Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

[homerawayfromhome]

Just throwing this name out there...

Tyler Moore -25 yo LF/1b from the Nationals looks like an interesting bat. Mlbtraderumors mentioned him as a potential trade piece for the Nats. If they decide to hold him they could move vet Michael Morse who the Tribe should have interest in.
Moore however could be a young version of Morse and posted some solid numbers this yr.
156 AB. 41 hits. 10 hrs. 9 dbls. 3 sb. .263 BA. .327 OBP. 513 SLG. .840 OPS.

[GeronimoSon]

Guys who are DFA'd are usually for a single reason: their spot in their organization's hierarchy, be that a 40 man roster spot, or a position with a minor league club, is no longer available going forward. Trevor Crowe is an example of this kind of guy.. He could have been put onto the Indians 40 man roster, but, truth be told, this former #1 draft pick just wasn't going to progress any further within the Indians organization. It was better for him & the club to move on in other directions, apart. Lin is exactly this same guy. He was not going to progress any further in the Red Sox system, so, they let him walk. The Indians don't need guys like that. Neither do the Angels.. and they'll find that out this coming spring.. The hope that there is a diamond in the rough, has some validity, but, for all intents and purposes, is almost ALWAYS a fools errand. The next Johan Santana is not hiding out as a DFA'd cast off or minor league FA from a last place club.

I call this beating the bushes in hopes of finding a fish.. who says a bird didn't drop one in ten seconds ago?..no one..but, look anyway?..

[GeronimoSon]

Just throwing this name out there...

Tyler Moore -25 yo LF/1b from the Nationals looks like an interesting bat. Mlbtraderumors mentioned him as a potential trade piece for the Nats. If they decide to hold him they could move vet Michael Morse who the Tribe should have interest in.
Moore however could be a young version of Morse and posted some solid numbers this yr.
156 AB. 41 hits. 10 hrs. 9 dbls. 3 sb. .263 BA. .327 OBP. 513 SLG. .840 OPS.

He'd be an organizational filler with some possible upside. On the whole, this is a one dimensional player who could fill in as a role player.. At the end of the day, his only weapon, his bat, has too many holes (i.e. he K's too often)..

[criznit2009]

[*Hermie necessitated qualifier.

excellent!! Sometime good ol' Hermie just wants to be Hermie... Thx for the chuckle

So on to the post

Snatching up Francona is the 1st "good" off-season move the tribe has made in awhile. Now I don't think he would have taken the job, unless he gets to decide on quite a few things yr normal manager may not get to, or at the very least have a "heavy hand" in such things. For example like who gets called up, whether or not Antonetti agrees, trade proposals and most importantly at least for right now, what the tribe does this off-season. Speaking of the off-season

Though it is quite possible Choo gets moved over the winter, I only accept what could be consider by "experts" as an over-pay. Needs to be close to ML ready (played in AA/AAA in 2012 and will be expected to advance a level in 2013. I am thinking a solid SP prospect (a #2 on a good team) PLUS a high upside A/AA guy and some cash.

Personally I do not want to see Choo moved as of yet. Maybe at/around dealine OR if the tribe decides to continue handling the off-season like it did last year - AKA somehow manage to make your team worse... Anyway.

I like idea of signing Napoli. I also LOVE the idea of Melky in the OF. If you sign both these guys, an OF of Choo, Brantley and Cabrera looks pretty good on paper. Also Napoli at 1st/DH and as the new back up catcher looks like a nice fit. Sigining a SP of some ability is also desired but a little harder to do. A trade might have to be considered

Who do we trade?
ML - Marson (if we sign Napoli), CPerez, Acab is also a possiblity - depends on who the tribe want in return
Minors - anyone not named Paulino - yes Lindor is available for the right guy.

Adding Napoli, Cabrera (Pagan-meh but ok) and possibly Youk while ditching Pronk, Grady (minor league deal?) FBob(resign for peanuts?) would be a great start. As far as SP goes, I think it would be hard to drastically improve barring a MAJOR deal/trade but making almost any move here couldn't hurt. Ubaldo will be back I think Antonetti is scared to death that if they let him go and he goes on to have a nice 2013 season that will be the last straw and he will be fired. Unless of course the indians are in serious play off consideration then no matter what Ubaldo does, Antonetti should be safe. Tough call but I think they keep him, at least to start the season.

So thats it 2013 will REQUIRE a COMMITMENT to spending on FA's to improve the team. Shouldnt be that hard -Dlowe, -Grady, -Kotchman, -Damon -Pronk -Fbob -Ubaldo (maybe) = enough to sign someone(s) who can play everyday and bat right in the heart of the order.

This team could really improve this off-season by adding 2-3 FA's - not the type the indians usually sign, but real bonafide ML player types... 15-20 million a year for 3 players thats a start

[BrianM]

As for building the Indians, I favor the wave approach. Try to get a wave of young talent arriving at the major league level at the same time so you can keep a core of young talent together for several years before they hit free agency. IOW, a window of about three years.

Right now the Indians have what looks to be a nice wave forming for about 2015 with Lindor, Paulino, Aguilar, Mitch Brown, and a few others. My approach would be to trade Choo, Perez, and Asdrubal for high upside pitching prospects who are two years away so we get a huge wave of talent arriving about 2015 and under club control for several years after that. That's when you go after a Willingham or a Melky Cabrera.

I agree. I think we can fill holes that will give us a decent chance to compete right now, but if we go that route, I feel like we will be putting ourselves in the same position every year (needing to make trades or compete in free agency just for a CHANCE to compete). We have a few valuable pieces right now that could net us a surplus of great young talent. Teams are so reluctant to trade good major league ready players these days, so going after good low A/high A prospects may get the best deals. There is more risk with this philosophy, but we should also get more high upside players in return. In 2005-2007 we had that wave of great players acquired via trades, and we had some great seasons. Im willing to be patient if it means a 3-5 years stretch of competing.

I agree with you on trades. I could be way off, but I fully believe this new rule that allows trading of competitive balance picks is sort of a trial run of sorts that could eventually lead to the trading of more picks or allowing the trading of players that have been recently drafted.

Considering my statements above, I would love if teams were able to acquire newly drafted players via trade, and I think there is a realistic chance of this happening, but I remembering reading an article about possibly trading draft picks, and the biggest fear involving the trading of picks was that it would give amateur players to much leverage. If picks could be traded, Stephen Strasburg or Bryce Harper may have demanded that the Nats trade the pick to a large market team that could potentially sign them to a more lucrative long term deal. The fear was really of the agents, not so much the players.

[Hermie13]

Hermie, really, "bad bullpen"? Crappy old Pestano with only a 1.100 WHIP, a 9.8 K/9, an ERA+ of 152. Tony Sipp was the only guy in the pen, other tha Kid Cody, who had a WHIP of over 1.200 or an ERA+ of under 109.

Glass 3/4 full. If the rest of the team was as good as the pen we'd still be playing.

ha, well the bullpen ranked 13th in the AL....the rotation ranked 13th in the AL....and the offense ranked 13th in the AL.....and we finished with the 13th best record in the AL.....but yeah, if the rest of the team was as "good" as our bullpen we'd still be playing now


And not sure why you just called Pestano crappy. I know he took a step back like I said, but hardly crappy. Just not as good as 2011 when his K-rate was over 12, his ERA+ was 170, his K/BB ratio was lower, hits per 9 was lower, WHIP was lowe....sorry, but like I said, Pestano took a step back this year. Still our best reliever no question, but the rest of the pen took a step back with him from last year. You must have watched a different team than me this year if you didn't see that. Sure, looking at WHIP only the bullpen was better, but still only 8th (bottom half of the league), which was a big drop off from last year when we ranked 3rd. What WHIP doesn't show is how hard the pen was knocked around as they allowed the 2nd most extra base hits of any bullpen (better than Toronto again).

ha, and you're forgetting about half the pen there. Other releivers with WHIPs over 1.20: Barnes, Ascensio, Accardo, Wheeler, Hagadone, Seddon, Maine. Sure most of these guys were cut or aren't suppose to help in the future but fact is they were in the pen and were a huge problem. 4 lefties in that group, 2 of which were supposed to really help (Hagadone and Barnes). Only lefty that pitched out of the pen this year to post a WHIP under 1.2 was Raffy Perez and he didn't even throw 8 innings.

I will give you that one can argue the bullpen was the "brightest" spot of this team this season....but it was still bad. Pestano, Smith and CP had good years and Esmil showed promise but unfortunately you can't run those big 3 out every game.

Also....All 7 of the A's top bullpen guys had WHIPs uner 1.20 and ERA+s over 130. Rays had only 2 of their top 7 with WHIPs over 1.2 (none over 1.25) and only 1 with an ERA+ under 126...Fansworth who posted a sub 1.0 WHIP. The Reds did have a few guys over 1.2 WHIPs...but no one with an ERA+ under 123 among their top 8 relievers. All of the orioles top 5 relievers had ERA+s over 160....not a single Indians reliever did that this year. Those are 4 small market clubs in the playoffs or near it that had much, much better bullpens than the Tribe this year.

I do think the pen can be a strength going into 2013, but c'mon, it struggled this year.

Hermie, Hermie, Hermie; where do I start? It's partly my fault, assuming you would catch the sarcasm re "Crappy old Pestano" so I'll just say: I was being sarcastic.

Also, re "Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians", I'm assuming most of the "other half" of the pen that you cited won't be here next season. So, you're right, those guys sucked. The guys we're keeping mostly didn't. They were mostly pretty great, IMO*. I wouldn't swear to it because you'd just look it up & tell me I'm wrong, but I seemed like the pen shared the Post-July Malaise that hit the rest of the team, at least to a degree. Vague enough?

Third, those pens you cited are great too. Better than ours. But, maybe the 13th best pen this year is analagous to being 13th in the Kentucky Derby, still a pretty good horse. The position players/offense were analagous to finishing 13th in a $1000 claimer at Thistledown. The SP's would be 13th in the Matinee Trot at Beautiful Raceway Park in Toledo. So you see, if all three of those areas of the team were analagous to being the 13th finisher in the Kentucky Derby, two of those areas would be improved; IMO*

In a nutshell, half of our pen was crappy in '12, most of the offense was crappy, & IMO*, every one of the SP's were crappy. Sense of proportion, okay.

Good news is that we're now dicussing the 2013 Cleveland Indians so we can assume, maybe*, as I mentioned earlier, that the bad half of the pen will be replaced & some of the bad position players will. Wouldn't bet anything on the rotation though.

*Hermie necessitated qualifier.

I knew you were being sarcastic. I was being a smartass as a result of it to point out how wrong you were. Guess you didn't catch that though, o well.

So you're now changing your arguement. I said the 2012 bullpen was bad, you're saying that it wasn't because half the bad guys will be gone in 2013? And more than half the bullpen was crappy in 2012. Only 3 guys were good for the whole year and only 4 of the 10 or so we used over the course of the year were good (Perez, Smith, Pestano, Rogers). Aseccio, Accardo, Wheeler, etc will be gone/are gone but people have to replace them....guys like Barnes, Allen, Hagadone, Sipp, etc still are going to be in that pen....

ha, wow....and let me get this straight too. You're admitting that half the bullpen was crappy (even though that's wrong but still), but you think that if we had a half crappy offense and a half crappy rotation (meaning the rest of the team played as "well" as the pen) we would STILL BE PLAYING NOW?!?!?!?!?!? yikes. Maybe if they let 26 teams into the playoffs and the first round was a best of 13 we'd still be playing now...even then we'd proably be out.

Hey, fair enough if it's "your opinion", but it's my opinion that you're dead wrong. You like many others are way too caught up in how well the pen did in 2011 and just won't take off your rose-colored glasses to see how big a problem they were this past season.

Also, I could easily argue that half the offense was fine. We did get above average offensive outputs from 5 of the 9 starting positions (Catcher, CF, RF, SS, and 2B). For most of this season too the offense was actually performing better than the bullpen. Were in that 10-11 range in the AL til that August collapse, whereas the bullpen was ranked in the 13-14 position for pretty much the entire year/summer.

We are talking about 2013....and one of those "good" relievers is likely gone (Chris Perez), one will likely be put in a role he's never done before in the bigs (Pestano), one hasn't been a reliever for a full season (Rogers), and another may be traded (Smith). The rest of the pen coming back is not good. Do think Allen will work out and have hopes still for both Barnes and Hags, plus the return of Raffy Perez (hopefully healthy), but there are some major question marks in that pen. It was a strength in 2011...a weakness in 2012. Hopefully they get a good pitching coach and bullpen coach in here that can sort things out or it will be another long summer as I do agree, the rotation was basically all crap this year (only starter with an ERA+ above 80 was McAllister).

I'll move on now about the 2012 bullpen which was bad (not just my opinion, it was flat out bad). I do hope the 2013 pen is better but we are going to need Allen to morph into the 2011 version of Pestano (sure it could happen) and for 2 of Raffy, Sipp, Barnes, and Hags to really step up. I think it's possible and here's hoping it happens.

[GeronimoSon]

Just the parts of your posting I want to comment on.....

Snatching up Francona is the 1st "good" off-season move the tribe has made in awhile. First off +1 on the hiring of an experienced/capable manager. When asked in his introduction interview on STO and other places, Tito emphatically stated that he was here to be the baseball manager and deferred any 'additional' areas of the baseball operation (trades/acquisitions/drafts) to MS and CA. Perhaps you have some secret information (or just want it to be different) on how this is different, but that's not what Tito said..

Though it is quite possible Choo gets ... Anyway. You specifically stated an over pay, not an overwhelming over pay. I agree. The type of players to be returned as you've suggested would be fine, as well.. The additional cash, IDK.. Here's a SWAG: Choo to the NYY's for Mason Willams, Alex Rodriguez and $ 85 MM in cash. Does this fit your 'parameters' and would you as interim GM/Manager make such a deal?

FA signings of Napoli C/1B / Melky in the OF +1 Would make for theee most successful off season in memory for the Indians

Who do we trade?

ML - Marson No, value too low, more important he stays on the Indians roster (if we sign Napoli), CPerez, Acab is also a possiblity - depends on who the tribe want in return Minors - anyone not named Paulino - yes Lindor is available for the right guy. +1 on trading anyone and everyone & I'd even include Paulino even though I hate to lose him.

Ubaldo will be back Sadly..

I think Antonetti.... fired. CA's going to be fired anyway..it's not if. it's when..his only hope is if the indians are in serious play off consideration

So thats it! 2013 will REQUIRE a COMMITMENT to spending....15-20 million a year for 3 players. Thats a start

I did a quick calculation of the net added changes in pending FA contracts (Projected for 2013 e.g. choo, ubaldo, etc) along with the departure of six current players (grady, pronk, kotchman, Slowey, Raffy Left, & FAUSTO) and came up with a net payroll differential of around $ 16 MM to spend, so, your numbers look about right...

[homerawayfromhome]

I think the Tribe will look at making a minimal splash this offseason in FA. Let me clarify by saying for them I think it will be out of the norm, but I look for them to act aggressively. There are decent players out there who could add a bit to the lineup. For conversation sake I'll say after they opt out on Hafner, Hernandez and with Sizemore and Kotchman becoming FA as well as a cpl potential trades likely both CPerez and Choo the club could have $20 million OR MORE (for a nice easy number) I will go with $20 mil to spend in FA. Here's a few ways they could spend it...

Mike Napoli- 1b / DH / backup C. 3 yrs / $30 mil w/4 th yr vesting option $12 w/ 2 mil buyout. (4 yrs / $42 mil)

Anibal Sanchez- RHSP. 3 yrs / $30 mil w/ 4 th yr vesting option $12 w/ 2 mil buyout. (4 yrs / $42 mil)

Shaun Marcum-RHSP. 3 yrs / $30 mil w/ 4 th yr vesting option $12 w/ 2 mil buyout. (4 yrs / $42 mil)

BJ Upton- CF. 3 yrs / $30 mil w/ 4 th & 5 th yr vesting options $12, $12 mil options w/ $2 mil buyout. (5 yrs / $54 mil)

Jeremy Guthrie- RHSP. 2 yrs / $15 mil w/ 3 rd yr team option $8 mil w/ 500k buyout. (3 yrs / $23 mil)

Joe Blanton- RHSP. 2 yrs / $16 mil

Francisco Liriano- LHSP. 2 yrs / $16 mil 3rd yr team option $9 mil w/ 500k buyout. (3 yrs / $25 mil)

Angel Pagan- CF. 3 yrs / $24 mil

Delmon Young- LF / DH. 3 yrs / $21 mil

Jonny Gomes- LF/ RF/DH. 2 yrs / $6 mil.

Scott Hairston- LF/RF/DH. 2 yrs / $8 mil.

[Rocky55]

Hermie, really, "bad bullpen"? Crappy old Pestano with only a 1.100 WHIP, a 9.8 K/9, an ERA+ of 152. Tony Sipp was the only guy in the pen, other tha Kid Cody, who had a WHIP of over 1.200 or an ERA+ of under 109.

Glass 3/4 full. If the rest of the team was as good as the pen we'd still be playing.

ha, well the bullpen ranked 13th in the AL....the rotation ranked 13th in the AL....and the offense ranked 13th in the AL.....and we finished with the 13th best record in the AL.....but yeah, if the rest of the team was as "good" as our bullpen we'd still be playing now


And not sure why you just called Pestano crappy. I know he took a step back like I said, but hardly crappy. Just not as good as 2011 when his K-rate was over 12, his ERA+ was 170, his K/BB ratio was lower, hits per 9 was lower, WHIP was lowe....sorry, but like I said, Pestano took a step back this year. Still our best reliever no question, but the rest of the pen took a step back with him from last year. You must have watched a different team than me this year if you didn't see that. Sure, looking at WHIP only the bullpen was better, but still only 8th (bottom half of the league), which was a big drop off from last year when we ranked 3rd. What WHIP doesn't show is how hard the pen was knocked around as they allowed the 2nd most extra base hits of any bullpen (better than Toronto again).

ha, and you're forgetting about half the pen there. Other releivers with WHIPs over 1.20: Barnes, Ascensio, Accardo, Wheeler, Hagadone, Seddon, Maine. Sure most of these guys were cut or aren't suppose to help in the future but fact is they were in the pen and were a huge problem. 4 lefties in that group, 2 of which were supposed to really help (Hagadone and Barnes). Only lefty that pitched out of the pen this year to post a WHIP under 1.2 was Raffy Perez and he didn't even throw 8 innings.

I will give you that one can argue the bullpen was the "brightest" spot of this team this season....but it was still bad. Pestano, Smith and CP had good years and Esmil showed promise but unfortunately you can't run those big 3 out every game.

Also....All 7 of the A's top bullpen guys had WHIPs uner 1.20 and ERA+s over 130. Rays had only 2 of their top 7 with WHIPs over 1.2 (none over 1.25) and only 1 with an ERA+ under 126...Fansworth who posted a sub 1.0 WHIP. The Reds did have a few guys over 1.2 WHIPs...but no one with an ERA+ under 123 among their top 8 relievers. All of the orioles top 5 relievers had ERA+s over 160....not a single Indians reliever did that this year. Those are 4 small market clubs in the playoffs or near it that had much, much better bullpens than the Tribe this year.

I do think the pen can be a strength going into 2013, but c'mon, it struggled this year.

Hermie, Hermie, Hermie; where do I start? It's partly my fault, assuming you would catch the sarcasm re "Crappy old Pestano" so I'll just say: I was being sarcastic.

Also, re "Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians", I'm assuming most of the "other half" of the pen that you cited won't be here next season. So, you're right, those guys sucked. The guys we're keeping mostly didn't. They were mostly pretty great, IMO*. I wouldn't swear to it because you'd just look it up & tell me I'm wrong, but I seemed like the pen shared the Post-July Malaise that hit the rest of the team, at least to a degree. Vague enough?

Third, those pens you cited are great too. Better than ours. But, maybe the 13th best pen this year is analagous to being 13th in the Kentucky Derby, still a pretty good horse. The position players/offense were analagous to finishing 13th in a $1000 claimer at Thistledown. The SP's would be 13th in the Matinee Trot at Beautiful Raceway Park in Toledo. So you see, if all three of those areas of the team were analagous to being the 13th finisher in the Kentucky Derby, two of those areas would be improved; IMO*

In a nutshell, half of our pen was crappy in '12, most of the offense was crappy, & IMO*, every one of the SP's were crappy. Sense of proportion, okay.

Good news is that we're now dicussing the 2013 Cleveland Indians so we can assume, maybe*, as I mentioned earlier, that the bad half of the pen will be replaced & some of the bad position players will. Wouldn't bet anything on the rotation though.

*Hermie necessitated qualifier.

I knew you were being sarcastic. I was being a smartass as a result of it to point out how wrong you were. Guess you didn't catch that though, o well.

So you're now changing your arguement. I said the 2012 bullpen was bad, you're saying that it wasn't because half the bad guys will be gone in 2013? And more than half the bullpen was crappy in 2012. Only 3 guys were good for the whole year and only 4 of the 10 or so we used over the course of the year were good (Perez, Smith, Pestano, Rogers). Aseccio, Accardo, Wheeler, etc will be gone/are gone but people have to replace them....guys like Barnes, Allen, Hagadone, Sipp, etc still are going to be in that pen....

ha, wow....and let me get this straight too. You're admitting that half the bullpen was crappy (even though that's wrong but still), but you think that if we had a half crappy offense and a half crappy rotation (meaning the rest of the team played as "well" as the pen) we would STILL BE PLAYING NOW?!?!?!?!?!? yikes. Maybe if they let 26 teams into the playoffs and the first round was a best of 13 we'd still be playing now...even then we'd proably be out.

Hey, fair enough if it's "your opinion", but it's my opinion that you're dead wrong. You like many others are way too caught up in how well the pen did in 2011 and just won't take off your rose-colored glasses to see how big a problem they were this past season.

Also, I could easily argue that half the offense was fine. We did get above average offensive outputs from 5 of the 9 starting positions (Catcher, CF, RF, SS, and 2B). For most of this season too the offense was actually performing better than the bullpen. Were in that 10-11 range in the AL til that August collapse, whereas the bullpen was ranked in the 13-14 position for pretty much the entire year/summer.

We are talking about 2013....and one of those "good" relievers is likely gone (Chris Perez), one will likely be put in a role he's never done before in the bigs (Pestano), one hasn't been a reliever for a full season (Rogers), and another may be traded (Smith). The rest of the pen coming back is not good. Do think Allen will work out and have hopes still for both Barnes and Hags, plus the return of Raffy Perez (hopefully healthy), but there are some major question marks in that pen. It was a strength in 2011...a weakness in 2012. Hopefully they get a good pitching coach and bullpen coach in here that can sort things out or it will be another long summer as I do agree, the rotation was basically all crap this year (only starter with an ERA+ above 80 was McAllister).

I'll move on now about the 2012 bullpen which was bad (not just my opinion, it was flat out bad). I do hope the 2013 pen is better but we are going to need Allen to morph into the 2011 version of Pestano (sure it could happen) and for 2 of Raffy, Sipp, Barnes, and Hags to really step up. I think it's possible and here's hoping it happens.

You were being a "smartass"??? Say it ain't so Hermie!!! Didn't notice any major change. My bad.

I'm not "admitting" half of the pen was bad, I'm stating it. Typical lawyer's trick; admit implies guilt. You ignore the fact that the "crappy part of the pen pitched only 58.41% of the IP that the good (100+ ERA+) part did. The crappy offense guys had 71.21% as many PA's as the good (100+ OPS+) guys did. To put it in nit-picky terms(your specialty)*, the "good" part of the pen was on the field way more than the "good' part of the offense. I'm including Kip among the "good" offensive players & Sipp among the "crappy" pen guys, even though Kip wasn't that good & Sipp wasn't that crappy, at least statistically. Also, although it would have strengthened my argument, I didn't include Huff or Seddon among the pen guys because I don't consider them* pen guys. I did look up their stats & they were much better in relief. Check for yourself.

Another thing, you seem to like to cite rankings, like they mean anything concrete. For example, the fifth strongest guy in a family of power lifters might be a little stronger than the fifth strongest guy in a family of art teachers, but they're both the fifth strongest. The rankings tell you exactly nothing, except relatively.

So, I'm saying, hopefully in easily understood terms, that the pen was objectively better than the offense. Thus, IMO*, you are the one who is dead wrong.

*HNQ (Thanks G)

[homerawayfromhome]

My point in the above post is the Tribe could have at or near $20 mil to spend and could improve this team with 2/3 pieces in FA. Add to that a cpl trades and the Tribe could be an improved team next yr.

Here's a few ways they could spend $20 mil...

Napoli $10 M per yr (3), Liriano $8 M per yr (2), Gomes $3 M per yr (2) totals at $21 M.

Sanchez $10 M per yr (3), Pagan $8 M per yr (3), Hairston $4 M per yr (2) totals $22 M.

Marcum $10 M per yr (3), Pagan $8 M per yr (3), Gomes $3 M (2) totals $21 M.

BJUpton $10 M per yr (3), Saunders $8 M p yr (3), Gomes $3 M (2) totals 21 M.

Liriano $8 M per yr (2), Guthrie $7 M per yr (2), Pagan $8 M per yr (3) totals $23 M.

Saunders $8 M per yr (3), Guthrie $7 M per yr (2), Hairston $4 M per yr (2), Gomes $3 M per yr (2) totals $24 M.

Liriano $8 M per yr (2), Saunders $8 M per yr (3), DYoung $7 M per yr (3) totals $23 M.

Blanton $8 M per (2), Pagan $8 M per yr (3), DYoung $7 M per yr (3) totals $23 M.

[Rocky55]

G mentioned/conjectured Choo to NYY for Mason Williams & ARod, plus $85 million. Olney said on Mike & Mike that the Y's will probably have to pay 90% of ARod's remaining contract to move him, about $106 million. If Arod would accept the trade (he wouldn't), the Dolans would hire a motorcade of limos to get him here. Of course, the money would go into their pockets, but still.

[GeronimoSon]

G mentioned/conjectured Choo to NYY for Mason Williams & ARod, plus $85 million. Olney said on Mike & Mike that the Y's will probably have to pay 90% of ARod's remaining contract to move him, about $106 million. If Arod would accept the trade (he wouldn't), the Dolans would hire a motorcade of limos to get him here. Of course, the money would go into their pockets, but still.

The $ 106 MM would go to Arod.. eventually...

[daingean]

G mentioned/conjectured Choo to NYY for Mason Williams & ARod, plus $85 million. Olney said on Mike & Mike that the Y's will probably have to pay 90% of ARod's remaining contract to move him, about $106 million. If Arod would accept the trade (he wouldn't), the Dolans would hire a motorcade of limos to get him here. Of course, the money would go into their pockets, but still.

I'm not an expert on player contracts but http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml shows that A-Rod is due $114million and a $30 million if he hit 14 more HRs. The way I read it the $30million is not part of the $114 but I could be wrong. No way would I take A-Rod with that deal. IMO, the Yankees will release him to prevent paying that $30million.

[Rocky55]

G mentioned/conjectured Choo to NYY for Mason Williams & ARod, plus $85 million. Olney said on Mike & Mike that the Y's will probably have to pay 90% of ARod's remaining contract to move him, about $106 million. If Arod would accept the trade (he wouldn't), the Dolans would hire a motorcade of limos to get him here. Of course, the money would go into their pockets, but still.

The $ 106 MM would go to Arod.. eventually...

Duh. My stupid.

[Rocky55]

G mentioned/conjectured Choo to NYY for Mason Williams & ARod, plus $85 million. Olney said on Mike & Mike that the Y's will probably have to pay 90% of ARod's remaining contract to move him, about $106 million. If Arod would accept the trade (he wouldn't), the Dolans would hire a motorcade of limos to get him here. Of course, the money would go into their pockets, but still.

I'm not an expert on player contracts but http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodrial01.shtml shows that A-Rod is due $114million and a $30 million if he hit 14 more HRs. The way I read it the $30million is not part of the $114 but I could be wrong. No way would I take A-Rod with that deal. IMO, the Yankees will release him to prevent paying that $30million.

Is that 14 more HR's from now til the end of the contract? He's not going anywhere. Be curious to find out how many more he hits in his career. Over/under 50?

[daingean]

that's how I read it......$30million is almost a guarantee.....even though he's been under 20HR's the last 2 years.

[GeronimoSon]

G mentioned/conjectured Choo to NYY for Mason Williams & ARod, plus $85 million. Olney said on Mike & Mike that the Y's will probably have to pay 90% of ARod's remaining contract to move him, about $106 million. If Arod would accept the trade (he wouldn't), the Dolans would hire a motorcade of limos to get him here. Of course, the money would go into their pockets, but still.

The $ 106 MM would go to Arod.. eventually...

Duh. My stupid.

lol...

[Hermie13]

You were being a "smartass"??? Say it ain't so Hermie!!! Didn't notice any major change. My bad.

I'm not "admitting" half of the pen was bad, I'm stating it. Typical lawyer's trick; admit implies guilt. You ignore the fact that the "crappy part of the pen pitched only 58.41% of the IP that the good (100+ ERA+) part did. The crappy offense guys had 71.21% as many PA's as the good (100+ OPS+) guys did. To put it in nit-picky terms(your specialty)*, the "good" part of the pen was on the field way more than the "good' part of the offense. I'm including Kip among the "good" offensive players & Sipp among the "crappy" pen guys, even though Kip wasn't that good & Sipp wasn't that crappy, at least statistically. Also, although it would have strengthened my argument, I didn't include Huff or Seddon among the pen guys because I don't consider them* pen guys. I did look up their stats & they were much better in relief. Check for yourself.

Another thing, you seem to like to cite rankings, like they mean anything concrete. For example, the fifth strongest guy in a family of power lifters might be a little stronger than the fifth strongest guy in a family of art teachers, but they're both the fifth strongest. The rankings tell you exactly nothing, except relatively.

So, I'm saying, hopefully in easily understood terms, that the pen was objectively better than the offense. Thus, IMO*, you are the one who is dead wrong.

*HNQ (Thanks G)

As I always say, better to be a smartass than a dumbass

hmm...Kipnis was 10th in all of baseball in WAR among 2Bs...guess that isn't all that good though (woops, sorry for another ranking)

Huff had 2 relief appearances, figured no one would take those numbers into consideration...and Seddon was better though WHIP was nearly 1.3 out of the pen. Actually wouldn't hate him as a long-man next year if the Tribe was able to bring him back on a minor league deal. Give you an extra lefty in the pen too as insurance in case one or both of Barnes/Hagadone struggle.

I get that you're saying the pen was objectively better than the offense...and even if you were right, you (and many others) are VASTLY overrating the pen if you think that if the offense and the rotation had been as "good" as the pen we'd still be playing now. Sorry but that is simply ridiculous. Even more ridiculous than this arguement we're having.

[homerawayfromhome]

Here's a link to a Mets web site that targets Choo as a potential trade target of the Mets.

http://risingapple.com/2012/10/16/poten ... -soo-choo/

[Hermie13]

Here's a link to a Mets web site that targets Choo as a potential trade target of the Mets.

http://risingapple.com/2012/10/16/poten ... -soo-choo/

I would be willing to deal Choo to the Mets but really wonder why they'd want him as he'll be a free agent after the season. I just don't see them being good enough even with Choo to win in that division. Nats are young and very talented, Braves should still be good, I don't think the Phillies are going to simply disappear again and can't count out the Marlins if they spend wisely this winter. May be 2-3 years away in Queens. Would like to get one of their younger starters though...or even Ike Davis potentially.

[homerawayfromhome]

I think they could work a deal with the Mets but it would have to be a bigger trade than just Choo going to NY to get a del done. They need a SS and RP badly. Maybe a big time trade with 2/3 pieces going there and netting 3/4 coming back depending on what the Tribe tried to bring back, I could see something getting done between the clubs, but I tend to believe the Tribe and Giants have had some real talks too.

[GoTribe028]

Didn't know teams could make deals already, but the A's, Marlins and D-Backs each made an interesting move today.

Diamondbacks dealt Chris Young to Oakland for Cliff Pennington and SS Yordy Cabrera.

Arizona then moved Cabrera to Miami for Heath Bell.

I guess that would null any chances Arizona was a potential trade partner in regards to Chris Perez or Asdrubal Cabrera.

[homerawayfromhome]

That move gives the A's an abundance of OF, which was already a strength for them. Cespedes, Crisp, Reddick, Young, May, Smith, Taylor, Cowgill and Gomes who will become a FA. I'm guessing they likely move Crisp, who the Tribe could have interest in IMO.
I'd love to see the Tribe make a play for one of their OF (Young, Cespedes or Crisp) and look at Gomes as a LF / DH who would likely sign cheap and short term. He's not a great bat, but would offer a RH stick that can man LF, RF and DH with a little pop.
I know the Marlins had Chisek closing, who did fairly well but they could also have some interest in Perez IMO.

A for making moves now, it's not uncommon. Usually they won't leak them until after the WS.
I guess this knocks out the Arod for Bell deal.

Also, I wouldn't write AZ off the mkt for a SS. Pennington offers depth at SS, but they could still try to make a move. Bell had been a very good closer in SD, they had already picked up Putz's option which tells me they wanted to further solidify their pen. By doing so they shorten games and want to make a big run this coming season. I think they could still be in the mkt for ACab and the deal would now likely have to consist of a young pitcher or two and maybe Pennington. Never know, Could be a move before a move. I know I'm dreaming but maybe the Tribe could pull off ACab for Skaggs, Pennington and Chafin. Preferably Skaggs and Davidson.

Also the A's have a huge hole at SS unless they trade an OF or pitching for one or resign Drew, which is unlikely IMO.

[GeronimoSon]

That move gives the A's an abundance of OF, which was already a strength for them. Cespedes, Crisp, Reddick, Young, May, Smith, Taylor, Cowgill and Gomes who will become a FA. I'm guessing they likely move Crisp, who the Tribe could have interest in IMO.
I'd love to see the Tribe make a play for one of their OF (Young, Cespedes or Crisp) and look at Gomes as a LF / DH who would likely sign cheap and short term. He's not a great bat, but would offer a RH stick that can man LF, RF and DH with a little pop.
I know the Marlins had Chisek closing, who did fairly well but they could also have some interest in Perez IMO.

A for making moves now, it's not uncommon. Usually they won't leak them until after the WS.
I guess this knocks out the Arod for Bell deal.

Also, I wouldn't write AZ off the mkt for a SS. Pennington offers depth at SS, but they could still try to make a move. Bell had been a very good closer in SD, they had already picked up Putz's option which tells me they wanted to further solidify their pen. By doing so they shorten games and want to make a big run this coming season. I think they could still be in the mkt for ACab and the deal would now likely have to consist of a young pitcher or two and maybe Pennington. Never know, Could be a move before a move. I know I'm dreaming but maybe the Tribe could pull off ACab for Skaggs, Pennington and Chafin. Preferably Skaggs and Davidson.

Also the A's have a huge hole at SS unless they trade an OF or pitching for one or resign Drew, which is unlikely IMO.

Yes.. it is unusual to see a trade of this type being announced during the LCS / WS time frame.. For the life of me, I don't see what or why the DBax have made this move.. Getting Pennington who's more suited as a Utility IF'er and Heath Bell with his massive contract for Yordy the pudgy little SS that wouldn't beat out Cord Phelps if he played SS (they're about the same player, tbh..neither has the range, hands or feet to play the spot in the ML's)? I just don't get it.. Did a dump truck filled with cash come from Miami with Heath Bell driving?

As far as solving problems.. Heath Bell to the DBax when they already had Putz.. doesn't sound like much of an issue for the Indians. Having depth at the back of the pen is a good thing.. ( keeping CP and Vinnie Pestano remains the best "non-move" the Indians can make this off season ) Now, if we're talking about Asdrubal and Choo as the primary trade pieces.. Then the A's certainly have some young OF'ers/1B the Indians would be interested in acquiring for Droobs. Add to the fact that now the DBax have moved Young, they could be a fine landing spot for Choo.. sets up nicely..

One trade..

A's get Asdrubal Cabrera & Wolters or R-Rod & Competitive Lottery Pick
Indians get Michael Choice or Grant Green, Sonny Gray, & Blake Hassebrock

Or the Droobs trade suggested by Homer.. with any two of Davidson or Wheeler & Skaggs or Chafin w/ Pennington as a throw in.. Either way, the Indians fill the need for some high upside bats and arms.. having an offensive SS with a team friendly contract makes Droobs a highly valuable commodity...

[homerawayfromhome]

I had forgotten Choice, hard imagine... I mean the A's have like 20 OF on their man roster. Seriously though Choice would be a nice add if they could pry him away, I think they move several guys. I'd snag up Gomes as a bench type bat getting him time in LF primarily, RF when necessary and DH. This certainly pushes him on the mkt even more. He had stated he'd like to stay in Oak, SF might be a real possibility but I'd throw a 2 yr deal for $2/3 mil to him. He's got some nice pop hits RH and is versatile enough to play R/LF.

Maybe the Tribe could pull off Cabrera for Cespedes, more likely to see a Cabrera for Crisp and minor leaguer.

Btw the Dbax reportedly recieved $8 mil with Bell in that deal, but sent some of it (maybe half?) to the A's. Young was a really interesting bat, tons of potential but had a shldr injury last season that hurt his numbers. I'm not. Sure why the Dbax wanted Bell, but my best guess was they felt a dominate and deep pen can shorten games and get them into the playoffs. Both the Dbax and A's can't be marked off the Tribes potential trade list.

[BrianM]

When is the last time the Indians did any business with the A's? The scenes from moneyball come to mind, and I wonder if Billy Beane still has a good relationship with the Indians front office. They are certainly a compatible trade partner.

[GeronimoSon]

I had forgotten Choice, hard imagine... I mean the A's have like 20 OF on their man roster. Seriously though Choice would be a nice add if they could pry him away, I think they move several guys. I'd snag up Gomes as a bench type bat getting him time in LF primarily, RF when necessary and DH. This certainly pushes him on the mkt even more. He had stated he'd like to stay in Oak, SF might be a real possibility but I'd throw a 2 yr deal for $2/3 mil to him. He's got some nice pop hits RH and is versatile enough to play R/LF.

Maybe the Tribe could pull off Cabrera for Cespedes, more likely to see a Cabrera for Crisp and minor leaguer.

Btw the Dbax reportedly recieved $8 mil with Bell in that deal, but sent some of it (maybe half?) to the A's. Young was a really interesting bat, tons of potential but had a shldr injury last season that hurt his numbers. I'm not. Sure why the Dbax wanted Bell, but my best guess was they felt a dominate and deep pen can shorten games and get them into the playoffs. Both the Dbax and A's can't be marked off the Tribes potential trade list.

In the Drumbeat section of the SF Chronicle Billy Beane stated that "..knows how important this guy [Coco] is to this team and he also is a personal favorite of mine..." It looks like Coco is going to be retained but Beane sort of let on that Gomes would not be inspite of his good showing/performance (from Bob Melvin's perspective) down the stretch as the A's won the AL West on the last day of the season.. The A's have essentially two holes in their roster.. SS and closer. While Grant "Ball-Four" did an admiral job in the role, he's clearly not an elite closer. The A's also have an abundance of young pitching and outfielders..

Odd, how well the Indians and the A's fit so together as trade partners..

[GeronimoSon]

When is the last time the Indians did any business with the A's? The scenes from moneyball come to mind, and I wonder if Billy Beane still has a good relationship with the Indians front office. They are certainly a compatible trade partner.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a relationship, but the A's acquired both Jeremy Accardo and Chris Ray from the Indians on waivers during this season..
.
.
.
Yeah..I didn't think so..

[homerawayfromhome]

Didn't the Tribe send them (A's) Neil Wagner a yr or two ago in a minor deal?

I think the A's and Tribe match up quite well, although I'm not sure the A's would want to pay him $7 M plus the next 2 seasons. Perez is what he is, and I think in a winning environment he'd be somewhat quieter than he has been... Although his persona could easily rub his teammates the wrong way.
Also, would the incident with the fan affect the A's decision making process RE: Chris Perez.

[GeronimoSon]

Didn't the Tribe send them (A's) Neil Wagner a yr or two ago in a minor deal?

I think the A's and Tribe match up quite well, although I'm not sure the A's would want to pay him $7 M plus the next 2 seasons. Perez is what he is, and I think in a winning environment he'd be somewhat quieter than he has been... Although his persona could easily rub his teammates the wrong way.
Also, would the incident with the fan affect the A's decision making process RE: Chris Perez.

Here's hoping (from this author's POV) that Chris Perez NEVER stops tweeting & becomes more vocal & adamant about what his thoughts and opinions are. FWIW, I'd rather hear what the players are thinking, directly, followed by out of town sources, then, GM-speak & finally, what idiots like Seldom-right Ocker & Paul Whore-nes say about the team, ownership, management & players... For example, they clearly stated, the day following the initial comments by CP, that other players were some how put off by the comments without a single quote from any of them. Their stories stated directly that the comments made by Chris Perez somehow were not well received by the rest of the players.. IT'S TOTAL BS. The other players were quite supportive of what he had to say... These idiot journalists are poison penned morons REAL fans can do without...

The A's have a history of being mavericks.. Having Chris Perez to beat the drum.. would be a perfect fit there even though I hope he stays right here on the North Coast.

[BrianM]

I'd be curious to see what they A's thought about Pestano. If they believed he could immediately step in and be an effective major league closer, he could be a major piece in a potential deal. I would see what they thought about CP first, but if the price was right, I don't think we should be afraid to deal Vinnie. I don't think we can seriously contend next year, so I would have no problem sticking with CP next year and letting Pestano go if it meant getting a couple young SP's to help us compete during the 2014 season and beyond. If we offer Billy Beane our best reliever, who happens to be within his price range for the next few years, I'm sure we could get his attention.

Edited to add:

Pestano and ACab to the A's for a package of Straily and Choice, maybe a couple others?

[timdav]

How do any of us really know if the Indians players agree with what Chris Perez said, or not?

I for one agree with 99% of what he said....but, that's just me.

From what I've always understood, Sheldon & Paul H. have always been pretty accurate in their reporting. As far as opinions on players...that's a crapshoot for anybody. But facts are facts.

[GeronimoSon]

I'd be curious to see what they A's thought about Pestano. If they believed he could immediately step in and be an effective major league closer, he could be a major piece in a potential deal. I would see what they thought about CP first, but if the price was right, I don't think we should be afraid to deal Vinnie. I don't think we can seriously contend next year, so I would have no problem sticking with CP next year and letting Pestano go if it meant getting a couple young SP's to help us compete during the 2014 season and beyond. If we offer Billy Beane our best reliever, who happens to be within his price range for the next few years, I'm sure we could get his attention.

Edited to add: Pestano and ACab to the A's for a package of Straily and Choice, maybe a couple others?

I'm not certain what you mean by 'seriously' contend, but, it sort of fits with the notion that the Indians will not be favorites to win the AL Central in 2013 unless something dramatic happens. What you're offering is that "something dramatic".. The A's have a one year option on Steven Drew they can pick up for $ 11 MM. The A's moved Grant Green to the OF a year or so ago, so they have no one in their minor league system at AA or above that appears to be a ML ready or an impact player for the SS position. The A's first round draft pick a HS kid, Addison Russell may be their best middle infield prospect, however, he's at least two & more likely three years away from contending for a spot in the upper minors or as a late season call up to the big league squad. In short, the A's SS spot is pretty barren.

The trade package suggested, Vinnie & Droobs for Straily, Choice and perhaps.. one or more of Green / Taylor / Gray / Hassebrock, would represent a very nice return. Usually, RP's are not considered the most valuable piece to a trade, however, when you have one of the best set up men who may have the ability to close, the A's would be wise to consider him..

[homerawayfromhome]

I wasn't referring to any of those news articles, i dont live in Ohio and I dont see a lot of the local press, in fact I'm several states removed. I was simply referring to his continuous antics and comments...that will rub some the wrong way.

Some of his controversial comments... RE: Tim Tebow on Twitter, arguing with fans and opposing players like Dyson.

I love that he carries his personality on the field.

But teams who don't know him / could be turned off no matter how true his comments (and antics) have been about the brass and fans in Cleveland.

Chris Perez is passionate about baseball, I've seen that on the mound and after games when he's engaging fans....waving, talking and handing out his hat to fans...the other side ppl don't see or hear about. The guys a fiery competitor and someone I want to see the Tribe keep bc he's one of my favorites but as Cleveland Indians baseball goes...Perez will likely end up somewhere else to fill an org. need or two. Personally, I hope whatever they get for him brings back the same competitive fire and performance that Perez has offered.

[timdav]

With websites for newspapers and sportstalk stations streaming...it's pretty easy to keep up with baseball news even if you live out of the area, even overseas.

And, as long as print websites are free...anybody has a pretty easy task of reading the Plain Dealer, Akron Beacon Journal, and News-Herald baseball writers.

[homerawayfromhome]

Agreed, Timdav

I could go to those sites and their perspective. Why? It's pretty much an utter waste of time they never have anything to say.
My comments RE: Chris Perez are simple, his personality could be considered brash by his own teammates. Some of the guys don't like the prima Donna types floating around the locker room. That's pretty simple and usually a team can only handle so many personalities.
Let me state it clearly, some teams can and will be turned off by his persona. That's pretty simple and as far as I'm concerned a matter of fact. Not every clubhouse can handle the personality, how would he mesh and would he turn on his teammates. I'm playing devils advocate here, bc I don't see Perez that way... turning on his teammates, he has no past of it as far as I am aware of. He has made controversial and offensive comments on Twitter, coupled with his other actions I can see where other teams might have some tentativeness.

Btw, my comments were not Re: Perez's opinion of ownership / mgmt. they were generally his type of comments, antics actions can and will annoy some of his teammates. Part of that is others don't want to share the spotlight, but I think ppl are also qk to judge him bc he's a strait shooter. He's very passionate about what does and he carries that with him.

[GeronimoSon]

Agreed, Timdav

I could go to those sites and their perspective. Why? It's pretty much an utter waste of time they never have anything to say.
My comments RE: Chris Perez are simple, his personality could be considered brash by his own teammates. Some of the guys don't like the prima Donna types floating around the locker room. That's pretty simple and usually a team can only handle so many personalities.
Let me state it clearly, some teams can and will be turned off by his persona. That's pretty simple and as far as I'm concerned a matter of fact. Not every clubhouse can handle the personality, how would he mesh and would he turn on his teammates. I'm playing devils advocate here, bc I don't see Perez that way... turning on his teammates, he has no past of it as far as I am aware of. He has made controversial and offensive comments on Twitter, coupled with his other actions I can see where other teams might have some tentativeness.

Btw, my comments were not Re: Perez's opinion of ownership / mgmt. they were generally his type of comments, antics actions can and will annoy some of his teammates. Part of that is others don't want to share the spotlight, but I think ppl are also qk to judge him bc he's a strait shooter. He's very passionate about what does and he carries that with him.

FWIW.. I was referring to the universality of the response regarding the comments from the alleged journalists who made the claims that the "other players" were some how / some way annoyed at the CP comments.. In fact, not a single player had been quoted directly or indirectly. The comments from the local media (the Paul Whore-nes and Seldom Rights) were immediate and without foundation of fact. When some players did have the chance to respond at a later date, all players who were quoted directly or indirectly were supportive. Since the CP comments were made, these journalists have continued to couch the comments by CP as derogatory to the management and ownership, front office & upsetting and taken negatively by the other players.

CP's comments were well received and supported by the other players.. Only Chuck Galeti and to a lesser degree, Tony Lastoria, had enough hair on their balls to support CP's comments and confirm the players support, btw...

[daingean]

Agreed, Timdav

I could go to those sites and their perspective. Why? It's pretty much an utter waste of time they never have anything to say.
My comments RE: Chris Perez are simple, his personality could be considered brash by his own teammates. Some of the guys don't like the prima Donna types floating around the locker room. That's pretty simple and usually a team can only handle so many personalities.
Let me state it clearly, some teams can and will be turned off by his persona. That's pretty simple and as far as I'm concerned a matter of fact. Not every clubhouse can handle the personality, how would he mesh and would he turn on his teammates. I'm playing devils advocate here, bc I don't see Perez that way... turning on his teammates, he has no past of it as far as I am aware of. He has made controversial and offensive comments on Twitter, coupled with his other actions I can see where other teams might have some tentativeness.

Btw, my comments were not Re: Perez's opinion of ownership / mgmt. they were generally his type of comments, antics actions can and will annoy some of his teammates. Part of that is others don't want to share the spotlight, but I think ppl are also qk to judge him bc he's a strait shooter. He's very passionate about what does and he carries that with him.

FWIW.. I was referring to the universality of the response regarding the comments from the alleged journalists who made the claims that the "other players" were some how / some way annoyed at the CP comments.. In fact, not a single player had been quoted directly or indirectly. The comments from the local media (the Paul Whore-nes and Seldom Rights) were immediate and without foundation of fact. When some players did have the chance to respond at a later date, all players who were quoted directly or indirectly were supportive. Since the CP comments were made, these journalists have continued to couch the comments by CP as derogatory to the management and ownership, front office & upsetting and taken negatively by the other players.

CP's comments were well received and supported by the other players.. Only Chuck Galeti and to a lesser degree, Tony Lastoria, had enough hair on their balls to support CP's comments and confirm the players support, btw...

I think the players agreed with CP and his comments but also disagreed that it should have been verbalized in the press. Most people (in any organization) know that you keep these kind of comments "In House".

[GeronimoSon]

Agreed, Timdav

I could go to those sites and their perspective. Why? It's pretty much an utter waste of time they never have anything to say.
My comments RE: Chris Perez are simple, his personality could be considered brash by his own teammates. Some of the guys don't like the prima Donna types floating around the locker room. That's pretty simple and usually a team can only handle so many personalities.
Let me state it clearly, some teams can and will be turned off by his persona. That's pretty simple and as far as I'm concerned a matter of fact. Not every clubhouse can handle the personality, how would he mesh and would he turn on his teammates. I'm playing devils advocate here, bc I don't see Perez that way... turning on his teammates, he has no past of it as far as I am aware of. He has made controversial and offensive comments on Twitter, coupled with his other actions I can see where other teams might have some tentativeness.

Btw, my comments were not Re: Perez's opinion of ownership / mgmt. they were generally his type of comments, antics actions can and will annoy some of his teammates. Part of that is others don't want to share the spotlight, but I think ppl are also qk to judge him bc he's a strait shooter. He's very passionate about what does and he carries that with him.

FWIW.. I was referring to the universality of the response regarding the comments from the alleged journalists who made the claims that the "other players" were some how / some way annoyed at the CP comments.. In fact, not a single player had been quoted directly or indirectly. The comments from the local media (the Paul Whore-nes and Seldom Rights) were immediate and without foundation of fact. When some players did have the chance to respond at a later date, all players who were quoted directly or indirectly were supportive. Since the CP comments were made, these journalists have continued to couch the comments by CP as derogatory to the management and ownership, front office & upsetting and taken negatively by the other players.

CP's comments were well received and supported by the other players.. Only Chuck Galeti and to a lesser degree, Tony Lastoria, had enough hair on their balls to support CP's comments and confirm the players support, btw...

I think the players agreed with CP and his comments but also disagreed that it should have been verbalized in the press. Most people (in any organization) know that you keep these kind of comments "In House".

Agreed... most of these comments are internalized and dealt with internally and should be.. Once they were made public, however, all we've seen is a litany of half truths and innuendo by the Seldom Right's and Whore-nes's. They're not accurate or truthful, in spite of what you might want to believe..

[homerawayfromhome]

Just curious has anyone heard if Japanese HS P Shohei Otani is available as a International FA now, or does he have to finish his HS career and than become available for the next Intnational signing period. Maybe I've missed it, but I've not heard if he's signable now or next summer.

Next yr the Tribe will have more money to spend through the new IFA spending rules based on their W/L records. Regardless, there's going to be stiff competition to get Otani signed, I'd plainly say the odds are more than stacked against the Tribe getting it done.

[GeronimoSon]

Just curious has anyone heard if Japanese HS P Shohei Otani is available as a International FA now, or does he have to finish his HS career and than become available for the next Intnational signing period. Maybe I've missed it, but I've not heard if he's signable now or next summer.

Next yr the Tribe will have more money to spend through the new IFA spending rules based on their W/L records. Regardless, there's going to be stiff competition to get Otani signed, I'd plainly say the odds are more than stacked against the Tribe getting it done.

Homer.. to my understanding, he hasn't been signed by an NPB club so he is a Free Agent.. That is, no posting fee required. If he signs with an MLB club, he cannot return/sign with an NPB club for three years. He has to be signed before October 29th, or there is a strong likelihood he will be drafted, thereby relinquishing his Free Agency for MLB and enacting the Posting Fee Process.

btw.. if the Indians have it in them & Otani was agreeable.. they could sign Otani and pay the fines/taxes.. It would be a LOT less than the posting fee will ever be...

[homerawayfromhome]

I agree, I'd take a shot at least, I mean why not over pay to get him? Seriously, are the repercussions so much that they can't spend to get him. A second point here, why not spend on young talent instead of washed up talent. A third point is bc of the Tribes W/L record they will actually have more money allocated toward their pool based on the new CBA rules which parallels a draft / slot system for international spending.

Something to consider for these major league clubs is the future relations in scouting, etc. in the Pacific Rim if they sign Otani. I think there would definitely be some tension between MLB and NPB which I think could help push in place an international draft in the very near future.

As per MLB.com here's the guidelines to IFA overages...

"The rules for the spending pools are somewhat similar to the Draft spending pools in terms of the penalties that come with going over the limit. Going over by up to five percent will result in a 75-percent tax on the overage. Landing in the 5-to-10-percent range will bring a 100-percent tax and the loss of the right to give more than one player in the next signing period a bonus of more than $500,000. Going over by 10-to-15 percent will lead to a 100-percent tax and the inability to sign any player for more than $500,000 in the next signing period. Any team going over a 15-percent threshold will get hit with a 100-percent tax on the overage and won't be able to exceed $250,000 for any one player in the next signing period.

The pools for international signings will work a little different. The 2012-13 period will be a transition year, with every team getting the same amount to spend: $2.9 million. After that, there will be differentiated pools, from approximately $1.7 million to $4.7 million. Beginning with the 2013-14 signing period (July 2-June 15), the pools will be determined by winning percentage, with the clubs that finish the previous season with the lowest winning percentages assigned the largest pools. If that system were in place in 2012, the Houston Astros would have been able to spend up to $4.7 million without penalty."

[OhioBaseball]

Just curious has anyone heard if Japanese HS P Shohei Otani is available as a International FA now, or does he have to finish his HS career and than become available for the next Intnational signing period. Maybe I've missed it, but I've not heard if he's signable now or next summer.

Next yr the Tribe will have more money to spend through the new IFA spending rules based on their W/L records. Regardless, there's going to be stiff competition to get Otani signed, I'd plainly say the odds are more than stacked against the Tribe getting it done.

Homer.. to my understanding, he hasn't been signed by an NPB club so he is a Free Agent.. That is, no posting fee required. If he signs with an MLB club, he cannot return/sign with an NPB club for three years. He has to be signed before October 29th, or there is a strong likelihood he will be drafted, thereby relinquishing his Free Agency for MLB and enacting the Posting Fee Process.

btw.. if the Indians have it in them & Otani was agreeable.. they could sign Otani and pay the fines/taxes.. It would be a LOT less than the posting fee will ever be...

The absence of a posting fee should be completely irrelevant to any decision made on him. He doesn't deserve more money just b/c he's Japanese. There's plenty of talent available in the Caribbean to be had and frankly, given the history of such young talent, blowing your budget on a single player, particularly a pitcher, (and paying a tax on top of that) is really unattractive. I know as a fan it's exciting acquiring a well known teenage talent in the short-run, but I prefer what's better in the long-run and I believe that's spreading out your investment across many young Caribbean players and hoping they blossom in the next 2-3 years -- similar to what the Indians did last year (except I don't like investing in catchers)

[homerawayfromhome]

Based on those International rules I'd be willing to go up to 15% over to get Otani signed meaning the Tribe would pay 100% tax on the overage and would be limited to signing players at $500k or less. There are a number of solid signings in that price range, but 15 % over likely wont get it done to sign Otani and the next penalty of 100% tax and the limit if signing guys at $250K or less is TOO BiG of a hurdle for the Tribe IMO.

I'll go on record now saying the Tribe will not spend to get Otani, based solely on the penalty phase they would incur and the cost of signing freedom next season. That said I think a team like the Rangers who will have limited resources to spend (around $2 M to $2.5 M) next season will or at least should jump at the opportunity to sign this kid.

Btw, my guesstimating the Tribes spending pool for IFA next signing period looks like it may be about $4.2 M... And that's using the descending order based on the numbers given by MLB.

Signing Otani would hamstring the Tribe next signing period severly which IMO would and probably should completely knock him off their radar. I'd love to see them get him, but being realistic it's just not realistic to attempt to do so unless the kid lands on the cheap...which is very doubtful.

[GeronimoSon]

6'4" 200 pound 18 year old right handers that throw the ball 100 mph with at least a chance to have two other pitches that only cost money is something the Indians should absolutely consider. The other clubs involved in the 'chase' to acquire him are in the same boat financial boat.. that is, they're constrained equally which makes signing him the closest thing to a level playing field the Indians will get.. If signing Otani and he is what I think he's going to be, then I really don't care about two or three other Latinos from Venezuela or DR or where ever.. This kid has a chance to be an incredible pitcher in the future.. Time for a risk reward assessment.. In this case.. it's a HUGE risk.. but, the reward is just as big even bigger....

[Rocky55]

Just curious has anyone heard if Japanese HS P Shohei Otani is available as a International FA now, or does he have to finish his HS career and than become available for the next Intnational signing period. Maybe I've missed it, but I've not heard if he's signable now or next summer.

Next yr the Tribe will have more money to spend through the new IFA spending rules based on their W/L records. Regardless, there's going to be stiff competition to get Otani signed, I'd plainly say the odds are more than stacked against the Tribe getting it done.

Homer.. to my understanding, he hasn't been signed by an NPB club so he is a Free Agent.. That is, no posting fee required. If he signs with an MLB club, he cannot return/sign with an NPB club for three years. He has to be signed before October 29th, or there is a strong likelihood he will be drafted, thereby relinquishing his Free Agency for MLB and enacting the Posting Fee Process.

btw.. if the Indians have it in them & Otani was agreeable.. they could sign Otani and pay the fines/taxes.. It would be a LOT less than the posting fee will ever be...

The absence of a posting fee should be completely irrelevant to any decision made on him. He doesn't deserve more money just b/c he's Japanese. There's plenty of talent available in the Caribbean to be had and frankly, given the history of such young talent, blowing your budget on a single player, particularly a pitcher, (and paying a tax on top of that) is really unattractive. I know as a fan it's exciting acquiring a well known teenage talent in the short-run, but I prefer what's better in the long-run and I believe that's spreading out your investment across many young Caribbean players and hoping they blossom in the next 2-3 years -- similar to what the Indians did last year (except I don't like investing in catchers)

+1

Although I do like "investing in catchers" if they can hit. The position change thing.

This is the 100 MPH kid, right? Can he spin it? Is he durable? Command? Remember that reliever with the glasses, I'm thinking Farnsworth but I'm not sure. Guy had an amazing arm but wasn't that good. I think he's retired. Too lazy to look it up. Velo isn't everything.*

Check this out. Kinda speaks to the "spread the money around" idea. Ah, the innocent days before we knew what we had in Paulino.


http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/b ... plash-5707

*HNQ

[homerawayfromhome]

I seriously doubt the Tribe will do it for reasons I've pointed out. I think I rather snag 4/5 guys for near $1 Mil each than one guy. I'd love to see them get Otani, but I'm just not seeing them do it and I get why.

[GeronimoSon]

I seriously doubt the Tribe will do it for reasons I've pointed out. I think I rather snag 4/5 guys for near $1 Mil each than one guy. I'd love to see them get Otani, but I'm just not seeing them do it and I get why.

I get why too.. The travails of going from prospect signing to ML player are fraught with peril.. When the talent is there, the mentality wanes. It's unusual to find and believe that this or that kid has both & may become the next Doc Gooden.. but, if we sign five guys with potential..then maybe one of them can be a close proxy..

The opposite side of the equation is akin to horse racing (and don't kid yourself, breeding has a LOT to do with projection).. You don't bet on the 'field' because it's five or six horses to one, giving you the majority chance..you bet on the stud..He's the one that has the best chance to win the race... he's the thoroughbred..

Otani has the makings of being theee thoroughbred.. but it wouldn't hurt to lay a double saw buck on the Paulino's and Santander's and Miguel's and others..

edit: Tony, If you don't believe it's too invasive, let us know what the docs had to say about your 6 month checkup.. Details are not important..just a note describing the straightness of your hat...

[GeronimoSon]

Not to belabor this point:

...a litany of half truths and innuendo by the Seldom Right's and Whore-nes's. They're not accurate or truthful..

but, today, into Akron Beacon Urinal.. Seldom Right's column had an introduction to Tito Francona and what he's doing in preparation for the coming season.. In it is the genesis of the Terry Francona vis-a-vis responsibility as it relates to Terry's responsibility for trades and free agent acquisitions... Here is what Seldom Right stated:

...Francona also expects to be involved in player personnel decisions, including free-agent signings and trades. But that can get a little tricky, because those kinds of decisions fall directly to the general manager. However, that's where the relationship between Francona and Antonetti can blur lines of authority...

First off.. there is no blurring...

Second off.. there is no expectation..as witnessed by a direct quote from Francona:

"..I've known Chris and Mark for a long time. I'm afforded an opinion, and that's nice. But I have no ambition to be a general manager, and I respect the chain of command.."

Seldom Right then claims.. SEE!!.. Francona has expectations.. but it's not going to be his fault.. it's going to be Chris Antonetti's fault.. This is a classic set up by Seldom Right to plant the seeds of culpability directly on his target with an unspoken agenda: fire the GM.. it's coming.. it's there.. Anyone who has seen this alleged journalist knows.. that's his plan going forward...

[homerawayfromhome]

Based on what I've seen Otani has the talent to project as a number 1 overall pk if he were in the MLB draft. Something i was unclear on. That said all things considered and weighed, another factor I had not thought of until recently I'd make a very aggressive offer on this kid I'm talking $3.5 mil to $5 mil.
If he signed great, the Tribe would then be limited to signing players at no more than $250 K next signing period. The answers simple and was right under my nose. SIGN OTANI, pay the penalty and then in turn trade $2.1 M next yr (projected to get a $4.2 M pool next yr in the IFA) to some of the teams. Btw, i think teams can only trade up to half of their pool money, if they could trade more than id do it and only sign a handful of guys.