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Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:11 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:I have a great idea for tomorrow's lineup. Let's rest Aviles!


Oh my - Aviles must be tired. The Chiz kid science project continues. IMO there are times Francina is plain STUPID.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:20 pm

Indians getting beaten to a pulp 5-0.. off goes the game and on goes Two and a Half Men.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:25 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Indians getting beaten to a pulp 5-0.. off goes the game and on goes Two and a Half Men.


Breaking Bad marathon on The Netflix.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:27 pm

Hearing early word Masterson COULD have a torn oblique.. IF that's the case, stick a fork in this season because it'll be over, as will Masty's season. I hope the reports are wrong.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:43 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Hearing early word Masterson COULD have a torn oblique.. IF that's the case, stick a fork in this season because it'll be over, as will Masty's season. I hope the reports are wrong.


Yes.. the initial reports are not encouraging at all.. Masterson appeared to be pretty upset about his plight.. Not good..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:17 pm

We have TWO hits against Bud Norris... TWO!
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ASUTribefan » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:22 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Indians getting beaten to a pulp 5-0.. off goes the game and on goes Two and a Half Men.

Yeah your a fan :rolleyes
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:26 pm

ASUTribefan wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Indians getting beaten to a pulp 5-0.. off goes the game and on goes Two and a Half Men.

Yeah your a fan :rolleyes


Says the troll who said, "no one should waste their time on this garbage anymore."
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ASUTribefan » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:32 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Indians getting beaten to a pulp 5-0.. off goes the game and on goes Two and a Half Men.

Yeah your a fan :rolleyes


Says the troll who said, "no one should waste their time on this garbage anymore."


and yet i still attended more then half the home games this year and hour away. But then again you're the same troll who cries and cant ban anyone :lol
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:42 pm

ASUTribefan wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:Indians getting beaten to a pulp 5-0.. off goes the game and on goes Two and a Half Men.

Yeah your a fan :rolleyes


Says the troll who said, "no one should waste their time on this garbage anymore."


and yet i still attended more then half the home games this year and hour away. But then again you're the same troll who cries and cant ban anyone :lol


Well, well, well.. Guess what I found out? Through tracing your IP.. You're our good old buddy SwisherBuck who has already been banned once. How'd that ban go for ya, bud? I've let Tony know who you are. :-)

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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:45 pm

I knew it was someone from the past back to haunt the board.....
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:12 am

SMH inre: SwisherBuck... A fraud/incognito poster on a forum for the Indians.. pretty pathetic

Sad news about Justin Masterson.. It's looking like his season could be done. The big righty may be watching the rest of the way. The Indians will miss him every fifth day. His replacement yesterday, Guilmet, isn't a ML pitcher. His FB is about 2 feet short. The arm slot and downward plane on his pitches will allow him to be effective for short stints against teams that haven't seen him before, however, his stuff just isn't ML quality..

The relief corp in general, yesterday was pretty ineffective.. Guilmet, Hang-a-bomb (yeah, I stole this), and Scrabble combined to give up six runs in 4 innings pitched.. and, let in all inherited runners these three guys faced..

Perhaps, the only good news on the day was the results from Anaheim... where the Angels took the measure of the Rays, thereby not costing the Indians any ground in the standings. Both the Yankees and Orioles are now in front of the Indians in the chase for the last wild card spot. The Royals, on the strength of winning 7 of their last 10 games, including two over the weekend, rejoin the chase:

+3 1/2 .........Oakland
0 ...............Tampa
-2 ............. Baltimore
-2 1/2..........New York
-3 1/2 .........Cleveland
-4 1/2 .........Kansas City

Each of the six teams will have at least 25 games left to play after today respectively.. And the fun definitely continues...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:32 pm

Strained left oblique for Masty.. will miss AT LEAST one start.

UPDATED: Now reports saying AT LEAST two starts.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:31 am

A.Zajac wrote:Strained left oblique for Masty.. will miss AT LEAST one start.

UPDATED: Now reports saying AT LEAST two starts.


Never good hearing your best pitcher has an oblique issue but definitely rather be hearing "strained" versus "torn"...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:48 am

Interesting (scary) 9th inning but a big win last night. Still only 3.5 out of the wild card. With a win tonight (and some help from Chicago) could be tied for first team outside the wild card spot with only a single .500 club left on the schedule...

With how bad this team has looked the last 2 months or so that's a minor miracle.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:06 am

You you think about it, the Indians starting staff has not been whole since early June when McAllister went down. McAllister comes back and Kluber goes down....Kluber comes back and Masterson goes down. This starting rotation is a huge reason why there should be a lot of positivity going into next season, regardless of what they do with the offense.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:44 am

The Indians continue to surpassed last year's win total with their W tonight. There are 24 games left in the season and they currently trail the Tampa Bay Rays by 3 1/2 games for the second wild card game. If this was April 2nd, and Indians fans were given the opportunity to fast forward to this situation, an overwhelming majority would be thrilled to be in the hunt for a playoff spot this late and this close in the 2013 season.

Tony is correct.. The Indians have a lot to be positive about regarding the pitching staff. There are at least 7 guys who can be considered (9 if you include Kazmir resigning & Ubaldo if he picks up his half of the mutual option) as realistic options for the starting staff in 2014: Masterson, Ubaldo, McAllister, Kluber, Kazmir. Salazar, Tomlin, Bauer & Carrasco. The pen has plenty of arms as well.. With some good health and this could be the most "together" group the Indians have had since the 2007 season...

Chris Perez.. what's with all the drama?. how about a boring outing once in a while????!!???

Last night's games saw Tampa beat Oakland, the Orioles exchange places with the Yankees & everyone else in the chase, win:

+2 1/2 .........Oakland
0 ...............Tampa
-2 1/2......... New York
-3 ..............Baltimore
-3 1/2 .........Cleveland
-4 1/2 .........Kansas City

7 Games separate top to bottom in this race.. Each of the six teams will have at least 24 games left to play after today respectively.. And the fun definitely continues..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Ubaldo is gone next year, absolutely. As Tony has been explaining on Twitter, he will be commanding a 3+ year deal with probably more that $10M/year (because the market for pitching is stupid). The Indians will need to pick up a veteran starter I think. You can go with Masterson/Kluber/McAllister/Salazar as your top 4, but I'm not so sure about penciling in the likes of Carlos Carrasco to the 5th spot. I'd like to see the Indians either re-sign Kazmir or make another low-cost signing like him to fill that spot. Allow Carrasco to try to earn that spot, or be put in long relief.

Tomlin and Bauer aren't so much "realistic options" to start the year. Tomlin wasn't that great before he got hurt, and will need some time to get his control back. And Bauer needs a lot more work before we think about putting him in a rotation. I'd like one or two veterans there to "push" Carrasco and to perhaps provide insurance should any of our top 4 get hurt in ST.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:53 pm

I would never sign up for three years of U at $10M plus per. The team that signs him should trade for Callaway. I love his success - but I have never seen anyone walk the edge of disaster so well.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:04 pm

Ubaldo is gonna be an interesting guy to follow this winter with regards to his market value. I think the Tribe will pick up his $8M option...but Ubaldo very well could decline it. Question then is do you risk a qualifying offer? $14M is too much for Ubaldo IMO but if his agent thinks he can really get him 3/$30M on the open market maybe he would decline it. I highly doubt it but never thought Rafael Soriano would have declined the Yanks offer of arby...so never say never I guess...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:08 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I get your point but as Kubel exits te 40 man later, it opens a spot for Carlos Moncrief or Jesus Anguilar to be added.
Or it creates a spot to re-add on of those on the 60 day DL.


If Kubel were to have a great month of September (and hopefully October) with the Tribe, I would not be too surprised if they went ahead and picked up his option for next year. $7.5M isn't bad for him provided he can bounce back. Tribe could really use a lefty power bat in the middle of the lineup with how they have struggled with RH pitching this year.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:18 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Ubaldo is gonna be an interesting guy to follow this winter with regards to his market value. I think the Tribe will pick up his $8M option...but Ubaldo very well could decline it. Question then is do you risk a qualifying offer? $14M is too much for Ubaldo IMO but if his agent thinks he can really get him 3/$30M on the open market maybe he would decline it. I highly doubt it but never thought Rafael Soriano would have declined the Yanks offer of arby...so never say never I guess...


One of the downsides to a QO for a guy like Ubaldo, especially with the prospective quality of 2014 Rule IV draft, is the forfeiture of that team's first round pick. If nothing else, it limits the selection of teams that might be willing to take on the "U" for three years or more. It might also limit him to teams that have their first round pick protected. At the end of the day, the Indians could do worse with a one year/$ 14 MM deal for Ubaldo if he elects the Tribe's QO. Otherwise, an addition pick in this draft between the first and second rounds.. would be nice..

So.. the chances are.. a QO and a pick..

or

a QO and one more year of the U?..

sounds like a "win win" to me...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:50 pm

The Indians are pretty cash-strapped as it is for next year. I can't see them risking a QO unless they knew he'd decline it, or unless they were planning on non-tendering Perez/trading ACab.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby indians1 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:29 pm

You just have to go back and look at the Choo trade and the disasterous signings of swisher and bourn.

All the people that want to say that we had only 1 more year with choo and he was going to leave us. We heard how his defense is so poor. Cincinnati has found a way to keep winning despite his defense. And he has an OPS of over .850 while swisher and bourn are hovering around .700. Even if he left after this year, how much would he have helped this offense.? Had we kept choo and we still could have signed Bourn. or gone with swisher. signing 1 of the 2 this past offseason was bad but to sign 2 bad contracts is going to hamstring this organization.

Does anybody know how much the indians were offering Choo in previous years?

What makes things worse is Trevor Bauer was a complete disaster.

Somehow the indians are in contention this year and hopefully they can find a way to win that 2nd wildcard spot. The problem with this team is what Edible 14 says in that we are cash-strapped.

How do we improve the offense?. Carlos Santana is a 2 or 3 month player who disappears the rest of the season. Jason Kipnis has been similar in that he has had 2 good months. I like Kipnis but you can't expect to compete year in and year out if jason Kipnis is the best player on your team.

the swisher deal is going to cripple this organization. And we are stuck with him for possibly 4 more years after this. O-H-I-O !!!

People can call me negative but these are the facts. There is a reason that we had a sub.3.50 ERA and had a losing record in August. The pitching has been better than expected and that is the saving grace.

I just don't know how you look at the indians offseason from last year and not call it a disaster. Every one of those big contracts (including reynolds and myers) have just been awful. Kazmir and Aviles and Rayburn have been good but they are not long term solutions and you can't count on them to be productive every year.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:40 pm

The major problem in FA this coming off-season is the pitching market is bone dry. Let's say Ubaldo walks as does Kazmr... I would imagine Salazar takes one spot.. but it's somewhat scary to guess who might take the other. I'm not sure how much I trust Bauer at this juncture.

Offensively... we need a third baseman. There's no way around that. Possibly right field too because I've never been sold on Stubbs.

Carlos Beltran might be on the market, but I'd imagine out of our price range. Marlon Byrd but I think he's somewhat of a fluke. Nelson Cruz but PED questions... I think Corey Hart, but he can never stay healthy. Kendry Morales but you'd have to stick him at DH.. Michael Morse I guess but.. consistency is a concern. I believe Hunter Pence might be a FA, that would be interesting. But the 3B market is bone dry.. would have to solve that via trade.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Tondo » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:50 am

Well, Swisher and Bourn don't look like good signings now and they could come back to bite them in a couple of years, but they're hardly the reason this team is failing. If anything they've come short to put the team over the top, if that was the expectation level (which is debatable), but overall they've been AVG starting players for their respective roles, especially considering their defense. Ever thought that the bump on defense contributed to the emergence of the pitching? I'd say those two have contributed to stabilize this team from a below AVG one to an above AVG one with their AVG play. I think that's fair to say.
That said, I am pretty confident that both Swisher and Bourn can bounce back and have another good season or two the next 2-3 seasons. Both have slumped since August, but were pretty solid for the most part the months before. How does everone's fav Willingham's contract look right now? or Kubel's? It happens in FA, you overpay some on "names" and you hit value jackpots on underrated ones (Raburn).

I agree that Choo's bat would have looked really good this season, but remember that he is the Reds' leadoff hitter, so no guarantee his numbers would hold up if he hit cleanup for the Tribe. But all that is just hindsight, as most on here were pretty happy with getting Bauer for Choo at the time of the trade.

Overall, I'd still rate this offseason above AVG, as the additions of Kazmir, Gomes, Aviles and Raburn (combined 116 RBIs in ~720 ABs) more than make up for the minus value on Bourn, Swisher, Myers and Reynolds. Those 8 players represent ~36mil of the payroll for 2013, which is 4.5mil on AVG, that's ok. Next season this number will be 34mil for only Bourn, Swisher, Gomes, Aviles and Raburn. They will have to be creative and/or safe payroll somewhere else.

My plan would be to let CP, Albers, Giambi, Hill, Stubbs, Ubaldo and Kazmir walk in FA. Any deal with them would be minus value sooner or later. I would try to re-sign one of Stubbs or J.Smith, but would have no problem letting both of them go too. Use the system's bullpen depth (CC Lee, Wood, Adams, Guilmet, Price, Crockett...and maybe Pestano returns to old form, shouldn't command too much in ARB1 to find out) to reload the bullpen from within and on the cheap. I'd keep ACab for the start of next season, as long as no capable starting SS is signed in FA. Don't rush Lindor. Aviles only has plus value as super-sub.

I don't get the angst regarding our SP as the top 4 are set and looking good for next season with Masterson/Salazar as the 1/2 and Kluber/McAllister as 3/4. Of course some regression could happen, but that could happen to anyone (ask the Phillies about Halladay) and their success seems for real and supported by all kinds of stats/peripherals.
For the 5th spot I'd be pretty comfortable to let it play out between Carrasco, House, Tomlin, cheap injury/reclamation FA and Bauer (you never know how he looks next ST, he's still very young and he has the stuff, right?). Especially Tomlin is a very good safety net to have should the upside guys come up short (again). I consider him a capable no5 SP.

All that would at least ensure that the payroll stays roughly the same as 2013 without much projected regression (maybe bullpen, maybe 5th SP, maybe Raburn/Gomes) and plenty of upside (Salazar, maybe bullpen, maybe 5th SP, closer to career AVGs with Swisher/Bourn, maybe JRam?). The downside is the 3B and corner OF "holes" remain. Stubbs and especially Chisenhall are platoon bats at best, that should be clear by now. There's no viable in house solution for that.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:46 am

Eh, I'm not terribly concerned right now about Bourn and Swisher. Swisher is probably under-appreciated by stats defensively (UZR/TZR/any used component in WAR usually doesn't factor in throw receiving, which is most of a 1B's job). They're both above-average for their position, as much as people like to bag on them because everyone is being negative right now. Swisher and Bourn aren't the problem with the team. Neither is Carlos Santana, for that matter.

The problem is Chisenhall and Cabrera (who now is a below-replacement level player). Another issue is that we continue to give critical at-bats to Jason Giambi, who will likely finish the season below the mendoza line. And a big problem all year is that there's nobody in the bullpen you can count on. The last week or so is troubling, offensive-wise, but it's a tiny part of a larger season where plenty of chances have been squandered by the usual suspects.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:34 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Ubaldo is gonna be an interesting guy to follow this winter with regards to his market value. I think the Tribe will pick up his $8M option...but Ubaldo very well could decline it. Question then is do you risk a qualifying offer? $14M is too much for Ubaldo IMO but if his agent thinks he can really get him 3/$30M on the open market maybe he would decline it. I highly doubt it but never thought Rafael Soriano would have declined the Yanks offer of arby...so never say never I guess...


One of the downsides to a QO for a guy like Ubaldo, especially with the prospective quality of 2014 Rule IV draft, is the forfeiture of that team's first round pick. If nothing else, it limits the selection of teams that might be willing to take on the "U" for three years or more. It might also limit him to teams that have their first round pick protected. At the end of the day, the Indians could do worse with a one year/$ 14 MM deal for Ubaldo if he elects the Tribe's QO. Otherwise, an addition pick in this draft between the first and second rounds.. would be nice..

So.. the chances are.. a QO and a pick..

or

a QO and one more year of the U?..

sounds like a "win win" to me...


Another option would be Ubaldo declining the QO...and then running into the same (or worse) issue that Kyle Lohse ran into. As you said, teams may not want to give up a 1st rounder for Ubaldo (I sure wouldn't). Could overplay his hand and the Tribe could get a decent deal on him, maybe 2 year, $15M or even a 1 year deal around the option.

Still think the most likely outcome should the Tribe offer him a qualfying offer would be Ubaldo accepting it. Tribe may not be able to afford $14M though for just Ubaldo (though if they move some money around, maybe).
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:37 am

The Indians came out and "punched" O's starter Zach Britton in the mouth with a pair of RISP hits..

The Bourn "single" (let's say that PFP will be part of the O's re-learning experience in the coming days) was all about the speed.. Swisher with the good batting eye and Kipnis with the savvy bunt.. loaded the bases without having a single ball leave the infield. It was a beautiful thing..too bad only one run could be scored from that..

Welcome back Ragin Raburn and nice to see the Yanimal putting up good at bats..

Z-Mac was throwing a lot of fastballs.. His breaking ball & change up were not getting over the plate, but Yan kept calling for them and kept getting shaken off.. Trusting his stuff is the same issue Jake Westbrook had around the same time in his career..there's a lesson in there somewhere..

Swisher's inability to catch the ball in the dirt on Z-Mac's pick off is inexcusable. Either fall down in front of the ball or catch it ! No more of this "ole' shit"..

Chris Perez.. thanks for the boring outing...and Bourn's diving catch to end it, was okay to spectacular..

Last night's games saw Tampa win 3-1 over the Halos, Oakland win thereby keeping their share of the first wild card, but, now tied with the Rangers for the AL West, the Orioles fall behind the Yankees & us.. leaving:

+2 1/2 .........Oakland/Texas
0 ...............Tampa
-2 1/2......... New York
-3 1/2 .........Cleveland
-4 ..............Baltimore
-5 1/2 .........Kansas City

8 Games separate top to bottom in this race.. Each of the seven teams will have at least 23 games left to play after today respectively.. And the fun definitely continues..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:05 am

indians1 wrote:You just have to go back and look at the Choo trade and the disasterous signings of swisher and bourn.

All the people that want to say that we had only 1 more year with choo and he was going to leave us. We heard how his defense is so poor. Cincinnati has found a way to keep winning despite his defense. And he has an OPS of over .850 while swisher and bourn are hovering around .700. Even if he left after this year, how much would he have helped this offense.? Had we kept choo and we still could have signed Bourn. or gone with swisher. signing 1 of the 2 this past offseason was bad but to sign 2 bad contracts is going to hamstring this organization.

Does anybody know how much the indians were offering Choo in previous years?

What makes things worse is Trevor Bauer was a complete disaster.

Somehow the indians are in contention this year and hopefully they can find a way to win that 2nd wildcard spot. The problem with this team is what Edible 14 says in that we are cash-strapped.

How do we improve the offense?. Carlos Santana is a 2 or 3 month player who disappears the rest of the season. Jason Kipnis has been similar in that he has had 2 good months. I like Kipnis but you can't expect to compete year in and year out if jason Kipnis is the best player on your team.

the swisher deal is going to cripple this organization. And we are stuck with him for possibly 4 more years after this. O-H-I-O !!!

People can call me negative but these are the facts. There is a reason that we had a sub.3.50 ERA and had a losing record in August. The pitching has been better than expected and that is the saving grace.

I just don't know how you look at the indians offseason from last year and not call it a disaster. Every one of those big contracts (including reynolds and myers) have just been awful. Kazmir and Aviles and Rayburn have been good but they are not long term solutions and you can't count on them to be productive every year.


Not sure how you can say both Swisher and Bourn are hovering around the .700 OPS mark. Swisher's OPS is .726; whereas, Bourn's is .659. Nearly a 70pt difference. Bourn's OPS is now lower than Stubbs's...

I wouldn't call the Choo trade bad yet. We'd be a better offensive team this year had we held on to Choo and not signed Bourn (Choo is a much, much, much better leadoff hitter than Bourn)...but long-term I still think that Choo trade can (and will) work out. Bauer has struggled this year but still way too early to write him off. Plus there were other pieces included in the deal. Donald has been DFAed....Sipp has been DFAed...Lars Anderson....DFAed more times than one can remember.

Tribe meanwhile got not only Bauer, but Drew Stubbs (solid 1 WAR player/platoon guy...who is hitting/running better than Bourn), Matt Albers (solid though unspectacular reliever), and Shaw (Allen gets most of the love from the young guys, but Shaw has been very good for the Tribe this year). IMO this has been a rare 3-team deal that has worked out pretty well for all 3 clubs involved. Bauer definitely needs to have a bounceback year next season for the Tribe, but the kid is still only 22 (will turn 23 over winter). Not like he's some 25 or 26 year old that struggled in AAA. McAllister struggled mightitly himself in 2010 in AAA (his age 22 season), which is how the Tribe was able to get him so cheap. He repeated the level at 23 and found himself in the rotation full-time during his age 24. While I hope Bauer is able to make himself a mainstay in the Tribe rotation next year (age 23 season), I don't think it's the end of the world or makes the Choo trade a disaster if he needs extra time. Think part of the problem is too many people were saying Bauer was MLB ready this past winter...he simply wasn't. And just because he wasn't MLB ready, doesn't mean he can't be a dominate #1/#2 in a couple years.


As far as Santana...he had 1 bad month (May). Been average to above average every other month this year (not counting September as it's been 4 games). He only struggled 2 months (out of 6) last year too. He's not only a 2-3 month player that disappears the rest of the time. OPS over .800 while having to catch a majority of the season? Not sure why he's even being brought up as an issue. Brantley, Bourn, Swisher, Cabrera, Stubbs, Chiz....theses guys have been issues (or moreso than Santana).

I also disagree still that the Swisher signing has been disastrous. Been a disappointment for sure but I expect him to bounceback. Bourn on the other hand....hoping we can trade him this winter.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:18 am

The construction of the Indians for the 2014 season will have several major decisions that have to be faced in order to maintain fiscal sanity while still fielding what could be a competitive club. The Indians have a committed payroll of around $ 80 MM for the 2013 season. For the 2014 season, the Indians are committed to $ 49 MM with a target of no more than 10 % more than their 2013 commitment. The following questions, not in any order of importance, need to be answered:

1. Jason Kubel's option/buyout: So far, Kubs has five AB's.. two hits (one a double) and is showing he is finally healthy. His option is $ 7.5 MM or he has a $ 1 MM buy out. Take the option would be my suggestion..or add $ 6.5 MM

2. Chris Perez: Currently has a salary of $ 7.3 MM, would be looking at a 20 % increase in 2014 to about $ 9 MM.. He is one of the top five closers in the AL. He is also a luxury that can only be afforded by a cash strapped team if they have other salary numbers coming off the books. CP will most likely be non-tendered or signed if both of Ubaldo and Kazmir choose to go elsewhere. Add $ 9 MM

3.Ubaldo Jimenez: By picking up his option, the Indians would signal they want him back. By him declining, it would send the message that he would NOT be looking to return. He's not an ace. He's a pretty good 3/4 SP with control problems and the ability to throw a gem every now and then. He's worth his option. He'd add continuity if he accepts the one year QO. He's unlikely to do so.. The expectation is that he'll be on his way to 'other-land" after this season. Add $ 0 MM

4. Justin Masterson: May be extended.. or will go to arbitration. From ARB III, Add $ 11.5 MM

5. Joe Smith: Tough call.. he's been a warrior and a tremendous part of the back of the pen. He's due for a big raise in ARB III. He'd be a continuity signing.. Add $ 5 MM

6.Scott Kazmir: Is a FA after this season. He's the 3 year/$ 24 MM to 3 year/$ 33 MM guy.. take the average and call it a $ 9 MM add.

There are other lesser questions that need to be answered. They include Stubbs, Albers, Scrabble, Dr Smooth, Josh Tomlin and Carlos Carasco's salaries. For expediency, call this half dozen player grouping a net add of $ 12 MM.

So, with the $ 49 MM already committed, adding the values stated as $ 6.5 MM, $ 9 MM, $ 11.5 MM, $ 5 MM, $ 9 MM and $ 12 MM, respectively, the Indians would add $ 53 MM to total $ 102 MM for the 2014 season. This is budget busting & a no can do-er. About $ 14-18 MM in trimming has to occur:

-Kazmir and CP would mean two fifth's of the starting rotation and the closer would be gone.. not so smart.
-Stubbs, Smith & Kubel (- 15 MM) would mean Swisher is your starting OF'er, but you keep your closer and Kazmir..
-other combination..

Tough fiscal decisions.. that's why CA gets paid the big bucks to make these....
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BTW.. the rally chicken thing.. is stooopid.....
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:40 am

... IMO this has been a rare 3-team deal that has worked out pretty well for all 3 clubs involved....


Not so much...

-The Reds are ecstatic with the way Choo has played CF and how he's leading off their order. The Reds knew going in that Choo would be a one year rental and Choo has produced at a level well above what was expected. The Reds are thrilled..

-The Indians have a solidified pen with Albers and Shaw, a solid RF who has speed, defense and is hitting at or above the expected levels. The Indians also have a promising or prospective SP in the minors who may be that FOR SP they've been looking for since CC Sabathia & Cliff Lee departed. The Indians aren't as happy as the Reds, but they're still happy..

-The Dbax have a SS of the future who is hitting around .260 for the season but, has seen his numbers dive to horrendous levels. Month by month, Didi has gone from April .407, May .293, June .241 July .234 & August .197. These numbers coupled with what the DBax gave up.. could be considered one of the DBax worst trades ever even if you consider trading Trevor Bauer being addition by subtraction..

Both the Reds and Indians would make this deal again.. The Dbax would not...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:00 am

Tondo wrote:Well, Swisher and Bourn don't look like good signings now and they could come back to bite them in a couple of years, but they're hardly the reason this team is failing. If anything they've come short to put the team over the top, if that was the expectation level (which is debatable), but overall they've been AVG starting players for their respective roles, especially considering their defense. Ever thought that the bump on defense contributed to the emergence of the pitching? I'd say those two have contributed to stabilize this team from a below AVG one to an above AVG one with their AVG play. I think that's fair to say.
That said, I am pretty confident that both Swisher and Bourn can bounce back and have another good season or two the next 2-3 seasons. Both have slumped since August, but were pretty solid for the most part the months before. How does everone's fav Willingham's contract look right now? or Kubel's? It happens in FA, you overpay some on "names" and you hit value jackpots on underrated ones (Raburn).

I agree that Choo's bat would have looked really good this season, but remember that he is the Reds' leadoff hitter, so no guarantee his numbers would hold up if he hit cleanup for the Tribe. But all that is just hindsight, as most on here were pretty happy with getting Bauer for Choo at the time of the trade.

Overall, I'd still rate this offseason above AVG, as the additions of Kazmir, Gomes, Aviles and Raburn (combined 116 RBIs in ~720 ABs) more than make up for the minus value on Bourn, Swisher, Myers and Reynolds. Those 8 players represent ~36mil of the payroll for 2013, which is 4.5mil on AVG, that's ok. Next season this number will be 34mil for only Bourn, Swisher, Gomes, Aviles and Raburn. They will have to be creative and/or safe payroll somewhere else.

My plan would be to let CP, Albers, Giambi, Hill, Stubbs, Ubaldo and Kazmir walk in FA. Any deal with them would be minus value sooner or later. I would try to re-sign one of Stubbs or J.Smith, but would have no problem letting both of them go too. Use the system's bullpen depth (CC Lee, Wood, Adams, Guilmet, Price, Crockett...and maybe Pestano returns to old form, shouldn't command too much in ARB1 to find out) to reload the bullpen from within and on the cheap. I'd keep ACab for the start of next season, as long as no capable starting SS is signed in FA. Don't rush Lindor. Aviles only has plus value as super-sub.

I don't get the angst regarding our SP as the top 4 are set and looking good for next season with Masterson/Salazar as the 1/2 and Kluber/McAllister as 3/4. Of course some regression could happen, but that could happen to anyone (ask the Phillies about Halladay) and their success seems for real and supported by all kinds of stats/peripherals.
For the 5th spot I'd be pretty comfortable to let it play out between Carrasco, House, Tomlin, cheap injury/reclamation FA and Bauer (you never know how he looks next ST, he's still very young and he has the stuff, right?). Especially Tomlin is a very good safety net to have should the upside guys come up short (again). I consider him a capable no5 SP.

All that would at least ensure that the payroll stays roughly the same as 2013 without much projected regression (maybe bullpen, maybe 5th SP, maybe Raburn/Gomes) and plenty of upside (Salazar, maybe bullpen, maybe 5th SP, closer to career AVGs with Swisher/Bourn, maybe JRam?). The downside is the 3B and corner OF "holes" remain. Stubbs and especially Chisenhall are platoon bats at best, that should be clear by now. There's no viable in house solution for that.


I disagree a bit on Swisher and Bourn not being a reason this team is failing. Bourn has been a big reason for the Tribe's failures this year. His OBP is now down to .315; and his OPS, OPS+, and wOBA are all now worse than Drew Stubbs. I would agree that Cabrera has been a bigger reason for the Tribe's failings, but Bourn is probably culprit #2 (at least offensively) IMO. Still like the Swisher signing but he too has been a reason for our failings. Need more out of him.

I do agree that both Bourn and Swisher have provided a boost defensively, and agree you can't ignore that. Definitely think it's fair to say it's helped the pitching. I'd also agree that this offseason was a success overall despite some of the issues. Tribe too some risks...few paid off, few didn't. As you said that's life in free agency.

I'd let a few of the guys you listed walk in free agency but not all. Mostly because not all are free agents. CP and Stubbs aren't free agents. CP has one more arby year (though likely is gonna get around $10M) and Stubbs has 2 more arby years left. I definitely wouldn't non-tender Stubbs. He likely won't get more than $4M (and maybe closer to $3.5M). Been a solid player though agree he is more a platoon guy/4th OFer. Still can play solid defense with some pop and lots of speed, plus very solid against lefties. I'd still look to trade him this winter as think he's a better fit in CF than RF and think he'd have some value, but definitely wouldn't let him walk. CP...torn on him. He's not worth $10M, that much I think most would agree with. But do you really just non-tender him and lose him for nothing? That would really hurt...though that $10M could really help out other areas next year. Definitely should look to trade him but there are gonna be a few solid closer options on the market this winter so supply and demand (plus CP's salary) will really hurt his value.

I agree 110% on not rushing Lindor. I don't think the Tribe will though their track record with that isn't the greatest (LaPorta, Marte, Chiz, Phillips, etc)...though did give Santana and Kipnis enough time and things turned out well. I'm 50-50 on AC right now. Think trading him is the better option but only if you get a good return...which I'm not sure you can get right now. Aviles could start IMO too though bringing in a platoon guy would be preferable.

I'm with ya a bit on the SP. I don't think it looks as bad next year as some are worried (should we lose Ubaldo and Kaz). Think it's a bit optimistic to think Salazar will be a #2 next year but don't think that hurts us if he's not. Kluber when healthy has been a very capable #2 behind Masterson IMO, and McAllister, while uspectacular, has been solid in the way Jake Westbrook was with us. No issue with him as our #3. Salazar as a #4 and the guys you mentioned (minus House) gives you 5 capable starters. Definitely not the deepest rotation though.

Agree with Chiz and Stubbs (as said) being platoon guys right now...though disagree a bit that we don't have anyone in house that can help there. I'd really like to see Raburn go to winter ball and play some 3B. He played a lot of infield last year with the Tigers (2B though) and does have some 3B experience in the bigs. His arm hasn't been an issue in RF so shouldn't be an issue at 3B. His OPS against lefties this year is now over 1.000. Another platoon option for Chiz is obviously Aviles though hasn't hit lefties as well this year. But another out of the box option could be Gomes/Marson. Played some 3B for the Blue Jays last year. Obviously he's fine defensively behind the plate but the guy has been hitting so well that I'm not sure you should keep his bat on the bench anymore on days he's not catching. Marson's year has been a lost cause but he has in the past hit lefties well. If the Tribe were to keep him he could catch on days a lefty was on the mound. And if you let Marson go, could use Santana behind the plate those days (basically have Gomes and Santana play everyday, splitting catching duties). Stubbs...agree there aren't many options to platoon with him. Raburn has hit righties well (OPS over .800 against them) but not sure that's sustainable. Kubel could be an option if he is kept (even if his option is declined, Tribe could try to re-sign him). Santana/Gomes could be an option as well here.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:11 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
... IMO this has been a rare 3-team deal that has worked out pretty well for all 3 clubs involved....


Not so much...

-The Reds are ecstatic with the way Choo has played CF and how he's leading off their order. The Reds knew going in that Choo would be a one year rental and Choo has produced at a level well above what was expected. The Reds are thrilled..

-The Indians have a solidified pen with Albers and Shaw, a solid RF who has speed, defense and is hitting at or above the expected levels. The Indians also have a promising or prospective SP in the minors who may be that FOR SP they've been looking for since CC Sabathia & Cliff Lee departed. The Indians aren't as happy as the Reds, but they're still happy..

-The Dbax have a SS of the future who is hitting around .260 for the season but, has seen his numbers dive to horrendous levels. Month by month, Didi has gone from April .407, May .293, June .241 July .234 & August .197. These numbers coupled with what the DBax gave up.. could be considered one of the DBax worst trades ever even if you consider trading Trevor Bauer being addition by subtraction..

Both the Reds and Indians would make this deal again.. The Dbax would not...


D'bax have been pretty happy with Didi this year. Injury slowed him down but the kid is only 23 and having a very solid rookie year for a SS. OPS+ of 95 isn't bad. He has struggled of late but again, he's a rookie. Biggest issue has been his struggles against lefties.

If there was a team that would be hesitant to do this trade again, it'd be the Indians before the D'backs (though i still think the Tribe would do it). And if this is one of the worst trades in D'backs history, then they must have one of the best trade records in all of baseball. Heck, it may not have even been the worst D'backs trade of the winter. Think a fair argument could be made that giving up Justin Upton and Chris "2nd in the NL in batting average" Johnson was a worse deal even with how well Delgado has looked. Prado has been good but nothing overly special.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:24 am

A.Zajac wrote:The major problem in FA this coming off-season is the pitching market is bone dry. Let's say Ubaldo walks as does Kazmr... I would imagine Salazar takes one spot.. but it's somewhat scary to guess who might take the other. I'm not sure how much I trust Bauer at this juncture.

Offensively... we need a third baseman. There's no way around that. Possibly right field too because I've never been sold on Stubbs.

Carlos Beltran might be on the market, but I'd imagine out of our price range. Marlon Byrd but I think he's somewhat of a fluke. Nelson Cruz but PED questions... I think Corey Hart, but he can never stay healthy. Kendry Morales but you'd have to stick him at DH.. Michael Morse I guess but.. consistency is a concern. I believe Hunter Pence might be a FA, that would be interesting. But the 3B market is bone dry.. would have to solve that via trade.


I still say moving Santana from behind the plate should be something the Tribe looks at doing this winter. Gomes is showing he's far too good offensively to not be playing 5-6 days a week and his defense is obviously much better behind the plate. You still have Marson as a backup option or could keep a guy like Shoppach around...or hell, just still go with 2 catchers but play one (Santana) in the field). Think Santana can fill the RF void whether he's playing RF or playing 1B and moving Swisher to RF.

3B...I agree partly with. Without question need a platoon guy for 3B with Chiz as he's been useless against lefties (outside of that bomb against Price early in the year). OPS against righties still isn't good (just under .700) though. Definitely a spot I think the Tribe will look at upgrading...but as you mentioned the big problem is the FA market for 3B's is even more bare than the SP market. Could look at a trade but not a ton of options there either (Headley, maybe Freese?). As I said above too, I'd like to see Raburn get some work at 3B over the winter. He can play 2B and RF....3B shouldn't be too hard, especially since he's done it before. In any case, can't hurt to have him try...worst case he looks so bad there over the winter (winter ball and/or spring training) that you just say nevermind and move on from the idea.


Agree with your assessment of the free agent market for hitters that fit with the tribe. Beltran would be a great add and we had some big time interest a few years ago before he signed with the Cards...but agree, money just doesn't seem to be there. Plus he's gonna get a QO and not sure the Tribe would want to lose a 1st round pick for a guy Beltran's age (though having that competitive balance pick would make losing our 1st easier to handle). I think Morales is a legit option in free agency. I like him better than the RH bats as think the Tribe needs more help against RH pitching. Think he could still DH if you moved Santana from behind the plate too. A guy you didn't mention that I think would be a great fit in Cleveland is Raul Ibanez. Yes he's old but guy just keeps on hitting. Won't be too expensive and should only need a 1 year deal, whereas Morales is likely looking at a multi-year deal. Hunter Pence is a free agent though also likely getting a qualifying offer. Don't think he's good enough to warrant a loss of a draft pick, plus could be more pricey than Beltran due to age difference.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:35 am

Edible14 wrote:Eh, I'm not terribly concerned right now about Bourn and Swisher. Swisher is probably under-appreciated by stats defensively (UZR/TZR/any used component in WAR usually doesn't factor in throw receiving, which is most of a 1B's job). They're both above-average for their position, as much as people like to bag on them because everyone is being negative right now. Swisher and Bourn aren't the problem with the team. Neither is Carlos Santana, for that matter.

The problem is Chisenhall and Cabrera (who now is a below-replacement level player). Another issue is that we continue to give critical at-bats to Jason Giambi, who will likely finish the season below the mendoza line. And a big problem all year is that there's nobody in the bullpen you can count on. The last week or so is troubling, offensive-wise, but it's a tiny part of a larger season where plenty of chances have been squandered by the usual suspects.


Agree and disagree here. IMO both Bourn and Swisher have been bigger issues than Chiz this year. Yes both have been better in terms of WAR but in terms of what you should have expected from them, they have been much bigger disappointments. Bourn and Swisher were supposed to be big time top of the order/middle of the order bats; whereas, Chiz was suppose to just hit at the bottom of the lineup.

Plus...how much worse has Chiz been than Bourn?

Chiz: 1.1 rWAR, 0.5 fWAR, 0.3 WARP, .650 OPS, 82 OPS+, .285 wOBA, 4.8% walk rate, 19.0% K rate
Bourn: 1.8 rWAR, 1.6 fWAR, 0.9 WARP, .659 OPS, 88 OPS+, .295 wOBA, 6.7% walk rate, 23.7% K rate

Bourn obviously has been better...but not by as much as he should be. And not saying Chiz hasn't been a problem, he absolutely has been...but he is our #8 hitter. His struggles aren't as critical as your leadoff hitter (Bourn), cleanup/#2 hitter (Swisher), or #2/3 hitter (Cabrera for much of the year).

Do agree on Cabrera being an issue. At this stage, he has to be the most disappointing player...even moreso than Pestano, Reynolds, and Myers IMO.

Giambi wouldn't be as big an issue if he spent more time on the bench and less time starting. Been solid pinch hitter this year. 14 times he's pinch hit...while he's only hitting .182 his OPS is over 1.000. Had a couple big HRs there. A guy I wouldn't mind on the bench in a playoff chase, but not a guy I want getting more than the occasional PH opportunity.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:44 am

Baseball Prospectus has a new "What Scouts Are Saying" bit up on their site with a couple interesting things about a pair of Indians:

Ubaldo:
“The best I have seen him in nearly three years. The delivery has a lot of flaws, but he did a better job of repeating and held velocity up to 97 late in the game. He has a really good changeup and the breaking stuff is workable. May have some of the best stuff on the free agent market if and when he opts out of his 2014 mutual option.”

Kipnis:
"The best power-speed combination of any 2B in the game right now, and he just continues to improve. If he can cut down on his strikeouts he might become the best 2B in the game. He does all the little things and plays the game the right way. If he played in New York or Los Angeles, he would be a superstar."

The Ubaldo stuff seems very relevant to what we've been talking about in regards to his offseason status. Kipnis stuff pretty interesting too IMO.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:30 am

..D'bax have been pretty happy with Didi this year...
No, the Dbax aren't happy with him.. not even close..

..I think the clock has struck 12 for Didi and he's reverting to the average player he is. No power, no SBs, and his BA is sinking like a stone. He's only on pace for like 50 RBIs and 90 runs even with 600 ABs. I didn't stretch anything out. That's what he's on pace for with a potential of around 450 ABs.

The power is a fluke. He never had any and there is no indication that he will have many more. He hasn't hit more 5 HRs in any year in the minors. To say he has "above average power" is ridiculous. He's not going to pump out 15 HRs anytime soon.

He is a TERRIBLE base runner. I don't care if he is "Fast", or not. That's not all there is to base running. Look at his minor numbers. He's terrible. Like a 40% CS rate. He's not stealing bases this year. Trust me. He only has ONE SB ATTEMPT in 44 GP in the MLB and he was CS. HE doesn't have the green light, because he sucks at it..


Mathew Poulliot... Gregorius, for what it’s worth, signed with the Reds for $50,000 out of Curacao in 2007. Bauer got a $3.45 million bonus and a four-year, $4.45 million contract upon joining the Diamondbacks last year.

Not only is that money gone, but the Diamondbacks passed on such talents as the Orioles’ Dylan Bundy, the Nationals’ Anthony Rendon and the Indians’ Francisco Lindor to draft Bauer. It’s safe to say that Gregorius wouldn’t have been of much interest if they had taken Lindor, now one of the game’s best shortstop prospects.

That the Diamondbacks’ relationship with Bauer had soured was obvious. The two parties disagreed about his throwing program. Whispers about attitude problems had become pervasive. Some of Bauer’s tweets also rubbed people the wrong way.

It’s all stuff that likely would have been overlooked had Bauer seemed well on his way to becoming an ace. However, fluctuating velocity and spotty fastball command had damaged his stock to some disagree.

Regardless, I still think trading Bauer, Matt Albers and Bryan Shaw in exchange for Gregorius, Tony Sipp and Lars Anderson was a lousy idea for the Diamondbacks. But nor do I imagine Towers picked it over a bunch of superior offers; the fact is that everyone knew that Bauer was out there and no team seemed all that eager to take the plunge.

The big concern I have is the way the Diamondbacks are bleeding talent. I’ve liked their two biggest free agent additions to date (Brandon McCarthy and Eric Chavez), but trading Chris Young for a now obsolete Cliff Pennington and an overpriced reliever in Heath Bell was a net loss, as is this latest deal. Towers also traded a semi-intriguing corner infielder in Ryan Wheeler for a generic left-handed reliever in Matt Reynolds. In an effort to fill gaps now, Towers has increased the likelihood that there will be bigger holes in the future...


There are literally ten to one comments panning the Didi acquisition by the DBax. These are just a handful and they're all salient. but, you can disagree.. you'll be wrong.. but, that's the way you roll..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:31 am

Hermie13 wrote:Baseball Prospectus has a new "What Scouts Are Saying" bit up on their site with a couple interesting things about a pair of Indians:

Ubaldo:
“The best I have seen him in nearly three years. The delivery has a lot of flaws, but he did a better job of repeating and held velocity up to 97 late in the game. He has a really good changeup and the breaking stuff is workable. May have some of the best stuff on the free agent market if and when he opts out of his 2014 mutual option.”

Kipnis:
"The best power-speed combination of any 2B in the game right now, and he just continues to improve. If he can cut down on his strikeouts he might become the best 2B in the game. He does all the little things and plays the game the right way. If he played in New York or Los Angeles, he would be a superstar."

The Ubaldo stuff seems very relevant to what we've been talking about in regards to his offseason status. Kipnis stuff pretty interesting too IMO.


Kipnis may be theee most desired player on the Indians roster by other clubs..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:04 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
..D'bax have been pretty happy with Didi this year...
No, the Dbax aren't happy with him.. not even close..

..I think the clock has struck 12 for Didi and he's reverting to the average player he is. No power, no SBs, and his BA is sinking like a stone. He's only on pace for like 50 RBIs and 90 runs even with 600 ABs. I didn't stretch anything out. That's what he's on pace for with a potential of around 450 ABs.

The power is a fluke. He never had any and there is no indication that he will have many more. He hasn't hit more 5 HRs in any year in the minors. To say he has "above average power" is ridiculous. He's not going to pump out 15 HRs anytime soon.

He is a TERRIBLE base runner. I don't care if he is "Fast", or not. That's not all there is to base running. Look at his minor numbers. He's terrible. Like a 40% CS rate. He's not stealing bases this year. Trust me. He only has ONE SB ATTEMPT in 44 GP in the MLB and he was CS. HE doesn't have the green light, because he sucks at it..


Mathew Poulliot... Gregorius, for what it’s worth, signed with the Reds for $50,000 out of Curacao in 2007. Bauer got a $3.45 million bonus and a four-year, $4.45 million contract upon joining the Diamondbacks last year.

Not only is that money gone, but the Diamondbacks passed on such talents as the Orioles’ Dylan Bundy, the Nationals’ Anthony Rendon and the Indians’ Francisco Lindor to draft Bauer. It’s safe to say that Gregorius wouldn’t have been of much interest if they had taken Lindor, now one of the game’s best shortstop prospects.

That the Diamondbacks’ relationship with Bauer had soured was obvious. The two parties disagreed about his throwing program. Whispers about attitude problems had become pervasive. Some of Bauer’s tweets also rubbed people the wrong way.

It’s all stuff that likely would have been overlooked had Bauer seemed well on his way to becoming an ace. However, fluctuating velocity and spotty fastball command had damaged his stock to some disagree.

Regardless, I still think trading Bauer, Matt Albers and Bryan Shaw in exchange for Gregorius, Tony Sipp and Lars Anderson was a lousy idea for the Diamondbacks. But nor do I imagine Towers picked it over a bunch of superior offers; the fact is that everyone knew that Bauer was out there and no team seemed all that eager to take the plunge.

The big concern I have is the way the Diamondbacks are bleeding talent. I’ve liked their two biggest free agent additions to date (Brandon McCarthy and Eric Chavez), but trading Chris Young for a now obsolete Cliff Pennington and an overpriced reliever in Heath Bell was a net loss, as is this latest deal. Towers also traded a semi-intriguing corner infielder in Ryan Wheeler for a generic left-handed reliever in Matt Reynolds. In an effort to fill gaps now, Towers has increased the likelihood that there will be bigger holes in the future...


There are literally ten to one comments panning the Didi acquisition by the DBax. These are just a handful and they're all salient. but, you can disagree.. you'll be wrong.. but, that's the way you roll..


I said the D'backs like Didi, not some sportswriters or fan comments.

Gregorius, the Diamondbacks' new wunderkind shortstop, is making a name for himself since beginning play following an injury rehab assignment. That came after a winter trade that was one of the most discussed -- in some quarters maligned -- three-way arrangements in recent memory. In what was technically a nine-player deal, the Reds received star outfielder Shin-Soo Choo, the Indians obtained ballyhooed young right-hander Trevor Bauer and the Diamondbacks took back a talented but largely unknown shortstop.

So far, the 23-year-old Gregorius is surprising everyone, maybe even the Diamondbacks a little. Gregorius' arrival came earlier than expected (a Willie Bloomquist injury forced the issue), his defense a little more spectacular than advertised and his bat quite a bit livelier than almost anyone believed. Opponents are impressed. The Diamondbacks are falling in love.

"He is [bleepin'] fantastic," Diamondbacks coach Steve Sax said. "He's a good kid. He works hard. I think he's got a big future. He makes plays other guys can't. And he's got some pop, too."


Again the Diamondbacks really like Didi. Hell, Towers compared him to a young Derek Jeter. You can argue that the D'backs are wrong...and you could be right. Personally think they got the weakest deal of the 3 teams, and think the D'backs are overvaluing Didi. Then again Didi has played well in the bigs this year; whereas Bauer struggled both in the bigs and AAA.

ha, 50 RBIs and 90 runs scored in 600 ABs for a rookie SS is actually very solid. Not sure why anyone would complain about that. He's not a middle of the order hitter so who cares that he's only at 50 RBIs? He's hit 2nd and 8th this year mostly. Not sure who wrote/said that first bit you posted but that person just seems like a bitter fan ranting. Asdrubal never showed much power either in the minors yet it came later, so saying Didi's power is a fluke is just dumb. Didi has a nice frame for a SS (6'1") so developing power a bit later isn't a surprise at all. And there's more to baserunning than just SBs. Didi has actually rated out as a solid base runner this year.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ChadS17 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:10 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Baseball Prospectus has a new "What Scouts Are Saying" bit up on their site with a couple interesting things about a pair of Indians:

Ubaldo:
“The best I have seen him in nearly three years. The delivery has a lot of flaws, but he did a better job of repeating and held velocity up to 97 late in the game. He has a really good changeup and the breaking stuff is workable. May have some of the best stuff on the free agent market if and when he opts out of his 2014 mutual option.”

Kipnis:
"The best power-speed combination of any 2B in the game right now, and he just continues to improve. If he can cut down on his strikeouts he might become the best 2B in the game. He does all the little things and plays the game the right way. If he played in New York or Los Angeles, he would be a superstar."

The Ubaldo stuff seems very relevant to what we've been talking about in regards to his offseason status. Kipnis stuff pretty interesting too IMO.


Here's a stunning stat on Ubaldo: If you take away the two back-to-back New York and Boston starts early in the year in which he allowed 7 ER each, he would be 10-7 with a 3.06 ERA
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:43 pm

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9617226/cleveland-indians-being-held-back-surprising-weakness-mlb

Insider only article, but interesting read for those that have access.

Couple key points:

Bourn has saved 22 less runs this year versus last year.
Stubbs hasn't taken well to RF.
Cabrera has cost the Tribe 11 runs at SS, 6 worse than last year.
Santana is the worst catcher in baseball at blocking balls in the dirt (min 200 blocks).
Santana has cost the Tribe 14 runs behind the plate...9th worst among a player...at ANY position.
Reynolds was god awful at 3B, costing us 8 runs there....plus another 7 at 1B.
Tribe starters have the 2nd best K-rate in baseball behind only Detroit.

Overall, Tribe pitchers aren't so much pitching better due to defense, but because they are striking more guys out.

Agree with this somewhat but not completely. Stubbs hasn't been as good in RF as one would have thought but better than Choo was last year. And despite the fact that Bourn has been much worse this year than in the past, he's also still an upgrade over Brantley in CF last year, plus Brantley in LF is an upgrade over the guys we ran out. Infield defense though has been bad...very bad...

Defense should get better though. Chiz actually is an upgrade at 3B defensively over Reynolds, and with Santana DHing more, has made the defensive behind the plate better with Gomes.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Edible14 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:17 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:1. Jason Kubel's option/buyout: So far, Kubs has five AB's.. two hits (one a double) and is showing he is finally healthy. His option is $ 7.5 MM or he has a $ 1 MM buy out. Take the option would be my suggestion..or add $ 6.5 MM

2. Chris Perez: Currently has a salary of $ 7.3 MM, would be looking at a 20 % increase in 2014 to about $ 9 MM.. He is one of the top five closers in the AL. He is also a luxury that can only be afforded by a cash strapped team if they have other salary numbers coming off the books. CP will most likely be non-tendered or signed if both of Ubaldo and Kazmir choose to go elsewhere. Add $ 9 MM


1) No way in hell do you pick up a $7.5M option on a guy who has had that sub-par of a season. I don't really care what he does in a month against a bunch of teams that are out of the postseason race and are calling up AAA guys. Is he an option to bring back on a low-cost free agent deal? Sure. But no way do you burn that much money on a guy when the team is likely going to be at $80M before even cutting one free-agent check.

2) What makes Chris Perez a "top 5" closer? If we look at save percentage, he's 21st out of 30 closers. If you look at K/BB ratio, he's 25th. 24th in WHIP. He's hardly even an above-average reliever at this point. Of 140 qualified relievers, he's 129th in FIP, 87th in xFIP.

I really don't think we should be paying him $10M+ to be somewhere around an average reliever, and a below-average closer. I hope the Indians can find a way to make other plans at the position. Because I think a non-tender is in order.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:56 pm

-A guy who hit 30 homers with 90 RBI's in a pitchers park in 2012 isn't worth 7.5 MM.. In the years he's been healthy, (2008, 2009, 2010 and 2012, respectively, he's averaged 25 homers while driving in 90 runs.. Sounds like a guy who's well worth the 1/2 of what Nick Swisher will be getting.. smh..

-Chris Perez has converted 89 % of his save opportunities over the last three years (97 saves in 109 save opportunities). During that same time, Craig Kimbrel has saves 90 % of his save opportunities. When you get a closer who converts saves at a level approaching or breaching 90 %, that is an elite closer and worthy of being considered one of the top five at his position. During that same time period. Mariano Rivera, the consensus best closer in baseball, was at the same 89 % save conversion rate as CP (90 saves in 101 save opportunities). The personal dislike shown for Chris Perez should in no way diminish the FACT that he is a damn fine closer. One of the best in the AL..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:47 am

Ahhh.. the light schedule from Thursday night gave a moment of pause in this race, however, all it did was lead to an intensity level increase.. The three top teams in the wild card hunt lost their games... Last night's games saw Tampa lose 6-2 to the Halos, The A's were edged by the Astros thereby falling behind the Rangers for the division lead, but maintaining their hold on the first wild card, the Royals earned a measure of respect with a hard fought 13 inning win over the M's, the Orioles use three solo blasts to eke out a win over the hapless CWSox and the Yankees play for 4 1/2 hours only to lose in 10 innings to the Red Sox leaving:

+2 1/2 .........Oakland
0 ...............Tampa
-2 1/2......... New York
-3 ..............Cleveland
-3 ..............Baltimore
-4 1/2 .........Kansas City

7 Games separate top to bottom in this race... Each of the seven teams will have at least 22 games left to play after today respectively.. And the fun definitely continues.. The weekend series for each of these team will include:

Oakland hosting the Stros..
Tampa traveling to Seattle
Yankees hosting the Red Sox
Cleveland hosting the Mets
Orioles hosting the CWSox
Royals hosting the Tigers

The Tribe faces pitching phenom Zach Wheeler in tonight's interleague contest. This kid understands that his bread is buttered with his fastball!. He features a mid nineties fastball that literally explodes out of his hand. It is especially tough to hit when he has it up in the zone. Indian hitters won't be able to get on top of that pitch and need to lay off of it.. What makes his FB so effective is how it rides up or seems to ride up as he throws with a pronounced downward tilt. His other offerings include a sharp vertical curve ball (it's a lot like a Bert Blyleven 12-6), a cut fastball that moves just enough and a change up that are, at best, adequate secondary pitches. His curve ball may be his best second pitch, however, he doesn't throw it that often and gets strikes from it even less. He'll throw over 80 % fastballs and he commands that pitch very well... While he's not one pitch pitcher, he goes in that direction. Scott Kazmir will need to have his slider working to keep the Metsies from being anything other than a spoiler. It would be nice not to have to win the second and third games of a three game series to earn the series win for a change..

Thoughts?
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:13 am

Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:1. Jason Kubel's option/buyout: So far, Kubs has five AB's.. two hits (one a double) and is showing he is finally healthy. His option is $ 7.5 MM or he has a $ 1 MM buy out. Take the option would be my suggestion..or add $ 6.5 MM

2. Chris Perez: Currently has a salary of $ 7.3 MM, would be looking at a 20 % increase in 2014 to about $ 9 MM.. He is one of the top five closers in the AL. He is also a luxury that can only be afforded by a cash strapped team if they have other salary numbers coming off the books. CP will most likely be non-tendered or signed if both of Ubaldo and Kazmir choose to go elsewhere. Add $ 9 MM


1) No way in hell do you pick up a $7.5M option on a guy who has had that sub-par of a season. I don't really care what he does in a month against a bunch of teams that are out of the postseason race and are calling up AAA guys. Is he an option to bring back on a low-cost free agent deal? Sure. But no way do you burn that much money on a guy when the team is likely going to be at $80M before even cutting one free-agent check.

2) What makes Chris Perez a "top 5" closer? If we look at save percentage, he's 21st out of 30 closers. If you look at K/BB ratio, he's 25th. 24th in WHIP. He's hardly even an above-average reliever at this point. Of 140 qualified relievers, he's 129th in FIP, 87th in xFIP.

I really don't think we should be paying him $10M+ to be somewhere around an average reliever, and a below-average closer. I hope the Indians can find a way to make other plans at the position. Because I think a non-tender is in order.


I agree on Chris Perez, he's definitely not a top 5 closer in the AL....maybe in the AL Central he is though (maybe). He does get the job done more often than not. Wickman-like reliever in a way I guess. Decent guy to have at the backend...just not at the money he's making.

I disagree on Kubel some. While I think at this juncture it's more likely that his option is declined, I don't think the odds are as low as you are saying that it gets picked up. Tribe has liked Kubel for a while. Really need another power bat in the middle of the lineup...maybe Kubel isn't that though (maybe he can't get back to his 2012 level). Tribe had it for a while with Reynolds (and now the Yanks have it damnit). $7.5M isn't cheap but don't know if it's really that crazy for Kubel (again, assuming he finishes well). Maybe you could re-sign him for like $4M though. Or maybe the Tribe can land a middle of the order bat thru a trade.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:06 pm

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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:20 pm



Thanks for posting the link Hermie... I for one was not impressed with Kluber while he was toiling away in the minors. Sure he got the K's but he was also giving up to many hits/runs... Really glad to hear from him in his own words he realized this and needed to do something to fix it. It looks like it is working and glad he is making me eat my words.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:27 pm

criznit2009 wrote:


Thanks for posting the link Hermie... I for one was not impressed with Kluber while he was toiling away in the minors. Sure he got the K's but he was also giving up to many hits/runs... Really glad to hear from him in his own words he realized this and needed to do something to fix it. It looks like it is working and glad he is making me eat my words.


Yeah, I liked him in the minors but only as a future late inning reliever. Loved the K's but didn't think he'd be able to improve and hold up as a starter. Agree, definitely glad he's proving me wrong too (and hopefully keeps proving me wrong). :cool
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:17 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:1. Jason Kubel's option/buyout: So far, Kubs has five AB's.. two hits (one a double) and is showing he is finally healthy. His option is $ 7.5 MM or he has a $ 1 MM buy out. Take the option would be my suggestion..or add $ 6.5 MM

2. Chris Perez: Currently has a salary of $ 7.3 MM, would be looking at a 20 % increase in 2014 to about $ 9 MM.. He is one of the top five closers in the AL. He is also a luxury that can only be afforded by a cash strapped team if they have other salary numbers coming off the books. CP will most likely be non-tendered or signed if both of Ubaldo and Kazmir choose to go elsewhere. Add $ 9 MM


1) No way in hell do you pick up a $7.5M option on a guy who has had that sub-par of a season. I don't really care what he does in a month against a bunch of teams that are out of the postseason race and are calling up AAA guys. Is he an option to bring back on a low-cost free agent deal? Sure. But no way do you burn that much money on a guy when the team is likely going to be at $80M before even cutting one free-agent check.

2) What makes Chris Perez a "top 5" closer? If we look at save percentage, he's 21st out of 30 closers. If you look at K/BB ratio, he's 25th. 24th in WHIP. He's hardly even an above-average reliever at this point. Of 140 qualified relievers, he's 129th in FIP, 87th in xFIP.

I really don't think we should be paying him $10M+ to be somewhere around an average reliever, and a below-average closer. I hope the Indians can find a way to make other plans at the position. Because I think a non-tender is in order.


I agree on Chris Perez, he's definitely not a top 5 closer in the AL....maybe in the AL Central he is though (maybe). He does get the job done more often than not. Wickman-like reliever in a way I guess. Decent guy to have at the backend...just not at the money he's making.

I disagree on Kubel some. While I think at this juncture it's more likely that his option is declined, I don't think the odds are as low as you are saying that it gets picked up. Tribe has liked Kubel for a while. Really need another power bat in the middle of the lineup...maybe Kubel isn't that though (maybe he can't get back to his 2012 level). Tribe had it for a while with Reynolds (and now the Yanks have it damnit). $7.5M isn't cheap but don't know if it's really that crazy for Kubel (again, assuming he finishes well). Maybe you could re-sign him for like $4M though. Or maybe the Tribe can land a middle of the order bat thru a trade.


FWIW a day or so after the initial story broke on the Twitter.

@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Indians get Kubel in trade; did not claim him on waivers. #DBacks paying nearly all of $2.5M remaining, which includes buyout.
Follow me on Twitter @GoTribe028 for useless and random tweets.
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