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MLB Hot Stove

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:02 pm

ironmike wrote:Still some great players available including; Swisher, Jackson, Michael Bourn and Trumbo just to name a few.

IF the Indians want to get serious and WIN they still need to add two impact players / bats and a better than average starting pitcher. If they do, lots of good things could happen, including getting the fans back on their side.

Swisher, Trumbo and Jackson, those are John Hart kinda guys.

Go all out to get all three of them, whatever it takes.


I don't see how any of those 3 are John Hart kind of guys. Swisher is a lot like Brian Giles who Hart traded for a lefty reliever. Jackson is way too young, Hart prefered signing older veteran starting pitcher like Dennis Martinez and Orel Hershiser (not that those were bad signing obviously).

And Trumbo? Maybe he is a Hart guy but personally don't tihnk he's worth what the Angels will ask. Love the power but he posted a .291 OBP in 2011 and only a .317 this year. Plus he was TERRIBLE in the 2nd half. He posted a .965 OPS in the 1st half of the year and a .630 OPS in the 2nd half.

How bad was Trumbo in the 2nd half exactly? Here's his numbers:

67 games, 273 PA, 256 AB, 34 runs, 4 doubles, 10 HRs, 38 RBI, 0 SB, 3 CS, 14 BB, 88 K, .227 BA, .271 OBP, .359 SLG, .630 OPS, 74 sOPS+


hmm, looks an awful lot like a certain Tribe OF/1B/DH from last year....

81 games, 264 PA, 232 AB, 29 runs, 10 doubles, 11 HRs, 31 RBI, 1 SB, 2 CS, 28 BB, 59 K, .203 BA, .288 OBP, .388 SLG, .676 OPS, 90 OPS+

Those of course being Shelley Duncan's numbers from this past season.


Not saying Duncan is better than Trumbo (he is not) as I am only looking at his 2nd half, but when you look at Trumbo's plate discipline in the 2011 and the 2nd half of 2012....I see no reason to think he'll ever duplicate his 1st half of 2012. I'd definitely take him from the A's, but not for anything that valuable. Maybe David Huff and a non-top 10 spec. Power is nice but plate discipline is terrible.

Trumbo's K-rate in the 2nd half of the season was over 34%...that's higher than both Mark Reynolds and Drew Stubbs!

And since ironmike you like this odd K-BB stat....Trumbo's was an absolutely pathetic 6.3 in the 2nd half! That's almost three times as bad as Reynold's. Hell, even Trumbo's overall K-BB ratio this past season was nearly twice as bad as Reynolds' (4.25 to 2.18)...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:34 pm

@Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Phillies intensifying pursuit of Cody Ross. Other teams also being more aggressive. #Mariners among those that have shown interest


Beginning to think trades are going to be the way to go. Indians never gonna have a real shot at anyone otherwise.

And I'm not talking about these overly convoluted deals that usually don't even make sense.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby BrianM » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:32 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
@Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Phillies intensifying pursuit of Cody Ross. Other teams also being more aggressive. #Mariners among those that have shown interest


Beginning to think trades are going to be the way to go. Indians never gonna have a real shot at anyone otherwise.

And I'm not talking about these overly convoluted deals that usually don't even make sense.


I personally believe that so few teams have been in on Swisher because they know they can't top our offer. The other teams interested in Swisher have really only been linked to them through speculation. I have been following the hot stove closely, and while teams still have plenty of time to make offers, I think the Indians remain in the lead for Swish. I know he will probably visiting Texas and Seattle along with Cleveland, but within all these rumors, those teams have never come off as teams that are willing to go big for Swisher. I still like our chances.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:55 pm

G'Son,

I don't think that trades going down. Seems awful slanted toward the Angels. There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than what we are hearing. Usually these rumors surface out of some truth. It's probably simple as the Tribe calling on the availability of Trumbo and Bourjos. The Tribe would be gaining 4 yrs of combined service time in that deal, but I'd think the Tribe would give up both guys in a deal without trying to acq. some SP in return.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:26 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:G'Son,

I don't think that trades going down. Seems awful slanted toward the Angels. There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than what we are hearing. Usually these rumors surface out of some truth. It's probably simple as the Tribe calling on the availability of Trumbo and Bourjos. The Tribe would be gaining 4 yrs of combined service time in that deal, but I'd think the Tribe would give up both guys in a deal without trying to acq. some SP in return.


Homer.. I'll maintain that if the Indians are NOT getting an SP in return, keep shopping..There is a caveat, the return from trading both Asdrubal and Perez can be used to acquire an SP or more... Only if the Indians are ready to own their fate for 2013 being a year when they don't feel they can compete would it make sense to give up both guys in a deal without trying to acquire some SP in return. Under those circumstances, it might be wiser to look at players like Kaleb Cowart Corey Kalhoun and Austin Romine, as part of the return...it might be wiser to look at them, anyway..

I doubt the Indians are ready to make any such admission at this time...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

Go Tribe,

The Tribes not done wheeling and dealing. I'm sure we'll see a few more deals to get pitching and that's what it may take to get the RF. There's still a number of guys who could be had for the right price. If the Tribe does miss out on Ross, and Swisher then Hairston seems to be the next option in line. If the Phillies sign Ross which they might, Domonic Brown could be available...it might just take a bullpen arm to land him.

Alphonso Soriano could help in LF. Gerardo Parra any of the OF spots and / or Jason Kubel LF / RF might be options as well. Ryan Sweeney can play any of the OF spots and could be had on a minor league deal with incentives - he'd be a decent 4th OF and maybe a platoon partner for someone like Hairston. Chris Young and Coco Crisp could probably be had as well. I think Cuban import Dariel Alvarez could be a dark horse candidate but from what I've read he could use a little seasoning in the minors.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:07 pm

.... only way the Indians can reasonably get one of these free agents is to overpay, and that's exactly what the organization...


Agree without equivocation.. No Free Agents.. they're not free, the agents suck and the returns are almost always of the diminishing variety or will be...The trade market & draft are the only real means the Indians can use effectively to build a team. Once the team is built, then, and only then can FA's be considered a means to fill a glaring weakness.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:14 pm

Here's a look at the big 7 player trade that's supposed to go down between the Blue Jays and Mets.

Jays receive...

RA Dickey - RHSP
Josh Thole - C
Jeurys Familia - RHSP...OR... Jesus Flores - 3b

Mets receive...

Travis d'Arnaud - C
John Buck - C
Anthony Gose - OF
Noah Syndergaard - RHSP

That's a pretty solid haul for Dickey IMO. Syndergaard has FOR potential and is a high upside arm.

Btw, these are the names I've heard - might not be the deal the eventually gets done, probably in the next day or two...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:32 pm

The Angels are reportedly talking to the Tigers about Rick Porcello.

The Angels are also reportedly talking to the Yankees about Vernon Wells. I think it's safe to assume the Angels would have to eat a tremendous amount of the contract themselves.

There are some rumors the Tribe and Angels are talking a various number of trades. I think it's safe to say they have had some conversations but these trade suggestions I've seen in various places are so lop-sided it's not worth time.

Morales for Chris Perez? The only way I think that happens is if the Angels add Bourjos to the trade or it becomes something like Morales for Joe Smith or Matt Albers otherwise I just don't see it happening.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:40 pm

I wouldn't do Perez for Morales straight up, but if they throw in a solid prospect, I'd probably make the deal.

Swisher is still the key to the rest of the offseason. If he signs, I don't think we'll see Asdrubal being traded unless we get wowed, if Swisher signs elsewhere, I think we almost have to trade Asdrubal.

It's funny how one trade can affect the confidence in this offseason.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:28 am

JP,

I think they should move ACab IF they get the right offer regardless of what Swisher does. BUT if he (Swisher) goes elsewhere I completely agree they should look to move ACab this offseason. I think the Tribe should move aggressively. I love the BP depth the team has built with that they have a number of options like trying to trade a piece like Perez or Pestano for a SP or young controllable bat. Speaking of which maybe they could pull off Pestano for Bourjos - although I'm not certain I'd do that...

I really like Bryan Shaw there's some talk he's a potential closer in the making seems like the Tribe has a number of these back of the bullpen type arms in the system Pestano, Allen, Armstrong, Haley, Lee, oh and btw, Blake Wood too.

I could see the Tribe trying to use more of this surplus to fill holes ie: Esmil Rogers. Could be the way the Tribe eventually fills the RF, LHRP and maybe a SP slot too. Depth gives the Tribe options and flexibility to make a number of moves.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:44 am

Personally, I'd really have to be blown away to trade Pestano, and I'd certainly want more than Bourjos. I would also keep Shaw, really like what I've read about him. But you're right that we have alot of depth there that can be used.

Droobs is the prize though. He probably holds the most trade value on our entire roster (maybe Santana would be a bit more coveted), so that should be used. I'm just a little scared that if you trade away Choo, Cabrera and not sign Swisher, the lineup becomes very thin, even if it means a strong starting staff.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Edible14 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:34 am

Indians are supposedly talking on Morales. I'm not sure why the Angels are intent to trade him, though. Seems like he still slots in nicely at DH/LF/1B in an everyday role. Unless they're planning on starting Bourjos or Wells in LF, with Trumbo at DH. What I'd love to see is the Tigers trade Porcello for Vernon Wells, just because it would warm my heart to see Detroit spending so much on the Angels' leftover outfielders.

That being said, I think we're ignoring the more obvious solution, which would just be to deal with Detroit directly. They have excess starters, we have excess bullpen arms. Of course you hate dealing within the division, especially when you're both making each other stronger. Porcello for Perez would be a bad move. Porcello for Smith and maybe Albers would work for me. Both are in their walk years if I remember correctly, and there's a lot of depth behind them ready to replace. Not sure if Detroit would love that deal.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:28 am

FWIW, Morales has played RF. I think their interest in Morales is legit but I just don't see the a Tribe landing Morales without having to give up an arm like Bryan Shaw. I'd hate to do that even with the depth they have bc he's controllable for 5 more yrs and has Closer potential. I'd have to think the Tribe would try to limit any potential deal to Joe Smith or Matt Albers. Maybe the Tribe can pull something off like Morales and Bourjos for Chris Perez.

The Tribe could look to go another route in a trade with the Angels. Something like Kendrys Morales, Kole Calhoun, Nick Maronde for Chris Perez. Morales offers a SH power bat he has played RF but I'm not sure you risk injury with Morales by playing him in the OF or if he would even consider it but he could man some 1b and DH. Furthermore, I'm not sure Morales has the wheels to play OF anymore.

The Dodgers are another team I think we could see the Tribe work out a deal. There's a number of options but Tribe has spoken to the Dodgers about at least 3 players: Dee Gordon, Chris Capuano and Aaron Harang. Harang, 35 (in May) - RHSP has 1 yr left on his current deal for $7 M and an option for $7 M with a $2 M buyout. Capuano, 34 - LHSP has a 1 yr deal $6 M with an option for $6 M plus a $1 M option. Capuano has posted more innings, strikeouts and less walks than Harang and is slightly younger and cheaper while both are controllable over potentially 2 yrs. Obviously, the Tribe would likely have more interest in Capuano because of those factors and he's a LHSP to boot.

The Dodgers reportedly asked for Joel Hanrahan for Chris Capuano and the Pirates reportedly backed away from the deal. The Tribe could try to get creative and offer Chris Perez and Tony Wolters for Dee Gordon, Matt Magill (OR...Zach Lee) and Chris Capuano. Btw, the Dodgers are reportedly looking at moving Nick Punto whom the Tribe could have interest in IF they move ACab. ACab could become an option in a deal with the Dodgers as they seek to add a SS or 3b.
Last edited by homerawayfromhome on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby ironmike » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:38 am

Hermie wrote, and since ironmike you like this odd K-BB stat....Trumbo's was an absolutely pathetic 6.3 in the 2nd half! That's almost three times as bad as Reynold's. Hell, even Trumbo's overall K-BB ratio this past season was nearly twice as bad as Reynolds' (4.25 to 2.18)...

Hermie you are the ODD one. A post like you made just proves the low level BB IQ you have, but you are an outstanding member of the spread sheet geek patrol. A lot can be learned from just looking at those three key stats, runs scored, BB-K ratio. Check out Michael Brantley's minor league career and he's doing rather well as an Indian, probably our best all-around player we have. Expect big things from his this year provided he stays healthy, he has the potential to be an All-Star. If the Indians were smart they would sign him long term and lock him up.

Learned this "snap shot" observation of a baseball player from Al Lopez more than likely the greatest manager the Indians ever had. When a player hits for a high average, power, runs the bases a poor BB-K ratio can be okay as long as they have the ability to score runs and do. These tangibles and power numbers can make up for that, not when a guy hits .213.

Check out the lifetime stats regarding runs scored and BB-K for these ex-Cleveland Indians: Al Rosen, Toby Harrah, Rocky Colavito, Kenny Lofton, Jim Thome, Robbie Alomar, Mike Hargrove, Albert Belle, and Buddy Bell just to name a few. Examine their BB-K ratio and runs scored. That is a real good mix of old and one decade removed. Then tell me Mark Reynolds is a good player, huge mistake by Antonetti. The only reason we had to sign a guy like this is because of our failed farm system. No other team wants him. Plus, duck when Antonetti says K's don't matter, we scored lots of runs before with K's and less with runs with less K's. He's desperate and in a corner plus he learned to generate excuses that distant reality from the silver tongues Shapiro who is bottom of the barrel when it comes to baseball evaluators.

Back to Trumbo, his BB-K ratio is pathetic and runs scored numbers aren't great, but he did hit .268 with 32 home runs and 95 RBI which translate to acceptable, not a great player, but he's young and had two decent power years back to back in a great line up.

As mentioned in a later post regarding Stubbs, if he gets back to his 2010 year then his poor BB-K plays. Stubbs can be special becasue he's athletic, which makes it worth taking a chance on him. Keep in mind he might not ever reach his potential because of the K-BB flaw he currently has. If Stubss would K once or twice less per week, with one more walk per week and the Reds wanted him to bunt more for base hits, but he resisted all of their suggestions per Walt Jocketty. His stubborness is the only reason the Indians were able to get him. Now Reynolds, he's been in a steady decline the past 3 years and has been moved by 3 different teams. Bad addition.

Another example, look at the example of Adam Dunn in 2011 vs 2012, tons of K's but look at how his overall production played out. A team can accept high K's numbers when the player produces. Dunn scored 87 runs last year compared to 36 in 2011 and hit 41 HRs last year with 96 RBI's stiking out 222 times. If Reynolds hits .200 for us with 40 HRS and 100 RBI's in this day and age it is considered acceptable, doubt he does that with the Indians, by August you will be tired of his act.

Get three impact players who have great runs scoring abilities and a solid K-BB ratio and add them to the Indians present line up and see how quickly we would contend even with our lousy pitching. Until we do, expect mediocrity or less from the Cleveland Indians.

Check out Nick Swishers stats, who Iron Mike proposed here on this forum prior to the Indians started their dance for him trying to trade Hafner and other players to the Yankees after the 2011 season. He's scored 95 or more runs three times since 2006 and has walked 95 times or more in three season. Here is a guy with average speed, but his ability to walk gets him on base and he scores runs. He's a guy the Indians REALLY need, getting him will be difficult for the Indians in the position they are in as a team and their outlook for the next few years.
Last edited by ironmike on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:54 am

Trumbo put up all around great numbers? He had a .808 OPS with bad defense and horrible plate discipline. That's not great. Obviously he has some value, but I really don't see how he's that much better than Reynolds.

And you're just talking in circles Mike. Hermie was right to call you out on that K:BB ratio. You want guys that don't strike out and walk a fair amount, which is fine, but because Trumbo hits for power it's okay for him to hack away and yet Reynolds is a bad addition while he hits for just as much power and walks alot more.

Then again you are an outstanding member of the fire Shapiro and hire stubborn baseball people patrol. The type of guys that feel in their gut that player X will be great with the game on the line and ignore K:BB ratio altogether. That's who you'd want in control of the Indians.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby daingean » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:18 am

There's a common thing with IronMike.....the FO sucks.....the owner sucks....so if that's the case......Reynolds sucked because the FO signed him.....he rails on K-BB ratio but Reynolds' K-BB ratio is not bad 2-1 because he walks a lot....Trumbo on the other hand is someone he knows the FO cannot sign/acquire thus he's a better player....
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby ironmike » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:27 am

Daingean, facts are facts, sooner or later reality has to take over the situation and it finally did. It's all about results or the lack of them.

Stubbs has potential, Reynold's is a dog, let's see if they can get Swisher which would be a step in the right direction. Question, would you trade CC Sabathia at 21 years old for a minor league SS? Don't be surprised is Bauer has issues.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:32 am

if the Indians are going to focus in on Los Angeles as the team(s) to make a trade with, then it should be the Dodgers or, it should be the Angels.. or..

The Angels offer some very interesting position players (Cole Kalhoun, Kaleb Cowart, Austin Romine), but not much in the way of pitching, both starters and relievers. In fact, the Angels would be a prime candidate for a trade that sends pitching to them for position players. The position players that could be part of a deal include Kendrys Morales, who, imho, would be an absolute steal if he could be acquired along with the three listed above. The Angels absolutely have a stack and packed lineup. They may not need anything else, but, they appear to be ready to deal for a MOR SP..

The Dodgers offer a ready replacement for SS in Dee Gordon who some believe he may be a bit immature. Having a manager like Tito, can go a long way to having that problem fixed. The Dodgers also have a few other more than interesting players in Yasiel Puig, Joc Pederson & the Alex's (Castellanos & Santana) as young position players. The Dodgers have a couple of high upside starting pitchers and have a need to make a trade for a NOW solution to their infield problems. With the Dodgers depth of veteran SP's to trade, they could be a very good fit for the Indians, perhaps better than the Angels..

So, if you had a choice, which of the LA Franchise players would you prefer? Which group to you prefer? The Angels: Kendrys Morales, Cole Kalhoun, Kaleb Cowart Austin Romine or, the Dodgers: Chris Capuano, Aaron Harang (blech), Onelki Garcia Dee Gordon, Yasiel Puig, Joc Pederson, Alex Castellanos, Alex Santana, Zack Lee and Matt MaGill

Why not look at making trades with both clubs? or..

Angels get Justin Masterson and Joe Smith for Kendrys Morales, Cole Kalhoun, Kaleb Cowart and Austin Romine
Dodgers get Asdrubal Cabrera and Vinnie Pestano for Dee Gordon, Zack Lee, Yasiel Puig, & the Alex's Santana & Castellanos
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:47 am

ironmike wrote:Check out Nick Swishers stats, who Iron Mike proposed here on this forum prior to the Indians started their dance for him trying to trade Hafner and other players to the Yankees after the 2011 season. He's scored 95 or more runs three times since 2006 and has walked 95 times or more in three season. Here is a guy with average speed, but his ability to walk gets him on base and he scores runs. He's a guy the Indians REALLY need, getting him will be difficult for the Indians in the position they are in as a team and their outlook for the next few years.


I'm gonna ignore the rest since it's a bunch of gibberish.

On Swisher, hey that's cool that you wanted Swisher back in 2011...that means you started wanting him only 2-3 years after many of us. :cool

I know personally I wanted him when he before he was dealt to the White Sox...and still wanted him when the Yanks were talking about getting him (and did). Know I wasn't alone in either of those either.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:36 pm

FWIW Hoynes reporting that Nick Swisher is set to visit with Cleveland at Progressive Field on Tuesday or Wednesday this week.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:46 pm

Put my name on the list of not wanting Swisher... not before he went to the Yankees, the CWSox or where ever he's going to end up next. At 4 or 5 years and $ 16 - $ 18 MM/year, he's JUST NOT WORTH IT. Hopefully, Swisher's visit will be cancelled because he signs with the Rangers or anyone else..

-BTW...If $ 16 MM is available.. FIND A STARTING PITCHER or two..

-Make a trade that uses these 'funds' to maximize the quality of the pitcher being acquired..

As far as RustyMike and his half baked comments, he's completely off into his own little world of blame the front office, go get Andrew McCutchen, score 850 runs, Mark Reynolds is a waste but Drew Stubbs isn't because they're different (I give up on this one) & while you're at it, now, go get Nick Swisher.. Claim spreadsheet "geekiness" now has infected Hermie, and, Mr Dolan needs to be replaced.. RME's..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:58 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Put my name on the list of not wanting Swisher... not before he went to the Yankees, the CWSox or where ever he's going to end up next. At 4 or 5 years and $ 16 - $ 18 MM/year, he's JUST NOT WORTH IT. Hopefully, Swisher's visit will be cancelled because he signs with the Rangers or anyone else..

-BTW...If $ 16 MM is available.. FIND A STARTING PITCHER or two..

-Make a trade that uses these 'funds' to maximize the quality of the pitcher being acquired


I'm kind of in this boat too. Not that I'm against Swisher at all, cause I'm not as he can potentially take over at first base in the later seasons of his contract etc.

We'll see what happens. I kind of hope the Indians make a move for another bat quickly rather than wait on Swisher to make a choice, cause I do not believe it will be Cleveland.

If someone like Morales could be had for basically nothing (which he wont) then get him. I do not want to surrender anything of value in order to bring him in due to him being a one and done deal.

Similar to Chris Capuano, (spare me on Aaron Harang) I cant see the Indians giving up a good asset unless they had more coming back, like an OF or another young starter. If the Indians are willing to take on more salary in return then perhaps they can swing a deal in which they don't give up nearly as much as it usually would take to net a good prospect as well.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:30 pm

(028 said)...Similar to Chris Capuano, (spare me on Aaron Harang) I cant see the Indians giving up a good asset unless they had more coming back, like an OF or another young starter. If the Indians are willing to take on more salary in return then perhaps they can swing a deal in which they don't give up nearly as much as it usually would take to net a good prospect as well....


So, it appears you prefer a deal with the Dodgers over the Angels, but, aren't necessarily married to either franchise. What you are saying is that in addition to any veteran (like Capuano or Morales) use the funds that would have been earmarked for the acquisition of Swisher to improve the return from one of the LA Franchises..

+1 on that..

I would add: if the target is Kendrys Morales, nothing more than a bp arm makes any sense unless it's a three way deal that includes a SP prospect . If it's the Dodgers.. they have everything the Indians want, need and desire. It doesn't hurt that the Dodgers don't care how much it costs, as well..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby BrianM » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:38 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I really like Bryan Shaw there's some talk he's a potential closer in the making seems like the Tribe has a number of these back of the bullpen type arms in the system Pestano, Allen, Armstrong, Haley, Lee, oh and btw, Blake Wood too.


I'm still trying to figure out why the DBack's gave this guy up. I would have been happy if we only got Bauer in that deal. I think we win the deal by getting Bauer and Stubbs. Getting Bauer, Stubbs, and Albers seems like us squeaking out the very last bit of icing to put on the cake. Getting Shaw on top of it all? Like seriously, what just happened? I'm not worried about fixing holes through FA. Good bullpen arms are hard to find, and we have ammo up the Whazoo to pick up pieces like Morales or Capuano to help us compete. I think we should seriously put Pestano's name out there now and see what he could bring in. Oakland and Seattle could be great fits for both him and ACab, and they have what we want.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:54 pm

BrianM wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:I really like Bryan Shaw there's some talk he's a potential closer in the making seems like the Tribe has a number of these back of the bullpen type arms in the system Pestano, Allen, Armstrong, Haley, Lee, oh and btw, Blake Wood too.


I'm still trying to figure out why the DBack's gave this guy up. I would have been happy if we only got Bauer in that deal. I think we win the deal by getting Bauer and Stubbs. Getting Bauer, Stubbs, and Albers seems like us squeaking out the very last bit of icing to put on the cake. Getting Shaw on top of it all? Like seriously, what just happened? I'm not worried about fixing holes through FA. Good bullpen arms are hard to find, and we have ammo up the Whazoo to pick up pieces like Morales or Capuano to help us compete. I think we should seriously put Pestano's name out there now and see what he could bring in. Oakland and Seattle could be great fits for both him and ACab, and they have what we want.

Getting Stubbs + two good relievers, if you include the control over Stubbs & Shaw, for one yr of Choo would have been decent. But to add a top ten spec who is close to the majors borders on great.

I'd disagree with those who don't want Swisher. He'd be a great add & would cost only money. If we can't afford him we won't sign him. I'd like to sign Jackson just as much, maybe more. Lots of ifs but the rotation could be hugely improved over last yr with Jackson & bounce back yrs from Masty & Carrasco.

By the end of his contract '13 #1 pick Sean Manaea should be ready to step in. :razz
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:12 pm

Rocky,

I don't think Manaea will be on the board at 5. There's at least 3 quick moving SP prospects Appel, Stanek and Manaea. I'd guess all three are picked but there are some interesting prospects who could find themselves being picked in the top 5. The Twins are one pk before the Tribe and have put an emphasis on adding pitching, one of the reasons I think all three could be gone.

That being said I'd expect the Tribe to try to acq. some arms who are near ready still and put an emphasis on arms in the draft, bc of the lack upper tier prospects in the system.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:29 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Rocky,

I don't think Manaea will be on the board at 5. There's at least 3 quick moving SP prospects Appel, Stanek and Manaea. I'd guess all three are picked but there are some interesting prospects who could find themselves being picked in the top 5. The Twins are one pk before the Tribe and have put an emphasis on adding pitching, one of the reasons I think all three could be gone.

That being said I'd expect the Tribe to try to acq. some arms who are near ready still and put an emphasis on arms in the draft, bc of the lack upper tier prospects in the system.


Yes.. I seriously doubt you'll see the Indians try to "sell" another Naquin pick or the "strategy" around the selection. It's a guarantee of mediocrity or of failing. The best player available is the only long term approach to drafting in the June first entry draft. It's tried and true, proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The Indians may have missed on Lucas Giolito, they won't miss on the next one, who could be Sean Manea or Kohl Stewart or even Clint Hollon. While the draft is still a solid 7 months away, these three guys could be there for the Indians when they select. BTW, imho, the Twins will probably select Ryne Stanek over anyone of these three (in any order) Clint Frazier, Mark Appell and Austin Meadows all going ahead of the Twins' Stanek pick. I CERTAINLY HOPE THE INDIANS STAY AWAY FROM Austin Wilson and Kris Bryant, even though they profile as lower cost 'position specific / need" selection...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:36 pm

If I remember correctly the Tribe would lose their second rd pk if they signed Swisher bc the first rounder is protected. I wouldn't like that but you just never know with draft pks anyways but it would definitely put a dent in the draft pool money. I guess the consolation prize would be the fact the Tribe... 1. Landed a FA the caliber of Swisher. 2. They do have an additional pk courtesy of the competitive balance lottery.

Put me in the category of people who think the Tribe should try to sign Swisher. Actually I'd try to land both Swisher and Ross and then look to move ACab for pitching.

Mlbtraderumors.com is reporting the Padres are working toward a 3 yr deal with Edwin Jackson. Time for the Tribe to swoop in and try to land Jackson if they are serious about Jackson. Jackson could land 3 yrs / $39 M or more after the Sanchez signing.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:51 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:If I remember correctly the Tribe would lose their second rd pk if they signed Swisher bc the first rounder is protected. I wouldn't like that but you just never know with draft pks anyways but it would definitely put a dent in the draft pool money. I guess the consolation prize would be the fact the Tribe... 1. Landed a FA the caliber of Swisher. 2. They do have an additional pk courtesy of the competitive balance lottery.

Put me in the category of people who think the Tribe should try to sign Swisher. Actually I'd try to land both Swisher and Ross and then look to move ACab for pitching.

Mlbtraderumors.com is reporting the Padres are working toward a 3 yr deal with Edwin Jackson. Time for the Tribe to swoop in and try to land Jackson if they are serious about Jackson. Jackson could land 3 yrs / $39 M or more after the Sanchez signing.


I honestly believe it's about the years with Jackson. Yes in the end money talks, but this guy has been bounced around like a rubber ball for his whole career. Texas reportedly is interested on a shorter term deal, and SD is offering apparently 3. If Cleveland or say Seattle (just throwing a team out there) offer up 4...I bet it's too hard for him to pass up unless the money per year is below other offers. (ex Victorino)

Shawn Marcum would be an ok fallback, and I still like Carlos Villanueva on a 2 year stretch but not sure the Indians look towards him. Could see Villanueva land with the Cubbies after they missed out on Sanchez.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:07 pm

Agreed I think 4 yrs $52 M would possibly land Jackson. I'd about try to land him before Swisher and I'd throw out an aggressive offer on Ross too, then offer a serious offer for Swisher. Btw, I'm not a huge proponent of FA for the Tribe but I think they have to go outside the org. to get the talent they need. IF they could sign a cpl of these guys it puts less stress to move others and it would increase the likelihood they move others when they get the deal the want, not settling for less than max value.

I'm not knocked ov by Marcum he's a soft tossing SP who had some serious injury concerns last yr. He's a guy who has had TJ surgery in the past and his creeky elbow limited him to only 21 starts. A guy I think flying under the radar is Brett Myers who might be had for $5/6 M and some incentives. Villanueva is an option and might be able to land a 2 yr deal with some incentives another decent arm I think the Tribe could land for value.

Jackson at this point is the best SP option on the mkt and the Tribe should come in aggressively for him maybe doing something a bit unusual and offering 4 yrs with a big signing bonus. At this point the Tribe has to consider moving from Swisher, maybe that's what happens this wk Swisher pks his team and Ross is option 2. I still think the Tribe could make an aggressive offer on Michael Bourn too, although I think Boras could steer him clear of a 'developmental franchise' like the Indians.

There's a ton of options the Tribe could go with at this point I'm looking forward to what could get resolved in the coming week. Never know Tribe might always pullout another blockbuster trade - this time it might even be news worthy on ESPN. Of course that might mean its a major mkt team involved in the trade.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:10 pm

The acquisition of EdWin Jackson makes all the sense in the world at the dollar values stated. Three years or four years should be okay as well. Wouldn't hurt to offer.. It never hurts to have a guy like Jackson taking the hill with the pill 30 to 32 times a season.

As far as Swisher / Ross / Bourn / Hairston et al go, No thanks to ALL OF THEM.... Swisher is using the Indians to drive his price tag up to within 80 % of his original request of 5 years, $ 100 MM... He's just not worth that much. Sorry, Ross is bit better than Brantley Power-wise, a bit worse than Choo average-wise.. and unremarkable all the wise.. Bourn is a Boras Client.. He's not even worth making a call about & for Hairston, see the Ross evaluation.. In other words, none of these guys would be the impact bats their salaries would demand.

Move on...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:21 pm

The draft & trade market remains the best means to acquire the kind of players the Indians need to compete in 2013 and beyond. The two trades suggested with the Los Angeles Franchises have a new interesting twist that I've uncovered.. From an article written by Ken Rosenthal (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/los- ... les-121512). So, add Vernon Wells and three fourths of his salary to the Angels trade suggestion and the Indians get:

RH Vernon Well LF/DH (two years, $ 5 MM/year)
SH Kendrys Morales 1B/DH (one year $ 4 MM)
Three prospects Cole Calhoun (ml ready) Kaleb Cowart, & Austin Romine.

The Indians have to surrender Justin Masterson and Joe Smith... This trade goes counter to my previous arguments about needing pitching, however, in conjunction with the Dodger's trade, this could resolve most, if not all of the Indians needs going into 2013 and beyond.. One thing it certainly does, it commits the Indians for one or two years of higher priced players, not five or six years...which is NUTS !!
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:11 pm

Ross avg. 20+ hrs per season overpaying for 2 yrs something like 2/$17-18 M w/ a vesting $7 M option and $1 M buyout would put Ross right in the 3/$25 M range. I wouldn't call Ross Brantley-esque...Brantley is a better hitter Ross offers more pop and a useful RH bat that would offer a bit of positional flexibility as well. I'd like to see the Tribe land a fourth OF like Ryan Sweeney on minor league deal as a bit if a safety I case they miss out on Swisher and Ross. Sweeney doesn't offer much pop with the bat but can man any of the OF spots.

As for focusing upon pitching I completely agree, pitching has to be the priority in any and every deal. I'd be open to trading anyone on the pitching staff at this point except for Trevor Bauer. Although I'd have to be blown away to move Masterson, McAllister, Carrasco and Pestano. Otherwise anything goes for the right price.

I think the Tribe should look to sign Jackson even upto 4 yrs but not at a stupid price. I think there's a legit chance the Rangers snag both Jackson and Swisher. Honestly, I'm hoping against Shaun Marcum bc of the elbow woes last yr and in the past, but the next two options could / should be Villanueva and Myers. I'd rather see the Tribe land one or both of theses guys at a similar cost ($$$), than pay any resources whatsoever for Harang or Capuano UNLESS its a much bigger deal that includes some young high upside talent coming back to the Tribe. I just think it would be a waste of talent for the Tribe when there is equal or close talent available in FA.

Btw, the Twins inked Mike Pelfrey to a 1 yr $4 M deal w/ $1.5 in incentives. The Tribe had interest obviously they didn't reach agreement and while Pelfrey has / had some appeal there are a number of arms available still and I look for the Tribe to make a few more deals to land a bat and another SP or two.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby ironmike » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:05 am

x
Last edited by ironmike on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:07 am

Cross the Red Sox of the potential list of ACab suitors with the signing of Stephen Drew (1 yr / $9.5 M). I'm not sure they were serious suitors anyways, bc they seem to be looking to fill their needs through FA.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:25 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Cross the Red Sox of the potential list of ACab suitors with the signing of Stephen Drew (1 yr / $9.5 M). I'm not sure they were serious suitors anyways, bc they seem to be looking to fill their needs through FA.


While it will result in having the best SS the Red Sox have had in years, they clearly over spent ($ 9.5 MM/ 1 year..ouch) in lieu of using their farm system to acquire a player. It also means another year in the minors for Iglesias and his ML ready glove, no bat career. The signing does begin to make the A's situation become more and more desperate, though..

I like that !..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:24 am

Saw Stan Kasten on MLB Network in an interesting interview. He doesn't see the Dodgers as big players in FA in a couple of years. He considers this year's spending spluge as a stop gap measure while they rebuild the IFA signing/draft pipelines that he considers essential to the teams success. He said that most of the team's hires lately have added to the scouting staff & developmental people.

This obviously should be every team's model & isn't earth shattering news. The way it relates to the Tribe is in re this year's FA spending. This is the argument for going after Swisher/Jackson with serious intent. Debatable opinion but I believe that these two added to what we have now could accomplish a few things at once, i.e., renewing the local interest, changing the reputation of the club League-wide among players, fans, journalists/commentators, agents, et al, plus making us serious contenders now, as well as holding the fort until the replacements from the farm system are ready. The goal should be to put out an attractive, viable product now while building a system to the extent that we won't need to go the FA route except to occasionally fill holes.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:26 am

G'Son,

The A's and Tribe match up perfectly for a trade... We know that and so do their rivals. Not that their division rivals would target ACab as a result of their interest, ACab would be an upgrade for a number of clubs and could offer some positional flexibility. While I'd like to see the Tribe flip ACab to St. Louis for (preferably) Lance Lynn or Joe Kelly and Matt Adams. The best offer could come from one of the left coast teams Seattle, Oakland, the Angels or Dodgers. There are a number of trade rumors circling the Indians and Angels right now. It seems at least some sort of trade could go down between the two clubs but I'm not sure if its fan / media speculation. There seems to be some real logic behind some of the speculation and probably some truth behind some of the rumors.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:38 am

Rocky,

Good run down I think that's the Tribes model that they are trying to employ on a smaller scale obviously. Frankly, I like the plan bc it increases organizational talent, both directly and indirectly. It adds org. talent directly, by deepening the roster assuming FA are upgrades to what the team has on the roster. It also increases talent indirectly, by providing the team roster flexibility to make moves in trades and acq. more talent.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:39 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:G'Son,

The A's and Tribe match up perfectly for a trade... We know that and so do their rivals. Not that their division rivals would target ACab as a result of their interest, ACab would be an upgrade for a number of clubs and could offer some positional flexibility. While I'd like to see the Tribe flip ACab to St. Louis for (preferably) Lance Lynn or Joe Kelly and Matt Adams. The best offer could come from one of the left coast teams Seattle, Oakland, the Angels or Dodgers. There are a number of trade rumors circling the Indians and Angels right now. It seems at least some sort of trade could go down between the two clubs but I'm not sure if its fan / media speculation. There seems to be some real logic behind some of the speculation and probably some truth behind some of the rumors.

Call it the antithesis of cynicism, but,every rumor has at its core a grain of truth or logic that goes to feeding the frenzy, or lack thereof. The Left Coast clubs all seem to be 'players' for the Indians and that could be a good thing.. I fully agree with you on the St Louis potential, yet remain vigilant regarding the best fit still being the Mariners. The A's are a close second, imho. The Mariner fans, or the vocal ones at least ( see: USS Mariner, Lookout Landing and or the The News Tribune out of Tacoma Washington) are at a point where they are getting pretty frustrated with Jack Z and his lack of imagination/action. The Hot Stove has another 9 weeks to go before Pitchers and Catchers report to Spring Training in Goodyear Arizona.. It could be a llllloooooooooonnnnnnnngggggggggg nine weeks or a fun nine weeks. We shall see...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:31 pm

If the Indians were to strike a deal with the Cardinals for Cabrera, I'd want Shelby Miller. Heck, I'd trade him straight up. A rotation of Masterson, Jimenez, Bauer, McCallister, Carrasco and Miller has a ton of upside. Add to that some arms currently in the system and perhaps a FA (Villanueva would be my target) and we're pretty much set in that regard. Adding Nick Swisher would make the lineup that much stronger as well, and it would place us firmly into contention for next year imo.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:45 pm

Looks like RA Dicky and the Blue Jays have agreed on an extension.

If the deal were just for Travis D'Arnaudn & Noah Syndergaard, without Buck and an extra prospect it will still be a damn fine haul for the Mets.

The Mets have what we all agree the Indians need. Matt Harvey and potentially Zach Wheeler coming up and now Syndergaard in the mix, that is a damn fine trio of young pitchers with fantastic upside.

The Indians are off to a good start with Trevor Bauer in house. Hopefully in the coming weeks or even months the Indians have a trio themselves that inspire a fair amount of hope.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:59 pm

Here's a scouting/valuation report regarding Jerry Hairton as a FA:

..Scott Hairston is not unlike Ryan Sweeney in that he can play all three outfield positions, a talent that should appeal to any team looking for a versatile outfielder.

One key difference between Hairston and Sweeney is that Hairston is right-handed. Another main difference is that Hairston actually has some pop in his bat.

Hairston is coming off a season in which he hit a career-high 20 home runs with a career-high .504 slugging percentage and a career-high .803 OPS. He also achieved a new career high for games played with 134.

It's no wonder Hairston is looking to get his while the getting is good. Any team viewing him as a one-year stopgap should look elsewhere, as Hairston has told ESPNNewYork.com that he aims to find a multiyear deal this winter.

The best contract to use as a template for his next deal is probably the two-year, $10 million deal that Jonny Gomes signed with the Boston Red Sox. Hairston doesn't have as much power as Gomes does, but he has Gomes beat by a mile in the versatility department.

After making only $1.1 million in 2012, Hairston may not say no to a $5 million-per-year offer...
Homer, In short, at that price, he'd be 1/3 or Swisher's price tag and would give around the same performance/results. Your suggestion about looking into him would appear to be valid..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:04 pm

Another interesting note from this listing of FA's and Available ML'ers that could impact teams in the 2013 season: A trade for the Braves Mike Minor or:
...Minor has plenty of talent as well. He entered the 2011 season as one of the top prospects in baseball, and he performed well in his first full season as a starter in 2012, compiling a 4.12 ERA and a 1.15 WHIP in 30 starts. Minor gave a glimpse of how great he could be in the second half, as he posted a 2.16 ERA and a 0.87 ERA over 87.1 innings in 14 starts. He upped his K/BB from 1.95 to 4.19..... It's going to take at least a legit starter to land Minor. The trade-off is that he's going to be dirt-cheap over the next couple of seasons, and he has the potential to be a No. 2 or even a No. 1 starting pitcher. Down the line, Minor could prove to be the best starting pitcher acquired this winter
This could be the one for one deal we've been looking for with Asdrubal Cabrera going to the Braves for Minor.. I'd be ecstatic about that kind of deal..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:22 pm

Miller isn't on the table and based on previous rumors the Tribe and Jays have talked 3 of 4: Lance Lynn, Matt Adams, Matt Carpenter and Seth Blair. There were a cpl deals they were rumored to be close to getting done but the Tribes insistence upon a fourth player in the deal - Matt Carpenter - was the deal breaker for the Cards. Btw, I'd trade straight up for Miller too. Rosenthal is another arm the Tribe should try to acq. along with OF Oscar Tavares. The Cards finished right on the door step of a WS birth last yr one "small" move could push them over the top and the offense ACab could provide could help them win the WS this time around. Another note of interest should be that the Cards recently signed Ty Wigginton to a 2 yr / $ 5 M deal. Wigginton provides the Cards a RH utility bat and hits lefties well. This could help make Carpenter available in a trade IF the Tribe and Cards revisit such a deal.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:24 pm

@Buster_ESPN: The Indians are making a push in their effort to land Nick Swisher.

We shall see what happens
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:25 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe and Jays have talked 3 of 4: Lance Lynn, Matt Adams, Matt Carpenter and Seth Blair. There were a cpl deals they were rumored to be close to getting done but the Tribes insistence upon a fourth player in the deal - Matt Carpenter - was the deal breaker for the Cards.


This happened when exactly?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:31 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe and Jays have talked 3 of 4: Lance Lynn, Matt Adams, Matt Carpenter and Seth Blair. There were a cpl deals they were rumored to be close to getting done but the Tribes insistence upon a fourth player in the deal - Matt Carpenter - was the deal breaker for the Cards.


This happened when exactly?
He meant Tribe and Cards...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:37 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe and Jays have talked 3 of 4: Lance Lynn, Matt Adams, Matt Carpenter and Seth Blair. There were a cpl deals they were rumored to be close to getting done but the Tribes insistence upon a fourth player in the deal - Matt Carpenter - was the deal breaker for the Cards.


This happened when exactly?
He meant Tribe and Cards...


No that part I understood, the only reported deal by anyone I've seen has been the rumored deal with the Phillies who would have moved him to 3rd base that fell apart due to the Indians asking for a 4th player.

Who reported this supposed deal with the Cards?
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