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Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:51 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Hey what do you guys think about Suk-Min Yoon?? I would be nosing around for sure, looks like a reasonable amount of risk/reward if you ask me.


Can't hurt to give him a look...but he seems like a likely reliever in the Majors, not a starter, so upside isn't as high IMO. Had arm issues recently that cost him some velocity...maybe if he gets it back he could start.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:50 pm

Nyjer Morgan??? Why?
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:54 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Nyjer Morgan??? Why?


That's what I'm saying...the rumors before and this signing does not make sense unless they have something planned, and I think we're going to try to move Bourn and use the cash to extend Masterson, and if they can't work something out, they will become players in the Ubaldo bidding.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:42 am

criznit2009 wrote:Nyjer Morgan??? Why?


Minor league deal....so why not?

Tribe signed Hermida last winter, doesn't mean Morgan will ever see Cleveland.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby daingean » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:44 am

BrianM wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Nyjer Morgan??? Why?


That's what I'm saying...the rumors before and this signing does not make sense unless they have something planned, and I think we're going to try to move Bourn and use the cash to extend Masterson, and if they can't work something out, they will become players in the Ubaldo bidding.


it's a minor league deal......as the Tribe lost both Stubbs and Carrera, they may want another option in CF in case Bourn is traded or injured.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:17 pm

Nyjer Morgan was never a favorite of mine (evere), but sure -- why not bring him in on a minor league deal? Stack up the minor league deals and hope to get lucky!
I see the Mariners just designated Carlos Peguero...still seems like a decent lightning in a bottle gamble if you can get him on the cheap/for next to nothing.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:08 pm

Hope this is OK - ripped straight from www.mlbtraderumors.com. IMO he won't be the starter unless he has an amazing spring at 3B, but he is going to play there. How much? That's the million dollar (or whatever Chisenhall's salary actually is) question.

Carlos Santana Expects To Play Third For Indians
By Jeff Todd [January 20 at 9:06am CST]
MONDAY: In the "Around the Horn" section of his latest column, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports writes that despite Santana's comments, club officials will wait until Spring Training to make a definitive call on his position. The team still hasn't ruled out using Chisenhall at third base, according to Rosenthal.

FRIDAY: Carlos Santana has served as the club's primary backstop for the last three seasons, but says he is preparing to play at the hot corner in 2014, according to ESPNDeportes.com's Enrique Rojas (Spanish language link). Though Santana was known to be trying his hand at a return to third -- where he spent some time early in his professional career -- this report indicates a much more serious likelihood of a position shift.

As Santana explains (all translation errors mine), he is only preparing to play third at this point in time. "Those are the plans of the team at this moment," Santana said. Indicating that the club asked him to give third a try, Santana said he "took a month thinking about it before accepting."

Santana seemed destined to spend less time at the catcher position anyway next season, for several reasons. To begin with, the 27-year-old's bat is good enough to play anywhere on the diamond. Last year, he posted a .268/.377/.455 triple-slash, including twenty home runs, in 642 plate appearances. That was good for a 137 OPS+, a particularly impressive mark given that Santana labored behind the dish for 84 games.

And while any player can theoretically be more valuable while playing a defense-first position like catcher, Santana had increasingly struggled at the spot. Defensive Runs Saved panned Santana's work in 2013, and recent pitch framing metrics (e.g., here and here) have viewed him as a poor framer. There were good reasons for Cleveland to limit Santana's defensive impact, though of course third is hardly the easiest position. (And UZR has not looked kindly on Santana's 942 2/3 career innings at first, though he told Rojas that he never felt comfortable there.)

Most importantly, perhaps, is the emergence of Yan Gomes, who was picked up from the Blue Jays in a deal that has strongly favored the Indians to date. The 26-year-old's emergence last year played a big role in fueling the club's Wild Card run. He hit .294/.345/.481 in 322 plate appearances, splitting time at catcher with Santana. In just 88 games, Gomes was worth 3.7 fWAR and 4.0 rWAR, drawing positive reviews for his defensive work.

The news on Santana could have hot stove implications. For one, it may explain why the club has done little to push Lonnie Chisenhall outside of inking David Adams, who has just 152 big league plate appearances under his belt despite the fact that he will turn 27 in May. For what it is worth, Santana is a better hitter from the right side (.855 OPS vs. .794 OPS hitting lefty), though he'd surely find his bat at another position in the lineup if he were to platoon at third.

Of course, if Cleveland no longer plans to give Chisenhall regular at-bats, it raises the question why the team was so hesitant to part with him in a prospective Matt Garza trade deadline deal. And if Santana were to spend significant time at third, it could make the 25-year-old a candidate to be dealt. He was once a top-25 prospect, and his career .694 OPS has come in only 682 plate appearances over three MLB seasons.

If Santana is able to play a passable third, moreover, it could impact the fate of both he and Gomes. Spending less energy behind the dish, and more time in the lineup, could lead to bigger offensive numbers for Santana. He would make for quite an interesting multi-position player, given his outstanding bat, and would increase his stock as a trade piece or eventual free agent. (He is signed through 2016, plus the Indians hold an option for the following season.)

As for Gomes, the shifting of the club's prized young catcher off of the catching position would open up a world of opportunity. Gomes would presumably be looked upon as the catcher of the future in Cleveland. The Oliver and Steamer projection systems (via Fangraphs) both project him to keep hitting at better than league average, and view him as a three or four win player in a full-time role. Eligible for arbitration after the 2015 season, Gomes would have a chance to build real value through arbitration or as an extension candidate.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby daingean » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:48 pm

I like the experiment to move Carlos to third. I think his arm is wasted at 1B/DH and like the article says he's a "poor framer" as a catcher. I don't think a catcher can win many strikes for his pitcher but he can lose them. Now will he be good enough for third full time? Maybe but much of that possibility has to remain with "Who will the Indians DH?". If the DH puts up better offensive numbers than Chiz then we could see him there more. I still think it will be Chiz vs. righties with Carlos playing third against southpaws.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:01 am

daingean wrote:I like the experiment to move Carlos to third. I think his arm is wasted at 1B/DH and like the article says he's a "poor framer" as a catcher. I don't think a catcher can win many strikes for his pitcher but he can lose them. Now will he be good enough for third full time? Maybe but much of that possibility has to remain with "Who will the Indians DH?". If the DH puts up better offensive numbers than Chiz then we could see him there more. I still think it will be Chiz vs. righties with Carlos playing third against southpaws.


Agree with what you're saying here. Moving Santana to 3B is fine...but then who is your DH? Chisenhall or Aviles? Just play them at 3B then. Cooper or Giambi? maybe, but doubt either is viewed as an everyday option. Raburn? Maybe against righties (as he'll be in RF against lefties)....but do you really want Raburn playing every single day?

Another move has to come for Santana to make sense at 3B full-time. Hell, even in a platoon with Chiz another move has to be coming IMO for Santana at 3B to make sense. Chiz and Santana platooning at 3B makes some sense sure...but again, who is DHing then against lefties in place of Santana?

Maybe you grab a catcher that can hit lefties....and then platoon him and Cooper/Giambi at DH (if you really want Chiz in AAA or is traded). Can DH Gomes against lefties, give him some rest. I still think a guy like Jeff Baker makes a lot of sense...though he can play 3B himself so not sure you'd need Santana at 3B (though could DH Baker I guess).

Maybe you let a guy like Cooper hit against lefties, or Phelps/Aviles (though not sure why you'd DH either of them over Santana). Ideally you'd only need someone for half a year, maybe less. Hope that someone can hold down the DH vs lefty spot til Jesus Aguliar is ready to DH at some point over the summer maybe...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:31 pm

daingean wrote:I like the experiment to move Carlos to third. I think his arm is wasted at 1B/DH and like the article says he's a "poor framer" as a catcher. I don't think a catcher can win many strikes for his pitcher but he can lose them. Now will he be good enough for third full time? Maybe but much of that possibility has to remain with "Who will the Indians DH?". If the DH puts up better offensive numbers than Chiz then we could see him there more. I still think it will be Chiz vs. righties with Carlos playing third against southpaws.


It's a solid use of an asset.. The potential move to 3B gives Tito one more option.. one more opportunity to use Carlos' bat.. More flexibility..

BTW.. you can watch the games w/ live streaming at http://www.letsgotribe.com/2014/1/20/53 ... ntana-news

The second game of the championship series is tonight at 5:05 pm eastern The results of the first game can be found at ATF reports..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:20 pm

According to ESPN rumors (insider)

"As for Jimenez, there is buzz that he could sign a one-year balloon contract to stay in Cleveland in hopes he could secure a big deal after the season."

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/mlb/rum ... t?id=11842
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:54 pm

BrianM wrote:According to ESPN rumors (insider)

"As for Jimenez, there is buzz that he could sign a one-year balloon contract to stay in Cleveland in hopes he could secure a big deal after the season."

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/mlb/rum ... t?id=11842


On the face of it.. IMHO, it would be money well spent.. This would give the Indians a deep and talented SP staff and would bolster the confidence of the ticket buying public (or, at least it could/should)...

The issue comes with the budget.. Mr Dolan has shown very little appetite to go into his pocket for the Indians. He's all for spending whatever the club generates. If the four arbitration cases are settled in the players favor (Masterson, Tomlin, Brantley and Vinnie.. and assuming about 7 or 8 minimum contracts) the Indians would stand at about $ 82 - $ 83 MM before Ubaldo's salary. With a pillow contract, the Indians may go into the 2014 season with a more urgent need for a solid/winning start.. A good start could/should generate some revenues to offset whatever Ubaldo receives as a contract..be it a one year or an extended version. Ubaldo may be willing to do what Bourn and Swisher did.. take a back loaded deal with a more club friendly first year if the Indians were to add a fourth year to the deal..i.e. instead of a three year deal... a four year. If not, there is always a trade or two that may lessen the financial burden come July. All the Indians need to do is win early.. Then there shouldn't be a problem.

Easier said than done...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:38 pm

Bringing back Ubaldo on a 1-2 year deal? Yes... 3? - hmm - this must be a really good deal. 4? NO. I would rather chase Garza on a multi-year typedeal and hope to add a nice draft pick this year. But I don't see how there is anyway the tribe is in on any top FA's (U and Garza included) looking for mega-deals.


Now if you made a solid offer to Ubaldo.. I think it would take 2 years minimum, and if 1 year is possible i am beyond interested. But a 2 year like 14 mil this year and 15+ YOUR option next year.. Or 16 this year and ? next might be enough.

Now before I get criticized about money..... The tribe did extend a extend a 14+million Q.A after he declined his 8 million dollar option..

I have been cold then suddenly hot on Ubaldo when you take his complete tenure in Cleveland into consideration. We ultimately got what we wanted out of him when we traded for him so it worked out, but and this is yet another reason Garza appeals more to me if you're throwing around some moolah. Old Ubaldo stinks! I am not suggesting that he will regress to those abysmal levels, but anything's possible. Personally, I think he is on track for a great season and depending on the deal, it would be great to have him back.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:54 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Bringing back Ubaldo on a 1-2 year deal? Yes... 3? - hmm - this must be a really good deal. 4? NO. I would rather chase Garza on a multi-year typedeal and hope to add a nice draft pick this year. But I don't see how there is anyway the tribe is in on any top FA's (U and Garza included) looking for mega-deals.


Now if you made a solid offer to Ubaldo.. I think it would take 2 years minimum, and if 1 year is possible i am beyond interested. But a 2 year like 14 mil this year and 15+ YOUR option next year.. Or 16 this year and ? next might be enough.

Now before I get criticized about money..... The tribe did extend a extend a 14+million Q.A after he declined his 8 million dollar option..

I have been cold then suddenly hot on Ubaldo when you take his complete tenure in Cleveland into consideration. We ultimately got what we wanted out of him when we traded for him so it worked out, but and this is yet another reason Garza appeals more to me if you're throwing around some moolah. Old Ubaldo stinks! I am not suggesting that he will regress to those abysmal levels, but anything's possible. Personally, I think he is on track for a great season and depending on the deal, it would be great to have him back.


Something to keep in mind with regards to Garza...

Only once in his career has only two seasons with an fWAR of at least 3.0 (3.2 in 2008, 4.9 in 2011). Ubaldo...has two seasons where he has NOT had at least a 3.0 fWAR....one being his 2007 rookie season when he only threw 82 innings and the other being 2012. Over the past 2 seasons Ubaldo has a 3.3 fWAR...over the past 2 seasons Garza has a 3.3 fWAR.

We all can agree Ubaldo is not the same pitcher he was in 2009-2010...but think it's also fair to say Garza isn't as good as he was in 2011. I think an easy case can be made Ubaldo is the better pitcher...and one with less risk. Garza has only managed 259 innings the last two seasons. Ubaldo has pitched 359.1 innings...over 100 more innings the last two years.

I wouldn't mind signing Garza but I think it's questionable whether he's worth more than Ubaldo or less of a risk. Honestly, I think a good case can be made Garza isn't even worth Ricky Nolasco or Edwin Jackson money. Consider both were better the 3 years prior to signing (per fWAR) and both were way more durable. Sure you could argue the only reason either was better (and Ubaldo) than Garza was because he threw so few innings...but not sure that helps the case in signing him long-term. Again, wouldn't mind signing Garza at all...but only for 3 years and not even for $40M.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:27 pm

Matt Garza to the Brewers. 4 years, $52M.

Tad high IMO but not terrible. Think 4 years is a risk given his health the last two years, and don't think Miller Park is a great fit but all in all, solid signing for the Brewers who really could use another pitcher. Makes the NL Central even more interesting....could have 4 teams in the mix (poor Cubbies).
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:46 pm

Garza signing struck me as a relative deal in this free agent market, as he had no draft pick compensation attached. This makes me think that Santana and Ubaldo will be hard pressed to get such a contract, but who knows? I would not want the Indians in on any such deal ( 4years/13+mil).... Rather see them devote those resources towards a Masterson extension.

Like the Aardsma add...throw him into the minor league contract mix!
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:14 pm

El Em wrote:Garza signing struck me as a relative deal in this free agent market, as he had no draft pick compensation attached. This makes me think that Santana and Ubaldo will be hard pressed to get such a contract, but who knows? I would not want the Indians in on any such deal ( 4years/13+mil).... Rather see them devote those resources towards a Masterson extension.

Like the Aardsma add...throw him into the minor league contract mix!


Agree with you on Aardsma.. Nothing ventured.. nothing gained.. good depth..

The Garza deal.. I'm just not sure.. The health issues last year.. kept his production down. When he did return he really didn't have a great year.. but he is a proven SP.. Any other off season, and he'd be looking at a one year "make good" type contract. With the crazy length of contracts, he got the longest deal I thought he could have imagined. The dollar value was pretty good for him as well. If Garza didn't have the health issues, he'd be getting a contract like the one Ervin Santana was asking for $ 50 - $ 100 MM... Ubaldo, being healthy.. taking the ball every five days.. should make his contract value higher.. Being a horse has its value.. The attachment of the draft choice, should make Ubaldo's salary lower. If Toronto does something odd (acquire Ubaldo.. instead of learning from their foray onto the dark side of over spending), then Ubaldo could end up there.. Otherwise.. the Indians could be the front runner for a return...

We shall see..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:22 pm

Would you be interested in Ubaldo at 3/33? I guess somewhere in the equation we would acknowledge we are not getting another pick/more pool money.
I guess I would be down for that deal, but not at the expense of a Masterson extension. If the Tribe has deemed such an extension improbable or not something they will pursue, it would make a great deal of sense to bring back the U on that sort of deal.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:16 pm

El Em wrote:Would you be interested in Ubaldo at 3/33? I guess somewhere in the equation we would acknowledge we are not getting another pick/more pool money.
I guess I would be down for that deal, but not at the expense of a Masterson extension. If the Tribe has deemed such an extension improbable or not something they will pursue, it would make a great deal of sense to bring back the U on that sort of deal.


TBH.. I would be on board for the same price Garza signed for. It may sound like a lot, but, not in today's baseball world, it's really not. The Ubaldo that pitched so well through 32 starts last year.. just kept getting better and better. A four year deal fits with the Indians contract length rule of thumb.

AND, there is no saving for Masterson or a possible extension. The Indians can only concern themselves with what they can do, now! FWIW & IMHO, if the Indians sign Ubaldo to the same deal Garza got, it improves the chances Masterson stays here. Masterson, Ubaldo, Salazar, Kluber, Bauer, Carrasco, McAllister, Tomlin etc etc etc.. makes a very strong starting pitching rotation... for years. 8 Deep.. good to go..

The Indians will only lose Aviles and Asdrubal next year. It's about 14 - 15 MM in salary. With what Masterson should be getting this year (11.MM), there's enough there to get the Indians to about 92 - 96 MM after benefits and minor league min guys are taken care of. That's at least 5 % above where I thought they'd come in at..

Four years.. is a short deal.. today..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby daingean » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:27 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
El Em wrote:Would you be interested in Ubaldo at 3/33? I guess somewhere in the equation we would acknowledge we are not getting another pick/more pool money.
I guess I would be down for that deal, but not at the expense of a Masterson extension. If the Tribe has deemed such an extension improbable or not something they will pursue, it would make a great deal of sense to bring back the U on that sort of deal.


TBH.. I would be on board for the same price Garza signed for. It may sound like a lot, but, not in today's baseball world, it's really not. The Ubaldo that pitched so well through 32 starts last year.. just kept getting better and better. A four year deal fits with the Indians contract length rule of thumb.

AND, there is no saving for Masterson or a possible extension. The Indians can only concern themselves with what they can do, now! FWIW & IMHO, if the Indians sign Ubaldo to the same deal Garza got, it improves the chances Masterson stays here. Masterson, Ubaldo, Salazar, Kluber, Bauer, Carrasco, McAllister, Tomlin etc etc etc.. makes a very strong starting pitching rotation... for years. 8 Deep.. good to go..

The Indians will only lose Aviles and Asdrubal next year. It's about 14 - 15 MM in salary. With what Masterson should be getting this year (11.MM), there's enough there to get the Indians to about 92 - 96 MM after benefits and minor league min guys are taken care of. That's at least 5 % above where I thought they'd come in at..

Four years.. is a short deal.. today..


I agree on U. This team doesn't develop pitchers well so we'd be best served to extend our good pitchers when we can and develop position players (because we do that better) with the idea of trading them for value before they leave for FA.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:03 pm

El Em wrote:Would you be interested in Ubaldo at 3/33? I guess somewhere in the equation we would acknowledge we are not getting another pick/more pool money.
I guess I would be down for that deal, but not at the expense of a Masterson extension. If the Tribe has deemed such an extension improbable or not something they will pursue, it would make a great deal of sense to bring back the U on that sort of deal.


I'd be willing to go higher than that personally. Think 3yr/$40M is doable/reasonable for Ubaldo (though I'd obviously prefer to pay less). Could add an option on to it with buyout to help ease some of the upfront money, and could backload it like they did with others (though that can make things dicey in 2015/2016). In theory could get Ubaldo on that deal and into a payroll under $90M for 2014 without dealing anyone (though it'll be tight).

A 3yr/$40M deal with option could break down like this:

2014: $8.5M
2015: $14.5M
2016: $14.5M
2017: $15M option w/ $2.5M buyout

Would gurantee him $40M (more than Lincecum got), average salary for the 3 years would be over $13M (more than Garza got). If the option vests (or is picked up by Cleveland) he'd end up with 4yrs/$52.5M...more than Garza got.

$8.5M added to 2014 puts the Tribe somewhere between $88M and $92M depending on the last arby cases. $92M would probably be too much...but $88-89M may be at least in the realm of possible.

Again, could can make things tough for 2015/2016 even without extending Masterson, but hard to fully say with tons of potential arby guys (Kipnis, Chisenhall, Brantley, Axford, and like half the bullpen). Should still be doable (especially if a guy like Bourn is dealt)...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:04 pm

Let me be one of the first to say.. the experiment (carlos Santana to 3B) is going to be a raging success.. incredible insight on whoever's idea this was... I watched the last few games on streaming live.. he's got the skills needed to be a more than effective hot corner stalwart for the Indians..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:22 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:

AND, there is no saving for Masterson or a possible extension. The Indians can only concern themselves with what they can do, now! FWIW & IMHO, if the Indians sign Ubaldo to the same deal Garza got, it improves the chances Masterson stays here. Masterson, Ubaldo, Salazar, Kluber, Bauer, Carrasco, McAllister, Tomlin etc etc etc.. makes a very strong starting pitching rotation... for years. 8 Deep.. good to go..



I think the Masterson extension is here and upon us -- not a matter of saving up for it...if it does not get done before the end of the arby process, I do not believe it will happen. I wish I knew what the Indians can and will spend this year and into the next few, but like most all of us, I can only guess.
If we have the money for "just one", I would much rather we invest our money on a Masterson extension, which would probably be no more (annually) than these possible free agent deals, but I am betting it returns better value. If we have the loot to do more -- sure, let's sign U...no doubt, it certainly makes the team more attractive (etc), for Masty/others wanting to stay longer term.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:44 pm

Indians have signed INF Elliott Johnson to a minor league deal. He was dfa'd by the Royals last year and picked up by the Braves.
Supposedly good speed, good glove.
The bat; not so good.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:00 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Indians have signed INF Elliott Johnson to a minor league deal. He was dfa'd by the Royals last year and picked up by the Braves.
Supposedly good speed, good glove.
The bat; not so good.


Really like this signing. Actually prefer him to Carroll at this stage. Solid speed/baserunning and solid glove. Can handle short easily....nice depth option in case of injury...or a trade.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:45 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:Indians have signed INF Elliott Johnson to a minor league deal. He was dfa'd by the Royals last year and picked up by the Braves.
Supposedly good speed, good glove.
The bat; not so good.


Really like this signing. Actually prefer him to Carroll at this stage. Solid speed/baserunning and solid glove. Can handle short easily....nice depth option in case of injury...or a trade.
Yes..he's a good addition. perhaps a duplicate of Jose Ramirez? give or take?
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:54 pm

AJ Burnett will reportedly pitch in 2014....and is apparently open to any team...


Tribe did try to get him from the Yanks a couple years ago. Been very good in Pittsburgh the last two years....even at his age and coming back to the AL, I think he could be a replacement for Ubaldo. Can eat innings and K-rate well over a batter an inning suggests he can still bring it.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:04 pm

Happy to have Johnson in the mi l contract mix, as he brings some tools and flexibility, but hard to see how he squeezes in...that said, injuries, etc. frequently present opportunities, so it is good to have viable options.

I'd love to bring in Burnett, though I assume he'll be popular with no draft pick loss attached...does 1/10 get it done? I assume he'll have numerous suitors at that number.

I'm sure the Indians will do their best to wait out the market and see what falls to them...being an Indians fan, I know we have to get a little luck.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:29 pm

BTW.. Cubbie fans are losing their minds over the Keith Law top 100 prospect rankings.. having four SS's ranked above the cubs' fans beloved Javier Baez seems to be the nexus of their mindlessness. It's kind of fun knee and sad at the same time...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:52 pm

Bruce Chen back to the Royals on a 1yr/$4.25M deal and option. Very solid signing IMO...just making what has already been a great offseason even better for the Royals. Tigers are probably still the favorites despite their odd offseason...but the Royals have really improved. If Santana were to end up back there somehow....
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:57 pm

Jeff Baker has signed a 2yr/$3.7M deal with the Marlins. A guy I was really hoping to see the Indians persue. Career against lefties: .298/.353/.522/.875....last year had an OPS well north of 1.000 against them. Would have been a good platoon option with Chiz, or could have DH against lefties if Santana was manning 3B. Good move IMO by the Marlins even with two years.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:59 pm

Reports are saying the Braves and Freddie Freeman have agreed on an extension...for possibly 8 years and $125M!! Holy cow.

Guy did have a great year and is young with big time potential, but damn. Hopefully Kipnis isn't paying attention....
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:05 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Reports are saying the Braves and Freddie Freeman have agreed on an extension...for possibly 8 years and $125M!! Holy cow.

Guy did have a great year and is young with big time potential, but damn. Hopefully Kipnis isn't paying attention....


I think McCutchen's deal will be closer to what Kipnis gets than Freeman.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:05 pm

Nice read from LGT

..There seems to be a base-line assumption around the Cleveland sports scene that Larry Dolan and his son Paul are brutally bad owners, only made to look reasonable in comparison to the debacles elsewhere in town. It is not a new phenomenon, the Dolans have been a punching bag for local fans (including some readers of this site) for years, and honestly, I don't get it.

I mean, I understand the frustration when we have to ship out or best players before they reach free agency or when we pass on the big name free agents. But what I don't understand is all the people who look past the overwhelming evidence that Dolan is an excellent owner.

To me, the owner of any operation has three jobs:

1.Provide whatever value you can, while knowing your own limits
2.Hire the best people you can to run your organization
3.Stay out of their way.

That's it. And it works not just in sports, but any business. If you own a restaurant, but can't cook, hire a great chef, and get out of their way. If you own a magazine but can't write, hire a great editor, let him or her hire the best writers, and get out of their way.

From what I can tell, the Dolans sign off on the budget (and we will get back to the budget in a minute), then give Mark Shapiro, Chris Antonetti, and the front office those two have assembled free reign to run the baseball side of the organization as they see fit. Shapiro and Antonetti are among the best in baseball at their jobs, by all accounts highly regarded within the industry. There are reasons we heard for years that Antonetti was a candidate for other jobs, before he succeeded Shapiro.

"But the Dolans are so cheap! You can't just brush off the budget!"

This has been the narrative long enough that the Nick Swisher and Michael Bourn signings feel like aberrations, but there is a lot of evidence the fans are inventing an issue here. If Shapiro thought Dolan was not providing him with the support to build a winner, don't you think he would have taken another job? Would Chris Antonetti have patiently waited his turn when, by all accounts, other organizations were ready to offer him a job?

Along the same lines, do you really think Terry Francona would have left the comfy confines of retirement just for a team stymied by stingy ownership? You have to believe Shapiro, Antonetti, and Francona all believe Dolan is doing the right things.

In baseball's economic environment, Dolan has done almost everything right. How many of you saw this yesterday?That's Baseball America telling us the Indians were 4th in international spending in 2013. In the international market, good scouting, recruiting, and quick movements can turn a hefty profit on a relatively small investment.

In the meantime, the Dolans get blasted for not buying up free agents, but they cannot possibly be expected to outspend the Dodgers or Yankees or Red Sox. Besides, any baseball economist can tell you that there is no worse return on an investment than a free agent. When you sign a free agent, you are usually just hoping the first years are good enough to make up for the last years, which are probably going to be a huge waste of money. The Dolans have hired smart people, enabled them to find talent, provided the cash to sign young players to long-term deals, and stayed out of the public spotlight while the front office does its job.

Fans think they want the deep pockets of the Steinbrenners running the team, but that seemingly unlimited cash flow comes not from a family but from a city and a media market. If you want the Indians to spend like that, just wait for Cleveland to surpass New York's population, or for the team to move to a bigger market, or for baseball to make fundamental changes in its economic system.

Since Dolan took over the team in 2000, the Indians have developed and traded for some terrific young talent (Victor Martinez, Carlos Santana, Grady Sizemore, Jason Kipnis, Asdrubal Cabrera, CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, and more). The team has finished first or second 6 times and have never finished in last. The organization has had the kind of stability the Browns and Cavs can only dream of.

And honestly, I am not sure what more you can ask of an owner.

Good read.. hope you enjoyed it.. the link is provided to give you a chance to read some of the more than 200 comments following the story.. Some are worthy of being read and applauded.. others.. not so much...

Thoughts?...

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2014/2/5/...ians-ownership
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:42 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Nice read from LGT

..There seems to be a base-line assumption around the Cleveland sports scene that Larry Dolan and his son Paul are brutally bad owners, only made to look reasonable in comparison to the debacles elsewhere in town. It is not a new phenomenon, the Dolans have been a punching bag for local fans (including some readers of this site) for years, and honestly, I don't get it.

I mean, I understand the frustration when we have to ship out or best players before they reach free agency or when we pass on the big name free agents. But what I don't understand is all the people who look past the overwhelming evidence that Dolan is an excellent owner.

To me, the owner of any operation has three jobs:

1.Provide whatever value you can, while knowing your own limits
2.Hire the best people you can to run your organization
3.Stay out of their way.

That's it. And it works not just in sports, but any business. If you own a restaurant, but can't cook, hire a great chef, and get out of their way. If you own a magazine but can't write, hire a great editor, let him or her hire the best writers, and get out of their way.

From what I can tell, the Dolans sign off on the budget (and we will get back to the budget in a minute), then give Mark Shapiro, Chris Antonetti, and the front office those two have assembled free reign to run the baseball side of the organization as they see fit. Shapiro and Antonetti are among the best in baseball at their jobs, by all accounts highly regarded within the industry. There are reasons we heard for years that Antonetti was a candidate for other jobs, before he succeeded Shapiro.

"But the Dolans are so cheap! You can't just brush off the budget!"

This has been the narrative long enough that the Nick Swisher and Michael Bourn signings feel like aberrations, but there is a lot of evidence the fans are inventing an issue here. If Shapiro thought Dolan was not providing him with the support to build a winner, don't you think he would have taken another job? Would Chris Antonetti have patiently waited his turn when, by all accounts, other organizations were ready to offer him a job?

Along the same lines, do you really think Terry Francona would have left the comfy confines of retirement just for a team stymied by stingy ownership? You have to believe Shapiro, Antonetti, and Francona all believe Dolan is doing the right things.

In baseball's economic environment, Dolan has done almost everything right. How many of you saw this yesterday?That's Baseball America telling us the Indians were 4th in international spending in 2013. In the international market, good scouting, recruiting, and quick movements can turn a hefty profit on a relatively small investment.

In the meantime, the Dolans get blasted for not buying up free agents, but they cannot possibly be expected to outspend the Dodgers or Yankees or Red Sox. Besides, any baseball economist can tell you that there is no worse return on an investment than a free agent. When you sign a free agent, you are usually just hoping the first years are good enough to make up for the last years, which are probably going to be a huge waste of money. The Dolans have hired smart people, enabled them to find talent, provided the cash to sign young players to long-term deals, and stayed out of the public spotlight while the front office does its job.

Fans think they want the deep pockets of the Steinbrenners running the team, but that seemingly unlimited cash flow comes not from a family but from a city and a media market. If you want the Indians to spend like that, just wait for Cleveland to surpass New York's population, or for the team to move to a bigger market, or for baseball to make fundamental changes in its economic system.

Since Dolan took over the team in 2000, the Indians have developed and traded for some terrific young talent (Victor Martinez, Carlos Santana, Grady Sizemore, Jason Kipnis, Asdrubal Cabrera, CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, and more). The team has finished first or second 6 times and have never finished in last. The organization has had the kind of stability the Browns and Cavs can only dream of.

And honestly, I am not sure what more you can ask of an owner.

Good read.. hope you enjoyed it.. the link is provided to give you a chance to read some of the more than 200 comments following the story.. Some are worthy of being read and applauded.. others.. not so much...

Thoughts?...

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2014/2/5/...ians-ownership


I actually agree with most of it. Good find!
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:11 am

I agree. I have never questioned Dolan as an owner. He showed last year that if the opportunity does arise, he would be willing to open his pockets if it was a safe, or safe-ish investment.

Really agree about the Shapiro/Antonetti part. Shapiro is, without a doubt, one of the best in the business. Antonetti has done a great job since his promotion, but I have to believe Shapiro still plays a major role in most of the general manager duties.

We weren't terribly successful during Shapiro's tenure as GM, but I think that had more to do with bad luck than anything. Nobody executed more lop sided trades during his time as GM, and he was able to build competitive rosters just about every year despite having a limited payroll and having very little success in the draft.

Here is a list of some of the more significant Shapiro trades

2001
Alomar for Lawton/Escobar (1, 18)/Traber (8)

2002
Finley for Crisp
Branyan for Broussard (6)
Shuey for Francisco Cruceta/Ricardo Rodriguez (1, 69)/Mulholland
Colon/Drew for Lee/Sizemore (3)/Phillips (1, 20)
Rincon for Marshall McDougall
Dreese/Diaz for Hafner (41)

2003
Ricardo Rod/Spencer for Ludwick (7)

2004
McDonald for Mastny
Rhodes for Lawton
Bradley for Gutierrez (3, 31)/Andrew Brown

2006
Barfield for Brown/Kouzmanoff
Phillips for Stevens
Crisp/Riske/Bard for Marte (1, 14)/Mota/Shoppach (7)
Wickman for Max Ramirez
E Perez for ACab (6)
Broussard for Choo (7)

2007
M Ramirez for Lofton

2008
Gutierrez for Smith/Valbuena
Archer for Derosa
Blake for Meloan (8)/Santana (1*, 26*)
Sabathia for Laporta (1, 23)/Bryson/Brantley

2009
Shoppach for Talbot
Derosa for Perez (3, 91)/Todd (4)
Garko for Barnes (9)
VMart for Masterson/Hagadone (3, 44)/Price
Lee/Francisco for Knapp (10, 64*)/Carrasco (2, 52)/Donald (4, 69)/Marson (3, 66)

2010
Branyan for Carrera
Westbrook for Kluber
Wood for Shive/Cusisk
Kearns for McAllister (5)
Peralta for Soto

The players number in parenthesis is his prospect ranking prior to the start of the season with his former team. The second number is their top 100 ranking. A couple rankings have asterisks because it was their ranking the following season, but I thought it was relevant. Not all the rankings are accurate seeing that many players were traded midseason and had already fallen in the eyes of scouts, but I don't think it effects my opinion.

If you look at these trades without knowing the result, there is not one stinker in the bunch. In today's market, teams seem to value their prospects a little more than they did even just 5 years ago, but it is still incredibly impressive Shapiro was able to nab so many of teams top ten prospects and so many top 100 prospects when today someone like Zack Greinke could only net one top 100 guy (Segura 55). Many people see the Sabathia and Lee trades as poor trades, but at the time, we were probably getting fair value for CC considering he was a 2.5 month rental, and the Lee deal featured 4 quality players, 2 of whom had the upside of #1 starters. The Alomar deal was a dud, but the value at the time was probably fair, and the VMart deal was actually a steal considering he was also a rental and we acquired our #1 pitcher in exchange. Shapiro's genius really came out in the Finley, Colon, Shuey, Dreese, Bradley, Crisp, Broussard, Perez, Blake, DeRosa, Westbrook, and Kearns Deals. Nobody in baseball acquired as much talent as the Shapiro did while giving up so little in return.

Shapiro definitely put us in a great position to build a possible dynasty team like the RSox, Cardinals, and now the Rays have done, but some things really did not go in his favor. Guys who are top 25 prospects don't always work out as we know, but they generally have all-star upside, and more often than not turn into at least above replacement level regulars. The failures of Phillips (He obviously turned out okay, but I don't blame anyone for trading him), Marte, and Laporta set this team back so many years. They were all supposed to be cornerstones of our franchise, yet never developed to even average regulars with our club. If these 3 would have performed like many people thought they would, they could have played massive roles in the '06, '08-'10 teams that failed to perform and could have been used in trades that could have sent our farm system into the top 10 once again. It also did not help that guys like Ricardo Rodriguez (Remember when he beaned Randall Simon right after someone broke up his no hit bid?), Knapp, Donald, and Marson flamed out, and guys like Gutierrez and Ludwick failed to develop during their time with us.

Along with the failure of many prospects, injuries and inconsistent performance really hurt Shapiro's chances of having sustained success. Hafner getting hurt in 2006 didn't help our chances down the stretch, but I'm actually shocked that team didn't win 80 games. Cliff Lee's presence in the 2007 season could have been the missing piece to our first world series title in ages. In 2008, major injuries to VMart and Hafner killed us and Fausto significantly regressed. 2009 Saw Hafner and Sizemore miss more than 35% of the season, while Peralta significantly regressed and Fausto just sucked. 2010 was a bit of a rebuild year, but Sizemore basically missing the entire year was a bad sign for things to come.

I can't neglect Shapiro's FA signings (or lack of) but our farm system was so stacked that it made sense to not want to invest in high priced free agents when cheaper, long term solutions with tons of upside were ML ready.

So in conclusion, Shapiro was basically unlucky. He made brilliant trades to set us up for success, but nothing really went his way during the last three years of his tenure as GM. 2008-2010 should have been a time when Phillips was manning 2nd and entering his last couple years as an Indian (probably would have signed extension that bought out 1 or 2 FA years), while Marte and Laporta were handling the corners and entering their prime years. Lee probably would have remained an Indian throughout his contract, and could have anchored our pitching staff. You can't blame Shapiro for the Sizemore, VMart, and Hafner injuries, and he certainly would not have been able to foresee the collapses by Carmona and Peralta.

It's actually kind of sad when you put it in perspective. Shapiro did everything right, but things just refuse to go our way in Cleveland. We could be just like the Ray's and A's...Constantly moving great players before they reach FA and always having our farm system stocked, we just don't have enough trade-able commodities due to injury, regression, and straight up failures.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:43 pm

Vinnie loses his arb hearing.. only gets to double his salary, not triple.. <shrugs>
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:45 am

A.Zajac wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Reports are saying the Braves and Freddie Freeman have agreed on an extension...for possibly 8 years and $125M!! Holy cow.

Guy did have a great year and is young with big time potential, but damn. Hopefully Kipnis isn't paying attention....


I think McCutchen's deal will be closer to what Kipnis gets than Freeman.


Not sure he'll get that even but I'd do it.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:16 pm

Glad to see the Indians reach a 4-year extension deal with Michael Brantley. He's an excellent player that plays the game smart. A good hitter, baserunner and defender. While he may not be an all-star, he is very steady and flexible.
The extension may allow the Indians to do more long range planning.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:39 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Glad to see the Indians reach a 4-year extension deal with Michael Brantley. He's an excellent player that plays the game smart. A good hitter, baserunner and defender. While he may not be an all-star, he is very steady and flexible.
The extension may allow the Indians to do more long range planning.

That's a good way of summarizing Brantley's game.. "smart".. for a four year contract plus a club option for a reasonable (by MLB standards) price..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:28 am

I love the Brantley deal and i am pretty damn hard to please most of the time lol... Good move. As of now we have our outfield locked in for 2 years - including back-ups/platoon guys.. Next year will be starting pitching...

A couple of other notes.. Masterson will win his arby case. Considering the market, I would be very shocked if the indians win. Pestano was a lock to lose in my opinion. Maholm looks like a great pick up for the Dodgers - and who wouldn't love that contract? If he maxes it out... He will have earned pure and simple..

As of now, I think barring a trade we pretty much have our 2014 Indians. Think Carlos Carrasco is our 5th started unless he is hurt or his ST is beyond abysmal.

Quick line up
1B. Swisher
2B Kipnis
3B. Chiz/Santana/Aviles/Adams - Chiz could be the only "regular" who might not be one when the season starts
SS. Acab
C. Gomes/Santana - though it seems as though Cleveland has is more than prepared in regards to the "back-up" catcher role. Also Gomes is stil a bit of a wild card a this point.. I think he is the goods but it would be foolish not to have a plan C.
RF. Raburn/Murphy
CF. Bourn
LF. Brantley

SP. Masterson, Salazaar, Kluber, McAllister, Carrasco - Marcum gets the 5th spot if Carrasco can't hol it down or if there is an injury, etc. Tomlin/Bauer get 2nd crack

RP - lots but "newbies" include Lee, Outman and Axford.

And no I didn't just rip this from Tony's piece.lol. Its just that he has taught me well :biggrin :biggrin
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:08 pm

The only problem I have with the Brantley deal is how much money he makes in the last year of his deal... It's not incredibly backloaded, but $7.5 million for him in one year? That's a little steep.. Regardless, I would make it priority one to extend Kipnis now. Get your young core locked up. Unlike years where we had to "rebuild" if we can lock up our young core for a while PLUS add a few prospects in to the mix, I like our chances....

Brantley through 2017 plus an option for 2018. ($25 million)
Santana through 2016 plus an option for 2017. ($21 million)
Gomes: FA in 2019
Kipnis: FA in 2018
Allen: FA in 2019
Salazar: FA in 2020
Shaw: FA in 2018
McAllister: FA in 2018
Kluber: FA in 2019

Then you have Lindor coming up with Naquin, Crockett, CC Lee... Believe it or not, I really like how this team is structured heading forward.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:28 pm

A.Zajac wrote:The only problem I have with the Brantley deal is how much money he makes in the last year of his deal... It's not incredibly backloaded, but $7.5 million for him in one year? That's a little steep.. Regardless, I would make it priority one to extend Kipnis now.



I'm torn on the Brantley deal. I actually don't think $7.5M is bad for Brantley though in one year. The last 3 years he's been "worth" $6.0M, $12.0M, and $8.5M. Don't think it's crazy to think he'll be at least a 1.5 win guy then and worth around $7.5M...and hopefully improves and is a 2-3 win player throughout the course of this deal. Reason I'm torn though is just not sold Brantley is a core guy. Bat plays better in CF though glove/range seem to fit better in LF. Not a leadoff guy and doesn't have quite the pop you want from the middle, though he definitely can hit there. Really hoping he can get back to 2012 levels as many people seem to ignore his offensive dropoff this year. Hit well with men on base sure but what happens if that goes away? Then what? Similar deals for guys like Maybin and Gutierrez didn't exactly work out either (though injuries played a big part there).

Definitely agree on extending Kipnis. Was hoping for a 5yr/$35.1M deal but that was probably always a pipedream. May take (as someone suggested) a deal similar to the ones McCutchen, JUpton, and Bruce got...around 6yr/$50M. Though may hold out for Markakis money.

Then again, those guys are all OFers....Brandon Phillips did sign a 4yr/$27M deal winter of 2008 after a 30-30, 4+ win season. Was a year further along than Kip is now though, and obviously was 6 years ago.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:04 pm

A.Zajac wrote:The only problem I have with the Brantley deal is how much money he makes in the last year of his deal... It's not incredibly backloaded, but $7.5 million for him in one year? That's a little steep.. Regardless, I would make it priority one to extend Kipnis now. Get your young core locked up. Unlike years where we had to "rebuild" if we can lock up our young core for a while PLUS add a few prospects in to the mix, I like our chances....

Brantley through 2017 plus an option for 2018. ($25 million)
Santana through 2016 plus an option for 2017. ($21 million)
Gomes: FA in 2019
Kipnis: FA in 2018
Allen: FA in 2019
Salazar: FA in 2020
Shaw: FA in 2018
McAllister: FA in 2018
Kluber: FA in 2019

Then you have Lindor coming up with Naquin, Crockett, CC Lee... Believe it or not, I really like how this team is structured heading forward.


Andrew (or anyone for that matter),

If no deal was reached, how much do you think Brantley would have earned in his last two arbitration years? I don't know the process all that well, but if he performs the way he has the last two years, I would think that he would be close to that 7.5 million mark that last arby year, and would have probably been able to land 3/24 in FA. David Murphy can't play CF, can't hit lefties all that well, and just came off a pretty miserable year, yet he got a 2/14 deal. I'm thinking the deal ends up pretty fair for both sides.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:39 am

BrianM wrote:Andrew (or anyone for that matter),

If no deal was reached, how much do you think Brantley would have earned in his last two arbitration years? I don't know the process all that well, but if he performs the way he has the last two years, I would think that he would be close to that 7.5 million mark that last arby year, and would have probably been able to land 3/24 in FA. David Murphy can't play CF, can't hit lefties all that well, and just came off a pretty miserable year, yet he got a 2/14 deal. I'm thinking the deal ends up pretty fair for both sides.


David Murphy can play CF though you do make a decent point. Not in love with this Brantley deal but seems very reasonable for the Tribe.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:04 pm

It is hard for me to love the Brantley deal, because I do not think there is a great potential for it to be a tremendous bargain... I do not think that Brantley will reach high peaks, and there is always risk of injury. That said, I do not believe he will regress, and rather prove to be a very solid performer...likely to show good value for the money invested. It is a solid move for the Tribe and I certainly like Brantley.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:04 am

Ervin Santana is agreeing to a 1-year deal with the Braves. Looks like it'll be for $14.1M...the exact amount of the QO.


Obviously not what he wanted but ultimately think he landed in a good spot. NL should help him and another good year from him and could be in line for a Lohse-type deal even if he gets another QO attached. Would mean he'd be getting about $48-50M over the next 4 years...or what he wanted here lately.

Braves forfeit the 26th overall pick to sign Santana..
Last edited by Hermie13 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:05 pm

A couple of things..

1. I am glad we did not sign Santana. Though he is solid he is not spectacular, and don't think he is the type of player who is gonna make it or break it for the Indians in regards to play-off aspirations.. Keeping the pick (and the money <-Hermination) is the way to go. As far as drafting/developing starting pitchers especially in the early rounds, it has been a huge disappointment for awhile now. But with 3 picks and what seems to be a deep class, you got set the bar high and aim for it otherwise you're guaranteed to never hit it.

Personally I think player development is a weakness for the tribe.. Pitching in LC and hitting in Akron to get even more specific. Its off topic/thread but as O.B mentioned in the other forum, the tribe would be wise to examine their development/scouting in depth and focus some spending on improving that..

2. Brantleys contract.

Overall this is a good contract.. It's a little steep at the end perhaps, but he could be easily unloaded in his final year at that price if the tribe are not in contention. Also sill feel his best year(s) are yet to come. Though not an all-star by any stretch, I am happy with his deal all and all.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:07 am

Criz...your couple of things.. Agree on the assessment of Ervin Santana..a $ 14.1 MM average pitcher. Low 4's era (4.36/4.24 FIP/xFIP, respectively K/BB 2.5.. blah blah balh).. He wins when the team he's on wins & loses when they lose (i.e.. he's not an impact addition to a pitching staff/team).. Other than making about 30 starts each and every year, he's there.. meh..

Brantley's Contract.. Agree with you.. and perhaps would go a bit further in saying that his contract represents a superb value now.. & represent a superb value throughout it's life. Dr Smoove is one of those underrated players that comes to the park and goes about his business everyday.. General trends with him are a steady walk rate with a declining K%, a BA that is trending slightly higher and minor power improvement. His arm in the outfield is becoming a weapon.. he's tracking everything in the air down.. He has a tendency to hit in the clutch and is even better with two strikes than just about anyone on the roster.. In short, he's a keeper..so the Indians did..

Good posting..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:51 pm

Can't say I'm upset we didn't sign Santana though do think the Braves got a decent deal. Maybe a bit of an overpay but was worth that in 2013 and been solid the last 5 or so years outside of 2012 when his HR nearly doubled. Added benefit is he'll be pitching for a contract again. Good deal for the Braves...in win now mode and needed a starter.



As far as Brantley...I am obviously not his biggest fan but agree the extension is solid. Don't think it was really needed or a great deal but definitely not bad at all. He is a very solid player but he regressed nearly everywhere offensively in 2013, which worries me a bit. Lowest walk rate of his career, K-rate went up a good amount (though still very good), power dropped slightly, lower BA, lower OBP, lower SLG, lower OPS, lower wOBA, lower wRC+....

Really the only areas we saw improvement from Brantley was his base stealing, and he continued to hit well with men on, though could argue it remains to be seen if that is really a repeatable trait (though three good years in a row does make you believe he could sustain it).

Keep seeing people saying Brantley's power is improving (both on this board and in articles on the main site).....which really isn't true at all. Sure hit 4 more HRs this year but his Isolated Power has actually declined each of the past two seasons (.118 to .114 to .112). It's definitely a negligible drop but best case you can say his power has held steady the last three years. More HRs is nice but fewer doubles and extra base hits as a whole limit his power potential. In 2013 Brantley had 39 extra base hits in 611 PAs. In 2012 Brantley had 47 extra base hits in 609 PAs. In 2011, Brantley had 35 extra base hits in 496 PAs.

Nice thing with the Brantley deal though is even if he simply holds steady or even continues to decline just a bit he should be worth the contract he got (provided he stays healthy but that goes for all deals really). So all-in-all, good deal with Brantley for the Tribe, but nothing earth shattering. Could argue he's a borderline platoon guy still.
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