Future dealings

by **utrocks84** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:00 am

With the advancement of some of the prospects in the minors ie Huff, S. Lewis, Mills, Aubrey, could we see some players at the show level ex Garko, Sowers, Guit or Francisco being dealt for proven bullpen or 3rd base help.

by **TonyIBI** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:22 pm

Most definitely. Players like Garko, Francisco, Gutierrez, Shoppach, Sowers, Laffey and others will all be available this offseason as the Indians begin their quest to fill three big needs: MOR starter, closer, and impact infield bat.

The biggest trading chip of them all will be Shoppach, a catcher that will be coveted by nearly every other team in baseball this offseason. With Victor healthy and expected to resume full-time catching duties next year, the Indians need to strike while the iron is hot with Shoppach. His value may never be higher. Now, you don't just trade him for anything....you trade him for an impact upgrade in one of the three areas listed above.

Scott Lewis has pitched his way into the mix for the #5 spot next year, but could also be a guy teams try to acquire in the offseason. So, he along with Huff could be two potential big trade chips in addition to Shoppach where the Indians can fill one of those needs. It would take a lot to pry away Huff and Lewis as they are cheap, good, and under the team's control for at least the next six years......so I doubt they go anywhere unless the Indians are blown away.

by **dnosco** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:21 pm

Tony,

I hesitate to trade guys like Garko. I would rather trade Beau Mills who I think has greater value BECAUSE he is unproven as compared to Garko who has limited value because of his current worth which is not even as a major league starter.

I think if you try to 'sell' these guys you will get garage sale prices out of them. As you said, the biggest trading chip is Shoppach and that is for the reason you mentioned...his value will never be higher. However, I said the same thing about Laffey and Gutierrez last winter when they were talked about in a Jason Bay trade. Not that, at the time, was I that enamored with Bay. It was just that I thought Gutierrez and Laffey would turn to to be as pedestrian as they have. We should have sold high on those two guys and, that being said, if we can get good value for Shoppach, i.e., over-value, we need to trade him. If you are always trading players for more than they are worth, how could your team NOT get better?

by **TonyIBI** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:44 pm

Denny, points noted.

I think the underlying difference this offseason as compared to last is this team was a win away from the World Series and virtually the whole team could be brought back intact, so there was no pressure by Shapiro to make a deal. But, the team as constructed today, just 10-12 months later is completely different than the 2007 "almost" World Series team....and with that Shapiro may FINALLY be under some pressure to make a significant trade or two and release his tight grip on his prospects. You know, the ones he loves and adores but often does not give them a chance (another subject for another day).

by **jellis** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:38 pm

So whats everyone's view on choo, his second half has been amazing is he a solid hitter with good doubles pop and a cannon in the OF, I know that was his best case projection at one point or is this a guy we should also sell high on? Figured this could cause some solid discussion

by **MadThinker88** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:20 pm

IMHO, players like Mills, LaPorta, Weglarz, Hodges, Santana should not be dealt this offseason.
I am not wanting another season of retread vets but the players I listed above (along with others coming thru the minors) are going to be the core of this team as early as 2010.

The difference between a 1 yr run at the prize and a sustained run at the prize is the ability to fill your needs internally (with plus players) without needing to rely on trades and Free Agent signings to plug the holes that appear from year to year.

by **TonyIBI** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:44 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:IMHO, players like Mills, LaPorta, Weglarz, Hodges, Santana should not be dealt this offseason.
I am not wanting another season of retread vets but the players I listed above (along with others coming thru the minors) are going to be the core of this team as early as 2010.

The difference between a 1 yr run at the prize and a sustained run at the prize is the ability to fill your needs internally (with plus players) without needing to rely on trades and Free Agent signings to plug the holes that appear from year to year.

I agree to an extent.

The Indians need to infuse young talent, but also since they are in win-now mode they need to use some it as currency in a deal. I'd hate to see any of those guys go, but if one has to go in a package for an all-star type player so be it. We have the depth now to trade really any top pitcher or hitter.

by **jellis** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:07 pm

My only concern with hodges is are we sure he can play 3B. Those errors still scare me, this might be the time to package him when his value as a spec is vastly improved, especially if we can land a younger 3B or 2B

by **jagon1119** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:32 pm

Any thoughts on how many of the top guys specifically Hodges, Laporta, Mills, Wegalrz, and to a lesser extent Jordan Brown will be able to play another position other than first base? It seems to me that most of those guys if not all are going to struggle defensively anywhere you put them and with Haf signed as long as he is and the possibility of having Victor move to first either when Santana is ready or if he suffers another arm injury, it seems that there is a huge backlog at that position, without even getting into Garko. If those prospects can't play defensively anywhere but first and DH they should be looking to trade a couple of them while or when their value is highest.

by **TonyIBI** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:57 pm

jagon1119 wrote:Any thoughts on how many of the top guys specifically Hodges, Laporta, Mills, Wegalrz, and to a lesser extent Jordan Brown will be able to play another position other than first base? It seems to me that most of those guys if not all are going to struggle defensively anywhere you put them and with Haf signed as long as he is and the possibility of having Victor move to first either when Santana is ready or if he suffers another arm injury, it seems that there is a huge backlog at that position, without even getting into Garko. If those prospects can't play defensively anywhere but first and DH they should be looking to trade a couple of them while or when their value is highest.

It is of my belief that one of those guys will be dealt this offseason in a deal where the Indians look to acquire an impact closer, starting pitcher, or infielder.

For those that remain, LaPorta and Weglarz can handle left field. In fact they'd be no worse than what Albert Belle was when he was here. You hit 30-40 bombs and drive in 100, and defense takes a backseat, especially in LF. Hodges is an adequate third baseman and I don't see him moving from there. Mills could always go back to third base if his shoulder is okay and the need arises.

by **utrocks84** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:32 am

I'm a little shy about trading a player like Shppach, we really don't have catching depth that has proven they can hit major league or triple A pitching. With Martinez history of injuries, Quads, Hamstrings, elbow if we need to play for an extended time it could hurt us next year. I know his value is high right now, but having him catch 80 games next year prolongs Vic's behind the plate career. I worry about trading proven everyday players for pitching, prospects are another thing.

by **TonyIBI** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:55 am

The problem is, is Shoppach more valuable playing 50-60 games in a backup role next year and us still having a gaping hole at 3B or at the backend of the bullpen.....or having someone like Toregas backup with Gimenez/Santana after that and using Shoppach to fill one of those holes?

There is nothing in FA to fill these needs, especially not for what they will be paid. The Indians will need to make a significant trade to do it, and Shoppach is the trading chip they need to do it. I know people worry about Martinez, but really his two injuries happened on the first day of the season and happened running bnases in cold weather. Catching is arguabley our deepest position and biggest strength.

Now, I am not saying trade Shoppach for whatever....he needs to be in a deal for a proven player....an impact player at a position of need.

by **jagon1119** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:29 pm

Tony, You said that they should trade one of the top prospects in your opinion which one? I am very hesitant to part with Mills but as I see ithe is the most valuable. But Prospects being what they are isn't there a huge risk they end up dealing a star?

by **TonyIBI** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:50 pm

jagon1119 wrote:Tony, You said that they should trade one of the top prospects in your opinion which one? I am very hesitant to part with Mills but as I see ithe is the most valuable. But Prospects being what they are isn't there a huge risk they end up dealing a star?

They definitely do risk it.

But considering the Indians are in a win now mode for next year, and their needs can't be addressed in FA, they are likely going to have to part with a prospect or two this offseason to get the impact player(s) they need. I think the system is at a point where we could afford to trade almost anyone. Do note, if they do trade a couple of the prospects they have to get back excellent value.

Gonna be an interesting offseason.

by **jellis** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:34 am

I think SD might be the team to talk to about shoppach, Kouz having a solid year I wonder if they would be tempted to move headley I know hes been playing LF but they might move him for proven power at catcher where Micheal Barret started the year, they are a team that also use one of our extra arms when Shawn Estes is your third starter thats not a good thing, but hey thats just my thought on who I would love to see us target

by **StressFree** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:24 pm

Does anyone foresee JD Martin making it onto the 40 man roster? He had several good starts, and a very good season overall. Not so good in his last start though...

by **TonyIBI** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:48 pm

JD is a bubble guy.

He either gets rostered, or is lost in minor league free agency or Rule 5. Either way, if the Indians want to keep him he has to be rostered.

by **indianinkslinger** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:45 am

This is a tough year and I agree we will have to part with some flesh to fill our openings. Shoppach is the best trade bait we have. Add in one of our LH starters and an OF from Benny, Gutz and Trevor and we might be able to fill most of our needs. I am not sure I would part with any of the big 4 (LaPorta, Santana, Weglarz, Mills) because all of these prospects fill serious power shortcomings. Seriously, I can see an OF of Weglarz, Sizemore and LaPorta with Mills at 1B and Santana at Catcher in 2010.

by **MadThinker88** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:40 am

This might interest some people (as they are focusing on the Tribe)

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/09/o ... ou-13.html

by **TheWord** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:16 am

I would love to add Robinson Cano or Mark Ellis via trade/free agency.

In terms of value, Shoppach is never going to be higher, just because we haven't seen the other catching in this system doesn't mean it isn't suitable. I would most certainly move Shoppach in the right deal, and the Yankees/Cano make sense, as Posada is coming off injury and who knows about Pudge.

Untouchables:
Mills
Rondon
Huff
Abreu
LaPorta
Santana
De La Cruz

Valuable trade chips at the higher levels:
Shoppach
Weglarz - I just don't see it, power isn't supposed to go down
Garko
Francisco
Head
Crowe

Make or break offseason for Shapiro, this team needs to compete NOW.

by **TonyIBI** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:44 am

In my view, there are absolutely no untouchables. We have 3-4 plus hitters and can afford to lose any of the four....and all the pitchers are not FOR guys and we have depth to replace them. So, to me everyone is available. Gotta say though, if Shoppach is traded for Cano I might might stab myself to death with a spork.

by **TheWord** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:30 pm

Not a fan of Cano?

by **TonyIBI** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:46 pm

TheWord wrote:Not a fan of Cano?

I like him. But no way am I trading Shoppach for that. Yankees would have to send us more.

Ideally, I would use Shoppach as a headliner in a trade for a FOR starter, like Peavy if as rumored he truly will be available this offseason. After that, use a package of two good prospects for Roberts/Uggla.

by **jellis** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:48 pm

Consigliere wrote:
TheWord wrote:Not a fan of Cano?

I like him. But no way am I trading Shoppach for that. Yankees would have to send us more.

Ideally, I would use Shoppach as a headliner in a trade for a FOR starter, like Peavy if as rumored he truly will be available this offseason. After that, use a package of two good prospects for Roberts/Uggla.

it sounds like peavy isnt on the block but he is available I would think bare minimum for peavy would be huff, shoppach, and laporta though so its a hard deal to consider. I mean hes got a reasonable contract for 2 or 3 more years right?

by **jellis** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:49 pm

TheWord wrote:Not a fan of Cano?

hes not a great second baseman who you know is going to play like crap in the first half then typically gets hot in the second half, not sure I would ever be happy with a guy who hits like 240 before the break every year

by **indianinkslinger** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:46 pm

jellis wrote:
TheWord wrote:Not a fan of Cano?

hes not a great second baseman who you know is going to play like crap in the first half then typically gets hot in the second half, not sure I would ever be happy with a guy who hits like 240 before the break every year

If Shoppach goes to the Yankees, I want nothing less that Phillip Hughes, not some overpaid budget busting 2B. There are other clubs that have prospects or decent players to deal that aren't the most overpaid in baseball. There are other teams who want Shoppach who have more suitable players.

by **Jennifer** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:50 am

From Hoynes:

Last winter when the Indians discussed trades, they pushed prospects. The other team, in addition to prospects, always seemed to want a player or two off their big league roster. GM Mark Shapiro, with the idea of keeping the 2007 team intact, said no.

This year, with the injection of young players they received from the CC Sabathia and Casey Blake trades, the Indians could be more willing to trade prospects and a piece or two off their big league club to get the right kind of player.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... er_18.html

by **GhostofTedCox** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:31 pm

Dan Uggla has been a name rumored to be available. The Marlins are not too flexible when they ask for your prospects in return. Here's a blog that mentions the Marlins might be looking for catching. (not Shoppach I hope).

http://www.fishstripes.com/2008/10/14/6 ... -trading-b

by **TonyIBI** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:10 pm

I would prefer not to trade Shoppach for a position player and instead use his bullet in a deal that Shapiro is supposedly looking to acquire a FOR starter.......but if I had to I'd deal Shoppach plus another player for Uggla.

by **artgold** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:45 am

Absolutely, positively don't want Uggla. Take a look at his AB/K rate, and how it has evolved the last few years. Also, take a look at his batting after the All Star break.

Wouldn't consider acquiring him at all.

by **endlesssleeper** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:57 am

To me, besides the fact that he plays second base, Dan Uggla is the exact same player as Kelly Shoppach. Tons of K's, about 20-30 hrs. I'm not sure I'd make that trade.

by **artgold** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:06 pm

I was considering Michael Young of Texas, but he is signed for the next five years at a guaranteed $16 million per year. I don't want any part of that, unless Texas is willing to pick up a chunk of that obligation.

So that is out.

by **jellis** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:12 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:To me, besides the fact that he plays second base, Dan Uggla is the exact same player as Kelly Shoppach. Tons of K's, about 20-30 hrs. I'm not sure I'd make that trade.

i agree hes the same player cept 2B is more a need then catcher so why not work a deal out, I dont like Uggla but it would be a last resort for me if there was no one else out there

by **TheWord** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:33 pm

Don't forget that Uggla is a well below average 2nd baseman.

Not to mention he plays in a terrible division, we would certainly see a drop in numbers coming to the AL Central.

by **jellis** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:47 pm

according to olney today uggla would only be traded if they were blown away, he also comments on Hafner in his video blog about how the damage found in his shoulder which was more than had been expected

by **Jennifer** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:25 pm

jellis wrote:according to olney today uggla would only be traded if they were blown away, he also comments on Hafner in his video blog about how the damage found in his shoulder which was more than had been expected

It was more than expected but that is actually good news because it suggests the shoulder might really be the cause of his problem. All Andrews did was clean out a joint in a 45 minute procedure. Physical threapy begins tomorrow and he is expected to be ready by the start of the season.

by **gotribe31** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:27 pm

We will see the return of Pronk yet!

by **jellis** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:53 pm

gotribe31 wrote:We will see the return of Pronk yet!

if he could return to forum that would be biggest news of next year at least to me

by **Hermie13** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:33 pm

jellis wrote:My only concern with hodges is are we sure he can play 3B. Those errors still scare me, this might be the time to package him when his value as a spec is vastly improved, especially if we can land a younger 3B or 2B

Hodges was rated (by Baseball America) as the best defensive 3B in the Carolina League (high-A) in 2007. He made a lot of errors this year but so do a lot of so called 'good' defensive 3Bs. Adrian Beltre won a gold glove last year making a ton of errors at 3B. Don't see Hodges winning any Gold Gloves, but he'll manage at 3B. Mills is the guy that's probably done at 3B sadly.

I'd be willing to part with any of our prospects...except for LaPorta (unless Peavy agreed to come to Cleveland...then I'd consider it). Hodges, Mills, Huff, and Miller are some nice trade chips. Throw in Shoppach, Barfield, and the 'other' OFers at the ML level and we could easily fill all 3 holes on this club this winter.

by **dazindiansfanuk** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:59 pm

"Best Defensive" awards from BA mean absolutely nothing.

Historically those awards are given to good hitters at the position regardless of their defensive prowess.

For example, Victor Martinez won the award in the Carolina League and Eastern League (Vic was not a great defensive catcher in the minors - much better now), Beau Mills won the award at 1B this year, Corey Smith and Andy Marte won the award too.

Means nothing.

I'm not commenting on Hodges defensive, just that BA's award means very little.

by **TonyIBI** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:34 pm

Yeah, Hodges probably at best ends up an average defensive 3B, maybe slightly above average. Of course, if he hits, no one will care about that. Lots of people think he ends up at first base though. We'll see.

by **jellis** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:44 pm

Consigliere wrote:Yeah, Hodges probably at best ends up an average defensive 3B, maybe slightly above average. Of course, if he hits, no one will care about that. Lots of people think he ends up at first base though. We'll see.

I see a lot of edwin Encarnation in Hodges and I dont mean it in a good way

by **Hermie13** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:53 am

TheWord wrote:Don't forget that Uggla is a well below average 2nd baseman.

Not to mention he plays in a terrible division, we would certainly see a drop in numbers coming to the AL Central.

He's only a below average defensive 2B (offensively he's one of the best)....and he's not 'that' bad at 2B. Plus could possibly be moved to 3B where he played more in the minors than 2B.

And a terrible division? Phillies are in the WS, Mets nearly won the WC, and the Marlins were there til the last week. Braves are no pushovers either.

The NL East is a much better division (at least this year) than the AL Central was.

Hodges is a lot better than Encarnacion defensively. I see more Blake defensively. Good....but no gold glover.

Don't see him moving to 1B. He hits too well and plays well enough to warrant 3B. He value diminishes way too much moving to 1B....

by **TheWord** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:14 pm

It remains to be seen if he will hit well enough for 3rd base.

It all depends on if we see 1st half Hodges, or 2nd half Hodges.

by **jellis** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:07 pm

TheWord wrote:It remains to be seen if he will hit well enough for 3rd base.

It all depends on if we see 1st half Hodges, or 2nd half Hodges.

I agree bad defense plus inconsistent makes me thing TRADE BAIT

by **Hermie13** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:53 am

Him being a top prospect and lots of teams that are good matches need a 3B......definately a good trade bait candidate (SF, Bal, FL, and Cincy could all use him and have something the Tribe needs)...

by **TheWord** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:13 pm

I wouldn't exactly call him a top prospect.

I'd be surprised to see him in the top 100 in the league.

by **Hermie13** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:26 pm

Baseball Prospectus had Hodges as a top 100 prospect going into the 2008 season (78th)....improving won't drop him out either.

by **jellis** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:20 pm

so I know its hard to consider ever trading with the enemy but should the Indians approach Boston about a masterson for shoppach trade, there would be moire parts but to me that wpi;d be the crux of the deal and masterson who solidify the Indians pen

I am sorry but Shoppachs historic K rate scares me

by **Hermie13** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:56 pm

I don't think Masterson could be had for Shoppach (at least not straight up).....but perhaps Daniel Bard (100mph fastball as a reliever) and Oscar Tejeda (young SS, compared to Alfonso Soriano). Bard would likely see time in the Indians pen at some point in 2009. We need some hard throwers and you never know how Miller's health will hold up. And middle IF depth is still a problem in the system, so Tejeda would be a nice addition.

I'd love to get Masterson though (who wouldn't?). Maybe if we took Lugo off their hands for them we'd get Masterson.....but that's a lot of money to take on (give up Looch to help out perhaps, but even then it's a lot of dough).

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