Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

[Hermie13]

The following list is comprised of players due raises for 2013.

Salary Increases:
Asdrubal Cabrera will receive a $2 mil base salary increase.
Carlos Santana will receive a $50k base salary increase.

Arb Eligible:
Masterson $3.85 mil in '12 arb 2
Smith $1.75 mil in '12 arb 3
Raffy Perez $2.05 mil arb 3
Hannahan $1.135 mil arb 2
LaPorta arb 1 eligible
Marson arb 1 eligible
Sipp arb 1 eligible
Brantley super two status
Slowey arb 1 eligible

Brantley is actually not slated for Super Two status. I know I (and others) mentioned him as one before but sounds like he'll miss the cutoff but a few days, same with Esmil Rogers (who was actually closer than Brantley). Matt LaPorta also will not be arby eligible due to being the minors long enough this year. May save him from a non-tender.

Also Slowey is not arby 1 eligible as he made $2.75M this year as an arby guy. Even though he won't be due a big raise in his 3rd time thru arbitration, he is a lock to be non-tendered IMO.

One guy who is arby eligible not mentioned is Brent Lillibridge. Personally would say non-tender him but shouldn't cost much (no more than Hanny did this year).

Raffy Perez is also technically going to his 4th arbitration (was also a Super Two guy), though that's a bit nitpicky (Chris Perez is also an arby 3 guy).

[Hermie13]

I've been making a quick look over the Tribes payroll for 2012. The following list(s) are players and the contract value that is no longer with the team, others are players who are likely to be moved, let go, etc during the offseason.

Trades:
Choo $4.9 mil... He is arb 3 eligible
Chris Perez $4.5 mil... He is arb 2 eligible

Options:
Hafner $13 mil w/ $2.75 mil option for '13 a net savings of $10.25 mil
Hernandez $2.5 mil w/ a $6 mil option w/ no buyout, the Tribe can simply opt out
Jimenez $4.75 mil w/ a $5.75 mil option for '13 w/ a $1 mil buyout and $8 mil player option for '14

Arb Eligible:
Raffy Perez $2.05 mil... Arb 3 eligible
Slowey $2.75 mil... Arb 1 eligible... The Tribe paid $1.5 mil of his salary in '12
Hannahan $1.135 mil... Arb 2 eligible

Free Agents:
Kotchman $3 mil
Sizemore $5 mil

Already Gone:
Damon $1.25 mil
Duncan $500 k
Lopez $800 k
Lowe $5 mil
Wheeler $900 k

The total payroll removed if all of these contracts are no longer on the books for 2013 would net a savings of $46,185,000.

Still say Ubaldo is a near lock to be back. Also think you're $46M savings number is very misleading. No way was the Tribe planning on paying Hafner $13M next year so that "savings" from declinging his option was already planned for. Same is likely with Carmona though there was a chance with him I guess. Also with Fausto is that he did not make $2.5M this year. That was his base pay but he was not paid will on the restricted list. Not sure he even got $1M this year. We really didn't save any on Duncan either as I don't believe his salary was fully guaranteed as a pre-arby guy and we called someone up making virtually the same amount. Would also be pretty surprised if Raffy was non-tendered as it appears you're suggesting. Rough year but lefty relievers are typically in high demand and the Tribe isn't exactly overflowing with them.

[homerawayfromhome]

My point was the Tribe could have as much as $46 mil to spend if they keep the same payroll and move these contracts. Although its more likely that the Tribe has between $30-$40 mil to spend. I qualify that, simply bc i seriously doubt its really that much. I actually think they will pickup Jimenez and offer arb to guys like Hannahan and Raffy Perez who have produced sound results in the past but IF Raffy Perez requires surgery they will decline his arb and let him walk. I thInk Hannahan still has value to this team.
I completely forgot about Brent Lillibridge although I really don't think he's consequential to the discussion. Even if they bring him back, he won't make much. Ill go back and fix the earlier errors.

Off the books in 2013...
Hafner $10.25 mil
Sizemore $5 mil
Lowe $5 mil
Kotchman $3 mil
Slowey $1.5 mil
Damon $1.25 mil
Wheeler 900k
Lopez 800k
Duncan 500k

Which totals $28.2 mil. The Tribe could increase that amount by trading Choo, CPerez, declining Hernandez and Jimenez, and not offer arb to Hannahan and RPerez.

ACab is due a $2 mil pay increase. Santana will receive a 50k pay increase. Masterson, Choo and CPerez are the most notable to receive arb pay increases.

The Tribe could have a fairly good amount of cash to spend if they are willing to dip their toes in the FA / trade mkt. I think unless they go complete melt down then they will be in the mkt to add a cpl of sound guys in the offseason.

[GeronimoSon]

Maybe the Indians can go back to the Rockies and get Drew Pomeranz back:

From Patrick Saunders of the Denver Post..

.Will Drew Pomeranz blossom? The young left-hander seems to have it all — size, a 94 mph fastball, a sharp curveball. But he's pitched terribly in the second half, and the Rockies can't seem to get their message through to him. Namely, throw strikes! He remains a huge project...

Maybe Pomeranz feels more comfortable not throwing strikes while in our wigwam? like his buddies, FAUSTO and UBALDO?..

[Hermie13]

My point was the Tribe could have as much as $46 mil to spend if they keep the same payroll and move these contracts. Although its more likely that the Tribe has between $30-$40 mil to spend. I qualify that, simply bc i seriously doubt its really that much. I actually think they will pickup Jimenez and offer arb to guys like Hannahan and Raffy Perez who have produced sound results in the past but IF Raffy Perez requires surgery they will decline his arb and let him walk. I thInk Hannahan still has value to this team.
I completely forgot about Brent Lillibridge although I really don't think he's consequential to the discussion. Even if they bring him back, he won't make much. Ill go back and fix the earlier errors.

Off the books in 2013...
Hafner $10.25 mil
Sizemore $5 mil
Lowe $5 mil
Kotchman $3 mil
Slowey $1.5 mil
Damon $1.25 mil
Wheeler 900k
Lopez 800k
Duncan 500k

Which totals $28.2 mil. The Tribe could increase that amount by trading Choo, CPerez, declining Hernandez and Jimenez, and not offer arb to Hannahan and RPerez.

ACab is due a $2 mil pay increase. Santana will receive a 50k pay increase. Masterson, Choo and CPerez are the most notable to receive arb pay increases.

The Tribe could have a fairly good amount of cash to spend if they are willing to dip their toes in the FA / trade mkt. I think unless they go complete melt down then they will be in the mkt to add a cpl of sound guys in the offseason.

Adding in arby raises though will decrease that amount down to around $17M. Decent amount of change but was just saying that $46M in savings is pretty misleading was more my point.

Definitely going to be interesting this winter to see how the Tribe approaches it. Think Perez will be moved (thought so beven before his last remarks). Choo will be interesting. Again, think there is zero chance Ubaldo's option is declined, but maybe the Indians trade him. $5.75M is not bad and some team (especially an NL team) could take a chance on him.

[GeronimoSon]

My point was the Tribe could have as much as $46 mil to spend if they keep the same payroll and move these contracts. Although its more likely that the Tribe has between $30-$40 mil to spend. I qualify that, simply bc i seriously doubt its really that much. I actually think they will pickup Jimenez and offer arb to guys like Hannahan and Raffy Perez who have produced sound results in the past but IF Raffy Perez requires surgery they will decline his arb and let him walk. I thInk Hannahan still has value to this team.
I completely forgot about Brent Lillibridge although I really don't think he's consequential to the discussion. Even if they bring him back, he won't make much. Ill go back and fix the earlier errors.

Off the books in 2013...
Hafner $10.25 mil
Sizemore $5 mil
Lowe $5 mil
Kotchman $3 mil
Slowey $1.5 mil
Damon $1.25 mil
Wheeler 900k
Lopez 800k
Duncan 500k

Which totals $28.2 mil. The Tribe could increase that amount by trading Choo, CPerez, declining Hernandez and Jimenez, and not offer arb to Hannahan and RPerez.

ACab is due a $2 mil pay increase. Santana will receive a 50k pay increase. Masterson, Choo and CPerez are the most notable to receive arb pay increases.

The Tribe could have a fairly good amount of cash to spend if they are willing to dip their toes in the FA / trade mkt. I think unless they go complete melt down then they will be in the mkt to add a cpl of sound guys in the offseason.

Adding in arby raises though will decrease that amount down to around $17M. Decent amount of change but was just saying that $46M in savings is pretty misleading was more my point.

Definitely going to be interesting this winter to see how the Tribe approaches it. Think Perez will be moved (thought so beven before his last remarks). Choo will be interesting. Again, think there is zero chance Ubaldo's option is declined, but maybe the Indians trade him. $5.75M is not bad and some team (especially an NL team) could take a chance on him.

These budget postings are becoming completely pointless at this time. The Indians are going to have too much, too little or just the right amount of money to spend..

..depending


... yes DEPENDING...

on who they target/acquire, if anyone.. The amount involved is immaterial without knowledge of the targets and their price tags... So pick a number and multiply it by ten or divide it by two and you're in the "range".. Dontcha feel better now that you have a hypothetical budgetary range and still no idea who the Indians are targeting?..

[homerawayfromhome]

Your right, the money crunching is useless. I was really trying to gauge how much the Tribe could have to spend. It is somewhat pointless, there's no telling what they will do any how.
I think the only things we can say for certain is that they will decline Travis Hafners option, and it is highly probable that both Choo and Perez are dealt during the winter, my guess at Winter Mtgs when they can drum up interest.

[daingean]

Your right, the money crunching is useless. I was really trying to gauge how much the Tribe could have to spend. It is somewhat pointless, there's no telling what they will do any how.
I think the only things we can say for certain is that they will decline Travis Hafners option, and it is highly probable that both Choo and Perez are dealt during the winter, my guess at Winter Mtgs when they can drum up interest.

I wouldn't say useless but always inaccurate. They certainly will have some money to spend but I'm not sure how much of it they will spend. From what we heard, they had money to offer Beltran a nice contract but he declined and they pocketed most of that money. Unless there is a regime change, I am not even confident that CP or Choo are dealt.

[GeronimoSon]

Your right, the money crunching is useless. I was really trying to gauge how much the Tribe could have to spend. It is somewhat pointless, there's no telling what they will do any how.
I think the only things we can say for certain is that they will decline Travis Hafners option, and it is highly probable that both Choo and Perez are dealt during the winter, my guess at Winter Mtgs when they can drum up interest.

I wouldn't say useless but always inaccurate. They certainly will have some money to spend but I'm not sure how much of it they will spend. From what we heard, they had money to offer Beltran a nice contract but he declined and they pocketed most of that money. Unless there is a regime change, I am not even confident that CP or Choo are dealt.

Unless I/we know who the returning pieces are for either or Choo or CP.. I don't want them to be traded.. Same thing with respect to FAUSTO aka BOB and Ubaldo.. pick up or don't pick up options.. starts with who the Indians have traded for or purchased via free agency (unlikely), that is, who are the replacements? While some of the following have team/mutual options, any one of these Top Ten guys (sort of) would vastly improve the club:

1.Josh Hamilton The # 1 TARGET for any team looking for a slugger.. almost zero chance he'd be wearing Chief Wahoo on his sleeve in 2013 and beyond.. but you can dream..
2.Zack Greinke: The # 1 TARGET for any team looking to upgrade it's starting pitching staff..
3.BJ Upton: Well thought of, defensive CF'er with power, speed and intangibles. If he's only a 'cost money' acquisition, then he fits the bill to a "TEE"
4.Michael Bourn: The fall back to BJ Upton.
5.Kevin Youkilis: Veteran Corner IF'er with pop.. Is clearly on the downside of his career.. No more than a 2 + 1 year contract would be appropriate for him...
6.Jake Peavy: If you can't get Greinke.. Peavy would be a solid second choice..
7.Robinson Cano/Curtis Granderson/Ichiro/Nick Swisher: The Yankee horde that will stay in tact. Ichiro may retire and Swisher could be considered a "possible" provided he's blow away.. the Indians aren't in the "blow away" business.
8.Jonathan Broxoton: Perhaps the best closer coming on the market.. big and strong, a real intimidator
9.Jose Valverde: Papa Gramde may resign with the Tigers.. but, as a FA, he'd be a nice add if Broxton signs elsewhere.
10.Mark Reynolds: This one's for Hermie and ongoing Bromance with Mark Reynolds..

So, these represent the FA portion of the Indians targeted players..thoughts?

[Prosecutor]

I don't see Raffie coming back for over $2 million, not with his age and injury history, and with Hagadone, Sipp, Huff, and Maine in the picture.

I can't see them paying Hannahan more than $1 million after the season he's had. Time to put Lonnie at 3rd every day.

Hernandez won't get $6 million. He'll probably get an invite to camp with a chance to pitch himself onto the roster, but that's it.

Perez and Choo will be traded for prospects, freeing up more money.

The Indians need to put together a pile of money and sign either a FOR type starter to anchor the rotation or a middle-of-the-order right-handed power bat. IOW, put all the available money on an impact player rather than divvy it up for five guys like Kotchman, Lowe, Hernandez, Damon, and Hannahan. They can bring up players like Kluber, Huff, Canzler, and Carrera from the minors and get the same production for a fraction of the cost. They need to change their approach and put all the money on one player like a Josh Willingham or Adam Dunn, just to name a couple of recent acquisitions that paid off for teams in our division.

Unfortunately, the free agent pickings are said to be pretty slim this year, so it may take a trade. But they need a bell cow in both the rotation and the middle of the batting order.

[GoTribe028]

10.Mark Reynolds: This one's for Hermie and ongoing Bromance with Mark Reynolds..

So, these represent the FA portion of the Indians targeted players..thoughts?

You might not like the idea of Mark Reynolds, but he is exactly who I think the Indians will look into.

[Hermie13]

Your right, the money crunching is useless. I was really trying to gauge how much the Tribe could have to spend. It is somewhat pointless, there's no telling what they will do any how.
I think the only things we can say for certain is that they will decline Travis Hafners option, and it is highly probable that both Choo and Perez are dealt during the winter, my guess at Winter Mtgs when they can drum up interest.

I wouldn't say useless but always inaccurate. They certainly will have some money to spend but I'm not sure how much of it they will spend. From what we heard, they had money to offer Beltran a nice contract but he declined and they pocketed most of that money. Unless there is a regime change, I am not even confident that CP or Choo are dealt.

I woudln't even say always inaccurate. The Indians spent about $5M less than I had them projected at this winter...which was the difference in what they offered Carlos Pena and what they gave Kotchman. So my estimates (also in arby estimates) were actually pretty close to what the Indians deemed they could spend. I very easily could be way off this year though, time will tell. The Indians did offer Beltran a big deal but remember that Antonetti said that another move would have had to have been made to make it work financially, so someone making money (like one of the Perez's maybe) would have had to have been traded. So saying the Tribe pocketed most of that money is not entirely accurate.


I'd say the locks are Hafner's option being declined, Fausto's option being declined, Slowey being non-tendered, and Chris Perez being dealt.

[Hermie13]

I don't see Raffie coming back for over $2 million, not with his age and injury history, and with Hagadone, Sipp, Huff, and Maine in the picture.

I can't see them paying Hannahan more than $1 million after the season he's had. Time to put Lonnie at 3rd every day.

Hernandez won't get $6 million. He'll probably get an invite to camp with a chance to pitch himself onto the roster, but that's it.

Perez and Choo will be traded for prospects, freeing up more money.


Unfortunately, the free agent pickings are said to be pretty slim this year, so it may take a trade. But they need a bell cow in both the rotation and the middle of the batting order.

Disagree strongly on Raffy. Unless there's a major arm issue we haven't heard about I can't see him not being brought back. $2.5M isn't cheap but worst case you trade him. Again, lefty relievers don't grow on trees...and the ones you mentioned have all been terrible this year or are roster fillers. I really believe one of the big issues with the pen this year was the lack of a lefty other than Sipp. Went from one of the better bullpens in the AL to the worst this year. We need Raffy back.

I tend to agree on Hanny but Tribe does like his defense. Wouldn't be the worst utility guy though I think you move on too.

Agree completely on Fausto. Option declined and think they try and bring him back. Hopefully on a minor league deal only though...

Think you could see Choo/Perez dealt for more than just prospects though.

Disagree a bit on the free agent crop. I like this winter's much better for the Tribe than last year's crop.

[Hermie13]

10.Mark Reynolds: This one's for Hermie and ongoing Bromance with Mark Reynolds..

So, these represent the FA portion of the Indians targeted players..thoughts?

You might not like the idea of Mark Reynolds, but he is exactly who I think the Indians will look into.

Not much different than Carlos Pena really other than he's right-handed (and younger). Problem though is he isn't a free agent. Probably would have to trade for him and the O's may not give him up.

[Prosecutor]

Disagree strongly on Raffy. Unless there's a major arm issue we haven't heard about I can't see him not being brought back. $2.5M isn't cheap but worst case you trade him. Again, lefty relievers don't grow on trees...

Perez just had shoulder surgery. He got hurt in April but they waited so long because shoulder surgery usually doesn't work out well for pitchers. I think his career is in jeopardy and nobody is going to trade for him.

From the PD article:

Perez made just over $2 million this year. He's eligible for arbitration again this winter.

Soloff said the Indians tried "conservative management" of Perez's injury because the outcome of shoulder surgeries "are not exceptionally great in throwing athletes."

If he goes to arbitration I doubt he gets another $2 million. The Tribe just might release him and try to sign him to an incentive deal with a low base.

[homerawayfromhome]

Perez's surgery wasn't serious... (?)

To give that perspective he had weakness in his shoulder, more specifically shoulder blade. When he broke camp with the club throwing 85 it showed one of two things... He was not in pitching shape or he was injured. I think it was the later and then the first.
As for the procedure it was a debridement. More or less it was either a bone spur that needed shaved down which is not uncommon at all, actually a fairly routine procedure, the concern with a pitcher is what in his motion is causing it or is it a natural defect as is the case. My guess is it was more wear, although as a reliever it may have protected him long-term and this is why we see this take place now. Perez is not an extremely hard thrower, so it is likely the process of age and some mileage. Another possible cause of this procedure could have been one to remove loose cartilage. Either way, a shoulder scope is concerning Perez can't afford to lose any velocity even as a lefty.
All that said, I WOULD BE CONCERNED about Perez's shoulder in the future. I know the market is always hard to get lefties so there will be the possibility the Tribe opts to keep Perez, particularly bc he is a Lefty but also bc he has had no significant injury history. With all that said I believe it's a very real possibility they move on from Perez, that could mean the Tribe seeks a lefty back in a deal as part of the return pkg in a trade for say Choo or Chris Perez.
The Indians do benefit from having a number of arms to throw out there as Lefty relievers, Seddon, Huff, Barnes, Hagadone, Maine and Sipp could all compete for 2 spots. The is also a real possibility that guys like Barnes and Huff compete for a BOR spot.

[Hermie13]

Disagree strongly on Raffy. Unless there's a major arm issue we haven't heard about I can't see him not being brought back. $2.5M isn't cheap but worst case you trade him. Again, lefty relievers don't grow on trees...

Perez just had shoulder surgery. He got hurt in April but they waited so long because shoulder surgery usually doesn't work out well for pitchers. I think his career is in jeopardy and nobody is going to trade for him.

From the PD article:

Perez made just over $2 million this year. He's eligible for arbitration again this winter.

Soloff said the Indians tried "conservative management" of Perez's injury because the outcome of shoulder surgeries "are not exceptionally great in throwing athletes."

If he goes to arbitration I doubt he gets another $2 million. The Tribe just might release him and try to sign him to an incentive deal with a low base.

Will depend on the injury but doesn't sound like it was a very major shoulder deal, more a mantanence thing. He'll still get $2M in arby as that's unfornuately how arby works, you almost never see a guy make less no matter how bad/hurt they are. Personally think if the Tribe non-tenders him (still say that's next to zero but may be very wrong) that another team will swoop in and sign him.

[homerawayfromhome]

I think this yr has proved Raffy Perez's worth. Although the Tribe has used several options from the pen, it seems they have really struggled to find a solid replacement. That said there are only a certain number of risks a team such as the Indians can afford. I don't think it's a qk decision. I'd look heavily into the medical side of this bc if his shoulder shows arthritis, impingement or even tendinitis he will likely have more difficulty. Part of a debridement procedure is to smooth out the joint to allow the shoulder to move more freely.

[GeronimoSon]

Well.. Indians haters won't have Manny Acta to kick around any more.. smh...

[daingean]

Well.. Indians haters won't have Manny Acta to kick around any more.. smh...

It appears CA will skate on this one if Dolan's words are true.

"I have great respect for Manny and appreciate the effort he exhibited not only leading our team, but also the contributions he made in our community over the past three years," said Indians CEO Paul Dolan said in the release. "I fully support Chris' decision to make this change and am confident that he will lead a tireless search to find the right individual to lead the club to our ultimate goal of winning the World Series."

[indians1]

The indians have to spend their FA money on pitching. PERIOD !!!!

If they want the fans to believe or hope that this team can contend, they have to find a way to get competent starting pitching in here.

At least 3/5 of this rotation is pure garbage. Ubaldo, fausto, gomez/huff/tomlin/??? These guys suck. Masterson proved for 1 year he could be a starter and so many on this board are convinced he can be a consistent starter based on 1 year.

We do not compete unless we get solid starters in here. Again, what do we have to show for our drafts in 4 years since brad grant showed up? So far= 2 decent players in kipnis and chisenhall. Pomeranz and Alex White look like sub par major leaguers.

Carlos Santana is an above average catcher who puts up good numbers for a catcher but does not put up the numbers needed for this team to compete for the division. Santana is being depended on as our middle of the order power hitter and he hits for crap for 2/3 of the season. The problem with this organization is that they are depending on players at non premium positions to provide the power (SS, C, CF/LF). The problem with the LF/CF is that brantley = while good is not a power hitter.

For brantley to maximize his value, he has to be the leadoff hitter. We need to trade choo and get pitching back. We need to trade perez and get another starter.

We need to get 2 quality starters and the only we get them is by trading away assets that won't help us win a championship.

supposedly this team is deep in relief pitching down in the farm. So trade away from an area of strength and fill a weakness.

They could have gotten major value for choo and masterson/perez at the trading deadline and they stood pat. WHY? What did it accomplish by not trading away guys that won't help you in 2014.?

This team is so far away from competing next year. It is really depressing to see the state of this organization. They are clearly approaching irrelevance like the did prior to the 1990's

[homerawayfromhome]

I agree with the assessment the Tribe is qkly facing complete irrelevance if they don't hit the offseason hard, one of two ways...either sell hard to rebuild this team or remodel by trading a cpl assets and supplementing the roster with several free agents such as Mike Napoli, Anibal Sanchez to name a few.

I think Francona is intrigued by the idea of taking over the Indians, but I'm not confident the Tribe will spend the money to get Francona. If I were Francona I'd require being assistant GM before I'd accept the position, just saying he should require more influence and team control than I think they will be interested in giving.

[GoTribe028]

I agree with the assessment the Tribe is qkly facing complete irrelevance if they don't hit the offseason hard, one of two ways...either sell hard to rebuild this team or remodel by trading a cpl assets and supplementing the roster with several free agents such as Mike Napoli, Anibal Sanchez to name a few.

I think Francona is intrigued by the idea of taking over the Indians, but I'm not confident the Tribe will spend the money to get Francona. If I were Francona I'd require being assistant GM before I'd accept the position, just saying he should require more influence and team control than I think they will be interested in giving.

See this is where Peter Gammons tweets are interesting. He says Francona is more interested in having a good collaborative relationship with the GM of whoever he manages for in the future, rather than a big payday. And each day that goes by more and more people think the Francona to the Indians rumors aren't quite as far fetched as they appear. We'll see.

Would be interesting to see IF Francona actually came on board, what sort of influence he would have on the roster. I could be wrong, but it never seemed like Acta had any sort of say on the roster. I even recall some rumblings that he was not happy about the Johnny Damon signing. We all know, for better or worse, what impact Eric Wedge had on the roster.

Having a little say towards the make up of the roster could be important to Francona but it remains to be seen if he or Sandy Alomar (or anyone) will be given any influence.

EDIT: Ken Rosenthal on The Twitter about 40 minutes ago

Sources: Francona “excited” to interview with #Indians. Close relationships with Shapiro and Antonetti overriding factor.

[timdav]

The Indians are in a very tough position.

Perhaps they feel their best move is to hire Terry Francona, a veteran manager with recent world series success.

Trade Chris Perez & Choo and do the very best they can to pick up 2, maybe 3 quality major league veterans or ready for the majors players of the 4 to 7 key pieces they need in Cleveland.

And, hold off for the free agents after the 2013 season....hoping it's much better than the free agent class of this off-season.

They really don't have anything else of any value to trade...and there's nothing of much significance in at AAA, AA, or even Carolina. The small handful of even remote projectable prospects in the Indians minor league organization is 3 to 5 years away.

So...hold on...be patient...and hope everything falls into place for 2014, 2015, or 2016. Now, that's reality...not just wishing and hoping.

[homerawayfromhome]

I'm starting to wonder myself about Francona, he could be serious and might be apt to take a comfortable position...he has his rings and may just want to take on the challenge, while at the same time having that relationship with Shapiro and CA. They might get him to sign a long deal at a bit of a 'homer' price. As a Tribe fan though you just have to temper any expectations.

[GhostofTedCox]

By having one of the worst records in MLB, the Indians will have a protected 1st round pick in the 2013 amateur draft. This means we could sign Josh Hamilton without giving up a 1st round as compensation.
Maybe we will have Hamilton in for a visit, and wine & dine at the Golden Corral. (Although Hamilton is LH so he is probably not in the plan. Scott Hariston from the Mets seems more our type.)

[Hermie13]

Carlos Santana is an above average catcher who puts up good numbers for a catcher but does not put up the numbers needed for this team to compete for the division. Santana is being depended on as our middle of the order power hitter and he hits for crap for 2/3 of the season. The problem with this organization is that they are depending on players at non premium positions to provide the power (SS, C, CF/LF). The problem with the LF/CF is that brantley = while good is not a power hitter.

For brantley to maximize his value, he has to be the leadoff hitter. We need to trade choo and get pitching back. We need to trade perez and get another starter.

I disagree on Brantley. While I could see him hitting leadoff next year if Choo is traded, I don't see why Brantley has to be the leadoff hitter to maximize his value. His vlaue is that he is one of the best hitters with men on base. He also doesn't walk a ton (though has improved a lot this year). Doesn't strike out a lot either. The way he has hit this year, to maximize his value you should hit him 3rd really. Get him in there with men on base. Even hitting 5th (like he has mostly) is better than leadoff as he should come up with Santana on base a lot. Being a little hard on Santana as well. Obviously struggled this year and didn't meet expectations but hasn't sucked for 2/3rds of the season. A disgustingly bad June after struggling in May but OPS is over .900 in the 2nd half and been over .800 each of the past 3 months. Walked more than he's struck out in the 2nd half. If he can replicate this 2nd half over a full season next year you're looking at a guy hitting nearly .290 with a near .400 OBP and OPS over .900. To me the real question with Santana is do you keep him behind the plate, or do you consider a move to the OF, especially if you deal Choo...

[Hermie13]

By having one of the worst records in MLB, the Indians will have a protected 1st round pick in the 2013 amateur draft. This means we could sign Josh Hamilton without giving up a 1st round as compensation.
Maybe we will have Hamilton in for a visit, and wine & dine at the Golden Corral. (Although Hamilton is LH so he is probably not in the plan. Scott Hariston from the Mets seems more our type.)

Josh Hamilton is the same as Pujols and Fielder from a year ago, 0% chance of the Indians signing him. Our 1st round pick was protected last year so not sure it'll really make a difference this year. Maybe you could say Upton is an extreme possibility for the Indians (still very, very unlikely) and there's a chance he gets an arby offer. With the new arby rules though we'll see fewer guys than ever offered it and the ones that are are gonna be getting big bucks, most likely out of the Tribe's price range.

[daingean]

Carlos Santana is an above average catcher who puts up good numbers for a catcher but does not put up the numbers needed for this team to compete for the division. Santana is being depended on as our middle of the order power hitter and he hits for crap for 2/3 of the season. The problem with this organization is that they are depending on players at non premium positions to provide the power (SS, C, CF/LF). The problem with the LF/CF is that brantley = while good is not a power hitter.

For brantley to maximize his value, he has to be the leadoff hitter. We need to trade choo and get pitching back. We need to trade perez and get another starter.

I disagree on Brantley. While I could see him hitting leadoff next year if Choo is traded, I don't see why Brantley has to be the leadoff hitter to maximize his value. His vlaue is that he is one of the best hitters with men on base. He also doesn't walk a ton (though has improved a lot this year). Doesn't strike out a lot either. The way he has hit this year, to maximize his value you should hit him 3rd really. Get him in there with men on base. Even hitting 5th (like he has mostly) is better than leadoff as he should come up with Santana on base a lot. Being a little hard on Santana as well. Obviously struggled this year and didn't meet expectations but hasn't sucked for 2/3rds of the season. A disgustingly bad June after struggling in May but OPS is over .900 in the 2nd half and been over .800 each of the past 3 months. Walked more than he's struck out in the 2nd half. If he can replicate this 2nd half over a full season next year you're looking at a guy hitting nearly .290 with a near .400 OBP and OPS over .900. To me the real question with Santana is do you keep him behind the plate, or do you consider a move to the OF, especially if you deal Choo...

I think for Brantley to maximize his talents then leadoff is where he'll do it but he has shown to be a better hitter lower in the order. I like Brantley at #2 or #3. He doesn't have the power to drive a clean-up hitter in from 1st base (so 5 or 6 isn't where he's best at) but does have the x-base power to drive a faster runner in from first. I would rather have a 20-30 HR guy (if we had one) hitting in the 5 hole. Just how I like my order.

[GhostofTedCox]

By having one of the worst records in MLB, the Indians will have a protected 1st round pick in the 2013 amateur draft. This means we could sign Josh Hamilton without giving up a 1st round as compensation.
Maybe we will have Hamilton in for a visit, and wine & dine at the Golden Corral. (Although Hamilton is LH so he is probably not in the plan. Scott Hariston from the Mets seems more our type.)

Josh Hamilton is the same as Pujols and Fielder from a year ago, 0% chance of the Indians signing him. Our 1st round pick was protected last year so not sure it'll really make a difference this year. Maybe you could say Upton is an extreme possibility for the Indians (still very, very unlikely) and there's a chance he gets an arby offer. With the new arby rules though we'll see fewer guys than ever offered it and the ones that are are gonna be getting big bucks, most likely out of the Tribe's price range.

Hernie, I only mentioned Hamilton in jest. However, if the Indians wind up hiring Francona, I do predict they will do something unusual.
They might be competitive for a FA you wouldn't expect. Or they might trade and take on a large contract.
If they were gonna do the same old thing, they could have kept Acta.

[homerawayfromhome]

IMO CA is on the hot seat and will look to be both aggressive and creative in getting a decent product on the field. I'm not sure if they still feel they compete next yr or not. I expect we hear more noise from the Tribe than we may expect. ACab and Masterson might be closer to the trade front than we may expect. I'm sure we will hear numerous rumors on both, especially during winter meetings. I'm certain both Chris Perez and Choo will be moved then and for some now talent, with maybe a prospect or two involved. I won't be surprised to see CA open up the check book a bit, but also try to buy low again on a guy like Hernandez...I could see them declining his option then trying resign him for less.

[timdav]

The Cavs have and the Browns will soon have aggressive, wealthy owners who are re-building their teams.....owners who might want to make money, but also are obviously passionate about winning.

I doubt the Indians can successfully keep selling their "pretend contending" too much longer. The fans and media have in huge numbers turned against them....and not just because of a bad 2nd half of 2012. This has been going on for most of the years the Dolans have owned this team.

What they keep saying publically...well, it's like listening to b.s.-ing politicians: promise everything to get your vote, then do little or nothing. We've all heard that tune too long as well.

The Indians organization has so many gaping holes, no reasonable fan expects them to be able to successfully rebuild overnight. But, please: stop the PR-gibberish about "process" and "culture" and just do it: start rebuilding/re-tooling the right way. And, start now.

As a fan I feel like they've stolen our baseball team from us. How many of you guys here on this forum honestly believe the Dolans will fix this thing? Or, will it be more spin and b.s.?

[GeronimoSon]

The Cavs have and the Browns will soon have aggressive, wealthy owners who are re-building their teams.....owners who might want to make money, but also are obviously passionate about winning.

I doubt the Indians can successfully keep selling their "pretend contending" too much longer. The fans and media have in huge numbers turned against them....and not just because of a bad 2nd half of 2012. This has been going on for most of the years the Dolans have owned this team.

What they keep saying publically...well, it's like listening to b.s.-ing politicians: promise everything to get your vote, then do little or nothing. We've all heard that tune too long as well.

The Indians organization has so many gaping holes, no reasonable fan expects them to be able to successfully rebuild overnight. But, please: stop the PR-gibberish about "process" and "culture" and just do it: start rebuilding/re-tooling the right way. And, start now.

As a fan I feel like they've stolen our baseball team from us. How many of you guys here on this forum honestly believe the Dolans will fix this thing? Or, will it be more spin and b.s.?

The Cavs have had an "aggressive" young owner for a few years now.. So nothing new there.. The Browns new owner hasn't shown himself to be anything yet, but, could be aggressive.. There is no question that all three of these men are passionate about winning.. Saying otherwise is pure TRIPE..

In other words, the premise of your comment begins with hyperbole directed in a negative fashion at Mr Dolan.. While this might be your way of "convincing" yourself that the Browns and Cavs are so much better off.. the simple fact of the matter is the Cavs failed <miserably> to win a championship in their respective sports with the VERY BEST player in the game.. and the Browns have been an embarrassment to the city dating back to before Mr Modell was screwed by the county commissioners (Tim Hagen, as chief screwer) and Mayor White, who chose to use the Gateway Bonds / funding to build the Rock & Roll HOF over a shiny new Cleveland Browns stadium..

Is it BS?. maybe..maybe not.. but, to compare the "success" of the Browns to anyone is a JOKE.. IT'S LAUGHABLE and shows a "head in the sand" mentality. You should be ashamed of the Browns, not optimistic and certainly not optimistic in comparison to the Indians. (remember July 4th.. when the Indians were in first place.. and had a bit of a buzz going with the city?.). The Browns are equal to starting a baseball season 0-40 & will reach the half way point in the latest season without the benefit of a "W" against anyone.. A COMPLETE and TOTAL embarrassment. THEY STINK. Oh, & it will be time to fire the coach again.. roll out the 7th version of the five year plan since the Browns return 13 years ago..SMH.. To compare the success of the Cavs..I'd be okay with that. The Cavs did play in the NBA Championship Series, but lost, like the Indians did twice.. Mr Gilbert is a good and passionate owner, but, is restricted (by league rule & location) in his ability to acquire the talent needed to make the Cavs a championship caliber team.. but he's building it. They will be an exciting and entertaining team in the coming season..

The PR stuff, is exactly as you've described. I'm not sure what the Indians could say other than it is their process and their spin.. and their B.S... comment?

[daingean]

The Cavs have and the Browns will soon have aggressive, wealthy owners who are re-building their teams.....owners who might want to make money, but also are obviously passionate about winning.

I doubt the Indians can successfully keep selling their "pretend contending" too much longer. The fans and media have in huge numbers turned against them....and not just because of a bad 2nd half of 2012. This has been going on for most of the years the Dolans have owned this team.

What they keep saying publically...well, it's like listening to b.s.-ing politicians: promise everything to get your vote, then do little or nothing. We've all heard that tune too long as well.

The Indians organization has so many gaping holes, no reasonable fan expects them to be able to successfully rebuild overnight. But, please: stop the PR-gibberish about "process" and "culture" and just do it: start rebuilding/re-tooling the right way. And, start now.

As a fan I feel like they've stolen our baseball team from us. How many of you guys here on this forum honestly believe the Dolans will fix this thing? Or, will it be more spin and b.s.?

When Manny was fired, CA said something to the affect of that the team did not perform as well as they expected. I actually think CA and his staff were optimistic this year. My question is how could you be optimistic when you don't have a LF and 1B is a weak hitter. Of course, they anticipated Ubaldo returning to form. I really think CA plays fantasy baseball. Instead of using his (or his scouts) eyes he looks at stats from the previous years to make moves.

1. When he made the Ubaldo trade, Ubaldo's velocity was down (considerably) and his delivery was a mess. Now his delivery may have added to his effectiveness when his velocity was up but never clean.

2. Kotchman is a miserable 1B offensively. I know he had good stats last year but when you watch the guy play he misses the mark of an offensive force. He does not have the pop in his bat to consistently score guys from 1B or the speed to consistently score from 2nd on singles. For a guy to man an offensive position like 1B, you must be able to drive in runs but he doesn't do that or even score runs well.

3. Damon was a desperate move. My issue is more of how we got into the mess that lead us to sign Damon than the actual signing.

4. Lowe was paid like a #3 and for 2 months was like a #1 before losing it completely. That was the trend DL set the past 2 years. I really don't consider this that bad of a move.

BS? Spin? maybe but I think CA was way too far on the optimistic wave without a dose of reality.

[timdav]

Geronimo....Dan Gilbert bought the Cavs with Le Bron already on the team...and had several bad contracts he was stuck with. He gave it a shot with Le Bron...and just couldn't get it done. Cleveland isn't a glamor market for free agents, and you have to have an abundance of talent to be able to make huge trades to upgrade your roster....that just wasn't possible.

My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner.

The blatant reality is, the Dolans either won't or can't afford to take risks...and have hung on to the same failed front office for years and years: people who have bad talent judgement in many trades, don't seem to be able to recruit the best minor league scouts/organization people, and litter the major league team with over-the-hill, marginal major league free agents that do little but waste valuable payroll. The Dolans loyalty to their FO is an admirable trait. But, in business...it can also be a huge weakness.

So is the win-loss record since the Dolans took ownership of our Tribe: marginal to poor. Facts are facts, Geronimo.

[GeronimoSon]

....My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner...

I'd say.. get new Browns friends.. they have as much faith in the "new ownership" going forward to build a winner as you do in your appraisal of Mr Dolan going backwards or not supporting a winning approach to the operation of the Indians..

[Hermie13]

By having one of the worst records in MLB, the Indians will have a protected 1st round pick in the 2013 amateur draft. This means we could sign Josh Hamilton without giving up a 1st round as compensation.
Maybe we will have Hamilton in for a visit, and wine & dine at the Golden Corral. (Although Hamilton is LH so he is probably not in the plan. Scott Hariston from the Mets seems more our type.)

Josh Hamilton is the same as Pujols and Fielder from a year ago, 0% chance of the Indians signing him. Our 1st round pick was protected last year so not sure it'll really make a difference this year. Maybe you could say Upton is an extreme possibility for the Indians (still very, very unlikely) and there's a chance he gets an arby offer. With the new arby rules though we'll see fewer guys than ever offered it and the ones that are are gonna be getting big bucks, most likely out of the Tribe's price range.

Hernie, I only mentioned Hamilton in jest. However, if the Indians wind up hiring Francona, I do predict they will do something unusual.
They might be competitive for a FA you wouldn't expect. Or they might trade and take on a large contract.
If they were gonna do the same old thing, they could have kept Acta.

I was sort of assuming you were but feared there were others on here (who I won't name) that actually are expecting the Indians go be players for Hamilton so just wanted to try and squassh that now, even if those people will still be upset when the Tribe doesn't get him.

I do agree on a Francona hiring. I think if the Tribe does end up getting him (HUGE 'if') that it's a signal that the Tribe isn't planning a huge firesale and could be active in adding ML pieces. Still think a guy like Chris Perez would be gone and possibly even Choo, but could see some somewhat unusual things with a guy like Francona on board. I'd expect a few former Red Sox player signings/trades if a guy like Francona was brought in. Youk could be available and a guy that fits a need and has obviously worked with Francona in the past. Maybe the Tribe looks at a guy like Lester who may be avaiable.

I'm still not convinced we'll get Francona into Cleveland...but think whomever the Tribes gets as manager could be a big indication of what direction the Tribe is planning on going this winter as far as being aggressive in adding talent or aggressive in a rebuild...

[danh8]

....My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner...

I'd say.. get new Browns friends.. they have as much faith in the "new ownership" going forward to build a winner as you do in your appraisal of Mr Dolan going backwards or not supporting a winning approach to the operation of the Indians..

I think you're way off there ... more optimism is present now with the Browns moving forward than at any time since their return. Whereas, the Dolan's have destroyed everything they acquired. I've been following the Indians since '71, and they have never been at a lower point in my opinion... although I'll credit the Dolan's...they operate the franchise so frugally they actually can still turn profits, although that may be coming to an end next year. But, if they can keep payroll under 40 million they could and should.

Now, I don't think the Dolan's have no desire to win...they do hope to win,they just can't effect any means to do so due to economic restraints and poor decision makers.

[GoTribe028]

....My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner...

I'd say.. get new Browns friends.. they have as much faith in the "new ownership" going forward to build a winner as you do in your appraisal of Mr Dolan going backwards or not supporting a winning approach to the operation of the Indians..

I think you're way off there ... more optimism is present now with the Browns moving forward than at any time since their return.

This. If you don't think the majority of Browns fans aren't excited about Jimmy Haslam you're kidding yourself.

[GeronimoSon]

....My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner...

I'd say.. get new Browns friends.. they have as much faith in the "new ownership" going forward to build a winner as you do in your appraisal of Mr Dolan going backwards or not supporting a winning approach to the operation of the Indians..

I think you're way off there ... more optimism is present now with the Browns moving forward than at any time since their return.

This. If you don't think the majority of Browns fans aren't excited about Jimmy Haslam you're kidding yourself.

OPTIMISM IS PRESENT ?????????????????????????????? DEAR LORD.. Browns fans are the most naive of all the Cleveland franchises... Browns fans have heard:

-"..the Browns are going to build through the draft..." (sound familiar??????)

-"..the team is making progress, improving their personnel..." (count more than six guys currently on the Browns 53 man roster that would be starters on any other team in the AFC North.. that includes Phil Dawson..you can't find them)

-"..the team should be able to compete in two or three years..." (fifth time for this message)..

The Indians FO have used the same words and are ostracized by the media and lambasted by the fans on the various and sundry news outlets... The Indians team owner has spent more money than any other owner in the history of the Indians.. The Lerners, didn't..

So who's cheap?

and.. more importantly, WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE GIVE THAT SAD AND MISMANAGED BROWNS FRANCHISE ANY BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AFTER 13 YEARS OF COMPLETE AND TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT !!!?????????

Like I said..you need new Browns friends.. someone who doesn't look through rose colored glasses...

and the only people kidding themselves are the ones who think Jimmy Haslam is going to pony up the $ 100 - $ 200 MM to put a lid on Cleveland Browns Stadium, or whatever corporate name he's going to sell the right to.. How about Cleveland Off the Cliffs Stadium ?....

[GoTribe028]

....My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner...

I'd say.. get new Browns friends.. they have as much faith in the "new ownership" going forward to build a winner as you do in your appraisal of Mr Dolan going backwards or not supporting a winning approach to the operation of the Indians..

I think you're way off there ... more optimism is present now with the Browns moving forward than at any time since their return.

This. If you don't think the majority of Browns fans aren't excited about Jimmy Haslam you're kidding yourself.

OPTIMISM IS PRESENT ?????????????????????????????? DEAR LORD.. Browns fans are the most naive of all the Cleveland franchises... Browns fans have heard:

-"..the Browns are going to build through the draft..." (sound familiar??????)

-"..the team is making progress, improving their personnel..." (count more than six guys currently on the Browns 53 man roster that would be starters on any other team in the AFC North.. that includes Phil Dawson..you can't find them)

-"..the team should be able to compete in two or three years..." (fifth time for this message)..

The Indians FO have used the same words and are ostracized by the media and lambasted by the fans on the various and sundry news outlets... The Indians team owner has spent more money than any other owner in the history of the Indians.. The Lerners, didn't..

So who's cheap?

and.. more importantly, WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE GIVE THAT SAD AND MISMANAGED BROWNS FRANCHISE ANY BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AFTER 13 YEARS OF COMPLETE AND TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT !!!?????????

Like I said..you need new Browns friends.. someone who doesn't look through rose colored glasses...

and the only people kidding themselves are the ones who think Jimmy Haslam is going to pony up the $ 100 - $ 200 MM to put a lid on Cleveland Browns Stadium, or whatever corporate name he's going to sell the right to.. How about Cleveland Off the Cliffs Stadium ?....

Chill out. Like I said, you're kidding yourself if you don't believe the majority of Browns fans aren't excited by Jimmy Haslam.

Take off your beer goggles before accusing others of wearing rose colored glasses.

[GeronimoSon]

....My point is....at least with the Cavs and from what I understand from my Browns friends, the new Browns owner are devoted to winning. They will do what it takes....take risks...to try to build a winner...

I'd say.. get new Browns friends.. they have as much faith in the "new ownership" going forward to build a winner as you do in your appraisal of Mr Dolan going backwards or not supporting a winning approach to the operation of the Indians..

I think you're way off there ... more optimism is present now with the Browns moving forward than at any time since their return.

This. If you don't think the majority of Browns fans aren't excited about Jimmy Haslam you're kidding yourself.

OPTIMISM IS PRESENT ?????????????????????????????? DEAR LORD.. Browns fans are the most naive of all the Cleveland franchises... Browns fans have heard:

-"..the Browns are going to build through the draft..." (sound familiar??????)

-"..the team is making progress, improving their personnel..." (count more than six guys currently on the Browns 53 man roster that would be starters on any other team in the AFC North.. that includes Phil Dawson..you can't find them)

-"..the team should be able to compete in two or three years..." (fifth time for this message)..

The Indians FO have used the same words and are ostracized by the media and lambasted by the fans on the various and sundry news outlets... The Indians team owner has spent more money than any other owner in the history of the Indians.. The Lerners, didn't..

So who's cheap?

and.. more importantly, WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE GIVE THAT SAD AND MISMANAGED BROWNS FRANCHISE ANY BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AFTER 13 YEARS OF COMPLETE AND TOTAL EMBARRASSMENT !!!?????????

Like I said..you need new Browns friends.. someone who doesn't look through rose colored glasses...

and the only people kidding themselves are the ones who think Jimmy Haslam is going to pony up the $ 100 - $ 200 MM to put a lid on Cleveland Browns Stadium, or whatever corporate name he's going to sell the right to.. How about Cleveland Off the Cliffs Stadium ?....

Chill out. Like I said, you're kidding yourself if you don't believe the majority of Browns fans aren't excited by Jimmy Haslam.

Take off your beer goggles before accusing others of wearing rose colored glasses.

13 years of abject failure doesn't DESERVE optimism, whatever color the glasses are.. ANYONE WHO CAN'T SEE THIS SHAM FOR WHAT IT IS.. needs to kid themselves.. which is exactly what you are doing (Golly gee mr wizard.. we have a new owner now, so now there's optimism!! <=== how lame is this????). "Browns Fans ?!?!?!?!" Cleveland NEEDS NEW ONES.. ONES WHO CAN SEE THAT THE BROWNS & their organization and their player evaluations and their coaching and the entertainment value just flat out STINK !! Can you honestly say that you believe the Browns are an exciting team to watch?.. are you kidding.. they're boring, predictable and lose all the time.. The BROWNS are on a 10 (TEN) game LOSING streak.. Other than a lucky win over Jacksonville late in November of 2011, the BROWNS would be approaching an entire year of LOSING.. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.. THERE IS NO REASON FOR OPTIMISM.. YOU DON'T CHANGE THE COACH and GET A WINNING TEAM.. YOU DON'T CHANGE THE NAME ON THE EXECUTIVE WASHROOM and GET A WINNING TEAM..

[timdav]

Today, Mark Shaprio and Chris Antonetti made appearances on several radio and TV shows.

They more or less said they were going to retool, and build around the current core.

But, all the b.s./spin aside.....is retooling really possible?

The Dolan's won't/can't afford to invest enough $$$$ to sign 3 or 4 quality free agents. The Indians have so many holes 25 of the 30 major league teams could not afford to heavily retool around free agents. Besides, this year's crop of f.a.'s is said to be the worst in 10 years.

There's nobody left of any consequence at AAA or AA to promote who's not already in Cleveland. OK, Carlos Carassco will be back off Tommy John....and Hagadone should help out in the bullpen. But, those two guys aren't likely to make THAT big a difference in 2013's Tribe performance.

All that's left is make great trades...and the Indians have precious few players that most teams would want in a trade, without opening even more holes on the Indians big league roster.

OK...they can trade Chris Perez and Choo. But, do you trust the current FO can move those 2 guys and get 4 to 6 quality, major league players back in return? Ahhh....that'd be tough for ANY GM/president...much less a FO with poor major trade track records.

Bottom line is, IMHO, the Indians organization, by letting the quality of their scouting department decline over the past 13 years, and keeping the same failed leadership in the FO, has, sadly, has painted themselves into a corner. There really is no path to retooling for 2013, even 2014. Wish it wasn't so.

If the Dolan's goal is to build a true championship caliber major league ream, rebuilding may be the only realistic path that makes any kind of sense.

[homerawayfromhome]

I think in theory it's easier to rebuild than retool. That is supplement the parts in place, rather than acq. new different talent and identify a new core...Honestly I don't trust this FO to do either effectively. But I think we can see this is about self preservation right now. Does that mean they will seriously hit up Francona? I mean he would probably be the choice short term, but if its a long term move than I'd say it would be Sandy.

[danh8]

Today, Mark Shaprio and Chris Antonetti made appearances on several radio and TV shows.

They more or less said they were going to retool, and build around the current core.

But, all the b.s./spin aside.....is retooling really possible?

The Dolan's won't/can't afford to invest enough $$$$ to sign 3 or 4 quality free agents. The Indians have so many holes 25 of the 30 major league teams could not afford to heavily retool around free agents. Besides, this year's crop of f.a.'s is said to be the worst in 10 years.

There's nobody left of any consequence at AAA or AA to promote who's not already in Cleveland. OK, Carlos Carassco will be back off Tommy John....and Hagadone should help out in the bullpen. But, those two guys aren't likely to make THAT big a difference in 2013's Tribe performance.

All that's left is make great trades...and the Indians have precious few players that most teams would want in a trade, without opening even more holes on the Indians big league roster.

OK...they can trade Chris Perez and Choo. But, do you trust the current FO can move those 2 guys and get 4 to 6 quality, major league players back in return? Ahhh....that'd be tough for ANY GM/president...much less a FO with poor major trade track records.

Bottom line is, IMHO, the Indians organization, by letting the quality of their scouting department decline over the past 13 years, and keeping the same failed leadership in the FO, has, sadly, has painted themselves into a corner. There really is no path to retooling for 2013, even 2014. Wish it wasn't so.

If the Dolan's goal is to build a true championship caliber major league ream, rebuilding may be the only realistic path that makes any kind of sense.

Its sad to say, but really the objective at hand for the Dolan family is to try to somehow, someway make the team look attractive enough to be able to sell and not be left in a financial disaster in the aftermath. They, in my opinion, are left with no solvency to make the kind of moves needed to turn this around quickly, and don't seem to have the resolve to fire and then bring in a strong and competent group to restructure and rebuild the right way. The fans no longer have the desire to continue to support them in any efforts because they have completely lost faith in them, and basically see the situation for what it is at this point. The Dolan's are simply low level millionaires attempting to play and compete in a billionaires game... Small markets can compete and be successful, but they simply can't make the number of mistakes as this team's leadership makes in scouting, drafting, player development, trades, money management, etc ... and they are loyal to failed personnel to the point they have killed themselves. Good people ..sound philosophy ...but very poor execution by those they hired to do their respective jobs. Then they double down by retaining those at the root cause of the problem, and go even beyond that in promoting them in some cases.

[timdav]

Is it no wonder why veteran baseball GM John Hart left the organization just after the Dolan's took over? Think he was smart enough to read the landscape and say, "no frickin' way am I sticking around"?

Oh, Hart was in his early 50's when he left the Indians. He didn't leave to retire. He left to escape.

[ironmike]

TimDav, regarding Hart, you nailed it.

NW Geronimo, keep trying. Posted players like McCutcheon and I got more news for you. This team needs 3 impact, proven ML every day players and two good starting pitchers to contend next year. One of those pitchers MIGHT be Carrasco, provided he's healthy, but of course they will limit his innings to 160. What they should do is hold him back in April, early May when the weather is cool in the North so he would be available down the stretch.

A list of targeted players for this off-season the Indians should go after to turn it around and suggestions on what minor league players we have that could contribute next year will be posted soon.

[GeronimoSon]

...There's nobody left of any consequence at AAA or AA to promote who's not already in Cleveland. OK, Carlos Carassco will be back off Tommy John....and Hagadone should help out in the bullpen. But, those two guys aren't likely to make THAT big a difference in 2013's Tribe performance.

All that's left is make great trades...and the Indians have precious few players that most teams would want in a trade, without opening even more holes on the Indians big league roster.

OK...they can trade Chris Perez and Choo. But, do you trust the current FO can move those 2 guys and get 4 to 6 quality, major league players back in return? Ahhh....that'd be tough for ANY GM/president...much less a FO with poor major trade track records.....

Let's take a look a the despair indicated in this kind of commentary...it's palpable..

The general comment about the quality of the players left at AA/AAA seems to be a continuous stream of "these guys are not ML caliber" prospects.. Yet, in 2011 and 2012, the AA and AAA squads were league champions and national champions. While being a minor league champion is no guarantee of ML success, it can be construed as a measure of the "heart" needed to be a champion. IMHO, the talent that has been viewed as "not ML caliber", is just inaccurate:

-Is there an "ace/front of the rotation" SP that anyone and everyone can see?.. Using the measuring stick of a "Strasburg" as the target.. then the answer is certainly no.. Looking at the upper level pitching prospects (AA/AAA), Scotty Barnes, Austin Adams, CC Lee, Giovanni Soto, Bryce Stowell, Trey Haley, Danny Salazar, Matt Langwell, and Nick Hagadone qualify as having ML quality / level arms.. It may be proven to be the wrong direction, but guys Hagadone & Barnes and most other pitchers that have been converted to RP need to continue to be challenged as SP's for the Indians going forward.

-Is there a big bopper / RH slugger in the minors?: Russ Canzler is proving that given the opportunity, he can hit.. He's mature and has an advanced approach at the plate. I don't think there's a left handed pitcher alive that can consistently get Jared Goedert out.. when he was promoted to AAA after hitting nearly .400 at AA, he was asked to hit with more power..so he doubled his double output and tripled his home run output, yet, hasn't sniffed the ML's yet.. because he doesn't have the "IT" factor or hasn't been given the opportunity.. It's time for him to get an opportunity.. There are several other guys like this.. Cord Phelps.. Matt LaPorta.. etc.. all maturing and waiting for an opportunity to play at the ML level.. Some are blocked by young and talented players (Kipnis for Phelps).. Others are blocked because of BONEHEAD acquisitions (Kotchman, Damon, Duncan, Aaron Freaking Cunningham) while still others just haven't been afforded an opportunity like the Goederts and Fedroffs as the Indians have deemed these guys to be not ready/not able to be ML'ers.. Most of these guys not only need a chance.. they needed another chance.. perhaps several chances (see Brandon Phillips).. Manny Acta playing Kotchman and Hannahan and Duncan and Cunningham and Damon and on and on has proven to be a TRAGEDY.. the guys listed here (and more) needed to be given their chance and WEREN'T. The Indians really don't know what they have waiting for them in the minor leagues as far as ML level talent.. Given the opportunity (like Canzler has been afforded) and wow.. he can hit.. and he's right handed.. and he's not horrible (vinnie rottino, now he's horrible) in the field.

It's time for the predisposition of a prospects status to be thrown out. A clean slate needs to be used going into the 2013 season...

Now onto the bolded comments:

-I don't want Nick Hagadone helping out where the Indians have too much help to begin with.. Hagadone should be/could be an effective starter.. put him back..

-Add a # 2/#3 type SP to the Indians starting rotation and he will make a HUGE difference. Add a second one (James Shields type) and the all of a sudden, the Indians have perhaps one of the best starting rotations that doesn't have a guy named Verlander in it..

-Choo and CP for 4 to 6 guys: I don't want a two for six trade. I want to keep CP, period. Choo for two, is as far as it goes. Both guys coming back aren't A+ level prospect, but one can be.. The other starts right now and is better than anyone the Indians can put in that spot currently on the roster..

Comments..

[GeronimoSon]

TimDav, regarding Hart, you nailed it.

NW Geronimo, keep trying. Posted players like McCutcheon and I got more news for you. This team needs 3 impact, proven ML every day players and two good starting pitchers to contend next year. One of those pitchers MIGHT be Carrasco, provided he's healthy, but of course they will limit his innings to 160. What they should do is hold him back in April, early May when the weather is cool in the North so he would be available down the stretch.

A list of targeted players for this off-season the Indians should go after to turn it around and suggestions on what minor league players we have that could contribute next year will be posted soon.

When you make your list, try very VERY hard not to be too completely unbelievable.. Three impact ML'ers and two "good" SP's, huh?.. well, good luck with that.. It may be easier to make the "claim" that the Indians need to score 950 runs in 2013 (thereby taking away any semblance of pitching quality) in order to compete..

[homerawayfromhome]

First as much as I like Chris Perez, I just can't see keeping him, what hurts is I don't see getting value back unless its pulling off a deal like Perez for Lucas Duda (Mets) and a prospect like Michael Fulmer or Cesar Puello where the Mets are hungry to solidify their bullpen.
I'm not concerned that Perez will make himself a cancer on this team...but I think teammates are wore thin of his antics. if he was on a winner I think he'd still be his fiery self on the mound and in the mdeia, but hed curve his comments accordingly---remember he's fast approaching a big pay and he knows it. I think he passionately wants to win, wants the support of fans and wants the FO to do its job. That's where I think it's a certainty that he's gone bc he's been outspoken against mgmt and called them out. What he said was true but out of order and that probably punched his tkt out of town.
Perez is a legit weapon as a CL and in his prime with 2 yrs of control, he's still affordable but will see his pay spike the next 2 yrs.
Choo is as good as gone and should bring back at the very least 1 starter and 1 /2 very solid prospects.
Another cpl moving pieces besides (potentially)Masterson and ACab could be Lou Marson and Joe Smith who I think could be add ins in a 2 for 4 type deal.