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Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

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Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:36 pm

MLBTR reporting Indians interested in Tim Hudson.

*Edit - I was waiting for Andrew to start this thread, but the news is breaking, and I couldn't wait.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:02 pm

BrianM wrote:MLBTR reporting Indians interested in Tim Hudson.

*Edit - I was waiting for Andrew to start this thread, but the news is breaking, and I couldn't wait.


Ha, beat me to the punch.

Hudson would be a great addition, IMO.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:49 pm

Not the biggest fan of Tim Hudson in a Tribe uni. Wouldn't hate it either but worry about him being in the NL for so many years now and coming back to the AL, may be in for some struggles. If the price was low enough though could be worth a look though.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:10 pm

I've also heard Josh Johnson's name being thrown about on a one year deal.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:48 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I've also heard Josh Johnson's name being thrown about on a one year deal.


Heard his name too but not a big fan of him. Can't stay healthy and even when he was this year was just terrible. Admittedly just not a fan of Johnson at all though. Always thought he was overrated with the Marlins.

That said...he does seem like a fit in Cleveland. Type of reclamation project we have had success with in the past. Could be a Milwood type of signing.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:54 pm

If 2/18m does not get it done at for Kaz, I would have interest in Bronson Arroyo (no QO) at a similar number...actually prefer him to Hudson on a multi-year deal.

There are many interesting candidates on one year deals (Colon, Johnson, etc.), just need to find the right fit.

The Red Sox giving S. Drew a QO does give the potential Asdrubal trade value a bit of a lift...we'll see.

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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:32 pm

El Em wrote:The Red Sox giving S. Drew a QO does give the potential Asdrubal trade value a bit of a lift...we'll see.


Especially if Drew accepts the QO, thus taking a big SS option off the market...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby El Em » Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:46 pm

I actually think it is beneficial either way....makes Drew less attractive to sign, unless by a pick protected team...still sets a relatively high price tag for a somewhat similar commodity.

L
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:38 pm

El Em wrote:I actually think it is beneficial either way....makes Drew less attractive to sign, unless by a pick protected team...still sets a relatively high price tag for a somewhat similar commodity.

L


I can't believe this guy got a QO. I'm convinced he won't have a job by the start of the season if he does not accept.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:43 pm

El Em wrote:I actually think it is beneficial either way....makes Drew less attractive to sign, unless by a pick protected team...still sets a relatively high price tag for a somewhat similar commodity.

L

Yes, Larry.. you are correct..These two guys are the same.. however, they're clearly waaaay different as far as subjective performance evaluations go (read: defensive stats).. Drew is a known fielding genius with a UZR/UZR150 of 5.3/6.7.. GINORMOUS fielding stats.. (btw.. when Drew was with the Diamondbax the previous year, he was an absolutely HORRIBLE fielder UZR/UZR150 of -7.0/-14.4) At any rate.. he hit well enough.. .253 with 13 homers, 57 runs scored, 67 RBI's and 6 stolen bases.. He was waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Asdrubal who only hit .242 (one dribbler through the infield each month to equal Stephen Drew) with 14 homer, 66 runs scored, only 64 RBI's and 9 stolen bases. Asdrubal's defensive isn't very much appreciated. He is known as a statue. .a post in the ground. can't move.. stationary. He achieved fielding stats UZR/UZR150 od -12.8/-16.8. Just dreadful !..

How can a guy go from -7.0/-14.4 in 2012 to the best fielding SS in baseball the next year using subjective defensive metrics? Maybe it was Asdrubal's turn to be better IDK.. not that this measure is worth anything, but, in 2012, Asdrubal was -7.7/-8.8 It continues to irk that this measure is used to define a player's performance. It should be outlawed..today..

What the baseball world uses to determine the value/capability of a player. doesn't appear to have anything to do with some of these advanced matrices for performance evaluation. Drew will get a $ 14 MM contract in 2014 while Asdrubal will play on the north coast for 28 % less.. and still be the better player.. The Indians have a damn fine SS and should keep him and possibly even extend him.. His performance the last three weeks of the season.. says he's the guy you want at SS..

thoughts?
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:45 pm

BrianM wrote:
El Em wrote:I actually think it is beneficial either way....makes Drew less attractive to sign, unless by a pick protected team...still sets a relatively high price tag for a somewhat similar commodity.

L


I can't believe this guy got a QO. I'm convinced he won't have a job by the start of the season if he does not accept.

best guess.. the Red Sox took a calculated gamble.. They were already paying him $ 10 MM for the 2013 season. They have a clear question at 3B with Middlebrooks. One year, $ 4 MM for an insurance policy is a pretty good price.. the Red Sox really don't have anything behind him in their system..(Garin Checchini or Mookie Betts are both about 2 years away)..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:53 pm

El Em wrote:If 2/18m does not get it done at for Kaz, I would have interest in Bronson Arroyo (no QO) at a similar number...actually prefer him to Hudson on a multi-year deal.

There are many interesting candidates on one year deals (Colon, Johnson, etc.), just need to find the right fit.

The Red Sox giving S. Drew a QO does give the potential Asdrubal trade value a bit of a lift...we'll see.

Larry

Not a fan of Bronson A-Yo-Yo at all..

The Hudson/Josh Johnson comments are of interest..

Tim Hudson's medicals should be a serious concern. He's not a youngster, so, recovery is an issue. By the same token (age) he is a veteran with presence and knowledge that would make any team better because of it. For this reason.. he should be receive serious consideration and respect. A short term deal of no more than two years guaranteed.. performance incentive laden.. a third year vesting structure..etc.. should all be considered.

FWIW.. Josh Johnson, in the same light.. should be considered as another vet arm the Indians may consider signing to a similar deal if Tim Hudson decides to return the NL and Atlanta...

Thoughts?
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:58 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
El Em wrote:If 2/18m does not get it done at for Kaz, I would have interest in Bronson Arroyo (no QO) at a similar number...actually prefer him to Hudson on a multi-year deal.

There are many interesting candidates on one year deals (Colon, Johnson, etc.), just need to find the right fit.

The Red Sox giving S. Drew a QO does give the potential Asdrubal trade value a bit of a lift...we'll see.

Larry

Not a fan of Bronson A-Yo-Yo at all..

The Hudson/Josh Johnson comments are of interest..

Tim Hudson's medicals should be a serious concern. He's not a youngster, so, recovery is an issue. By the same token (age) he is a veteran with presence and knowledge that would make any team better because of it. For this reason.. he should be receive serious consideration and respect. A short term deal of no more than two years guaranteed.. performance incentive laden.. a third year vesting structure..etc.. should all be considered.

FWIW.. Josh Johnson, in the same light.. should be considered as another vet arm the Indians may consider signing to a similar deal if Tim Hudson decides to return the NL and Atlanta...

Thoughts?


I tend to lean Hudson over Johnson. In fact, I'd probably take a one year flyer on Colon over Johnson. I wouldn't hate a Johnson signing.. it would be like the Myers deal. I didn't love it. I didn't hate it.. but I understood it.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:52 am

Keith Law believes Kazmir will sign with a team for a 2-year deal worth $5-6 million per season. Fwiw.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:30 am

A.Zajac wrote:Keith Law believes Kazmir will sign with a team for a 2-year deal worth $5-6 million per season. Fwiw.

With so few LHP/ SP's on the market.. the MLB Tr value calculator for Kazmir said 2 years $ 16-18 MM.. Either way, if a pitcher is a lefty that shows front of the rotation ability can be had on a two year deal.. the indians should sign that guy..

w/r Myers.. I hated that deal from day one.. didn't get it.. didn't dig it.. didn't want it.. fwiw..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:34 am

BrianM wrote:I can't believe this guy got a QO. I'm convinced he won't have a job by the start of the season if he does not accept.


Not surprised at all Drew got a QO. Best SS on the market and "worst" case for Boston he accepts and they pay him $14.1M next year...which he was worth this year. Allows them to be patient with Boegarts or use him at 3B. Drew still will have suitors even with the draft pick attached (some rumors have the Mets interested who won't lose a 1st round pick).

Do think there's a chance he accepts, but he seems to like Boston (brother played there for several years). They could still work out a multi-year deal even if he accepts.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:42 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
How can a guy go from -7.0/-14.4 in 2012 to the best fielding SS in baseball the next year using subjective defensive metrics? Maybe it was Asdrubal's turn to be better IDK.. not that this measure is worth anything, but, in 2012, Asdrubal was -7.7/-8.8 It continues to irk that this measure is used to define a player's performance. It should be outlawed..today..

What the baseball world uses to determine the value/capability of a player. doesn't appear to have anything to do with some of these advanced matrices for performance evaluation. Drew will get a $ 14 MM contract in 2014 while Asdrubal will play on the north coast for 28 % less.. and still be the better player.. The Indians have a damn fine SS and should keep him and possibly even extend him.. His performance the last three weeks of the season.. says he's the guy you want at SS..

thoughts?


Still don't get why you always focus on one year in regards to UZR....or why you get so upset that Cabrera is considered bad by that standard...and by every other defensive metric...and by scouts/team officials'. You don't have to like UZR, but it's a stat that many teams actually use when gauging a player's defense (Indians are one of them). Won't go into this anymore as we've beaten it to death. We obviously disagree on Cabrera's defense.

Disagree strongly on extending Cabrera. Even over the last 3 weeks of the season he's not a guy I want long-term at SS. Defense is still subpar and as he aging his range is likely only to get worse. His bat was nice those last 3 weeks but he belongs at 2B or maybe even 3B long-term, not SS. Not gonna play 2B with Kipnis around...maybe you could argue 3B long-term but question his bat there some (wouldn't be terrible but not All-Star caliber really).

Still torn on him for 2014. Very good cases can be made for both keeping him and moving him. Part of me does want to keep him (even though I'm clearly not his biggest fan) as it does mean we wouldn't be likely to rush Lindor, which I'm a little worried about. May be Lindor's biggest fan, but I always worry about rushing players...something Cleveland has done far too often IMO with specs (Phillips, LaPorta, Marte, Chisenhall, etc). Tribe gave Kipnis more time than most wanted...and look how that's turned out? Even Santana got more time than most prospects for the Tribe. I'd rather Lindor spend all of 2014 in AAA (or nearly all) than be rushed. I fear that no Cabrera will accelerate Lindor's rise...and possibly accelerate too quickly. That said...if the right deal for Cabrera was on the table and it truly made the club better in 2014....
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:55 am

A.Zajac wrote:Keith Law believes Kazmir will sign with a team for a 2-year deal worth $5-6 million per season. Fwiw.


If that were the case then I believe the Indians would have already wrapped up that deal. Law shot way low on that figure.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:52 am

I just filled out my FA predictions on MLBTR. Pretty fun actually.

My simple Wishlist off that top 50 would be Kazmir, Balfour, and Uribe. MLBTR has Kazmir as the 16th best FA this winter. Keith Law is crazy if he thinks hes signing 2/12. I'm thinking he gets closer to 3/30. With so many available closers, I don't think were going to see anyone other than Nathan crack much more than 6-7 million a year, so I went with Balfour to bring some more attitude in our bullpen. Uribe can provide a nice Gold Glove caliber platoon with Chiz. I'm definitely going with a glove first player to split time with Chiz, and Uribe should be a perfect fit.

Outside of the top 50, Would like to see Franklin Gutierrez brought back to take Stubbs spot in Right, Sizemore brought back on a minor league deal, Bruce Chen acquired to fill long man and spot starter role, and Colby Lewis brought in as SP depth.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:18 pm

BrianM wrote:I just filled out my FA predictions on MLBTR. Pretty fun actually.

My simple Wishlist off that top 50 would be Kazmir, Balfour, and Uribe. MLBTR has Kazmir as the 16th best FA this winter. Keith Law is crazy if he thinks hes signing 2/12. I'm thinking he gets closer to 3/30. With so many available closers, I don't think were going to see anyone other than Nathan crack much more than 6-7 million a year, so I went with Balfour to bring some more attitude in our bullpen. Uribe can provide a nice Gold Glove caliber platoon with Chiz. I'm definitely going with a glove first player to split time with Chiz, and Uribe should be a perfect fit.

Outside of the top 50, Would like to see Franklin Gutierrez brought back to take Stubbs spot in Right, Sizemore brought back on a minor league deal, Bruce Chen acquired to fill long man and spot starter role, and Colby Lewis brought in as SP depth.


Like Kaz and Uribe a lot. Like Balfour too but think he's gonna be a bit too pricey for the Tribe in both years/dollars. Think he can get a multi-year deal and not sure the Tribe will go that route for a closer with guys like Shaw and Allen around. If you could get him on a 1yr deal though I'd do it with Balfour (even though he has one of the worst names ever for a pitcher).

I really don't get the Gut love. IMO he's a downgrade from Stubbs, but may actually cost more money. Stubbs is a better baserunner, better offensively, and no slouch defensively. Would also be a fan of Chen (as stated before on this site). Great swing man that can relieve or start. Sizemore...minor league deals are never bad so why not. Colby Lewis is an intriguing target. Gonna have a lot of suitors thinking the same thing, good low risk guy to add.


A guy I'd like to throw into the ring is Rafael Furcal. Sort of forgotten with the injuries of late and missing the year but when healthy still can be a valuable asset. Would be tied to a Cabrera trade but a 1-year incentive laden deal may not be a bad option.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:17 pm

L[/quote]
Yes, Larry.. you are correct..These two guys are the same.. however, they're clearly waaaay different as far as subjective performance evaluations go (read: defensive stats).. Drew is a known fielding genius with a UZR/UZR150 of 5.3/6.7.. GINORMOUS fielding stats.. (btw.. when Drew was with the Diamondbax the previous year, he was an absolutely HORRIBLE fielder UZR/UZR150 of -7.0/-14.4) At any rate.. he hit well enough.. .253 with 13 homers, 57 runs scored, 67 RBI's and 6 stolen bases.. He was waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Asdrubal who only hit .242 (one dribbler through the infield each month to equal Stephen Drew) with 14 homer, 66 runs scored, only 64 RBI's and 9 stolen bases. Asdrubal's defensive isn't very much appreciated. He is known as a statue. .a post in the ground. can't move.. stationary. He achieved fielding stats UZR/UZR150 od -12.8/-16.8. Just dreadful !..

How can a guy go from -7.0/-14.4 in 2012 to the best fielding SS in baseball the next year using subjective defensive metrics? Maybe it was Asdrubal's turn to be better IDK.. not that this measure is worth anything, but, in 2012, Asdrubal was -7.7/-8.8 It continues to irk that this measure is used to define a player's performance. It should be outlawed..today..

What the baseball world uses to determine the value/capability of a player. doesn't appear to have anything to do with some of these advanced matrices for performance evaluation. Drew will get a $ 14 MM contract in 2014 while Asdrubal will play on the north coast for 28 % less.. and still be the better player.. The Indians have a damn fine SS and should keep him and possibly even extend him.. His performance the last three weeks of the season.. says he's the guy you want at SS..

thoughts?[/quote]

Completely disagree on Cabrera/Drew comparisons.

Even before the worst defensive season of Asdrubal's career, he was barely considered a passable ML short stop. A few of the teams rumored to be looking at him last offseason were talking about moving him to 2nd or 3rd. Spanning about 5,500 career innings at short stop, he has a career -42.9 UZR, ranking him 20th out of 21 major league short stops with at least 5,000 innings at the position since Asdrubal came into the league. We can cite small sample sizes, subjectiveness in defensive metrics, etc...but when we're talking about 5,500 innings, it's a pretty fair bet that Asdrubal is a bad defensive short stop...and he is getting worse.

The fact that Drew was offered 14 million while Asdrubal will make "only" 10 million in 2014 has nothing to do with what metrics are being looked at--it's the fact that Drew became a free agent, while Cabrera signed a deal well in advance to his free agency. When you're guaranteeing money long before you are forced to, the expectation is that you'll pay less than market value for it. If that wasn't the case, what's the point in signing a guy two or three years before he can be a free agent?

So Drew is at least an average defensive short stop, probably slightly above average...while Cabrera is slightly below average at BEST, probably well below average. How about offense? Drew's OBP was 30 points higher than Cabrera's..not one dribbler through the infield more...30 points higher. That's huge. 30 point difference in OBP plus a 30 point difference in isolated power (it took Cabrera 562 PA's to hit those 14 HR, Drew only needed 501 to hit 13), and it's pretty easy to see why Drew is going to get a huge deal this offseason.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:35 pm

adam30 wrote:Completely disagree on Cabrera/Drew comparisons.

Even before the worst defensive season of Asdrubal's career, he was barely considered a passable ML short stop. A few of the teams rumored to be looking at him last offseason were talking about moving him to 2nd or 3rd. Spanning about 5,500 career innings at short stop, he has a career -42.9 UZR, ranking him 20th out of 21 major league short stops with at least 5,000 innings at the position since Asdrubal came into the league. We can cite small sample sizes, subjectiveness in defensive metrics, etc...but when we're talking about 5,500 innings, it's a pretty fair bet that Asdrubal is a bad defensive short stop...and he is getting worse.

The fact that Drew was offered 14 million while Asdrubal will make "only" 10 million in 2014 has nothing to do with what metrics are being looked at--it's the fact that Drew became a free agent, while Cabrera signed a deal well in advance to his free agency. When you're guaranteeing money long before you are forced to, the expectation is that you'll pay less than market value for it. If that wasn't the case, what's the point in signing a guy two or three years before he can be a free agent?

So Drew is at least an average defensive short stop, probably slightly above average...while Cabrera is slightly below average at BEST, probably well below average. How about offense? Drew's OBP was 30 points higher than Cabrera's..not one dribbler through the infield more...30 points higher. That's huge. 30 point difference in OBP plus a 30 point difference in isolated power (it took Cabrera 562 PA's to hit those 14 HR, Drew only needed 501 to hit 13), and it's pretty easy to see why Drew is going to get a huge deal this offseason.


Well said.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:42 pm

Completely disagree on Cabrera/Drew comparisons.

Even before the worst defensive season of Asdrubal's career, he was barely considered a passable ML short stop...


"...barely considered passable.." LMAO !!

Subjective is the key here.. When a player goes from UZR/UZR150 of 5.3/6.7.. to a UZR/UZR150 of -7.0/-14.4 in the span of one season to the next, then stop using the stat.. It's meaningless. To say "this guy is a bad defender because the IDIOT stat that's used that doesn't mean anything says so.." is the point...

Asdrubal's lifetime OBP is higher than Drews.. one season to the next...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:18 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Completely disagree on Cabrera/Drew comparisons.

Even before the worst defensive season of Asdrubal's career, he was barely considered a passable ML short stop...


"...barely considered passable.." LMAO !!

Subjective is the key here.. When a player goes from UZR/UZR150 of 5.3/6.7.. to a UZR/UZR150 of -7.0/-14.4 in the span of one season to the next, then stop using the stat.. It's meaningless. To say "this guy is a bad defender because the IDIOT stat that's used that doesn't mean anything says so.." is the point...

Asdrubal's lifetime OBP is higher than Drews.. one season to the next...


Have you actually watched Asdrubal play short stop? The guy has NO range, particularly going to his right. Can UZR and DRS be unreliable from one season to the next? Yes. But guess what...so can ERA, Batting Average, RBI, Saves, etc. Should we throw out every stat because there's some noise in the data?

Even the strongest supporters of advanced defensive stats like UZR and DRS will tell you to wait until you have a 3 year sample size to evaluate a player. Well...we have plenty of sample size here with both Asdrubal and Drew. Over the last 3 full seasons, Asdrubal has posted a mark of -11.8, -8.8, and -16.8, respectively, according to UZR/150. They aren't identically bad from year to year, but they are CONSISTENTLY bad, and that's the key. That averages out to -12.4 UZR/150.

Drew's numbers over that time average out to +.7...as I said, not great...but significantly better than Asdrubal. You want to throw UZR numbers out the window because it doesn't support your theory that he is a good short stop. But whether you're going by UZR or simply by the eye test...Asdrubal is barely even a SS anymore. Up until 2013 you could live with his bad defense because he was such a plus on offense compared to other SS's in baseball. Hopefully he can rebound to those numbers in 2014 because there's nothing out there to suggest he's going to magically turn from a bad defender to a good one.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:57 pm

Adam.. yes..I have watched him play.. many many times..

The epitome of an Asdrubal Cabrera play occurred when during the Texas series, July 26th.. Beltre had singled to left center and Jeff Baker was coming up to bat.. The defense was swung around as if Baker was a right handed pull hitter..Asdrubal deep in the hole at short.. Baker hit a ball well to the left of Asdrubal who took dove for the ball and caught it on a hop after it had already gotten past him. Droobs landed on his stomach with his right arm extended..Droobs got to his knees and back hand flipped the ball toward Kipnis covering at 2nd base, however Beltre beat the throw, giving Baker and infield single and, most importantly from a defensive UZR perspective gave Asdrubal a NEGATIVE RANGE FACTOR mark for the play, even though he was deep in the hole at SS.. because of his position. Droobs was dinged.

This is the kind of BULLSHIT calls that go into making up UZR and UZR150.. They are totally subjective.. they do not annotate the location of the fielder prior to the ball being hit.. just where the ball is hit relative to the position point of the standard fielder (not where he's at..it's a fixed point and the results reported on a spray chart..

This is why when someone says.. this is the best defensive measure and it's over 200000000 balls in play and his UZR is negative whatever.. I LAUGH MY ASS OFF.. as the subjectivity of that stat is just bananas.. It should never be used to evaluate ANYTHING..

A data point that is known to be wrong prior to the entry of that data point into a data set skews the entire data profile making it USELESS.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Edible14 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:45 am

At the same time, positioning yourself properly for a hitter is important, and shouldn't be disregarded. You could theoretically build a range stat that factors in defensive position, but at that point the stat would just be telling you what you could probably glean more efficiently from a stopwatch and infield drills.

UZR is a messy stat, and far from perfect. Nobody, even those who use it, argue otherwise. The question always has been... what's the better measure? What do you use to evaluate defensive prowess? There are likely tons of more advanced measures that use batted ball data and reaction times and all sorts of things - but what's available publicly is much more limited. You have errors/fielding percentage, which tell you next to nothing. You have UZR, which is flawed in that it takes far too long to normalize and doesn't take into account some of the more important nuances of fielding (receiving throws, pitch framing, holding runners, etc.). You could look at total chances, which tell us that despite having logged some of the most innings of any shortstop over the last three years, Asrubal consistently ranks towards the bottom in making outs, assists and errors (suggesting that he's just not very good at getting to the ball).

So you could go the route of suggesting "ignore all the stats, listen to the scouts", who all say he's not very good defensively. Read any baseball insider and what they have to say about Asdrubal's perceived defensive value in baseball. It's not good. Even Tony, who has every motivation to pump up Adrubal's defensive value as a guy who is close with the Indians org and wants to see the Indians do well, can't defend his defensive skill set.

I ask again. There's no stat that backs up your assertion. There's no scouting report that backs up your assertion. Why should anyone believe that Adsrubal Cabrera is an above-average defensive shortstop? Just because of your subjective evaluations? You are but one voice on a semi-anonymous message board. There is no reason for anyone to take that statement seriously, and there is even less reason for you to act so defensive and dismissive of anyone who questions Asdrubal's defensive prowess.

And subjective is still not a synonym for bad. You still abuse that word, without any apparent knowledge as to what it means. In fact, in your argument above about one single play where UZR scored him negatively where it shouldn't have, you are in fact arguing for *more* subjectivity in that stat. The stat measures something objective - whether or not it's terribly useful is a different argument altogether. Whether a player got to a baseball in a zone and made an out is not a matter of subjectivity. Arguing that he shouldn't be penalized for being in a shift is arguing that you should add subjectivity to a statistic, that we should allow opinions as to what a "proper" position on the diamond should be or if the defensive player "did all he can" is. Those are subjective things.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:11 am

...subjective is still not a synonym for bad. You still abuse that word, without any apparent knowledge as to what it means. In fact, in your argument above about one single play where UZR scored him negatively where it shouldn't have, you are in fact arguing for *more* subjectivity in that stat...


I'm going to leave this argument behind as it won't go anywhere other than into a pissing contest.. There is no issue with the definition of subjective nor is the term abused. Know. Those are the kind of comments that further the debate into the muck and mire when, in reality, the solution is really quite clear.. If you can measure range..you can measure a starting point.. If you advocate not measuring, throwing your hands up in the air and claiming with the might of collectivism "..this is the best that can be done.." knowing full well that this is a lie to yourself, then the argument is over.. It's not the best you can do, therefore, it's not the best measure. .and it serves no basis for rendering an opinion that a player's worth is measured in the metric system using a yard stick ...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:13 am

Dave Cameron at USS Mariner submitted a curious story regarding the re-loading/building of the Mariners. He uses Fangraph's data exclusively (as a site editor), so, there is some insight into why he would make the following a MAJOR part of the M's off season:

-Trade James Paxton, Nick Franklin, and Yoervis Medina to Colorado for OF Dexter Fowler, MI Josh Rutledge, and RP Matt Belisle

It just didn't make sense that he would advocate the trade of a guy, James Paxton, for a Michael Brantley-esque OF'er, a middle of the road middle infielder and a young RP. This is the kind of deal that the Indians and Mariners have closed in the past. While there is nothing in the way of validation to the plan.. would you give up Michael Brantley, Jose Ramirez and Vinnie Pestano for this same trio from the M's?. perhaps change out one of Nick Franklin or Yoervis on the Mariners side?. Any one of the three on the Indians' side?.. thoughts?

The article can be found here: http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/11/05/da ... ason-plan/
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:52 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Adam.. yes..I have watched him play.. many many times..

The epitome of an Asdrubal Cabrera play occurred when during the Texas series, July 26th.. Beltre had singled to left center and Jeff Baker was coming up to bat.. The defense was swung around as if Baker was a right handed pull hitter..Asdrubal deep in the hole at short.. Baker hit a ball well to the left of Asdrubal who took dove for the ball and caught it on a hop after it had already gotten past him. Droobs landed on his stomach with his right arm extended..Droobs got to his knees and back hand flipped the ball toward Kipnis covering at 2nd base, however Beltre beat the throw, giving Baker and infield single and, most importantly from a defensive UZR perspective gave Asdrubal a NEGATIVE RANGE FACTOR mark for the play, even though he was deep in the hole at SS.. because of his position. Droobs was dinged.

This is the kind of BULLSHIT calls that go into making up UZR and UZR150.. They are totally subjective.. they do not annotate the location of the fielder prior to the ball being hit.. just where the ball is hit relative to the position point of the standard fielder (not where he's at..it's a fixed point and the results reported on a spray chart..

This is why when someone says.. this is the best defensive measure and it's over 200000000 balls in play and his UZR is negative whatever.. I LAUGH MY ASS OFF.. as the subjectivity of that stat is just bananas.. It should never be used to evaluate ANYTHING..

A data point that is known to be wrong prior to the entry of that data point into a data set skews the entire data profile making it USELESS.


So just because you disagree with the scoring of a certain play, the entire stat is useless? Is ERA useless? Because I've seen plenty of times where a pitcher gets charged with an earned run when I don't feel he deserves it. For example, 2 outs, guy on second base, ground about 3 feet to Asdrubal's right, in a spot where about 99% of the SS's in the league would get to it, and it goes into the outfield, allowing a run to score, hurting the pitcher's ERA, but not hurting Asdrubal's fielding percentage because he didn't have the range to get to it. Saw that PLENTY over the last 3 years with him at short.

And believe it or not...UZR is not out to get Asdrubal Cabrera. He is not the only one affected by infield shifts and things like that in a negative way. But the point is that most of those things even out over time, and those few isolated incidents like that do not contribute a whole lot to the total rating score. What contributes more is him CONSTANTLY not getting to balls that the vast majority of SS's in baseball would get to and his below average throwing arm.

Again, if this was a one year thing, where he was average or above average and all of a sudden he put up a negative UZR rating...I'd say eh, maybe that's just a statistical anomaly that'll normalize back to his career averages next year. That's not the case with Asdrubal. The only time he has posted a positive UZR rating was in 2007, when he was +1.0, in like 40 innings. Since then, his BEST ranking in a full season was -5.0, and it's gotten progressively worse.

Unless you are willing to completely throw out every stat that has ever been written, you can't throw out UZR just because you disagree with some of the scoring criteria. Nobody has ever claimed it to be 100% accurate, but again...no stat is 100% accurate. The point isn't to be 100% accurate, it's to give you an idea of who is good, who is bad, and who is roughly average. Who gives you positive value defensively? Who gives you negative value? Who doesn't hurt you but also doesn't help you? When you have a player with over 5,400 innings played at the position, you have a big enough sample size to at least categorize him as good, average, or bad. And when UZR and DRS (Fielding Bible's defensive metric) both categorize you as bad year in and year out...sorry, but it's not a coincidence.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:53 am

Rays have resigned David DeJesus to a 2yr/$10.5M deal with an option for 2016 (replacing the 2014 option they picked up). Takes him off the market for good. Would have been a nice sign/trade candidate for the Tribe IMO.

Per speculation but wonder if this could open up Matt Joyce potentially as a trade partner. DeJesus has some bad splits (terrible against lefties) and Joyce isn't a good platoon guy as he hit .164 against lefties this year with an OPS under .500. Really wonder if something along the lines of Stubbs for Joyce could work. Stubbs/DeJesus would be a nice platoon for the Rays with Jennings and Myers in the OF. Joyce would make a nice DH/RF platoon with Raburn in Cleveland. Both Joyce and Stubbs will be 2nd time arby guys and both with 2 years control left.

Joyce is obviously the better bat but Stubbs is better defensively and on the bases. Both guys have had one solid year (2010 for Stubbs, 2011 for Joyce) and been average the rest of their careers...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:17 pm

I'd do that trade yesterday from our standpoint...seems like a possibility at least on paper.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:28 pm

David DeJesus is another one of those talented OF'er that escaped the Royals.. Carlos Beltran.. too bad Alex Gordon can't be pried away.. he'd be the answer to any OF questions.. I doubt the Indians would get much more than a Level A minor leaguer for Stubbs, making him more valuable to the Indians than the return. Too bad Chisenhall doesn't play a little OF. He and Stubbs would make for a very nice platoon.. very nice indeed..

Didn't someone mention giving Chisenhall some reps in the OF?

...So just because you disagree with the scoring of a certain play, the entire stat is useless? Is ERA useless? Because I've seen plenty of times where a pitcher gets charged with an earned run...


Aunt Sally arguments work on your level.. not mine... I have no problems with scoring..

(pssst: Aunt Sally or Strawman is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. The presentation of the argument can be either or both intentional or unintentional)
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:43 pm

Did you not say this: "A data point that is known to be wrong prior to the entry of that data point into a data set skews the entire data profile making it USELESS."

You disagree with UZR giving Asdrubal a negative value on that particular play, therefore (in your mind) the entire data profile is useless. Right? I'm just reading what you wrote.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:46 pm

And my point is that if you're looking at a data profile, you may have a handful of plays that are outliers...plays that you feel aren't an accurate description of the player...but most of your data over the course of a significant sample size (which in the case of UZR is about 3 years worth of data) is not going to be around those outliers, it's going to be closer to the mean. What determines good vs. bad is not a handful of outliers out of 5000+ innings of work...it's the rest of the data in between those outliers.

I can't say it any better than Dave Cameron of Fangraphs:

"Before drawing any conclusions about a player’s defense, look at a full three years of defensive data, drop the decimal points and take an average, and compare DRS scores with other defensive metrics (UZR, TZL, etc.). By taking a broader picture, you will help ensure that you’re not being over-confident or overstating a player’s defensive abilities."
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:07 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Dave Cameron at USS Mariner submitted a curious story regarding the re-loading/building of the Mariners. He uses Fangraph's data exclusively (as a site editor), so, there is some insight into why he would make the following a MAJOR part of the M's off season:

-Trade James Paxton, Nick Franklin, and Yoervis Medina to Colorado for OF Dexter Fowler, MI Josh Rutledge, and RP Matt Belisle

It just didn't make sense that he would advocate the trade of a guy, James Paxton, for a Michael Brantley-esque OF'er, a middle of the road middle infielder and a young RP. This is the kind of deal that the Indians and Mariners have closed in the past. While there is nothing in the way of validation to the plan.. would you give up Michael Brantley, Jose Ramirez and Vinnie Pestano for this same trio from the M's?. perhaps change out one of Nick Franklin or Yoervis on the Mariners side?. Any one of the three on the Indians' side?.. thoughts?

The article can be found here: http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/11/05/da ... ason-plan/


The guy mentions that the Rockies would be willing to do the deal so they can shed payroll and acquire the power bat they need. If the M's are looking to add some payroll, I'd ship them Bourn instead of Brantley. they were in on Bourn last winter anyway, and he may have less risk and is controlled longer than Fowler. In this situation I would offer Bourn, Ramirez/Aviles, and it would probably take Shaw to bring back the 3 prospects listed above. I would do that deal in a heartbeat. I like Bourn, but without his salary on the books it would make it so much easier to extend Masterson and maybe even resign Ubaldo this offseason.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:48 pm

BrianM wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Dave Cameron at USS Mariner submitted a curious story regarding the re-loading/building of the Mariners. He uses Fangraph's data exclusively (as a site editor), so, there is some insight into why he would make the following a MAJOR part of the M's off season:

-Trade James Paxton, Nick Franklin, and Yoervis Medina to Colorado for OF Dexter Fowler, MI Josh Rutledge, and RP Matt Belisle

It just didn't make sense that he would advocate the trade of a guy, James Paxton, for a Michael Brantley-esque OF'er, a middle of the road middle infielder and a young RP. This is the kind of deal that the Indians and Mariners have closed in the past. While there is nothing in the way of validation to the plan.. would you give up Michael Brantley, Jose Ramirez and Vinnie Pestano for this same trio from the M's?. perhaps change out one of Nick Franklin or Yoervis on the Mariners side?. Any one of the three on the Indians' side?.. thoughts?

The article can be found here: http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/11/05/da ... ason-plan/


The guy mentions that the Rockies would be willing to do the deal so they can shed payroll and acquire the power bat they need. If the M's are looking to add some payroll, I'd ship them Bourn instead of Brantley. they were in on Bourn last winter anyway, and he may have less risk and is controlled longer than Fowler. In this situation I would offer Bourn, Ramirez/Aviles, and it would probably take Shaw to bring back the 3 prospects listed above. I would do that deal in a heartbeat. I like Bourn, but without his salary on the books it would make it so much easier to extend Masterson and maybe even resign Ubaldo this offseason.


Bourn instead of Brantley = I'd be okay with that.. three years instead of four.. perhaps some $$ to asuage the expense..
Aviles is definitely out.. he stays.. dont' leave.. he's an indian.. (digging my heels in)
Shaw instead of .. okay.. BP arms are BP arms are... the Indians have plenty of them...

Still seems like a low ask on the acquisition of Paxson.. How about the other M's coming to the Indians?..

If you take a poorly defined and executed method of measure, add it to other poorly defined and executed methods of measure.. put them in a pot.. stir them up with three years worth of crap data.. then throw out something that seems odd and take an average..all you've done is turned your peanut butter statistical approach at defining the worth of a player into a non-defined load of crapola.. good luck with that..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:38 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
BrianM wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Dave Cameron at USS Mariner submitted a curious story regarding the re-loading/building of the Mariners. He uses Fangraph's data exclusively (as a site editor), so, there is some insight into why he would make the following a MAJOR part of the M's off season:

-Trade James Paxton, Nick Franklin, and Yoervis Medina to Colorado for OF Dexter Fowler, MI Josh Rutledge, and RP Matt Belisle

It just didn't make sense that he would advocate the trade of a guy, James Paxton, for a Michael Brantley-esque OF'er, a middle of the road middle infielder and a young RP. This is the kind of deal that the Indians and Mariners have closed in the past. While there is nothing in the way of validation to the plan.. would you give up Michael Brantley, Jose Ramirez and Vinnie Pestano for this same trio from the M's?. perhaps change out one of Nick Franklin or Yoervis on the Mariners side?. Any one of the three on the Indians' side?.. thoughts?

The article can be found here: http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/11/05/da ... ason-plan/


The guy mentions that the Rockies would be willing to do the deal so they can shed payroll and acquire the power bat they need. If the M's are looking to add some payroll, I'd ship them Bourn instead of Brantley. they were in on Bourn last winter anyway, and he may have less risk and is controlled longer than Fowler. In this situation I would offer Bourn, Ramirez/Aviles, and it would probably take Shaw to bring back the 3 prospects listed above. I would do that deal in a heartbeat. I like Bourn, but without his salary on the books it would make it so much easier to extend Masterson and maybe even resign Ubaldo this offseason.


Bourn instead of Brantley = I'd be okay with that.. three years instead of four.. perhaps some $$ to asuage the expense..
Aviles is definitely out.. he stays.. dont' leave.. he's an indian.. (digging my heels in)
Shaw instead of .. okay.. BP arms are BP arms are... the Indians have plenty of them...

Still seems like a low ask on the acquisition of Paxson.. How about the other M's coming to the Indians?..

If you take a poorly defined and executed method of measure, add it to other poorly defined and executed methods of measure.. put them in a pot.. stir them up with three years worth of crap data.. then throw out something that seems odd and take an average..all you've done is turned your peanut butter statistical approach at defining the worth of a player into a non-defined load of crapola.. good luck with that..


I read your post, and all it seems to say is "I'm going to stick my head in the sand and ignore 3 years worth of statistical data because the data doesn't support my opinion."

good luck with that.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:02 pm

adam30 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
BrianM wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Dave Cameron ...... that..


I read your post, and all it seems to say is "I'm going to stick my head in the sand and ignore 3 years worth of statistical data because the data doesn't support my opinion."

good luck with that.



Too bad you couldn't have read the content of the posting well enough to realize that there is no statisitical data worth discussion.. So you've came to this ostrich conclusion.. Not surprising.. It dove tails and is consistent with the approach: "...in the event that it takes work to ferret out a difficult measure, use whatever exists and call it the best it can be..while hoping no one else comes along and calls bad information what it is.. BAD.." In reality all you're doing is taking skewed and poorly defined and arrived at data and claiming someone ELSE is wrong. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.. bad data in.. bad results out.. garbage in garbage out.. simple.. and too bad for you..
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:53 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Too bad you couldn't have read the content of the posting well enough to realize that there is no statisitical data worth discussion.. .


This is your opinion. One that very few people in baseball (if any) believe anymore. You're obviously entitled to your opinion though...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:05 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Keith Law believes Kazmir will sign with a team for a 2-year deal worth $5-6 million per season. Fwiw.


I finally got around to checking out his top 50. To clarify, Law did not say he believes Kazmir will sign for 2 years worth $5-6M per. He said that such a deal would not be as insane as it sounds given how he pitched, referring to the fact that he missed basically 2 full seasons and hadn't been good since 2008. He says he doesn't feel he should be paid as a middle of the rotatoin starter due to the issues over the previous 4 seasons, even though he did pitch like one in 2013. He states at the top of his article that the values he listed are not actually his predictions of what the player will get. Sort of a cop out on Law's part as he can now say any deal is good or bad after the fact as he never actually listed what he thought a player would get on the open market.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:31 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
adam30 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
BrianM wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Dave Cameron ...... that..


I read your post, and all it seems to say is "I'm going to stick my head in the sand and ignore 3 years worth of statistical data because the data doesn't support my opinion."

good luck with that.



Too bad you couldn't have read the content of the posting well enough to realize that there is no statisitical data worth discussion.. So you've came to this ostrich conclusion.. Not surprising.. It dove tails and is consistent with the approach: "...in the event that it takes work to ferret out a difficult measure, use whatever exists and call it the best it can be..while hoping no one else comes along and calls bad information what it is.. BAD.." In reality all you're doing is taking skewed and poorly defined and arrived at data and claiming someone ELSE is wrong. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.. bad data in.. bad results out.. garbage in garbage out.. simple.. and too bad for you..


By all means...if you're come across a metric that is better a determining defensive ability, I am all ears. UZR, DRS, TZL, etc. None of these metrics are perfect and I never claimed they were. But they are all pretty different in HOW they come up with their data, and yet they all pretty much agree that Asdrubal is a bad defensive SS. I'm sure that's gotta just be some huge coincidence that every advanced metric available to the public also agrees with the growing opinion in and around baseball that Asdrubal is not a good defensive SS.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby adam30 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:38 pm

By the way...are you like, super pissed that MLB has added defensive metrics into the gold glove awards?

Dickey (P), Molina (C), Goldschmidt (1B), Pedroia (2B), Simmons (SS), Machado (3B), Gordon (LF), Gomez (CF), Parra (RF) were Fielding Bible's overall winners at their respective positions, based on a combination of their advanced fielding metrics. If you don't like fielding metrics like DRS, UZR, TZL, etc...you're not going to be real happy when you look up the list of actual gold glove award winners.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:41 pm

adam30 wrote:By the way...are you like, super pissed that MLB has added defensive metrics into the gold glove awards?

Dickey (P), Molina (C), Goldschmidt (1B), Pedroia (2B), Simmons (SS), Machado (3B), Gordon (LF), Gomez (CF), Parra (RF) were Fielding Bible's overall winners at their respective positions, based on a combination of their advanced fielding metrics. If you don't like fielding metrics like DRS, UZR, TZL, etc...you're not going to be real happy when you look up the list of actual gold glove award winners.


Derek Jeter won two gold gloves. lol...

But, tbh.. I'd love to see Franklin Gutierrez return on a minor league deal or a major league min deal with incentives.. He's a fine defensive OF'er and a deserving winning for a Fielding Bible Award...
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:23 pm

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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby BrianM » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:54 pm



Interesting. Thanks for Posting.

I'm gonna go by the agents numbers and sign
Kazmir 2/17.5
Chen 2/9
Uribe 2/10
Hart 1/6
=
24.25 Million

Can we afford that?
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:10 pm

BrianM wrote:


Interesting. Thanks for Posting.

I'm gonna go by the agents numbers and sign
Kazmir 2/17.5
Chen 2/9
Uribe 2/10
Hart 1/6
=
24.25 Million

Can we afford that?


If you trade Cabrera, then yes. By my estimates it puts the $86-87M, which is pushing the high end of the payroll but doable IMO. Move Stubbs as well though and you're back down around $83M, which seems very reasonable to me. And quite frankly, not sure you need Stubbs or have a spot for him with the additions you made.

Lineup: Kipnis, Swisher, Hart, Santana, Brantley, Gomes, Bourn, Uribe/Chiz, Aviles/JRam
Bench: Chiz/Uribe, Raburn, Ramirez/Aviles, and Giambi (or whomever gets the last spot)


EDIT: Should be noted too, that by my estimates that could put the 2015 payroll around $87-88M without Masterson. So doesn't hurt future payroll in the sense we should be ok but could make it tough to extend Masterson (though could move salary again possibly or non-tender a few guys and backload a Masterson extension)
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:18 pm



Couple things jumped out at me on this first time I saw it.

Beltran a $20M a year player?!? I mean, he was good but his OBP really dropped this year and his defense is going downhill fast. Sure it's only 2 years but that seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Choo...I just can't see anyone giving a guy with splits as big as his (nearly 400 pts this year) $100M. I think he's gonna get way less than that, maybe not quite Swisher levels but closer to that than $100M.

Granderson...surprised no one said he'd accept the QO.
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:23 pm

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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:36 pm

Random notes:

Tim Hudson and the Red Sox have mutual interest.
Bronson Arroyo has been linked to SF.
Dodgers are unwilling to unload Kemp, Crawford, and/or Either
Cincinnati is looking into the possibility of trading Phillips
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Re: Official 2013 Off-Season Thread (Rumors & Notes)

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:42 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Random notes:

Tim Hudson and the Red Sox have mutual interest.
Bronson Arroyo has been linked to SF.
Dodgers are unwilling to unload Kemp, Crawford, and/or Either
Cincinnati is looking into the possibility of trading Phillips



Good place for him. HRs kill him and that park will help.
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