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Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ASUTribefan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.



A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:32 pm

ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.

A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out


Actually out of the 22 leadoff guys with at least 200 plate appearances in the leadoff spot, Bourn's OBP ranks 11th in baseball, not 5th. Again, he is middle of the road there as I said, nothing special. Last year he was 10th out of 23 (min 300 PAs). In 2011 he was 11th of 27 (again min 300 PAs). 2010 was 9th of 26 and 2009 was 17th of 27 (min 300 PAs). Never been a top guy there (though never been bad either).

I didn't mention his strikeout rate because it is irrelevant. Striking out with the bases empty is no different than any other out. Can't move a runner over or knock a guy in if no one is on base. A leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than any other spot in the lineup. Bourn can strike out 150+ times and I personally wouldn't be bothered....provided he gets on base. His k-rate is down....yippy.....not really helping him get on base and scoring runs though...

Also, I am not complaining about Bourn. Simply saying I haven't been overly impressed and somewhat disappointed. We did, however, become a better team the moment we signed him. Just want more for what we paid him. Just my opinion, not complaining about the signing either. Would have preferred the money go to pitching but again, did make our offense better and market value wasn't bad (BJ Upton?? eek).

Do like his speed and defense a lot. Has been a sparkplug at the top at times this year, but still would like to see him get on base more. Want him to be more than just a "sparkplug". Be a true game changer.

Will admit that I have never been a big Bourn fan. Always felt he was very overrated offensively (and still feel that way after seeing him in Cleveland). Again though,, not complaining and not saying he is bad...I just personally have been a bit disappointed with him. Again, I may have too high of standards though. Guess I am just disappointed that he is what he is...average leadoff man with great speed and defense. For the money though would want great leadoff man with speed and defense.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ASUTribefan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:53 pm

and out of players with 225 ABs he's 8th, not 11th. thats pretty far from middle of the road especially playing in the AL for the first time, for comparison of guys who hit first in 150 ABs and are switched from NL to AL or vise versa he's 2nd in OBP behind just Choo, thats pretty damn good. .

And Walks are alot more irrelevant then Strikeout rate, thats a fact. I would rather know how many times a hitter is going to give up an automatic out then he's going to walk. He's having about as good a year as you can ask for from him switching leagues. I dont think you understand how hard that is to do in baseball.


Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.

A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out


Actually out of the 22 leadoff guys with at least 200 plate appearances in the leadoff spot, Bourn's OBP ranks 11th in baseball, not 5th. Again, he is middle of the road there as I said, nothing special. Last year he was 10th out of 23 (min 300 PAs). In 2011 he was 11th of 27 (again min 300 PAs). 2010 was 9th of 26 and 2009 was 17th of 27 (min 300 PAs). Never been a top guy there (though never been bad either).

I didn't mention his strikeout rate because it is irrelevant. Striking out with the bases empty is no different than any other out. Can't move a runner over or knock a guy in if no one is on base. A leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than any other spot in the lineup. Bourn can strike out 150+ times and I personally wouldn't be bothered....provided he gets on base. His k-rate is down....yippy.....not really helping him get on base and scoring runs though...

Also, I am not complaining about Bourn. Simply saying I haven't been overly impressed and somewhat disappointed. We did, however, become a better team the moment we signed him. Just want more for what we paid him. Just my opinion, not complaining about the signing either. Would have preferred the money go to pitching but again, did make our offense better and market value wasn't bad (BJ Upton?? eek).

Do like his speed and defense a lot. Has been a sparkplug at the top at times this year, but still would like to see him get on base more. Want him to be more than just a "sparkplug". Be a true game changer.

Will admit that I have never been a big Bourn fan. Always felt he was very overrated offensively (and still feel that way after seeing him in Cleveland). Again though,, not complaining and not saying he is bad...I just personally have been a bit disappointed with him. Again, I may have too high of standards though. Guess I am just disappointed that he is what he is...average leadoff man with great speed and defense. For the money though would want great leadoff man with speed and defense.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:54 pm

ASUTribefan wrote:and out of players with 225 ABs he's 8th, not 11th. thats pretty far from middle of the road especially playing in the AL for the first time, for comparison of guys who hit first in 150 ABs and are switched from NL to AL or vise versa he's 2nd in OBP behind just Choo, thats pretty damn good. .

And Walks are alot more irrelevant then Strikeout rate, thats a fact. I would rather know how many times a hitter is going to give up an automatic out then he's going to walk. He's having about as good a year as you can ask for from him switching leagues. I dont think you understand how hard that is to do in baseball.


Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.

A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out


Actually out of the 22 leadoff guys with at least 200 plate appearances in the leadoff spot, Bourn's OBP ranks 11th in baseball, not 5th. Again, he is middle of the road there as I said, nothing special. Last year he was 10th out of 23 (min 300 PAs). In 2011 he was 11th of 27 (again min 300 PAs). 2010 was 9th of 26 and 2009 was 17th of 27 (min 300 PAs). Never been a top guy there (though never been bad either).

I didn't mention his strikeout rate because it is irrelevant. Striking out with the bases empty is no different than any other out. Can't move a runner over or knock a guy in if no one is on base. A leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than any other spot in the lineup. Bourn can strike out 150+ times and I personally wouldn't be bothered....provided he gets on base. His k-rate is down....yippy.....not really helping him get on base and scoring runs though...

Also, I am not complaining about Bourn. Simply saying I haven't been overly impressed and somewhat disappointed. We did, however, become a better team the moment we signed him. Just want more for what we paid him. Just my opinion, not complaining about the signing either. Would have preferred the money go to pitching but again, did make our offense better and market value wasn't bad (BJ Upton?? eek).

Do like his speed and defense a lot. Has been a sparkplug at the top at times this year, but still would like to see him get on base more. Want him to be more than just a "sparkplug". Be a true game changer.

Will admit that I have never been a big Bourn fan. Always felt he was very overrated offensively (and still feel that way after seeing him in Cleveland). Again though,, not complaining and not saying he is bad...I just personally have been a bit disappointed with him. Again, I may have too high of standards though. Guess I am just disappointed that he is what he is...average leadoff man with great speed and defense. For the money though would want great leadoff man with speed and defense.



As a lead off hitter.. Bourn has been GREAT. As good as could be hoped for from that spot.. VERY IMPRESSIVE. He is a big part of the reason Jason Kipnis has started the year on FIYAH!!.. Put a rabbit on first base..even if he isn't going to steal, and it still makes the pitches the next guy (and many times it was Kipnis) that much better.. opens the hole on the left side. etc. etc.. Those are the kind of stats that don't show up at FanGraphs.. Call it the corollary to the Eye Test... Kipnis Santana Raburn and Bourn.. these guys just get on base !!.

Getting on base.. is a good thing.. very good...Bourn's .347 doesn't quite measure up to his .354 CAREER YEAR HIGH.. so for that reason, those

HUGE

SEVEN

POINTS

for his results might be considered disappointing..

:rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:17 pm

Tonight's game is agony!
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:50 am

Bearcatbob wrote:Tonight's game is agony!
Come on Bob.. if it was a 14 to 0 blow out, you would have turned on reruns of the Golden Girls (that Bea Arthur is a hunka woman..)... but here are some musings on a warm and perfect night in KC for Kluber and the boyz...

One bad pitch.. one sweeeeeet swing.. and the 4 run lead vanished.. The hit by Gordon was no chinker.. it was a BOMB.. He's a good ballplayer.. who worked the count into his favor and got a fastball right in his wheel house. It happens..

Regarding Giambi's DP ground out in the first.. SHAME ON HIM..he should know better than that.. He made up for it with the double later in the game... because.. he DOES know better than that...

Regarding Chisenhall.. no plate discipline or pitch recognition skills what so ever.. none.. throw strike one to him (he'll be taking regardless of where the ball is pitched) and he'll swing at every pitch thrown after than in the at bat.. The thing is.. he has such great hand eye coordination, he can make contact with pitches anywhere below his waist... In my humble opinion, any pitcher for the opposing team that has two strikes on Lonnie should be FINED if he throws a strike to him.. bounce it.. sail it.. drop it, but don't give him anything that could be considered a strike to swing at.. He'll swing at it regardless..

Michael Brantley.. is this guy getting better than he already was?. tremendous play in LF near the stands in foul territory.. Other OF'ers would have been sliding and jumping to make the play.. He made it look easy, gliding along the left field stands in foul territory to make the catch.. Underrated play..but, one of the best you'll see on how it's supposed to be played..

The Pen..one run in four innings..WHAT's with Hagadone and not throwing strikes?!! Nick/Cody/Joe/Vinnie and the Rage.. shut em down.... nice W.. We rock the Kazmir tonight against former tribe # 1 arlo guthrie and his band of reknowns.....

Thoughts?
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:44 am

Giving some thought in consideration of the current status of Trevor Bauer and what it might take to allow him to be the effective SP that has been forecast.. Here are a couple of notes about Homer Bailey's No-No and the types of pitches that made it work...

Homer Bailey is a fastball pitcher..He, like many starting pitchers in the major leagues, has at least a couple of grips for his fastball, a breaking ball of some kind (slider/curve/slurve) and a deception/feel pitch that takes something off his fastball but looks an awful lot like it. That's what he has.. that's what brought him to the majors.. that's what's keeping him in the major leagues.. Last night, he was spot on with his command of his fastball and, his split. He barely threw a breaking ball. In the three innings I watched..not one.. His best pitch was a 94 mph fastball UP in the zone (he topped out at 97 for one pitch). Hanigan, his catcher.. called for the ball UP. Bailey hit the mitt.. Bailey hit the mitt where ever it was placed, but, for his fastball, it was mostly UP.

Trevor Bauer's effectiveness while at UCLA can be traced to him throwing his fastball UP. Coupled with a bugs bunny change up out of the same arm slot that started up, he was devastating.. With the Dbax there were a couple of things going on.. Gibby and his staff didn't want any part of his pregame routine.. They didn't like it because it didn't follow the cookie cutter approach to warming up during pregame. They didn't want him to pitch up in the zone, either. They insisted that he had to work on keeping the ball DOWN thereby giving the opposition less chance to hit a fly ball out of the yard. Frankly, the Dbax gave up on their marriage to Bauer and blamed the kid they were trying to change. A marriage where you expect one spouse or the other to change is dooooooomed to failure.. Don't go there..

Trevor Bauer is a FLY BALL PITCHER. He has to throw is FB UP in the zone for his change up to be effective. It's time to take a step back and look at what made that approach effective..and DO THAT!!. The pitching out of the stretch.. and so on are distractions that have to go away. It's clear that he was attempting to keep the ball down.. In doing so, he wasn't nearly as effective as he needs to be.. I say:

Let Bauer pitch up in the zone..

Leave him alone..

The Indians traded away a pretty important piece of the club (Shin-soo Choo) for the rights to bring this kid into the fold. The road less traveled is needed to get Bauer on the right track. His FB is good enough (like Bailey's last night) to pitch up. The only question remaining..who's gonna tell the Indians?...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ASUTribefan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:52 am

too bad Toronto blew it yesterday, up 6-3 and lost 7-6
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:43 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Giving some thought in consideration of the current status of Trevor Bauer and what it might take to allow him to be the effective SP that has been forecast.. Here are a couple of notes about Homer Bailey's No-No and the types of pitches that made it work...

Homer Bailey is a fastball pitcher..He, like many starting pitchers in the major leagues, has at least a couple of grips for his fastball, a breaking ball of some kind (slider/curve/slurve) and a deception/feel pitch that takes something off his fastball but looks an awful lot like it. That's what he has.. that's what brought him to the majors.. that's what's keeping him in the major leagues.. Last night, he was spot on with his command of his fastball and, his split. He barely threw a breaking ball. In the three innings I watched..not one.. His best pitch was a 94 mph fastball UP in the zone (he topped out at 97 for one pitch). Hanigan, his catcher.. called for the ball UP. Bailey hit the mitt.. Bailey hit the mitt where ever it was placed, but, for his fastball, it was mostly UP.

Trevor Bauer's effectiveness while at UCLA can be traced to him throwing his fastball UP. Coupled with a bugs bunny change up out of the same arm slot that started up, he was devastating.. With the Dbax there were a couple of things going on.. Gibby and his staff didn't want any part of his pregame routine.. They didn't like it because it didn't follow the cookie cutter approach to warming up during pregame. They didn't want him to pitch up in the zone, either. They insisted that he had to work on keeping the ball DOWN thereby giving the opposition less chance to hit a fly ball out of the yard. Frankly, the Dbax gave up on their marriage to Bauer and blamed the kid they were trying to change. A marriage where you expect one spouse or the other to change is dooooooomed to failure.. Don't go there..

Trevor Bauer is a FLY BALL PITCHER. He has to throw is FB UP in the zone for his change up to be effective. It's time to take a step back and look at what made that approach effective..and DO THAT!!. The pitching out of the stretch.. and so on are distractions that have to go away. It's clear that he was attempting to keep the ball down.. In doing so, he wasn't nearly as effective as he needs to be.. I say:

Let Bauer pitch up in the zone..

Leave him alone..

The Indians traded away a pretty important piece of the club (Shin-soo Choo) for the rights to bring this kid into the fold. The road less traveled is needed to get Bauer on the right track. His FB is good enough (like Bailey's last night) to pitch up. The only question remaining..who's gonna tell the Indians?...

I tend to think its his own tinkering that has hurt him. Yeah, I'm sure he needs to make adjustments, but going from the stretch suddenly seems to have hurt him. I'm not a proponent to big changes mid-season. Bauer has mentioned making such corrections for his long term future. I get that, but he still has to remain effective and work in changes instead making drastic changes. Overall, I pretty much agree with all of your sentiments though.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:09 am

ASUTribefan wrote:and out of players with 225 ABs he's 8th, not 11th. thats pretty far from middle of the road especially playing in the AL for the first time, for comparison of guys who hit first in 150 ABs and are switched from NL to AL or vise versa he's 2nd in OBP behind just Choo, thats pretty damn good. .

And Walks are alot more irrelevant then Strikeout rate, thats a fact. I would rather know how many times a hitter is going to give up an automatic out then he's going to walk. He's having about as good a year as you can ask for from him switching leagues. I dont think you understand how hard that is to do in baseball.


Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.

A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out


Actually out of the 22 leadoff guys with at least 200 plate appearances in the leadoff spot, Bourn's OBP ranks 11th in baseball, not 5th. Again, he is middle of the road there as I said, nothing special. Last year he was 10th out of 23 (min 300 PAs). In 2011 he was 11th of 27 (again min 300 PAs). 2010 was 9th of 26 and 2009 was 17th of 27 (min 300 PAs). Never been a top guy there (though never been bad either).

I didn't mention his strikeout rate because it is irrelevant. Striking out with the bases empty is no different than any other out. Can't move a runner over or knock a guy in if no one is on base. A leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than any other spot in the lineup. Bourn can strike out 150+ times and I personally wouldn't be bothered....provided he gets on base. His k-rate is down....yippy.....not really helping him get on base and scoring runs though...

Also, I am not complaining about Bourn. Simply saying I haven't been overly impressed and somewhat disappointed. We did, however, become a better team the moment we signed him. Just want more for what we paid him. Just my opinion, not complaining about the signing either. Would have preferred the money go to pitching but again, did make our offense better and market value wasn't bad (BJ Upton?? eek).

Do like his speed and defense a lot. Has been a sparkplug at the top at times this year, but still would like to see him get on base more. Want him to be more than just a "sparkplug". Be a true game changer.

Will admit that I have never been a big Bourn fan. Always felt he was very overrated offensively (and still feel that way after seeing him in Cleveland). Again though,, not complaining and not saying he is bad...I just personally have been a bit disappointed with him. Again, I may have too high of standards though. Guess I am just disappointed that he is what he is...average leadoff man with great speed and defense. For the money though would want great leadoff man with speed and defense.


Actually he is 7th in OBP among guys with 225 at-bats out of the leadoff spot....but then again there are only 14 guys with 225 at-bats out of the leadoff spots....so again, he is middle of the road.

Switching leagues can be a challenge but not as much as it was 20 years ago. Interleague play and guys switching teams/leagues make it easier (or should) to switch leagues. And while he may be 2nd in OBP among guys who switched leagues and have 150 ABs in the leadoff spot...looks like only 4 such guys exist (Chop, Bourn, Span, Melky Cabrera). Being 2nd of 4 is nothing to brag about. Not sure what this has to do with are discussion as Bourn hasn't been worse since switching to the AL. Just still hasn't been able to get that OBP up to elite levels like I wish he would (probably wishing thinking on my part).

And sorry, but walks are way, way more important/relevant than strikeouts. Not sure where you are getting that the opposite is a "fact"...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:14 am

Tough loss tonight after the delays. Bullpen/defense let us down. Will Smith with the win on Independence Day....

Back in 2nd place (though not a big deal with 4 upcoming against the Tiggers). Hopefully they can come out and take the series tomorrow.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby ASUTribefan » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:04 am

Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:and out of players with 225 ABs he's 8th, not 11th. thats pretty far from middle of the road especially playing in the AL for the first time, for comparison of guys who hit first in 150 ABs and are switched from NL to AL or vise versa he's 2nd in OBP behind just Choo, thats pretty damn good. .

And Walks are alot more irrelevant then Strikeout rate, thats a fact. I would rather know how many times a hitter is going to give up an automatic out then he's going to walk. He's having about as good a year as you can ask for from him switching leagues. I dont think you understand how hard that is to do in baseball.


Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.

A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out


Actually out of the 22 leadoff guys with at least 200 plate appearances in the leadoff spot, Bourn's OBP ranks 11th in baseball, not 5th. Again, he is middle of the road there as I said, nothing special. Last year he was 10th out of 23 (min 300 PAs). In 2011 he was 11th of 27 (again min 300 PAs). 2010 was 9th of 26 and 2009 was 17th of 27 (min 300 PAs). Never been a top guy there (though never been bad either).

I didn't mention his strikeout rate because it is irrelevant. Striking out with the bases empty is no different than any other out. Can't move a runner over or knock a guy in if no one is on base. A leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than any other spot in the lineup. Bourn can strike out 150+ times and I personally wouldn't be bothered....provided he gets on base. His k-rate is down....yippy.....not really helping him get on base and scoring runs though...

Also, I am not complaining about Bourn. Simply saying I haven't been overly impressed and somewhat disappointed. We did, however, become a better team the moment we signed him. Just want more for what we paid him. Just my opinion, not complaining about the signing either. Would have preferred the money go to pitching but again, did make our offense better and market value wasn't bad (BJ Upton?? eek).

Do like his speed and defense a lot. Has been a sparkplug at the top at times this year, but still would like to see him get on base more. Want him to be more than just a "sparkplug". Be a true game changer.

Will admit that I have never been a big Bourn fan. Always felt he was very overrated offensively (and still feel that way after seeing him in Cleveland). Again though,, not complaining and not saying he is bad...I just personally have been a bit disappointed with him. Again, I may have too high of standards though. Guess I am just disappointed that he is what he is...average leadoff man with great speed and defense. For the money though would want great leadoff man with speed and defense.


Actually he is 7th in OBP among guys with 225 at-bats out of the leadoff spot....but then again there are only 14 guys with 225 at-bats out of the leadoff spots....so again, he is middle of the road.

Switching leagues can be a challenge but not as much as it was 20 years ago. Interleague play and guys switching teams/leagues make it easier (or should) to switch leagues. And while he may be 2nd in OBP among guys who switched leagues and have 150 ABs in the leadoff spot...looks like only 4 such guys exist (Chop, Bourn, Span, Melky Cabrera). Being 2nd of 4 is nothing to brag about. Not sure what this has to do with are discussion as Bourn hasn't been worse since switching to the AL. Just still hasn't been able to get that OBP up to elite levels like I wish he would (probably wishing thinking on my part).

And sorry, but walks are way, way more important/relevant than strikeouts. Not sure where you are getting that the opposite is a "fact"...



Switching leagues today is harder then its ever been and the stats back it up. and yes Strikeouts are always and always have been way more important then walks, thats not even close really, anybody who knows even an ounce of baseball knows that
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 am

ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:and out of players with 225 ABs he's 8th, not 11th. thats pretty far from middle of the road especially playing in the AL for the first time, for comparison of guys who hit first in 150 ABs and are switched from NL to AL or vise versa he's 2nd in OBP behind just Choo, thats pretty damn good. .

And Walks are alot more irrelevant then Strikeout rate, thats a fact. I would rather know how many times a hitter is going to give up an automatic out then he's going to walk. He's having about as good a year as you can ask for from him switching leagues. I dont think you understand how hard that is to do in baseball.


Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
ASUTribefan wrote:Just a FWIW but im pretty sure Indians1 is Indians2006 from the Clevelandindians.com message boards, guy can be a huge tool and is always negative.

but Bourn definatley hasn't been a disspointment, he's pretty much played how everyone expected he would, excellent defense, .300 hitter, .350 OBP, im not worried about the lack of SB just yet because it normally takes speedsters a year to adjust to all the new pitchers they see. and he's on pace for the same amount of doubles he hit last year.

Swisher has also been injured and ACab has been great since he came off the DL.


True on Bourn. Guess I just hope for a more from such a big signing. A sub .350 OBP from a leadoff guy....nothing special. Walk rate is at a career low. Do love his defense though. Realize I have high standards for a leadoff guy....lofton likely spoiled that, same with Choo.

True on Swisher and Cabrera being hurt but Cabrera really struggled before the injury. Has looked better but has a ways to go. Swisher probably has been affected by injury but still disappointed to this point IMO.

A sub .350? oh right i forgot .003 is just so far off, whats that 1 plate apperance? some people just like to complain i gess. and if thats nothing special for a Lead-off guy then id hate to see what you think of the other 25 teams in baseball, i believe Bourn is 5th in all of leadoff hitters in OBP.

Strikeout rate is also at a career low which you conveniently leave out


Actually out of the 22 leadoff guys with at least 200 plate appearances in the leadoff spot, Bourn's OBP ranks 11th in baseball, not 5th. Again, he is middle of the road there as I said, nothing special. Last year he was 10th out of 23 (min 300 PAs). In 2011 he was 11th of 27 (again min 300 PAs). 2010 was 9th of 26 and 2009 was 17th of 27 (min 300 PAs). Never been a top guy there (though never been bad either).

I didn't mention his strikeout rate because it is irrelevant. Striking out with the bases empty is no different than any other out. Can't move a runner over or knock a guy in if no one is on base. A leadoff hitter will bat with the bases empty more than any other spot in the lineup. Bourn can strike out 150+ times and I personally wouldn't be bothered....provided he gets on base. His k-rate is down....yippy.....not really helping him get on base and scoring runs though...

Also, I am not complaining about Bourn. Simply saying I haven't been overly impressed and somewhat disappointed. We did, however, become a better team the moment we signed him. Just want more for what we paid him. Just my opinion, not complaining about the signing either. Would have preferred the money go to pitching but again, did make our offense better and market value wasn't bad (BJ Upton?? eek).

Do like his speed and defense a lot. Has been a sparkplug at the top at times this year, but still would like to see him get on base more. Want him to be more than just a "sparkplug". Be a true game changer.

Will admit that I have never been a big Bourn fan. Always felt he was very overrated offensively (and still feel that way after seeing him in Cleveland). Again though,, not complaining and not saying he is bad...I just personally have been a bit disappointed with him. Again, I may have too high of standards though. Guess I am just disappointed that he is what he is...average leadoff man with great speed and defense. For the money though would want great leadoff man with speed and defense.


Actually he is 7th in OBP among guys with 225 at-bats out of the leadoff spot....but then again there are only 14 guys with 225 at-bats out of the leadoff spots....so again, he is middle of the road.

Switching leagues can be a challenge but not as much as it was 20 years ago. Interleague play and guys switching teams/leagues make it easier (or should) to switch leagues. And while he may be 2nd in OBP among guys who switched leagues and have 150 ABs in the leadoff spot...looks like only 4 such guys exist (Chop, Bourn, Span, Melky Cabrera). Being 2nd of 4 is nothing to brag about. Not sure what this has to do with are discussion as Bourn hasn't been worse since switching to the AL. Just still hasn't been able to get that OBP up to elite levels like I wish he would (probably wishing thinking on my part).

And sorry, but walks are way, way more important/relevant than strikeouts. Not sure where you are getting that the opposite is a "fact"...



Switching leagues today is harder then its ever been and the stats back it up. and yes Strikeouts are always and always have been way more important then walks, thats not even close really, anybody who knows even an ounce of baseball knows that


Hermie.. you're wrong and need to give it up.. Bourn is one of the best lead off men in the American League.. Your disappointment is misplaced..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:16 pm

The Tribe is paying now for the lack of a quality minor league organization by the Dolans since they bought the team.

No, drafting & developing is not easy, and it's not an exact science. But, without a productive minor-league organization that develops at least 2 or 3 adequate, major league starting pitchers and minimally a few core position players....most teams have little chance to ever win a championship.

You can make all the high-profile trades, run attractive promotions and hype til the end of time...and in the end, it might end up being an OK business for the owners, but it won't bring home a ring for most franchises.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:52 pm

Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:38 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:50 am

My feeling is once Ubaldo gets to the 6th inning he's on borrowed time and the instant he walks the leadoff hitter he should be pulled.

Pitches 46-60: .264/.692 OPS
Pitches 61-75: .385/1.192

Ubaldo's effectiveness nosedives after 60 pitches. He actually should be pitching long relief in a perfect world.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby BrianM » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:57 am

Interesting stats Prosecutor. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:22 pm

Hmm.. not a pretty ending to the KC series.. their bats versus our pitchers was a slam, or shall I say, grand slam dunk.. Two salamis.. is two too many..

Francona comments: at this juncture, Tito had to know that for whatever reason, Ubaldo wasn't going to get it done. Walking the lead off hitter in the sixth inning was bad and should have triggered the pen to get moving.. walking the next hitter should have yielded action and possible replacement.. When the bases were loaded by the HBP.. time to get him was already passed.. Count this one as a poor decision by Tito.. a poor performance in the 6th inning by Ubaldo.. Up until then, Ubaldo had surrendered three walks and three hits, two were nothings..

Cody Allen giving up the tying home run certainly did't help brighten the mood..

Five innings 100 pitches & the lead.. would have been more than fine.. The Indians bullpen is built for long innings.. use it and replenish it regularly.. IF the starters can go five with a lead..good for the tribe..Six/Seven with the lead.. and it's almost a guaranteed W.. Manning talking about Ubaldo being "only" a five inning pitcher.. is nonsense..

The Indians triumverate of Reynolds, Stubbs & Chisenhall continue on their merry way.. At least two of these three .225 hitters have to contribute to the effort each day for the team to win. They must each continue to play adequate to good defense while they're in there... Stubb has the hits/runs/RBI's for the group today... Lonnie & Mark.. didn't do anything. IN fact, Reynolds seemed like he left a small village on base yesterday..

Great game by Michael Brantley..he needs some of his pals to have days like his...

Onto the Tigers four game wrap around series.. Rick "I turn into Cy Young" Porcello goes for the Motor City Kitties. Should be a warm humid and wet day for the game.. Let's see if Justin Masterson can double up on his last outing.. and shut down the Tigers & get this series off to a good start....
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:56 pm

ASUTribefan wrote:Switching leagues today is harder then its ever been and the stats back it up. and yes Strikeouts are always and always have been way more important then walks, thats not even close really, anybody who knows even an ounce of baseball knows that


Your last statement there is so incredibly comical I can't even argue with you anymore...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:06 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Hermie.. you're wrong and need to give it up.. Bourn is one of the best lead off men in the American League.. Your disappointment is misplaced..


My disappointment very well is misplaced (have sort of admitted that). Guess it depends what you mean by "one of the best" leadoff guys in the AL...as Austin Jackson, Ian Kinsler, Coco Crisp, Nate McLouth, and Jacoby Ellsbury have all been better. If being the 6th best out of 15 teams makes him one of the best in your opinion then that's fine. To me though it doesn't.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess though. Again, don't hate Bourn. Solid leadoff guy, nothing special but good guy to have. Moving on...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:09 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.


Francona has really left me puzzled several times this year with his management of pitchers, not to mention many of his lineup configurations. Starting to wonder if he isnt' a bit rusty from not managing for a year (though never really heard of a manager being "rusty" but still).
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:48 pm

Taking it in the ear tonight shows how important it was to win a game like yesterday's.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:51 pm

Tonight is a prime example of why this team is not a playoff team. Fact. It's also unacceptable to have your ace get out pitched by a guy who had an ERA above 5 coming in. Yet another game in which our starter doesn't make it to the sixth inning, yet alone through the sixth inning. As much as I hate saying it, we might be in for another slide.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:54 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.


Francona has really left me puzzled several times this year with his management of pitchers, not to mention many of his lineup configurations. Starting to wonder if he isnt' a bit rusty from not managing for a year (though never really heard of a manager being "rusty" but still).



And when does Reynolds get some time on the pines to "think about it" for awhile? He has become a black hole in the line up. Mark, April was great - but the season has many more months. The ABs should go to Aviles and Rayburn - until they show they are not worth them.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:59 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.


Francona has really left me puzzled several times this year with his management of pitchers, not to mention many of his lineup configurations. Starting to wonder if he isnt' a bit rusty from not managing for a year (though never really heard of a manager being "rusty" but still).



And when does Reynolds get some time on the pines to "think about it" for awhile? He has become a black hole in the line up. Mark, April was great - but the season has many more months. The ABs should go to Aviles and Rayburn - until they show they are not worth them.


Completely agree. Reynolds needs to sit. Aviles and Raburn are much better options right now. Heck.. even trot Giambi out there one more time a week. (Note: ONE more time a week)
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:42 pm

For those who don't follow me on Twitter.. Since June 1, Reynolds is 17 for 105 (.162) with 0 2B, 2 HR, 6 RBI, 14 BB, and 48 K. Striking out in 46 percent of his at-bats.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:56 am

A.Zajac wrote:Tonight is a prime example of why this team is not a playoff team. Fact. It's also unacceptable to have your ace get out pitched by a guy who had an ERA above 5 coming in. Yet another game in which our starter doesn't make it to the sixth inning, yet alone through the sixth inning. As much as I hate saying it, we might be in for another slide.


Part of me agrees here. Holding out hope we can still contend but the feeling that another slide is coming is still there.

Then again another part of me looks at how bad this team has played to this point yet we are still only 2.5 out of first....gives me some hope if guys like Swisher, Cabrera, Brantley, and Reynolds can pick it up and we get some kind of decent pitching.....very well could be a playoff team.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:01 am

A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.


Francona has really left me puzzled several times this year with his management of pitchers, not to mention many of his lineup configurations. Starting to wonder if he isnt' a bit rusty from not managing for a year (though never really heard of a manager being "rusty" but still).



And when does Reynolds get some time on the pines to "think about it" for awhile? He has become a black hole in the line up. Mark, April was great - but the season has many more months. The ABs should go to Aviles and Rayburn - until they show they are not worth them.


Completely agree. Reynolds needs to sit. Aviles and Raburn are much better options right now. Heck.. even trot Giambi out there one more time a week. (Note: ONE more time a week)


Agree on all counts. Raburn has been one of our 3 best hitters. Need to be in there just about everyday. I would play Giambi a bit more too. His slash line isn't the prettiest but he has one of the best AB/RBI ratios in baseball. Doesn't get many hits but when he does, they seem to be big. Would definitely rather see Aviles out there too, especially on days Chia isn't playing. At least he provides some defense at third worst case.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:36 am

Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.


Francona has really left me puzzled several times this year with his management of pitchers, not to mention many of his lineup configurations. Starting to wonder if he isnt' a bit rusty from not managing for a year (though never really heard of a manager being "rusty" but still).



And when does Reynolds get some time on the pines to "think about it" for awhile? He has become a black hole in the line up. Mark, April was great - but the season has many more months. The ABs should go to Aviles and Rayburn - until they show they are not worth them.


Completely agree. Reynolds needs to sit. Aviles and Raburn are much better options right now. Heck.. even trot Giambi out there one more time a week. (Note: ONE more time a week)


Agree on all counts. Raburn has been one of our 3 best hitters. Need to be in there just about everyday. I would play Giambi a bit more too. His slash line isn't the prettiest but he has one of the best AB/RBI ratios in baseball. Doesn't get many hits but when he does, they seem to be big. Would definitely rather see Aviles out there too, especially on days Chia isn't playing. At least he provides some defense at third worst case.


The Indians have a "pet" at 3rd base now?.. (couldn't resist..lol)

Reynolds sitting.. NOW !! there's an idea worthy of discussion..

Against LHP's?
Against Everyone?

He has been terrible against both LHP's and RHP's.. He's been bad day or night.. He's been bad home or away..the only times he's been good was April..May and June were bad and worse.. Yep..time for some bench time.. If he would at least make contact he'd be worth having in the lineup.. but even that's trending from okay in April to bad in May to Worse in June to horrible in the few games in July..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:15 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Today's loss belongs to Francona. Tolerating two lead off walks in the sixth was unacceptable. Tolerating similar crap from Shaw was also unacceptable.

Francona lost today's game. Some crap must be deemed unacceptable.


Mentioned it on Twitter a few times, but I STILL question why Francona left Ubaldo out there once he loaded the bases.


Francona has really left me puzzled several times this year with his management of pitchers, not to mention many of his lineup configurations. Starting to wonder if he isnt' a bit rusty from not managing for a year (though never really heard of a manager being "rusty" but still).



And when does Reynolds get some time on the pines to "think about it" for awhile? He has become a black hole in the line up. Mark, April was great - but the season has many more months. The ABs should go to Aviles and Rayburn - until they show they are not worth them.


Completely agree. Reynolds needs to sit. Aviles and Raburn are much better options right now. Heck.. even trot Giambi out there one more time a week. (Note: ONE more time a week)


Agree on all counts. Raburn has been one of our 3 best hitters. Need to be in there just about everyday. I would play Giambi a bit more too. His slash line isn't the prettiest but he has one of the best AB/RBI ratios in baseball. Doesn't get many hits but when he does, they seem to be big. Would definitely rather see Aviles out there too, especially on days Chia isn't playing. At least he provides some defense at third worst case.


The Indians have a "pet" at 3rd base now?.. (couldn't resist..lol)

Reynolds sitting.. NOW !! there's an idea worthy of discussion..

Against LHP's?
Against Everyone?

He has been terrible against both LHP's and RHP's.. He's been bad day or night.. He's been bad home or away..the only times he's been good was April..May and June were bad and worse.. Yep..time for some bench time.. If he would at least make contact he'd be worth having in the lineup.. but even that's trending from okay in April to bad in May to Worse in June to horrible in the few games in July..

Are you implying he has a long leash? :confused

I've been a Mark Reynolds fan for yrs. don't really know why, but he's one of those guys when he is on, he is ON. But when he is off, he is OFF.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby timdav » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Trying hard to remember how great the mid-to-late 90's of Indians baseball felt.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:30 pm

timdav wrote:Trying hard to remember how great the mid-to-late 90's of Indians baseball felt.


That's something I will never forget. Maybe it's because I remember how terrible the Indians were in the late 80s/early 90s, losing 100+ games 3 times. Made those mid-to-late 90s teams all the more memorable.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:06 pm

Well it's official, Masterson and Kipnis are your Tribe All-Stars....Santana gets snubbed (despite 3 AL catchers making it). Blue Jays in last place and 3 games under .500 somehow get 3 guys in and a guy on the final vote ballot though. Royals also under .500 get 2...Twins well behind the Tribe gets 2. Guess it could be worse...A's are in 1st place, 14 games over .500, and get 1...Bartolo Colon, an injury replacement for Clay Bucholtz. Donaldson with the 2nd highest OPS of all MLB 3Bs (behind some guy named Miggy Cabrera) doesn't make it. Balfour 4th in saves in the AL and only guy who hasn't blown one...can't even get on the final vote ballot (Robertson?? really, this shit again?). Longoria, Santana, and the A's players seem to be the biggest snubs for the AL club according to most news sources...

Good for Masterson and Kinpis though. Both are very deserving. Masterson may be ineligible to pitch but hopefully Kip will get a shot late in the game to help the AL club out.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby BrianM » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 pm

I don't think Santana has been spectacular or anything, but the Salvador Perez thing doesn't make a lot of sense. At first I thought he was the lone Royal, but then I saw Gordon and was pretty confused. Gordon really has not been all that deserving this year either.

Also don't think Verlander deserves to be on the team. Not surprised he is considering Leyland picked the lineups, but his spot probably should have went to a reliever.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:04 pm

BrianM wrote:I don't think Santana has been spectacular or anything, but the Salvador Perez thing doesn't make a lot of sense. At first I thought he was the lone Royal, but then I saw Gordon and was pretty confused. Gordon really has not been all that deserving this year either.

Also don't think Verlander deserves to be on the team. Not surprised he is considering Leyland picked the lineups, but his spot probably should have went to a reliever.


Gordon sadly does have the 10th best OPS among AL OFers at .784 (heading into today)...6th best is Chris Carter who is at .786. Only 5 AL OFers with an OPS over .800....a pretty lackluster group. Gordon does have a glove and some speed so think that pick is "ok". Agree though, think both teh Royals selections were pretty lacking.

I agree a bit on Verlander though think 6 (soon to be 7) relievers is more than enough for the AL squad. Think Ervin Santana, James Shields and even Bud Norris would have been better picks but can understand why Verlander was chosen. Is 7th in fWAR among AL starters.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:11 pm

Brantley has put the Tribe back up but man, this bullpen situation is getting ugly in a hurry. Had the 2nd worst bullpen in the AL last year are not much better at 11th (heading into today) this year. Tribe has also now given up 130 runs in the 7th inning or later this year...2nd most in the AL (Houston, 141). At least last year you could point to the backend and say they were solid, can't this year. If Tribe doesn't get that fixed, don't care what starter they try to add via trade, not going to be enough to compete.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:38 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Brantley has put the Tribe back up but man, this bullpen situation is getting ugly in a hurry. Had the 2nd worst bullpen in the AL last year are not much better at 11th (heading into today) this year. Tribe has also now given up 130 runs in the 7th inning or later this year...2nd most in the AL (Houston, 141). At least last year you could point to the backend and say they were solid, can't this year. If Tribe doesn't get that fixed, don't care what starter they try to add via trade, not going to be enough to compete.


I think managers are reluctant to move players from roles they have won via past performances. Francona IMO needs to make some calls a manager does not want to do.

1. Reynolds needs to be benched and look for an opportunity to regain his position.

2. Cody Allen IMO needs to move ahead of either Smith or Pestano - perhaps both. Let him fail or succeed. Someting is wrong with Pestano. He needs to work it out in non critical situations.

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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:35 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Well it's official, Masterson and Kipnis are your Tribe All-Stars....Santana gets snubbed (despite 3 AL catchers making it). Blue Jays in last place and 3 games under .500 somehow get 3 guys in and a guy on the final vote ballot though. Royals also under .500 get 2...Twins well behind the Tribe gets 2. Guess it could be worse...A's are in 1st place, 14 games over .500, and get 1...Bartolo Colon, an injury replacement for Clay Bucholtz. Donaldson with the 2nd highest OPS of all MLB 3Bs (behind some guy named Miggy Cabrera) doesn't make it. Balfour 4th in saves in the AL and only guy who hasn't blown one...can't even get on the final vote ballot (Robertson?? really, this shit again?). Longoria, Santana, and the A's players seem to be the biggest snubs for the AL club according to most news sources...

Good for Masterson and Kinpis though. Both are very deserving. Masterson may be ineligible to pitch but hopefully Kip will get a shot late in the game to help the AL club out.


Maybe Cano will play 5 innings, Pedroia three innings.. Zobrist the final inning and The JK Kid/Masterson will have a fun vacation and rest in New York.. That would be the best that could come from this spectacle...
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:45 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Well it's official, Masterson and Kipnis are your Tribe All-Stars....Santana gets snubbed (despite 3 AL catchers making it). Blue Jays in last place and 3 games under .500 somehow get 3 guys in and a guy on the final vote ballot though. Royals also under .500 get 2...Twins well behind the Tribe gets 2. Guess it could be worse...A's are in 1st place, 14 games over .500, and get 1...Bartolo Colon, an injury replacement for Clay Bucholtz. Donaldson with the 2nd highest OPS of all MLB 3Bs (behind some guy named Miggy Cabrera) doesn't make it. Balfour 4th in saves in the AL and only guy who hasn't blown one...can't even get on the final vote ballot (Robertson?? really, this shit again?). Longoria, Santana, and the A's players seem to be the biggest snubs for the AL club according to most news sources...

Good for Masterson and Kinpis though. Both are very deserving. Masterson may be ineligible to pitch but hopefully Kip will get a shot late in the game to help the AL club out.


Maybe Cano will play 5 innings, Pedroia three innings.. Zobrist the final inning and The JK Kid/Masterson will have a fun vacation and rest in New York.. That would be the best that could come from this spectacle...


Disagree. Best thing for Kipnis will be getting into the game and getting some big spotlight experience. Masterson...agree with. As a pitcher he could use the rest.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:11 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Well it's official, Masterson and Kipnis are your Tribe All-Stars....Santana gets snubbed (despite 3 AL catchers making it). Blue Jays in last place and 3 games under .500 somehow get 3 guys in and a guy on the final vote ballot though. Royals also under .500 get 2...Twins well behind the Tribe gets 2. Guess it could be worse...A's are in 1st place, 14 games over .500, and get 1...Bartolo Colon, an injury replacement for Clay Bucholtz. Donaldson with the 2nd highest OPS of all MLB 3Bs (behind some guy named Miggy Cabrera) doesn't make it. Balfour 4th in saves in the AL and only guy who hasn't blown one...can't even get on the final vote ballot (Robertson?? really, this shit again?). Longoria, Santana, and the A's players seem to be the biggest snubs for the AL club according to most news sources...

Good for Masterson and Kinpis though. Both are very deserving. Masterson may be ineligible to pitch but hopefully Kip will get a shot late in the game to help the AL club out.


Maybe Cano will play 5 innings, Pedroia three innings.. Zobrist the final inning and The JK Kid/Masterson will have a fun vacation and rest in New York.. That would be the best that could come from this spectacle...


Zobrist is listed as a DH.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:15 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Well it's official, Masterson and Kipnis are your Tribe All-Stars....Santana gets snubbed (despite 3 AL catchers making it). Blue Jays in last place and 3 games under .500 somehow get 3 guys in and a guy on the final vote ballot though. Royals also under .500 get 2...Twins well behind the Tribe gets 2. Guess it could be worse...A's are in 1st place, 14 games over .500, and get 1...Bartolo Colon, an injury replacement for Clay Bucholtz. Donaldson with the 2nd highest OPS of all MLB 3Bs (behind some guy named Miggy Cabrera) doesn't make it. Balfour 4th in saves in the AL and only guy who hasn't blown one...can't even get on the final vote ballot (Robertson?? really, this shit again?). Longoria, Santana, and the A's players seem to be the biggest snubs for the AL club according to most news sources...

Good for Masterson and Kinpis though. Both are very deserving. Masterson may be ineligible to pitch but hopefully Kip will get a shot late in the game to help the AL club out.


Maybe Cano will play 5 innings, Pedroia three innings.. Zobrist the final inning and The JK Kid/Masterson will have a fun vacation and rest in New York.. That would be the best that could come from this spectacle...


Zobrist is listed as a DH.


Wouldn't be surprised to see him play the OF. AL is pretty weak out there.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby BrianM » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Ever since the commissioner gave the all star game winner home field advantage in the World Series, managers have been putting versatile guys like Zobrist on the teams just in case they were put in a position to need that type player. Stats say he probably never should of made the team either.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:48 am

Nice to see a guy the Indians actually drafted and developed make the All-Star team. That happens about once every ten years. Last one was Sabathia, right?

Chisenhall is hitting .296 since coming back after hitting close to .400 in Columbus. I don't want to jump the gun, but maybe he's finally putting it all together. If he can keep this up in the second half it will be huge.

Brantley just matched his career high in HR's just past the halfway point in the season. They say that a player's power continues to increase into his late 20's, so maybe Brantley is entering the prime of his career as a .280/20/90 guy. He's still hitting well above .300 with RISP. You could make a case for him as a cleanup hitter based on that alone, but I assume Tito will keep him in the #5 or #6 spot.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:37 am

Prosecutor wrote:Nice to see a guy the Indians actually drafted and developed make the All-Star team. That happens about once every ten years. Last one was Sabathia, right?

Chisenhall is hitting .296 since coming back after hitting close to .400 in Columbus. I don't want to jump the gun, but maybe he's finally putting it all together. If he can keep this up in the second half it will be huge.

Brantley just matched his career high in HR's just past the halfway point in the season. They say that a player's power continues to increase into his late 20's, so maybe Brantley is entering the prime of his career as a .280/20/90 guy. He's still hitting well above .300 with RISP. You could make a case for him as a cleanup hitter based on that alone, but I assume Tito will keep him in the #5 or #6 spot.


Response/Musings after a wet night & series loss to the Tigers...

- Asdrubal can't buy a hit right now.. he gets his pitch and fouls it straight back.. then swings and misses.. It's been a tough four or five days for him..

-Chisenhall isn't putting anything together.. he's still swinging at EVERYTHING.. His hand eye coordination and bat skills which are superb allow him to make contact.. He's getting hits while not changing his approach..

-Good observation on Brantley.. Tito putting him in the five hole seems to have created a desire in him to swing harder. Expecting less contact would be the norm, Brantley continues to make the same contact rate but now the ball is flying further and faster.. Nice work by Doctor Smooth...

-Kazmir deserved better.. Great performance on a really crappy night..

-The 9th inning was pure failure by Tito.. With the Indians fastest runner (Stubbs) at second and nobody out.. Chisenhall HAS to bunt.. While it's easy to sit back and say.. "he should have done X.." This time.. Chisenhall HAS to bunt.. If Lonnie gets the bunt down.. the series would have been a split. Instead.. it was a 10th inning bullpen failure..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:46 am

I thought they should have pulled Chisenhall, he still struggles against LHP.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:37 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Nice to see a guy the Indians actually drafted and developed make the All-Star team. That happens about once every ten years. Last one was Sabathia, right?

Chisenhall is hitting .296 since coming back after hitting close to .400 in Columbus. I don't want to jump the gun, but maybe he's finally putting it all together. If he can keep this up in the second half it will be huge.

Brantley just matched his career high in HR's just past the halfway point in the season. They say that a player's power continues to increase into his late 20's, so maybe Brantley is entering the prime of his career as a .280/20/90 guy. He's still hitting well above .300 with RISP. You could make a case for him as a cleanup hitter based on that alone, but I assume Tito will keep him in the #5 or #6 spot.


Response/Musings after a wet night & series loss to the Tigers...

- Asdrubal can't buy a hit right now.. he gets his pitch and fouls it straight back.. then swings and misses.. It's been a tough four or five days for him..

-Chisenhall isn't putting anything together.. he's still swinging at EVERYTHING.. His hand eye coordination and bat skills which are superb allow him to make contact.. He's getting hits while not changing his approach..

-Good observation on Brantley.. Tito putting him in the five hole seems to have created a desire in him to swing harder. Expecting less contact would be the norm, Brantley continues to make the same contact rate but now the ball is flying further and faster.. Nice work by Doctor Smooth...

-Kazmir deserved better.. Great performance on a really crappy night..

-The 9th inning was pure failure by Tito.. With the Indians fastest runner (Stubbs) at second and nobody out.. Chisenhall HAS to bunt.. While it's easy to sit back and say.. "he should have done X.." This time.. Chisenhall HAS to bunt.. If Lonnie gets the bunt down.. the series would have been a split. Instead.. it was a 10th inning bullpen failure..


While I agree on Chiz bunting in the 9th, Gomes striking out next batter up may have made it irrelevant unfortunately.

Disagree on Chiz's approach. There were a few pitches yesterday that were off the plate (and not by much) taht he took that earlier in the year he'd have swung at. Since being recalled Chiz is taking over 36% of pitches he's seen for balls, and in the month of July, he's taken 42% of pitches thrown to him for balls. Obviously the July numbers are from an extremely small sample (only 6 games) but still nice to see. Those July numbers are right in line with Santana (41%) and Kipnis (40%) for the year. Prior to being recalled, Chiz was only taking 32% of pitches he saw for balls. Even if Chiz only sits in that 36-40% range for the year, with his swing that's pretty solid. Asdrubal has only taken 38% of pitches for balls, and Bourn only 35%. Walk rate is at a livable level since returning and over 12% in July. Walk rate since returning is better than Bourn's on the year and right in line with Asdrubal's, so clearly not swinging at "EVERYTHING" (simply watching his ABs lately tells you that too).

Bottom line is Chiz is definitely swinging at better pitches and laying off more of the bad ones since returning. Hopefully that trend can continue. :cool


And yeah, Cabrera is really struggling. Has been for much of the year unfortunately. Just swinging at way too many pitches out of the zone. Hell, he's swinging at more pitches out of the strike zone than Chiz has on the year (not just since Chiz has returned mind you, Chiz on the year). Typically has swung at around 30% of pitches out of the zone but is over 36% this year. Even pitches in the zone he is strugglign to make contact with. Francona dropped Santana lower in the order to start the year, and I really feel it's time to try it with Cabrera. Maybe taking some pressure off him can get him going. Can use guys like Brantley and Swisher at the top in front of Santana and move Kipnis to the 2-hole. Should see better pitches as he'll be up more with men on base, should see more fastballs. Anything to get him going as this club really needs him to hit like he has in the past.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:31 am

Disagree with the irrelevant comment..

If Chiz bunts Stubbs to third..the entire dynamic of the inning changes.. Smokie brings his infield in possibly moving one of his OF'ers to an infield spot. Smyly changes from the stretch to the full wind up, etc, etc. The comfort level Smyly had would have been erased by adding pressure.. Irrelevant after the fact isn't the same as before..
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:08 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Disagree with the irrelevant comment..

If Chiz bunts Stubbs to third..the entire dynamic of the inning changes.. Smokie brings his infield in possibly moving one of his OF'ers to an infield spot. Smyly changes from the stretch to the full wind up, etc, etc. The comfort level Smyly had would have been erased by adding pressure.. Irrelevant after the fact isn't the same as before..


Smyly wouldn't switch to the windup necessarily. Almost no one does that with less than 2 outs. Agree the dynamics of the inning changed but Chiz bunting doesn't equal a win either. It may have but may still have not. Chiz may have popped a bunt attempt up and Stubbs could have been doubled off. Just never know. More likely Gomes is pitched around and they try for the double play. Again though, I would have had Chiz bunting in that situation, so not disagreeing with that....well, at least I would have had him bunting if I had no one to pinch hit him with...

I think a MUCH bigger issue which hasn't been brought is is why was Chiz even up there hitting??!!? Why wasn't Raburn in there pinch hitting once Smyly came in? Or Santana!? Chiz has really struggled against lefties this year. Raburn has been one of our best hitters this year. If you failed to win the game up, Raburn could play 3B (has before) or bring Santana in to catch and Gomes to 3B (played there in the bigs last year), or even move Aviles there and go without a DH for extras (could have used Giambi to pinch hit for the pitcher if the need ever arose). Love how Chiz has looked since back, but facing a tough lefty reliever late in the game? He's hitting .094 off them this year with a .371 OPS. Raburn is hitting .279 with a .970 OPS against lefties. Hell, Raburn's OBP against lefties is higher than Chiz's OPS!! (.380 vs .371)! Not bunting in that situation was one thing...but not pinch hitting was inexcusable.

And to me just as big an issue was probably not pinch hitting Santana for Chiz (if not Raburn) or Gomes in the 9th or Aviles in the 10th. I get that it's a long season and you want to get guys rest, especially your catcher...but the game on the line there against the 1st place team, you go with your best hitter....and Santana has been our best hitter with RISP this year and one of the best in baseball this year. OPS over 1.000 with RISP and nearly 1.000 with RISP and 2 outs. Lots of talk of how good Brantley has been with RISP (and rightly so), but Santana has been as good/better in those situations. Don't lose a game with one of your best hitters on the bench...worse IMO than losing an extra inning game while "saving" your closer. He left not one but two of his better hitters on the bench late (Raburn and Santana).
Last edited by Hermie13 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2013 Cleveland Indians game thread

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:34 pm

Chisenhall HAS to bunt in the 9th. HAS TO. Move the runner over. And if Chisenhall can't bunt, you pinch hit for him with someone who can. It's that simple.

Then in the 10th, you pinch hit Aviles for either Santana or Giambi. If you lose the DH, so be it.

Two critical non-moves on Francona's part. He has way too much confidence in his players sometimes.
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