Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

by **daingean** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:42 pm

Edible14 wrote:
timdav wrote:If, as reported, the Indians made 20, 30, or even 40 million dollars a year in profit these past few years...will the Dolans be truly motivated to make big changes to improve the on-field performance of the entire organization?

They probably made a tidy sum last year, as the payroll was super low and they didn't expect to be contending/drawing. They did contend last year, and there was a decent uptick in ticket sales as a result. I would expect that they probably did not make much of anything this year, and it's entirely possible that they lost money. Shapiro's on record as saying they were budgeted to lose a little bit of money unless ticket sales saw a significant gain, and sales instead did the exact opposite. And without doing any deadline deals, they haven't dumped any salary via trade, so it's not like that's going to be possibly putting them into profitability like it might have in 2009. It seems highly likely to me that this team didn't make money or lost money this year.

I don't get why people want to insist that the Indians could clearly spend more. There are actual cheap teams out there - Marlins (before this year), Pirates, Royals - who almost never creep above $60M, but the Indians have done that quite a few times. Why is it so hard to believe that a team that makes $120M less in cable revenue than the teams in the LA, NY and Boston markets has to keep it's payroll significantly lower?

I believe the Indians were prepared to lose a little this year but they didn't spend all their budget at the ML level. I think when Shapiro said that, they were still pursuing Beltran and Willingham (Lowe was already in the bank). Instead we got Kotchman and Damon. My guess is they actually made some this season.

Lowe gave us 2 very solid months before he tanked which was more than Kotchman and Damon gave us.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:22 am

Here's a few numbers just for thought but Cody Ross signed for 3 mil, Ryan Doumit 3 mil and Bartolo Colon for 2 mil just for purpose sake... He has to hit on guys like this and missed Kotchman would have been palatable if they had made other moves like Willingham or Beltran. That complete miss in LF killed this team cpl with RPerez out all yr, and the Hernandez debacle and Masterson and Jimenez too if the truth was told. Ultimately it moves or the lack of the right moves that really killed this team.

by **Prosecutor** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:13 am

Ultimately it moves or the lack of the right moves that really killed this team.

No, it was losing 28 out of 33 games in late July and August that killed this team. And not a single position player or starting pitcher played well during that stretch. The entire team collapsed at the same time, and even if they had Willingham it would not have made a significant difference.

What killed this team was the failure of Ubaldo Jimenez to pitch like a #2 starter, the regression of Justin Masterson to a below-average pitcher, the injury to Tomlin, the failure of Gomez to nail down the #5 starting job, the failure of Kotchman to hit .300 like he did the year before, and bad years from Santana and Cabrera, who both failed to match their breakout 2011 seasons. Also, the inability of Sizemore to get on the field and the inability of Hafner to hit for power or stay healthy.

Finally, Hannahan regressed to his career norm and Kipnis was overworked and his performance fell off dramatically in the second half. The broken forearm suffered by Chisenhall just as he was starting to hit didn't help, either.

The only thing to do now is trade Choo and Chris Perez for whatever prospects they will bring and use the savings from the expiring contracts of Hafner, Lowe, Sizemore, Hannahan, Duncan, and possibly Hernandez (if we don't pick up his option) to sign a Josh Willingham. Then put McAlister, Kluber, Gomez, and Carrasco in the rotation next year and hope they develop into above average ML starters.

by **GeronimoSon** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:22 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Here's a few numbers just for thought but Cody Ross signed for 3 mil, Ryan Doumit 3 mil and Bartolo Colon for 2 mil just for purpose sake... He has to hit on guys like this and missed Kotchman would have been palatable if they had made other moves like Willingham or Beltran. That complete miss in LF killed this team cpl with RPerez out all yr, and the Hernandez debacle and Masterson and Jimenez too if the truth was told. Ultimately it moves or the lack of the right moves that really killed this team.

So.. in 2013, who are the guys who are "hits".. and who are the "misses":

For the purpose of defining a hit or a miss, the guy who is brought in has to be able to improve the performance of the player he's replacing.. With some of the members of the Indians, it won't take much (e.g. Grady Sizemore zero at bats & Travis Hafner 200 AB's; Kotchman Hernandez, Raffy, Slowey et al. comes to a "wasted" total of nearly $ 30 MM) The players that could fit onto a short list could include:

Position players
Mike Napoli C/1B
Russell Martin C
James Loney 1B
Mark Reynolds 1B/3B
David Wright 3B
Melky Cabrera OF
Cody Ross OF
BJ Upton OF
Torii Hunter OF
Nick Swisher OF/1B

Pitchers
Jeremy Guthrie
Dan Haren
Edwin Jackson
Francisco Liriano
Anibal Sanchez
Jonathan Broxton

Assuming a third of the 'wasted' goes toward arbitration and other committed raises, the Indians should be able to acquire two or three of the guys on the list.. FWIW, Torii would be my # 1 target for a position player. He just flat out hits at Progressive Field..

Historically, astute trades will/may eventually be a bigger part of the reshaping of the team. The Indians will also need to look at non-tender candidates. There is no set formula to build a team, so, leaving no stone un-turned has to be considered.. Look at what the O's are doing in Baltimore as an example: Only 2 of their primary starting 9 position players were drafted and developed by the Orioles. The starting pitching staff has two 'true' Orioles, but, still nothing to write home about..

by **GeronimoSon** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:42 am

Pros wrote... The only thing to do now is trade Choo and Chris Perez for whatever prospects they will bring and use the savings from the expiring contracts of Hafner, Lowe, Sizemore, Hannahan, Duncan, and possibly Hernandez (if we don't pick up his option) to sign a Josh Willingham. Then put McAlister, Kluber, Gomez, and Carrasco in the rotation next year and hope they develop into above average ML starters....

Justin Masterson, Zach McAllister & Corey Kluber should go into spring training as favorites to win starting spots in the rotation. JeanMar Gomez has to be considered "on the bubble" as he's pitched well enough to be considered, but not consistently enough to be given favored status. Scotty Barnes, like Carlos Carrasco has come a long way back from surgery and would also fit "on the bubble". For this reason, Ubaldo and Hernandez may be brought back, if for no other reason than there just isn't a lot of experienced/depth in the starting rotation. This brings the total to eight candidates for five starting pitching slots. That's about the right number..

Only if trading Choo and Perez brings back ML players should they be traded. Do you have any 'inkling' about who would be returned for these two players?..

by **Edible14** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:43 am

Some early impressions in this 4 week "talent show", as it applies to 2013

-David Huff had a good outing. He needs to put up a good performance this month in order to not get DFA'd this offseason, methinks. If he shows up well enough, he could be retained for a shot at a rotation spot in the spring.
-Russ Canzler is hitting early. I'm liking what he brings to the table
-Matt LaPorta isn't getting ABs now after failing his first impression. Rottino had a few ABs last night and didn't impress either. If those guys are looking for Duncan's old job, it looks like Canzler is making the best case
-Also not getting at-bats, but for less reason... Thomas Neal. Honestly, I might prefer to see Canzler play some 3B just to open up at-bats for Neal/Rottino/LaPorta. It's not like playing Hannahan or Kotchman is worthwhile.
-Phelps with a nice RBI walk. I really wish we could package him up for something good, because he's not versatile enough for a bench role but he's good enough to be a valuable contributor somewhere it seems
-Jeanmar Gomez continues to be a train wreck this year. He's out of options after this year, too. I can see Kluber/McAllister/Masterson with three spots next year. Then a free agent (or Ubaldo/Hernandez) getting another spot. Then Gomez/Huff getting to duke it out for the fifth spot.

by **Bearcatbob** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:10 am

When CA looks to find out what happened - I think the failure of numerous players to simply do what was expected in February is an easy read.

Hafner and Sizemore - nothing from Sizemore. When Hafner went down the O truly tanked. His bat not in the lineup IMO was a big contributor to an anemic offense.

Santana - huge disappointment.

Kotchman - huge disappointment - all he had to do was contribute his career stats.

Tomlin - essentially nothing - gone due to injury.

Raffey left - nothing

Sipp - nothing

Masterson - below expectations

Ubaldo - nothing - but was anything really expected?

IMO the only guy who has performed above expectations is Brantley. CP and Pestano have been solid - but I think their performance was expected. ACab and Kipnis have been as expected - with ACab IMO a bit below.

Why did we stink this year - lots of guys simply had bad years - for whatever reason. Others simply followed their track record of health issues.

Ah - and then there was the idiocy in left field.

by **Pork Chop Pough** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:55 am

Edible14 wrote:-David Huff had a good outing. He needs to put up a good performance this month in order to not get DFA'd this offseason, methinks. If he shows up well enough, he could be retained for a shot at a rotation spot in the spring.

If David Huff improved to the point that he could post a 4.70 ERA over 138 more major league innings, then his career innings and ERA would match Jeremy Sowers. Short of not allowing a run over the remainder of the season, there's nothing Huff should be able to do at this point to save himself from being DFA'd. They know by now what he is, and it isn't good.

by **GeronimoSon** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:41 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Edible14 wrote:-David Huff had a good outing. He needs to put up a good performance this month in order to not get DFA'd this offseason, methinks. If he shows up well enough, he could be retained for a shot at a rotation spot in the spring.

If David Huff improved to the point that he could post a 4.70 ERA over 138 more major league innings, then his career innings and ERA would match Jeremy Sowers. Short of not allowing a run over the remainder of the season, there's nothing Huff should be able to do at this point to save himself from being DFA'd. They know by now what he is, and it isn't good.

Or you may have see David Huff in an audition for the position he could be taking in 2013: Taking Rafael Perez's spot in the bullpen.. Huff could be the second or third lefty who may also be able to spot start.. three plus innings pitched.. he gave up nothing & was efficient and effective. It was a very good outing. He should be given the opportunity to repeat this audition in his next outing..

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:32 pm

I've said for along time Huff is a Loogy, but the tribe has options there so if they see it time to move on than so what. I'd let him work for that role next spring if he makes it great otherwise let's move on. Huff, Sipp, Hagadone, and Maine all pitching for that role.
Barnes should be back to SP in the spring competing for the final spot with Kluber, and maybe Gomez.

by **Edible14** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:54 pm

I'm thinking Huff eventually gets DFA'd, but at this point why would you prefer Gomez over him? They're both out of options, so why would Gomez get an automatic roster spot and Huff doesn't? If Huff pitches well enough the rest of the season, I can see the Indians keeping him around until the end of spring training, where either him or Gomez get DFA'd (since they'll have to clear waivers anyway) for somebody who makes the team off of a minor league free agent contract.

The fact that neither of them are sure fire DFAs at this point indicates the lack of depth we have in the rotation.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:26 pm

I think Gomez COULD (doubtful) still be a 5 starter but more likely a long man, at this point I feel Huff would be first to go and Gomez has potential to get DFA too. It really depends on the nature (bats / pitching) of the talent brought in this offseason. Although I think Huff could have an outside shot as a Loogy. Both appear as bullpen arms in the future, which makes them expendable.
Don't know how I could forget him but the Tribe does have Chris Seddon too. I think there could be an outside chance RPerez comes back next although I'd guess it's about 80% he's gone.

by **Pork Chop Pough** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:57 pm

David Huff's career vs. lefties: 320 ab, .309/.386/.503

Why would anyone want that coming out of the bullpen?

The reason to give Gomez innings over Huff is that winning games the next few weeks is irrelevant, and Gomez might possibly still have a future with the Indians. Huff has proven he has no future in major league baseball. He was really successful for about 3 games when he was called back up last year, too... and then got hammered the rest of the way. He's like the pitching version of Shelley Duncan.

by **Edible14** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:02 am

Over ~200 IP, Gomez has an FIP of 4.75, xFIP of 4.57
Over 262 IP, Huff has an FIP of 4.88, xFIP of 5.06

Huff hasn't had that many more chances, and has shown to be roughly as bad, except that his homerun/flyball rate is lower.

What I'm trying to illustrate is not that Huff is good, but that Gomez is bad as well and shouldn't be a sure thing anymore. The only thing that you can really conclusively put in Gomez' corner is that he's 4 years younger than Huff. But they've both failed to impress given some significant chances. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say that Gomez should be getting a rotation spot next year without competition. And really, that you could argue that either of these guys might be options for 2013's rotation is a sad state of affairs... and makes it all the more tempting to keep either Hernandez or Jimenez.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:41 am

One thing Gomez has shown in his starts is he can be effective in short spurts. He's usually sound his first time through the lineup which is good enough to be a long man. Personally, I think his stock has taken a tremendous blow this yr and the results have shown.

Obviously, I hadn't checked out he splits on Huff, but that only proves to me that's hes done unless he impresses. I know there have been discussions about him being moved...I think it's another Trevor Crowe situation where he gets dumped and eventually lands elsewhere. Some guys stuff and approach is simply better suited for being a RP, I still think Huff should be forced into the pen first and if he gets lit up dump him. Truth is there's not a tremendous amount of talent knocking the doors down to get into Cleveland right now. It could be a numbers game this offseason, where a number of younger better arms are in need of roster protection as well as others who are brought in through trades, signings. I'm by no means trying to defend Huff, I said he was done before this yr. Im not changing that stance simply pointing out he could still have limited usefulness.

Another bubble name or two Chris Seddon and Frank Hermann. I don't see either as viable long term solutions in any role. Fact is one or two of these guys ends up on the squad in all likelihood.

by **Prosecutor** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:03 am

Only if trading Choo and Perez brings back ML players should they be traded. Do you have any 'inkling' about who would be returned for these two players?..

I don't understand this thinking. Why are we eliminating trading for prospects? Do you expect us to contend next year?

Here is a list of players who were minor leaguers when the Indians traded for them: Travis Hafner, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, Shin Soo Choo, Michael Brantley, Carlos Santana, Asdrubal Cabrera, Zach McAlister, Carlos Carrasco, Corey Kluber, Coco Crisp, Sandy Alomar, Jr, Carlos Baerga, Kenny Lofton, Joe Carter...and the list goes on. If not for their ability to trade established major league players for prospects, the Indians would be no different than the Pirates or Royals over the last 20 years.

Above all the Indians need a few great players. They have some fairly good players - Kipnis, Brantley, Cabrera, Santana, Choo, Chris Perez, Pestano. But none of them are great players, and without great players you don't make it to the post-season. The Indians need to move Choo and Perez for some AA prospects that will develop into the next Sizemore or Lee.

by **Prosecutor** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:18 am

Huff is 28 years old and had a 4.97 ERA this year in AAA. He gave up 155 hits in 134 innings. He's no longer a prospect. Yes, he got 10 batters out in a row the other night. That's nice, but it doesn't mean squat.

This guy Maine gave up 3 hits in 23 at-bats against lefties with the Cubs this season. I could see him replacing Raffie. But LOOGIES are not hard to find.

I'm not very optimistic about Gomez. He's looking like another Huff to me - a guy who occasionally pitches well for a few starts but always regresses to the AAAA level.

Pluto says the Indians will pick up Jimenez's option. So next year's rotation in April should be Masterson, Jimenez, Kluber, McAlister, and probably a free agent or somebody they get in trade for Choo. Tony expects Carrasco to spend the first couple of months in extended spring training so they can limit his innings for the season, as opposed to having him start the season in the rotation and then have to shut him down in August like the Nationals are doing with Strasburg.

Hopefully Jimenez will have a decent first half and they can trade him in June or July, with Carrasco taking his spot.

Danny Salazar had a great season and is coming fast, so he may take a spot at some point.

There are plenty of candidates for the back of the bullpen behind Vinnie, Allen, and Smith.

by **timdav** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:09 pm

Don't mean to be looking too far ahead, but...it would seem "building the 2015 or 2016 Cleveland Indians" might be more appropriate considering our minor league system.

Sure, that's silly....but, it is realistic.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:16 pm

I think we will see the Tribe pick up Jimenez's option too. It's mere speculation but I expect them to decline Roberto Hernandez's option while picking up Jimenez option. Then turn around and try to resign Hernandez even on a cheaper deal. I don't see both Jimenez and Hernandez here, they will log some innings but keeping one of the two to log innings isnt so bad as both in the rotation.
I can't see how Perez and Choo could be traded without it involving prospects. The Tribe wants affordable controllable pieces and will want to make it worth while. There may be a piece or two brought back in a deal that is major league ready but it will have inc. talent that's not quite there. For instance a deal like Choo to SF for Brown, Blackburn and Crick would bring back 1 now player and two talented arms at AA, A.

by **daingean** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:37 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Only if trading Choo and Perez brings back ML players should they be traded. Do you have any 'inkling' about who would be returned for these two players?..

I don't understand this thinking. Why are we eliminating trading for prospects? Do you expect us to contend next year?

Here is a list of players who were minor leaguers when the Indians traded for them: Travis Hafner, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, Shin Soo Choo, Michael Brantley, Carlos Santana, Asdrubal Cabrera, Zach McAlister, Carlos Carrasco, Corey Kluber, Coco Crisp, Sandy Alomar, Jr, Carlos Baerga, Kenny Lofton, Joe Carter...and the list goes on. If not for their ability to trade established major league players for prospects, the Indians would be no different than the Pirates or Royals over the last 20 years.

Above all the Indians need a few great players. They have some fairly good players - Kipnis, Brantley, Cabrera, Santana, Choo, Chris Perez, Pestano. But none of them are great players, and without great players you don't make it to the post-season. The Indians need to move Choo and Perez for some AA prospects that will develop into the next Sizemore or Lee.

I will say that if we do trade Choo and/or CPerez (and others) for prospects, I don't want any A ball prospects especially pitchers.

1. the strength of our team is at the A+/A/SS A/Rookie level
2. Most of our top pitching prospects have broken down as they ascended the minor league ladder - what makes anyone think that acquired pitching prospects in the A+ level and below will develop any better than Knapp, Miller, KDLC, or Rondon.
3. Our best success in acquiring pirchers in deals has been guys ready or near ready for the show.....not 2-3 year projects

I don't mind secondary prospects in the deals being 2-3 year projects but if we are trading Choo or C-Perez, I want guys that are less of projects and more of ML ready players.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:28 pm

Kyle Crick, is an arm I would consider in the example I gave above Choo for Brown, Blackburn and Crick. That's 3 of the Giants top 5 prospects in return. Brown 1, Crick 2, and Blackburn 4 (i know its probably unrealistic to expect that kind of return---I'd still ask for it). Personally I see Brown as a RH hitting CF / LF type bit of light hitter for a corner but I think he would do and he's ready now. Crick is a qk rising power RHSP I think will project as a 2/3 type starter he pitched in low A ball as a 19 yo and could move through the system very qkly 2/3 yrs away IMO. Blackburn is another 19 yo RHSP I think moves well through the system, I would project as a 3/4 type starter but could be more.

I understand the Tribe needs now talent but they also need to acq. upside and that is what Crick would bring to the table for the Tribe. While they would have to wait for him, and he could flame out, so could any other player / pitcher on the diamond even can't miss kids like LaPorta that are ready now but yet to prove it in the major league level.

I get the fact the Tribe can't afford to miss, nor can it afford to not take chances and land qlty high upside talent. I'm all about the numbers, if they can add several talented players some ready a few not they are likely to hit on a few that could be very useful for the future of this club if they will be patient and wait for them.

by **Edible14** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:55 am

I wish we could pry one of the top arms from the Pirates away (along with maybe Josh Bell). I'm not sure that Choo by himself would be enough to net that kind of return, and I'm not comfortable with the notion of packaging ACab away. They don't really need a closer so I doubt Chris Perez would be of much interest to them.

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:14 am

Edible14 wrote:I wish we could pry one of the top arms from the Pirates away (along with maybe Josh Bell). I'm not sure that Choo by himself would be enough to net that kind of return, and I'm not comfortable with the notion of packaging ACab away. They don't really need a closer so I doubt Chris Perez would be of much interest to them.

Ouch.. the last time the Indians traded a corner outfielder to the Pirates, Ricardo Rincon was the return.. and Brian Giles went on to become the face of their franchise and push towards a HOF career ( he ended up short of that honor, but was a helluva player after leaving our wigwam..). While history repeats, we certainly do not want to be doomed when it does...

I'd be pickled tink if the Indians & Chris Antonetti were able to somehow acquire one of the Pirates "Dynamic Duo". This duo is, of course, James Taillon and Gerrit Cole. (FWIW, either would be fine, but Taillon is the goods, imho) It would take an act of stupidity or desperation by Neil Huntington to move either of those guys as the Pirates have quite a mess in their starting rotation coming at him. These two guys are ticketed to the ML's as soon as they are ready. The Pirates also have two other serious problems where they are in dire need: shortstop, where Clint Barmes has pretty much stunk it up all season and corner outfield where they Buccos have had a revolving door in both LF and RF (CF is the only OF spot the Pirates have nailed down.. and aren't interested in trading). Travis Snider has pretty much paralleled the "dive" for the Pirates as he's been hitting "on the Interstate" since the trading deadline. Clint Barmes has a toll booth he calls home there.. After a pretty good start to his ML career (hitting .290 with 4 homers and an OPS of .872), Starling Marte appears to have hit the wall. He's had seven singles in 45 AB's since the middle of August and only one hit in all of September. The talent is there.. now it's just a matter of growing up/maturing...

So, the Pirates need a "Ready To Go" SS and an Corner OF'er that can play.. Funny.. the Indians have a corner OF'er that is being considered for trade (Shin-soo Choo) and a SS that is ready to go (Asdrubal Cabrera).. The fit can't be much cleaner. The issue becomes would the Indians be willing to part with TWO mainstays for one of the dynamic due and perhaps a pair of prospects such as Marte and Josh Bell?. Would the Pirates? Something to contemplate, I suppose...

by **Prosecutor** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:25 am

I will say that if we do trade Choo and/or CPerez (and others) for prospects, I don't want any A ball prospects especially pitchers.

1. the strength of our team is at the A+/A/SS A/Rookie level
2. Most of our top pitching prospects have broken down as they ascended the minor league ladder - what makes anyone think that acquired pitching prospects in the A+ level and below will develop any better than Knapp, Miller, KDLC, or Rondon.
3. Our best success in acquiring pirchers in deals has been guys ready or near ready for the show.....not 2-3 year projects

I don't mind secondary prospects in the deals being 2-3 year projects but if we are trading Choo or C-Perez, I want guys that are less of projects and more of ML ready players.

I certainly understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure I agree. There have been a lot of prospects who dominated at the AA/AAA level and failed abysmally in the bigs. Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta come to mind immediately, along with Wes Hodges, Ben Francisco, and many others. Hafner, Sizemore, Phillips, and Lee were the most successful prospects we traded for recently, and none of them were major league ready when we acquired them. Neither was Asdrubal Cabrera or Carlos Santana.

If you insist on "major league ready" prospects you're not going to get as many, since they have higher value than the guys in A ball, who are considered more risky. A team like the Indians has to gamble. The only way the Indians will ever make it back to the World Series is if they are able to get a "wave" of prospects who all make it to the bigs at about the same time, when they are still young and affordable and under team control for a few years. If they lose a Sabathia or Lee or Victor Martinez every time a Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner emerges from the minors, they'll never do better than 80-82.

So right now we have a nice group of prospects at the A/A+/AA level. Let's add a few more by trading Choo and Perez and create a wave of quality players who will emerge at the same time, hopefully while we still have Kipnis, Santana, Brantley, Allen, Carrasco and Pestano. Or we could go with your plan and trade Choo or Perez for somebody who was the MVP at AAA, like Russ Canzler.

by **Rocky55** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:46 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
I will say that if we do trade Choo and/or CPerez (and others) for prospects, I don't want any A ball prospects especially pitchers.

1. the strength of our team is at the A+/A/SS A/Rookie level
2. Most of our top pitching prospects have broken down as they ascended the minor league ladder - what makes anyone think that acquired pitching prospects in the A+ level and below will develop any better than Knapp, Miller, KDLC, or Rondon.
3. Our best success in acquiring pirchers in deals has been guys ready or near ready for the show.....not 2-3 year projects

I don't mind secondary prospects in the deals being 2-3 year projects but if we are trading Choo or C-Perez, I want guys that are less of projects and more of ML ready players.

I certainly understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure I agree. There have been a lot of prospects who dominated at the AA/AAA level and failed abysmally in the bigs. Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta come to mind immediately, along with Wes Hodges, Ben Francisco, and many others. Hafner, Sizemore, Phillips, and Lee were the most successful prospects we traded for recently, and none of them were major league ready when we acquired them. Neither was Asdrubal Cabrera or Carlos Santana.

If you insist on "major league ready" prospects you're not going to get as many, since they have higher value than the guys in A ball, who are considered more risky. A team like the Indians has to gamble. The only way the Indians will ever make it back to the World Series is if they are able to get a "wave" of prospects who all make it to the bigs at about the same time, when they are still young and affordable and under team control for a few years. If they lose a Sabathia or Lee or Victor Martinez every time a Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner emerges from the minors, they'll never do better than 80-82.

So right now we have a nice group of prospects at the A/A+/AA level. Let's add a few more by trading Choo and Perez and create a wave of quality players who will emerge at the same time, hopefully while we still have Kipnis, Santana, Brantley, Allen, Carrasco and Pestano. Or we could go with your plan and trade Choo or Perez for somebody who was the MVP at AAA, like Russ Canzler.

Objection Your Honor! The Prosecutor's last statement was incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial. Nowhere, Your Honor, did I read in my fellow Georgian's post that he would like to trade valuable assets for AAAA players. The Learned Prosecutor is well aware that all Superstar MLB players were, at one time, ML ready prospects.

Actually daingean's post brings to mind the Colon to Montreal deal. At the time of the trade, Brandon Phillips was considered to be a ML ready player, having started the season in AAA Ottawa. He posted a .774 OPS over 55 games in Buffalo after the trade. He also put up a .762 OPS in 11 games with the big club later that year. Dammit, I still hate Eric Wedge.

Also, Cliff Lee started 8 games in Buffalo (3.77 ERA) that year plus 2 starts in Cleveland (1.74 ERA). Grady was the secondary prospect/2-3 year project daingean mentioned. I'd trade Choo and Asdrubal for a return like that.

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:08 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
I will say that if we do trade Choo and/or CPerez (and others) for prospects, I don't want any A ball prospects especially pitchers.

1. the strength of our team is at the A+/A/SS A/Rookie level
2. Most of our top pitching prospects have broken down as they ascended the minor league ladder - what makes anyone think that acquired pitching prospects in the A+ level and below will develop any better than Knapp, Miller, KDLC, or Rondon.
3. Our best success in acquiring pirchers in deals has been guys ready or near ready for the show.....not 2-3 year projects

I don't mind secondary prospects in the deals being 2-3 year projects but if we are trading Choo or C-Perez, I want guys that are less of projects and more of ML ready players.

I certainly understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure I agree. There have been a lot of prospects who dominated at the AA/AAA level and failed abysmally in the bigs. Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta come to mind immediately, along with Wes Hodges, Ben Francisco, and many others. Hafner, Sizemore, Phillips, and Lee were the most successful prospects we traded for recently, and none of them were major league ready when we acquired them. Neither was Asdrubal Cabrera or Carlos Santana.

If you insist on "major league ready" prospects you're not going to get as many, since they have higher value than the guys in A ball, who are considered more risky. A team like the Indians has to gamble. The only way the Indians will ever make it back to the World Series is if they are able to get a "wave" of prospects who all make it to the bigs at about the same time, when they are still young and affordable and under team control for a few years. If they lose a Sabathia or Lee or Victor Martinez every time a Grady Sizemore or Travis Hafner emerges from the minors, they'll never do better than 80-82.

So right now we have a nice group of prospects at the A/A+/AA level. Let's add a few more by trading Choo and Perez and create a wave of quality players who will emerge at the same time, hopefully while we still have Kipnis, Santana, Brantley, Allen, Carrasco and Pestano. Or we could go with your plan and trade Choo or Perez for somebody who was the MVP at AAA, like Russ Canzler.

Objection Your Honor! The Prosecutor's last statement was incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial. Nowhere, Your Honor, did I read in my fellow Georgian's post that he would like to trade valuable assets for AAAA players. The Learned Prosecutor is well aware that all Superstar MLB players were, at one time, ML ready prospects.

Actually daingean's post brings to mind the Colon to Montreal deal. At the time of the trade, Brandon Phillips was considered to be a ML ready player, having started the season in AAA Ottawa. He posted a .774 OPS over 55 games in Buffalo after the trade. He also put up a .762 OPS in 11 games with the big club later that year. Dammit, I still hate Eric Wedge.

Also, Cliff Lee started 8 games in Buffalo (3.77 ERA) that year plus 2 starts in Cleveland (1.74 ERA). Grady was the secondary prospect/2-3 year project daingean mentioned. I'd trade Choo and Asdrubal for a return like that.

Objection sustained...

by **Pork Chop Pough** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:30 pm

I'd also just point out that if Travis Hafner wasn't a major league ready prospect, I certainly have no idea what the definition of that term is. 25 year olds, who have already made their MLB debut, and post an OPS over .800 while spending most of their first year in the organization with the big club, sound pretty major league ready to me.

by **Edible14** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:37 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Edible14 wrote:I'd be pickled tink if the Indians & Chris Antonetti were able to somehow acquire one of the Pirates "Dynamic Duo". This duo is, of course, James Taillon and Gerrit Cole. (FWIW, either would be fine, but Taillon is the goods, imho) It would take an act of stupidity or desperation by Neil Huntington to move either of those guys as the Pirates have quite a mess in their starting rotation coming at him. These two guys are ticketed to the ML's as soon as they are ready. The Pirates also have two other serious problems where they are in dire need: shortstop, where Clint Barmes has pretty much stunk it up all season and corner outfield where they Buccos have had a revolving door in both LF and RF (CF is the only OF spot the Pirates have nailed down.. and aren't interested in trading). Travis Snider has pretty much paralleled the "dive" for the Pirates as he's been hitting "on the Interstate" since the trading deadline. Clint Barmes has a toll booth he calls home there.. After a pretty good start to his ML career (hitting .290 with 4 homers and an OPS of .872), Starling Marte appears to have hit the wall. He's had seven singles in 45 AB's since the middle of August and only one hit in all of September. The talent is there.. now it's just a matter of growing up/maturing...

So, the Pirates need a "Ready To Go" SS and an Corner OF'er that can play.. Funny.. the Indians have a corner OF'er that is being considered for trade (Shin-soo Choo) and a SS that is ready to go (Asdrubal Cabrera).. The fit can't be much cleaner. The issue becomes would the Indians be willing to part with TWO mainstays for one of the dynamic due and perhaps a pair of prospects such as Marte and Josh Bell?. Would the Pirates? Something to contemplate, I suppose...

So I'll ask. Would you do Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin-Soo Choo for Taillon or Cole? Would you need another prospect like Josh Bell thrown in?

Or, would it be better/more realistic to go for something like Choo (by himself) for Heredia and/or Bell? I've said that I think ace type pitchers are near untradeable for most clubs right now. Really, the only way I think the Pirates even think about trading one of Cole/Taillon is if they get at least Cabrera and Choo. But perhaps it's better to just dump Choo for lower level prospects as Prosecutor suggests. If Cole/Taillon are as good as advertised, they're probably untouchable. If they are available in a trade... then that suggests that maybe the Pirates don't think they're as good as everyone else thinks.

Besides, if we trade Cabrera, we're looking for rentals at SS for the next 3 years. Or we're hoping that Juan Diaz actually has learned to be a major league hitter.

by **GeronimoSon** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:40 am

Ed.. that's why I prefaced the suggestion with:

...It would take an act of stupidity or desperation by Neil Huntington to move either of those guys...

..but it's been done before..

W/R to Pros's suggestion of lower level prospect that create a wave. Waves comes in all sizes and shapes. Perhaps the 'wave' can be somewhat easier to understand / accept if they have names.. current teams.. etc..

So, for example.. a Boston Red Sox fan (read: not me) on one of the MLB speculative trade forums suggested the following:

Red Sox get:
Shin-soo Choo
Juan Diaz

Indians get:
Anthony Ranaudo
Garin Cecchini
Daniel Bard
Bryce Brentz

On the face of this suggestion, it looks like the Red Sox would be getting the best player in the trade and a usable piece in the form of short stop Juan Diaz. The Red Sox would be giving up a former #1 pick who had an "okay" 2011 but has been shut down for the 2012 season with "shoulder fatigue". What that means, IDK, but, after the shoulder issues experienced by Jason Knapp, the Indians would have to be a bit "gun shy". The next "Justin Masterson" in the form of Daniel Bard, who seems lost right now adds to the pile of 'players red sox fans dislike' and need to get rid of... The two additional pieces, Cecchini and Brentz are pretty decent prospects, especially, Brentz. Cecchini is a corner IF'er that would be blocked at the ML level by Middlebrooks. He's not exactly a glove guy and hasn't exactly been the healthiest having a broken wrist and knee surgery for a torn ACL since being drafted in 2010. His medical scares me, but make no mistake, his one plus tool is his ability to hit and get on base. Brentz, on the other hand, is a gamer. A total dirtbag that has a short very fast, powerful swing. He was a pitcher, so his arm plays very well as a RF'er. He'd become one of the top prospects in the Indians system if he were to be acquired and could be ready for the ML's as early as a late call up in the 2013 season.

Would I do this trade?. maybe.. probably.. I'd sure like to know more about Ranaudo's shoulder, though... comments?

by **GoTribe028** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:21 am

GeronimoSon wrote:So, for example.. a Boston Red Sox fan (read: not me) on one of the MLB speculative trade forums suggested the following:

Red Sox get:
Shin-soo Choo
Juan Diaz

Indians get:
Anthony Ranaudo
Garin Cecchini
Daniel Bard
Bryce Brentz

On the face of this suggestion, it looks like the Red Sox would be getting the best player in the trade and a usable piece in the form of short stop Juan Diaz. The Red Sox would be giving up a former #1 pick who had an "okay" 2011 but has been shut down for the 2012 season with "shoulder fatigue". What that means, IDK, but, after the shoulder issues experienced by Jason Knapp, the Indians would have to be a bit "gun shy". The next "Justin Masterson" in the form of Daniel Bard, who seems lost right now adds to the pile of 'players red sox fans dislike' and need to get rid of... The two additional pieces, Cecchini and Brentz are pretty decent prospects, especially, Brentz. Cecchini is a corner IF'er that would be blocked at the ML level by Middlebrooks. He's not exactly a glove guy and hasn't exactly been the healthiest having a broken wrist and knee surgery for a torn ACL since being drafted in 2010. His medical scares me, but make no mistake, his one plus tool is his ability to hit and get on base. Brentz, on the other hand, is a gamer. A total dirtbag that has a short very fast, powerful swing. He was a pitcher, so his arm plays very well as a RF'er. He'd become one of the top prospects in the Indians system if he were to be acquired and could be ready for the ML's as early as a late call up in the 2013 season.

This is the kind of deal I can see the Indians making. Probably should be making too. Brentz and Cecchini fit the mold of players the Indians should be targeting. Bard...eh, ok. Still has rediculous stuff, but he's so wild he's simply another BP arm added to the pile (Not a bad thing, but not a system weakness).

As far as Anthony Ranaudo, I don't know if the Sox would deal him. At least don't think they would, but who knows? As far as the Indians go I can see it as he's a prospect who's "shine" has worn off a bit (Z-Mac) who's upside probably ins't considered to be what it once was.

All this depends on what a team, the Red Sox in this case, consider fair value for Choo (plus perhaps). If the Red Sox think Choo is worth the 1 year then signing him to a long term deal is worth the investment I could see Choo being a monster at Fenway, but who's to say they even want Choo.

Plus, who's to say Chris Antonetti even has the ability to pull off said deal. Not to be debbie downer, but I have zero faith in Antonetti to suddenly just start 'getting it right'.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:47 am

I think we can examine the Dodgers, Dbax, Pirates, Red Sox, Giants, and Rangers closely. These are the teams with the most interest in guys right now according to reports. There are numerous prospects from these org. that I'd like to see the Tribe bring back in trades I've discussed and others as well. Here's a few of my favorites in particular....

Archie Bradley-RHSP Dbax, Tyler Skaggs-LHSP Dbax, Patrick Corbin-LHSP Dbax, Trevor Bauer-RHSP Dbax, Matt Davidson-RH hitting 1b, Mike Olt-RH hitting 1b Rangers, Martin Perez-LHSP Rangers, Justin Grimm-RHSP Rangers, Cody Buckel- RHSP Rangers, Ronald Guzman- LH hitting OF Rangers, Kyle Crick-RHSP Giants, Gary Brown-RH hitting OF Giants, Clayton Blackburn-RHSP Giants, Bryce Brentz-RH hitting OF RedSox, Matt Barnes-RHSP RedSox, Zach Lee-RHSP Dodgers, Gerrit Cole-RHSP Pirates, Jameson Taillon-RHSP Pirates and Josh Bell-SH hitting OF Pirates.

These are guys I think the Tribe could target in some of possible trades we will likely see this offseason.

by **GoTribe028** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:04 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think we can examine the Dodgers, Dbax, Pirates, Red Sox, Giants, and Rangers closely. These are the teams with the most interest in guys right now according to reports. There are numerous prospects from these org. that I'd like to see the Tribe bring back in trades I've discussed and others as well. Here's a few of my favorites in particular....

Archie Bradley-RHSP Dbax, Tyler Skaggs-LHSP Dbax, Patrick Corbin-LHSP Dbax, Trevor Bauer-RHSP Dbax, Matt Davidson-RH hitting 1b, Mike Olt-RH hitting 1b Rangers, Martin Perez-LHSP Rangers, Justin Grimm-RHSP Rangers, Cody Buckel- RHSP Rangers, Ronald Guzman- LH hitting OF Rangers, Kyle Crick-RHSP Giants, Gary Brown-RH hitting OF Giants, Clayton Blackburn-RHSP Giants, Bryce Brentz-RH hitting OF RedSox, Matt Barnes-RHSP RedSox, Zach Lee-RHSP Dodgers, Gerrit Cole-RHSP Pirates, Jameson Taillon-RHSP Pirates and Josh Bell-SH hitting OF Pirates.

These are guys I think the Tribe could target in some of possible trades we will likely see this offseason.

Rangers and Red Sox stick out to me as most likely trade partners. In the end, the Indians need to get the best players available.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:08 am

I believe the Tribe could look to move Masterson this offseason, if they decide a total rebuild is in order, and I think it is. Then I'd expect they move Masterson with the hopes of getting a Mat Latos, Gio Gonzalez type return. If they go this route and we might expect to see Henandez and Jimenez brought back and a cpl other vets brought in to help log the innings.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:03 am

Here's a cpl of the type deals we see the Tribe make this offseason.

-Justin Masterson to the Rangers for Mike Olt-1b/LF, Cody Buckel-RHSP, Luke Jackson-RHSP, and Ronald Guzman-OF.

-Chris Perez to the Giants for Kyle Crick-RHSP, and Andrew Susac-C.

-Shin Soo Choo and Joe Smith to the Red Sox for Matt Barnes-RHSP, Bryce Brentz-OF, Brandon Jacobs-OF and Anthony Ranaudo-RHSP.

-Asdrubal Cabrera to the Dbax for Trevor Bauer-RHSP, Matt Davidson-1b/3b and Andrew Chafin-LHSP

The breakdown:
The tribe would trade; ACab, Masterson, Joe Smith, Perez, and Choo and would get back...

Indians:
Mike Olt-1b/LF
Trevor Bauer-RHSP
Matt Davidson-1b

Clippers:
Bryce Brentz-RF
Matt Barnes-RHSP

Aeros:
Luke Jackson-RHSP
Cody Buckel-RHSP
Anthony Ranaudo-RHSP
Andrew Susac-C
Brandon Jacobs-OF

Mudcats:
Kyle Crick-RHSP
Andrew Chafin-LHSP

Scrappers:
Ronald Guzman-OF

by **criznit2009** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:57 pm

@homer IMO you are over estimating the value Masterson to other teams. Sure he our best SP but his numbers are suspect enough for other teams to be quite cautious. Besides his value is low right now and his greatest value for the tribe is to remain an indian for now. Now next year trade deadline time, that's a whole different scenario.....

by **homerawayfromhome** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:16 pm

@ criznit... I'm not so sure, I know the Rangers have money to spend and plenty of talent too. Maybe I am over estimating the value of Masterson but I would consider this deal less than that which the A's got for Gonzalez and less than what the Padres for Latos last offseason. The Rangers only be sending Mike Olt who I think would immediately start at 1b, or LF and DH. Cody Buckel is a talented but undersized RHSP but with some up side. Luke Jackson is another talented RHSP in A ball right now. Finally, Ronald Guzman the 17yo international signing is big time upside but also yrs away. That would be the Rangers 2, 4, 13 and 16 best prospects. I don't think that's too much to ask for Masterson with two yrs of control and fairly cost controlled too, although I do acknowledge he's had a rough yr Masterson still has #2 stuff and that's what I would want to land him.

by **GeronimoSon** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:14 pm

hmm.. while Mike Olt has clearly put up some impressive numbers.. he's hitting in the Texas League, a league notorious for being very kind to hitters. Along with his power numbers, Olt also brings a significant "swing and miss" tool.. Everywhere he's been, he K's at a rate greater than 1 in for AB's..

W/R to Ronald Guzman..okay, he's an interesting young (very young) kid. IDK what to expect from him but he certainly has the body / projection to become something very special.. How about Lewis Brinson and Jairo Beras (both names that were very high on my list of young OF'ers that the Indians should attempt to acquire, either through draft of IFA)...

by **homerawayfromhome** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:00 pm

I like Olt's bat. I'm not expecting a 300 hitter, I would be happy to get about .250 avg 25 hrs and 40 doubles. But its the RH power i want in the lineup. I completely agree he's going to get plenty of K's. Also, Beras and Brinson were 2 names I considered throwing in that type deal, but I tried to be real with what they could get.

I was really trying to identify...
1. realistic deals
2. Potential returns
3. how much a makeover that could occur in the farm system.

by **Edible14** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:34 pm

So I've been thinking about this, and couldn't think of where else to put it. I've maintained that the problem with this team is starting pitching, and that's true. Shapiro and company said that this team was to be built through pitching, but right now you look at the existing starters and the guys in AA/AAA and you see a lot of back end guys. Guys that, at best, would be a bunch of Jake Westbrooks. Not that Westbrook isn't a good pitcher, but to truly be competitive in this league, you need top tier starting pitching. Especially when your offense isn't so hot. And that's the part that I think depresses me most going forward, is that we don't have a lot of high potential arms in the pipeline. So how did it get to this point?

The build for 2012 began in 2008, that's when CC was traded and the team began looking to trade old pieces for new. At the time, the Indians had a bunch of middling types of prospects (Laffey, Jensen Lewis), but they also were still hoping for Adam Miller to come around. If the build began here, there looked to be several good pieces to build with. Miller was there, and down in the system was the "latin trio" of De La Cruz, Rondon and Gomez. They had Tomlin in the system. This year they also drafted Trey Haley as their top pitching pick.

In 2009, they sold harder. Lee brought back two guys who were thought to be top of the rotation types in Carrasco and Knapp. Victor brought back two guys that had great stuff but we were unsure whether they'd stay in the rotation or have to move to the bullpen. They traded Garko for Scott Barnes. Three of the top 5 picks were pitchers - Alex White, Joe Gardner and Austin Adams.

In 2010, they finished the selling by bringing in Soto, Kluber and McAllister for guys on the last years of their contract. The top 3 pitchers drafted were Pomeranz, Cole Cook and Kyle Blair.

2011, they contended. At least to start the year. But the rotation was BAD. I won't list the draft picks here because they're honestly too new to say anything meaningful about. But let's see what we have here.

Adam Miller - injured
Tomlin - One very good year, now looks like a 4/5 starter or worse
Kelvin De La Cruz - Wild, converted to bullpen role, washed out
Rondon - Injured several times, probably a reliever at best now
Gomez - Ineffective at the major league level
Haley - Wild, converted to reliever
Carrasco - Injured
Knapp - Injured repeatedly, now out of baseball
Masterson - Good starter, not an ace
Hagadone - Wild, bullpen
Barnes - Injured, converted to bullpen, backend option if he remains as starter
White - Traded, not doing well so far, but it's Colorado so perhaps that's why
Gardner - Traded, losing prospect status, unclear whether he'll actually be a major league pitcher of worth
Adams - Injured
Soto - Doing well in Akron, hasn't reached majors yet
Kluber - Back of the rotation arm
McAllister - A good pickup
Pomeranz - See White
Blair - Reliever
Cook - Back of the rotation guy

There's 5 guys on that list that became injury cases. They also happen to be the 5 guys that maybe had the biggest potential aside from Pomeranz/White. That's a lot, and perhaps there's reason to say that the Indians FO had a monumental string of bad luck here. But that's not the whole picture.

Another 5 of those 19 names are guys that couldn't put it together as starters, and instead had to be made into relievers. This has become all too common here. These things do happen with prospects, BUT, it has to speak to a failing on the front office in some way. Either they weren't coached well enough, or the scouts haven't been doing a good enough job in picking out guys who will be able to stick as a starter.

Which leaves us left with a bunch of mediocre options. Gomez, McAllister, Kluber, and Tomlin had to be relied upon to become starters 2-5, roles to which they are not really suited. Masterson has been pressed into the ace role. At Columbus right now you have a trio of backend guys in Packer (32nd round, 2009), Cook (5th, 2010) and McFarland (4th, 2007). Next year we'll have Barnes maybe back in the rotation, providing more of the exact same.

There's still some hope left for some of these guys, Carrasco being the big one. Soto is still coming along. Salazar is making some waves in Akron. Adams might come back from injury and be something better than average. But there is very little hope for a big impact pitcher coming along soon. The Indians decision to trade for Ubaldo was controversial, but at the very least it symbolized that the Indians FO knew that there was a big problem with the front of the rotation. Even the lower minors look a bit bare in this department. The top names there - Sterling, Araujo, Howard, Sisco - haven't been making a lot of noise and they are really far away.

There's a lot of damning evidence here. All of the bigger prospects failed, leaving us with a very mediocre rotation and very little shot at developing a big ace any time soon. The Naquin pick doesn't help. I'm not in favor of firing the front office just to say you've fired the front office. That doesn't help anyone. But clearly there has to be some changes about how we scout, acquire and develop pitchers.

by **timdav** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:53 pm

Edible....The Indians farm system has failed to produce many major league players (certainly very, very few legitimate stars) since the late 90's....before the Dolan's bought the team.

The Indians FO has a 15+, 2-owner track record of poor draft choices, weak player development, and big trades that blow up in their faces.

If they can't seen to be able to succesfully draft & dvelop players and can't really make successful trades...how on earth can this franchise ever become good enough to have a prayer of winning another World Series ring???

Replacing the front office for the sake of replacing them? No offense, but in this situation that doesn't even make any sense.

by **daingean** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:12 pm

Edible - I have no faith in this organization developing an impact SP arm. Only Colon, CC, and Jaret Wright have come through the system from draft to the majors in a long time. The next one they develop will be the first in a decade (or more) unless you consider Sowers, Huff and Gutherie impact arms. This is one reason why I don't want to trade our top players for A arms or even draft guys in the first round. Prove to me that you can do it before you waste a top pick or a grade A trading chip on a lower level arm.

by **GhostofTedCox** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:30 pm

Last place.

The last time the Indians finished with the worst record in the league was 1991. Then they wound up 57-105.
That team had a bad time at mid-season, and Manager John McNamara was replaced with Mike Hargrove.
But they never quit like this years team. That cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

The 91 team had a few foundation players. They did have Albert Belle, Sandy Alomar, Carlos Baerga, and Jim Thome was 20 years old. Charles Nagy was also on the team.

The present team may have foundation pieces in Kipnis, Santana, and maybe Brantley. (I'm being generous).

But the stench of quiting this season must be cleansed from the organization. The front office, manager, coaches, and the majority of the players should be replaced. Anyone who stood by, said nothing, and did nothing, has to go.

by **timdav** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:26 pm

GhostofTedCox....Sure hope what you say must be done actually happens.

The Dolans aren't going anywhere. But, there needs to be an entirely new culture in this organization. And, like in any troubled business, it starts at the top and works downward.

Terry Pluto said in his Plain Dealer column today he can't ever remember the current high level of anger coming from hardcore Indians fans. If you haven't seen the story, check out cleveland.com and go to Terry's column today (Wednesday).

I'm not a football fan (but wish the Browns the best with their new owner). But, besides baseball, I am a Cavs fan and simply love the passion of their owner Dan Gilbert, and their front office, entire organization, including their players. These guys seem incredibly committed to building a winner. Not just making money and making excuses when they fail.

by **go_tribe** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:00 pm

@homer, the only trade idea I like in your scenario is the Asdrubal to the Dbax, but I see no way they trade Bauer in that deal, not a chance.

No way do I want them to move Masterson at his lowest value, especially for over-rated bats like Olt. We need all the help we can get in our rotation, thats why we keep Masterson and hope this years ups and downs can be corrected. With no offense, our best hope at competing is to go pitching in every trade we make.

by **timdav** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:51 am

go_tribe: You're right.

Even though offense is important in the American League, pitching is critical...the foundation of any successful baseball team.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:20 am

I agree pitching wins championships this teams needs both. The trades I suggested brought back 7 pitchers 3 I think will be be good arms if the Tribe made those kind of moves. Those trades also netted 3 OF, 2 1b and 1 C. I agree though the Tribe is likely to lean toward pitching.

by **ironmike** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:58 am

Ted Cox agree with you. I'm certain Manny was asking for players. Just go back and read some of the comments he made prior and up to the deadline.

Problem is, the owner doesn't know the importance or how to hire the right baseball people. The root of the problem is the owner and his lack of knowledge to run a MLB team. Owner has to go as well.

by **Edible14** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:12 pm

I want to say something about the ownership. I think they're very average owners. I think they probably don't know a whole lot about baseball, but I don't think that's really that big of a deal. I'm fine with owners leaving the baseball decisions to baseball people. But here's the problem I have with rooting for a sale.

1) There is zero guarantee that you'd be able to find an investor that actually wants to keep the team here. There's lots of guys out there that want to own teams. A big percentage of them want to own them to move the team into a city of their choosing where they can get a lucrative stadium deal and all that (see: Clay Bennett).

2) So you found a local partner. Do they also buy up STO, or does that stay with the Dolans? Does the amount of money being poured into the team by that network change?

3) Say you've figured that out. How will the fanbase react if you're spending roughly the same amount of money on players? Because let's be honest, a new owner is not likely to be an Illitch type. Asking for that means you'd want somebody who's okay with buying the team for a few hundred million, and then perfectly okay with losing tens of millions of dollars for a few years. What you're asking for there is "why won't any billionaires just drop a half a billion on my team with hardly any expectation of getting that money back". That's much like wishing that someday someone will just give you a million bucks for no reason. It'd sure be nice, but it's not happening. But that's what a lot of fans are hoping and borderline expecting out of a new owner. You most certainly aren't rooting for a more stingy type as an owner, but there are certainly more stingy people than the current group (stingier people wouldn't raise the payroll to $80M in 2008, wouldn't be doing things like Snow Days, wouldn't have invested money in starting up STO).

4) Given that you're looking at a small group of guys who you'd "want" to be owners (and if we're really going for the Illitch-like requirement, that's probably actually a group of zero), what's the probability that the person who buys isn't also completely clueless on baseball, or maybe even moreso than the Dolans?

Unless you think that a new ownership group would be more knowledgeable about the game (and would therefor hire better people to get better results), I'm not sure why you're rooting for the Dolans to sell. There's a bunch of things that can go disastrously wrong with that sale, and ownership only dictates so much of what happens on the field.

by **timdav** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:21 pm

From what I understand, there are NOT a lot of billionaires standing in line hoping to buy a baseball team in Cleveland.

Besides...there's no really large revenue markets without baseball teams in the US that you could move a small market team to.

by **homerawayfromhome** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:15 pm

There's a lot of talk about Carlos Villanueva wanting to be a starting pitcher. Villanueva hasn't convinced me he can be a long term starter but I'd go out and make an offer of $5-$6 mil on a one yr deal. I think Villanueva could be a better option than Jimenez or Hernandez who I've been a fan of for yrs but I'm ready to see the Tribe move on from Hernandez and Jimenez. I'd also try to land a guy like Erik Bedard for $1-$2 mil on a minor league deal and to add a little insurance in case Barnes struggles in moving back to the rotation.

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