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MLB Hot Stove

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby ChadS17 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:42 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Call me crazy, but I'd still like to see the Tribe add an OF like the Dbax did for depth. Maybe a young bat that could serve as a 4th OF and DH on occasion w/ the potential to move Swisher to 1b in the future. It could also give the Tribe the ability to move Brantley or Stubbs in the future for young SP.

IF the Tribe could add a SP like Myers or even Marcum (on a 1 yr deal) this team could really make the AL Central interesting, IMO.


Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but I am wondering if, speaking of the Diamondbacks, Jason Kubel wouldn't be a good fit here. Could serve as the primary DH and spell Stubbs in the outfield against righties on occasion, thus giving the spot the "flexibility" with Aviles in the mix as well. Thoughts?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 pm

ChadS17,

My first thought is Kubel could be a fit here if the Tribe and Dbax get together on a deal again. I wouldn't rule it out bc there has been a lot of dialogue between the two clubs which I think is evident in the Trevor Bauer deal. That being said, based upon what the Tribe has done and expressed what they would like to do - add players who are controllable for a number of yrs (Swisher 4/5, Bauer 6, Stubbs 3, Shaw 5, Albers 1, Aviles 2, Wood 4, McGuiness 6, Reynolds 1) and some / most pre-arb yrs. All of this said I think they would look at a young controllable OF like Parra instead and focus their resources ($$$) in the pitching department from here on.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:46 am

indians1 wrote:I again applaud the indians for being aggressive but was the decision smart? \

They overpaid for a 32 year old guy that had a lot of help around him. I think he ends up being really good in terms of leadership and could help next year, but what happens as he gets older. Will he put up similar numbers with a lineup that doesn't give him the help he got from having all those good yankee hitters around him.????

The indians gave up a 2nd round pick. The indians just gave out the richest contract in franchise history to Nick Swisher???

Is that good business. The indians to me are a schizophrenic franchise that doesn't play the game by a certain philosophy.

I hope this signing works out and we get great play from swisher, but at 33 -36 years old, that could be asking alot.


Technically not the richest contract in franchise history, at least not yet. Hafner got $57M. This was simply the richest to a free agent (Hafner re-signed while still under contract). I get your point here though. But really the Tribe is never gonna get a guy much better than Swisher to come here as a free agent so him having the largest free agent deal really doesn't sound that bad to me.

I really don't think they overpaid at all for Swisher. $14M for what he brings is actually pretty fair in today's game. Upton had a sub .300 OBP and got more money. Yeah he's younger and a CFer but I like this deal better even with the age difference.

Fair point on the lineup he was in but think he'll be fine in Cleveland. Sure runs/RBIs may come down but his OBP could actually go up if he's pitched around some. Though Swisher could have a guy like Santana hitting behind him or Cabrera so not like he'll have bums protecting him in the lineup.

Also don't think losing a 2nd round pick is that bad. Yeah sucks losing the pick (Kipnis was a 2nd rounder) and money with it but getting a guy like Swisher is a fair tradeoff, plus have that extra competitive balance pick helps.

We'll have him for his 32 thru 35 year old seasons maybe 36. Guys with his skill set have lasted that long at a reasonably high level. Course there are examples of guys that bombed too (Bay).
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:53 am

GoTribe028 wrote:Glad Swisher proved me wrong and signed after leaving without a deal.

Good work Chris Antonetti and Terry Francona. Now go get me Chris Capuano and Brett Myers and if you're felling frisky see what Chris Perez can bring.


If you want one of those guys you may have to trade Perez. I got the Tribe payroll around $67M with Swisher in tow, which is about what it was last year. Thought Antonetti mentioned payroll was going to be similar to last year?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:36 am

Hermie,

I'm just curious what figure ($) did you use on Swisher I'm looking at the payroll here under IBI's payroll tab and including all of Mark Reynolds incentives which places the Tribe at $52 M adding Swisher's $11 M in 2013 and it looks like they are at $63 M, which gives them wiggle room to add a LHRP and a SP, IMO.

The Tribe could easily move a cpl pieces to offset the price tag and add talent to the org. What I have in mind...IF the Tribe traded CPerez to the Dodgers for Capuano, Gordon. The Tribe could also, flip a BP arm like Joe Smith or Albers for a LHRP.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:08 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:ChadS17,

My first thought is Kubel could be a fit here if the Tribe and Dbax get together on a deal again. I wouldn't rule it out bc there has been a lot of dialogue between the two clubs which I think is evident in the Trevor Bauer deal. That being said, based upon what the Tribe has done and expressed what they would like to do - add players who are controllable for a number of yrs (Swisher 4/5, Bauer 6, Stubbs 3, Shaw 5, Albers 1, Aviles 2, Wood 4, McGuiness 6, Reynolds 1) and some / most pre-arb yrs. All of this said I think they would look at a young controllable OF like Parra instead and focus their resources ($$$) in the pitching department from here on.


I thought Kubel might be a good fit at DH here.
Then I took a closer look at some stats from last season:

Drew Stubbs 166 SO
Mark Reynolds 159 SO
Jason Kubel 151 SO

That's a lot of nothing going on.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:27 am

Ghost of Ted Cox,

That would definitely be too many K's for the lineup, but would add power if he were brought in. I wouldn't rule it out bc if ACab is dealt they may look to add a 4th OF that could hit / DH on occasion. Another guy who doesn't seem to be getting much play on the FA mkt is Delmon Young who might come cheap as Winter goes on and he remains unsigned. Young is recovering from ankle surgery, I believe and won't be healthy until late January from my understanding. I don't think he's that high on anyone's list and rightfully so but he might offer a bat for spot duty and maybe a minimal amount of LF action. I'd really like to see the Tribe move aggressively for Cuban defector Dariel Alvarez but honestly my interest is based solely on numbers and a very few rough video's of him.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:18 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:ChadS17,

My first thought is Kubel could be a fit here if the Tribe and Dbax get together on a deal again. I wouldn't rule it out bc there has been a lot of dialogue between the two clubs which I think is evident in the Trevor Bauer deal. That being said, based upon what the Tribe has done and expressed what they would like to do - add players who are controllable for a number of yrs (Swisher 4/5, Bauer 6, Stubbs 3, Shaw 5, Albers 1, Aviles 2, Wood 4, McGuiness 6, Reynolds 1) and some / most pre-arb yrs. All of this said I think they would look at a young controllable OF like Parra instead and focus their resources ($$$) in the pitching department from here on.


Yes.. the interest level for a position player will remain however minor that may be. Teams coming to the Indians along with CA going to clubs with a stock pile of Back of the Pen arms and an impact SS will definitely take notice. The Indians now have 11 pitchers who have major league credentials in the pen. The ideal situation remains the Cardinals and their lengthy list of SP's, the Mariners (still my favorite to make a deal) and, perhaps the Dodgers or Pirates now that they've moved their Closer and still need a SS. One thing that appears to be on the back burner at this time may make its way back to the front burner after the holidays:

Kevin Towers got an absolute REEEAAAMMING by the SnakePit and other voices of discontent in the valley of the sun over the Bauer deal. Another deal might become painful for him, however, the Rangers are finding the market for the big bat they covet has dried up and the already uber thin market for FOR SP's is even worse. After swinging and missing twice, the Rangers may be a bit more amenable to making a deal that includes some guys that weren't necessarily considered 'available' during the Winter Meetings block buster deal that fell through..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:59 pm

GeronimoSon,

I completely agree, CA is actually holding the cards so to speak in a number of deals...The Tribe has a ridiculous amount of depth at SS with real big league talent on the way and a TON of RP to deal from as well, with some not even on the 40 - man roster yet...

The Cards and Mariners seemingly are the best fits for a trade with the Dodgers also a match. The fact is a number of teams will turn to upgrade their bullpens as SP is seemingly running thin on the FA mkt.

I'll revisit the trade suggestion from a day or two ago...

Cards get...
ACab
Justin Masterson
Marson
Albers

Indians get...
Lynn
Kelly
Tavares
Adams

Let me break the deal down a bit differently for a second, here's kind of another slightly different look at it.
-Indians send the Cards: ACab and Albers for...Lynn and Adams
-indians send the Cards: Masterson and Marson for...Kelly and Tavares

Overall, the deals IMO are equal value / a fair trade suggestion.

Why? ACab is an AS SS that would fill the need of the Cards in the IF, either at SS or 2b. Albers would provide the Cards a BP arm to help offset the loss of pitching. Now unto the rest of the deal, Justin Masterson would provide the Cards a big durable SP with upside of #2 SP. Lou Marson would provide the Cards depth at the C position and potentially a solid backup. Overall, the Cards could fortify their roster with the addition of ACab in the middle of the diamond, the Cards would gain some middle of the diamond depth, Masterson would provide a big durable SP that could offset the loss of Lynn easily and help the rotation in case of injury to any of the Cards SP. The Cards would land 2 big pieces in ACab and Masterson that could put them over the proverbial hump, as the Cards finished on the cusp of a WS birth.

What would the Tribe gain from this deal? The Tribe would gain four young controllable players, beyond that two young SP who would add depth and qlty to the Tribes rotation for a number of yrs. Lynn and Kelly both project as number 3 starters in the future, IMO. Beyond that, Oscar Tavares is a huge talent that could easily man any OF spot with ease and near MLB ready. Matt Adams would add a potential long term slugging 1b / DH.

At some point I think we could see these teams meet up on a deal. Because of ACab's positional flexibility there are a number of options in deals which provides the Tribe more opportunity to make a deal the that helps the Tribe out short and long term.

Here's a look a the Cardinals current rotation and a few depth starters too...
1. Wainwright
2. Carpenter
3. Westbrook
4. Lynn
5. Garcia
Others: Miller, Kelly, Rosenthal, Martinez, Gast, Wacha, Lyons, Jenkins, Blair, Seigrist
Also: Kyle Lohse who is a FA, may re-sign with the Cards.

To say the very least the Cards have real SP depth.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:15 pm

An issue that could be raised, and a valid issue it would be, is the question of 'what's next' from the Cardinals perspective. While I'm certain the pitching match ups you've enumerated will work one way or another (I like all of them, especially Joe Kelly ), the issue the cards have coming at them is the age of their OF with Holiday and Beltran.. While I'd love to get Taveras and his potent stick.. I doubt the Cardinals would give him up unless they were really getting blown away.. Like with the future SS to go with Kolten Wong.. You know.. instead of sending Masterson.. maybe? thoughts?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:28 pm

Agreed hadn't thought about the age of their OF, the Tribe has few to offer but the Cards do have Matt Carpenter who can play a number of spots effectively and spent a high pk on college SR. James Ramsey.

The Cards run their org. well and slotting Lindor in for Masteron and Shaw for Albers might get that kind of deal done. Here's what I'm saying...

Indians get...
Lynn
Kelly
Tavares
Adams

Cards get...
ACab
Lindor
Shaw
Marson
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby BrianM » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:44 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Agreed hadn't thought about the age of their OF, the Tribe has few to offer but the Cards do have Matt Carpenter who can play a number of spots effectively and spent a high pk on college SR. James Ramsey.

The Cards run their org. well and slotting Lindor in for Masteron and Shaw for Albers might get that kind of deal done. Here's what I'm saying...

Indians get...
Lynn
Kelly
Tavares
Adams

Cards get...
ACab
Lindor
Shaw
Marson


I would make this trade. I wonder how a team would react if we offered to potentially shore up their SS position for about 8 years?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:56 pm

BrianM wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Agreed hadn't thought about the age of their OF, the Tribe has few to offer but the Cards do have Matt Carpenter who can play a number of spots effectively and spent a high pk on college SR. James Ramsey.

The Cards run their org. well and slotting Lindor in for Masteron and Shaw for Albers might get that kind of deal done. Here's what I'm saying...

Indians get...
Lynn
Kelly
Tavares
Adams

Cards get...
ACab
Lindor
Shaw
Marson


I would make this trade. I wonder how a team would react if we offered to potentially shore up their SS position for about 8 years?


I agree with Brian as Moz is the kind of GM that would think exactly like that.. settling a premium position (SS) for eight years is the way to go. The only thing left is who breaks the news to the naysayers on this site that the SpreadSheet Geek has struck again !!.. that and the same type of analysis for a deal with the Mariners...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Interesting note on the USS Mariner website about the ongoing disappointment with Jack Z, their GM. There is a means to an end w/r to the circumventing the draft pick compensation loss for a team who has ALREADY signed a FA who received a qualifying offer...
...There are rumors circulating (see mlbtr) in regard to how a team might be able to circumvent the draft pick compensation rules. Essentially, a team like “Cleveland” who already has a protected first round pick and has already surrendered its second round pick – could act as a sign and trade conduit – and be compensated for their “lost value” of a 3rd round pick by the team that is interested in the FA, but not interested in losing THEIR own first round pick.
I would like to believe the team knows what it is doing and is “tracking” toward a master plan, but I understand the angst. On the surface, a lot of things don’t appear to make sense, but what we see now is not going to be the finished product.
Probably.


So, let's say the Indians sign Michael Bourn and give up that third round pick & associated money for the draft, his team gets the comp pick between the first and second rounds..

The Indians then trade Bourn to the M's along with.. (fill in one of my usual crazy or not so crazy solutions to both teams' needs) and VOILA !!. .the M's keep their first round pick.. Michael Bourn is an M and the Indians get their next Bauer in a neat little package..

Thoughts?
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BTW... What if it's Nick Swisher WHO the M's really want?..with Asdrubal carrying his bags? Think maybe a deal could be arranged where both sides REALLY get what they want?.. and Bourn gets to tell his family that his agent knows what he's doing as he sits around the Christmas dinner table explaining why he's out of work?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:31 pm

The Mariners are another club we've 'talked' about a number of times. The Mariners are seeking offensive upgrades all across the board and match well with the Tribe bc of the young pitching and the depth of their minor league system.

Here's a trade I could the Mariners and Tribe match up for...

M's get...
ACab
Albers

Indians get...
James Paxton
Brandon Maurer
Justin Smoak OR Brendan Ryan

Smoak would be a buy low type, personally I think he could be an interesting add, he's struggled in Seattle but is still a young (26) bat with a good prospect pedigree. OR... Brendan Ryan would provide the Tribe with a UTIL type who could help at a number of positions, solely as defensive replacement type / bench help.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:48 pm

Personally, I think the Tribe should look to pull off a sign and trade or two if they can. I'm not sure if MLB would try to step in but perhaps the Tribe could do a sign and trade of Michael Bourn to the Mariners for Brandon Maurer or as I think G'Son was proposing doing something a bit larger.

Here's an idea...

M's get...
Michael Bourn
ACab

Indians get...
Brandon Maurer
Francisco Martinez
Gabriel Guerrero
Victor Sanchez
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:33 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Personally, I think the Tribe should look to pull off a sign and trade or two if they can. I'm not sure if MLB would try to step in but perhaps the Tribe could do a sign and trade of Michael Bourn to the Mariners for Brandon Maurer or as I think G'Son was proposing doing something a bit larger.

Here's an idea...

M's get...
Michael Bourn
ACab

Indians get...
Brandon Maurer
Francisco Martinez
Gabriel Guerrero
Victor Sanchez


You kept Victor Sanchez in your trade.. you see what I did?. I don't know much about Garbriel Guerrero other than he's more of a soft tossing lefty than a FOR / upside SP. Other guys you might want to add or replace GeeGee with could include Carson Smith, Yoervis Medina, or one of the guys I originally suggested, Leon Landry...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:41 pm

Gabriel Guerrero the 18 yo Dominican OF, nephew of Vladimir Guerrero here's a link...
http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.js ... pid=602115

Getting him would be like adding another Paulino to the org. He's only 18 but could have big upside, I believe Fangraphs raved about him, that's where I first took notice of Victor Sanchez as well. Two very young high upside guys.

Fan graphs top 15 M's prospects...
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... s-2012-13/
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:05 pm

Another way teams could work a sign and trade deal is to make it future considerations, specifically acq. a teams competitive balance lottery pk or international spending pool slots. These both are tradable assets but not until the beginning of a season. So in essence the Tribe could be very creative and pull off a sign and trade deal or two and actually come out for the better inspite of losing a draft pk and spending pool money.

Here's a few examples how a deal or two could be worked...

Indians sign Bourn 5 yrs / $70 M and trades him to the Mariners the Tribe would lose their third rd pk (after losing their second pk) and could acq. future considerations in the form of...

1. Prospect(s),
2. International spending pool money,
3. A competitive balance pk - if the other team received one.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:55 pm

Figure most will be away from the computers tomorrow so I just wanted to wish you all a Merry Christmas
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:03 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:Figure most will be away from the computers tomorrow so I just wanted to wish you all a Merry Christmas


Thanks for that 028.. enjoy the day Merry Christmas to you and everyone else who posts here... be with those close to you.. and be ready for the big news on Wednesday... ?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:25 pm

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all!
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:27 am

Here's a few quotes from CA from in interview with Glenn Moore on 12-14-12. They are a cpl wks old now and some if not many may have read these but I'm reading them again looking for some clues as to what the Tribe will look to do through the remainder of the offseason.

*Does adding bullpen arms mean Tribe is looking to move Chris Perez?

"We will continue to improve our outfield alternatives and our starting pitching alternatives. Those are probably the two areas, not only at the Major League level, but at the immediate upper levels of our Minor Leagues where we can add some depth. So probably we will focus our energy on those two spots."

*On starting rotation:

"I am really, personally, excited to see Carlos Carrassco come back, because it's a guy that has had really great stuff. And before he suffered the injury, was pitching very well at the Major League level and really thought was turning a corner in his career. We're excited to get him back. We're excited to see him compete and reclaim his spot in the starting rotation. We will have to monitor his innings for the course of the season but hopefully he can be on our Opening Day roster and be a meaningful part of the team next year."

*Prefer veteran guy in back of rotation or young arm:

"It all depends on which guys are available and it has to be the right guy. I don't think just bringing an experienced pitcher just for the sake of his experience will make that much of a difference. But if it's the right experienced pitcher that will also feel will make us a better team, then that's certainly an attractive offer for us."
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:50 pm

FWIW, per mlbtraderumors Tim Dierkes says on twitter that MLB would view a sign and trade deal as collusion - avoiding the draft pk compensation.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:28 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Hermie,

I'm just curious what figure ($) did you use on Swisher I'm looking at the payroll here under IBI's payroll tab and including all of Mark Reynolds incentives which places the Tribe at $52 M adding Swisher's $11 M in 2013 and it looks like they are at $63 M, which gives them wiggle room to add a LHRP and a SP, IMO.

The Tribe could easily move a cpl pieces to offset the price tag and add talent to the org. What I have in mind...IF the Tribe traded CPerez to the Dodgers for Capuano, Gordon. The Tribe could also, flip a BP arm like Joe Smith or Albers for a LHRP.


I used $11M; however, I included the $3.5M we are sending to Cincy and the $2.75M buyout Hafner is getting.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:42 pm

@Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: Hanrahan trade is done. Players involved being informed by #RedSox and #Pirates. Don't know exact names yet.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:59 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:FWIW, per mlbtraderumors Tim Dierkes says on twitter that MLB would view a sign and trade deal as collusion - avoiding the draft pk compensation.

Good for MLB... They may not be able to do anything about it other than voice disapproval.. The rules committee could change the wording to create a poison pill for anyone attempting this tactic. If this kind of circumnavigation of the compensation is attempted and taken to the end of the equation, the players & their agents would be in favor of permitting this kind of transfer, as higher salaries, more player movement and less club control would eventuate, imho.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:06 pm

@alexspeier: #redsox announce deal is Hanrahan and IF Brock Holt for Pimentel, Sands, Melancon, DeJesus


I think a team like the Pirates need to make deals like these. They get some good value for Hanrahan. Not a crapload of upside but likely 3 players that will contribute to their rebuild. Sands could be a huge boom but also a huge bust, but he's now in a good place to put it together and Melancon could be a real gem for the Bucs. Not so much for them, but down the line at the deadline.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:17 pm

I really don't think MLB can do anything about sign and trades. Dierkes said MLB would not allow sign and trade deals, but according to my undstanding of the CBA a player can be traded before June 15th with written permission of the player. The player could simply have it written in and signed off during contract signing.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:21 pm

MLB Trade Rumors had their usual Wednesday afternoon chat.. with two interesting comments:

1:45: Comment From Waiver Shark : Any strong bounce back candidates next year, in your opinion?
1:46: Drew Stubbs if used properly. Still mashes LHP, steals a ton of bases, plays strong defense. Lots to like there. Would much rather give up a prospect for him that sign Scott Hairston for two years.

The comment about giving up a prospect rather than signing Scott Hairston says that Hairston would be a good fourth outfielder on a good team, but, not exactly who a team wants for their everyday lineup. The comment about using Stubbs correctly says that Stubbs may prove to be an effective player with one of _________________________ <=== fill in the blank with one of Tim Fedroff, Ezequiel Carrera or Michael Brantley, other as part of a useful and efficient outfield platoon or rotation. Is this what "using him properly" means?

1:50: Comment From Gson: Asdrubal/Marson to St Louis for Lance Lynn/Joe Kelly & the two Matts, Adams and Carpenter?
1:51:I think the Indians could get a little more. Love Lynn and Kelly (I assume this trade scenario is either/or, not both) and Carpenter's solid, but Adams doesn't do it for me. I see one impact piece in that trade for Cleveland.

Apparently, there is no love for Matt Adams.. Is there anything about the guy that says "bust"?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:33 pm

The Hanrahan trade seems like a good deal for the Pirates and the Red Sox get a now Closer, which means they will try to win the AL East this season. Interesting to me, the Red Sox use Jerry Sands and Ivan DeJesus as pieces in this trade after acq. them in the huge mega trade last season.

My question is: What could the Tribe get for 2 yrs of Chris Perez, who IMO, is the better closer of the two?

The Dodgers and Tigers were both reportedly in on Hanrahan and maybe Perez. It's been speculated the Tribe has talked with the Dodgers about both Chris Capuano and Dee Gordon. That would be a good starting point IMO, but I'd think the Tribe could get another piece out of the deal like Matt Magill, Joc Pererson, Chris Withrow or Alex Santana. OR the Tribe and Dodgers could make the deal bigger and include ACab. The Dodgers reportedly want to upgrade SS or 3b with flexibility to move Hanley Ramirez to either spot.

Here's a link for Fangraphs top 15 Dodgers prospects (2013)...
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... s-2012-13/

Here's another look at some of the Dodgers prospects...
http://www.truebluela.com/pages/2013-tr ... -prospects
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:52 pm

Here's what they had to say about Matt Adams on fan graphs...


#10 Matt Adams (1B)
Age PA HR SB AVG OBP SLG wOBA wRC+ Fld WAR
23 91 2 0 .244 .286 .384 .292 83 -1.1 -0.2
Opening Day Age: 25
2012 Level: AAA/MLB
Acquired: 2009 draft (23rd round)
Projected 2013 level: AAA/MLB

With the loss of Albert Pujols prior to the 2012 season, many fans thought Adams would get a significant opportunity to establish himself as the everyday first baseman in St. Louis but Allen Craig ended that line of thinking with an outstanding season. The rookie appeared in just 27 games and, while he had his moments, did not force the club’s hand into finding a roster spot for him.

After hitting more than 50 home runs during the past two seasons in the upper minors it’s clear that Adams has some big league value but his over-aggressive nature at the plate – witnessed by his 5.4% walk rate in triple-A – hampers his offensive value. I personally saw Adams deposit a hanging breaking ball about 420 feet for a home run at the big league level, and it looked like he hit it off the end of the bat.

The first baseman has a smooth swing when he’s not trying to do too much but he presses at times even though he doesn’t need to pull the ball or swing from the heels to hit for power. He can be described as “farm boy strong” rather than muscular so he may age poorly and will have to watch his conditioning. Now 24, Adams is looking at a return to triple-A for a second campaign and may need a trade if he hopes to play regularly in the majors any time soon.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:07 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Hanrahan trade seems like a good deal for the Pirates and the Red Sox get a now Closer, which means they will try to win the AL East this season. Interesting to me, the Red Sox use Jerry Sands and Ivan DeJesus as pieces in this trade after acq. them in the huge mega trade last season.

My question is: What could the Tribe get for 2 yrs of Chris Perez, who IMO, is the better closer of the two?

The Dodgers and Tigers were both reportedly in on Hanrahan and maybe Perez. It's been speculated the Tribe has talked with the Dodgers about both Chris Capuano and Dee Gordon. That would be a good starting point IMO, but I'd think the Tribe could get another piece out of the deal like Matt Magill, Joc Pererson, Chris Withrow or Alex Santana. OR the Tribe and Dodgers could make the deal bigger and include ACab. The Dodgers reportedly want to upgrade SS or 3b with flexibility to move Hanley Ramirez to either spot.

Here's a link for Fangraphs top 15 Dodgers prospects (2013)...
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... s-2012-13/

Here's another look at some of the Dodgers prospects...
http://www.truebluela.com/pages/2013-tr ... -prospects

What this potential deal has as its core is the answer to the question: Are the Indians in a win now mode or are the Indians in a build for now & into the future mode? From the Dodger's perspective, the match up with the Indians with Capuano as the primary 'piece' is exactly what they're looking for. The Dodgers can deal away an excess/highly valued player and fill a weakness in their lineup with one of the best closers in the AL in Chris Perez. The problem is, Capuano is signed for one year w/ a $7 MM commitment (includes buy out on mutual option for 2014). If the Indians are projecting this team forward, the inclusion of Capuano, doesn't mesh. Chad Billingsley does.. the prospects listed in your posting do..

Adding Droobs to the equation opens up the path in two directions, as well ( i.e. compete now or compete onward) So, which direction?.. Capuano and the list of prospects or All prospects including Z-Lee, Puig, Reed Santana, etc..?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:15 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:The Hanrahan trade seems like a good deal for the Pirates and the Red Sox get a now Closer, which means they will try to win the AL East this season. Interesting to me, the Red Sox use Jerry Sands and Ivan DeJesus as pieces in this trade after acq. them in the huge mega trade last season.

My question is: What could the Tribe get for 2 yrs of Chris Perez, who IMO, is the better closer of the two?

The Dodgers and Tigers were both reportedly in on Hanrahan and maybe Perez. It's been speculated the Tribe has talked with the Dodgers about both Chris Capuano and Dee Gordon. That would be a good starting point IMO, but I'd think the Tribe could get another piece out of the deal like Matt Magill, Joc Pererson, Chris Withrow or Alex Santana. OR the Tribe and Dodgers could make the deal bigger and include ACab. The Dodgers reportedly want to upgrade SS or 3b with flexibility to move Hanley Ramirez to either spot.

Here's a link for Fangraphs top 15 Dodgers prospects (2013)...
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... s-2012-13/

Here's another look at some of the Dodgers prospects...
http://www.truebluela.com/pages/2013-tr ... -prospects

What this potential deal has as its core is the answer to the question: Are the Indians in a win now mode or are the Indians in a build for now & into the future mode? From the Dodger's perspective, the match up with the Indians with Capuano as the primary 'piece' is exactly what they're looking for. The Dodgers can deal away an excess/highly valued player and fill a weakness in their lineup with one of the best closers in the AL in Chris Perez. The problem is, Capuano is signed for one year w/ a $7 MM commitment (includes buy out on mutual option for 2014). If the Indians are projecting this team forward, the inclusion of Capuano, doesn't mesh. Chad Billingsley does.. the prospects listed in your posting do..

Adding Droobs to the equation opens up the path in two directions, as well ( i.e. compete now or compete onward) So, which direction?.. Capuano and the list of prospects or All prospects including Z-Lee, Puig, Reed Santana, etc..?


Bullingsley also fits well onto the DL FWIW. His elbow has been as creaky as Shawn Marcum's in recent seasons. Also for as many times as I've seen Puig mentioned, I haven't once seen mention of his hearty salary that comes with him.

Also, not sure how willing they are to move him, but I'm all about Zach Lee. Not all there yet, just has the upside.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:20 pm

I doubt the Dodgers have ANY inclination to move Puig..but could possibly be interested in moving Billingsley.. While his creakiness issue has to scare away the weak.. healthy, he's a beast.. If the Indians are going to go with a pitcher with a creaky elbow..an upside guy like C-Bills would be the guy..medical check should be exhaustive..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:32 pm

I could see the Tribe doing both, adding pieces for now and pieces to develop into the future. Reading the comments I posted from nearly two weeks ago it seems CA was saying they are trying to win now and add pieces that are controllable into the future. Their focus being on SP and OF in the upper minors / major league ready.

If Capuano holds a mutual option, I think he'd be likely to opt out. Looking at how thin the pitching mkt is, he could be due for a nice raise.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:42 pm

Harang is in the same spot, but a $ 1 MM more... and he's awful...

Capuano will absolutely opt out (even though he doesn't have Boras as his agent..) A one year deal would be okay.. if the Indians were clearly contending.. but, not as the center piece in a trade of one of the best closers in the AL...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:05 pm

Agreed,

I've suggested Capuano a number of times not realizing he has mutual option and bc the Tribe and Dodgers have reportedly talked about both he and Gordon. It would definitely make the price tag to the Dodgers in a deal a bit higher. Here's what I'm thinking Capuano, Gordon and Lee. Puig would be interesting but also would tie up some much financial flexibility.

Call me crazy but, I'd ALMOST like to see the Tribe try to sign Michael Bourn too and deal both Perez and ACab for young controllable SP. They could back load the deal and try to land a vet SP like Brett Myers - who I'm hoping the Tribe snags for the 4/5th spot in the rotation.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:15 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I could see the Tribe doing both, adding pieces for now and pieces to develop into the future. Reading the comments I posted from nearly two weeks ago it seems CA was saying they are trying to win now and add pieces that are controllable into the future. Their focus being on SP and OF in the upper minors / major league ready.

If Capuano holds a mutual option, I think he'd be likely to opt out. Looking at how thin the pitching mkt is, he could be due for a nice raise.


Basically this. Recall Antonetti refer to it as "threading the needle" in terms of rebuilding while trying to contend. Not really sure just what the hell threading the needle means but I got the point he was making.

Dealing Choo and getting back the type of young starter they did was nothing short of badass on CA's part. Adding in a plus defensive OF with interesting skill set that can at least smack around lefties....and offers more than any one of Duncan, Cunningham, and Damon possibly can at this point makes it all the better. Not even mentioning Shaw as pen depth, and Albers as a valuable asset one way or another is just brilliant IMO.

Then to top it off with Choo's replacement like he did this is some kind of offseason for Antonetti.

You can argue that the team is better now, even if just a bit, with its OF. Brantley, Stubbs, Swisher & Carrera/Fedroff is better than Duncan/Cunningham/Damon, Brantley, Choo could ever hope to be at this point. The OF could potentially be set up for more than one season, since obviously they're all under team control for many more seasons. Better both for now, and potentially in the future.

The pen, while in need of a lefty has two more additions, one of which has something like 4 more seasons of team control with Shaw. COULD be talking about a pen of Shaw, Allen, Hagadone, Lee, and Pestano or maybe Trey Haley. No telling if that's better than Smith, Pestano, Perez, etc. but it is definitely talented.

Bauer will need a lot of help down the line, but he is a huge first step to rebuilding a system lacking impact starters. Guys that could easily settle into the middle of a rotation very soon, and eventually lead one. it's another reason I want to see a final shot at using Haley as a starter, although his control limits him a lot.

also forgot to mention Mike Aviles. Definitely a better option to start, platoon, or use off the bench than either Jason Donald or Brent Lillibridge could ever hope to be. He definitely offers a legit option against lefties, giving Chiz time off and Kipnis rest, as well as backing up shortstop. It's a damn solid pickup that goes under the radar.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:28 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Agreed,

I've suggested Capuano a number of times not realizing he has mutual option and bc the Tribe and Dodgers have reportedly talked about both he and Gordon. It would definitely make the price tag to the Dodgers in a deal a bit higher. Here's what I'm thinking Capuano, Gordon and Lee. Puig would be interesting but also would tie up some much financial flexibility.

Call me crazy but, I'd ALMOST like to see the Tribe try to sign Michael Bourn too and deal both Perez and ACab for young controllable SP. They could back load the deal and try to land a vet SP like Brett Myers - who I'm hoping the Tribe snags for the 4/5th spot in the rotation.


-The financial flexibility angle has some merit, I'll give you that.. but the guy is an impact hitter and tremendous athlete. He'd be the best OF prospect the Indians have had since Grady Sizemore was running into walls in Kinston.

-Bourn for the purpose of a flip / trade ?

-Droobs & Perez for the kind of ML ready guys that can play right now..

-Brett Myers doesn't really interest me all that much..the Indians have an abundance of #4/#5 type SP's..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:35 pm

The team could still use another qlty OF and a young guy like Tavares would be tremendous, IMO. The Tribe has to focus on pitching in any deal but if it comes to say making a trade like Lance Lynn and Oscar Tavares for ACab that would be a decent return. Something to keep in mind in this scenario would be the Tribe is trying to give themselves a number of options and adding another OF would give them options. Btw, the OF has been upgraded tremendously, Swisher is a better player than Choo and brings other intangibles to boot, Brantley is probably better suited for LF than CF although he was fine last yr and finally Stubbs adds a great defender with speed and pop, although he has some concerns he's better than any of the options they played in the OF last yr.

The bullpen depth is very intriguing with a number of options ready now and others moving qkly. I'm on the same boat with many that believe Trey Haley should get another go as a SP, personally I suspect that the groin injury was corrected and he should now begin to pitch more effectively, as it seemed to affect him mechanically. I'd rather have Haley as a 3 starter than a 7/8th inning arm. Just my thoughts but he'd be more valuable to the team as a SP and has huge upside IF he could get it all together.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:41 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote: Stubbs adds a great defender with speed and pop, although he has some concerns he's better than any of the options they played in the OF last yr..


Bull. Forget the strikeouts and the whining from Reds fans. Stubbs is no doubt better than anyone other than Brantley and Choo the Indians used in the OF last year. He's already the best defensive OF this team has had in years. Bat him 9th and leave him be. He'll give you 15 HR and 30 steals in the 9 hole.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:54 pm

Personally, I've always liked Bourn. He seemed to try to post some power numbers this past season - if you look at his numbers he kind of took himself out of his own element trying to swing more for the fences than get on base and do his job as a table setter. I'd suspect he wanted better offensive numbers going into FA, just my thoughts but having watched him over a number of yrs it was clear to me he was pressing a bit offensively.

Trading Perez and ACab should bring in at the very least 2 now SP and perhaps some positional talent as well with perhaps a few pieces that go to either AA or AAA anything else, less than AA talent would have to be high upside talent and only included as a sweetener of sorts.

Adding Myers would provide the Tribe with a potential veteran innings eater type based on his 2010-11 seasons with the Astros. It would also provide the Tribe flexibility to potentially move Masterson or Jimenez at a later point, while giving the team SP depth and buying the young arms some time to develop IF need be.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:07 pm

GoTribe,
I wasn't saying Stubbs is better than Choo and Brantley. If you read it closer, I went position to position. Id prefer Stubbs over Brantley in CF easily. I was saying he was better than any of the other (although I left that word out) options out there. I completely agree on Stubbs though he's a guy I think could easily hit .230 - .240 15+ hrs and steal 30+ bases, but he's better suited toward the bottom of the lineup. I guess I should have said other options here, bc I was referring to names like Cunningham, Duncan, Damon. As I said the OF was tremendously upgraded over last yr.

Here's what I meant...

RF Swisher > Choo
CF Stubbs > Brantley
LF Brantley > D, D, C
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby BrianM » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:48 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
also forgot to mention Mike Aviles. Definitely a better option to start, platoon, or use off the bench than either Jason Donald or Brent Lillibridge could ever hope to be. He definitely offers a legit option against lefties, giving Chiz time off and Kipnis rest, as well as backing up shortstop. It's a damn solid pickup that goes under the radar.


This move gets overshadowed, but vital to where we stand today. If the Jays would have hung onto him till the winter meetings, they may have been able to net more than Esmil Rogers considering the lack of FA SS's. Huge move by the Indians.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:03 pm

Agreed,
Getting Aviles really put the Tribe in the drivers seat in regard to a number of potential deals. The simple truth is Aviles could man just about any IF and OF spot (except C & P) in a pinch and he adds a qlty RH bat to the lineup or bench. Ideally, if the Tribe moves ACab they could reasonably expect Aviles to take over SS without hesitation.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:26 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Agreed,
Getting Aviles really put the Tribe in the drivers seat in regard to a number of potential deals. The simple truth is Aviles could man just about any IF and OF spot (except C & P) in a pinch and he adds a qlty RH bat to the lineup or bench. Ideally, if the Tribe moves ACab they could reasonably expect Aviles to take over SS without hesitation.

Aviles would certinainly down grade the position from Asdrubal, so, whoever the Indians would acquire would have to be a scaled or magnitude improvement at that spot over what Droobs is at SS.. This is where it could get tricky..

Example: The Indians send Asdrubal and Lou Marson to the Cardinals. The guy(s) the Indians acquire from St Louis = Lance Lynn/Joe Kelly, Matt Adams & Matt Carpenter. In this example, the Indians acquire with either Kelly or Lynn a MOR SP that should be able to give the Indians a 180 - 200 IP, an ERA around 4, K:BB 3:1 and WHIP 1.35. When you look at the Indian he would be replacing, Lynn is a vast improvement. The same kind of comparison can be made with Matt Carpenter, who, like Aviles, can and has played every corner spot and even a little MI. Carpenter projects to a triple slash line of .280/.360 /.440 or very Swish-uh-liscious!! Matt Adams is an unknown and may make early Pronk numbers pale in comparison or turn into Matt LaPorta.. The first two guys in this trade make the most sense. Adams is the joker/wildcard that can take this 'need' fulfillment trade and turn it into a blockbuster/franchise foundation builder. The safe move would be both Kelly and Lynn, but, that seems unlikely unless the Indians were to include Justin Masterson.

The Indians would be thrilled with this three for two..both teams would have two productive ML'ers who fit/fill needs in their ballclub. The Indians middle of the rotation and corner spots would be much stronger. The Indians up the middle parts of the team would be weaker, by comparison. With this kind of trade, the Indians would have a much higher likelihood of scoring more runs and reducing the number of runs scored. This would be a very good trade for both clubs..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:36 am

FWIW

@CaminoTribe: Heard #Indians are seriously targeting starting pitching and have recently had dialogue with a few. A name or two that might "surprise" fans


Lohse would be the only one that may "surprise". At least potentially in a good way.

Quite a few left that would surprise fans in a negative way. Maybe not depending on who you ask. For some reason Carlos Zambrano and Daisuke Matsuzaka stick out as the types of FA starters on the Indians radar rather than Lohse, Marcum, Myers, or Saunders.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:48 pm

G'Son,
Obviously, losing ACab would be a step back and frankly it's looking increasingly less likely they move ACab this offseason but I still wouldn't rule it out. It seems like Chris Perez is the most probable to go at this point, and it could be a salary based move which brings back controllable league minimum high upside pieces, which both fills needs (SP) and frees up salary to utilize elsewhere.

We have discussed a number of options, right now I'd say it's probably a 70% probability that Perez gets moved, while I'd guess it's a 50% probability that ACab gets moved. It's really telling bc at the outset of the off season I felt ACab and Perez would definitely be moved this offseason. The simple truth is the Tribe made an excellent deal moving Choo and acquiring Trevor Bauer, Stubbs, Shaw and Albers. The Choo / Bauer deal has really placed the Tribe in a nice position, they really don't have to trade ACab and / or Perez but probably should at some point when the return is right.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:57 pm

Lohse, would certainly surprise fans. I like Lohse's pitch ability he certainly doesn't light up the radar gun (low 90's) but that really doesn't matter. IF the Tribe could land a cpl young arms too via trade it would potentially buy them some time to develop and put a solid 2/3 starter into the rotation. I'd say Lohse's ERA will jump to the mid 3's if he moves over to the AL.

Could some of the surprising names actually be potential trade candidates?
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