Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

by **GoTribe028** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:56 pm

I know the prospect fantasy is a fun day for some around here, Chris Antonetti being quoted as saying he did not make this trade with the idea of trading Cabrera...we shall see

And apparently Yan Gomes came recommended by new pen coach Kevin Cash who scouted him while working with Toronto last year.

by **ironmike** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:45 pm

Not impressed with either player, poor BB-K ratio, Aviles doesn't have great range and won't be replacing Cabrera. Yan G played at Triple A Las Vegas, he has power but so did Shelly Duncan, when the pitch was in his wheelhouse, it if wasn't he had no chance. Thin air, hot weather in Vegas and numbers can be skewed.

Fringe trade at best. They might be sorry they let Rogers go. Great arm, but then again it all comes down to evaluation a sore subject with most astute Indian fans.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:46 pm

I'd try to get Shelby Miller or Trevor Rosenthal from the Cards as well as one of Matt Adams and Oscar Taveras.

Also, I could see the Mets and Tribe matchup in a ACab deal. Something like...
ACab and Smith for Niese and Duda.
OR
ACab for Harvey OR ACab for Wheeler type deals.

My personal preference would be to land a young SP like Skaggs, Wheeler, and Harvey and a another need position OF / 1b.
My dream would be for the Tribe to land both Skaggs and Archie Bradley for ACab, but that's just a video game type deal.

by **timdav** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:11 pm

The idea that any real Indians fan wants, or would enjoy it if they would blow up the team and go through another rebuilding process is absurd.

by **GeronimoSon** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:11 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'd try to get Shelby Miller or Trevor Rosenthal from the Cards as well as one of Matt Adams and Oscar Taveras.

Also, I could see the Mets and Tribe matchup in a ACab deal. Something like...
ACab and Smith for Niese and Duda.
OR
ACab for Harvey OR ACab for Wheeler type deals.

My personal preference would be to land a young SP like Skaggs, Wheeler, and Harvey and a another need position OF / 1b.
My dream would be for the Tribe to land both Skaggs and Archie Bradley for ACab, but that's just a video game type deal.

Personally, I like the Taveras, Wacha and Adams deal the best.. Wacha should be close to the level of Skaggs Wheeler and Harvey within a year, possibly two. Your dream scenario would be sweet... Nice to see"Johnny Rain Cloud thinks the fringiness of this deal makes it skewed due to thin HOT AIR.. or was that just a coincidence? Esmil "Cy" Rodgers will be missed...

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:22 pm

This move gives the club flexibility in a number of ways. First, 2 RH bats potentially added for the lineup. Aviles can man SS, 2b, 3b, RF, LF and DH. Gomes can man 1b, C, 3b, LF and DH. Aviles gives the opportunity or potential to move ACab for a nice return. Gomes could be a bench bat with roster flexibility and could be the backup C IF the Tribe moves Santana to 1b or LF...OR...IF the Tribe trades Lou Marson who is entering his arb. yrs. just a few thoughts.

by **timdav** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:34 pm

IPI just told me on FB that the Indians probably won't trade A-Cab because doing so would be considered to be blowing up the team...and they won't blow up the team. Hope I'm paraphrasing him correctly.

Nobody WANTS them to trade Choo, C. Perez, and A-Cab...but, what choice do they have? Keep them and be a .500 team and have all 3 walk away in 2014 or 2015?

Surely they can't believe the Indians are only a couple journeymen starting pitchers away from World Series-championship caliber...can they?

Hey, if anything, we all wish that was the case. It just doesn't seem to be so.

by **GoTribe028** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:49 pm

timdav wrote:IPI just told me on FB that the Indians probably won't trade A-Cab because doing so would be considered to be blowing up the team...and they won't blow up the team. Hope I'm paraphrasing him correctly.

Nobody WANTS them to trade Choo, C. Perez, and A-Cab...but, what choice do they have? Keep them and be a .500 team and have all 3 walk away in 2014 or 2015?

Surely they can't believe the Indians are only a couple journeymen starting pitchers away from World Series-championship caliber...can they?

Hey, if anything, we all wish that was the case. It just doesn't seem to be so.

It's not just Tony saying it, Chris Antonetti said it today hes not dealing Asdrubal. The Indians have more than enough time to worry about dealing Asdrubal, it doesn't HAVE to be right now this winter. Some of the proposals I see regarding the issue as for the returns Cleveland would get are humorous.

Just because the Indians don't trade Asdrubal (or anyone for that matter) this winter doesn't mean a damn thing. The illusion is that they'll get more if they move him now with more time on his deal. In hindsight, seeing how the Indians did with their returns from Sabathia, Lee, and VMart (and Ubaldo) I don't blame them for being so eager to not deal.

I say let the next couple months play out and get a sense of which direction the Indians will go into 2013. Maybe they do deal Asdrubal. But instead of for a kings ransom of prospects that hasn't been paid since Bartolo Colon was traded, maybe they trade for James Sheilds. Not saying Tampa would do it, but you get my point.

by **OhioBaseball** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:52 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:I'd try to get Shelby Miller or Trevor Rosenthal from the Cards as well as one of Matt Adams and Oscar Taveras.

Also, I could see the Mets and Tribe matchup in a ACab deal. Something like...
ACab and Smith for Niese and Duda.
OR
ACab for Harvey OR ACab for Wheeler type deals.

My personal preference would be to land a young SP like Skaggs, Wheeler, and Harvey and a another need position OF / 1b.
My dream would be for the Tribe to land both Skaggs and Archie Bradley for ACab, but that's just a video game type deal.

Personally, I like the Taveras, Wacha and Adams deal the best.. Wacha should be close to the level of Skaggs Wheeler and Harvey within a year, possibly two. Your dream scenario would be sweet... Nice to see"Johnny Rain Cloud thinks the fringiness of this deal makes it skewed due to thin HOT AIR.. or was that just a coincidence? Esmil "Cy" Rodgers will be missed...

I'd LOVE it if the Cardinals offered Oscar Taveras by himself for Asdrubal Cabrera. Taveras is very arguably the best prospect in the minor leagues right now, and deservedly so. I don't see the Cardinals offering him if they aren't getting an impact player in return b/c Taveras' value is tremendous as a cost controlled impact player in future years. Cabrera is GOOD, but great or excellent? No.

The Cardinals have a lot of interesting young players -- I'd have to guess that Taveras is not available, though. The Indians could do quite well getting a couple young players from the Cardinals for Cabrera. I was very impressed with Rosenthal and think he's better than Miller. Matt Carpenter, Matt Adams -- those are some nice pieces, too. I really admire the Cardinals organization -- they've done a very good job drafting, signing and developing prospects the last few years.

I'd be a bit salty if the Indians traded MLB talent for Michael Wacha after they passed on him in June for what I perceive to be an inferior prospect in Naquin. I like Wacha and wish they drafted him, but I'm not sure the Indians are that big on him.

Regardless, I don't think this Aviles trade was necessarily done b/c Cabrera is as good as gone.

by **timdav** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:11 pm

Not saying the Indians should trade ANY player just for the sake of trading him. That's pretty obvious.

If they don't have the $$$$ to compete in free agency (most teams don't) and they won't trade their 2 or 3 key assets...how does their starting pitching get considerably better?

Hey, nobody wants them to win it all more than me. Just don't see the logic in their current path (other than from a business point of view).

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:16 pm

I don't think it was done bc they have a deal in place for ACab BUT I could see the Tribe getting some real nice offers that really help both sides of the deal. It may not have been done with another trade in mind but I think it will inevitably lead to another trade.
Regardless, I think the Tribe is better for making that move. Solid move can't really complain about the trade.
Btw, completely agree with those opinions on Michael Wacha, I think he could become a number 2 type starter and would have been a valuable add (re: lack of upper caliber SP) had they selected him.

by **GoTribe028** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:31 pm

timdav wrote:Not saying the Indians should trade ANY player just for the sake of trading him. That's pretty obvious.

If they don't have the $$$$ to compete in free agency (most teams don't) and they won't trade their 2 or 3 key assets...how does their starting pitching get considerably better?

Hey, nobody wants them to win it all more than me. Just don't see the logic in their current path (other than from a business point of view).

But we don't actually know which path will be taken. We assume we do, but we don't. Did anyone really think Terry Francona would be managing the Indians in 2013? Maybe they do go out and sign Dan Haren or Edwin Jackson to stabilize the rotation some and in turn Masterson rebounds and Jiminez fights for every last dollar in his contract

The Indians could still move Chris Perez opening up some payroll to be allocated elsewhere. Maybe a team gets enticed with Danny Salazar, or Jesus Aguilar and the Indians pull off a trade for a starter.

My point is there are still too many opportunities available to improve the team to question why the Indians aren't already rebuilding. And the fact that with Francona is directly tied to the Indians by the fates of Chris Antonetti and Mark Shapiro leads me to believe this is their last chance to make something work. It gives me hope they will be active and creative this winter.

by **timdav** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:06 pm

GoTribe28: IPI (Tony, I assume) replied to my post on Facebook that the Tribe acquiring Aviles might signal their willingness to trade A-Cab. He said they won't do that because if the Tribe did that, they might as well blow it up, and the Indians won't do that. His words, not mine.

He says...you build the team to win the division....and get into the playoffs. The old "just get into the playoffs and ANYTHING can happen". While technically correct, how do you go deep in the playoffs (if you even get there) if you have a marginal at best starting pitching staff?

So....if you can't significantly improve pitching through free agency (because you don't have enough budget), and you're unwilling to trade 2 or 3 key assets...how do you make trades to get a lot better in the rotation? (and that doesn't even address the offense).

Hey, maybe my 50+ years of watching baseball means nothing...but, I don't see it. Would love to be wrong.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:44 pm

I think the key is WHEN the Tribe moves ACab it will be for now help...we may have to wait until the trade deadline. Who knows maybe they ship him to TB for one of Shields, Hellickson, Wade Davis (they've coveted him for sometime but needs stretched out - pitched very well in the BP last yr) or to AZ for one of Miley, Skaggs, Bauer, Corbin, Kubel or even Parra and a spect or two could be part of another deal like I mentioned previously like ACab for Jon Niese. There's also reason to believe the Cards, Mets redSox and A's could have serious interest.
I think something gets done, but it could be the deadline before some moves are made. I think the Tribe moves CPerez this offseason and Choo and Joe Smith at the deadline - assuming they are out of it, which is highly likely.

by **ironmike** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:53 pm

Posted a list of hitters the Indians should consider this off-season earlier here are the starting pitchers:

Wei-Yin Chen - Orioles
Jeremy Hellickson - Rays
Carlos Villaneueva - Jays
Lucas Harrel - Astros ( see Harang)
Travis Blackley - A's
Ricky Nolasco - Marlins
Jon Niese - Mets
Kyle Kendrick - Phils
Jordan Zimmerman - Nats
Ross Detwiler - Nats
Travis Wood - Cubs
Marco Estrada - Brewers
Trevor Cahill - Diamonbacks
Aaron Harang - LA Dodgers (questionable at best, might not fair so well in AL)
Edinson Volquez - Padres

None of the above are number one or two starters, but we don't have the juice to trade or buy one. The list includes SP with ML experience, decent track records who MIGHT be available realistically for one of our better players and or prospects. If the Indians could get creative and get a couple of these experienced pitchers they would be on their way to improving, not contending. Regarding Hellickson, the Rays traded Garzo so it is possible they would trade a young pitcher for a starting position player.

Who are the best 3-5 on the list that fit with what we are willing to trade?

by **A.Zajac** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:57 pm

ironmike wrote:Posted a list of hitters the Indians should consider this off-season earlier here are the starting pitchers:

Wei-Yin Chen - Orioles
Jeremy Hellickson - Rays
Carlos Villaneueva - Jays
Lucas Harrel - Astros ( see Harang)
Travis Blackley - A's
Ricky Nolasco - Marlins
Jon Niese - Mets
Kyle Kendrick - Phils
Jordan Zimmerman - Nats
Ross Detwiler - Nats
Travis Wood - Cubs
Marco Estrada - Brewers
Trevor Cahill - Diamonbacks
Aaron Harang - LA Dodgers (questionable at best, might not fair so well in AL)
Edinson Volquez - Padres

None of the above are number one or two starters, but we don't have the juice to trade or buy one. The list includes SP with ML experience, decent track records who MIGHT be available realistically for one of our better players and or prospects. If the Indians could get creative and get a couple of these experienced pitchers they would be on their way to improving, not contending. Regarding Hellickson, the Rays traded Garzo so it is possible they would trade a young pitcher for a starting position player.

Who are the best 3-5 on the list that fit with what we are willing to trade?

Bolded who I would want out of that. My #1 on that list is Zimmerman, though I think he's the least likely. Nolasco is inconsistent and can give up runs in bunches when he's off. My #4 would be Neise.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:35 pm

Villanueva is a FA, wants to be a SP but has been used largely as a reliever at times. I could see him getting a 1 yr with an option for about $5 M. I don't think he's more than a 3/4 starter at best. He could be useful though and motivated.

A few other names who could be on the Tribes radar that I think may fall into the $5-$8 M range (or cheaper) are as follows:

Jeremy Guthrie
Joe Sanders
Joe Blanton
Brandon McCarthy
Francisco Liriano
Roy Oswalt
Ryan Dempster

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilty that the Tribe makes a move for a young controllable arm in a trade.

by **BrianM** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:52 pm

ironmike wrote:Posted a list of hitters the Indians should consider this off-season earlier here are the starting pitchers:

Wei-Yin Chen - Orioles
Jeremy Hellickson - Rays
Carlos Villaneueva - Jays
Lucas Harrel - Astros ( see Harang)
Travis Blackley - A's
Ricky Nolasco - Marlins
Jon Niese - Mets
Kyle Kendrick - Phils
Jordan Zimmerman - Nats
Ross Detwiler - Nats
Travis Wood - Cubs
Marco Estrada - Brewers
Trevor Cahill - Diamonbacks
Aaron Harang - LA Dodgers (questionable at best, might not fair so well in AL)
Edinson Volquez - Padres

None of the above are number one or two starters, but we don't have the juice to trade or buy one. The list includes SP with ML experience, decent track records who MIGHT be available realistically for one of our better players and or prospects. If the Indians could get creative and get a couple of these experienced pitchers they would be on their way to improving, not contending. Regarding Hellickson, the Rays traded Garzo so it is possible they would trade a young pitcher for a starting position player.

Who are the best 3-5 on the list that fit with what we are willing to trade?

This is actually a pretty good list. Zimmerman and Chen are the only ones who fall into the 'no way' category, and there are quite a few logical choices in here. Hellickson, Cahill, and Niese would all interest me, but will probably have the highest price tags of the bunch. Detwiler and Kendrick may be a little cheaper, but I like both of them too. Harrel is also a name I would consider, but I dont know why Houston would look to sell him. If the FO built a list of potential pitchers to inquire about, most of the guys you mentioned would probably be on that list.

by **GoTribe028** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:54 pm

timdav wrote:GoTribe28: IPI (Tony, I assume) replied to my post on Facebook that the Tribe acquiring Aviles might signal their willingness to trade A-Cab. He said they won't do that because if the Tribe did that, they might as well blow it up, and the Indians won't do that. His words, not mine.

He says...you build the team to win the division....and get into the playoffs. The old "just get into the playoffs and ANYTHING can happen". While technically correct, how do you go deep in the playoffs (if you even get there) if you have a marginal at best starting pitching staff?

So....if you can't significantly improve pitching through free agency (because you don't have enough budget), and you're unwilling to trade 2 or 3 key assets...how do you make trades to get a lot better in the rotation? (and that doesn't even address the offense).

Hey, maybe my 50+ years of watching baseball means nothing...but, I don't see it. Would love to be wrong.

I get where you're coming from, really. It's just that I don't agree that the Indians can't improve the rotation unless they move any or all of Cabrera, Perez, and Choo. They do have prospects in the minors that can easily be moved if the right situation presented itself. They have Chris Perez, Lou Marson, or Salazar, Aguilar, Lindor, Wolters, Paulino, Rodriguez and others to dangle out there.

I'll respectfully stand by my opinion that the Indians simply have more ways to go than just a rebuild. If they were going to rebuild they would have hired Alomar, not traded for Aviles, resign Lillibridge, traded Asdrubal for a fantasy package of prospects that will only disappoint and underwhelm most fans on here and named Juan Diaz the starter.

by **GoTribe028** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:05 pm

ironmike wrote:Posted a list of hitters the Indians should consider this off-season earlier here are the starting pitchers:

Wei-Yin Chen - Orioles
Jeremy Hellickson - Rays
Carlos Villaneueva - Jays
Lucas Harrel - Astros ( see Harang)
Travis Blackley - A's
Ricky Nolasco - Marlins
Jon Niese - Mets
Kyle Kendrick - Phils
Jordan Zimmerman - Nats
Ross Detwiler - Nats
Travis Wood - Cubs
Marco Estrada - Brewers
Trevor Cahill - Diamonbacks
Aaron Harang - LA Dodgers (questionable at best, might not fair so well in AL)
Edinson Volquez - Padres

None of the above are number one or two starters, but we don't have the juice to trade or buy one. The list includes SP with ML experience, decent track records who MIGHT be available realistically for one of our better players and or prospects. If the Indians could get creative and get a couple of these experienced pitchers they would be on their way to improving, not contending. Regarding Hellickson, the Rays traded Garzo so it is possible they would trade a young pitcher for a starting position player.

Who are the best 3-5 on the list that fit with what we are willing to trade?

Carlos Villaneueva is actually a free agent and would be just fine if the Indians took a serious look at him. He would be less costly than attempting to make a run at, say Edwin Jackson.

Jeremy Hellickson would be interesting, as well as costly. Just depends on what serious deal Tampa would be looking for. He's so young and still cheap which is why I don't see it really.

Jon Niese is sort of a personal favorite of mine. He just seems like if he stays healthy, he'll keep developing into a really good starter to help anchor the middle of your rotation. (fun note: newly acquired Yan Gomes absolutely SMASHED Niese for his first ML home run early this past season).

by **timdav** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:32 am

Without enough significant starting pitching as a foundation...most MLBB teams won't win a World Series.

Just getting to a division title with a mediocre team with huge holes then wishing and hoping your team gets hot at just the right time simply isn't a real plan to win a ring. But, it may be the only viable plan 25 of the 30 big league teams are likely to follow due to revenue levels.

by **ironmike** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:47 am

Agree, Nolasco is iffy at best, but we are so poor in SP category. The Indians always say they need 8 SP's going into the season. Nolasco should be a last resort along with a few others like Harang.

by **GeronimoSon** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:05 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Hmmm... Where will ACab land now?

Arizona? Other players {than Skaggs, Davidson & Chafin} to consider from the DBax should include Gerardo Parra as an immediately ready ML OF'er, Ryan Wheeler, Jake Barrett and David Holmberg. It would be a huge haul to acquire Tyler Skaggs Matt Davidson, & Gerardo Parra for Droobs.

Oakland? In addition to Chris Carter as an immediately available ML 1B, the Indians may consider Brad Peacock, The Michael's Choice & Taylor, Grant Green, Sonny Gray, and Blake Hassebrock. Brad Peacock with the Michael's would be su-weet, however, it wouldn't be a bad trade if one of them were replaced with Chris Carter..

Boston? Would represent what might be an odd trading partner. The previous history with Tito has to have some play in the decisions, however, trades with the Red Sox almost have to be "REALLY BIG TIME DEALS" for it to make sense for them as well as the Indians. That said, I doubt any trades come to pass here. If the Indians were willing to add Shin-soo Choo (and perhaps David Huff) to the trade with Asdrubal to the Red Sox, then their version of the "Killer B's" may suffice to satisfy both teams. Maybe not & probably not. The Red Sox would be getting an OF'er with a one year contract, two years of Droobs, their new SS that is better than anyone they've had since Nomar Garciaparra, and a LHSP that may or may not pan out.. For this trio of tribesman, the Indians would receive Xander Bogaerts, Matt Barnes and and possibly anyone one of Jackie Bradley, Bryce Brentz, Brandon Workman and or Brandon Jacobs. Personally, I'd prefer Henry Owens as the add in.

NY Mets? Other than Zach Wheeler as a potential FOR SP, the Mets are a team that the Indians should avoid. No one on their currently ML roster or their minor league system interests me.

St Louis Cardinal: Droobs would be a great fit here. Peter Kozma wasn't what the red birds had in mind going into the NLCS and they paid for it. The Cards have several prospects and players than are of signicant interest including Matt Adams, Michael Wacha, and Oscar Taveras. Those three and several others would be fine additions to the Indians system. Both Adams and Taveras are ML read right now and would be under team control for six plus years...

I'm hoping this is a move prior to another like...
ACab for Skaggs, Davidson & Chafin.

The real question is: Can the Indians count on Aviles to be an everyday SS?. In the past, he's really had very few chances to be that.. He does have some very good splits, especially against left handed pitching. I.D.K. at this stage if the Indians believe Juan Diaz can handle a platoon situation at SS where he faces RHP's or if what CA stated: " I have no intention of trading Asdrubal Cabrera.."

That said.. another team that could be looking strongly at acquiring Adrubal could be the Pittsburgh Pirates. They have a tremendous grouping of young prospects and near ml ready prospects that could be of interest to the Indians. One thing would be certain, James Taillon and Gerit Cole, Starling Marte and Josh Bell would be off limits.. but, two or three of Luis Heredia, Gregory Polanco, Clay Holmes and Alen Hanson could be in play..

by **Rocky55** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:12 am

timdav wrote:Without enough significant starting pitching as a foundation...most MLBB teams won't win a World Series.

Just getting to a division title with a mediocre team with huge holes then wishing and hoping your team gets hot at just the right time simply isn't a real plan to win a ring. But, it may be the only viable plan 25 of the 30 big league teams are likely to follow due to revenue levels.

Agree Tim. That's why I believe we should target young guys like Matt Harvey & Tyler Skaggs, on teams with lots of pitching and/or the wherewithall to buy some. It may not be possible, but I'd find out what the Mets want(Choo++ maybe, check out their OF) for Harvey. That's a future #1 Starter to me, & trading is the only way The Tribe gets one, short of being lucky/astute enough to draft one. I like Tyler Skaggs a lot, plus he's a LHP, which we need, but he has some finishing off to do. He has the talent to be a #1 SP but he isn't there yet. Matt Harvey is ready now. Of course, if we can get both of them...

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:05 pm

Rocky, I think you're dead on. The Tribe needs an heir and a spare. I've always believed when you need something fill the need and have a backup. If the Tribe could pull off a deal for a young talented now arm IT HAS TO. The only way this team seriously competes if it has a good lineup and better FOR, 2 guys that would solidify the 1, 2 over several yrs would be ideal.
Harvey, Wheeler from the Mets would be two ideal targets with the hope of landing one. Skaggs is another armI could see becoming a very solid two and the Dbax have Trevor Bauer whom the Tribe reported had interest in too. I'm not sure Bauer is ever more than a two, but he's an interesting arm.

by **OhioBaseball** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:26 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Rocky, I think you're dead on. The Tribe needs an heir and a spare. I've always believed when you need something fill the need and have a backup. If the Tribe could pull off a deal for a young talented now arm IT HAS TO. The only way this team seriously competes if it has a good lineup and better FOR, 2 guys that would solidify the 1, 2 over several yrs would be ideal.
Harvey, Wheeler from the Mets would be two ideal targets with the hope of landing one. Skaggs is another armI could see becoming a very solid two and the Dbax have Trevor Bauer whom the Tribe reported had interest in too. I'm not sure Bauer is ever more than a two, but he's an interesting arm.

Matt Harvey is a stud. He was extremely impressive in MLB this year -- the Mets developed him well. If the Indians have something like that on the table they should take it, but I doubt its being offered. Cabrera and Choo are both good players with obvious trade value, but not the type you give up top young, impact players for. Maybe if the Indians dealt both guys, or maybe one team falls deeply in need at some point over the next 6 months.

It's just disappointing that the Indians have to trade MLB talent to build their farm system. Other teams draft, sign and develop prospects themselves. The Indians need to excel at developing otherwise this is going to be a never ending cycle of trading for other teams' prospects.

by **BrianM** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:10 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Rocky, I think you're dead on. The Tribe needs an heir and a spare. I've always believed when you need something fill the need and have a backup. If the Tribe could pull off a deal for a young talented now arm IT HAS TO. The only way this team seriously competes if it has a good lineup and better FOR, 2 guys that would solidify the 1, 2 over several yrs would be ideal.
Harvey, Wheeler from the Mets would be two ideal targets with the hope of landing one. Skaggs is another armI could see becoming a very solid two and the Dbax have Trevor Bauer whom the Tribe reported had interest in too. I'm not sure Bauer is ever more than a two, but he's an interesting arm.

Matt Harvey is a stud. He was extremely impressive in MLB this year -- the Mets developed him well. If the Indians have something like that on the table they should take it, but I doubt its being offered. Cabrera and Choo are both good players with obvious trade value, but not the type you give up top young, impact players for. Maybe if the Indians dealt both guys, or maybe one team falls deeply in need at some point over the next 6 months.

It's just disappointing that the Indians have to trade MLB talent to build their farm system. Other teams draft, sign and develop prospects themselves. The Indians need to excel at developing otherwise this is going to be a never ending cycle of trading for other teams' prospects.

Yes. This. Support. Agree. Concur.

As much as I would love for us to land an ace caliber SP, I agree that what we have to give will not get us what we want. The best we can hope for is acquiring a player like Archie Bradley who is further away from the bigs than guys like Harvey, Bauer, Cole, Skaggs, Miller, etc.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:35 pm

IDK,
I can see the Tribe pulling off ACab and Marson OR Choo and Marson... for something like Duda and Wheeler (Mets).

OR

I could see ACab and Marson OR Hannahan bringing back... Parra and Skaggs OR Parra and Bauer (Dbax).

Btw, I completely agree the HAS TO DRAFT AND DEVELOP their own FOR SP. I'm not talking one in the pipeline they need at least 2 FOR arms NOW and need to have several others w/ that potential in the pipeline.

by **Rocky55** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:34 pm

BrianM wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Rocky, I think you're dead on. The Tribe needs an heir and a spare. I've always believed when you need something fill the need and have a backup. If the Tribe could pull off a deal for a young talented now arm IT HAS TO. The only way this team seriously competes if it has a good lineup and better FOR, 2 guys that would solidify the 1, 2 over several yrs would be ideal.
Harvey, Wheeler from the Mets would be two ideal targets with the hope of landing one. Skaggs is another armI could see becoming a very solid two and the Dbax have Trevor Bauer whom the Tribe reported had interest in too. I'm not sure Bauer is ever more than a two, but he's an interesting arm.

Matt Harvey is a stud. He was extremely impressive in MLB this year -- the Mets developed him well. If the Indians have something like that on the table they should take it, but I doubt its being offered. Cabrera and Choo are both good players with obvious trade value, but not the type you give up top young, impact players for. Maybe if the Indians dealt both guys, or maybe one team falls deeply in need at some point over the next 6 months.

It's just disappointing that the Indians have to trade MLB talent to build their farm system. Other teams draft, sign and develop prospects themselves. The Indians need to excel at developing otherwise this is going to be a never ending cycle of trading for other teams' prospects.

Yes. This. Support. Agree. Concur.

As much as I would love for us to land an ace caliber SP, I agree that what we have to give will not get us what we want. The best we can hope for is acquiring a player like Archie Bradley who is further away from the bigs than guys like Harvey, Bauer, Cole, Skaggs, Miller, etc.

First thing is that although I agree with OB re the fact we need to excel at prospect development/drafting, I wouldn't consider trading for "Harvey, Bauer, Cole, Skaggs, Miller, etc" a trade for prospects. These are ML players & would be for us. As far as a team falling deeply in need:

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/clevelan ... road-ahead

Note the date. This is the first mention (admittedly specultive) I read of a possible Cabrera trade. I referred to it in a post the following day. Kevin Towers doesn't mention Cabrera & I'm sure AZ could go another route but the fit seems to be there.

I don't see Shelby Miller coming this way because I don't think the Cards need anything. What a franchise.

As far as Harvey goes, and I agree that he's the highest upside target, what might the Mets say to Choo + Lindor + Smith? As noted earlier, their OF sucks (main reason I don't see Duda coming back in any trade). Of course they could just sign FA OF's. Wheeler is rated almost as highly as Harvey so if we get either one it wouldn't leave their cupboard bare. Wheeler wouldn't bring them Choo + Lindor + Smith though. At least I hope not.

How would a healthy Carrasco + Harvey as our 1 & 2 look next season?

by **GeronimoSon** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:07 am

Interesting market continues to evolve for the SS spot.. The Tigers took a look at the FA market for SS's and decided that $ 6 MM for Jhonny Peralta was a pretty good deal (sound familiar?). Steven Drew was politely told "..no thank you.." for his one year option, however, the A's continue to talk with him.. The Boston Red Sox, prior to the hiring of John Farrell have anointed Jose Iglesias as their starting SS after demoting him in favor of Mike Aviles.. Zack Meisel, MLB claimed: "..any team seeking a... shortstop... might be better served exploring a trade..." Other interesting (perhaps) tidbits from around the ML's regarding the direction of teams that may dovetail into a speculative Indians trade:

Dbax: CEO/Pres. Derrick Hall. "..more help is needed on the left side {SS & 3B} of the infield, and that there's "an abundance of players" remaining in the Arizona Diamondbacks outfield..." AR

Brewers: GM Doug Melvin will be operating with a reduced payroll in 2013 and he's discouraged by "the money bullpen guys are getting" in free agency opening the door to possible acquisition by trade.. MJS

Pirates: .."to fill the rotation void, Pittsburgh prefers veteran innings-eaters,," Biertempfel PTR

Cardinals: ".. prospect Kolten Wong is the team's future at the position....Stephen Drew and Jeff Keppinger remain options for next season while the 22-year-old develops..." StLPD

While there has been plenty of speculation about the DBax, Pirates and Cardinals, The Brewers remain a team that is similar in Market size and approach to team building with the Indians. The Brewers also have two very specific needs for the team in 2013: Shortstop (where they have completely unproven Jean Segura, acquired as part of the trade with the Angels for Zack Greinke) and RP's. The Brewers have at least two possible F.O.R. to good to very good # 2 type SP prospects in Taylor Youngman and Johnny Hellweg. The Brewers also have a couple of other players that could be "interesting" additions.. such as Hunter Morris, a ML ready 1B, and, the previously mentioned Jean Segura. The Indians might be willing to discuss a trade of either Shin-soo Choo (moving Norichika Aoki to CF) and/or Asdrubal Cabrera and/or one of the bullpen arms (Pestano/Cody Allen) for some of these prospects... Where there's smoke..

by **homerawayfromhome** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:25 am

Here's a link on how the TB Rays built their pitching...

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... petersburg

Here's another link on the mkt strategy of the A's and Rays...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=18128

BTW, these are both old articles some of you may have already read them, but they go right along with the discussion:
they have to build a strong rotation.

by **GeronimoSon** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:32 am

Homer.. good article.. offers a lot of insight into the "luck" factor as it relates to the building of a franchise. Four MLB players on the Rays roster since 2008 speaks volumes:

...One criticism sometimes leveled against the Rays and their recent success is the boatload of high draft picks they collected when they were awful. Without that crutch, they wouldn't be nearly as good, the charge goes. Tampa Bay has in fact accumulated a bunch of top-10, even top-five picks in its relatively brief franchise history. But only four, Price, Longoria, Niemann, and Upton, have made significant contributions to the Rays' success since 2008...

Notably, Cody Allen, Drew Pomeranz, Alex White, Jason Kipnis, and Lonnie Chisenhall have made their way to the ML's and are staying..Without a doubt, there are several more coming.. One SP, two RP's, a 2B and a 3B.. not all that much different as far as quantity is concerned, however, quality is another matter..

by **homerawayfromhome** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:33 am

There is always the possibility one of these teams go to the international mkt in hopes of filling the need.

Hiroyuki Nakajima, SS: Now a free agent, Nakajima will return as a 30-year-old shortstop in a market bereft of them. After not signing with the Yankees last season following a posting auction, Nakajima should find plenty of interest, even though the small-sample track record for Japanese shortstops – Kaz Matsui and Tsuyoshi Nishioka are among the two biggest busts here – is ugly. (Jeff Passan - Yahoo Sports) - Ranked him the 44 th best FA on the mkt.

I get the talk that Aviles will be a super UT type for the Tribe, it makes sense. CA also said that ACab would start in 2013. The fact is the Tribe now has depth on the ML level at the position they didn't have prior. The Tribe simply can't afford top of the rotation arms in FA and has no other choice IMO but to flip ACab or Choo for pitching.

I also agree with those who throw out- the key is to develop your own talent, I'm completely on board with that, but the Tribe lacks that talent now and has to figure out a way to add both now talent and prospects.

by **GeronimoSon** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:05 pm

Developing talent is more than fine, it's essential.. The Indians have to take some risks with high upside kids to get there.. Drafting Lucas Giolito & not Tyler Naquin would send that message.. If the Indians are going to go with a 'safer' (due to signability/financial reserving) pick, then the "money saved" for the later guys has to be right and have HIGH UPSIDE Arms:

Mitch Brown: Brown has a ML pitchers body and a chance to be solid & projects to be a # 3 to # 4 type starter as a ML'er. While his fastball may be his best pitch has touched 95, it grades out as average to above average. None of his other pitches (cut fastball, good change up and a developing slurve) will not grade out as plus pitches. He has shown the ability to consistently throw strikes with all four of his mostly average pitches.

Kieran Lovegrove: Lovegrove throws a straight fastball that stays at 90 - 92, touches 94 MPH. His two secondary offerings, a slider and change are somewhat inconsistent but have a chance to develop. He has had some minor injury issues, so his durability remains a concern.

Do these two guys (and the scouting reports) represent the high upside that the Indians are looking for based upon the new CBA and the fiscal restraints involved?. really? A low 90's FB throwing prospect that has inconsistent secondaries and a solid middle of the roation type SP.. really?.. These are the high upside guys that were selected when the Indians passed on Giolito (for the safer higher floor, lower season, next Aaron Crowe)??.

Drafting isn't the only path.. it's the riskiest.. The 2012 draft could go down as one of the WORST due the strategy imparted. The Indians should NEVER EVER pass on a front of the rotation starter.. even if they have seven of them at each level of the minor leagues..

by **homerawayfromhome** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:02 pm

Personally I agree the Tribe should have went either Giolito, Wacha or Stratton last yr. My personal hopes are Naquin becomes a Gerard Parra type OF that would at least warrant acknowledgement they got a solid ML qlty OF. BUT IMO they could possibly have landed the same draft with Wacha or Stratton had they went that direction. Giolito is tricky, but when you have the opportunity to add that kind of talent at some point you have to gamble.

As for Mitch Brown and Keiran Lovegrove both or neither may surpass Giolito who knows right now. Personally, even with the risk of injury with Giolito he was obviously the top talent on the board. I guess it's worth mentioning they also landed high upside DVone McClure who I think could be a Desmond Jennings type.

This upcoming draft is said to be de-void of talent for the Tribe it's simply hitting on the right pks but at the same time they have to land some high upside talent and take risks doing it. It has to come from all across the board. Aggressively identifying guys and moving for them. It's cheaper to sign amateur talent and that's the focus the Tribe should have in acq. The right talent through the draft, international mkt, and by acq. Talent through trades.

I've said it time and time again they have to think outside the box use every means available and be creative in so doing. Be willing to trade some of these core talent guys (Choo, ACab, CPerez) to land young controllable pitching. The Tribe has more avenues available than before with the added competitive lottery pk and international spending pool which are tradable. These can be used as add ins to deals to get it done.

The Tribe could also take a few gambles by trading a guy like Lou Marson for example to the Mets for Michael Fulmer straight up. My point being; be willing to gamble a little on deal for upside - that kind of deal might never happen but they need to be willing to ask for high upside talent --- even if it means waiting a few yrs for the return.

by **ironmike** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:56 pm

As posted here a few days ago in my list of suggested SP who could be available and affordable. The Indians, if they are smart, should be in on this guy and have enough juice to get it done.

Rays right-hander Jeremy Hellickson is drawing more trade interest than any other member of the Tampa Bay rotation, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports. There’s been lots of speculation surrounding James Shields, but it’s Hellickson who has been most popular in the early going of the offseason. Talks are expected to continue at the GM Meetings in California later this week, Heyman writes.

Hellickson, 25, just completed his second full season at the MLB level. He posted a 3.10 ERA with 6.4 K/9 and 3.0 BB/9 in 177 innings over the course of 31 starts. The 2011 Rookie of the Year won't be arbitration eligible until after the 2013 season and he'll remain under team control through 2016.

Hellickson has a better than average BB-K ratio and he gives up less hits than innings pitched.

by **GoTribe028** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:17 pm

ironmike wrote:As posted here a few days ago in my list of suggested SP who could be available and affordable. The Indians, if they are smart, should be in on this guy and have enough juice to get it done.

Rays right-hander Jeremy Hellickson is drawing more trade interest than any other member of the Tampa Bay rotation, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports. There’s been lots of speculation surrounding James Shields, but it’s Hellickson who has been most popular in the early going of the offseason. Talks are expected to continue at the GM Meetings in California later this week, Heyman writes.

Hellickson, 25, just completed his second full season at the MLB level. He posted a 3.10 ERA with 6.4 K/9 and 3.0 BB/9 in 177 innings over the course of 31 starts. The 2011 Rookie of the Year won't be arbitration eligible until after the 2013 season and he'll remain under team control through 2016.

Hellickson has a better than average BB-K ratio and he gives up less hits than innings pitched.

I'm ok with either. More of a real option than some of the fantasies getting tossed around here lately.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:19 pm

I'm not sure what kind of pkg it would take to land Hellickson but he would be a great start. The Tribe has reportedly been interested in Hellickson, Shields and Wade Davis for some time. That said I think Shields is the one traded this offseason, but they have the depth to move a cpl arms and not hurt the rotation.

by **GeronimoSon** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:50 pm

Matt Moore from the Rays.. I could see selling out the farm..

I don't see it with Jeremy Hellickson..

Wow, stranger than truth would be how he has performed. When you look at Hellickson's simple stats: e.g. W/L 10-11, ERA 3.10, 2:1 K:BB, 31 starts, less hits than innings pitched, 1.25 WHIP, etc.. As a starter, you say: "Wow, this guy could be an all star". But are his numbers really deserved or has he had the good fortune that seems to follow around certain players who would otherwise be average or below average on another team. When you get into his advanced stats, the one number that really stands out is an FIP of 4.6. I don't know of another starting pitcher in the Major Leagues with an FIP/ERA differential of over 1 1/2 runs.. It just doesn't happen.. Name another pitcher that comes close.. just one.. I dare you!

What is says is that Jeremy Hellickson has the ability to work his way out of jams better than Kevin Millwood during the season he won the ERA title for starting pitchers for the AL.. Hellickson makes the mess and cleans the mess. He'd be the best front of the rotation starting pitcher/front man/spokesman for TUMS that any team can dream of. He has an almost mystical ability to leave runners on base.. inning after inning.. The real question becomes.. is it because of Jeremy Hellickson's abilities or are these numbers he's posting completely out of his control. There are NUMEROUS pitchers that "pitch on the right day". Get 8 runs of support before they take the mound.. (Justin Masterson has heard rumors of this, but hasn't actually seen it for himself.. like, forever). Maybe Hellickson has been blessed to pitch on the right day for defensive wizardry by the Rays (there are so few hitting wizardry days for the Rays that it would be supernatural for him to get both defensive wizardry as well as any kind of run support.. The Rays are dreadful offensively and the reason there has been any discussions at all about trading a pitcher)..

Hellickson doesn't strike a lot of guys out.. he doesn't walk very many.. and, when he does give up a home run.. it's almost always with the bases empty.. Otherwise.. he's average to above average. Really, nothing special. Maybe the Indians could get Hellickson for less than what you'd think based on some in depth analysis of this performance.. I know it's pretty scary when you think about someone that is this young and talented.. It's almost impossible to believe that Hellickson has gotten to where he is because he's been lucky.. but he has...

by **homerawayfromhome** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:22 am

I know we've covered the Arizona Dbax and others numbs times as potential trade partners for the Tribe. We've also mentioned the Mets on numerous occasions but truthfully the Mets could be the best match for th Tribe to deal with on a number of fronts.

The Mets need RP, OF, SS and C. These are some positions wher there Tribe and Mets match up masterfully IMO. The Mets done want to add a tremendous amount of payroll and neither does the Tribe. In fact the Mets will have $41 M come off the books at the end of 2013 in Jason Bay and Johann Santana. That will definitely allow them some financial flexibility.

Here's where I think the Tribe and Mets could match up...
Choo, ACab, CPerez, Smith and Marson.

The Mets actually have some depth of SP and have been rumored to be contemplating trading Ike Davis or Lucas Duda. The Tribe could use one or both, Davis would add some thunder and solidify 1b, Duda could man 1b or RF he's not a sexy bat but would be a decent add. Furthermore there have been rumors the Mets were consiring moving Jon Niese the young controllable lefty for the right piece. The Mets also have Matt Harvey who made his presence known and also Zack Wheeler another young stud type pitcher. The Mets also have a few other talented pieces in the minors who could be had in the right deal... Familia, Cuello, Fulmer, Flores.

My point is, there are potential trade partners that could arise but there are also teams that have numerous needs and matter a factly the Tribe and Mets might just match up quite well in a larger block buster type deal. While its highly unlikely, there is the realm of possibility that both clubs at least talk and kick around a few names during the offseason. I would not be shocked to see the Tribe and Mets match up and pull something off at some point that improves both clubs.

by **BrianM** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:41 am

I would love Hellickson, but he would surely cost one of Paulino/Lindor. I would be ok with that, but I dont know which one we should value more.

They would probably want a Lindor/Allen/Aguilar package

by **Rocky55** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:13 am

Phillies might need OF or RP help. They have nobody ML ready that I want but would like to see what they'd take for Jesse Biddle and/or Cody Asche. Asche could actually get a late season look in '13 & be ready to contribute the next season. Good looking bat.

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:32 am

Rocky55 wrote:Phillies might need OF or RP help. They have nobody ML ready that I want but would like to see what they'd take for Jesse Biddle and/or Cody Asche. Asche could actually get a late season look in '13 & be ready to contribute the next season. Good looking bat.

First and foremost, the Indians have to be ready to deal just about anyone on the team to make the overall team better.. That is, the untouchable list might be Jason Kipnis & Carlos Santana and that's it.

The Phillies are a decent match with a bit of a twist.. the Phillies don't need OF help.. they need CF help. They are allegedly looking at Michael Bourn and BJ Upton and are getting "sticker shock". A player such as Michael Brantley who is a solid CF'er that gets on base, runs some, could be the answer to the Phillies needs. The Phillies also need someone to play 3B. The Phillies allowed Placido Polanco's option to expire and have Freddie Galvis as their best option for the spot even though he's never played there. The FA market for 3B's is incredibly weak, as well. Jack Hannahan may not be the long term answer for the Phillies, but he'd be fine fill in until such time as Cody Asche, the Phillies 3B of the future, is ready to assume the spot. If the Phillies were more desperate, then perhaps Lonnie Chisenhall, the Indians 3B of the future, could be the key piece in a trade. This would mean that Dorsyss Paulino would be making the transition to 3B to become the new future 3B during the coming minor league season... (yes.. this means lindor stays at SS where he belongs and wolters moves to 2B where he belongs)

The Phillies do have a couple of "upside" arms. Jesse Biddle, Trevor May and Brody Colvin. Of the three, Trevor May projects to be the candidate most likely to become a F.O.R. type starter. The Phillies also have a few more interesting SP candidates in Cloyd, Pettibone and Gueller. Trevor May could be / should be the target to be pursued in any deal with the Phillies, imho. The Phillies appeared to hit the "mother lode" during the 2008 draft. After the first round, the Phillies selected Gose, Knapp, Worely, Pettibone, and May. Pretty impressive. As far as position players are concerned, the Phillies are souring on Dom Brown as their RF'er and could be convinced to acquire a better / more consistent candidate (read: Shin-soo Choo). The Phillies are trying growing cult hero in Darin Ruf as their LF'er and will continue to do so as long as he keeps hitting. Otherwise, there isn't a lot help from the Phillies in the area of position players.

You are correct in stating the Phillies and the Indians do match up well w/r to needs and surpluses. The only question(s) that remain, which guys will be the ones that meet projections?...

by **Hermie13** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:36 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Developing talent is more than fine, it's essential.. The Indians have to take some risks with high upside kids to get there.. Drafting Lucas Giolito & not Tyler Naquin would send that message.. If the Indians are going to go with a 'safer' (due to signability/financial reserving) pick, then the "money saved" for the later guys has to be right and have HIGH UPSIDE Arms:

Mitch Brown: Brown has a ML pitchers body and a chance to be solid & projects to be a # 3 to # 4 type starter as a ML'er. While his fastball may be his best pitch has touched 95, it grades out as average to above average. None of his other pitches (cut fastball, good change up and a developing slurve) will not grade out as plus pitches. He has shown the ability to consistently throw strikes with all four of his mostly average pitches.

Kieran Lovegrove: Lovegrove throws a straight fastball that stays at 90 - 92, touches 94 MPH. His two secondary offerings, a slider and change are somewhat inconsistent but have a chance to develop. He has had some minor injury issues, so his durability remains a concern.

Do these two guys (and the scouting reports) represent the high upside that the Indians are looking for based upon the new CBA and the fiscal restraints involved?. really? A low 90's FB throwing prospect that has inconsistent secondaries and a solid middle of the roation type SP.. really?.. These are the high upside guys that were selected when the Indians passed on Giolito (for the safer higher floor, lower season, next Aaron Crowe)??.

Drafting isn't the only path.. it's the riskiest.. The 2012 draft could go down as one of the WORST due the strategy imparted. The Indians should NEVER EVER pass on a front of the rotation starter.. even if they have seven of them at each level of the minor leagues..

Disagree. If a position player is clearly a better talent you should draft him, even if you think the pitcher as FOR potential. Not saying Naquin was such a player (many guys I've have prefered) but drafting pitchers that are worse just cause they are pitchers is a bad draft philosophy IMO. And while I was high on Giolito too, that arm injury and high bonus demands scared a lot of teams off. He was a top 10 talent (according to just about everyone) even with the arm issue, so the Tribe weren't the only ones passing on him.

by **Hermie13** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:56 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
ironmike wrote:As posted here a few days ago in my list of suggested SP who could be available and affordable. The Indians, if they are smart, should be in on this guy and have enough juice to get it done.

Rays right-hander Jeremy Hellickson is drawing more trade interest than any other member of the Tampa Bay rotation, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports. There’s been lots of speculation surrounding James Shields, but it’s Hellickson who has been most popular in the early going of the offseason. Talks are expected to continue at the GM Meetings in California later this week, Heyman writes.

Hellickson, 25, just completed his second full season at the MLB level. He posted a 3.10 ERA with 6.4 K/9 and 3.0 BB/9 in 177 innings over the course of 31 starts. The 2011 Rookie of the Year won't be arbitration eligible until after the 2013 season and he'll remain under team control through 2016.

Hellickson has a better than average BB-K ratio and he gives up less hits than innings pitched.

I'm ok with either. More of a real option than some of the fantasies getting tossed around here lately.

Really don't see Hellickson as a realistic option for the Tribe. Sure we could throw Lindor and others at them and they'd likely jump all over that, but it'd be an overpay IMO. I agree with GSon here. While Hellickson's ERA has been solid his peripherals have been average at best. He made the same number of starts this year as Ubaldo...threw a thrid of an inning more. Yeah didn't give up a lot of hits but doesn't get deep into games, took a big step back in that regarad this year. I'd love having him on the Indians as he'd probably be our best starter (though not saying much), but for what the Rays will ask, he's not worth it IMO...and I don't think the Indians will feel differently. Like it or not, they are big into sabrmetrics and Hellickson is quite average in that regard.

Hellickson's WARP in 2011 was -0.3 and in 2012 was 0.7. For a comparison, Ubaldo was at 2.4 in 2011 and 0.6 in 2012. Hellickson's fWAR in 2011 was 1.4 and in 2012 was 1.0. Ubaldo's fWAR was 3.6 in 2011 and 0.2 in 2012. Should note that bWAR did like Hellickson a lot more though.

Also should be pointed out that Ubaldo actually has a better K/BB ratio than Hellickson over the last 2 seasons (1.87 vs 1.83), so not sure I'd get too excited over how "good" Hellickson is in that category. For the record, would take Hellickson over Ubaldo in a heartbeat, but just pointing out how unimpressive Hellickson's peripherals really are and why I'd be hesitant to sell the farm for him...

Personally belive the only reason the Rays would make him available is because they are looking at those numbers too...

by **Rocky55** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:03 pm

I like Biddle better than May. Similar size & stuff but Biddle is 2 yrs younger, only one level behind, more polished (IMO), quicker to MLB (IMO). May's BB rate jumped in AA & he's never been known for his command. Maybe we should target pitchers who are less of a project.

The Phillies need lots of OF help, not just CF. They are rich enough to buy it but have lots of contract baggage right now. They also expect to compete every year. An OF of Ruf, Brown, & Mayberry isn't going to cut it in Phil. Ruf is by all accounts worse than Shelley Duncan in LF. I expect one FA OF going to Phil but they need more than that. Choo is perfect for them.

Chiz would have to bring back Asche plus Biddle. The Phil won't do that but they should. Chiz is a huge breakout candidate this year, given health.

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:35 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Developing talent is more than fine, it's essential.. The Indians have to take some risks with high upside kids to get there.. Drafting Lucas Giolito & not Tyler Naquin would send that message.. If the Indians are going to go with a 'safer' (due to signability/financial reserving) pick, then the "money saved" for the later guys has to be right and have HIGH UPSIDE Arms:

Mitch Brown: Brown has a ML pitchers body and a chance to be solid & projects to be a # 3 to # 4 type starter as a ML'er. While his fastball may be his best pitch has touched 95, it grades out as average to above average. None of his other pitches (cut fastball, good change up and a developing slurve) will not grade out as plus pitches. He has shown the ability to consistently throw strikes with all four of his mostly average pitches.

Kieran Lovegrove: Lovegrove throws a straight fastball that stays at 90 - 92, touches 94 MPH. His two secondary offerings, a slider and change are somewhat inconsistent but have a chance to develop. He has had some minor injury issues, so his durability remains a concern.

Do these two guys (and the scouting reports) represent the high upside that the Indians are looking for based upon the new CBA and the fiscal restraints involved?. really? A low 90's FB throwing prospect that has inconsistent secondaries and a solid middle of the roation type SP.. really?.. These are the high upside guys that were selected when the Indians passed on Giolito (for the safer higher floor, lower season, next Aaron Crowe)??.

Drafting isn't the only path.. it's the riskiest.. The 2012 draft could go down as one of the WORST due the strategy imparted. The Indians should NEVER EVER pass on a front of the rotation starter.. even if they have seven of them at each level of the minor leagues..

Disagree. If a position player is clearly a better talent you should draft him, even if you think the pitcher as FOR potential. Not saying Naquin was such a player (many guys I've have prefered) but drafting pitchers that are worse just cause they are pitchers is a bad draft philosophy IMO. And while I was high on Giolito too, that arm injury and high bonus demands scared a lot of teams off. He was a top 10 talent (according to just about everyone) even with the arm issue, so the Tribe weren't the only ones passing on him.

Fair enough.. draft the best player available regardless of the spot. If the best player(s) project to FOR SP to position player and are otherwise close.. take the FOR SP candidate..

Even with the arm issue/contract demands.. it doesn't matter what other clubs do.. Giolito was the guy who should have been drafted knowing full well he would undergo TJ surgery.. He was still the best player available. If it was his shoulder, then I can see the reason for pause.. but that wasn't the case...

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:53 pm

Rocky55 wrote:I like Biddle better than May. Similar size & stuff but Biddle is 2 yrs younger, only one level behind, more polished (IMO), quicker to MLB (IMO). May's BB rate jumped in AA & he's never been known for his command. Maybe we should target pitchers who are less of a project.

The Phillies need lots of OF help, not just CF. They are rich enough to buy it but have lots of contract baggage right now. They also expect to compete every year. An OF of Ruf, Brown, & Mayberry isn't going to cut it in Phil. Ruf is by all accounts worse than Shelley Duncan in LF. I expect one FA OF going to Phil but they need more than that. Choo is perfect for them.

Chiz would have to bring back Asche plus Biddle. The Phil won't do that but they should. Chiz is a huge breakout candidate this year, given health.

I guess it's a matter of flavor of the moment.. Biddle is a lefty which alone gives him an advantage, however, the low 90s FB that sometimes touched 94 when he was draft disappeared by the end of his first full season (in 2011). That is, he was only able to maintain high 80s. The Phillies were so concerned, they had his shoulder MRI'd but it came back clean. It was believed to be more of a fatigue issue of him throwing as a professional for the first time. He's a kid.. he's learning. At least that's the explanation that had been profered. In 2012, his velo was back in the low 90s and he has some projection left that might allow him to get into the low to mid 90's. His curve ball and change up are good pitches but they need better separation velo on the change and better arm action on his curve ball. Biddle does throw strikes with all three of his pitches. He has that as an advantage over Trevor May. For these reasons, I think Biddle may be a tick behind Trevor May right now. That could change..

Choo is perfect for them.. more perfect than just about any other situation the Indians theoretically can find. Chiz to the Phillies would require a BIG return and I fully agree, he offers perhaps the best chance as a break out candidate of any Cleveland Indian currently on the the roster...

by **homerawayfromhome** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:17 pm

I think The Tribe and Phil's match up well, but so could the Mets. The Mets have some SP and need OF help too.

Lucas Duda had surgery to fix his broken wrist, so he is probably off the table.

by **GeronimoSon** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:46 am

The BA listing for Minor League FA's is out.. the Indians have the following on the list: (C & P'd from the list at BA)

RHP: Jose Flores (AA), Loek Van Mil (AAA)
C: Michel Hernandez (AA), Matt Pagnozzi (AAA)
2B: Carlos Rojas (AA)
3B: Jared Goedert (AAA), Tony Mansolino (SS), Ryan Rohlinger (AA)
SS: Gregorio Petit (AAA)
OF: Aaron Cunningham (AAA), Chad Huffman (AAA), Nick Weglarz (AA)

The rest of the list is: http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/pro ... ents-2012/

A lot of interesting character's are on that list. I wish BA would publish the names as links to bio's. Does anyone see a building block or two that can be had?

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