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Decisions that Need to Be Faced

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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Edible14 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:00 pm

Something I put up on the Stubbs article on the front page, but how about Yan Gomes getting some time at 3B next year? I assume Santana hasn't played it in long enough that he's no longer an option there, but Gomes played 3B and 1B for the Jays in 2012, and those were reportedly positions he can play when he was traded. Given Chisenhall's terrible splits, having Gomes play there against lefties could allow the Indians to put together a good platoon-heavy lineup:

Bourn, CF
Swisher, 1B
Kipnis, 2B
Santana, C
Raburn, DH
Gomes, 3B
Cabrera, SS
Brantley, LF
Stubbs, RF

The other possibility to me is getting Brantley or Bourn rotated out against lefties, but Bourn had negligible splits last year (as did Aviles, incidentally) and people think Brantley is untouchable for whatever reason. But Brantley's splits call for a platoon more than any other lefty on the team aside from Chisenhall.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:05 am

Edible14 wrote:Something I put up on the Stubbs article on the front page, but how about Yan Gomes getting some time at 3B next year? I assume Santana hasn't played it in long enough that he's no longer an option there, but Gomes played 3B and 1B for the Jays in 2012, and those were reportedly positions he can play when he was traded. Given Chisenhall's terrible splits, having Gomes play there against lefties could allow the Indians to put together a good platoon-heavy lineup:

Bourn, CF
Swisher, 1B
Kipnis, 2B
Santana, C
Raburn, DH
Gomes, 3B
Cabrera, SS
Brantley, LF
Stubbs, RF

The other possibility to me is getting Brantley or Bourn rotated out against lefties, but Bourn had negligible splits last year (as did Aviles, incidentally) and people think Brantley is untouchable for whatever reason. But Brantley's splits call for a platoon more than any other lefty on the team aside from Chisenhall.


Love the creative use of Gomes at 3B & it should be considered. Hermie has mentioned (several times) that using Santana in LF could be another avenue to consider. If an OF'er (Stubbs, Brantley or Bourn) needs a day off, perhaps more to recover from a nick, then giving Carlos Santana some time in LF makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure how Jose Ramirez slots into the mix.. any thoughts?

It's the versatility of several players that allowed the Indians to carry Big G.. and he was superb in his role.. More of the same should be on tap for 2014..

btw.. Congrats to the Cardinals on the NL Pennant..done with over 2/3rds of the players on their 25 man roster coming through their own drafts..
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:08 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Something I put up on the Stubbs article on the front page, but how about Yan Gomes getting some time at 3B next year? I assume Santana hasn't played it in long enough that he's no longer an option there, but Gomes played 3B and 1B for the Jays in 2012, and those were reportedly positions he can play when he was traded. Given Chisenhall's terrible splits, having Gomes play there against lefties could allow the Indians to put together a good platoon-heavy lineup:

Bourn, CF
Swisher, 1B
Kipnis, 2B
Santana, C
Raburn, DH
Gomes, 3B
Cabrera, SS
Brantley, LF
Stubbs, RF

The other possibility to me is getting Brantley or Bourn rotated out against lefties, but Bourn had negligible splits last year (as did Aviles, incidentally) and people think Brantley is untouchable for whatever reason. But Brantley's splits call for a platoon more than any other lefty on the team aside from Chisenhall.


Love the creative use of Gomes at 3B & it should be considered. Hermie has mentioned (several times) that using Santana in LF could be another avenue to consider. If an OF'er (Stubbs, Brantley or Bourn) needs a day off, perhaps more to recover from a nick, then giving Carlos Santana some time in LF makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure how Jose Ramirez slots into the mix.. any thoughts?

It's the versatility of several players that allowed the Indians to carry Big G.. and he was superb in his role.. More of the same should be on tap for 2014..

btw.. Congrats to the Cardinals on the NL Pennant..done with over 2/3rds of the players on their 25 man roster coming through their own drafts..


I think I'm more open to the idea of Santana in left field than Gomes playing at third. Guess it wont matter either way, we'll still need both to catch. Some people (that dork Hiram) argue that Santana's value is way down if he isn't a catcher, the same argument goes for Gomes too, not to mention he proved to be a really damn good catcher already.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Edible14 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:51 pm

Santana is a top 10 hitter at any position. That argument is silly for him. It works in Gomes' case, and I wouldn't have him at 1B (why would you, when Santana would be better suited for it?), but 3B would be fine. First off, 3B isn't as premium an offensive position as it used to be; and second off if he's just doing against lefties, he's more than a good enough hitter to have value there. If he's a good enough defender there, I think it's an idea worth exploring.

As for Ramirez, I think he'll end up doing what he did for the team at the end of the year this year. He'll be a solid defensive sub and pinch-runner, but most of the at-bats will go towards Aviles.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby daingean » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:04 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Something I put up on the Stubbs article on the front page, but how about Yan Gomes getting some time at 3B next year? I assume Santana hasn't played it in long enough that he's no longer an option there, but Gomes played 3B and 1B for the Jays in 2012, and those were reportedly positions he can play when he was traded. Given Chisenhall's terrible splits, having Gomes play there against lefties could allow the Indians to put together a good platoon-heavy lineup:

Bourn, CF
Swisher, 1B
Kipnis, 2B
Santana, C
Raburn, DH
Gomes, 3B
Cabrera, SS
Brantley, LF
Stubbs, RF

The other possibility to me is getting Brantley or Bourn rotated out against lefties, but Bourn had negligible splits last year (as did Aviles, incidentally) and people think Brantley is untouchable for whatever reason. But Brantley's splits call for a platoon more than any other lefty on the team aside from Chisenhall.


Love the creative use of Gomes at 3B & it should be considered. Hermie has mentioned (several times) that using Santana in LF could be another avenue to consider. If an OF'er (Stubbs, Brantley or Bourn) needs a day off, perhaps more to recover from a nick, then giving Carlos Santana some time in LF makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure how Jose Ramirez slots into the mix.. any thoughts?

It's the versatility of several players that allowed the Indians to carry Big G.. and he was superb in his role.. More of the same should be on tap for 2014..

btw.. Congrats to the Cardinals on the NL Pennant..done with over 2/3rds of the players on their 25 man roster coming through their own drafts..


I think I'm more open to the idea of Santana in left field than Gomes playing at third. Guess it wont matter either way, we'll still need both to catch. Some people (that dork Hiram) argue that Santana's value is way down if he isn't a catcher, the same argument goes for Gomes too, not to mention he proved to be a really damn good catcher already.


I don't care where Santana's value is, I care about winning. Third is an option but I would put right field over left. Santana has a very strong arm, stronger than any we have for right. I just think Santana is athletic enough to do the job there and with his arm it would negate runners taking advantage and taking extra bases.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:04 am

I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby BrianM » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:45 am

Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.


I don't see Santana in the OF either. Agree about Gomes catching everyday.

If we want a 3B platoon just use Ramirez there or bring in a RH FA who can play the corners.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby BrianM » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:53 am

Honestly, If we were to find someone to platoon with Chiz, I would be happy with someone who is a "glove first" player. I would rather have a guy who can play gold glove caliber defense than a guy who could bat .260 against lefties. I kind of miss Jack Hanahan. Urshela won't be ready to fill this role this year, but hopefully he can fill some type of platoon role in the future so we can get his glove on the field.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Edible14 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:15 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.

The idea is that he is a better platoon partner for Chiz than Aviles, and it would keep his bat in the lineup on his off days. If Gomes continies to hit as he did this year, his bat is much more valuable than Aviles'. The downside is probably Gomes' defense at third, but it is hard to say, having never seen him play there.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:53 am

Edible14 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.

The idea is that he is a better platoon partner for Chiz than Aviles, and it would keep his bat in the lineup on his off days. If Gomes continues to hit as he did this year, his bat is much more valuable than Aviles'. The downside is probably Gomes' defense at third, but it is hard to say, having never seen him play there.


The versatility of the players currently on the roster allow for all these permutations. If Gomes can get out from behind the plate and be an effective 3B w/ a solid RH bat, then that increases his versatility on the club. It can't hurt him either not having to don the tools of ignorance once in a while.. There is no doubt that IF there is a choice the Indians will want to see the Yanimal behind the dish.. By making himself more versatile, (like the Indians have fostered with Carlos Santana), they have essentially reduced the number of position players needed on the 25 man roster. The availability of Mike Aviles and Ryan Raburn for duty as utility players is also enhanced. These guys can play everyday, however, they're better suited in utility roles. By developing Gomes' ability to play 3B, this would make him just like all the Indians position players except Lonnie Chisenhall who can play more than one position..
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:56 am

Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.


Santana has played the OF. Actually played more OF than 3B, 2B and 1B combined in the minors (66 vs 63...played more 2B than 1B if you can believe it). Also got a couple innings at the big league level in the OF in 2012 (though not saying that's reason to put him in the OF). Disagree on him being too slow for the OF. He's obviously not a speedster but there are slower guys playing the OF. I honestly don't see him being any worse than Manny Ramirez was out in the OF. Also feel Santana is a much better athlete than people give him credit for.

Remember too, the Tribe put Santana into MLB games at 1B in 2011 when he had only played 2 games at 1B in the minors (and both were with the Dodgers back in 2008). His lack of experience in the OF shouldn't be a deterrent. Now if he were to play there and just absolutely suck...sure don't continue but still don't see the harm in giving it a shot this winter/spring training. If you still have Bourn in CF and Brantley in LF too, I think you can give up some defense in RF. Not like Choo was that great out there (other than his arm) or Raburn.


I agree, don't move Gomes to 3B. Too valuable behind the plate. That said, wouldn't be opposed to him getting some time there on "off" days if you want to keep his bat in the lineup.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:58 am

daingean wrote:I don't care where Santana's value is, I care about winning. Third is an option but I would put right field over left. Santana has a very strong arm, stronger than any we have for right. I just think Santana is athletic enough to do the job there and with his arm it would negate runners taking advantage and taking extra bases.


+1


Lots of people wanted Willingham 2 years ago to play LF....honestly I'd rather see Santana in the OF than Willingham.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:44 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.


Santana has played the OF. Actually played more OF than 3B, 2B and 1B combined in the minors (66 vs 63...played more 2B than 1B if you can believe it). Also got a couple innings at the big league level in the OF in 2012 (though not saying that's reason to put him in the OF). Disagree on him being too slow for the OF. He's obviously not a speedster but there are slower guys playing the OF. I honestly don't see him being any worse than Manny Ramirez was out in the OF. Also feel Santana is a much better athlete than people give him credit for.

Remember too, the Tribe put Santana into MLB games at 1B in 2011 when he had only played 2 games at 1B in the minors (and both were with the Dodgers back in 2008). His lack of experience in the OF shouldn't be a deterrent. Now if he were to play there and just absolutely suck...sure don't continue but still don't see the harm in giving it a shot this winter/spring training. If you still have Bourn in CF and Brantley in LF too, I think you can give up some defense in RF. Not like Choo was that great out there (other than his arm) or Raburn.


I agree, don't move Gomes to 3B. Too valuable behind the plate. That said, wouldn't be opposed to him getting some time there on "off" days if you want to keep his bat in the lineup.


I think only Hermie and myself are the only ones on here that see value in Santana in right. IMO, a strong arm is one of the best assets for a RF. Sure the RF needs to play defensively (track balls, go back). I think people are putting that catcher label on Santana (too slow) which really isn't the case. Many said the same things about Craig Biggio when he was moved to CF then 2B (he too started behind the plate). I also think a move like this will do wonders for Santana offensively. Plus you do have Bourn and Brantley in the OF to cover ground and reduce the impact of his (perceived) lack of mobility. I think it at least needs to be experimented with especially in winter ball and ST.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby BrianM » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:04 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.


Santana has played the OF. Actually played more OF than 3B, 2B and 1B combined in the minors (66 vs 63...played more 2B than 1B if you can believe it). Also got a couple innings at the big league level in the OF in 2012 (though not saying that's reason to put him in the OF). Disagree on him being too slow for the OF. He's obviously not a speedster but there are slower guys playing the OF. I honestly don't see him being any worse than Manny Ramirez was out in the OF. Also feel Santana is a much better athlete than people give him credit for.

Remember too, the Tribe put Santana into MLB games at 1B in 2011 when he had only played 2 games at 1B in the minors (and both were with the Dodgers back in 2008). His lack of experience in the OF shouldn't be a deterrent. Now if he were to play there and just absolutely suck...sure don't continue but still don't see the harm in giving it a shot this winter/spring training. If you still have Bourn in CF and Brantley in LF too, I think you can give up some defense in RF. Not like Choo was that great out there (other than his arm) or Raburn.


I agree, don't move Gomes to 3B. Too valuable behind the plate. That said, wouldn't be opposed to him getting some time there on "off" days if you want to keep his bat in the lineup.


I think only Hermie and myself are the only ones on here that see value in Santana in right. IMO, a strong arm is one of the best assets for a RF. Sure the RF needs to play defensively (track balls, go back). I think people are putting that catcher label on Santana (too slow) which really isn't the case. Many said the same things about Craig Biggio when he was moved to CF then 2B (he too started behind the plate). I also think a move like this will do wonders for Santana offensively. Plus you do have Bourn and Brantley in the OF to cover ground and reduce the impact of his (perceived) lack of mobility. I think it at least needs to be experimented with especially in winter ball and ST.


These are good arguments. I think Santana could handle the outfield, but I'm still not sure I want him there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Swisher rank as an above average fielder this year in RF? It just makes more sense to me to have Swisher in right and Santana at first. We might as well give Santana a most of the time at first so he can get comfortable and hopefully improve his defense with more experience.

I think another thing that needs to be considered is giving ACab some time at 3rd. If he doesn't get traded this winter, he could be the occasional 3rd baseman against lefties. I'd rather have him there than Aviles, and JRam or Lindor should be able to handle SS when ACab is at 3rd. During all the Cabrera trade rumors last year, I believe there were reports of teams wanting to move him to 3rd, or at least have him change positions, so there must be at least a few people who believe he could handle the spot. The more versatility we have in the infield the better, and I would much rather see Aviles take a more traditional utility role where he is only playing once, maybe twice a week.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby daingean » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:10 pm

BrianM wrote:
daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't want to see Santana in the OF. He's too slow, and he's never played there. He'd be abysmal when it comes to running down long fly balls and taking the proper angles to cut off balls hit in the gaps. He's fine splitting time between 1st base, DH, and catcher.

Gomes is an outstanding defensive catcher, so why would we move him to 3rd base? So Santana can catch? Now we suck defensively at two positions. Gomes should be the everyday catcher and when he needs a day off, give him a day off.


Santana has played the OF. Actually played more OF than 3B, 2B and 1B combined in the minors (66 vs 63...played more 2B than 1B if you can believe it). Also got a couple innings at the big league level in the OF in 2012 (though not saying that's reason to put him in the OF). Disagree on him being too slow for the OF. He's obviously not a speedster but there are slower guys playing the OF. I honestly don't see him being any worse than Manny Ramirez was out in the OF. Also feel Santana is a much better athlete than people give him credit for.

Remember too, the Tribe put Santana into MLB games at 1B in 2011 when he had only played 2 games at 1B in the minors (and both were with the Dodgers back in 2008). His lack of experience in the OF shouldn't be a deterrent. Now if he were to play there and just absolutely suck...sure don't continue but still don't see the harm in giving it a shot this winter/spring training. If you still have Bourn in CF and Brantley in LF too, I think you can give up some defense in RF. Not like Choo was that great out there (other than his arm) or Raburn.


I agree, don't move Gomes to 3B. Too valuable behind the plate. That said, wouldn't be opposed to him getting some time there on "off" days if you want to keep his bat in the lineup.


I think only Hermie and myself are the only ones on here that see value in Santana in right. IMO, a strong arm is one of the best assets for a RF. Sure the RF needs to play defensively (track balls, go back). I think people are putting that catcher label on Santana (too slow) which really isn't the case. Many said the same things about Craig Biggio when he was moved to CF then 2B (he too started behind the plate). I also think a move like this will do wonders for Santana offensively. Plus you do have Bourn and Brantley in the OF to cover ground and reduce the impact of his (perceived) lack of mobility. I think it at least needs to be experimented with especially in winter ball and ST.


These are good arguments. I think Santana could handle the outfield, but I'm still not sure I want him there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Swisher rank as an above average fielder this year in RF? It just makes more sense to me to have Swisher in right and Santana at first. We might as well give Santana a most of the time at first so he can get comfortable and hopefully improve his defense with more experience.

I think another thing that needs to be considered is giving ACab some time at 3rd. If he doesn't get traded this winter, he could be the occasional 3rd baseman against lefties. I'd rather have him there than Aviles, and JRam or Lindor should be able to handle SS when ACab is at 3rd. During all the Cabrera trade rumors last year, I believe there were reports of teams wanting to move him to 3rd, or at least have him change positions, so there must be at least a few people who believe he could handle the spot. The more versatility we have in the infield the better, and I would much rather see Aviles take a more traditional utility role where he is only playing once, maybe twice a week.


A poor first baseman will cost your team more than a mediocre outfielder. I think Swish is better at first. I also am concerned with Swish's shoulder and he's getting to that age where injuries linger. Another thing is that Santana at first wastes his best defensive asset - a strong arm.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:16 pm

daingean wrote:
BrianM wrote:
daingean wrote:I think only Hermie and myself are the only ones on here that see value in Santana in right. IMO, a strong arm is one of the best assets for a RF. Sure the RF needs to play defensively (track balls, go back). I think people are putting that catcher label on Santana (too slow) which really isn't the case. Many said the same things about Craig Biggio when he was moved to CF then 2B (he too started behind the plate). I also think a move like this will do wonders for Santana offensively. Plus you do have Bourn and Brantley in the OF to cover ground and reduce the impact of his (perceived) lack of mobility. I think it at least needs to be experimented with especially in winter ball and ST.


These are good arguments. I think Santana could handle the outfield, but I'm still not sure I want him there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Swisher rank as an above average fielder this year in RF? It just makes more sense to me to have Swisher in right and Santana at first. We might as well give Santana a most of the time at first so he can get comfortable and hopefully improve his defense with more experience.


A poor first baseman will cost your team more than a mediocre outfielder. I think Swish is better at first. I also am concerned with Swish's shoulder and he's getting to that age where injuries linger. Another thing is that Santana at first wastes his best defensive asset - a strong arm.


I'm with daingean here. Sure Swisher would be better defensively than Santana at 1B...but he's a solid defensive 1B. I'd rather have a better guy there especially if you have Chisenhall and Cabrera over on the infield. Plus, while Swisher has in the past been a solid RFer...as he ages, the range is gonna deteriorate. And as daingean said, the bad shoulder with his age....1B is starting to look better and better. Plus, Swisher said that he was told when he signed that he would be playing 1B, he may actually prefer it (not that what he wants should be the main issue but still). I think the defense you lose in the OF with Santana over Swisher is a lot less than what you gain with Swisher at 1B vs Santana.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:19 pm

BrianM wrote:I think another thing that needs to be considered is giving ACab some time at 3rd. If he doesn't get traded this winter, he could be the occasional 3rd baseman against lefties. I'd rather have him there than Aviles, and JRam or Lindor should be able to handle SS when ACab is at 3rd. During all the Cabrera trade rumors last year, I believe there were reports of teams wanting to move him to 3rd, or at least have him change positions, so there must be at least a few people who believe he could handle the spot. The more versatility we have in the infield the better, and I would much rather see Aviles take a more traditional utility role where he is only playing once, maybe twice a week.


I was really against this for the longest time...but it may not be the worst idea if you can't find any value on the trade market for him. I don't think you move him to start the year as I think Chisenhall at 3B and Cabrera at SS is a better offense than Aviles in there everyday...but if Chiz struggles or if Lindor is ready quickly, I wouldn't completely be against the switch of Cabrera to 3B. Tribe did move Peralta to 3B early on in a season. Was a completely different coaching staff but there is some precedent there.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:46 am

this might fit better here...

Tim Lincecum has resigned with the SF Giants.. a two year $ 17.5 MM AAV contract. Seems like a high AAV, but, way better than a decade of double digit millions.. Crazy contract?. maybe.. maybe not.. The impact of the AAV on Ubaldo's contract has to be considered with this signing. There has also been comments that the lack of clarity regarding Ubaldo's 2014 option, is not an issue. There is no equivocation. Ubaldo can (and probably will) decline the 2014 option at a time suitable to him.

Even with the Lincecum signing at an unusually high AAV, the Indians need to make extending Ubaldo one of their two priority signings of this off season....
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:41 pm

Hard to say what impact the Lincecum signing will have on Ubaldo. Definitely seems like way too much IMO for Lincecum based on how he's looked the last 3 seasons. Ubaldo in all likelihood will have a draft pick attached to him though so that will hurt him...but still think he gets at least what Lincecum got (total salary) and probably now into the $40M range. Whether that's over 3 years or 4 years we'll see. Not sure the Tribe will go as high as 3yr/$40M for him but never say never. Really think that even with the draft pick, Ubaldo may be able to get an Edwin Jackson type deal. Think we'll see seeing Ubaldo pitching in another uniform in 2014....unless he gives the Tribe a bit of a hometown discount.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:38 pm

In Paul Hoynes latest bit of ignorance he points out that the Indians are unlikely to sign Ubaldo to a long term deal, not news. He then also goes on to say it's not likely the tender him a qualifying offer because he might actually accept it. Also not news, just complete horseshit.

I will be stunned if the Indians don't make him the offer, everyone knows Ubaldo and his people are fools if they accept a 1 year deal, especially in this FA market.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:40 am

GoTribe028 wrote:In Paul Hoynes latest bit of ignorance he points out that the Indians are unlikely to sign Ubaldo to a long term deal, not news. He then also goes on to say it's not likely the tender him a qualifying offer because he might actually accept it. Also not news, just complete horseshit.

I will be stunned if the Indians don't make him the offer, everyone knows Ubaldo and his people are fools if they accept a 1 year deal, especially in this FA market.


I think the worst bit was that he said the Tribe wouldn't even make a multi-year offer to Ubaldo because of the Lincecum deal.

I mean, sure that deal could drive up the price but you still can easily make an offer to Ubaldo. And yeah, I see no way the Tribe does not extend a QO. "Worst" case he accepts it...and you pay him $14M next year. You were willing to pay him $8M (his option). That extra $6M is not chump change but it's very reasonable and the Tribe can afford it (may have to make some concessions elsewhere though).
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:49 am

GoTribe028 wrote:In Paul Hoynes latest bit of ignorance he points out that the Indians are unlikely to sign Ubaldo to a long term deal, not news. He then also goes on to say it's not likely the tender him a qualifying offer because he might actually accept it. Also not news, just complete horseshit.

I will be stunned if the Indians don't make him the offer, everyone knows Ubaldo and his people are fools if they accept a 1 year deal, especially in this FA market.


It's a typical half baked/half old/half innuendo story by Paul Hoynes. He doesn't say what the Indians should do.. will do.. have to do. He glosses over making his position clear and allows the readers the chance to come to whatever conclusion they want. That is..if the Indians DO make a QO, Hoynes presented the QO as a question.. IOW, he can't be wrong as that's more important than being right.. Pretty cynical/sad/pathetic way to make a living.. As you've correctly stated, none of what he's written is new or newsworthy. A rehash of a rehash.. The article is written so the knuckle draggers and mouth breathers can list comments about why some action/activity won't happen. Someone names KR_Indians had a pretty conclusive comment. Otherwise, it was a lot of the same..
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:06 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:In Paul Hoynes latest bit of ignorance he points out that the Indians are unlikely to sign Ubaldo to a long term deal, not news. He then also goes on to say it's not likely the tender him a qualifying offer because he might actually accept it. Also not news, just complete horseshit.

I will be stunned if the Indians don't make him the offer, everyone knows Ubaldo and his people are fools if they accept a 1 year deal, especially in this FA market.


It's a typical half baked/half old/half innuendo story by Paul Hoynes. He doesn't say what the Indians should do.. will do.. have to do. He glosses over making his position clear and allows the readers the chance to come to whatever conclusion they want. That is..if the Indians DO make a QO, Hoynes presented the QO as a question.. IOW, he can't be wrong as that's more important than being right.. Pretty cynical/sad/pathetic way to make a living.. As you've correctly stated, none of what he's written is new or newsworthy. A rehash of a rehash.. The article is written so the knuckle draggers and mouth breathers can list comments about why some action/activity won't happen. Someone names KR_Indians had a pretty conclusive comment. Otherwise, it was a lot of the same..


Hoynes is trolling us. I'm done. TRYING to give Cleveland media another chance but I can't do it. Between here, legit blogs like LGT and mlb.com reporters Castrovince/Bastian the Cleveland beat reporters are pretty much all beyond useless.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:40 am

btw.. in hoynes' next posting.. some interview / podcast.. something (I'm not sure) he made the statement that the Indians would love to bring Ubaldo back on a QO or extended contract.. So, if you're a writer for the ONLY paper in town and you go on record stating Player U should be brought back and should not be brought back.. what exactly are you saying?...

uh huh..
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:42 am

here is the MLB Trade Rumors Link to the Off Season Outlook for the Indians:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/o ... dians.html

The details found within are pretty much a rehash of Andrew/Tony/Jeff/Winkin/Blinkin/Nod who've written most of the comments.. and have expounded on them thoroughly.. In short.. nothing new, newsworthy, but, still, resource for those who like to read that sort of site...

Thoughts..
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:51 am

GeronimoSon wrote:here is the MLB Trade Rumors Link to the Off Season Outlook for the Indians:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/o ... dians.html

The details found within are pretty much a rehash of Andrew/Tony/Jeff/Winkin/Blinkin/Nod who've written most of the comments.. and have expounded on them thoroughly.. In short.. nothing new, newsworthy, but, still, resource for those who like to read that sort of site...

Thoughts..


Yeah, not a whole lot of new information there. A decent piece nevertheless.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:27 pm

The Six Part Plan.. and how it gets done..It is paid for by an increase in attendance: 1.5 MM fans at Progressive Field rises to 2.25 MM fans. St an average ticket price of $ 20.16, $ 15.1 MM additional revenues are generated. The National TV Contracts and the local TV contracts also kick in significant revenues making the below not only possible, but realistic. The Indians just need to DO IT..

# 1 is the FA SP's: Ubaldo and Kazmir: Total Dollar Value for 2014 = $ 24 MM, up $ 15 - $ 16 from 2013...

# 2 is Asdrubal.. trade to the Dodgers or the Mets or the Yankees.. If it's the Dodgers.. then a package that includes more than one and less than all of Corey Seager, Alex Santana, Chris Anderson and Julio Urias needs to be part of the deal. If it's the Mets, then one of Cesar Puelo and Domingo Tapia along with one other player currently on the mets 40 man needs to be included.. If it's the Yankees. then a package that includes some "number" of prospects such as Rafael De Paula, Mark Montgomery..etc. It's hard to say who in the Yankee system is really worth acquiring as almost all their prospects are shrouded in hype, moreso than most other ML systems.

# 3 is acquisition of a middle of the order bat via Free Agency (least likely), trade (could be any number of hitters) and possibly a promotion from within. Does Jesus Aguilar's Venezuelan Odyssey translate alllll the way up to the ML's. doubtful, but's it's possible by later in the season?..

# 4 is Rebuild/Fix the pen.. That could include the resigning/extending of C Perez & Joe Smith. What would be ideal would be to sign these two guys to a revenue neutral pair of contracts. That is, with the same $$$ as 2013.. less for CP, more for Joe Smith.. Realistically, this is going to cost the Indians about $ 3 - $ 4 MM more

# 5 Bench rebuild.. Consider bringing back one of Franklin Gutierrez as a RH hitter or Grady Sizemore as a LH hitter. The rest of the spots are more than covered with the Ryan Raburns/Yanimal/Aviles' of the squad..

# 6 Extend Justin Masterson. He's the goods and should be rewarded for being what he is.. This change should be revenue neutral in 2014, however, it should rise significantly in 2015.

Will all six of these elements happen. Best guess, the added dollar value for 1 through 6 will be about $ 20 MM IDK.. seems unlikely and a lot of money, but, after the 2013 season.. how can anything.. ANYTHING not be possible?..

Thoughts.. other issues?
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:26 pm

Couple decisions already made...

Chris Perez has been released.

Jason Giambi has been resigned to a minor league deal.

Also got Colt Hynes from the Padres for cash.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:40 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Couple decisions already made...

Chris Perez has been released.

Jason Giambi has been resigned to a minor league deal.

Also got Colt Hynes from the Padres for cash.


Shocking?.. not to some.. Looks like a "good riddance" type move.. Sad way to end his career here, not undeserved..

Colt Hynes = a nobody.. other than being a lefty, he's nothing special.. Maybe Mick can teach Colt how to NOT put every one of his pitches in the middle of the plate, about mid thigh high with not much movement and a sign that says HIT ME HARD...
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:45 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Couple decisions already made...

Chris Perez has been released.

Jason Giambi has been resigned to a minor league deal.

Also got Colt Hynes from the Padres for cash.


Shocking?.. not to some.. Looks like a "good riddance" type move.. Sad way to end his career here, not undeserved..

Colt Hynes = a nobody.. other than being a lefty, he's nothing special.. Maybe Mick can teach Colt how to NOT put every one of his pitches in the middle of the plate, about mid thigh high with not much movement and a sign that says HIT ME HARD...


I don't know anyone that is shocked by the Perez thing....

Never were gonna pay him $9-10M. Only maybe was some team losing their mind and trading for him...but sadly, no one is that dumb.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Edible14 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:08 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Colt Hynes = a nobody.. other than being a lefty, he's nothing special.. Maybe Mick can teach Colt how to NOT put every one of his pitches in the middle of the plate, about mid thigh high with not much movement and a sign that says HIT ME HARD...


Pretty much. His numbers at the major league level weren't very good, but you can do a fair amount of hand-waving considering it was just 17 IP. But realistically, he was getting his first shot at 28 years old, is a lefty-only guy (he throws his slider more than his fastball, and his changeup isn't even an average offering). The AAA numbers are intriguing, over 3 years in AAA his K/9 is 12.35, B/9 is 1.91, (K/BB being 6.4) HR/9 being .62. But his surface numbers weren't great, partially because of a ridiculously high BABIP (his lowest in AAA was .344 during his shortest stay).

He's not a terrible candidate to get better just based on regression. So I can see why you'd take a flier on the guy. Especially considering the abject trainwreck that Hagadone and Barnes were last year.

As for Perez... sad how it ends. But the writing was on the wall. Personally, I hope he signs with the Tigers. Plenty of ex-Indians over there, would fit his mentality, they've got the money to waste on him, they've got the need at reliever, and I'd love to see Perez blowing saves for them instead of us. The media and fan reactions would be priceless.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:39 am

Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Colt Hynes = a nobody.. other than being a lefty, he's nothing special.. Maybe Mick can teach Colt how to NOT put every one of his pitches in the middle of the plate, about mid thigh high with not much movement and a sign that says HIT ME HARD...


Pretty much. His numbers at the major league level weren't very good, but you can do a fair amount of hand-waving considering it was just 17 IP. But realistically, he was getting his first shot at 28 years old, is a lefty-only guy (he throws his slider more than his fastball, and his changeup isn't even an average offering). The AAA numbers are intriguing, over 3 years in AAA his K/9 is 12.35, B/9 is 1.91, (K/BB being 6.4) HR/9 being .62. But his surface numbers weren't great, partially because of a ridiculously high BABIP (his lowest in AAA was .344 during his shortest stay).

He's not a terrible candidate to get better just based on regression. So I can see why you'd take a flier on the guy. Especially considering the abject trainwreck that Hagadone and Barnes were last year.

As for Perez... sad how it ends. But the writing was on the wall. Personally, I hope he signs with the Tigers. Plenty of ex-Indians over there, would fit his mentality, they've got the money to waste on him, they've got the need at reliever, and I'd love to see Perez blowing saves for them instead of us. The media and fan reactions would be priceless.


..and the tiger fans are accustomed to watching their closer blow games, so CP would fit right in..

Hagadone probably has one more go at becoming a ML pitcher. Straight 95 MPH fastballs in the middle of the plate get hit hard.. He has done nothing to distinguish himself given the opportunity to be that much needed match up left the Indians craved and acquired (Scrabble)..

Barnes.. is another case, imho. He's got a deceptive delivery that comes from many moving parts. He's sort of Ubaldo Lite in that regard. He's got enough of an arm that the Indians will spend the time to make sure whatever decision they make with him is the right one..

...I don't know anyone that is shocked by the Perez thing....


You should leave your mom's basement some times.. :lol
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby theshow » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:11 am

I just wanted to say, I will stop being an Indians fan if they are stupid enough to not extend Ubaldo a qualifying offer. Even if you dont think you can pay it, there are about 15 teams would would line up to trade for Ubaldo on a 1 year 14.1 Million dollar deal. If you don't think you can afford him, you sign and trade him. But you do not let him walk for nothing!
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:29 am

theshow wrote:I just wanted to say, I will stop being an Indians fan if they are stupid enough to not extend Ubaldo a qualifying offer. Even if you dont think you can pay it, there are about 15 teams would would line up to trade for Ubaldo on a 1 year 14.1 Million dollar deal. If you don't think you can afford him, you sign and trade him. But you do not let him walk for nothing!


I'll definitely still be a Tribe fan even if they didn't extend him a QO...but agree, they absolutely should. They can afford the $14.1M actually so it really makes zero sense to me not to.
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:26 pm

Indians have officially extended a QO to Ubaldo. He now has one week to accept or decline.


Ubaldo was the only free agent the Tribe extended a QO to. Nothing shocking though still thought there was a small chance on Kazmir. I would have though can understand why they didn't. Would have been an overpay (though maybe not by a ton) plus there would have been a chance (however small) of both Ubaldo and Kaz accepting...which really would have been hard for the Tribe to absorb financially (doable but Cabrera and Stubbs would be gone and no bat really brought in to replace them).
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:04 pm

Rafael Furcal interest comment is kind of intriguing.. not sure why.. Could be the man-crush the Indians seemed to have had on him..or something is up..
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Re: Decisions that Need to Be Faced

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:55 am

Fitting in with previous discussions regarding defense/UZR...etc.. An interesting article about the Indians rise to wild card and near division championship included the following:

....Cleveland's run prevention problem in 2012 was an atrocious Indians defense that finished dead last in the American League in defensive runs saved and ultimate zone rating. But despite swapping out Shin-Soo Choo and the two-headed monster of Shelley Duncan and Johnny Damon for Michael Bourn and Drew Stubbs (essentially giving the Indians three center fielders in the outfield), the club's defense improved by, at best, 10 runs in 2013 according to the advanced defensive metrics that are available....


In other words.. the use of advanced defensive metrics have a value defined from 2012 to 2013 for the Indians.. it's 10 runs for the entire season...probably an overstatement of the value of advanced defensive metrics...

Here is the article: http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/63876746/
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