last year says he's improved. Even moved from LF to CF and handled it very well. That's a far cry from having to play 1B like the year before. Not a gold glover, but he has improved. Saying otherwise is just ignorance. He HAS played 'nice defense' this year in both LF and CF.


none of Crowe, LaPorta, or Brantley should crack the lineup taking Dellucci spot. Doesn't make much sense to leave them on the bench. Now, if you're saying that they take FRANCISCO'S spot in the lineup and bump him down, thus taking Dellucci's roster spot, that I can buy. But I'd rather let them all get at-bats at AAA. Neither Brantley nor LaPorta has played at AAA yet, and Crowe only has half a year there really. They need more time.
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Re: BA chat

Postby dnosco » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:32 am

Hermie,

No way Brantley walks as much as Weglarz if he hits in the middle of the lineup. As a matter of fact, he probably walks LESS. Pitchers would go right after a slap hitter with men on base, especially if the guy hitting behind him has power.

Regarding seeing the ball very well, I have already conceded that. However, if you look at his 2008 numbers you see a guy who just slaps at the ball and, because of his good bat control, can foul off tough pitches by just slapping them out of play.

Following up that point, plate discipline is LARGELY about walks per PA. I thought it was generally accepted that ML pitchers don't use anything but the edges of the plate. There is probably even an article or two somewhere that shows that as many as half good pitchers' pitches are actually balls (don't know, just guessing from listening to commentators over the years), it's just that they are so good that hitters don't take them. Plate discipline is laying off the balls and only swinging at strikes you can do something with, save fouling off the tough pitches that might be strikes when you are down in the count.

The problem that a middling walk rate in the minors for a slap hitter brings out is that he DOESN'T have great plate discipline or his walk rate would be higher. It could mean that pitchers go right after him because they know he will hurt them if they walk him but he can't hurt them that bad by swinging the bat.

And I don't think I ever said he hasn't improved defensively, I just said that the 'nice defense' is incorrect. As far as that improvement, Garko improved defensively, first at catcher, second at first base, doesn't mean, if you had your druthers that you would really want him playing defense at either position if you could avoid it, right?

Again, no need to debate this. I and everyone else has their opinions on this. Let's wait and see.
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Re: BA chat

Postby gotribe31 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:35 pm

A few quick points I'd like to throw out:

Power is usually the last "tool" to develop.
Plate discipline is about so much more than walks...its about selecting pitches to hit.
If his OBP starts with a .39 or higher, I don't give a damn if he doesn't hit a home run all year long.

Enough with the obsessing about where we get out power/production from...the point of the show is to put your best team on the field. If the power comes from CF/C rather than LF/1B, so be it. If the SB/OBP comes from LF, fine. Personally, I have never seen the guy play, so I can't comment intelligently on either his defense or whether or not he is a "slap" hitter. I can say I like his OBP and other #'s, and am excited to see if he can develop into a guy we will see at the top of our lineup for years to come.
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Re: BA chat

Postby dnosco » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:29 pm

gotribe31 wrote:A few quick points I'd like to throw out:

Power is usually the last "tool" to develop.
Plate discipline is about so much more than walks...its about selecting pitches to hit.
If his OBP starts with a .39 or higher, I don't give a damn if he doesn't hit a home run all year long.

Enough with the obsessing about where we get out power/production from...the point of the show is to put your best team on the field. If the power comes from CF/C rather than LF/1B, so be it. If the SB/OBP comes from LF, fine. Personally, I have never seen the guy play, so I can't comment intelligently on either his defense or whether or not he is a "slap" hitter. I can say I like his OBP and other #'s, and am excited to see if he can develop into a guy we will see at the top of our lineup for years to come.


In the entire AL less than 20 players had OBPs over .370, and most of them were power hitters.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/ ... =AL&y=2008

You could easily project a .350 OBP for him. With a similar slugging pct. what kind of player would that make him?

I won't argue the point about Grady offsetting Brantley. That is in the eye of the beholder. But to even hint that his OBP may start at .390 when about 7 guys in the entire AL had that number....let's be real here.
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Re: BA chat

Postby gotribe31 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:46 pm

His OBP last year in AA was .394. Not saying he will keep that up, but why would he regress to .350? Patience and power come with age.
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:07 pm

dnosco wrote:In the entire AL less than 20 players had OBPs over .370, and most of them were power hitters.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/ ... =AL&y=2008

You could easily project a .350 OBP for him. With a similar slugging pct. what kind of player would that make him?

I won't argue the point about Grady offsetting Brantley. That is in the eye of the beholder. But to even hint that his OBP may start at .390 when about 7 guys in the entire AL had that number....let's be real here.


Well if you believe that Brantley can become a Lofton-type player offensively (which I know you don't, but many do), then a .390 OBP isn't outrageous. On more than one occasion, Lofton had an OBP over .400 from the leadoff spot.

I can see Brantley doing that......then again, he could really struggle and be a .350 OBP guy.....but with a bit more power it'd still make him almost as good as Carl Crawford. He plays LF and only puts up a .340-350 OBP. He's got nice gap-power though....so the comparison isn't really there (you can kinda compare Crowe to Crawford though actually).

I agree, if Brantley is only putting up a .350 OBP and .350-.380 SLG, then he's a 4th OFer.....but .370 and .400-.420 from him would make him a top leadoff guy in the league.....we'll see if he can reach that.....


A guy to keep in mind a bit when looking at Brantley is Denard Span. Was a top 10 prospect for 3 years with the twins in his late-teen/early 20's. Then he fell off for a few years. Last year he jumped back on the scene. Most HRs he'd hit in the minors was 3 in any season (hit 3 in 2007 in 487 at-bats)....then last year hit 9 (3 in AAA, 6 in the MLs).

They really aren't the same type of player at all....but interesting to see the power come. Span turned 24 this year.....which happens to be the age that most doctors say is the age that most men are fully developed (both mind and body). Both are great all-around athletes though (Brantley was voted the best all-around athlete by BA in our system).....I can see Brantley developing enough power to be get by at the ML level between now and turning 24......


Crowe had his best year last year at 24 as well (nearly double his pro-career high HR number)....

Brantley will be 22 this year....23 in 2010. I expect in 2010 or 2011 to see him start to really increase his double and HR numbers.....

But again, it's definitely a wait and see with him.......
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Re: BA chat

Postby dnosco » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:38 pm

I don't know if I would characterize .350 OBP as "struggling" as league average is around .340. If he was struggling, given the kind of hitter he was, I would say .330 would be struggling and .350-.360 is what I would expect his career ML OBP to be, unless he gets pitched around which, unless he develops power, he won't. At that level with low power numbers, he WOULD be a 4th outfielder as some of the talking keyboards have already projected.

But I agree, let's wait and see.
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Re: BA chat

Postby dnosco » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:39 pm

BTW,

The other possible PTBNL Green is out for a while with injury so, while I am not a huge Brantley fan, I just became a bigger one than I was a few days ago!
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:26 pm

dnosco wrote:I don't know if I would characterize .350 OBP as "struggling" as league average is around .340. If he was struggling, given the kind of hitter he was, I would say .330 would be struggling and .350-.360 is what I would expect his career ML OBP to be, unless he gets pitched around which, unless he develops power, he won't. At that level with low power numbers, he WOULD be a 4th outfielder as some of the talking keyboards have already projected.

But I agree, let's wait and see.


It depends. .350 is struggling for a leadoff guy.....just because a lot of teams don't have a leadoff guy that can do that doesn't mean it isn't. Grady is about .370+ year in and year out. That is what Brantley should at least be at. If not, I'd rather keep Grady at leadoff.

ha, and I did agree, if his OBP drops that low he's just a 4th OFer....I see him becoming more than that and havng a higher one.....but as we've both said, could go either way.


lol, is it just me or did it seem like every player mentioned in the Brewers system was hurt or has gotten hurt since the CC trade? Cain was mentioned (though a long shot) and missed the end of the year. brantley was hurt when the trade went down....and now Green.....
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Re: BA chat

Postby jellis » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:50 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Plate discipline isn't all about walks per PA. It's about getting on base and seeing the ball well. He makes good contact and doesn't strike out. That tells you Brantley sees the ball VERY well. If you batted Brantly 3rd, 4th, or 5th like Weglarz (which won't happen), then he'd walk as much if not more than Weglarz.
.


That makes no sense, patience does not matter where you hit or hits behind you exhibit A would be sizemore, a good plate discipline would mean walks where ever you hit in the line up
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Re: BA chat

Postby Chiefroy » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:13 pm

dnosco, to clarify my post a bit:

first, nowhere did I try to pass off Brantley as any kind of slugger. but I did point out how his numbers dropped after his injury. he was on pace for both OBP and SLG% easily above .400. his "pathetic xtra base total" was due in part to missing nearly all of july and having his worst month of the year after his return.

second, if my use of "great plate discipline" is incorrect, I'll use Tony's words...."elite level approach at the plate". whatever the case, Brantley does not swing and miss many strikes thrown to him. perhaps he also swings and connects on balls out of the zone...or maybe pitchers just don't want to walk him. can't fault him for that. bottomline is he's not an easy out and he gets on base. I like those types, once again, regardless of their position.

third, I'm not trying to "oversell" or "overproject" this guy. my comparison to carl crawford may be unrealistic...but maybe not. of course the guy must still develop, but reaching crawford's OPS numbers doesn't seem such an unattainable feat to me.

fourth, regarding Brantley's "nice" defense and "power", I'll go back to Tony's article for a quote:

"Brantley is a well rounded player who possesses speed and solid defense with an above average bat," said a National League scout I spoke to earlier in the week. "He's athletic and can play at any of the outfield spots. Naturally, you can delve into his gene pool and that his bat is a strong tool. He projects open next year at Triple-A and is not far away from his major league debut. He should be a doubles type hitter as his power could develop along the way."

Here's a Brantley interview video for those who may have missed it:

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/media/ ... 1283779542
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Re: BA chat

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:18 am

jellis wrote:That makes no sense, patience does not matter where you hit or hits behind you exhibit A would be sizemore, a good plate discipline would mean walks where ever you hit in the line up


Plate discipline doens't matter where you hit.....never said it did so not sure why this was stated. I said the numbers of walks a guy gets can change depending on where he hits. Pitchers get too fine with their pitches and miss spots when they have several good, power guys in a row like in the heart of the order.

A good plate discipline DOES mean you'll walk no matter where you hit.....but you'll still walk more in different spots in the lineup. A pitcher will pitch you differently depending on where you hit.
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