MLB trade deadline

[Edible14]

Gave up two Cy Young Award winners and got zilch back.

I know this is the commonly believed viewpoint, but this is false.

First off, Michael Brantley is not nothing. Marson may be more than just an average backup. Carrasco, when he gets healthy, could be the best part of any of those trades. This is not to say we got equal value back, but that never would have happened anyway. Trades for aces rarely get back huge, blockbuster packages that produce multiple impact big leaguers. The one exception was the Colon trade, but that was under once-in-a-lifetime circumstances (the Expos were about to move or fold, the GM knew he was gone soon, making one last playoff push). It's been pointed out - look at the returns the OTHER Lee trades netted, or what the Halladay trade netted. The big prize in any of those trades was Smoak, and he's been AWFUL this year to the point where John Jaso and Miguel Olivo have been hitting above him in Seattle's lineup. You can look at the trades for Randy Johnson or Curt Schilling and find the exact same pattern.

[daingean]

...If you are going to use a model, I'd prefer the Tampa draft philosophy of drafting tools and developing them....

+1

The Rays do have a bias toward HS kids with huge upside and risk.. In past few drafts.. the Rays have:

2012: 5 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..
2011: 5 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..
2010: 4 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..
2009: 5 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..

Many of these draftees have yet to show they are ML'ers. In fact, excluding the 2012 & 2011 drafts (too soon to tell) & going back to the 2006 draft, the Rays have three players (David Price, Evan Longoria and Alex Cobb) that they drafted in their first six picks that are ML'ers. This proves the fact that even the teams that draft in the upper levels of the Rule IV draft and have allegedly knowledgeable scouts don't necessarily do well. It's a crap shoot at worst..

I just think overall the Tampa philosophy of drafting "tools" (which is how Mike Hart describes their philosophy) is better than the "MoneyBall" philosophy (which I think has plagued the Indians in the 2000-2010 decade). You are going to miss on a lot of HS kids because even scouting cannot measure how someone will progress. The problem with "MoneyBall" is that most of the guys they draft are pretty close to their ceiling and thus you won't see too many M-Rams or Thome's or CC's in those drafts.

As far as the trades are concerned, the door is closed on Shapiro as a GM. I think he had better trades but his 2 high profile ones were stinkers (one C.Lee deal was because the industry hadn't bought in on Lee like they did on CC and because the prized piece was injured and they didn't demand a physical first - what we were told by Philly was that it was a bicep tendonitis and not a shoulder which it turned out to be).

And yes, the B.Grant drafts are still just propaganda right now. They will be until some of the guys start graduating to the majors. I have a lot of optimism wrt some of those recent drafts because I like the change in draft philosophy. We will have to wait and see how that turns out.

Finally, I like what Acta has done as manager. He's kept us in the race (with probably inferior talent) and I hope he is not a casualty of an anticipated management shake-up.

[GeronimoSon]

Gave up two Cy Young Award winners and got zilch back.

I know this is the commonly believed viewpoint, but this is false.

First off, Michael Brantley is not nothing. Marson may be more than just an average backup. Carrasco, when he gets healthy, could be the best part of any of those trades. This is not to say we got equal value back, but that never would have happened anyway. Trades for aces rarely get back huge, blockbuster packages that produce multiple impact big leaguers. The one exception was the Colon trade, but that was under once-in-a-lifetime circumstances (the Expos were about to move or fold, the GM knew he was gone soon, making one last playoff push). It's been pointed out - look at the returns the OTHER Lee trades netted, or what the Halladay trade netted. The big prize in any of those trades was Smoak, and he's been AWFUL this year to the point where John Jaso and Miguel Olivo have been hitting above him in Seattle's lineup. You can look at the trades for Randy Johnson or Curt Schilling and find the exact same pattern.

Two plus months of CC was what the Brewers got for the quartet sent to the Indians for CC.. The Indians would have gotten a draft pick if they hadn't traded CC (only Garrett Richards and Tanner Sheppers have made it to the ML's from the Comp A round). The Brewers used the draft pick they received from CC signing with the Yankees on Kentrail Davis.. WHO?..

The Cliff Lee situation was a bit more of a "sticky wicket".. He had 1 1/2 years remaining on a team friendly contract, but, through his agent, had made it perfectly clear, he wasn't going to resign. The "haul" of two SP's (carrasco & knapp), marson and donald looked pretty good until knapp's shoulder collapsed & carrasco's elbow required TJ surgery. The Phillies subsequently did the exact same thing with Lee that the Indians did in the off season...

Oh.. and no one is scoring 850 runs this year.. not one single team..

[daingean]

[quote="GeronimoSon"]
Two plus months of CC was what the Brewers got for the quartet sent to the Indians for CC.. The Indians would have gotten a draft pick if they hadn't traded CC (only Garrett Richards and Tanner Sheppers have made it to the ML's from the Comp A round). The Brewers used the draft pick they received from CC signing with the Yankees on Kentrail Davis.. WHO?..

quote]

What really sucked for the Brewers was they didn't get a 1st rounder for losing CC. The Angels got the Yankee's 1st rounder that year for signing Texiera.

But the Brewers did make the play-offs for the first time in years.

[ironmike]

Edible14, we did get Brantley, a dam good baseball player. When we trade Cy Young winners we need to get back really good young pitching that can eventually make an impact. We did not, that is why I said, zilch.

Bryson still struggles, Carrasco, hurt, may contribute but he's no Roy Holliday. Knapp blew out his shoulder. Some LH journeyman pitcher who now works at Love Travel near Geronimo's house.

We got zilch back as far as trying to replace two impact pitchers.

Bad deals.

[Hermie13]

Two plus months of CC was what the Brewers got for the quartet sent to the Indians for CC.. The Indians would have gotten a draft pick if they hadn't traded CC (only Garrett Richards and Tanner Sheppers have made it to the ML's from the Comp A round). The Brewers used the draft pick they received from CC signing with the Yankees on Kentrail Davis.. WHO?..

quote]

What really sucked for the Brewers was they didn't get a 1st rounder for losing CC. The Angels got the Yankee's 1st rounder that year for signing Texiera.

But the Brewers did make the play-offs for the first time in years.

What really, really sucked for the Brewers was that not only did they not get the Yanks 1st round pick but they go zero picks for Ben Sheets who ended up not signing with anyone due to injury. So instead of 4 first/supp picks they ended up with 1 supp pick and a 2nd for their 2 Aces...

[Edible14]

Edible14, we did get Brantley, a dam good baseball player. When we trade Cy Young winners we need to get back really good young pitching that can eventually make an impact. We did not, that is why I said, zilch.

Bryson still struggles, Carrasco, hurt, may contribute but he's no Roy Holliday. Knapp blew out his shoulder. Some LH journeyman pitcher who now works at Love Travel near Geronimo's house.

We got zilch back as far as trying to replace two impact pitchers.

Bad deals.

The point is that you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of getting your definition of "impact players" back in trades of ace pitchers, aside from the Colon trade. You just don't get potential aces in trades anymore, as clubs have learned to value high-upside pitching prospects more than ever before. Take a look at the aces around the league, and you'll see that they all came up with the same team that drafted them. Cain, Halladay, Sabathia, Verlander, Felix, Strasburg, Kershaw, Cueto, Sale... none of these players were ever even considered tradeable when they were coming up. It has been reported a bunch of times that the Red Sox told the Indians "no" on Bucholz for Lee straight up... because they thought he'd be an ace pitcher. That's also why it was such a shock to see the Indians trade as much as they did for Ubaldo.

[OhioBaseball]

I can't remember the last time I was any more pessimistic about this organization than I am now.

This farm system is terrible. There are some teenagers to be excited about, but we've been saying that for the past few years now. I don't want to hear about Lindor and Paulino -- those guys are ages away from helping.

Can someone explain to me how the Cleveland Indians can be a competitive team without a productive farm system? The moment the Indians become dependent upon free agency is the same moment when they need to realize they are screwed.

I like Chisenhall and Kipnis, but the Indians need to produce AT LEAST one of those types EVERY single year to keep up. I don't see anyone of that pedigree coming from this system in the next three years. That is terrible.

[daingean]

I can't remember the last time I was any more pessimistic about this organization than I am now.

This farm system is terrible. There are some teenagers to be excited about, but we've been saying that for the past few years now. I don't want to hear about Lindor and Paulino -- those guys are ages away from helping.

Can someone explain to me how the Cleveland Indians can be a competitive team without a productive farm system? The moment the Indians become dependent upon free agency is the same moment when they need to realize they are screwed.

I like Chisenhall and Kipnis, but the Indians need to produce AT LEAST one of those types EVERY single year to keep up. I don't see anyone of that pedigree coming from this system in the next three years. That is terrible.

I understand where you are coming from. Note that in the last few years the Indians have graduated Santana, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Pestano, Carasco and now Allen to the majors. All of these guys are important cogs on the team. The 2 glaring weaknesses we have are 1B and LF (as well as RH bat). The only guys on the horizon now are Hagadone, Adams, and some other guys (unless someone really steps forward in a big way). We have a few guys that could step up but for the most part our weaknesses won't be filled from within. I don't think we are that far away from competing here in the AL Central though. But the final pieces look to be filled from outside the organizaion (add DH if Hafner is gone).

[ironmike]

Ohio Baseball, you nailed it with your post, absolutely nailed it, yet most here won't agree. They celebrate draft choices and fail to realize it is all about results for the ML team, meaning wins, attendance, advertisers and partner / sponsors. All Indians should be very concerned, don't see them recovering from all of this. Either the team gets a new local owner or they might even be disengrated by MLB if they decide to cut teams.

Regarding Chisenhall, I've yet to see a good ML hitter who does not walk. If Chisenhall doesn't improve in this critical area he will falter too.

[homerawayfromhome]

I can't help but think back to this past offseason and to this point I had not been in on firing CA, but the more I look at the holes in this team, it all falls on him. I'd start with Shapiro and then CA. I'd keep Manny Acta and Niebla, but fire Fields.

No one can fault CA for the Carmona debacle, then again he acknowledged he heard rumors. Just about any knucklehead knows where there is smoke there is fire. Resigning Sizemore... Sizemore Indians career had came and gone. That was $5 million the Tribe could have spent else where like on Cuddyer, Willingham, Doumit.

Shall I even mention Jimenez? For a while I thought I'd eat my words on him, still hope I but I'm not seeing it. If the Tribe is serious about contending, then when? Really, can this group contend next yr? I think not, unless there are some serious changes and several upgrades, but with not to little cash to spend the Tribe must hit on every single move or risk missing a 'window of contention' I'm not sure was / is ever opened with this roster makeup.

I completely get the Tribe is limited in FA, but what about looking more heavily into some of these guys coming in from the Pacific... Like Iwakuma for Seattle, maybe it was a left coast thing there I'm not sure or the Brewers Norichika Aoki. My point is these could have been creative adds at a reasonable price... It would seemingly make sense to take a chance on these type players rather than retreads, injury plagued former stars, and never has beens.

[Hermie13]

Regarding Chisenhall, I've yet to see a good ML hitter who does not walk. If Chisenhall doesn't improve in this critical area he will falter too.

Don't think anyone argues aginst the fact that Chiz needs to work on his plate discipline, but there are some very good ML hitters that don't walk. Carlos Bearga's career walk rate was under 5%. In 1994 he posted a mere 2.1% walk rate while posting the 2nd highest wOBA of his career (.366). I'd call Adam Jones a good ML hitter, his career walk rate is also under 5% and even this year is only at 4.5%. Starlin Castro is another young hitter with a lackluster walk rate (just got a big extenstion too).

Sure, Chiz's walk rate is at 3% now. Also has less than 300 career plate appearances. His minor league numbers suggest he should be able to much better and even if he only settles in around 5% he can be a good ML hitter. Been plenty of guys like him that succeed as hitters in baseball.

Again, you obviously want him to be at a much higher walk rate. And who knows, perhaps he simply won't be able too ever walk anymore than he has to this point (I highly doubt it but possible). But the kid is basically 2 years younger than Kipnis. Way too soon to discount him IMO. He was also called up way too soon due to team need, which I think has hurt his development some.

[ironmike]

Hermie, your examples resonate, but not walking is far from the norm. Hermie a hitter either walks, gets a hit or makes an out. Do you really believe we can have guys who function at 66% of capacity of most ML hitters? Isn't that the kind of thinking that put this team behind the 8 ball?

Baseball is about getting on base, hitters who can work the count have leverage in getting eventually a pitch they can drive. Get on base and you have a chance to score runs. Give us a player who can score 100 runs and we have an exceptional ML hitter. The goods ones do it all, including taking BB's. Chisenhall at the moment doesn't have this ability. Does the worst offense in baseball get better on "if comes"?

A real savvy baseball GM moves this guy in a trade or they find the right hitting coach to have guys like Chisenhall, Santana and other improve their flaws.

[Hermie13]

Chisenhall at the moment doesn't have this ability. Does the worst offense in baseball get better on "if comes"?

A real savvy baseball GM moves this guy in a trade or they find the right hitting coach to have guys like Chisenhall, Santana and other improve their flaws.

Chisenhall plays for the Indians, not the Astros....or A's, or Mariners or the other teams with worse offenses than Cleveland.

All this Chiz sucks and a good GM would trade him talk reminds me of Brandon Phillips. Had just as bad of issues with walking/getting on base when he was first up as Chiz. To this day he's never walked 50 times in a season despite being a guy that hits near the top of the lineup. Plate discipline can be one of the toughest things for a young kid and takes time.

You seem to think Chiz can't get better....that's fine, entitled to opinions. I disagree with that. I agree right now Chiz does not have the ability to be a good ML hitter....neither did Phillips in 2003.

[Edible14]

I come back to the idea that maybe contending in 2011 hurt this team long-term, and distracted them from doing what they needed to be doing. I think it's unlikely that Chisenhall would have been called up last year if the team wasn't in the middle of a postseason push, and perhaps he wouldn't have had such setbacks. And... it would have had the added benefit of not starting his arby clock, keeping him in playing time (as opposed to sitting on the bench in Cleveland, which he did a lot last year), and it certainly would have made the Indians' farm system look a little less barren.

[ironmike]

Hey Hermie, another offensive explosion.

Do you think the fans, advertisers and sponsors are going to wait for Chisenhall? Any player who has playing his whole life who can't draw a walk on a consistent basis more than likely won't change. By the way, Chisenhall could not carry Brandon Phillips jock strap, no comparision in talent level, nadda, none. You are dreaming or looking at stats again. The difference in athleticism between the two is not even close.

This team you defend Hermie is filled with Frank Duffy's and Tom Veryzer's as position players. If you don't know or care who those players were, you should because they will provide a hint at the barometer of just how bad this team really is.

History has shown the average Indians owners stays around 10-12 years. The Dolan's won't attract any minority investors because who wants to jump on a fast sinking ship? The sharks are beginning to gather and that is all good for real Indian fans who deserve so much more. Look for this team to go up for sale soon, the present owners will relent because they do not have the resources to withstand apathy and red ink.

Not negative, just reality. The Cleveland Indians are a business and when businesses crumble from the foundation they usually can't be turned around. Best thing that could happen is if this team is sold to the right owner who in turn knows how to hire good baseball people. Then you are looking at 3-4 years until you can get in the playoffs for a new group to completely rebuild.

Haven't seen it so bad since the Indians ownership threatened to play a portion of their home schedule in the Louisianna Superdome.

[Hermie13]

Hey Hermie, another offensive explosion.

Do you think the fans, advertisers and sponsors are going to wait for Chisenhall? Any player who has playing his whole life who can't draw a walk on a consistent basis more than likely won't change. By the way, Chisenhall could not carry Brandon Phillips jock strap, no comparision in talent level, nadda, none. You are dreaming or looking at stats again. The difference in athleticism between the two is not even close.

Obviously you won't win any games scoring 0 runs....but giving up 7 runs to a terrible A's offense is just as bad. You won't win many gaves giving up 7 runs...or are you now going to suggest the Indians should average 7.5 runs a game to win?

Wasn't comparing Chiz and Phillips athletism. Phillips was the better athletic, but Chiz is no bum. Not sure what athletism has to do with drawing walks though. I don't know many people that would agree with your talent "assessment". Both were top 30 prospects in all of baseball. Phillips has had some good years in Cincy but is far from a superstar. Chiz doesn't project as a superstar either, but a solid starter/All-Star caliber player. Think many would agree Phillips was the better talent, but the difference wasn't as great as you're making it out to be.

And again, Chiz actually HAS drawn walks throughout his pro career. Simply struggled since getting called up to the bigs. From 2008 to 2011 his minor league walk rates were: 7.9%, 8.6%, 6.9%, 8.8% and 9.6%. The kid has shown he can walk and has been pretty consistent in his ability to. Yes, minor leagues vs the big leagues is a completely different animal, but agian, kid has less than 300 plate appearances in the bigs. You're acting like he has always been terrible at drawing walks, which is simply untrue. He's only struggled there since being called up way too soon last year.

Case you're wondering Phillips walk rates from 2000 to 2005 in the minors were: 7.2%, 5.7%, 7.6%, 7.0%, 7.5%, 7.5%. Was really walking less than Chiz....crazy that it took a young kid a while to get things going at the big league level. Again, not saying Chiz will become as good as Phillips (though I think he could be better); I'm not. Chiz could easily be a utility guy at best....but he's young and HAS shown the ability to walk most of his life/career (guess I don't know how he was at drawing walks in high school but I'm guessing he was good at it).

[Hermie13]

I come back to the idea that maybe contending in 2011 hurt this team long-term, and distracted them from doing what they needed to be doing. I think it's unlikely that Chisenhall would have been called up last year if the team wasn't in the middle of a postseason push, and perhaps he wouldn't have had such setbacks. And... it would have had the added benefit of not starting his arby clock, keeping him in playing time (as opposed to sitting on the bench in Cleveland, which he did a lot last year), and it certainly would have made the Indians' farm system look a little less barren.

I agree somewhat here. Think the start to 2011 really surprised the Tribe and put them in a place they didn't expect to be. I could understand going after a relatively young pitcher like Ubaldo though who was cost controlled/signed for a few years. Obviously has backfired big time though. Tribe system would probably look somewhat as barren though as one (or both) of White/Pom would be in the bigs now and White was technically not a prospect even heading into this season. Agree though that it would give you more hope for the long-term future...

Agree completely on Chiz, though the Tribe may have called him up too soon regardless. They have a knack for doing that. Phillips, Marte, LaPorta, Donald, Chiz. Tribe waited on Kipnis though so most likely they would have on Chiz, which really would have been for the best...

[ironmike]

Hermie, you're goofy. No number you could come up with would justify Chisenhall being compared to Brandon Phillips.
None.

[Rocky55]

Brandon Phillips age 22 season in Cleveland:

112 Games, 370 AB, 36 Runs, 77 Hits, 18 Doubles, 1 Triple, 6 HR, 33 RBI, 4 SB, 5 CS, 14 BB, 77 K's, .208 BA, .242 OB, .311 SLG, .533 OPS, 48 OPS+.

Lonnie Chisenhall age 22 season in Cleveland:

66 Games, 212 AB, 27 Runs, 54 Hits, 13 Doubles, 0 Triples, 7 HR, 22 RBI, 1 SB, 0 CS, 8 BB, 49 K's, .255 BA, .284 OB, .415 SLG, .699 OPS, 94 OPS+.

Of course at age 23 Phillips spent only 6 games in Cleveland with 4 Hits, a .162 BA, a .523 OPS & a 40 OPS+.

Chisenhall pre-injury spent 24 games with 20 Hits, a .278 BA, a .756 OPS, & a 110 OPS+. Chiz was just starting to roll too, when he got injured.

It's worth mentioning that Phillips has only once in his career bettered Chiz' 110 OPS+ from this year.

Chiz has always been considered a prime hitting prospect with a great swing. I feel pretty confident that given health his offensive contributions will dwarf what Phillips has done with the bat. Phillips is more valuable on the bases and defensively but with normal development Chiz should be the superior hitter. Lets not also forget that Phillips first full season in MLB didnt occur until he was 25.

The upshot is that you're right Sal, you can't compare Phillips with Chiz to this point in their careers because Chiz kicks Phillips' ass.

[ironmike]

Rocky, Phillips is an All-Star, no guarantee Chisenhall ever reaches that level. By the way, Phillips, just another huge talent evaluation mistake we never recovered from compliments of Shapiro and Wedge.

I'm sure if you asked the right scouts, Phillips was a far superior prospect at that age than Chisenhall is currently. Can't go by numbers, if you did, Phillips would have been out of baseball based on his lack of production with Indians. Good example of the problems with the Cleveland Indians to much emphasis put on numbers.

Know why?

The organization people we currenlty have making decisions, it is the only way they know how to judge talent. More to judging talent than numbers. Just ask Kenny Williams and Dave Dombrowski in our division, they privately say Shapiro is inept. So did Billy Beane. If you go back to my Sal days then you probably remember me posting a guy like Billy Martin would have put his arm around Phillips and got the talent out of him. Those were real baseball guys, who learned from experience from coming up through the sandlots and playing the game. The real reason John Hart, Charlie, Hargrove and others in our run were so successful in acquiring talent, they didn't need to look at spreadsheets. Only an idiot would argue Shapiro was the caliber of John Hart.

Want good offensive players Rocky? Simple, find guys who can score 100 runs in a season and have a real good BB-K ratio and throw the rest of the BS out. Yes, it is that simple. Can they run the bases, can they move runners, can they score a guy from 3B, do they know how to bunt, drag bunt, go first to third on a base hit. It isn't difficult. Go out and get Billy Hamilton like we got Kenny Lofton.

If you are on base and can score 100 runs per season then you got a ballplayer. We need three of those guys at the moment to turn this team around. The executives we have with the Indians make it difficult because they need to find ways to make their job important. Just look at the results. They only know how to do it from spreadsheets. Antonetti started off selling sovenirs for the Montreal Expos organization. Just because he's smart doesn't mean he knows baseball talent. One pound of learning takes 10 pounds of experience to apply it.

Obviously, Phillips was unhappy and being restricted when he was with Cleveland. Who wouldn't be playing for the ultra conservative Wedge, who couldn't manage a close game win if he had too. Worst in-game manager we ever had. He was Shapiro's puppet, a Princeton football player trying to be a baseball GM. The Indians were the only job Wedge could get. We've yet to hear Phillip's side of the story, it would be interesting indeed. Most likely shocking. Wedge is still under .500, Shapiro's about to leave and the Indians are back to the 60's and 70's. Can't argue reality and it is finally here because we can only go one way up, history proves it won't be under Dolan...new ownership is needed.

Why? Doesn't matter what moves they make, they will be all made by the same people who created the mess and without baseball savvy they can't compete with others in their industry. They just don't have the backgrounds to earn the needed competitive edge to produce a winner versus all the other teams.

Most recent example ... Pomeranz over Chris Sale. A team who picked 3 or 4 soft tossing lefties in the first round, all who failed to make an impact and it looks like Pomeranz has a long way to go too.

[Rocky55]

Rocky, Phillips is an All-Star, no guarantee Chisenhall ever reaches that level. By the way, Phillips, just another huge talent evaluation mistake we never recovered from compliments of Shapiro and Wedge.

I'm sure if you asked the right scouts, Phillips was a far superior prospect at that age than Chisenhall is currently. Can't go by numbers, if you did, Phillips would have been out of baseball based on his lack of production with Indians. Good example of the problems with the Cleveland Indians to much emphasis put on numbers.

Know why?

The organization people we currenlty have making decisions, it is the only way they know how to judge talent. More to judging talent than numbers. Just ask Kenny Williams and Dave Dombrowski in our division, they privately say Shapiro is inept. So did Billy Beane. If you go back to my Sal days then you probably remember me posting a guy like Billy Martin would have put his arm around Phillips and got the talent out of him. Those were real baseball guys, who learned from experience from coming up through the sandlots and playing the game. The real reason John Hart, Charlie, Hargrove and others in our run were so successful in acquiring talent, they didn't need to look at spreadsheets. Only an idiot would argue Shapiro was the caliber of John Hart.

Want good offensive players Rocky? Simple, find guys who can score 100 runs in a season and have a real good BB-K ratio and throw the rest of the BS out. Yes, it is that simple. Can they run the bases, can they move runners, can they score a guy from 3B, do they know how to bunt, drag bunt, go first to third on a base hit. It isn't difficult. Go out and get Billy Hamilton like we got Kenny Lofton.

If you are on base and can score 100 runs per season then you got a ballplayer. We need three of those guys at the moment to turn this team around. The executives we have with the Indians make it difficult because they need to find ways to make their job important. Just look at the results. They only know how to do it from spreadsheets. Antonetti started off selling sovenirs for the Montreal Expos organization. Just because he's smart doesn't mean he knows baseball talent. One pound of learning takes 10 pounds of experience to apply it.

Obviously, Phillips was unhappy and being restricted when he was with Cleveland. Who wouldn't be playing for the ultra conservative Wedge, who couldn't manage a close game win if he had too. Worst in-game manager we ever had. He was Shapiro's puppet, a Princeton football player trying to be a baseball GM. The Indians were the only job Wedge could get. We've yet to hear Phillip's side of the story, it would be interesting indeed. Most likely shocking. Wedge is still under .500, Shapiro's about to leave and the Indians are back to the 60's and 70's. Can't argue reality and it is finally here because we can only go one way up, history proves it won't be under Dolan...new ownership is needed.

Why? Doesn't matter what moves they make, they will be all made by the same people who created the mess and without baseball savvy they can't compete with others in their industry. They just don't have the backgrounds to earn the needed competitive edge to produce a winner versus all the other teams.

Most recent example ... Pomeranz over Chris Sale. A team who picked 3 or 4 soft tossing lefties in the first round, all who failed to make an impact and it looks like Pomeranz has a long way to go too.

First thing, nobody here likes Shapiro & everyone hates Wedge. Everyone held it against Wedge for screwing around with Phillips. Phillips is a really nice player, far superior to the dregs we had replacing him. Wedge's fault he was run out of town & by extension Shapiro's, for supporting his boy Wedge for so long. You're preaching to the choir on that score.

Second thing, Phillips was no Boy Scout & was not blameless. He had a bad attitude, which is understandable, given Wedgies treatment of him. But just look at all of the players, in this system & many others, that were overlooked seemingly without justification. AFAIK, Fedroff hasn't thrown any tantrums yet.

Third thing, Phillips doesn't meet your criteria for a "good offensive player" as he isn't a big OB guy (career .323 OBP), has only scored 100 runs twice (career "162 game" average 89 RS) & doesn't walk much (career "162 game" avg 40BB). Michael Brantley is often called out about his walk rate but his averages are higher with lower K rates.

Fourth, it shouldn't be Sale over Pomeranz, it should be Grandal over Pomeranz. Plus, the "3 or 4 soft tossing lefties" were Mirabelli's babies, not Grant's. If you look at the guys from Grant's drafts that have already hit & been successful in MLB, the number of his guys flying through the minors, especially the relievers, plus the IFA guys signed in the last few years, you can't possibly question the talent eval done at the amateur level. The Major League scouts are more hit & miss.

Last, if you had followed HS/College ball at all you would know that Chisenhall's bat, specifically the hit tool, has been getting rave reviews since he was a HS Junior. Were you aware how disappointed the Red Sox were when we picked Chiz right before their selection? If we had passed on him he'd be in a Sox uni right now. Also you should know that Chiz is quite accomplished at the "small ball" game. When he played at MV I listened online to almost every game & Chiz impressed the announcers with his bunting ability plus his adeptness at the hit & run. He doesn't steal bases but he's not slow & is a good, heady base runner. BTW, Phillips hasn't stolen 20 since '09 & has only 11 this season. I think you should give him a break. He's 23, was going good until he got injured, plays for our team, & is going to be a valuable piece going forward. Repeat, he's 23. Phillips, and even Kenny Lofton didn't have their first full MLB seasons until age 25.

[Chiefroy]

Hey....I like Shapiro! And if he reads this, "I'm available to be hired. I can turn this club around!" ;)

[GeronimoSon]

Rocky, Phillips is an All-Star, no guarantee Chisenhall ever reaches that level. By the way, Phillips, just another huge talent evaluation mistake we never recovered from compliments of Shapiro and Wedge.

I'm sure if you asked the right scouts, Phillips was a far superior prospect at that age than Chisenhall is currently. Can't go by numbers, if you did, Phillips would have been out of baseball based on his lack of production with Indians. Good example of the problems with the Cleveland Indians to much emphasis put on numbers.

Know why?

The organization people we currenlty have making decisions, it is the only way they know how to judge talent. More to judging talent than numbers. Just ask Kenny Williams and Dave Dombrowski in our division, they privately say Shapiro is inept. So did Billy Beane. If you go back to my Sal days then you probably remember me posting a guy like Billy Martin would have put his arm around Phillips and got the talent out of him. Those were real baseball guys, who learned from experience from coming up through the sandlots and playing the game. The real reason John Hart, Charlie, Hargrove and others in our run were so successful in acquiring talent, they didn't need to look at spreadsheets. Only an idiot would argue Shapiro was the caliber of John Hart.

Want good offensive players Rocky? Simple, find guys who can score 100 runs in a season and have a real good BB-K ratio and throw the rest of the BS out. Yes, it is that simple. Can they run the bases, can they move runners, can they score a guy from 3B, do they know how to bunt, drag bunt, go first to third on a base hit. It isn't difficult. Go out and get Billy Hamilton like we got Kenny Lofton.

If you are on base and can score 100 runs per season then you got a ballplayer. We need three of those guys at the moment to turn this team around. The executives we have with the Indians make it difficult because they need to find ways to make their job important. Just look at the results. They only know how to do it from spreadsheets. Antonetti started off selling sovenirs for the Montreal Expos organization. Just because he's smart doesn't mean he knows baseball talent. One pound of learning takes 10 pounds of experience to apply it.

Obviously, Phillips was unhappy and being restricted when he was with Cleveland. Who wouldn't be playing for the ultra conservative Wedge, who couldn't manage a close game win if he had too. Worst in-game manager we ever had. He was Shapiro's puppet, a Princeton football player trying to be a baseball GM. The Indians were the only job Wedge could get. We've yet to hear Phillip's side of the story, it would be interesting indeed. Most likely shocking. Wedge is still under .500, Shapiro's about to leave and the Indians are back to the 60's and 70's. Can't argue reality and it is finally here because we can only go one way up, history proves it won't be under Dolan...new ownership is needed.

Why? Doesn't matter what moves they make, they will be all made by the same people who created the mess and without baseball savvy they can't compete with others in their industry. They just don't have the backgrounds to earn the needed competitive edge to produce a winner versus all the other teams.

Most recent example ... Pomeranz over Chris Sale. A team who picked 3 or 4 soft tossing lefties in the first round, all who failed to make an impact and it looks like Pomeranz has a long way to go too.

First thing, nobody here likes Shapiro & everyone hates Wedge. Everyone held it against Wedge for screwing around with Phillips. Phillips is a really nice player, far superior to the dregs we had replacing him. Wedge's fault he was run out of town & by extension Shapiro's, for supporting his boy Wedge for so long. You're preaching to the choir on that score.

Second thing, Phillips was no Boy Scout & was not blameless. He had a bad attitude, which is understandable, given Wedgies treatment of him. But just look at all of the players, in this system & many others, that were overlooked seemingly without justification. AFAIK, Fedroff hasn't thrown any tantrums yet.

Third thing, Phillips doesn't meet your criteria for a "good offensive player" as he isn't a big OB guy (career .323 OBP), has only scored 100 runs twice (career "162 game" average 89 RS) & doesn't walk much (career "162 game" avg 40BB). Michael Brantley is often called out about his walk rate but his averages are higher with lower K rates.

Fourth, it shouldn't be Sale over Pomeranz, it should be Grandal over Pomeranz. Plus, the "3 or 4 soft tossing lefties" were Mirabelli's babies, not Grant's. If you look at the guys from Grant's drafts that have already hit & been successful in MLB, the number of his guys flying through the minors, especially the relievers, plus the IFA guys signed in the last few years, you can't possibly question the talent eval done at the amateur level. The Major League scouts are more hit & miss.

Last, if you had followed HS/College ball at all you would know that Chisenhall's bat, specifically the hit tool, has been getting rave reviews since he was a HS Junior. Were you aware how disappointed the Red Sox were when we picked Chiz right before their selection? If we had passed on him he'd be in a Sox uni right now. Also you should know that Chiz is quite accomplished at the "small ball" game. When he played at MV I listened online to almost every game & Chiz impressed the announcers with his bunting ability plus his adeptness at the hit & run. He doesn't steal bases but he's not slow & is a good, heady base runner. BTW, Phillips hasn't stolen 20 since '09 & has only 11 this season. I think you should give him a break. He's 23, was going good until he got injured, plays for our team, & is going to be a valuable piece going forward. Repeat, he's 23. Phillips, and even Kenny Lofton didn't have their first full MLB seasons until age 25.

Rocky... this is a classic RustyMike kind of posting.. If Chisenhall doesn't become the next Michael Jack Schmidt, then he can belabor his "..I told you so.." drivel.. IF Chisenhall becomes the type of player the Indians scouting department deemed when they made him their number one pick.. then it's a guy who succeeds and he's pleased.. In short, it's cowardly defensive debate rhetoric that makes his opinion appear to be a "no lose" argument.. It was the guys who made the decision to select Chisenhall that are the ones taking the risk of being wrong.. It's just more of the same from him...

[ironmike]

Geronimo, no, the fact is Chisenhall doesn't draw walks. Is he just another player the Indians marketing machine gets behind to sell "hope" to the fans to guys like YOU who drink the Kool-aid?

Not being able to draw walks is a serious flaw if you are looking for an impact player.

Now do you want to debate this?

Keep trying Geronimo, must say, you are not any closer, you don't know the game. Kind of like the Indians, a second division, bottom dwelling poster.

Rocky55, believe you posted Phillips only averaged 89 runs scored, okay, that's pretty good, as a matter a fact, don't you believe we could use a player right now just like him?

[Rocky55]

Geronimo, no, the fact is Chisenhall doesn't draw walks. Is he just another player the Indians marketing machine gets behind to sell "hope" to the fans to guys like YOU who drink the Kool-aid?

Not being able to draw walks is a serious flaw if you are looking for an impact player.

Now do you want to debate this?

Keep trying Geronimo, must say, you are not any closer, you don't know the game. Kind of like the Indians, a second division, bottom dwelling poster.

Rocky55, believe you posted Phillips only averaged 89 runs scored, okay, that's pretty good, as a matter a fact, don't you believe we could use a player right now just like him?

I really like Phillips' game. We should have had him his whole career to date. I mentioned earlier that I place the blame on Wedgie & his enabler Shapiro. Can't have a team in our market size & throw away valuable assets like Phillips.

One minor detail: the 89 runs/game is a Baseball Reference stat which is a "full season" rate. Trying to be fair & giving Phillips the best advantage by using only his productive full seasons to date, namely his 6 seasons from age 25 to 30, he actually averaged 87 runs scored per season. He averaged 151 games played during that stretch. Total career, including this year, he's averaged 83 runs scored/(151game) year.

I do believe that you're astute enough not to judge Chisenhall on 90 games played as a 22-23 yr old. Phillips' walk rate for his 22-23 yr old seasons was 20 walks per season.

[GeronimoSon]

In the minors, Chisenhall maintained an 8-10 % BB rate.. Making a claim that a Chisenhall is going to be a poor hitter because he didn't walk enough in his 280 or so AB's is a clear indication, you don't know what you're talking about...

[ironmike]

Geronimo, did you ever watch Sanford and Son? What was Fred's favorite saying?

[GeronimoSon]

Geronimo, did you ever watch Sanford and Son? What was Fred's favorite saying?

WTF knows where this is going.. but if there was a "favorite" saying..it has about as much to do with this thread as the level of your knowledge of baseball.. NOTHING....

[ironmike]

I give you a clue - Big D.