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Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:43 am

IMO, any trade the Indians make that includes Choo, Cabrerra, Masterson, or C-Perez needs to include near ML ready prospects or ML ready prospects. I am NOT interested in getting project pieces that will take 2 or more years to be ready especially pitchers. My feelings on going for pitchers w/2+ years to be ready has been scarred by the Knapp deal and seeing too many top pitching prospects get moved to the BP or injured and forced out of baseball. As for position players, we have a lot of top prospects at the A+ level and below and many of these will continue to develop but we are much weaker prospect-wise at AA and above.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:12 am

I completely agree. I seriously doubt the Tribe would deal for a kid in A ball as the primary piece in any deal. That said I do believe if it were a 3 for 1 type deal the return would be largely 2/3rds players ready for the bigs now. Unless say the Tribe dealt ACab for say Trevor Bauer, (which id love to see) than any other part would likely be AA or less in return, or a limited ceiling type bench / role player... or maybe a guy like Matt Davidson or Ryan Wheeler, both of whom have their questions. Personally, I'd prefer Davidson bc he's probably a limited to 1b maybe some 3b as needed but is a RH hitter with some pop. Wheeler on the otherhand is a lefty hitter and also likely a future 1b type.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:45 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I completely agree. I seriously doubt the Tribe would deal for a kid in A ball as the primary piece in any deal. That said I do believe if it were a 3 for 1 type deal the return would be largely 2/3rds players ready for the bigs now. Unless say the Tribe dealt ACab for say Trevor Bauer, (which id love to see) than any other part would likely be AA or less in return, or a limited ceiling type bench / role player... or maybe a guy like Matt Davidson or Ryan Wheeler, both of whom have their questions. Personally, I'd prefer Davidson bc he's probably a limited to 1b maybe some 3b as needed but is a RH hitter with some pop. Wheeler on the otherhand is a lefty hitter and also likely a future 1b type.


I'm okay with secondary pieces to be lower level guys. Probably should have stated that but I do not want any primary pieces (especially pitching) to be lower level guys. BTW, I was at Turner Field earlier this year for Bauer's ML debut - he got roughed up a little but didn't get blown out.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:51 am

Had my druthers I'd take Skaggs over Bauer. I'd take Skaggs over any pitching spec not named Bundy.

Really think Skaggs + Corbin or Wheeler, Mike Olt+, & Kyle Crick/Clayton Blackburn should be gettable for Asdrubal, Choo, & CP plus a minor league reliever or three. Can't see why not.

Skaggs is the jewel. Corbin's a #3 at best, probably a 4/5 but we need LHSP's & he has decent peripherals. Wheeler seems destined for 1B, which he could handle defensively with ease. Does his bat fit? Olt is good & fills a need but he's already 24. He doesn't blow me away but his upside is a .800+ OPS guy who can field his position. I'd think Wheeler/Olt can cover 1B/RF. Krick & Blackburn are the only guys I like in the SF system. Not sold on Gary Brown at all. We already have Jordan Henry.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:36 am

I'm not huge on Brown. I do believe he can be an adequate starting RH hitting CF, but also the reason I would want Blackburn and Crick. Crick looks like a future 2/3 IMO and Blackburn a 3/4.
I really like Olt's RH power.
I like Bauer and so do / did the Tribe. From my understanding they would have picked Archie Bradley over Lindor, i seriously doubt they move him unless he was the primary piece of a blockbuster deal. I also like Skaggs and Corbin... It would depend on the total pkg in return as for the main piece in a deal with the DBax. I'd prefer...
1a. Bauer,
1b. Skaggs
2. Davidson
3. Wheeler
The Pirates are another team the Tribe could end up dealing with and they have a interesting prospects.
Something that may affect the number of ACab's suitors is the availability of JJHardy bc of Manny Machado.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:06 am

It was announced that the Angels have released scout Eddie Bane. Bane was responsible for getting Mike Trout, Jered Weaver, Mark Trumbo, and others. Bane admitted that he did not get along with the GM.

Bane should be FA target number 1 for the Indians.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:08 am

@ GhostofTedCox...
I like the way you think, let's go get him.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:00 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:@ GhostofTedCox...
I like the way you think, let's go get him.

+1

Brad Grant, meet your new MVP.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby timdav » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:49 pm

Didn't Eddie Bane used to be a major league pitcher? For the Twins, I think. Not sure. Maybe just the same name.....different person.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:13 pm

The Tribe already has a Bane running things - the guy from The Dark Knight...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:41 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:It was announced that the Angels have released scout Eddie Bane. Bane was responsible for getting Mike Trout, Jered Weaver, Mark Trumbo, and others. Bane admitted that he did not get along with the GM.

Bane should be FA target number 1 for the Indians.


Well I hope the Indians could bring him into the fold simply because of his badass name, but if he had a hand in said players, he's at least worth talking to. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Houston Astros back up the truck to his house.

Just a quick off topic comment, I like what Jeff Lunhow is doing out there with how very little he had to play with. I really like the idea of bringing in Kevin Goldstein to be their pro scouting director, very outside the box if you ask me. I will be watching closely to see how things develop in Houston.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:48 pm

The Angels released Bane two years ago... he's been working with the Tigers since. Old news or typo?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:52 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:It was announced that the Angels have released scout Eddie Bane. Bane was responsible for getting Mike Trout, Jered Weaver, Mark Trumbo, and others. Bane admitted that he did not get along with the GM.

Bane should be FA target number 1 for the Indians.


Well I hope the Indians could bring him into the fold simply because of his badass name, but if he had a hand in said players, he's at least worth talking to. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Houston Astros back up the truck to his house.

Just a quick off topic comment, I like what Jeff Lunhow is doing out there with how very little he had to play with. I really like the idea of bringing in Kevin Goldstein to be their pro scouting director, very outside the box if you ask me. I will be watching closely to see how things develop in Houston.


+1

Luhnow has been quoted as saying that he intends to guide the rebuilding of the Astros by assembling a farm system he can rely on to produce major league caliber players that will create the core of a winning team/franchise. He further expanded on this plan saying that he believes that it will take time for the plan to manifest, however, will be willing to invest in FA's and make astute trades to hasten the process.. sounds like a plan we've all heard...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:04 pm

Promoting Thomas Neal to the ML club is a good step toward building the 2013 club.. Thomas Neal will be given the opportunity to show he can play at the highest level during September.. Neal has shown a solid 10 % BB rate while striking out less than one time in each six plate appearance... He also represents something the Indians FO should play up: If you work hard, progress and improve, you will be rewarded with promotion.. The addition of guys like Damon and Cunningham, et al. goes against that message..

Good luck to TDaddyNeal in his ML debut.. hopefully as early as today against RHSP Feldman.. or tomorrow when the Rangers have Derek Holland, a lefty, on the hill.. Neal has shown 'some' ability to hit either RHP's or LHP's.. So, platooning him shouldn't be an obstacle to giving him plenty of AB's during September...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:51 pm

I hope Thomas Neal the best, the Tribe needs him that's for sure. I'm glad to see that he got the call up and Scott Barnes too. I think both of these guys will be 'players' for roster spots next yr. Hopefully Neal shows that he can be at least a fill in type OF, while Barnes needs to get stretched out again for next season as a SP he still needs to get the experience at the MLB level.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby artgold » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:45 am

Neal, Fedroff, Canzler, Phelps and Barnes should all be playing extensively the remainder of the season.

Barnes should get a regular turn in the rotation, not in the bullpen.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:31 am

I completely agree, ArtGold...

Phelps, Neal, Fedroff, Barnes and Canzler should get significant playing time down the stretch.

As good as he has been Phelps is often the forgotten man IMO. Phelps deserves an opportunity and will get one, honestly I just don't see Phelps with a future with the Tribe. I could see him more as a utility type for the Tribe playing a little everywhere. But truth be told I expect Phelps to be an add-in in a larger trade that sends one of Choo, CPerez, ACab, Joe Smith, Sipp or Masterson out of town.

I completely understand guys like Canzler, Fedroff, Neal and Phelps all have limited ceilings but when that's what you have in house than that's what you have to play the games with. At this point the Tribe should have already dumped a guy like Kotchman and had one or two of these guys up IMO. There are still potential roster moves the Tribe could make for instance moving Tomlin from the 15 day DL to the 60 day DL would clear a roster spot, but with Chisenhall due back I suppose they are likely saving that move for his return.

I suppose this shows the sad state of the Indians upper farm system. There is a tremendous amount of young talented kids deep into the farm, and I completely disagree with anyone who would suggest the system is void of real talent however the majority of the kids are still A ball or less and there is still plenty of time for guys to flame out or turn it around (DHoward?) Two names that I think could be key to the Tribe in the future...Mitch Brown and DVone McClure. Brown is a kid that I think could really begin to take off next yr and I wouldnt be shocked to see him knocking on the big league door in 2/3 yrs as a top 5 prospect. I think Brown could see MV, LC and Carolina late next yr. and frankly wouldnt be shocked to see him jump MV, then again the Tribe does have some arms worth developing at higher levels. McClure has tremendous raw talent and may take a bit longer but is a high ceiling kid I think the Tribe can rewarded if they are patient with him.

Sorry for the tangent, my point is while there is a drop or lack in talent in the upper levels there are still talented kids deep within the org. some of which should begin to emerge even next yr as guys like Aguilar and RRod push closer to the bigs. All of the Tribes answers will not come through trades, but there should be a real rebuild at the ML level.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby indians1 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:21 am

I just don't see any help from an offensive standpoint coming from our farm system anytime soon.

The guys people most talk about are jesus aguilar and ronny rodriguez, their BB-K ratio is horrible. When it is horrible at levels like A+ ball, there should be worry about how these guys project at the majors.

Rodriguez has 19 HR's. Good for him but he has a 4-1 K--BB strikeout ratio. That isn't going to cut it at the higher levels and in the majors.

So we need to stop with this "oh we got so much talent at the lower levels" crap. We have mediocre-average talent.

If we pin our hopes on these so-so prospects that is how the indians end up signing guys like kotcman, damon, duncun and hannahan to play major roles with the team. Because all your prospects flame out.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby timdav » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:42 am

Is it possible for a baseball franchise like the Indians to be profitable and have a truly legitimate shot at winning it all (World Series ring) once in awhile?

If building a great farm system for a smaller revenue market team like the Indians is critical to being successful on the field....quit fooling around: DO IT!

Nobody begrudges the Dolans making money with the Cleveland Indians. We are all capitalists.

But, your business is sports/entertainment. The teams get their revenues from the spending and attention of fans. It's that simple.

Show us that while it is a business, you guys have legitimate passion to win the ultimate prize once in awhile. Do so, and we'll give you our money. Everybody wins.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:24 pm

I completely agree, Timdav...

As I stated in an earlier post, I think the best thing Dolan can do (besides sell from a fan perspective ) is to clean house, keep a select few like Alomar and Grant, tell fans he was wrong, drop prices, bring in a few FA to round out the team and try to bring in the right talent evaluators, fill the upper levels and big club with talent through several big trades i.e. Choo, Cabrera, CPerez, and Masterson.

Also, all the answers won't come through trades, some of these kids already in the system will have to begin to step up and produce. They simply can't afford many misses with the more talented kids already on the farm but also any that are brought into supplement the big club. The good news is there are a real number of high ceiling kids deep in the system that could push through the system qkly.

It's also vital the tribe hit on a good number of players they acq. Guys like Olt, Davidson, Bauer, Skaggs, Brentz,Barnes, Marte have to become more than roster filler, but sound real major leaguers.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:11 pm

indians1 wrote:I just don't see any help from an offensive standpoint coming from our farm system anytime soon.

The guys people most talk about are jesus aguilar and ronny rodriguez, their BB-K ratio is horrible. When it is horrible at levels like A+ ball, there should be worry about how these guys project at the majors.

Rodriguez has 19 HR's. Good for him but he has a 4-1 K--BB strikeout ratio. That isn't going to cut it at the higher levels and in the majors.

So we need to stop with this "oh we got so much talent at the lower levels" crap. We have mediocre-average talent.

If we pin our hopes on these so-so prospects that is how the indians end up signing guys like kotcman, damon, duncun and hannahan to play major roles with the team. Because all your prospects flame out.


I don't disagree that there are major concerns with both guys, but I think those concerns are pretty well-documented as well. As well as Aguilar has played, he's not a top 5 prospect here on most lists, even though they don't have much in the system to begin with. For what it's worth, Aguilar is also doing pretty well at Akron right now. Aguilar gets a bit of press because he's a righty, power-hitting first baseman. Which is basically everything the Tribe needs offensively. Both are definitely not sure things. I'd argue that Ronny is probably the 4th best SS prospect in the org right now.

There are still very good prospects, but you listed the two that have the most glaring problems. The guy that gets the most ink is Lindor, followed by Paulino. Both of them are years away, but they're both doing pretty well.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:29 pm

Edible14 wrote:
indians1 wrote:I just don't see any help from an offensive standpoint coming from our farm system anytime soon.

The guys people most talk about are jesus aguilar and ronny rodriguez, their BB-K ratio is horrible. When it is horrible at levels like A+ ball, there should be worry about how these guys project at the majors.

Rodriguez has 19 HR's. Good for him but he has a 4-1 K--BB strikeout ratio. That isn't going to cut it at the higher levels and in the majors.

So we need to stop with this "oh we got so much talent at the lower levels" crap. We have mediocre-average talent.

If we pin our hopes on these so-so prospects that is how the indians end up signing guys like kotcman, damon, duncun and hannahan to play major roles with the team. Because all your prospects flame out.


I don't disagree that there are major concerns with both guys, but I think those concerns are pretty well-documented as well. As well as Aguilar has played, he's not a top 5 prospect here on most lists, even though they don't have much in the system to begin with. For what it's worth, Aguilar is also doing pretty well at Akron right now. Aguilar gets a bit of press because he's a righty, power-hitting first baseman. Which is basically everything the Tribe needs offensively. Both are definitely not sure things. I'd argue that Ronny is probably the 4th best SS prospect in the org right now.

There are still very good prospects, but you listed the two that have the most glaring problems. The guy that gets the most ink is Lindor, followed by Paulino. Both of them are years away, but they're both doing pretty well.


Aguilar brings power. The BB-K rate doesn't worry me as long as the OPS is up there. Plus he's a Latin America prospect and patience is one thing those prospects need to learn more. Both him and R-Rod still have time to learn the strike zone.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:22 am

daingean wrote:
Edible14 wrote:
indians1 wrote:I just don't see any help from an offensive standpoint coming from our farm system anytime soon.

The guys people most talk about are jesus aguilar and ronny rodriguez, their BB-K ratio is horrible. When it is horrible at levels like A+ ball, there should be worry about how these guys project at the majors.

Rodriguez has 19 HR's. Good for him but he has a 4-1 K--BB strikeout ratio. That isn't going to cut it at the higher levels and in the majors.

So we need to stop with this "oh we got so much talent at the lower levels" crap. We have mediocre-average talent.

If we pin our hopes on these so-so prospects that is how the indians end up signing guys like kotcman, damon, duncun and hannahan to play major roles with the team. Because all your prospects flame out.


I don't disagree that there are major concerns with both guys, but I think those concerns are pretty well-documented as well. As well as Aguilar has played, he's not a top 5 prospect here on most lists, even though they don't have much in the system to begin with. For what it's worth, Aguilar is also doing pretty well at Akron right now. Aguilar gets a bit of press because he's a righty, power-hitting first baseman. Which is basically everything the Tribe needs offensively. Both are definitely not sure things. I'd argue that Ronny is probably the 4th best SS prospect in the org right now.

There are still very good prospects, but you listed the two that have the most glaring problems. The guy that gets the most ink is Lindor, followed by Paulino. Both of them are years away, but they're both doing pretty well.


Aguilar brings power. The BB-K rate doesn't worry me as long as the OPS is up there. Plus he's a Latin America prospect and patience is one thing those prospects need to learn more. Both him and R-Rod still have time to learn the strike zone.


Russ Canzler leads the Indians minors in HR production.. followed by Goedert, LaPorta and Phelps.. Not a single one of these guys is going to be considered an elite prospect within the Indians system.. Goedert hasn't even been given so much as a call up for a cup of coffee after hammering nearly twenty or more homers each of the last three years from the right side of the plate.. Cord Phelps is the best 2B in the MiLB..he has almost no chance at getting time with the Indians. Tim Fedroff.. hasn't hit below .320 all season.. but he's still in Columbus.. Matt LaPorta might as well change his name to "persona-non-grata" as he's been yo-yo'ed from the minors to the majors, from DH to LF to 1B to who knows where.. and has now been in and out of the lineup after being called up to play "every day" for who knows how long while not getting to play more than a game here or there.. Afterall, it's important that Casey Kotchman w/ his repertoire of rolled over 17 hoppers to the second baseman for double plays be in the lineup instead of Matt... The sad fact of the matter.. Matt LaPorta will soon be leaving the wigwam after being jerked around for his entire stay in this organization.

BTW..the same program of moving positions (C, 1B, DH, & LF).. and being moved to several spots in the linuep.. is being applied to Carlos Santana.. If you don't learn from history..you're doomed to repeat it.. Santana should be put in one spot AND LEFT THERE..

A startling plan, starting right now, on the latest 10 game roadie.. should be: If you have almost no chance of being in Cleveland in 2013, you should get almost no playing time the rest of the way.. and that includes Casey Kotchman, Jack Hannahan, Ubaldo, Fausto, Shin-soo Choo, Chris Perez..etc.. Most of these guy won't be in Cleveland in 2013.. No reason for them to be on the field for the rest of 2012..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:28 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Matt LaPorta might as well change his name to "persona-non-grata" as he's been yo-yo'ed from the minors to the majors, from DH to LF to 1B to who knows where.. and has now been in and out of the lineup after being called up to play "every day" for who knows how long while not getting to play more than a game here or there.. Afterall, it's important that Casey Kotchman w/ his repertoire of rolled over 17 hoppers to the second baseman for double plays be in the lineup instead of Matt... The sad fact of the matter.. Matt LaPorta will soon be leaving the wigwam after being jerked around for his entire stay in this organization.


Matt LaPorta had his chance. He was the regular first baseman all of last year and put up atrocious numbers while fielding poorly. He's shown absolutely zero reason to believe he's fixed his issues with breaking pitches in AAA this year. And he's continuing to show that he's a terrible major league option. It will not be sad when he is DFA'd sometime this offseason. As bad as Kotchman is, he's STILL a better first baseman than Matt LaPorta.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:21 pm

Edible14 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Matt LaPorta might as well change his name to "persona-non-grata" as he's been yo-yo'ed from the minors to the majors, from DH to LF to 1B to who knows where.. and has now been in and out of the lineup after being called up to play "every day" for who knows how long while not getting to play more than a game here or there.. Afterall, it's important that Casey Kotchman w/ his repertoire of rolled over 17 hoppers to the second baseman for double plays be in the lineup instead of Matt... The sad fact of the matter.. Matt LaPorta will soon be leaving the wigwam after being jerked around for his entire stay in this organization.


Matt LaPorta had his chance. He was the regular first baseman all of last year and put up atrocious numbers while fielding poorly. He's shown absolutely zero reason to believe he's fixed his issues with breaking pitches in AAA this year. And he's continuing to show that he's a terrible major league option. It will not be sad when he is DFA'd sometime this offseason. As bad as Kotchman is, he's STILL a better first baseman than Matt LaPorta.


TBH.. NO.. he wasn't the regular first baseman all of last year..IDK where you get that.. A player.. any player..can't generate the consistency needed by starting at DH here.. playing some LF there.. once in a great while play some 1B.. and never more than a few games at a time..

As far as his issues... I don't know what Matt LaPorta can do as a first baseman..or a LF.. or a DH.. his chances came in fits and starts and around ankle injuries and other inconsistent chances to own the starting 1B job.. Is he a ML 1B?.. I doubt it.. but it isn't from having a consistent opportunity to play.. Can he fix the penchant he has to chase the outside corner curve ball.. I D K.. and he won't be given much of a chance.. He's was brought up nearly two weeks ago (about 10 days) has been given exactly 15 at bats..

15 friggan at bats.. that's it.. in 10 games.. WTF IS THAT????!???!???!???

It's just more of the same with him.. Yo-yo'ed in and out of the lineup and then when he doesn't generate any consistency.. it's.. well.. he's been here twice..11 AB's in a week one time and 15 AB's in a week and half the next time.. ANYONE who says he's had his chance.. is kidding themselves...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:07 pm

I'm getting that from the fact that LaPorta started 93 games there in 2010 and 89 there in 2011 before being demoted for being awful. He played exactly zero games in the outfield in 2011 (and only 7 in 2010), and has yet to play there in 2012 for Cleveland. In 2010/2011, he never played in the outfield for Cleveland, and only had a dozen or so games each year where he was either a pinch-hitter that never took the field or a DH.

I'm not of the belief that somehow a player develops hitting issues because he's not in the same position in the field every game. Ben Zobrist is a fine hitter for the Rays, Lance Berkman plays many different positions, and many teams go by a DH by committee. It's an old myth that comes from bench players playing multiple positions. They get stuck at multiple positions because they don't hit well enough to get a position to themselves. If you suck at hitting, you suck at hitting. Matt LaPorta sucks at hitting. LaPorta had 217 games (the vast majority at 1B) between the last two years to prove he didn't. Most players don't get nearly that kind of rope to hang themselves with. He only got as much as he did because he was a top prospect who was included in the CC Sabathia trade.

Has he had a rough go of it this year? Sure. He hasn't been given much opportunity. What makes you think he deserves more? If the coaches and scouts all say he has the same issues that caused him to suck in the first place, what impetus is there to call him up when Kotchman was doing okay-ish and the Indians were in a playoff chase? Now that we're out of it, it makes sense to call him up - and they did. And it makes sense to give him some more playing time - and they are. But even if it's not the greatest opportunity, LaPorta has played his way into a spot where he has to produce in a limited opportunity in order for anyone to have any faith in giving him more and bigger opportunities in the first place. Hitting mistake pitches out of a hitter-friendly park in AAA is not enough to earn those future opportunities.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:22 pm

I just don't see LaPorta as part f the future unless he gives good reason this month, it's easy to guess he's gone.

Hopefully a cpl trades take place and this club has much better options going into next yr.

I'm trying to think of some guys who could be available bc they were not offered arb. can anyone throw out a few names of guys that likely won't be offered arb. and become FA.
I'll throw a few names out who the Tribe could have interest in that are returning from injury...Scott Baker, Carl Pavano and Mike Pelphery---who likely is not offered arb.
I think the Tribe needs to think outside the box, take a few chances on some FA, throw out a cpl heavily incentive laced deals to some guys returning from injury and blow up the big club.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:21 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I just don't see LaPorta as part f the future unless he gives good reason this month, it's easy to guess he's gone.

Hopefully a cpl trades take place and this club has much better options going into next yr.

I'm trying to think of some guys who could be available bc they were not offered arb. can anyone throw out a few names of guys that likely won't be offered arb. and become FA.
I'll throw a few names out who the Tribe could have interest in that are returning from injury...Scott Baker, Carl Pavano and Mike Pelphery---who likely is not offered arb.
I think the Tribe needs to think outside the box, take a few chances on some FA, throw out a cpl heavily incentive laced deals to some guys returning from injury and blow up the big club.


It's pretty early in the game to be considering potential non-tender candidates, but MLB Trade Rumors has this to offer: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/e ... dates.html Not that anyone on this list is really worthy of consideration..

As far as LaPorta goes.. another game.. another spectator role.. but Casey Kotchman played, got an 0-fer and didn't exactly distinguish himself with the leather.. This goes well with his 6 for 31 (0.194 BA) over his last ten games.. but he's a better choice than.. right..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:19 am

Matt LaPorta - give me a break. He's 27 years old, the age when most hitters are at their peak. This year he hit .246/.689 on the road in AAA. Take away his numbers in the hitter-friendly ballpark in Columbus and that's what he is - a .246 hitter in AAA.

In his major league career he's hitting .235/.692 in nearly 1,000 at-bats. That sucks for a shortstop and is beyond suck for a first baseman. Whether he's better than Kotchman is irrelevant. The Indians will never contend with this guy in the lineup at a key offensive position. Face it, he's the first base version of Andy Marte.

Seeing as how the Tribe has nobody in the system who will be ready to play first base at a major league level next year, I think their best option is to put Santana there. Let Marson catch every day. Not the ideal scenario since Marson can't hit right-handed pitching and Santana's bat is marginal for a first baseman, but that's all we have. The only other option is to acquire a legitimate ML first baseman through a trade involving Choo or Chris Perez or Asdrubal.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:20 am

Prosecutor wrote:Matt LaPorta - give me a break. He's 27 years old, the age when most hitters are at their peak. This year he hit .246/.689 on the road in AAA. Take away his numbers in the hitter-friendly ballpark in Columbus and that's what he is - a .246 hitter in AAA.

In his major league career he's hitting .235/.692 in nearly 1,000 at-bats. That sucks for a shortstop and is beyond suck for a first baseman. Whether he's better than Kotchman is irrelevant. The Indians will never contend with this guy in the lineup at a key offensive position. Face it, he's the first base version of Andy Marte.

Seeing as how the Tribe has nobody in the system who will be ready to play first base at a major league level next year, I think their best option is to put Santana there. Let Marson catch every day. Not the ideal scenario since Marson can't hit right-handed pitching and Santana's bat is marginal for a first baseman, but that's all we have. The only other option is to acquire a legitimate ML first baseman through a trade involving Choo or Chris Perez or Asdrubal.


FWIW..while it may still be irrelevant, .235/.692 is still better than .228/.632. The situation is: The Indians are giving a 7 year veteran playing time, knowing that the best they can hope for is that he doesn't hit into a double play.. BENCH is where he belongs.. As for LaPorta, what do the Indians have to lose by playing him?..

... unless he gives good reason this month...
When he was "promoted" this season, Manny Acta was quoted that Matt would be given regular at bats.. The "good reason" is now '12 games and 15 at bats'.. there is NOTHING regular about this.. It's clear, Matt LaPorta must have gone into Chris Antonetti's office and peed on his rug to earn this amount of playing time.. and yes.. he'll probably be gone..

Just a quick note.. the Indians had another kid who had the same kind of pedigree w/r to minor league numbers and prospect status.. he was traded after getting a shade over 400 AB's with the Indians. The last two years.. he was given 31 at bats at the major league level over 12 games.. His "plus years" are still ongoing in the ML's.. in Cincinnati....
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:10 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Matt LaPorta - give me a break. He's 27 years old, the age when most hitters are at their peak. This year he hit .246/.689 on the road in AAA. Take away his numbers in the hitter-friendly ballpark in Columbus and that's what he is - a .246 hitter in AAA.

In his major league career he's hitting .235/.692 in nearly 1,000 at-bats. That sucks for a shortstop and is beyond suck for a first baseman. Whether he's better than Kotchman is irrelevant. The Indians will never contend with this guy in the lineup at a key offensive position. Face it, he's the first base version of Andy Marte.

Seeing as how the Tribe has nobody in the system who will be ready to play first base at a major league level next year, I think their best option is to put Santana there. Let Marson catch every day. Not the ideal scenario since Marson can't hit right-handed pitching and Santana's bat is marginal for a first baseman, but that's all we have. The only other option is to acquire a legitimate ML first baseman through a trade involving Choo or Chris Perez or Asdrubal.


FWIW..while it may still be irrelevant, .235/.692 is still better than .228/.632. The situation is: The Indians are giving a 7 year veteran playing time, knowing that the best they can hope for is that he doesn't hit into a double play.. BENCH is where he belongs.. As for LaPorta, what do the Indians have to lose by playing him?..

Nothing to lose and nothing to gain by playing either LaPorta or Kotchman over the next 20 games. Next year they're both gone.

... unless he gives good reason this month...
When he was "promoted" this season, Manny Acta was quoted that Matt would be given regular at bats.. The "good reason" is now '12 games and 15 at bats'.. there is NOTHING regular about this.. It's clear, Matt LaPorta must have gone into Chris Antonetti's office and peed on his rug to earn this amount of playing time.. and yes.. he'll probably be gone..

Just a quick note.. the Indians had another kid who had the same kind of pedigree w/r to minor league numbers and prospect status.. he was traded after getting a shade over 400 AB's with the Indians. The last two years.. he was given 31 at bats at the major league level over 12 games.. His "plus years" are still ongoing in the ML's.. in Cincinnati....

And if LaPorta was 22 years old with only 400 AB's I wouldn't trade him either. But he's no Brandon Phillips - he's 27. He's not going to get any better. He's Andy Marte, not Brandon Phillips.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:12 am

I think you're right LaPorta, Anderson whoever should get the at bats, even Neal and Phelps what's the point of calling these guys up and sitting them.
My point was LaPorta should get the time, but would have to prove he's worth keeping. We know what Kotchman is, let the younger guys take the at bats. Apparently, the FO has already made up their minds. Just saying it appears that way.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:24 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I think you're right LaPorta, Anderson whoever should get the at bats, even Neal and Phelps what's the point of calling these guys up and sitting them.
My point was LaPorta should get the time, but would have to prove he's worth keeping. We know what Kotchman is, let the younger guys take the at bats. Apparently, the FO has already made up their minds. Just saying it appears that way.


Why are they not playing these guys? Possibly everyone involved CA, MS, and Manny are all still hoping they can keep their jobs. You can add Canzler to your list also. Not defending the practice (I am not) just maybe shedding some light on what the decision makers may be thinking.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:17 pm

I think you're right there, hoping a strong finish will save their jobs, but you can't do the same thing over and over and expect different results: that is the definition of insanity.

I could see Canzler as the Shelley Duncan on the roster next yr. but it really come down to what goes down this offseason.
This will be a huge offseason the Tribe / Dolan has to get it right or it could be yrs before the Tribe has real potential to win. I honestly think its time to clean house, keeping only a select few (grant, alomar, neibla?).
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby timdav » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:15 pm

Could it be the Dolans aren't necessarily cheap, just very hesitant to make a big splash and "overspend" due to the shaky economic conditions here in the midwest? Are they simply afraid to gamble?

However, I agree with all of you: they may not have a choice now. Things are so bad with the fanbase, media, and poor condition of the upper 2&1/2 levels of their minor league system...they may feel heavy pressure to make big, expensive moves.

To not do so further erodes the value of their franchise...wouldn't you guys think?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:24 pm

timdav wrote:Could it be the Dolans aren't necessarily cheap, just very hesitant to make a big splash and "overspend" due to the shaky economic conditions here in the midwest? Are they simply afraid to gamble?

However, I agree with all of you: they may not have a choice now. Things are so bad with the fanbase, media, and poor condition of the upper 2&1/2 levels of their minor league system...they may feel heavy pressure to make big, expensive moves.

To not do so further erodes the value of their franchise...wouldn't you guys think?


Never thought the Dolans were cheap but that they worked under a budget. They did go over budget in 2008 to compete (alledgedly) but then they had the usual Wedge April tank. By mid-season they were out of it and losing $ heavily. That necessitated the sale of V-Mart and C.Lee. That shows that the Dolans will spend over when they feel they will compete but I think the FO is hesitent to sign anyone to what they view as "too long term" (bitten by the Hafner deal) and thus didn't sign Willingham for 3 years (would not budge off of 2 years). IMO, a FO cannot deal from the fear standpoint which I think they currently do. I think the Dolans have a lot of trust in Shapiro and want to let him run it his way...they just sit back and watch. Note that baseball people have been telling LD that MS is a smart baseball guy (not my opinion but those of baseball execs).
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:30 pm

Tell ya what, CP hasn't held anything back this year and man... did he just bomb the FO and management. He basically said what we already know though.. glad someone finally said it.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Pretty clear to me that Perez wants out.

Nothing he has said is false..... but to call out your employer publicly is a big no-no and is paving his way out of the door.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Ya Kojack been telling you that for months, but your ego got in the way of your ears.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:43 pm

ironmike wrote:Ya Kojack been telling you that for months, but your ego got in the way of your ears.


A ban may be in your near future if you keep the attacks coming. If that's what you want, by all means, keep trying your luck.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:48 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
ironmike wrote:Ya Kojack been telling you that for months, but your ego got in the way of your ears.


A ban may be in your near future if you keep the attacks coming. If that's what you want, by all means, keep trying your luck.


Do we even know who the hell he was referring to with the "Kojack" remarks?

Hell, everyone should just do what I did a long time ago..... stick him on your ignore list..... makes reading threads much easier.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:05 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
ironmike wrote:Ya Kojack been telling you that for months, but your ego got in the way of your ears.


A ban may be in your near future if you keep the attacks coming. If that's what you want, by all means, keep trying your luck.


Do we even know who the hell he was referring to with the "Kojack" remarks?

Hell, everyone should just do what I did a long time ago..... stick him on your ignore list..... makes reading threads much easier.

Well, I may be one of the few but I enjoy "ironmike's" posts. Now he doesn't heckle me the way he does some & I get that it would get annoying & that personal attacks are off limits. I do like the fact that this board has tons of varying opinions & I like the exposure to differents "frames of mind". It could be worse. That "batting order" dude from the PD site could be regaling & re-regaling us with his constructs daily. Not a pretty prospect (see how I skillfully managed to bring "prospects" into the post?).
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:25 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Tell ya what, CP hasn't held anything back this year and man... did he just bomb the FO and management. He basically said what we already know though.. glad someone finally said it.


+ 1 on the Perez rant.. The voice of the team.. the voice of the fans.. the leadership void is clearly being filled.. NOW the Indians FO needs to:

1. NOT sweep it under the rug..

2. NOT allow the scabs and blood suckers to couch CP's comments as some kind of attack.. but a clear and concise show of what the fans and the players truly want.. a winning attitude, a winning team and the support of the ownership and front office..

Couching his comments as a SLAP against the ownership/management/etc. will only fuel the idiots into the "fire the manager refrains" and "sell the team refrains.." and, to the greatest extent.. tear the intent of CP's comments asunder.. don't allow it
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:36 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
ironmike wrote:Ya Kojack been telling you that for months, but your ego got in the way of your ears.


A ban may be in your near future if your keep the attacks coming. If that's what you want, by all means, keep trying your luck.


Do we even know who the hell he was referring to with the "Kojack" remarks?

Hell, everyone should just do what I did a long time ago..... stick him on your ignore list..... makes reading threads much easier.


Good advise and a great reminder regarding the ignore list.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:15 am

I like Perez, while I haven't agreed with everything he's ranted about but i do this time. I respect the fact that he's a straight shooter there's never any question where he stands. Unfortunately, I am mildly concerned this may hurt his value...but I don't think it will. It may however, affect teams that would willingly embrace his persona.
I don't think the Tribe can just sweep Perez's comments under the rug...they have to be addressed. The Tribe / Dolan, Shapiro, and CA should man up acknowledge what Perez said is true and move on. Is it wrong for Perez to point out what he did. Yes, in the sense he should respect the positions above him, No in that he is holding those responsible accountable. Perez said what the common fan thinks and it needed to be voiced.
I am concerned the FO will look to move Perez eagerly and willingly dump him for less than true value. With that said Closers at times do not bring the value they could / in some cases they should. The positives about moving Perez in the future is that Pestano and Allen both appear to be ready to take on a much larger role going forward. The Tribe has some talented arms in the pen coming up and others returning to form. Perez is controllable for 2 more yrs, is a solid AllStar Closer and has had a very good yr, while pitching some of his best baseball. His actions / antics haven't seemed to affect his mound presence.

Chris Perez a yr in review:
Twitter comments re: KC.
"You can't see me"...gesture to Dyson, that was great---got to love his competitive 'punk' nature.
Tribe fans should support the team (x2).
An AllStar selection.
Incident with an A's (?) fan.
The birth of his daughter.
Calls out Dolan, Shapiro and Antonetti. I will also point out he hasn't thrown Acta under the bus, which tells me he still respects him FWTW.
and Perez considers all of that "all in a days work". At least he's kept a boring team, entertaining.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby timdav » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:28 pm

If, as reported, the Indians made 20, 30, or even 40 million dollars a year in profit these past few years...will the Dolans be truly motivated to make big changes to improve the on-field performance of the entire organization?

Could it be as long as they are making money that's all that really matters, and they don't have that much passion to build an organization who's goal is win it all?

Could it be the Dolans fear the current state of the economy has the Tribe owners really hesitant to make big moves to go for it?

We don't really know why they are following the path they are on because they won't come out in public and level with the general public and media.

As fans, we don't really know. We can only judge their actions, right?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:44 pm

you would think that any owner that buys a sports franchise would have a competitive backbone.....I question the 20-40 million in profit though....unfortunately I think MS has more of LD's confidence than LD's eyes and ears do (he has to see the pathetic product on the field and hear the fans/players complaining about it)....so in conclussion, i'm not going to hold my breath for a change despite my feeling that one has to be made in the FO...changes of Nunally and Radinsky won't be satisfying
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:46 pm

timdav wrote:If, as reported, the Indians made 20, 30, or even 40 million dollars a year in profit these past few years...will the Dolans be truly motivated to make big changes to improve the on-field performance of the entire organization?

Could it be as long as they are making money, they really don't have that much passion to win it all?

As fans, we don't really know. We can only judge their actions, right?


Tim... One of the benefits of being a privately held corporation is the ability to keep the 'books' from the prying eyes of outsiders. The numbers you've noted seem to be a bit high, however, not to an outrageous level. If I were to hazard a guess, the Indians are generating approximately 4-12 MM in profits before taxes.. In short, Mr Dolan is making some money, but not anywhere near those levels..

It will be interesting to see what, if any, response is given to the Chris Perez comments by the ownership group.. As of this writing, I haven't heard boo-squat..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:02 pm

timdav wrote:If, as reported, the Indians made 20, 30, or even 40 million dollars a year in profit these past few years...will the Dolans be truly motivated to make big changes to improve the on-field performance of the entire organization?


They probably made a tidy sum last year, as the payroll was super low and they didn't expect to be contending/drawing. They did contend last year, and there was a decent uptick in ticket sales as a result. I would expect that they probably did not make much of anything this year, and it's entirely possible that they lost money. Shapiro's on record as saying they were budgeted to lose a little bit of money unless ticket sales saw a significant gain, and sales instead did the exact opposite. And without doing any deadline deals, they haven't dumped any salary via trade, so it's not like that's going to be possibly putting them into profitability like it might have in 2009. It seems highly likely to me that this team didn't make money or lost money this year.

I don't get why people want to insist that the Indians could clearly spend more. There are actual cheap teams out there - Marlins (before this year), Pirates, Royals - who almost never creep above $60M, but the Indians have done that quite a few times. Why is it so hard to believe that a team that makes $120M less in cable revenue than the teams in the LA, NY and Boston markets has to keep it's payroll significantly lower?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:35 pm

Edible14 wrote:
timdav wrote:If, as reported, the Indians made 20, 30, or even 40 million dollars a year in profit these past few years...will the Dolans be truly motivated to make big changes to improve the on-field performance of the entire organization?


They probably made a tidy sum last year, as the payroll was super low and they didn't expect to be contending/drawing. They did contend last year, and there was a decent uptick in ticket sales as a result. I would expect that they probably did not make much of anything this year, and it's entirely possible that they lost money. Shapiro's on record as saying they were budgeted to lose a little bit of money unless ticket sales saw a significant gain, and sales instead did the exact opposite. And without doing any deadline deals, they haven't dumped any salary via trade, so it's not like that's going to be possibly putting them into profitability like it might have in 2009. It seems highly likely to me that this team didn't make money or lost money this year.

I don't get why people want to insist that the Indians could clearly spend more. There are actual cheap teams out there - Marlins (before this year), Pirates, Royals - who almost never creep above $60M, but the Indians have done that quite a few times. Why is it so hard to believe that a team that makes $120M less in cable revenue than the teams in the LA, NY and Boston markets has to keep it's payroll significantly lower?

Have heard the "Dolan is cheap" mantra quite a bit & your post would seem to at least partially negate that claim. I prefer the "Antonetti is spending the available money stupidly" group.

Kotchman: $3 million, Damon: $1.25 million, Grady: $5 million. I won't include Lowe because the amount we actually paid him doesn't buy you much in the way of pitching. He gave Kluber time to develop, which may be needed/pay dividends next year.

You can't waste @ $8 million above what you would spend on internal replacements promising the same production on one hand and then claim that the extra 1 yr/$7 million for the 3rd year on Willingham was prohibitively expensive. Stupid, arbitrary policy on contract length. Possibly a GM without the nuts to convince the owner of the advantage of bending his rule for well chosen exceptions. Penny-wise and Pound-foolish.
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