Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

[GeronimoSon]

Agreed, part of the reason I suggest the Tribe to sign a guy like Anibal Sanchez and / or Mike Napoli and then focus on the trade front.
The weak FA class will also likely result in more deals (trades) league wide.
Teams can only shop from what's available, and find other means to get pieces.
Are there any Yoenis Cespedes type international FA? I haven't heard a single word about any... I'd look that route too, there have been some interesting guys come into MLB in recent yrs.

There are a couple of IFA's that I've heard about.. not a lot of depth, but, I expect when the World Baseball Classic fires up in the spring, we'll really get a good look at what's out there. In the interim.. here are a couple of names/position/country of origin to consider:

Jose Castillo, LHP, Venezuela; is a 16 year old lefty. is 6’4” and 200 pounds. He looks like a grown man. He has a low 90s fastball that could reach into the mid 90s as his body matures. He just looks like a Major League pitcher. He has nice, clean mechanics and shows the ability to develop into something special.

Carlos Belen, 3B, Dominican Republic; He’s a 6’2”, 190 3B, but is defensively challenged. He's got a special bat and has hit for average and should be able to develop some serious power as matures. He has a plus arm that might fit well into RF if he has to move from 3B, but, there is no doubt about his bat as a c-OF'er.

Edit: MLB Trade Rumors had a story about a Japanese "phenom" that hasn't been drafted.. As such, he would not be restricted by the Nippon Profession Baseball Leagues incredibly restrictive "posting protocol".. That is, this phenom, Showei Otani, 18, 6'4", 190 pounds, would not require a posting fee. The CBA as it relates to IFA's has restrictive covenants on spending to the point of downright onerously prohibitive, but, from the vids of this kid pitching, he's the goods.. no doubt about it, imho.. Take a look for yourselves:

http://www.giantrobot.com/news/shohei-o ... hool-game/

...Almost too interesting not to look into...

[Rocky55]

Linked on the PD site, teams in the market for Asdrubal:

http://wahoosonfirst.com/2012/10/11/who ... l-cabrera/

Still think the DBacks are the best match. Solve most of our starting pitching woes in one shot. Wheeler/Harvey/Nimmo from the Mets sounds interesting too.

[GoTribe028]

Agreed, part of the reason I suggest the Tribe to sign a guy like Anibal Sanchez and / or Mike Napoli and then focus on the trade front.
The weak FA class will also likely result in more deals (trades) league wide.
Teams can only shop from what's available, and find other means to get pieces.
Are there any Yoenis Cespedes type international FA? I haven't heard a single word about any... I'd look that route too, there have been some interesting guys come into MLB in recent yrs.

There are a couple of IFA's that I've heard about.. not a lot of depth, but, I expect when the World Baseball Classic fires up in the spring, we'll really get a good look at what's out there. In the interim.. here are a couple of names/position/country of origin to consider:

Jose Castillo, LHP, Venezuela; is a 16 year old lefty. is 6’4” and 200 pounds. He looks like a grown man. He has a low 90s fastball that could reach into the mid 90s as his body matures. He just looks like a Major League pitcher. He has nice, clean mechanics and shows the ability to develop into something special.

Carlos Belen, 3B, Dominican Republic; He’s a 6’2”, 190 3B, but is defensively challenged. He's got a special bat and has hit for average and should be able to develop some serious power as matures. He has a plus arm that might fit well into RF if he has to move from 3B, but, there is no doubt about his bat as a c-OF'er.

Edit: MLB Trade Rumors had a story about a Japanese "phenom" that hasn't been drafted.. As such, he would not be restricted by the Nippon Profession Baseball Leagues incredibly restrictive "posting protocol".. That is, this phenom, Showei Otani, 18, 6'4", 190 pounds, would not require a posting fee. The CBA as it relates to IFA's has restrictive covenants on spending to the point of downright onerously prohibitive, but, from the vids of this kid pitching, he's the goods.. no doubt about it, imho.. Take a look for yourselves:

http://www.giantrobot.com/news/shohei-o ... hool-game/

...Almost too interesting not to look into...

Yeah I agree the Indians would be foolish if they didn't seriously look into these players. Doesn't help right away (most times) but with recent gambles paying off for Oakland and Cincinnatti with Cepedes and Chapman it becomes a little more intriguing that the Indians could eventually buy into one of the Dominican players coming into the states.

[BrianM]

Linked on the PD site, teams in the market for Asdrubal:

http://wahoosonfirst.com/2012/10/11/who ... l-cabrera/

Still think the DBacks are the best match. Solve most of our starting pitching woes in one shot. Wheeler/Harvey/Nimmo from the Mets sounds interesting too.

Good read. He may have convinced me that ACab really is our most valuable trade piece. I doubt the mets are an option. The New York Post reported they may already have a deal in place involving David Wright and RA Dickey, so they're probably going to be sellers, not buyers. I agree Dbacks are best match. Skaggs and Bauer seem like long shots if the deal only includes ACab, but Bradley and Corbin are nice pieces that are likely attainable and even though I dont know much about Chafin or Davidson, Im sure they would be worthy pieces too considering they could fill positions of need. Pittsburg may still be a nice fit as well, but Im really hoping for some pitching, and the pirates don't seem to be in a position to trade their top 2 prospect arms considering the state of their current rotation.

[Hermie13]

Linked on the PD site, teams in the market for Asdrubal:

http://wahoosonfirst.com/2012/10/11/who ... l-cabrera/

Still think the DBacks are the best match. Solve most of our starting pitching woes in one shot. Wheeler/Harvey/Nimmo from the Mets sounds interesting too.

I agree on the DBacks being the best match...but wonder if pitching may not be the target there. I know some think Choo is the best trade candidate OFer but Justin Upton very likely could be on the block this winter. AC for Upton straight up doesn't work but think it would at least be a discussion starter. Upton didn't have the best year but RH bat/cOFer the Tribe could use. I think a Choo/Cabrera for Upton/Young deal could be an intrigueing one for both sides (if the Tribe has a backup option set for SS, like a Stephen Drew potentially)...

I obviously think pitching is the biggest need for the Tribe, hope that's the focus and do like a lot of the young pitchers the D'backs have. Not convinced that the Tribe would look at prospects or guys with almost no ML experience for AC though...not after hiring Francona. Think AC is gonna be an Indian opening day personally (though the free agent SS market could be scary bad if both Drew and Peralta have their options picked up).

I do think the Rays could be involved even though this article kind of writes them off. They could be willing to part with Shields for Cabrera IMO. Years left on their deals matches up and the Rays have the young pitching to compensate for Shields who is the only member of their rotation in his 30s. Would save the Rays some money without raising the Tribe's payroll much (couple mil each of the next 2 years if we pick up both of Shields' options). Tribe would again need to find a SS replacement (not easy) and still fix the offense, but I am a huge Shields fan and believe he would be the Ace we have needed of late.

Side not though...I do think the Rangers could throw a big curve at teams this winter by making Andrus avialbe in trade talks. Could hurt Asdrubal's value some depending how teams view each player...

[homerawayfromhome]

I definitely think the Tribe should go after Otani. This is an area where I think the Tribe should work aggressively, there's some real talent out there but getting it in the system is the key. Its cheaper to add numerous young players than to sign FA. If I recall from the newest CBA correctly, the Tribe has $2.9 mil to spend and so does every other team and there are various penalties for going over, although they can go over by 10% without penalty and contracts for less than $50k dont count against the pool. Also teams can trade their international spending pool. That's exactly what I'd try to do, acq. more cash for the spending pool but regardless, I'd make a serious offer to this kid.
I think, the Tribe has spent something like $2.2-$2.5 mil of their pool already?

[homerawayfromhome]

It seems like the same clubs keep coming into discussion for Choo, Perez or ACab. The Dbax, Mets, Giants and Red Sox all seemingly would have interest in at least 2 of the 3.
There's a lot of talk that the Dbax will listen on just about any of Upton, Young, Kubel and Parra. I'd love to see the Tribe make a move on a young star type like Upton but its highly unlikely they'll pull anything like that off. Parra however, would be an affordable add ($$$) with GG defense but he bats LH.
If the Tribe does trade ACab this offseason they would consider adding a guy like Ronny Cedeno as a stop gap platoon type with Juan Diaz. Cedeno would offer a RH bat and decent play in the middle of the diamond.
I strongly feel we will see the Tribe make several deals this offseason and I'm sure a cpl of the moves may not be popular but necessary for the long term.

[GeronimoSon]

I definitely think the Tribe should go after Otani. This is an area where I think the Tribe should work aggressively, there's some real talent out there but getting it in the system is the key. Its cheaper to add numerous young players than to sign FA. If I recall from the newest CBA correctly, the Tribe has $2.9 mil to spend and so does every other team and there are various penalties for going over, although they can go over by 10% without penalty and contracts for less than $50k dont count against the pool. Also teams can trade their international spending pool. That's exactly what I'd try to do, acq. more cash for the spending pool but regardless, I'd make a serious offer to this kid.
I think, the Tribe has spent something like $2.2-$2.5 mil of their pool already?

$ 2.575 MM spent by the Indians..

Other teams are posted at this site: http://www.85percentsports.com/2012/07/ ... t-tracker/

Ten teams haven't spent a dime of their 'allotted' budget for IFA's.. Trading for that budget contingent upon the signature of this kid, seems like a lot of stuff to get done.. and not much time to do it...

[homerawayfromhome]

@ Geronimo Son,

Thanks for the link, I'm not sure that those numbers are accurate for the Tribe. It lists Naoki Hashimoto signing ($250k) reportedly occurred before the IFA spending period.

I would try to sign this kid regardless. Meaning if the Tribe was penalized, unless they would loose their entire pool next yr.
My point regarding acq. more IFA cash would be a routine practice. For example, lets say the Tribe traded David Huff to the Brewers for $100k, past that would be a cash deal...I'd make it practice to acq. that cash from their IFA spending pool.

I think the Tribe should offer a deal to Otani, it would be worth the risk. Here's another area where I feel the Tribe has to think / spend outside the box. Its probably one of those times where the Tribe has spent what they will from their pool. I would at least throw an offer on the table. I'm curious when he will actually be available, can teams sign him now or do they have to allow him to graduate HS? I know the MLB and Japanese League have some sort of deal in place.

[homerawayfromhome]

Here's a link on the international spending rules. Definitely some changes I didn't know about, like the changing spending pool and the slots that are tradable. I knew they could trade the money but its actually dealt out in slots, but doesn't have to be spent that way.

Link... http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... b&c_id=mlb

[homerawayfromhome]

I think Tony hit on the possibility the Tribe would potentially trade some prospects to get MLB talent back. If that's the case I'm not in on CA trying to trade away anyone from the farm to fill holes, particularly after the Jimenez deal.
While the system has some depth at several positions (SS / RP) I'm hoping a few of these guys don't get moved.

[ironmike]

Homerawayfromhome, you are against trading prosptects for major league talent?

Why?

What is the intent of this team, to win at the Ml level or track prospects to sell a few books?

We have no impact position players at AA-AAA thanks to the silver tongue Pied-Piper President everyone looks past and wants to give a pass to.

It ain't going to change until the Indians get good baseball people in place under new ownership. Just the other day Shapiro interviewed and in his galaxy of BS he said hiring the manager was going to be one of the biggest things they did this off-season. He believes a new manager can get these players to perform at a hire level and contend. Wow, what he didn't say was how the team was going to fill holes in left field, first base, DH and third base plus re-tool the starting pitching. To contend next season this team needs at least 3 impact position players and one or two starting pitchers depending on Carrasco's health, then more SP depth behind him.

This mess will continue until ownership / baseball evaluators are flushed out. Once it's changed it will take anoter 3-4 years to produce then needed results.

For one thing, won't be spending another dollar of my money with the Cleveland Indians until it happens. Gonna spend all my time bringing up the facts to deter their BS. What was posted 12-18 months ago here is finally coming to light in most media circles. For those that scorned it, more to come.

Time is now to expose Dolan & Shapiro, keep up the pressure, drive down the value of the franchise to make it attractive for new compentent owership.

If you wanna team to be proud of, a winner, stay away from the Indians and force a sale to new ownership. The rewards will come faster if you do.

[timdav]

Will a very good, or even a "star" manager get the most out of any kind of roster...average talent to super-stars? Well, duh: he sure should be able to do that.

But common sense tells you...without enough of the right horses...you're rarely going to win the race.

A burning desire to win a ring and make money....well, THAT'S a great, ideal owner IMHO. Why is it many of us doubt the Dolans really are committed to both? Actions do indeed speak louder than words.

[GeronimoSon]

.....get good baseball people in place under new ownership.....

Blah blah blah.. baseball people.. blah blah blah..spread sheet geeks...

blah blah blah.. galaxy.. blah blah blah.. impact players.. blah blah blah..

blah blah blah.. sell books... blah blah blah...

The broken record skips another 17,349 more times in your world, churning out the same mangled information.. Who was it that hire Mark Shapiro/Chris Antonetti?.. oh.. it was under the Dick Jacobs/John Hart era.. OOOOOOP's.. Find something other than "blah blah blah" to repeat.. Making the same statement(s) over and over and over in a completely vain attempt to convince your massive ego isn't fixing anything.. it isn't being informative.. now, after multiple redundancies, it's gotten boring...

You're not exposing anything or anyone.. You are whining.. The actions of this owner are to shell out millions and millions of dollars to operate the club.. that is "action", not "blah blah blah:..from you....

[homerawayfromhome]

@ Ironmike,

Read that post a bit closer. I said I'm not sure that I have confidence in CA in those type moves.

I think the Tribe should try to acq. several impact pieces, but the question is at what cost? I think they should hold their pieces in the minors unless you think Tony Wolters is going to get the SP you need or the bat. I can't see the Tribe trading away Lindor or Paulino and frankly, I don't think they should unless its in a pkg to get someone like Justin Upton who is young and controllable and still has upside, but also at a price $$$ the Tribe won't likely do. Those kinds of deals usually require now talent and a number of pieces to get it done. The Tribe simply doesn't have the upper level talent to deal to get it done.

Personally, I think the Tribe should try to land 2 of (1 SP, 1 bat): Anibal Sanchez, Francisco Liriano, Jeremy Gutherie, Joe Saunders, Carlos Villanueva, Angel Pagan, Mike Napoli, Delmon Young, Melky Cabrera, Jonny Gomes, Scott Hairston.

None of those guys are studs, but they could be solid vet adds and could help anchor the lineup or rotation. I think it's vital to this team to add at least one anchor type piece on each side of the ball. I'd prefer to see them add Sanchez and Napoli, but even adding guys like Saunders and Pagan would go a long way in stabilizing the rotation and lineup.

The Tribe really doesn't have talent near the bigs to deal. Unless they trade SEVERAL of their top 5 - 10 guys. While there is a ton talent in the lower levels, there's still a huge gap between AA / AAA and the bigs. And the Tribe can't afford to give up talent at this point.

[Rocky55]

Don't think we can target anyone to sign until we see what we can get via trades. Unless there's a player that's reasonably priced who fills a specific need, like Willingham was.

[ironmike]

Regarding the comments made about Tito by the front office, they are pretty much the same they said about Manny Acta when they hired him, so what makes it any different?

[homerawayfromhome]

@ Rocky55,

Agreed, I think the Tribe will be very active this offseason. I completely believe Choo and Perez will both be traded and I think there's a real chance ACab could too. That said any return would affect what the Tribe does this offseason. I think the Winter Mtgs will potentially be the most active we have seen in while.

Since I keep posting the Tribe should so this / or that, here's a few possible offers comparisons sake...

Coco Crisp signed 3 yrs $20.5 mil, 3rd yr is an option for $7.5 mil w/ $1 mil buyout.

Angel Pagan---I think the Tribe could give him a similar offer 3yrs 21 mil.
If the Tribe signed Pagan, Brantley would slide over to LF.

Carlos Quention signed 4 yrs $37 mil, 4th yr is an option for $10 mil w/ $3 mil buyout. (3 yrs / $30mil)
Edwin Encarnacion signed 4 yrs $37 mil, 4th yr is an option for $10 mil w/ $2 mil buyout. (3yrs / $29mil)

Mike Napoli---I think the Tribe could give him a similar offer 4 yrs $37 mil. (3yrs $30 mil, w/ $10mil option)

[daingean]

I would not be opposed to trading some of our surplus SS prospects not named Paulino or Lindor for young ML ready guys (guys like R-Rod, Wolters, J.Ram or Jairo). In reality, those guys will probably only be able to be added to an existing deal sweaten the pot and get another ml ready bat or arm. In reality, few of our A/Rookie league prospects will develop into ML guys so those deals would not bother me. Same could be true of our OF prospects You gotta keep your top prospects though (Lindor and Paulino) because they could be difference makers.

I like Pagan......by a lot over Melky.....better speed and better defense. I actually think the Giants will resign him though.

[Hermie13]

I like Pagan......by a lot over Melky.....better speed and better defense. I actually think the Giants will resign him though.

Agree completely on defense and speed, but personally like Melky's bat more, even with the suspension. In 2011 while playing in our AL Central he was nearly a 20-20 guy with an OPS over .800. That would look very nice in LF. I am a bit interested in seeing how Pagan would hit in a better hitters park though (Mets and Giants don't exactly have hitter's paradises). Could see his power rise some as he did hit 7 of his 8 HRs on the road and posted an OPS over .800. Really think it depends on what you want to priortize more: defense/speed or offense. I personally like Melky overall a bit more, but that could be due to the fact that I think he'll end up signing for less money/years. Really think both would be good fits in Cleveland. I tend to agree with you on Pagan though; I think the Giants end up re-signing him. He's a great fit for that park with the spacious alleys.

[Hermie13]

Don't think we can target anyone to sign until we see what we can get via trades. Unless there's a player that's reasonably priced who fills a specific need, like Willingham was.

I think we can target some starting pitching right away...

I'm not a fan of waiting to target a player til after you see what you get in a trade. I feel that's what the Tribe did last year and it ended up killing their season. Trades never materialized and then players we targeted ended up going elsewhere. I'd rather end up with too much of something than not enough like this season.

[daingean]

I like Pagan......by a lot over Melky.....better speed and better defense. I actually think the Giants will resign him though.

Agree completely on defense and speed, but personally like Melky's bat more, even with the suspension. In 2011 while playing in our AL Central he was nearly a 20-20 guy with an OPS over .800. That would look very nice in LF. I am a bit interested in seeing how Pagan would hit in a better hitters park though (Mets and Giants don't exactly have hitter's paradises). Could see his power rise some as he did hit 7 of his 8 HRs on the road and posted an OPS over .800. Really think it depends on what you want to priortize more: defense/speed or offense. I personally like Melky overall a bit more, but that could be due to the fact that I think he'll end up signing for less money/years. Really think both would be good fits in Cleveland. I tend to agree with you on Pagan though; I think the Giants end up re-signing him. He's a great fit for that park with the spacious alleys.

I am basing my opinions on the fact that I expect Melky w/o PEDs to revert to his .317/.354/.671 line from 2010 or close to it with below average defense (compared to Pagan). But as I said, it will probably be a moot point because I expect Pagan to continue to wear the black and orange.

[timdav]

Just listened to the podcast of Mark Shapiro's appearance on 923TheFan earlier today (Baskin & Phelps).

If you're a person who is even marginally perceptive about people, you could tell MS is obviously gotten very sensitive to the avalanche of public and media criticism heaped upon him and others in the Indians front office.

He took a couple subtle shots at people who have been critical of the FO...saying we just don't understand how difficult building a winning organization is, because we aren't baseball professionals.

Well, Mr. Shapiro, you're right about that. We are just fans. And, the media guys are just media guys.

YOU and your front office are the baseball professionals....you folks are supposed to be able to spot problems before they get too out of hand, and fix them.

You're supposed to know how critical a fertile, productive farm system is for a small-revenue-market baseball team. You guys are supposed to be strong at talent evaluation in all trades....especially the major trades.

Multiple 90+ loss seasons of late, only 1 playoff-series-win since the early 2000's, a farm system that has produced very, very few real solid major league players in more than 10 years?

No, we fans and the media aren't baseball professionals. That's supposed to be your jobs.

All we know is what we see. Maybe we aren't smart enough to know what we're seeing, right?

[Rocky55]

Just listened to the podcast of Mark Shapiro's appearance on 923TheFan earlier today (Baskin & Phelps).

If you're a person who is even marginally perceptive about people, you could tell MS is obviously gotten very sensitive to the avalanche of public and media criticism heaped upon him and others in the Indians front office.

He took a couple subtle shots at people who have been critical of the FO...saying we just don't understand how difficult building a winning organization is, because we aren't baseball professionals.

Well, Mr. Shapiro, you're right about that. We are just fans. And, the media guys are just media guys.

YOU and your front office are the baseball professionals....you folks are supposed to be able to spot problems before they get too out of hand, and fix them.

You're supposed to know how critical a fertile, productive farm system is for a small-revenue-market baseball team. You guys are supposed to be strong at talent evaluation in all trades....especially the major trades.

Multiple 90+ loss seasons of late, only 1 playoff-series-win since the early 2000's, a farm system that has produced very, very few real solid major league players in more than 10 years?

No, we fans and the media aren't baseball professionals. That's supposed to be your jobs.

All we know is what we see. Maybe we aren't smart enough to know what we're seeing, right?

He sure is a sensitive little girl, isn't he? Kinda the type to hire a bunch of like-minded, butt-kissing yes men. No wonder they all seem in lock step. Hopefully Tito's got enough cred to get them to listen to other viewpoints. Not sure Sandy could have.

IF Tito can, he might be worth the contract just for that.

[Rocky55]

Don't think we can target anyone to sign until we see what we can get via trades. Unless there's a player that's reasonably priced who fills a specific need, like Willingham was.

I think we can target some starting pitching right away...

I'm not a fan of waiting to target a player til after you see what you get in a trade. I feel that's what the Tribe did last year and it ended up killing their season. Trades never materialized and then players we targeted ended up going elsewhere. I'd rather end up with too much of something than not enough like this season.

Think we have lots more of value to trade this year.
Pitching is what I'd target first because it seems like the teams we match up with best for trades have some good, young, high end pitching we could grab. I agree with you, we need starters badly.

Also don't believe that waiting caused us to miss on anyone. I don't really believe that we were seriously after Beltran, Willingham, Kubel, etc. & I don't remember them "targeting" any SP's of note.

IMO, bottom line, we can pick up more talented arms via trade & we need talented arms.

[timdav]

Perhaps it is time for me to stop being critical of the Indians ownership and front office...and see what happens this off-season.

We've all had our say...we all know the recent track records....and the strengths and weaknesses of the Indians key FO people and the ownership. I am going to really try to either say nothing or be positive.

They have the heavy burden of beginning to dig this organization out of a very tough hole they are in. And, it'd be nice if MS & CA would stop being so pissy and overly-sensitive when being interviewed and just do their jobs.

In the final analysis...we're pulling for them to fix this thing, so we all can be legitimately excited to be Cleveland Indians fans again.

[daingean]

Perhaps it is time for me to stop being critical of the Indians ownership and front office...and see what happens this off-season.

We've all had our say...we all know the recent track records....and the strengths and weaknesses of the Indians key FO people and the ownership. I am going to really try to either say nothing or be positive.

They have the heavy burden of beginning to dig this organization out of a very tough hole they are in. And, it'd be nice if MS & CA would stop being so pissy and overly-sensitive when being interviewed and just do their jobs.

In the final analysis...we're pulling for them to fix this thing, so we all can be legitimately excited to be Cleveland Indians fans again.

I am hoping the critism acts as a catalyst for them to make moves. No I'm not a professional baseball person but I do know good players when I see them.

For what it's worth, they did offer Beltran a solid deal but he didn't want to come to Cleveland. Willingham would have signed had they offered a 3 year deal. I think this team was burned by the Hafner signing and the Ubaldo trade and was afraid to put their hands in the fire. They need to wake up. I fear that them folding up shop in July will send a message to any would be free agents. Who wants to bust their tails for 4 months, be in competition only to see the FO give up? Their inaction will only make it more difficult for them to lure even the 2nd tier FA's.

Edit: BTW, being sensitive and making excuses are the last things I want to hear. I want to hear "yes we are disappointed also.....and we will do better!!!".... That's what I want to hear. I won't be confident until I see moves. It's up to them to rebuild trust.

[timdav]

Daingean: Agreed, totally.

[Prosecutor]

I fear that them folding up shop in July will send a message to any would be free agents. Who wants to bust their tails for 4 months, be in competition only to see the FO give up? Their inaction will only make it more difficult for them to lure even the 2nd tier FA's.

I don't agree. Free agents will go wherever the money is greenest. If two competing offers are in the same ballpark, they'll consider things like lifestyle and playoff chances or which league they prefer to play in, but generally the dollar rules. I think the hiring of Francona will help convince free agents that the Indians are committed to winning.

As for building the Indians, I favor the wave approach. Try to get a wave of young talent arriving at the major league level at the same time so you can keep a core of young talent together for several years before they hit free agency. IOW, a window of about three years.

Right now the Indians have what looks to be a nice wave forming for about 2015 with Lindor, Paulino, Aguilar, Mitch Brown, and a few others. My approach would be to trade Choo, Perez, and Asdrubal for high upside pitching prospects who are two years away so we get a huge wave of talent arriving about 2015 and under club control for several years after that. That's when you go after a Willingham or a Melky Cabrera.

I just don't see how adding guys like Pagan or Napoli or Gomes is going to accomplish anything. OK, maybe we go from 66 wins to 72 next year. Whoop-de-do.

[GeronimoSon]

I fear that them folding up shop in July will send a message to any would be free agents. Who wants to bust their tails for 4 months, be in competition only to see the FO give up? Their inaction will only make it more difficult for them to lure even the 2nd tier FA's.

I don't agree. Free agents will go wherever the money is greenest. If two competing offers are in the same ballpark, they'll consider things like lifestyle and playoff chances or which league they prefer to play in, but generally the dollar rules. I think the hiring of Francona will help convince free agents that the Indians are committed to winning.

As for building the Indians, I favor the wave approach. Try to get a wave of young talent arriving at the major league level at the same time so you can keep a core of young talent together for several years before they hit free agency. IOW, a window of about three years.

Right now the Indians have what looks to be a nice wave forming for about 2015 with Lindor, Paulino, Aguilar, Mitch Brown, and a few others. My approach would be to trade Choo, Perez, and Asdrubal for high upside pitching prospects who are two years away so we get a huge wave of talent arriving about 2015 and under club control for several years after that. That's when you go after a Willingham or a Melky Cabrera.

I just don't see how adding guys like Pagan or Napoli or Gomes is going to accomplish anything. OK, maybe we go from 66 wins to 72 next year. Whoop-de-do.

I've read this posting about four times..and can't decide if I fully/100 % agree...or find the comments to be short sighted from a competitive perspective for 2013 and entirely insightful for future strategy as it relates to talent.. Perhaps it's both.. Here's what I mean...

First off, "..the folding up shop.." & "..the front office giving up..etc.", comments are beyond untrue & heading toward ridiculous.. There is no way the Indians FO could have accomplished the acquisition of a player or players that would have facilitated the Indians rise to Division Champion. Aside from gutting the farm system in trade, having both Hafner and Sizemore regain super star status and a minor miracle of having Ubaldo and BOB somehow become 14 game winners after the trading deadline, this wasn't happening.. Several posters on this site stated that making a trade at the deadline would prove to be counter productive for the long term.. and they were right. There was no give up or folding. Implying surrender or otherwise, just isn't in the DNA of the Front Office.. never has been..and never will be... and it doesn't matter if it's CA, MS, and or Mr Dolan. Making what turns out to be poor decisions is another matter..

This kind of dove tails into the latter part of your comment: the Napoli, Gomes, etc.acquisition.. and where the conflict starts.. It may be cliche, but winning breeds winning.. If you don't develop and nurture the concept that winning is the only thing, then we're doomed to idiot postings we see from rustymike.. blaming anything and everything.. a lot of bull and no substance..

The question I ask: Aside from the number of "whoop-de-doo" wins, wouldn't winning or the attitude to win be vastly more valuable to the future of the club? It's a tough trade off, to be sure, but, if any one of these players can be "part" of the "wave" you speak of, then shouldn't the Indians go forward?..

Now, onto the suggestion of a strategy that encompasses a "wave of talent" approach.. Aside from the conflict of "winning attitude" it is exactly, no bout a doubt it, what occurred in 1993/4.. The 2015 time frame seems about right. If this time frame can be pushed up or augmented by the trade of 'guys' who will be gone from the Indians in the next 9 months, then those are trades that have to be considered...

Enjoyed the posting. It was positive and insightful. It avoided blame.... keep em coming

[daingean]

First off, "..the folding up shop.." & "..the front office giving up..etc.", comments are beyond untrue & heading toward ridiculous.. There is no way the Indians FO could have accomplished the acquisition of a player or players that would have facilitated the Indians rise to Division Champion. Aside from gutting the farm system in trade, having both Hafner and Sizemore regain super star status and a minor miracle of having Ubaldo and BOB somehow become 14 game winners after the trading deadline, this wasn't happening.. Several posters on this site stated that making a trade at the deadline would prove to be counter productive for the long term.. and they were right. There was no give up or folding. Implying surrender or otherwise, just isn't in the DNA of the Front Office.. never has been..and never will be... and it doesn't matter if it's CA, MS, and or Mr Dolan. Making what turns out to be poor decisions is another matter..

I stand by my comments. The team was in contention....an acquisition may not have made them the favorite to win the division but it would have given them a chance in a weak division. I base this on that the back of our BP (in today's game) corrects some rotation flaws. Plus being in a division race even if you fall short is far better than collapsing for this team now and going forward. If you wait for things to be perfect before you act, you will always talk yourself out of going for it. And you have to say our 2011-12 off-season was a complete failure. Look even if we only won 84 games this year (with an acquistion) we would have been only 4 games behind the Tiggers (who now have the Yankees against the ropes).

I certainly am a guy that believes that we should build through the farm but I also believe in going for it when you have a chance. Most A and A+ ball prospects will never make to the show. I don't have any issues trading any of our A and A+ ball players not named Lindor or Paulino for a bat that will actually help us. I would right now consider only the loss of Lindor and Paulino of the only tradeable prospects (non 2012 draftees) that I would consider "setting us back" for the future. And if the FO is going to tell me "we were in 1st place longer than any other team in our division the last two years" and then not at least make an effort to contend.....That's my definition of either "Folding up shop" or "Blowing smoke up my @!#!!!"

[Hermie13]

First off, "..the folding up shop.." & "..the front office giving up..etc.", comments are beyond untrue & heading toward ridiculous.. There is no way the Indians FO could have accomplished the acquisition of a player or players that would have facilitated the Indians rise to Division Champion. Aside from gutting the farm system in trade, having both Hafner and Sizemore regain super star status and a minor miracle of having Ubaldo and BOB somehow become 14 game winners after the trading deadline, this wasn't happening.. Several posters on this site stated that making a trade at the deadline would prove to be counter productive for the long term.. and they were right. There was no give up or folding. Implying surrender or otherwise, just isn't in the DNA of the Front Office.. never has been..and never will be... and it doesn't matter if it's CA, MS, and or Mr Dolan. Making what turns out to be poor decisions is another matter..

I stand by my comments. The team was in contention....an acquisition may not have made them the favorite to win the division but it would have given them a chance in a weak division. I base this on that the back of our BP (in today's game) corrects some rotation flaws. Plus being in a division race even if you fall short is far better than collapsing for this team now and going forward. If you wait for things to be perfect before you act, you will always talk yourself out of going for it. And you have to say our 2011-12 off-season was a complete failure. Look even if we only won 84 games this year (with an acquistion) we would have been only 4 games behind the Tiggers (who now have the Yankees against the ropes).

I certainly am a guy that believes that we should build through the farm but I also believe in going for it when you have a chance. Most A and A+ ball prospects will never make to the show. I don't have any issues trading any of our A and A+ ball players not named Lindor or Paulino for a bat that will actually help us. I would right now consider only the loss of Lindor and Paulino of the only tradeable prospects (non 2012 draftees) that I would consider "setting us back" for the future. And if the FO is going to tell me "we were in 1st place longer than any other team in our division the last two years" and then not at least make an effort to contend.....That's my definition of either "Folding up shop" or "Blowing smoke up my @!#!!!"

I agree with this, problem was who other than those 2 really would have gotten you anything of value at the deadline?

And people keep mentioning our bullpen....the Indians had the 2nd worst bullpen in the AL this year (Blue Jays). The back of the bullpen was obviously better than the overall bullpen but we still only ranked 12th in the AL (out of 14) from the 7th inning on. Not a single regular bullpen guy had a WHIP under 1.1 this year (Hermann only reliever to make an appearance and be under that mark). The lack of a reliable lefty this year really hurt us. Terrible offense, terrible starting pitching, and a bad bullpen. Fair enough if you think the front office quit but this team was just bad.

I agree a good back end of the bullpen can correct some rotation flaws, but without starters to get us to our ok relievers at the back end up you are in trouble. Plus the bullpen really took a big step back this year. Even Pestano struggled more this year (K-rate down, WHIP up).

Tampa, Oakland and Baltimore...3 small market AL clubs that made the playoffs or nearly did (Tampa had more wins than the Tigers) were ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd as far as bullpens in the AL. And they also ranked 1, 2, and 3 as from the 7th inning on. Cincy (another small market club in the playoffs) was first in both areas this year. Unfortunately the Tribe's bullpen, even the backend just really struggled this year. No consistency and injuries hurt (Raffy Perez).

[Rocky55]

First off, "..the folding up shop.." & "..the front office giving up..etc.", comments are beyond untrue & heading toward ridiculous.. There is no way the Indians FO could have accomplished the acquisition of a player or players that would have facilitated the Indians rise to Division Champion. Aside from gutting the farm system in trade, having both Hafner and Sizemore regain super star status and a minor miracle of having Ubaldo and BOB somehow become 14 game winners after the trading deadline, this wasn't happening.. Several posters on this site stated that making a trade at the deadline would prove to be counter productive for the long term.. and they were right. There was no give up or folding. Implying surrender or otherwise, just isn't in the DNA of the Front Office.. never has been..and never will be... and it doesn't matter if it's CA, MS, and or Mr Dolan. Making what turns out to be poor decisions is another matter..

I stand by my comments. The team was in contention....an acquisition may not have made them the favorite to win the division but it would have given them a chance in a weak division. I base this on that the back of our BP (in today's game) corrects some rotation flaws. Plus being in a division race even if you fall short is far better than collapsing for this team now and going forward. If you wait for things to be perfect before you act, you will always talk yourself out of going for it. And you have to say our 2011-12 off-season was a complete failure. Look even if we only won 84 games this year (with an acquistion) we would have been only 4 games behind the Tiggers (who now have the Yankees against the ropes).

I certainly am a guy that believes that we should build through the farm but I also believe in going for it when you have a chance. Most A and A+ ball prospects will never make to the show. I don't have any issues trading any of our A and A+ ball players not named Lindor or Paulino for a bat that will actually help us. I would right now consider only the loss of Lindor and Paulino of the only tradeable prospects (non 2012 draftees) that I would consider "setting us back" for the future. And if the FO is going to tell me "we were in 1st place longer than any other team in our division the last two years" and then not at least make an effort to contend.....That's my definition of either "Folding up shop" or "Blowing smoke up my @!#!!!"

I agree with this, problem was who other than those 2 really would have gotten you anything of value at the deadline?

And people keep mentioning our bullpen....the Indians had the 2nd worst bullpen in the AL this year (Blue Jays). The back of the bullpen was obviously better than the overall bullpen but we still only ranked 12th in the AL (out of 14) from the 7th inning on. Not a single regular bullpen guy had a WHIP under 1.1 this year (Hermann only reliever to make an appearance and be under that mark). The lack of a reliable lefty this year really hurt us. Terrible offense, terrible starting pitching, and a bad bullpen. Fair enough if you think the front office quit but this team was just bad.

I agree a good back end of the bullpen can correct some rotation flaws, but without starters to get us to our ok relievers at the back end up you are in trouble. Plus the bullpen really took a big step back this year. Even Pestano struggled more this year (K-rate down, WHIP up).

Tampa, Oakland and Baltimore...3 small market AL clubs that made the playoffs or nearly did (Tampa had more wins than the Tigers) were ranked 1st, 2nd and 3rd as far as bullpens in the AL. And they also ranked 1, 2, and 3 as from the 7th inning on. Cincy (another small market club in the playoffs) was first in both areas this year. Unfortunately the Tribe's bullpen, even the backend just really struggled this year. No consistency and injuries hurt (Raffy Perez).

Daingean: Amen. Contend farther into the season, bigger crowds, more buckage, get better players, contend farther into the season; sensing a trend here.

I don't want to lose Ronny Rod, who I half kiddingly, earlier in the season, called the RH power bat we've been waiting for. BUT, if he's in a package for an established RH power bat, or even a good MOR SP, I'm all in. For me, even Lindor can be had. Not Palino though.

Hermie, really, "bad bullpen"? Crappy old Pestano with only a 1.100 WHIP, a 9.8 K/9, an ERA+ of 152. Tony Sipp was the only guy in the pen, other tha Kid Cody, who had a WHIP of over 1.200 or an ERA+ of under 109.

Glass 3/4 full. If the rest of the team was as good as the pen we'd still be playing.

[GeronimoSon]

Rocky.. on the whole, including the wonderful contributions by the Dan Wheelers and Scott Maines out of the pen, the Bullpen does have poor numbers. That said.. the Indians relied on Chris Perez, Vinnie Pestano, Joe Smith, Tony Sipp and to a lesser or later extent, Kid Cody and Esmil Rogers for their pen. For the most part, these six guys were pretty darn strong.. when you add in the contributions from some of the other guys..then, due to the ease by which a poor outing can bloat numbers for a bullpen, the results are skewed in a bad way..

You are correct in stating the pen was a strength.. just not all of it. and not all the time...

[homerawayfromhome]

First, I agree with Geronimo Son... It is an over used cliche at times, but I think there's also truth in the comments winning breeds winning. This team needs a cpl of pieces to supplement the lineup that currently exists. That said, we also know there are moving parts such as Choo who is likely dealt and Hafner who's return is questionable at best. That's where you sign guys like maybe Scott Hairston- RF/LF/CF/DH or Jonny Gomes- LF/RF/DH who could be a piece in the OF but also offer solid (not spectacular) vets with the ability to hit / DH. I'd also mention Delmon Young who can man LF/DH.

I think the Tribe should look to add at least 2 OF this offseason. One to replace Choo and another to fill either CF or LF with Brantley playing the other pos. I don't think it would be out of the question to focus on a guy like Angel Pagan, I know the Giants will want to resign him but I'd make him a serious offer. I used Coco Crisp as a comparison who pretty much got 3yrs / $21 mil last yr. I'd use this as a starting point with a 3 yr /$24 mil offer or even try to acq. Crisp from the A's who have a log jam of players in the OF. The Tribe needs a cpl solid pieces to add to the lineup preferably one / two more who could anchor the lineup. Pagan, or Crisp could go a long ways in stabilizing the lineup.

I don't think it would be outrageous to see the Tribe bring in one of these guys (Haiston / Gomes or Delmon Young) while at the same time looking to make a move on a guy through trades I've mentioned time and again like Justin Upton, Young, Kubel, Parra, Duda.
If a guy like Ike Davis is on the table the Tribe has to seriously pursue the power bat to add a that component to the lineup, particularly when it fills a position of need.

The Tribe needs to add at least 1 solid SP. Guys like Gutherie, Liriano, and Saunders could likely be around the Tribes price range. A couple rebound candidates I think the Tribe will give a look too, Joe Blanton, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Jorge DelaRosa, Jonathon Sanchez, Ervin Santana maybe Dan Haren too. Anibal Sanchez would be a great add, but I think the mkt will be very stiff to get him. It would likely make the Tribe uncomfortable to spend to what it could cost to get him.

There's plenty of work the Tribe has to do, and all of my suggestions are just that... Suggestions and speculation, truth is the tribe will be active and aggressive this offseason and moves like these shouldn't be ruled out. In fact I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that the Tribe will move both Choo and Perez this offseason. With that said the returns will likely influence what they do this offseason in FA. For instance if they acq. 2 starting pitchers they will likely focus on adding a cpl bats or if they add 2 bats then they will likely focus on adding 2 pitchers. It's more likely they try to pull 1 SP and 1 bat out of those kind of deals, with a cpl other worthwhile prospects too.

[GeronimoSon]

Speculation.. or is it really just 'guessing'?? could be bofe...

At one of those message board/rumor sites a Saint Louis Cardinal/Boston Red Sox trade was proposed. Of course, like so many of those trades, the author has too few brains and too much passion for his team to realize the Cardinals aren't getting Dustin Pedroia for Peter Kozma.. It's just not going to happen.. The trade intrigued because it dove tailed nicely in what the Indians have as 'excess' (expiring contract of Shin-soo Choo, RP's & middle infielders) and what these two clubs may be interested in acquiring.. With that said, here is a three way trade:

Indians get: Matt Adams, Oscar Taveras, Michael Wacha, & Xander Bogaerts

Red Sox get: Shin-soo Choo & Joe Kelly,

Cardinals get: Asdrubal Cabrera, Chris Perez & Daniel Bard

While trades like this are typically too complex (read: very low likelihood of happening), it does illustrate where the needs of the clubs are: The Cardinals need a middle infielder (Droobs is actually a better 2B, than SS, but has played both spots), a back of the pen arm and and upside RP. Daniel Bard may be replaced in this "speculative" mess by someone like Allen Webster or Brandon Workman from the Red Sox. The Red Sox need a ML SP and an impact OF'er. The Indians need just about everything other than a second baseman. With Choo & Droobs sent away, Taveras & Bogaerts can immediately replace them while Matt Adams would take over at 1B and Michael Wacha (a very underrated/prospect SP, imho) brought into the Indians minor league system as a potential FOR SP...

Who would balk at this trade first?.. could be the Indians. They're giving up a LOT for four truly unproven players. It's also possible that that Droobs & Shin-soo Choo could flip thereby coupling Droobs with Pedroia in Boston while adding Choo to the OF in St Louis. St Louis may look at giving up Michael Wacha as too much for too little time with Droobs.. IDK..just speculation...

[homerawayfromhome]

Is Wacha tradable yet? i think the new CBA kept the old 1 yr rule. Maybe I'm wrong on this one but I'd expect more pieces for those three. I do think its realistic that the Tribe gets involved in 2/3 deals. They will be aggressive, I'm guessing they land 2 good FA and maybe a role player or two and look to add another bat or SP too through trades that are ready now.

[Hermie13]

Hermie, really, "bad bullpen"? Crappy old Pestano with only a 1.100 WHIP, a 9.8 K/9, an ERA+ of 152. Tony Sipp was the only guy in the pen, other tha Kid Cody, who had a WHIP of over 1.200 or an ERA+ of under 109.

Glass 3/4 full. If the rest of the team was as good as the pen we'd still be playing.

ha, well the bullpen ranked 13th in the AL....the rotation ranked 13th in the AL....and the offense ranked 13th in the AL.....and we finished with the 13th best record in the AL.....but yeah, if the rest of the team was as "good" as our bullpen we'd still be playing now


And not sure why you just called Pestano crappy. I know he took a step back like I said, but hardly crappy. Just not as good as 2011 when his K-rate was over 12, his ERA+ was 170, his K/BB ratio was lower, hits per 9 was lower, WHIP was lowe....sorry, but like I said, Pestano took a step back this year. Still our best reliever no question, but the rest of the pen took a step back with him from last year. You must have watched a different team than me this year if you didn't see that. Sure, looking at WHIP only the bullpen was better, but still only 8th (bottom half of the league), which was a big drop off from last year when we ranked 3rd. What WHIP doesn't show is how hard the pen was knocked around as they allowed the 2nd most extra base hits of any bullpen (better than Toronto again).

ha, and you're forgetting about half the pen there. Other releivers with WHIPs over 1.20: Barnes, Ascensio, Accardo, Wheeler, Hagadone, Seddon, Maine. Sure most of these guys were cut or aren't suppose to help in the future but fact is they were in the pen and were a huge problem. 4 lefties in that group, 2 of which were supposed to really help (Hagadone and Barnes). Only lefty that pitched out of the pen this year to post a WHIP under 1.2 was Raffy Perez and he didn't even throw 8 innings.

I will give you that one can argue the bullpen was the "brightest" spot of this team this season....but it was still bad. Pestano, Smith and CP had good years and Esmil showed promise but unfortunately you can't run those big 3 out every game.

Also....All 7 of the A's top bullpen guys had WHIPs uner 1.20 and ERA+s over 130. Rays had only 2 of their top 7 with WHIPs over 1.2 (none over 1.25) and only 1 with an ERA+ under 126...Fansworth who posted a sub 1.0 WHIP. The Reds did have a few guys over 1.2 WHIPs...but no one with an ERA+ under 123 among their top 8 relievers. All of the orioles top 5 relievers had ERA+s over 160....not a single Indians reliever did that this year. Those are 4 small market clubs in the playoffs or near it that had much, much better bullpens than the Tribe this year.

I do think the pen can be a strength going into 2013, but c'mon, it struggled this year.

[Hermie13]

Is Wacha tradable yet? i think the new CBA kept the old 1 yr rule. Maybe I'm wrong on this one but I'd expect more pieces for those three. I do think its realistic that the Tribe gets involved in 2/3 deals. They will be aggressive, I'm guessing they land 2 good FA and maybe a role player or two and look to add another bat or SP too through trades that are ready now.

The 6 month as a PTBNL rule is still in effect I believe so he could technically be traded sometime this winter but we wouldn't be able to actually get him til this summer. Not sure the Tribe would go that route though. That's an awful long time to either have a pitcher not pitch or to still pitch and risk an injury (then be stuck with an injured player in a huge trade).

[daingean]

Is Wacha tradable yet? i think the new CBA kept the old 1 yr rule. Maybe I'm wrong on this one but I'd expect more pieces for those three. I do think its realistic that the Tribe gets involved in 2/3 deals. They will be aggressive, I'm guessing they land 2 good FA and maybe a role player or two and look to add another bat or SP too through trades that are ready now.

The 6 month as a PTBNL rule is still in effect I believe so he could technically be traded sometime this winter but we wouldn't be able to actually get him til this summer. Not sure the Tribe would go that route though. That's an awful long time to either have a pitcher not pitch or to still pitch and risk an injury (then be stuck with an injured player in a huge trade).

It's crazy that you can trade a "competitive balance pick" but not trade someone that you drafted and signed.....

6 months of bullpen work will not progress a pitcher....needs games.

My preference is to trade for SP that are close to the majors (AAA or above) as I do not trust this organization to develop an impact starter without moving them to the BP. They have their chance to regain my confidence with Howard, Brown, Lovegrove, Sisco, and others. I don't mind them spending a 2nd rounder or after on SP but I'm not for them drafting one in the 1st round until they prove they can develop one. I consider 1st rounders to be impact players.

[homerawayfromhome]

daingean: "My preference is to trade for SP that are close to the majors (AAA or above) as I do not trust this organization to develop an impact starter without moving them to the BP. They have their chance to regain my confidence with Howard, Brown, Lovegrove, Sisco, and others. I don't mind them spending a 2nd rounder or after on SP but I'm not for them drafting one in the 1st round until they prove they can develop one. I consider 1st rounders to be impact players."


That's why I think the Dbax would be a great trade partner with the Tribe, they have a number of arms that they could move....
Bauer, Bradley, Corbin, Skaggs, maybe Chafin and they could potentially move an OF or two, and Wheeler or Davidson to play 1b.
They need a SS and a 3b.

[Hermie13]

It's crazy that you can trade a "competitive balance pick" but not trade someone that you drafted and signed.....

6 months of bullpen work will not progress a pitcher....needs games.

My preference is to trade for SP that are close to the majors (AAA or above) as I do not trust this organization to develop an impact starter without moving them to the BP. They have their chance to regain my confidence with Howard, Brown, Lovegrove, Sisco, and others. I don't mind them spending a 2nd rounder or after on SP but I'm not for them drafting one in the 1st round until they prove they can develop one. I consider 1st rounders to be impact players.

I agree with you on trades. I could be way off, but I fully believe this new rule that allows trading of competitive balance picks is sort of a trial run of sorts that could eventually lead to the trading of more picks or allowing the trading of players that have been recently drafted.

[homerawayfromhome]

I'm curious if the Tribe will have any interest in some of these guys that are getting pushed through waivers like Che Hsaun Lin, 24 yo CF from the RedSox. The RH hitting CF made his big league debut this yr hitting .250 in 12 at bats all 3 hits were singles. Lin could offer depth to the Tribe, in an area of weakness. If anything he could be a guy with a little upside but also provide some org. depth at a position of need. They'd have to clear a spot for him, but he could be worth a flier.

[Rocky55]

Hermie, really, "bad bullpen"? Crappy old Pestano with only a 1.100 WHIP, a 9.8 K/9, an ERA+ of 152. Tony Sipp was the only guy in the pen, other tha Kid Cody, who had a WHIP of over 1.200 or an ERA+ of under 109.

Glass 3/4 full. If the rest of the team was as good as the pen we'd still be playing.

ha, well the bullpen ranked 13th in the AL....the rotation ranked 13th in the AL....and the offense ranked 13th in the AL.....and we finished with the 13th best record in the AL.....but yeah, if the rest of the team was as "good" as our bullpen we'd still be playing now


And not sure why you just called Pestano crappy. I know he took a step back like I said, but hardly crappy. Just not as good as 2011 when his K-rate was over 12, his ERA+ was 170, his K/BB ratio was lower, hits per 9 was lower, WHIP was lowe....sorry, but like I said, Pestano took a step back this year. Still our best reliever no question, but the rest of the pen took a step back with him from last year. You must have watched a different team than me this year if you didn't see that. Sure, looking at WHIP only the bullpen was better, but still only 8th (bottom half of the league), which was a big drop off from last year when we ranked 3rd. What WHIP doesn't show is how hard the pen was knocked around as they allowed the 2nd most extra base hits of any bullpen (better than Toronto again).

ha, and you're forgetting about half the pen there. Other releivers with WHIPs over 1.20: Barnes, Ascensio, Accardo, Wheeler, Hagadone, Seddon, Maine. Sure most of these guys were cut or aren't suppose to help in the future but fact is they were in the pen and were a huge problem. 4 lefties in that group, 2 of which were supposed to really help (Hagadone and Barnes). Only lefty that pitched out of the pen this year to post a WHIP under 1.2 was Raffy Perez and he didn't even throw 8 innings.

I will give you that one can argue the bullpen was the "brightest" spot of this team this season....but it was still bad. Pestano, Smith and CP had good years and Esmil showed promise but unfortunately you can't run those big 3 out every game.

Also....All 7 of the A's top bullpen guys had WHIPs uner 1.20 and ERA+s over 130. Rays had only 2 of their top 7 with WHIPs over 1.2 (none over 1.25) and only 1 with an ERA+ under 126...Fansworth who posted a sub 1.0 WHIP. The Reds did have a few guys over 1.2 WHIPs...but no one with an ERA+ under 123 among their top 8 relievers. All of the orioles top 5 relievers had ERA+s over 160....not a single Indians reliever did that this year. Those are 4 small market clubs in the playoffs or near it that had much, much better bullpens than the Tribe this year.

I do think the pen can be a strength going into 2013, but c'mon, it struggled this year.

Hermie, Hermie, Hermie; where do I start? It's partly my fault, assuming you would catch the sarcasm re "Crappy old Pestano" so I'll just say: I was being sarcastic.

Also, re "Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians", I'm assuming most of the "other half" of the pen that you cited won't be here next season. So, you're right, those guys sucked. The guys we're keeping mostly didn't. They were mostly pretty great, IMO*. I wouldn't swear to it because you'd just look it up & tell me I'm wrong, but I seemed like the pen shared the Post-July Malaise that hit the rest of the team, at least to a degree. Vague enough?

Third, those pens you cited are great too. Better than ours. But, maybe the 13th best pen this year is analagous to being 13th in the Kentucky Derby, still a pretty good horse. The position players/offense were analagous to finishing 13th in a $1000 claimer at Thistledown. The SP's would be 13th in the Matinee Trot at Beautiful Raceway Park in Toledo. So you see, if all three of those areas of the team were analagous to being the 13th finisher in the Kentucky Derby, two of those areas would be improved; IMO*

In a nutshell, half of our pen was crappy in '12, most of the offense was crappy, & IMO*, every one of the SP's were crappy. Sense of proportion, okay.

Good news is that we're now dicussing the 2013 Cleveland Indians so we can assume, maybe*, as I mentioned earlier, that the bad half of the pen will be replaced & some of the bad position players will. Wouldn't bet anything on the rotation though.

*Hermie necessitated qualifier.

[GoTribe028]

Haven't seen this discussed in the thread yet so forgive me if I missed it. Jon Heyman wrote yesterday that some feel the Indians are now "a serious threat" to sign Kevin Youkilis now that Francona is on board. He admits its all speculation at this point but I know many are curious to see who may be willing to play for Francona.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I do believe Youk can be useful. Just not much more than that. I don't want him playing everyday at 3rd or 1st (ok, maybe split some time at 1st/DH) and I wouldn't give him anything beyond a 1 year deal. But Youk fills the role of players I hope the Indians don't focus on this offseason. I want them to move away from vets clearly on the back 9.

Tony's tweet the other morning shines a little light that the Indians are willing to try a new approach to this offseason and I for one, and all for it.

EDIT: Also appears Sandy Alomar is sticking around & Brad Mills is close to being added to Francona's staff. Looks like Bruce Fields and Steve Smith are both gone already.

[GeronimoSon]

Hermie, really, "bad bullpen"? Crappy old Pestano with only a 1.100 WHIP, a 9.8 K/9, an ERA+ of 152. Tony Sipp was the only guy in the pen, other tha Kid Cody, who had a WHIP of over 1.200 or an ERA+ of under 109.

Glass 3/4 full. If the rest of the team was as good as the pen we'd still be playing.

ha, .....*Hermie necessitated qualifier.

By a vote of the board participants (read: posters)... It has been designated that all future posting that use "crappy old" sarcasm to make a point will be designated with an "...HNQ...". That is all..

[GeronimoSon]

Haven't seen this discussed in the thread yet so forgive me if I missed it. Jon Heyman wrote yesterday that some feel the Indians are now "a serious threat" to sign Kevin Youkilis now that Francona is on board. He admits its all speculation at this point but I know many are curious to see who may be willing to play for Francona.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I do believe Youk can be useful. Just not much more than that. I don't want him playing everyday at 3rd or 1st (ok, maybe split some time at 1st/DH) and I wouldn't give him anything beyond a 1 year deal. But Youk fills the role of players I hope the Indians don't focus on this offseason. I want them to move away from vets clearly on the back 9.

Tony's tweet the other morning shines a little light that the Indians are willing to try a new approach to this offseason and I for one, and all for it.

EDIT: Also appears Sandy Alomar is sticking around & Brad Mills is close to being added to Francona's staff. Looks like Bruce Fields and Steve Smith are both gone already.

Hmmmm.... What is it that you're all for?. Getting Youk, but not using him much? or maximizing signings to one year? or not getting veteran role players? or do you prefer to only play the front 9 of golf courses?..

[GeronimoSon]

I'm curious if the Tribe will have any interest in some of these guys that are getting pushed through waivers like Che Hsaun Lin, 24 yo CF from the RedSox. The RH hitting CF made his big league debut this yr hitting .250 in 12 at bats all 3 hits were singles. Lin could offer depth to the Tribe, in an area of weakness. If anything he could be a guy with a little upside but also provide some org. depth at a position of need. They'd have to clear a spot for him, but he could be worth a flier.

There are usually reasons why a 24 year old guy is put through waivers (irrevocable)..In Lin's case, it's because he's got to go a ways to get allllllll the way up to being a poor player. He doesn't offer any upside in any category of play..he doesn't hit for average..he doesn't hit for power.. he doesn't play stellar defense.. he's doesn't possess blazing speed on the base paths.. he doesn't throw particularly well.. In short, he'd just be taking up a "crappy old" roster spot on a class A club.. (HNQ)...

[GoTribe028]

Hmmmm.... What is it that you're all for?. Getting Youk, but not using him much? or maximizing signings to one year? or not getting veteran role players? or do you prefer to only play the front 9 of golf courses?..

Nice, can't even respond to a post without acting like a troll.

I said Youk isn't worth anything beyond a 1 year deal and that I hope the Indians stay away from veterans who are on the decline. Youk isn't worthy of a role beyond a part time role.

Unless of course you enjoy the Indians constantly ignoring the real problems. Just keep plugging in former Boston Red Sox in the final days of there careers and tell the fans that this is how to be competitive.

[homerawayfromhome]

@ Geronimo Son,
I knew Lin was a slap hitter at best and the Red Sox had been largely disappointed with him, just throwing him out there. Is Francona familiar with him? ---He could be a guy they stash in AAA. I'd rather see some young guys ran through as roster fodder then some of the retreads they brought in. That said he'd be a guy that would get DFA rather qkly so it's a moot point, part of the reason I tempered that post w/ curious if the Tribe was looking at those types.
I was really getting at are some of these guys worth picking up at this point...guys like Sandy Rosario who posted decent numbers with the Marlins or Cory Wade who also posted some decent numbers in the past w/ NYY. I don't have the opportunity to watch much baseball outside of the Tribe honestly as a GS there isn't much time in the day. But following the Tribe is my other passion.