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MLB Hot Stove

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:41 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Well, Hermie, you've been critical of Asdrubal since the first Fangraphs UZR150 described his defense as mediocre to poor and you've remained consistent. This latest indirect slam of Droobs (getting Yunel instead of Droobs because he may be able to hit just as well and fields better and the tribe also gets Logan dot dot dot yada yada) is what it it.. As stated the first time, as well as every time since, the eye test results for Droobs work with the leather doesn't agree with the UZR findings.. The eye test wins.


Actually I have never said Cabrera's defense is sub-par because of UZR. In fact, I've actually used FRAA and DRS more than UZR when talking about Cabrera's below average defense. You're the one that always seems to bring up UZR with Cabrera...

And Cabrera does NOT pass the eye test defensively. Makes some great plays but lacks range, plain and simple. Not going to go into it any further as it's been beat to death and most people will agree with me that his defense is not up to par.

I wouldn't be overwhelmed with an Escobar and Morrison for Cabrera deal (think we could get more) but don't think it's a bad deal. Think it's a moot point though as don't think the Marlins would be interested in Cabrera with how much he makes.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Well, Hermie, you've been critical of Asdrubal since the first Fangraphs UZR150 described his defense as mediocre to poor and you've remained consistent. This latest indirect slam of Droobs (getting Yunel instead of Droobs because he may be able to hit just as well and fields better and the tribe also gets Logan dot dot dot yada yada) is what it it.. As stated the first time, as well as every time since, the eye test results for Droobs work with the leather doesn't agree with the UZR findings.. The eye test wins.


Actually I have never said Cabrera's defense is sub-par because of UZR. In fact, I've actually used FRAA and DRS more than UZR when talking about Cabrera's below average defense. You're the one that always seems to bring up UZR with Cabrera...

And Cabrera does NOT pass the eye test defensively. Makes some great plays but lacks range, plain and simple. Not going to go into it any further as it's been beat to death and most people will agree with me that his defense is not up to par.

I wouldn't be overwhelmed with an Escobar and Morrison for Cabrera deal (think we could get more) but don't think it's a bad deal. Think it's a moot point though as don't think the Marlins would be interested in Cabrera with how much he makes.


The eye test wins as Droobs passes with flying colors and a bit of a flare!!!.. Droobs is a better defensive SS than you're giving him credit for. and using FRAA and DRS more than UZR or UZR 150 doesn't trump the eye test as it relates to Droob's work with the leather.. and it's now going as far as it's going to go....
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:01 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I completely agree the Tribe won't move ACab unless the deal lands them starting pitching they've pretty well made that known. I think it's a good idea and apparently they've decided he's their most valuable trade piece and they did well to back him up by bringing in Aviles.

I think the Tribe should move CPerez and Choo this offseason and push to move ACab too. I think they should absolutely hold onto Masterson unless they get blown away in a deal ala the Gonzalez & Latos deals. I'll give a quick run down...

Choo - is in his walk yr and won't resign with the Tribe unless they sign a ton of Scott Boras clients for over mkt deals :surprised . Seriously, he's as good as gone question is when. The likely get the same return for him now or at the dealline bc there are a number of options on the mkt for OF and teams know he might leave. I think the Pence tr gives us an idea what they could get in return. The Phillies got Joseph-c #3 prospect, Scheirholtz a OF/ PH bench bat and Rosin #18 prospect from the Giants for the AS OF. Choo has better career numbers so a similar deal should be in mind.

ACab - the mkt is clearly thin on SS and the Tribe could easily move Cabrera to a number of teams although the Tribes demands are said to be a front of the line type starter... A young stud top 50 prospect type or young MLB starter like Lance Lynn of the Cards would be idea.

Chris Perez - the Closer mkt is pretty thin and the Tribe has BP depth to use. Perez is set to get a sizable boost in cash and with the depth of the pen and potential replacements for Perez on the team already in the form of Allen and Pestano I think the time is now for the Tribe to maximize their return for Perez.

I'm not of the opinion that the Tribe should be in complete melt down phase right now, although I think they should look to move these three aggressively with the mind of landing two or three solid SP prospects / now talent Ill try to post some realistic and reasonable trade options for the Tribe later...


While the free agent SS market is pretty thin, there could be a number of SSs on the trade block, which could hold up any potential Cabrera deal. Escobar was already dealt once and sounds like he's back on the block. The Orioles could easily put JJ Hardy on the block with Machado moving back to his SS spot. Rangers seem to be holding on to both of theirs but things could change and maybe a guy like Andrus makes his way to the trade block. Even a guy like Peralta sounds like he could be on the block right now. Reds could make a guy like Cozart available too.

Other than Andrus, Cabrera did have the highest fWAR of any of these guys...but only barely. His 2.9 fWAR was only slightly higher than Hardy at 2.8, Cozart at 2.7, and Peralta at 2.6. Yunel was only at 1.8 but in 2011 was at 4.2, so some team could take a flyer on him if the price is right. Obviously WAR isn't the only thing to look at but I am willing to bet many teams are looking at some of these numbers and asking themselves just how much Cabrera is worth right now....may be better for them to wait and see how the trade market goes as the winter moves along.

Same thing sort of goes for Perez, except it's more with the free agents like Soriano, Valverde, Madsen, Broxton, Soria, etc. Sure some of these guys are coming off injury or struggled, but after what the Rays got out of Rodney and what the Rangers got out of Nathan, teams may not be willing to give up a lot for Perez. Do think eventually some team will cave and give up something nice for him though...


I agree with you on Choo. I think we should get at least what the Phillies got for Pence even though Choo only has a year left whereas Pence had a year and a half. I actually wonder if you couldn't get Joseph from the Phillies as they could be looking for a cOFer. I'd ask for Brown, Joseph, and May (might as well be bold). Probably get shot down but Brown just seemingly is always in the doghouse there so maybe they'd go for it. I'd love to see what he could do though with a change of scenery.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby BrianM » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:25 am

Hermie13 wrote:
While the free agent SS market is pretty thin, there could be a number of SSs on the trade block, which could hold up any potential Cabrera deal. Escobar was already dealt once and sounds like he's back on the block. The Orioles could easily put JJ Hardy on the block with Machado moving back to his SS spot. Rangers seem to be holding on to both of theirs but things could change and maybe a guy like Andrus makes his way to the trade block. Even a guy like Peralta sounds like he could be on the block right now. Reds could make a guy like Cozart available too.

Other than Andrus, Cabrera did have the highest fWAR of any of these guys...but only barely. His 2.9 fWAR was only slightly higher than Hardy at 2.8, Cozart at 2.7, and Peralta at 2.6. Yunel was only at 1.8 but in 2011 was at 4.2, so some team could take a flyer on him if the price is right. Obviously WAR isn't the only thing to look at but I am willing to bet many teams are looking at some of these numbers and asking themselves just how much Cabrera is worth right now....may be better for them to wait and see how the trade market goes as the winter moves along.

Same thing sort of goes for Perez, except it's more with the free agents like Soriano, Valverde, Madsen, Broxton, Soria, etc. Sure some of these guys are coming off injury or struggled, but after what the Rays got out of Rodney and what the Rangers got out of Nathan, teams may not be willing to give up a lot for Perez. Do think eventually some team will cave and give up something nice for him though...


I agree with you on Choo. I think we should get at least what the Phillies got for Pence even though Choo only has a year left whereas Pence had a year and a half. I actually wonder if you couldn't get Joseph from the Phillies as they could be looking for a cOFer. I'd ask for Brown, Joseph, and May (might as well be bold). Probably get shot down but Brown just seemingly is always in the doghouse there so maybe they'd go for it. I'd love to see what he could do though with a change of scenery.


Good Post. The fWAR numbers are interesting. I would be curious to know what ACabs fWAR was the first half compared to the second half. There was a span of three weeks or so in August I believe where Astroball looked incredibly unfocused and looked as if he wouldnt have been able to hit a beach ball. Im still gonna take the more optimistic approach and assume that teams do value Acab more than anything else that is out there, but with more potential SS's available, it does hinder our ability to negotiate.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:14 am

Kenny Rosenthal saying the Indians are looking into Nick Swisher and other free agents despite having no chance of signing them. Not sure if that's even reporting since all teams should be doing due diligence.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbb ... _post=true

Also looks as though the Indians will non tender Raffy Perez, and just a name of interest, Mark Reynolds could be let go from Baltimore.

Also Brent Lillibridge opted for free agency
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:41 pm

Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby timdav » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:18 pm

Have read free agent starter Zack Greinke wants $25 million a year for 6+ years.

OMG...that's beyond ridiculous! A good pitcher, but he's not the 2012 version of Cy Young.

25 of the 30 teams I wouldn't think can afford a $25 million dollar a year player, do you guys? WOW!!!!
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:23 pm

timdav wrote:Have read free agent starter Zack Greinke wants $25 million a year for 6+ years.

OMG...that's beyond ridiculous! A good pitcher, but he's not the 2012 version of Cy Young.

25 of the 30 teams I wouldn't think can afford a $25 million dollar a year player, do you guys? WOW!!!!


13 of the 30 teams could afford his services.. a number less than 13 would actually make an attempt..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:50 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?


Well the Indians would have to tender Perez a contract which is now in question. If the Indians don't the Cards can just sign him and not dick around with yet another convoluted trade idea.

I would be all for signing Haren too. Not sure the Indians seem too excited to blow their wad on another known injury risk, especially at starting pitcher. Don't see Haren going for a club option either. He'll get 2 years minimum from someone, San Diego has been mentioned a lot recently as a potential destination.

That said, as someone who's dealt with and required back surgery in the past, I had issues sometimes just walking. I think it's pretty incredible when I read about guys like Haren and Roy Oswalt pitching with back injuries the way they do. Some legit tough SOB's.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:58 am

Jon Heyman reporting Ryan Madson close to signing with the LA Angels
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:55 am

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?


Well the Indians would have to tender Perez a contract which is now in question. If the Indians don't the Cards can just sign him and not dick around with yet another convoluted trade idea.

I would be all for signing Haren too. Not sure the Indians seem too excited to blow their wad on another known injury risk, especially at starting pitcher. Don't see Haren going for a club option either. He'll get 2 years minimum from someone, San Diego has been mentioned a lot recently as a potential destination.

That said, as someone who's dealt with and required back surgery in the past, I had issues sometimes just walking. I think it's pretty incredible when I read about guys like Haren and Roy Oswalt pitching with back injuries the way they do. Some legit tough SOB's.


Not looking too promising for a Haren to SD destination:

...In a piece for MLB.com, Brock writes that the Padres would like to add two starting pitchers to their rotation this season, but quotes GM Josh Byrnes as saying they're not in a position to take fliers on injury risks...


..but you're correct about back injuries.. they can be debilitating. Good thing Haren doesn't have one...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:54 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?


Well the Indians would have to tender Perez a contract which is now in question. If the Indians don't the Cards can just sign him and not dick around with yet another convoluted trade idea.

I would be all for signing Haren too. Not sure the Indians seem too excited to blow their wad on another known injury risk, especially at starting pitcher. Don't see Haren going for a club option either. He'll get 2 years minimum from someone, San Diego has been mentioned a lot recently as a potential destination.

That said, as someone who's dealt with and required back surgery in the past, I had issues sometimes just walking. I think it's pretty incredible when I read about guys like Haren and Roy Oswalt pitching with back injuries the way they do. Some legit tough SOB's.


Not looking too promising for a Haren to SD destination:

...In a piece for MLB.com, Brock writes that the Padres would like to add two starting pitchers to their rotation this season, but quotes GM Josh Byrnes as saying they're not in a position to take fliers on injury risks...


..but you're correct about back injuries.. they can be debilitating. Good thing Haren doesn't have one...


Yeah, good thing he said he was dealing with a back injury that he didn't have....yeah...

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03 ... s-20120704
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:20 am

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?


Well the Indians would have to tender Perez a contract which is now in question. If the Indians don't the Cards can just sign him and not dick around with yet another convoluted trade idea.

I would be all for signing Haren too. Not sure the Indians seem too excited to blow their wad on another known injury risk, especially at starting pitcher. Don't see Haren going for a club option either. He'll get 2 years minimum from someone, San Diego has been mentioned a lot recently as a potential destination.

That said, as someone who's dealt with and required back surgery in the past, I had issues sometimes just walking. I think it's pretty incredible when I read about guys like Haren and Roy Oswalt pitching with back injuries the way they do. Some legit tough SOB's.


Not looking too promising for a Haren to SD destination:

...In a piece for MLB.com, Brock writes that the Padres would like to add two starting pitchers to their rotation this season, but quotes GM Josh Byrnes as saying they're not in a position to take fliers on injury risks...


..but you're correct about back injuries.. they can be debilitating. Good thing Haren doesn't have one...


Yeah, good thing he said he was dealing with a back injury that he didn't have....yeah...

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03 ... s-20120704


It's his hip, not his back. second source:

Teams are concerned about Dan Haren’s hip, not his back, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports (on Twitter). Haren’s bad hip won’t prevent teams from showing interest, according to Olney."


As stated.. GOOD THING IT'S NOT HIS BACK.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:12 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?


Well the Indians would have to tender Perez a contract which is now in question. If the Indians don't the Cards can just sign him and not dick around with yet another convoluted trade idea.

I would be all for signing Haren too. Not sure the Indians seem too excited to blow their wad on another known injury risk, especially at starting pitcher. Don't see Haren going for a club option either. He'll get 2 years minimum from someone, San Diego has been mentioned a lot recently as a potential destination.

That said, as someone who's dealt with and required back surgery in the past, I had issues sometimes just walking. I think it's pretty incredible when I read about guys like Haren and Roy Oswalt pitching with back injuries the way they do. Some legit tough SOB's.


Not looking too promising for a Haren to SD destination:

...In a piece for MLB.com, Brock writes that the Padres would like to add two starting pitchers to their rotation this season, but quotes GM Josh Byrnes as saying they're not in a position to take fliers on injury risks...


..but you're correct about back injuries.. they can be debilitating. Good thing Haren doesn't have one...


Yeah, good thing he said he was dealing with a back injury that he didn't have....yeah...

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03 ... s-20120704


It's his hip, not his back. second source:

Teams are concerned about Dan Haren’s hip, not his back, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports (on Twitter). Haren’s bad hip won’t prevent teams from showing interest, according to Olney."


As stated.. GOOD THING IT'S NOT HIS BACK.


It's not a back that is of the most concern to teams according to Olney. However, Dan Haren has had back issues this year, which still should be of some concern to teams. You are both right here it seems.


I still tihnk he's a guy the Trbie could take a chance on. Falls into that Kevin Milwood or possibly even Carl Pavano category (though obviously not as injured as he was). I know some think he can get a 2 year deal, which I doubt the Tribe would offer but could be a benefit to Haren to just take a 1 year incentive laden deal, get healthy and then try and cash in a year later (like Milwood, Pavano, and many others have in the past). Tribe also showed intrest in dealing for Haren back when he was still with the A's (Cabrera's name was actually mentioned), so maybe the interest on the Tribe part is still there...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Ahhhhh... the perfect Indians opportunities haveee arisen....

-The St Louis Cardinals are looking for a Veteran LHRP to go with Mark Rep-eye-chart.. Let's see if the Cardinals would take Droobs and Rafael Perez (afterall, Raffy left is way less expensive than Jeremy Affeldt at $ 6 MM/yr for three years) for Matt Adams and Trevor Rosenthal? Maybe the Indians would be willing to give up something more.. for something more.. say, Taveras for Lindor as well.. making this a HUGE deally-bob?

The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...

Thoughts?


Well the Indians would have to tender Perez a contract which is now in question. If the Indians don't the Cards can just sign him and not dick around with yet another convoluted trade idea.

I would be all for signing Haren too. Not sure the Indians seem too excited to blow their wad on another known injury risk, especially at starting pitcher. Don't see Haren going for a club option either. He'll get 2 years minimum from someone, San Diego has been mentioned a lot recently as a potential destination.

That said, as someone who's dealt with and required back surgery in the past, I had issues sometimes just walking. I think it's pretty incredible when I read about guys like Haren and Roy Oswalt pitching with back injuries the way they do. Some legit tough SOB's.


Not looking too promising for a Haren to SD destination:

...In a piece for MLB.com, Brock writes that the Padres would like to add two starting pitchers to their rotation this season, but quotes GM Josh Byrnes as saying they're not in a position to take fliers on injury risks...


..but you're correct about back injuries.. they can be debilitating. Good thing Haren doesn't have one...


Yeah, good thing he said he was dealing with a back injury that he didn't have....yeah...

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/03 ... s-20120704


It's his hip, not his back. second source:

Teams are concerned about Dan Haren’s hip, not his back, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports (on Twitter). Haren’s bad hip won’t prevent teams from showing interest, according to Olney."


As stated.. GOOD THING IT'S NOT HIS BACK.


It's not a back that is of the most concern to teams according to Olney. However, Dan Haren has had back issues this year, which still should be of some concern to teams. You are both right here it seems.


I still tihnk he's a guy the Trbie could take a chance on. Falls into that Kevin Milwood or possibly even Carl Pavano category (though obviously not as injured as he was). I know some think he can get a 2 year deal, which I doubt the Tribe would offer but could be a benefit to Haren to just take a 1 year incentive laden deal, get healthy and then try and cash in a year later (like Milwood, Pavano, and many others have in the past). Tribe also showed intrest in dealing for Haren back when he was still with the A's (Cabrera's name was actually mentioned), so maybe the interest on the Tribe part is still there...


No, Hermie... one of us is correct in stating the reason for the Cubs backing out of the deal that would have sent Carlos Marmol from Chicago to the Angels for Dan Haren was his bad hip and the subject so identified. The other person in this tet-a-tet is NOT CORRECT.

Agree with the idea that Haren could be a target and falls into the millwood / make good type former highly regarded SP that needs to recover / rejuvenate his career. If Haren signs a one year deal, and, as he's now stated, is fully healthy, the Indians may be able to flip him at the trading deadline for something of significant value. That is, if nothing else goes wrong with his back..
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:27 pm

Robert Wood, a blogger for the Washington Nationals has the following to offer:

...Tyler Moore was a valuable member of the so-called "Goon Squad" during the 2012 MLB season.

He played in 75 games, and had 156 total at-bats, hitting .263 with 10 home runs, 29 RBI and a .513 slugging percentage. As a pinch-hitter, Moore was clutch, finishing with six hits, two home runs and five RBI in his 29 pinch-hit at-bats. His one postseason at-bat came also as a pinch hitter, when he hit the game-winning two-run single in Game 1 of the NLDS.

Although Tyler Moore primarily played as a left fielder, he is a natural first baseman. This fact, along with his youth, and proven ability to hit major league pitching, make him a valuable commodity during an offseason that is thin at the first base position.

Ben Nicholson-Smith of MLBTradeRumors.com writes that the Cleveland Indians are one team that could be interested in Moore, saying "Tyler Moore and Lucas Duda are examples of the powerful, controllable players that might intrigue Indians executives this winter....


Wood also states the following about the return for Tyler: Shin-soo Choo:

...Assuming that the Nationals do not re-sign Adam LaRoche, they could move Michael Morse to first base full-time and use Chad Tracy as a back-up. This would make Tyler Moore expendable and also create an opening at one of the corner outfield positions, which would be filled quite nicely by Shin-Soo Choo.....


While it says Choo for Tyler, the Nationals return seems a bit heavy but, the idea seems to be solid. It should be noted that the same blogger thinks James Shields to the Nationals for Michael Morse would be a fair deal. Again, another trade that is a good idea, but the return to the Nationals is a bit heavy. Thoughts on the Moore for Choo trade idea? Perhaps the Nats would be so inclined to add something of particular interest such as Eury Perez or Sandy Leon, the Nats' # 7 & # 15 prospects, respectively?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:52 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
The mystery surrounding Dan Haren's deal between the Cubs for Marmol and the Angels has been outed. The 'injury' issue is a hip problem, not a back problem. While neither is desired, most hip injuries can be addressed or repaired.. back injuries, now so much... With Haren already mostly paid for in 2013 (the buy out).. why not a one year or a one year and club option with incentives type deal for this recent F.O.R. SP?... No prospects would be involved and the Indians first round pick would be protected if that matters (I don't know or care if it does)...


..but you're correct about back injuries.. they can be debilitating. Good thing Haren doesn't have one...

It's his hip, not his back. second source:

Teams are concerned about Dan Haren’s hip, not his back, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports (on Twitter). Haren’s bad hip won’t prevent teams from showing interest, according to Olney."


As stated.. GOOD THING IT'S NOT HIS BACK.

No, Hermie... one of us is correct in stating the reason for the Cubs backing out of the deal that would have sent Carlos Marmol from Chicago to the Angels for Dan Haren was his bad hip and the subject so identified. The other person in this tet-a-tet is NOT CORRECT.

Agree with the idea that Haren could be a target and falls into the millwood / make good type former highly regarded SP that needs to recover / rejuvenate his career. If Haren signs a one year deal, and, as he's now stated, is fully healthy, the Indians may be able to flip him at the trading deadline for something of significant value. That is, if nothing else goes wrong with his back..


So which is it then? His back, his hip, or whatever helps your little argument?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:56 pm

The Mets non-tendered Mike Pelfrey coming off Tommy John surgery last May.

I've followed Pelfrey since he was in college and never really liked him much considering the attention he drew (he was always well-hyped), but the guy is big and has a plus MLB fastball. He's 28-years old and despite having a below average, dinky slider, he's been an OK starter for the Mets for a few years.

I'll give credit to the Indians developing Zach McAllister, a guy that I think most Indians fans underrate. I think Pelfrey is more talented (more arm strength), but is a similar pitcher to McAllister. The Indians could potentially be successful with Pelfrey, albeit less than likely he reaches the ceiling he was once perceived to have by those whom are not me.

Even as a guy that never liked Mike Pelfrey in the draft or as a prospect, this is something that should be right down the Indians alley. The Indians want young pitching; here's a guy that's available at a reasonable price. They've got to investigate this one.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:58 pm

Couple interesting names that are expected to be non tendered by the Mets

Andres Torres and Mike Pelfrey.

Torres seems more likely than Shane Victorino ever will.

Pelfrey has been one of my personal favorites over the years. He certainly comes to mind as a guy looking to rebuild his value, but I don't see the Mets letting him get away despite non tendering him later this week.

EDIT: @OhioBaseball good call on Pelfrey
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:03 pm

Nick Camino mentioned this on the Twitter

Heard this: Several teams interested in former #Indians DH Travis Hafner. Is Cleveland one of them?


I kinda hope the Indians just move on from Hafner, but we'll see how Antonetti and Francona feel about a DH that can't play 80 games.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:22 pm

Big Pelf is a very good risk / reward SP candidate. He could possibly start in extended Spring Training and work his way back to full strength and command. The Indians had a bit of a reputation for being able to bring guys like him back.. time to test the theory.

Problem is, Pelf's agent is Scott Boras.. so that doesn't bode well for the Indians.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby BrianM » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:37 pm

The guys at mlbtraderumors are doing an AL Central chat tonight at 7 (or 6pm CST according to the site).

Here's the link http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/d ... chats.html . I dont know how to get linked into the chat though, so if your interested, just jump on MLBTR around that time and hopefully they have a link for it

I just read the AL East chat they did and it was very informative. I don't know how credible these guys actually are, but they seem to know their stuff. The chat was really long too. Tons of questions answered about all teams. Here are some relative highlights.

Do the sox get napoli and swisher?
I think they'll reel in Napoli but not Swisher. Boston seems to be going all in on dead-pull RHB for Fenway.

People have said Boston is likely for Swisher, but if they end up being out of it, our chances of landing him should go up slightly.

Do Reynolds and McLouth return to Baltimore and if not, who replaces them?
McLouth yes, Reynolds no. They seem like a fit for someone like Jason Bay, a roll the dice guy.

Another person who seems to think Reynolds is out in Balt

Do you think the Jays will bring me back (Shaun Marcum)?
Seems like a good fit, no? That said, I remember reading something saying AA isn't a big fan. Marcum's a personal fave, very tough dude.

At one point, Jays were the media favorite to land Marcum. Could be risk/reward option for us.

Is a trade for Alex Gordon or Shin-Soo Choo a good move for the Yankees?
Yes to both. Gordon would be a better fit.

do the sox trade for old friend justin masterson?
Yeah, I could totally see that. Those two teams match up well.

Nothing we havent heard already.

Chances of the Yanks trading Nova?
I could see it, but I think they'll hold onto him while his value is down.

Interesting player if he could be had for cheap.

Do they Jays bring back Carlos Villenueva?
I think AA might have burned that bridge after publicly questioning his durability.

Another FA option.

Ben can't be serious about Iglesias/Ciriaco. Who does he acquire to play SS?
Yeah I can't see either guy as a starting MLB SS, at least not right now. Asdrubal Cabrera makes a ton of sense, Stephen Drew as well.

Again, not really new insight.

How about Asdrubal Cabrera, Justin Masterson, Sin Soo Choo to Redsox for Lavarnway, Iglesias, Matt Barnes, and Jerry Sands?
That's not even close. Maybe enough for Asdrubal Cabrera alone, but not those three together.

It's nice to hear someone give our guys some good value. I don't think Asdrubal could pull in all of those players, or could he?

Travis Blackley, Rich Harden, Zach Duke, John Maine– potential low-risk high-reward rotation options for Orioles?
"High-reward" is really a stretch for me.

Anytime someone mentions a list of players that could be low risk, it should be put on this forum. Harden is always interesting to here about because he can still be good if healthy.

does Matusz get a crack at starting again? if so, how does the comeback go?
I'd give him another shot, but I think they'll keep him in the bullpen.

I'd love to somehow acquire Matusz in hopes that a change of scenery can fix whatever the problem is with him. Doesnt seem like a likely trade candidate though considering his value is probably so low.

Any chance in the Sox could pull Alex Gordon away from KC? Seems like a nice fit for Fenway
Sure, but he's one of the 10-15 best OF in the game. KC would want a young, MLB ready SP, and I don't think the Sox would part with Buchholz to get him. Doubront's not enough, Barnes isn't ready.

More reason to believe Choo fits the bill.

Of Cuddyer, Pence, Choo, and Morrison, who do you think the Yanks could land? At what cost?
Cuddyer should be rather easy to acquire. Maybe a Grade-B pitching prospect like Brett Marshall.

Can this be true? I know he is often hurt and he doesnt have a cheap contract, but he can certainly hit the ball when healthy and has versatility in the field. If he is 'rather easy to acquire' we should be looking into that pretty hard.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:50 pm

I was there for the AL East chat.. entered about ten questions, none were listed during he chat. There were nearly 1000 chatters in the room at the time, as well, so they had a boat load of queries they had to sort through..

Couple of points to make from a 'vet' MLBTR chat participant:
1. Keep questions SHORT. None of these convoluted things you'd see with a Tribe028 posting. They'll never get read
2. Ask for a poll early or it wont get posted or it won't get much participation
3. Be clever: Having your name, like "The Ghost of Ozzie" for a CWSox question focuses their attention
4. Sent many questions.

...How about Asdrubal Cabrera, Justin Masterson, Sin Soo Choo to Redsox for Lavarnway, Iglesias, Matt Barnes, and Jerry Sands?
That's not even close. Maybe enough for Asdrubal Cabrera alone, but not those three together.


Thought this was the most interesting comment from the chat for an Indians fan. The overpay originally suggested was balanced with the underpay with the not even close portion of the comment.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:45 am

The Indians reinstated Nick Hagadone to the 40 man roster today, Rafael Perez was DFA'd to make room
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:03 am

GoTribe028 wrote:The Indians reinstated Nick Hagadone to the 40 man roster today, Rafael Perez was DFA'd to make room


That had to be in response or as a requirement for the November 30th cut off date for the Non-tender deadline/40 man roster setting... no?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:28 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:The Indians reinstated Nick Hagadone to the 40 man roster today, Rafael Perez was DFA'd to make room


That had to be in response or as a requirement for the November 30th cut off date for the Non-tender deadline/40 man roster setting... no?


Most likely, not sure if a decision on Hagadone needed made either. Hoynes tweeted that Hagadone's grievance against the Indians is "still in play"

Not sure if the 40 man roster needing set had anything to do with it other than they needed the spot. Since the roster protection deadline past, this move i suppose would be treated as if Perez were DFA'd for a FA signing.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:41 am

GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:The Indians reinstated Nick Hagadone to the 40 man roster today, Rafael Perez was DFA'd to make room


That had to be in response or as a requirement for the November 30th cut off date for the Non-tender deadline/40 man roster setting... no?


Most likely, not sure if a decision on Hagadone needed made either. Hoynes tweeted that Hagadone's grievance against the Indians is "still in play"

Not sure if the 40 man roster needing set had anything to do with it other than they needed the spot. Since the roster protection deadline past, this move i suppose would be treated as if Perez were DFA'd for a FA signing.

Most of what Hoynes has to say is either wrong or part of an agenda that has nothing to do with the best interest of the Cleveland Indians. The deadline for the non-tender is day after tomorrow, so the timing is appropriate. It's surprising that the Indians and Cardinals didn't get together (at least not yet) on moving Raffy Left there, even for something as dull as cash considerations...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:57 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:The Indians reinstated Nick Hagadone to the 40 man roster today, Rafael Perez was DFA'd to make room


That had to be in response or as a requirement for the November 30th cut off date for the Non-tender deadline/40 man roster setting... no?


Most likely, not sure if a decision on Hagadone needed made either. Hoynes tweeted that Hagadone's grievance against the Indians is "still in play"

Not sure if the 40 man roster needing set had anything to do with it other than they needed the spot. Since the roster protection deadline past, this move i suppose would be treated as if Perez were DFA'd for a FA signing.

Most of what Hoynes has to say is either wrong or part of an agenda that has nothing to do with the best interest of the Cleveland Indians. The deadline for the non-tender is day after tomorrow, so the timing is appropriate. It's surprising that the Indians and Cardinals didn't get together (at least not yet) on moving Raffy Left there, even for something as dull as cash considerations...


Raffy's shoulder surgery likely killed any trade value he had. May be looking at a minor league deal this winter. Sad to see him DFAed but gotta imagine this means the Tribe isn't too optimistic on his health...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:00 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:It's surprising that the Indians and Cardinals didn't get together (at least not yet) on moving Raffy Left there, even for something as dull as cash considerations...


I think a lot of people have conveniently forgotten that Perez is coming off an injury and is a shell of his 2007/2008 self. He missed almost the entire 2012 season because of the lat/shoulder issues and had numerous setbacks in his recovery. Not a good sign.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:58 pm

A few interesting tidbits from the MLB Trade Rumors Chat on the NL West:

Regarding SD:
-Comment From Tim: GM Byrnes has indicated that the Padres are looking for two SPs- one through a trade and one in FA. Who do you think the Padres are likely targeting in a trade?
-3:06: Ben Nicholson-Smith: I expect the Padres are playing the waiting game to an extent. I wonder if they might inquire on pitchers like Brett Anderson, Ubaldo Jimenez and Rick Porcello in trade talks (my speculation).

-3:44 Comment From Gordon: You see Padres possibly going after Brennan Boesch as a possible buy low candidate?
-3:44 Ben Nicholson-Smith: Interesting thought. I don't think he's worth his projected arb salary of $2.1MM though. But maybe if he's non-tendered they could sign him for less.

Regarding Az
-3:20 Comment From Hunter: D-Backs get Asdruble Cabrera from the Indians. Who else do we get, and who do we lose?
-3:20 Ben Nicholson-Smith: The Indians would want young pitching, presumably. So these two clubs actually match up reasonably well in that sense. Seems like a deal that could be an option for these clubs.

So, not a helluva lot of discussion...
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:28 pm

BJ Upton to the Braves

Varying reports on the terms, but I've seen 5 years for 14-15 million a year thrown out by a few writers
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby daingean » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:BJ Upton to the Braves

Varying reports on the terms, but I've seen 5 years for 14-15 million a year thrown out by a few writers



http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/28/braves-agree-to-terms-with-b-j-upton/

5 years $75mill.....basically the money Chipper was making....I think this is a good signing by the Braves......Still need a LF and lead off hitter......Choo for Tehran/Delgado & GilMartin?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:01 pm

daingean wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:BJ Upton to the Braves

Varying reports on the terms, but I've seen 5 years for 14-15 million a year thrown out by a few writers



http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/28/braves-agree-to-terms-with-b-j-upton/

5 years $75mill.....basically the money Chipper was making....I think this is a good signing by the Braves......Still need a LF and lead off hitter......Choo for Tehran/Delgado & GilMartin?


IMO that's far too much for a guy that posted a sub .300 OBP this year. Does fill a big need in CF but man that's a lot of dough.

If we could get 2 of those 3 for Choo I'd be all for it. Seen several Braves fans suggest Tommy Hanson for Choo which I find interesting. Velocity drop is concerning but if healthy is a very good #2 starter.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby daingean » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:41 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:BJ Upton to the Braves

Varying reports on the terms, but I've seen 5 years for 14-15 million a year thrown out by a few writers



http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/28/braves-agree-to-terms-with-b-j-upton/

5 years $75mill.....basically the money Chipper was making....I think this is a good signing by the Braves......Still need a LF and lead off hitter......Choo for Tehran/Delgado & GilMartin?


IMO that's far too much for a guy that posted a sub .300 OBP this year. Does fill a big need in CF but man that's a lot of dough.

If we could get 2 of those 3 for Choo I'd be all for it. Seen several Braves fans suggest Tommy Hanson for Choo which I find interesting. Velocity drop is concerning but if healthy is a very good #2 starter.


I like the Upton signing....yes it may be a little steep but he's 27 and just entering his prime. 28 HR's from a CF with GG potential plus he's RH (which the Braves also need with Uggla not being that middle of the order kind of guy you want).

I think Braves fans are looking for a way to get rid of Hanson but I am not sure Wren is one of them. Certainly, his recent injuries were perplexing for Brave fans especially when nothing was really said was the issue. I'd rather get Tehran and Gilmartin.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:33 am

Another one of these 'convoluted' trade ideas.. this one seems pretty good for a number of reasons:

...post by ESPN.com's Dave Schoenfield suggested a different AL West home for Upton: The Seattle Mariners. Here is Schoenfield's idea on a proposed three-team trade, via his November 23 post titled, "Five Blockbuster Trade Suggestions:

-Arizona Diamondbacks get: SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RHP Vinnie Pestano and OF Michael Saunders
-Cleveland Indians get: RHP Trevor Bauer, LHP Danny Hultzen and RHP Hector Noesi
-Seattle Mariners get: receive RF Justin Upton and OF Shin-Soo Choo...


The only changes that could be suggested involve the M's and Indians due mainly to the amount of money already invested by the M's. The M's have invested a HUGE amount of money ($ 6.35 MM signing bonus) acquiring Danny Hultzen in the June entry draft. The M's REALLY like him (and should). Hector Noesi is another one of these bullpen/spot starter tweeners that never seem to achieve a defined role and eventually become "expendable". From the Indians vantage point, Noesi should be eliminated from the trade, altogether. In addition to sacrificing Danny Hultzen, the Indians would send Ezequiel Carrera to the M's to provide an adequate lead off hitter and defensive replacement for the pending loss of Goot, or as follows:

The guys that would replace Noesi and Hultzen from the M's include one of James Paxton or Brandon Maurer. (Both of these guys are rated as lower prospects or as an undervalued replacement for Danny Hultzen) the return of old friend Franklyn Gutierrez to our wigwam and both Stefen Romero & Stephen Pryor.

So, at the end of the day, the final three way convoluted and unlikely to happen trade would be:

-Diamondbacks get: SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RHP Vinnie Pestano and OF Michael Saunders
-Indians get: RHP Trevor Bauer, LHP James Paxton, RHP Stephen Pryor, CF Franklyn Gutierrez, & 3B Stefen Romero
-Mariners get: receive RF Justin Upton, OF Shin-Soo Choo, OF Ezequiel Carrera

Thoughts on the original trade (which i prefer over the second version as it's cleaner, but, less likely w/ the inclusion of Hultzen by the M's) and the second trade?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:53 am

Nick Weglarz signs a minor league deal with Tampa Bay per Kenny Rosenthal
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:03 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Another one of these 'convoluted' trade ideas.. this one seems pretty good for a number of reasons:

...post by ESPN.com's Dave Schoenfield suggested a different AL West home for Upton: The Seattle Mariners. Here is Schoenfield's idea on a proposed three-team trade, via his November 23 post titled, "Five Blockbuster Trade Suggestions:

-Arizona Diamondbacks get: SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RHP Vinnie Pestano and OF Michael Saunders
-Cleveland Indians get: RHP Trevor Bauer, LHP Danny Hultzen and RHP Hector Noesi
-Seattle Mariners get: receive RF Justin Upton and OF Shin-Soo Choo...


The only changes that could be suggested involve the M's and Indians due mainly to the amount of money already invested by the M's. The M's have invested a HUGE amount of money ($ 6.35 MM signing bonus) acquiring Danny Hultzen in the June entry draft. The M's REALLY like him (and should). Hector Noesi is another one of these bullpen/spot starter tweeners that never seem to achieve a defined role and eventually become "expendable". From the Indians vantage point, Noesi should be eliminated from the trade, altogether. In addition to sacrificing Danny Hultzen, the Indians would send Ezequiel Carrera to the M's to provide an adequate lead off hitter and defensive replacement for the pending loss of Goot, or as follows:

The guys that would replace Noesi and Hultzen from the M's include one of James Paxton or Brandon Maurer. (Both of these guys are rated as lower prospects or as an undervalued replacement for Danny Hultzen) the return of old friend Franklyn Gutierrez to our wigwam and both Stefen Romero & Stephen Pryor.

So, at the end of the day, the final three way convoluted and unlikely to happen trade would be:

-Diamondbacks get: SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RHP Vinnie Pestano and OF Michael Saunders
-Indians get: RHP Trevor Bauer, LHP James Paxton, RHP Stephen Pryor, CF Franklyn Gutierrez, & 3B Stefen Romero
-Mariners get: receive RF Justin Upton, OF Shin-Soo Choo, OF Ezequiel Carrera

Thoughts on the original trade (which i prefer over the second version as it's cleaner, but, less likely w/ the inclusion of Hultzen by the M's) and the second trade?


Personally, I would be opposed to any deal that includes Vinnie Pestano. If a pathetic team can have an untouchable; he's as close as there is to being one.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby OhioBaseball » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:38 pm

First, I get it -- Vinnie Pestano is a very effective relief pitcher and is inexpensive. He's valuable.

However, I don't see what he does for this team. If the Indians are going to trade Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo Choo, they are basically conceding that 2013 won't be a good team, nor will the 2014 team. I know some people think this team, which was 5th worst in MLB last year, can trade Cabrera and Choo and still contend, but that's extremely unlikely. Bad teams that trade their best players very seldom turn into good teams.

Pestano is good now and he's got a history of arm injuries. He's cheap and very tradeable at the moment. He's just going to get more expensive in coming years and why does an uncompetitive team the next two years need him? I say get rid of him while he's still tradeable. Middle relievers are extremely volatile year-to-year; he's a good sell high candidate and this team doesn't really need him if Choo and Cabrera are going to be traded.

You can get a good young player for a good, cheap middle reliever. Who can forget trading Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon right before Rincon turned into a pumpkin?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:33 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:First, I get it -- Vinnie Pestano is a very effective relief pitcher and is inexpensive. He's valuable.

However, I don't see what he does for this team. If the Indians are going to trade Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo Choo, they are basically conceding that 2013 won't be a good team, nor will the 2014 team. I know some people think this team, which was 5th worst in MLB last year, can trade Cabrera and Choo and still contend, but that's extremely unlikely. Bad teams that trade their best players very seldom turn into good teams.

Pestano is good now and he's got a history of arm injuries. He's cheap and very tradeable at the moment. He's just going to get more expensive in coming years and why does an uncompetitive team the next two years need him? I say get rid of him while he's still tradeable. Middle relievers are extremely volatile year-to-year; he's a good sell high candidate and this team doesn't really need him if Choo and Cabrera are going to be traded.

You can get a good young player for a good, cheap middle reliever. Who can forget trading Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon right before Rincon turned into a pumpkin?


Well before the rumored deal fell through over a creaky elbow, Houston was going to send 29year old 1st time arbitration eligible Wilton Lopez to Phillie for right hander Tyler Cloyd and catcher Sebastian Valle.

I would imagine Pestano could easily bring in more than that. This is also Chris Antonetti we're talking about.

Still, I believe Pestano is still too valuable for Cleveland to deal at the moment. Despite having Hagadone, Allen, and potentially CC Lee and Haley down the line, that would be quite a burden on them if Pestano and Perez were both moved.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby daingean » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:34 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:First, I get it -- Vinnie Pestano is a very effective relief pitcher and is inexpensive. He's valuable.

However, I don't see what he does for this team. If the Indians are going to trade Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo Choo, they are basically conceding that 2013 won't be a good team, nor will the 2014 team. I know some people think this team, which was 5th worst in MLB last year, can trade Cabrera and Choo and still contend, but that's extremely unlikely. Bad teams that trade their best players very seldom turn into good teams.

Pestano is good now and he's got a history of arm injuries. He's cheap and very tradeable at the moment. He's just going to get more expensive in coming years and why does an uncompetitive team the next two years need him? I say get rid of him while he's still tradeable. Middle relievers are extremely volatile year-to-year; he's a good sell high candidate and this team doesn't really need him if Choo and Cabrera are going to be traded.

You can get a good young player for a good, cheap middle reliever. Who can forget trading Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon right before Rincon turned into a pumpkin?


I don't see anyone on the roster that would be untouchable. I will say that I think the FO thinks all they need to do is retool to compete (and in this division anything can happen). Now there are some guys that I'd have to be completely knocked over to deal (iike Kipnis, Chiz, Paulino & Lindor). One thing I don't want is more prospects at A ball (and AA ball now that we have guys graduating to Akron). I'd take secondary guys that are like SP, 1B or RF for A ball but not primary returns. As for Pestano, I would want a return that is a clear win for the Tribe.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:53 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:First, I get it -- Vinnie Pestano is a very effective relief pitcher and is inexpensive. He's valuable.

However, I don't see what he does for this team. If the Indians are going to trade Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo Choo, they are basically conceding that 2013 won't be a good team, nor will the 2014 team. I know some people think this team, which was 5th worst in MLB last year, can trade Cabrera and Choo and still contend, but that's extremely unlikely. Bad teams that trade their best players very seldom turn into good teams.

Pestano is good now and he's got a history of arm injuries. He's cheap and very tradeable at the moment. He's just going to get more expensive in coming years and why does an uncompetitive team the next two years need him? I say get rid of him while he's still tradeable. Middle relievers are extremely volatile year-to-year; he's a good sell high candidate and this team doesn't really need him if Choo and Cabrera are going to be traded.

You can get a good young player for a good, cheap middle reliever. Who can forget trading Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon right before Rincon turned into a pumpkin?


Unfortunately Jon Hart no longer runs a MLB team though...

I agree that Pestano shouldn't be untouchable, but he may not be a middle reliever this year, may be our closer. If he does become our closer, gets off to a hot start..he could have twice the value he currently has at the deadline. He'd be a closer making league min with 3 more years of controllability left. Again though, still wouldnt need to trade him. Sure if you deal Choo and Cabrera you're probably writing off 2013 and 2014...but Pestano can be around in 2015 and 2016 still. Saying he'd have no use is kind of like saying Brantley has no use.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:59 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Another one of these 'convoluted' trade ideas.. this one seems pretty good for a number of reasons:

...post by ESPN.com's Dave Schoenfield suggested a different AL West home for Upton: The Seattle Mariners. Here is Schoenfield's idea on a proposed three-team trade, via his November 23 post titled, "Five Blockbuster Trade Suggestions:

-Arizona Diamondbacks get: SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RHP Vinnie Pestano and OF Michael Saunders
-Cleveland Indians get: RHP Trevor Bauer, LHP Danny Hultzen and RHP Hector Noesi
-Seattle Mariners get: receive RF Justin Upton and OF Shin-Soo Choo...


The only changes that could be suggested involve the M's and Indians due mainly to the amount of money already invested by the M's. The M's have invested a HUGE amount of money ($ 6.35 MM signing bonus) acquiring Danny Hultzen in the June entry draft. The M's REALLY like him (and should). Hector Noesi is another one of these bullpen/spot starter tweeners that never seem to achieve a defined role and eventually become "expendable". From the Indians vantage point, Noesi should be eliminated from the trade, altogether. In addition to sacrificing Danny Hultzen, the Indians would send Ezequiel Carrera to the M's to provide an adequate lead off hitter and defensive replacement for the pending loss of Goot, or as follows:

The guys that would replace Noesi and Hultzen from the M's include one of James Paxton or Brandon Maurer. (Both of these guys are rated as lower prospects or as an undervalued replacement for Danny Hultzen) the return of old friend Franklyn Gutierrez to our wigwam and both Stefen Romero & Stephen Pryor.

So, at the end of the day, the final three way convoluted and unlikely to happen trade would be:

-Diamondbacks get: SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RHP Vinnie Pestano and OF Michael Saunders
-Indians get: RHP Trevor Bauer, LHP James Paxton, RHP Stephen Pryor, CF Franklyn Gutierrez, & 3B Stefen Romero
-Mariners get: receive RF Justin Upton, OF Shin-Soo Choo, OF Ezequiel Carrera

Thoughts on the original trade (which i prefer over the second version as it's cleaner, but, less likely w/ the inclusion of Hultzen by the M's) and the second trade?


Personally, I would be opposed to any deal that includes Vinnie Pestano. If a pathetic team can have an untouchable; he's as close as there is to being one.


Santana and Kipnis are (or should) be way, way more untouchable than Pestano IMO...


Not a huge fan of this 3-team deal. Bauer and Paxton are two very nice, young arms but not sure why the Tribe would be that interested in bringing back Franklin (with an 'i') Gutierrez. He has struggled with injuries and hasn't hit all that well. Will make $7M this year (about what Choo will make) and could be a free agent as there's a decent chance his option for 2014 would get declined if he hits like he has. Love his defense still and always liked him when he was with Cleveland but not the bat I'd want. Pushes Brantley to LF, which is good defensively but not a lot of power coming from CF/LF then. Also think calling Carrera an adequate leadoff guy is a pretty big stretch, more like an ok 4th OFer.
Last edited by Hermie13 on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby OhioBaseball » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:40 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:First, I get it -- Vinnie Pestano is a very effective relief pitcher and is inexpensive. He's valuable.

However, I don't see what he does for this team. If the Indians are going to trade Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo Choo, they are basically conceding that 2013 won't be a good team, nor will the 2014 team. I know some people think this team, which was 5th worst in MLB last year, can trade Cabrera and Choo and still contend, but that's extremely unlikely. Bad teams that trade their best players very seldom turn into good teams.

Pestano is good now and he's got a history of arm injuries. He's cheap and very tradeable at the moment. He's just going to get more expensive in coming years and why does an uncompetitive team the next two years need him? I say get rid of him while he's still tradeable. Middle relievers are extremely volatile year-to-year; he's a good sell high candidate and this team doesn't really need him if Choo and Cabrera are going to be traded.

You can get a good young player for a good, cheap middle reliever. Who can forget trading Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon right before Rincon turned into a pumpkin?


Unfortunately Jon Hart no longer runs a MLB team though...

I agree that Pestano shouldn't be untouchable, but he may not be a middle reliever this year, may be our closer. If he does become our closer, gets off to a hot start..he could have twice the value he currently has at the deadline. He'd be a closer making league min with 3 more years of controllability left. Again though, still wouldnt need to trade him. Sure if you deal Choo and Cabrera you're probably writing off 2013 and 2014...but Pestano can be around in 2015 and 2016 still. Saying he'd have no use is kind of like saying Brantley has no use.


Pestano under control until 2016 isn't as great as it sounds. He's going to to be getting some considerable raises in the coming years. Look at Chris Perez; he's under Cleveland control through 2014 and regardless of his antics, Indians fans are ready to boot him out of town. He's going to get about $7MM next year and at that price, he's really not all that valuable to the Indians.

If you insert Pestano into the closer's role in 2013 and assume he keeps the position through 2014 (saving presumably worthless games for a .500 at best team), he's going to get a lot of money in 2015 and 2016 through arbitration. Heck, he'll probably get $5MM in 2014. His marginal value is going nothing but down in the coming years -- he's going to get more money, and it's very possible he won't be as good in coming years. His velocity noticeably began to dip in the 2nd half last year (as did his effectiveness -- see August and September). These relievers can flame out real fast. I'm not expecting Pestano to explode next year; he's a good pitcher, but if the Indians are truly going to rebuild, keeping Pestano around seems like a poor use of resources in years when the team isnt expected to be contending.

These guys can get very costly in their arbitration years, and locking up relievers for years to come is a risky endeavor.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:43 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:First, I get it -- Vinnie Pestano is a very effective relief pitcher and is inexpensive. He's valuable.

However, I don't see what he does for this team. If the Indians are going to trade Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo Choo, they are basically conceding that 2013 won't be a good team, nor will the 2014 team. I know some people think this team, which was 5th worst in MLB last year, can trade Cabrera and Choo and still contend, but that's extremely unlikely. Bad teams that trade their best players very seldom turn into good teams.

Pestano is good now and he's got a history of arm injuries. He's cheap and very tradeable at the moment. He's just going to get more expensive in coming years and why does an uncompetitive team the next two years need him? I say get rid of him while he's still tradeable. Middle relievers are extremely volatile year-to-year; he's a good sell high candidate and this team doesn't really need him if Choo and Cabrera are going to be traded.

You can get a good young player for a good, cheap middle reliever. Who can forget trading Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon right before Rincon turned into a pumpkin?


Unfortunately Jon Hart no longer runs a MLB team though...

I agree that Pestano shouldn't be untouchable, but he may not be a middle reliever this year, may be our closer. If he does become our closer, gets off to a hot start..he could have twice the value he currently has at the deadline. He'd be a closer making league min with 3 more years of controllability left. Again though, still wouldnt need to trade him. Sure if you deal Choo and Cabrera you're probably writing off 2013 and 2014...but Pestano can be around in 2015 and 2016 still. Saying he'd have no use is kind of like saying Brantley has no use.


Pestano under control until 2016 isn't as great as it sounds. He's going to to be getting some considerable raises in the coming years. Look at Chris Perez; he's under Cleveland control through 2014 and regardless of his antics, Indians fans are ready to boot him out of town. He's going to get about $7MM next year and at that price, he's really not all that valuable to the Indians.

If you insert Pestano into the closer's role in 2013 and assume he keeps the position through 2014 (saving presumably worthless games for a .500 at best team), he's going to get a lot of money in 2015 and 2016 through arbitration. Heck, he'll probably get $5MM in 2014. His marginal value is going nothing but down in the coming years -- he's going to get more money, and it's very possible he won't be as good in coming years. His velocity noticeably began to dip in the 2nd half last year (as did his effectiveness -- see August and September). These relievers can flame out real fast. I'm not expecting Pestano to explode next year; he's a good pitcher, but if the Indians are truly going to rebuild, keeping Pestano around seems like a poor use of resources in years when the team isnt expected to be contending.

These guys can get very costly in their arbitration years, and locking up relievers for years to come is a risky endeavor.


One thing different with Pestano vs Perez is that Perez was Super Two guy whereas Pestano will only go to arbitration 3 times with the Tribe (or with whatever team he's with at that point). I don't know about $5M in 2014. it's possible but Perez didn't get that his 2nd time in arby. I know Pestano is much better but that may be a bit much for a guy that will have at most 1 year as a closer.

I get what you're saying and agree with some of it. But the Tribe already dealt Esmil Rogers and may move Perez. Not sure it's wise to move Pestano on top of that. Again, in the right deal I'd definitely move him but I'd push to move CP first and really don't think you move this winter. Even as a first time arby guy next year, he'd still have a lot of value especially if he makes it as a closer. Think it's a fine line...does Pestano as a setup guy with 4 years left (1 at MLB min) have more value than Pestano an All-Star closer with 3 years left? Think it's an interesting debate (one that's already been brought up). Course Pestano could bomb as a closer as well (if he even gets the chance).
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:53 pm

Twins have traded Denard Span to the Nationals for Alex Meyer.

Upton now Span....OF market could really heat up over the winter meetings....Choo possibly next to move?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:55 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:BJ Upton to the Braves

Varying reports on the terms, but I've seen 5 years for 14-15 million a year thrown out by a few writers



http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/28/braves-agree-to-terms-with-b-j-upton/

5 years $75mill.....basically the money Chipper was making....I think this is a good signing by the Braves......Still need a LF and lead off hitter......Choo for Tehran/Delgado & GilMartin?


IMO that's far too much for a guy that posted a sub .300 OBP this year. Does fill a big need in CF but man that's a lot of dough.

If we could get 2 of those 3 for Choo I'd be all for it. Seen several Braves fans suggest Tommy Hanson for Choo which I find interesting. Velocity drop is concerning but if healthy is a very good #2 starter.


I like the Upton signing....yes it may be a little steep but he's 27 and just entering his prime. 28 HR's from a CF with GG potential plus he's RH (which the Braves also need with Uggla not being that middle of the order kind of guy you want).

I think Braves fans are looking for a way to get rid of Hanson but I am not sure Wren is one of them. Certainly, his recent injuries were perplexing for Brave fans especially when nothing was really said was the issue. I'd rather get Tehran and Gilmartin.


27 years old, 28 HRs from a CF with GG defense, RH....are we talking about BJ Upton here or Vernon Wells circa 2006?

I definitely don't think this deal is anywhere near as bad as that one but I could easily see Upton struggling just as much as Wells has. Just because a guy is entering his prime doesn't mean they are primed to take off. Wells was better than Upton thru his 27 year old season. Definitely could work out for the Braves, though personally think they would have been much better off signing Swisher and trading for a guy like Span with one of their young pitchers.

For me it'd depend on Hanson's health. Tehran's struggles this year would worry me. I know the Braves were tweaking his delivery and such but he too had a drop in velocity. I like Gilmartin a lot but consensus seems to be his ceiling is a #4...though seen scouts say his floor is a #5. Would be a nice lefty to add to the rotation. Would be a nice haul for Choo but Hanson if healthy has Ace potential and even though you'd have him less I'd prefer him. Though odds are he wouldn't be offered for Choo.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby daingean » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:29 pm

Hermie13 wrote:


27 years old, 28 HRs from a CF with GG defense, RH....are we talking about BJ Upton here or Vernon Wells circa 2006?

I definitely don't think this deal is anywhere near as bad as that one but I could easily see Upton struggling just as much as Wells has. Just because a guy is entering his prime doesn't mean they are primed to take off. Wells was better than Upton thru his 27 year old season. Definitely could work out for the Braves, though personally think they would have been much better off signing Swisher and trading for a guy like Span with one of their young pitchers.

For me it'd depend on Hanson's health. Tehran's struggles this year would worry me. I know the Braves were tweaking his delivery and such but he too had a drop in velocity. I like Gilmartin a lot but consensus seems to be his ceiling is a #4...though seen scouts say his floor is a #5. Would be a nice lefty to add to the rotation. Would be a nice haul for Choo but Hanson if healthy has Ace potential and even though you'd have him less I'd prefer him. Though odds are he wouldn't be offered for Choo.[/quote]

Fair points.

About Hanson, the real telling point is if the Braves offer him to you. If they do, then the Braves think Hanson is on the downside (or won't get back to his #1/#2 level). If they don't offer him then that means they still value Hanson. Just because the fans are down on Hanson does not mean the team is. The Braves value pitching and have some of the best pitching evaluators in the business. Vetran pitchers the Braves have traded have usually done the Javier Vazquez drop but some of the minor league pitchers they've traded have had success (i.e. Feliz, Harrison, Wainwright...). When dealing with the Braves, I'd rather deal for one of their minor league pitchers than
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:50 am

Hermie13 wrote:Twins have traded Denard Span to the Nationals for Alex Meyer.

Upton now Span....OF market could really heat up over the winter meetings....Choo possibly next to move?


Good move for Washington, potentially for the Twinkies too. Span has 2 years of control left over Choo's final year. Will be interesting to see if Choo can bring a return similar.
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:01 am

Choo was a pretty good 'match' for the needs of the Nationals outfield. With the acquisition of Span, that's no longer the case. Choo's value will remain pretty good, but not with the Nats.. This trade does open the possibility of another Indian as a potential trade partner. That is, does the trading for Denard Span by the Nationals change things for the Indians?. Span will start and play CF every day for the Nats. This would move Bryce Harper from CF to LF where he will start and play every day. This would move Michael Morse from LF to 1B. With the pending loss of Adam Laroche to the Red Sox, Michael Morse will become the Nats starting 1B and play every day. This leaves Tyler Moore, a solid 1B candidate without a starting spot. The Nats only remaining need appears to be a 'better' starting pitcher than the usual # 4 / # 5 and perhaps some bench help. The Nats have a few very interesting prospects in the minors including position players Anthony Rendon (22, 3B), Eury Perez (22, OF) and Michael Taylor (21, OF) and pitchers Lucas Giolito and Matt Purkey, both coming into the 2013 season with health issues supposedly in their rear view mirrors, but, unproven.

While it's been stated by several posters on this site, a return for trading Justin Masterson has to be solidly in favor of the Indians in the long term, but, perhaps, not quite so clearly in favor of the Indians in the short term (at least that's my read). Do the Indians have a "chat" with the Nats about a possible return of one or several prospects for Justin Masterson ? Do the Nats see the 2013 season as "THEIR YEAR" to go for it with the acquisition of a very affordable SP like Justin Masterson as their # 4 / # 5 SP ?
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Re: MLB Hot Stove

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:36 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:BJ Upton to the Braves

Varying reports on the terms, but I've seen 5 years for 14-15 million a year thrown out by a few writers



http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/28/braves-agree-to-terms-with-b-j-upton/

5 years $75mill.....basically the money Chipper was making....I think this is a good signing by the Braves......Still need a LF and lead off hitter......Choo for Tehran/Delgado & GilMartin?


IMO that's far too much for a guy that posted a sub .300 OBP this year. Does fill a big need in CF but man that's a lot of dough.

If we could get 2 of those 3 for Choo I'd be all for it. Seen several Braves fans suggest Tommy Hanson for Choo which I find interesting. Velocity drop is concerning but if healthy is a very good #2 starter.


I like the Upton signing....yes it may be a little steep but he's 27 and just entering his prime. 28 HR's from a CF with GG potential plus he's RH (which the Braves also need with Uggla not being that middle of the order kind of guy you want).

I think Braves fans are looking for a way to get rid of Hanson but I am not sure Wren is one of them. Certainly, his recent injuries were perplexing for Brave fans especially when nothing was really said was the issue. I'd rather get Tehran and Gilmartin.


Upton has mad skills and talent......but the guy has basically been a league average player for FOUR straight years. I don't know why people think he is suddenly going to be more going forward. Big overpay for a guy like him.
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