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Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:57 pm

I completely agree the GM position could be vacant this offseason. Which could slow things down a bit. I'm actually for keeping Acta IF he can keep this team together throughout this season and dumping CA. If Acta loses this team, which I'm starting to wonder about, then I say replace him with Sandy Alomar Jr. and try to bring in Omar Vizquel as his bench coach.

Also, we fans usually tend to set the bar high in deals. Thing about moving guys like Masterson, Cabrera, Perez they would be 'gone early' so to speak by moving them ahead of typical market moves. These guys would not be rentals and are solid young AllStar caliber players. Only Choo would really be a rental but for a full season of control.

Personally, if I were the Tribe GM I'd move these guys out of town. My perspective would be to snag quality over quantity. So much so I would deal a guy like CPerez for one player strait up but it must be a deal in which the Tribe would get a top talent in minor league baseball in return or a young somewhat known piece.

Another thing to think about, the Tribe can bring in some veterans through FA or even salary dump type deals where they could utilize these vets until the trade deadline and then flip them. I would take an aggressive approach in trying to sign players returning from injury for a decent value / one yr deal. Say for instance the Tribe flipped CPerez for 2 players and decided to bring in Ryan Madson on a 1 yr heavily incentive laden deal. Once Madson is healthy the Tribe could then flip him to a contender for a solid spec. I would even use that as a selling point to players, which may turn some off but I also sell them heavily on the idea of hey come here and get healthy if we are winning them help us, but if we are losing while we are building, we will try to flip you to a team that wants you, may resign you and is contention now.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:06 pm

If Alomar moves into the manager slot, I'd like to see Saurbaugh somewhere on his staff.
While Omar is looking to get into coaching/ managing, I'm not sure if bench coach is where I would what him for starting out.

One name I would be interested to bring back- Wayne Kirby. He previously was in the system and has been serving as the 1st base coach in Baltimore w/ Buck Showalter. I also wonder if Charlie Nagy would want to come back and coach here with the big league team.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:27 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:If Alomar moves into the manager slot, I'd like to see Saurbaugh somewhere on his staff.
While Omar is looking to get into coaching/ managing, I'm not sure if bench coach is where I would what him for starting out.

One name I would be interested to bring back- Wayne Kirby. He previously was in the system and has been serving as the 1st base coach in Baltimore w/ Buck Showalter. I also wonder if Charlie Nagy would want to come back and coach here with the big league team.


As far as Nagy goes, money talks, and it all depends on what he wants to do. He might like Arizona and more power to him. I for one would be for seeing him return.

As for Omar? Well apparently he feels he'll be the next Robin Ventura and just jump to the top. We'll see about that one.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:44 pm

My point on Omar wasn't really bench coach per se, rather get him on the staff I'd offer him that if that's what it took. Rather have a more exp. guy in there myself.
I'd love to see the Tribe bring back Nagy.
I think the next mth plus will decide Acta's fate. He's been handled a hard deal, he's squeezed quite a bit from very little IMO but if he's frustrated and he's lost the team, it's time to move on.
I believe Alomar is about as ready as he will be, he should be first on the list if Acta is let go.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:55 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:It's worth discussion that a total "blowup" of sorts is worth a potential infusion of talent into the minors again, and perhaps resetting things that the Ubaldo trade might have messed up.

But I read some of these trade ideas, and while we all dream of dealing high, it's worth noting that some teams just aren't willing to deal enough players to make it worth the Indians time. I just hope people don't set themselves up for a let down if the Indians make a few trades and the return is underwhelming.

Just something to think about. It's not as if CA has done much to inspire confidence that he will get worthy value. Plus, there is always the outside chance that the GM position is in question.

In the "Lazy Sunday" column I mentioned earlier AZ GM Kevin Towers is quoted as saying:

"We've been thinking about(next year's shortstop) all year already. There's not a lot on the free-agent market, so more than likely it's going to take a trade. We'll probably have to trade a good player, or a couple of good players, to find one."

Asdrubal is definitely better than any FA available and it seems like Towers is being realistic about the price for what he wants. AZ is probably out of it this season but is an org on the rise and Asdrubal gives them 2 yrs of an All-Star capable player at a position they've targeted at a reasonable salary. I'd ask for Skaggs+ and they have really nice young pitching depth, so I'd try for another pitcher to go with Skaggs.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:07 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:My point on Omar wasn't really bench coach per se, rather get him on the staff I'd offer him that if that's what it took. Rather have a more exp. guy in there myself.
I'd love to see the Tribe bring back Nagy.
I think the next mth plus will decide Acta's fate. He's been handled a hard deal, he's squeezed quite a bit from very little IMO but if he's frustrated and he's lost the team, it's time to move on.
I believe Alomar is about as ready as he will be, he should be first on the list if Acta is let go.


Lillibridge has shown me why teams were willing to pay an "elderly" Omar to be their utility infielder. Whatever Liilibridge provides that Donald does escapes me.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:27 pm

Here is an example of how the Indians could start working on next year's roster.

The Cubs have DFA'ed Scott Maine. He is a 27 year old LHRP. He's not great, but he shows potential with good SO/9.
They could offer (as a PTBNL) Nick Hagadone. There is obvious bad blood between the Indians and him. I believe the ship has sailed as far as his future here. In Maine, he could be replaced with something similar.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:34 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Here is an example of how the Indians could start working on next year's roster.

The Cubs have DFA'ed Scott Maine. He is a 27 year old LHRP. He's not great, but he shows potential with good SO/9.
They could offer (as a PTBNL) Nick Hagadone. There is obvious bad blood between the Indians and him. I believe the ship has sailed as far as his future here. In Maine, he could be replaced with something similar.


On the contrary.. not only was Hagadone apologetic about his outburst he was quite sincere about wanting to "right" what he did.... He still has huge upside for work as a lefty out of the pen. Trading him for Scott Maine (as his replacement) would be a step in the wrong direction.. BTW...

There is no ship..

Nothing has sailed..

And Nick Hagadone's future here is still bright..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:42 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The more I look at this team, I think blow it up!
I'm moving Masterson, ACab, CPerez, Choo and Smith all in trades.

Here's a cpl names I throw out there...
Masterson to Boston for Bryce Brentz, Matt Barnes and Brandon Workman.
ACab to AZ for Patrick Corbin and Gerardo Parra


Overall... +1.

The Masterson trade would send "chills" down Ben Cherrington's spine over a "deja vu" type situation (VMart for three guys) For this reason, I doubt the red sox make barnes available but he is clearly an interesting arm with potential to be a FOR SP.. It wouldn't be a huge stretch to see the red sox combine the players/prospects acquired from the AGonz trade along with their own farm system and use them as currency to acquire players like Masterson, Asdrubal and or Shin-soo Choo, among others....

The Droobs to the DBax idea: Corbin with the inclusion of Gerardo Parra might be a bit "lite"..I'd sure love to see Archie instead or even a couple of their corner IF'ers..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:47 pm

Frankly, I don't understand at this point into the season why the Tribe doesn't dump some of the roster fodder now, and take a stab at a few of these guys that are be passed through waivers.

As Ghost of Ted Cox pointed out...
a lefty pen arm like Scott Maine with a high K rate could be a piece (Loogy) for the future. Another name I'll drop Brandon Laird a 24 yo RH 1b / 3b from the Yankees. He has a little pop, would be a very avg hitter but could develop into RH corner utility guy... I don't really expect him to be much of anything on the ML level but why not give a few of these guys a shot. Maine specifically caught my interest bc of the high k rate, but has struggled with too many walks. But good lefties are hard to find.
BTW I think Hagadone for Maine would be over paying.
Last edited by homerawayfromhome on Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:51 pm

Agreed Geronimo Son, I actually meant to add Davidson in there too. I completely agree about the Red Sox, they will be major players in offseason. Cherington has taken a bold step in bldg that franchise after his own wishes, quite interesting deal by the BoSox freeing all that money and actually getting a decent (usable) return in doing so.

1 player I covet is Mike Olt the power hitting corner IF, and hopefully future 1b of the Tribe. It would probably have to be a deal for Justin Masterson to get it done.
If Justin Hamilton leaves TX Choo would be a possibility.
I'm also huge on Archie Bradley...if you recall last yr the Tribe was hot for Bradley too. From my understanding their board was Bradley, Lindor. Great consolation prize Btw.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:10 pm

Mlbtraderumors is reporting Jason Vargas is on trade waivers... I hope the Tribe looks to the future (2013) with Vargas and places a claim. Why not he's controllable a fairly good pitcher at a decent salary, why not try to build the rotation for next yr. I'd even try extend Vargas a cpl yrs if I could get him here.

Something that I find disturbing is that I haven't heard any of the Tribe players being placed through waivers yet. Although they usually place a high number of guys through waivers.

Another trade idea:
Choo to LAA for Bourjos and a cpl prospects
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:48 pm

Like the Vargas idea. We need LHSP's. One reason I'd target Skaggs over Bradley is the dearth of LHP's in our rotation. Similar upside too, but Skaggs is ML ready.

Vargas makes almost $5 million this season, is 2nd year arb eligible, & is having a really nice year. I have no clue how to calculate arb awards but he may be a bit expensive for a non contender. That said, we do need to field a team & the FO might surprise us with the desire to have actual ML players with the big club. With judicious trades of redundant talent & maybe some smart/lower cost FA signings, who knows? The AL Central isn't that tough.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:59 am

Mlbtraderumors calculated Vargas would probably get $8.1 mil in arb. I think that would be more than fair. Vargas would be a nice add, sad but I doubt they go for it with him.
3 lefties I'd like to see them pursue in trades...
Vargas, Skaggs, Corbin.

Hmmm... Maybe a Choo for Vargas, and Thames deal would be a good starting point?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:05 am

No chance the Indians get Vargas if you ask me.

The Mariners aren't going to let him go for the cost of a waiver claim, they're gonna want legit talent in return. If the Indians win the waiver claim and don't offer up actual prospects, then the Ms will just look to move him in the off-season and get a bidding war going.

They're also going to want cost-controlled players in return for him as well - not impending FAs like Choo!

For a team in the Indians position to trade away prospects for a guy under control for only 1 more year doesn't make any sense. If he was the missing piece to put us over the top, then fine. But, the best Vargas can do for this team next year is take them from putrid to just awful!

They're not going to deplete an already thin farm system for that.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:16 am

DazanUk, depleting the farm system should not be a worry. Fix the ML team first at all costs because if there are no fans, advertisers or partners then there is no farm system. Besides the farm system is not as good as being reported.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:26 am

ironmike wrote:DazanUk, depleting the farm system should not be a worry. Fix the ML team first at all costs because if there are no fans, advertisers or partners then there is no farm system. Besides the farm system is not as good as being reported.


I did say the farm was already thin. However, my main point was a guy signed for one year does not fix the ML team.

Vargas would make us a "better" team, no doubt..... but better than awful isn't fixed. Add that to the fact he'd leave after the 2013 season no doubt and it's a trade that just doesn't fit.

With this front office, it's all about getting cost controlled players.... not impending free agents.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:09 am

Onto the Dodgers as a potential trading partner... well, tbh, the Dodgers have been systematically wiping out their minor league system over the past year.. If you think the Indians farm system is bare.. take a look at the Dodgers minor leagues. The Dodgers may have a couple of interesting players:

Joc Pederson, a LH OF'er with some upside..
Brian Cavazos-Galvez RH OF'er with limited upside
Leon Landry.. a LH CF'er obtained in trade..and
Zach Lee.. the only stud FOR candidate left in the system.

A trade involving the Dodgers has to start with Zach Lee... which may not ever happen, but, he would be the kind of prospect the Indians should target.. The Dodgers are in a unique position.. They are in the middle of a pennant race with the Giants, but do not have the healthy talent needed to over take them. The Dodgers only hope, imho, would be to use their financial muscle from their pending MEGA - Broadcasting deal to vastly upgrade their chances for 2012 and beyond.. For the Indians, trading for a player like Chad Billingsley, after the health of his elbow is fully understood and acceptable, would have to include at least some, if not all of the $ 26 MM over the next three years including the $ 3 MM buy out in 2015 along with the inclusion of Zach Lee. This would be a very risky move, but, if Lee is included, the risk would be somewhat mitigated.. In short, without a dump truck full of cash and their top prospect and/or a third party involved, a deal with the Dodgers seems to be highly unlikely..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:41 pm

I disagree about Vargas, I think it's reasonable to make a trade like the one I suggested Choo for Vargas. I understand it's the same situation with contracts, but Vargas may be more open to tagging on a few yrs than Choo is. Vargas would add innings that have to be pitched and some qlty ones at that. I would by no means settle, there I'd want an OF back in that type deal too. Just throwing the idea out there.
The worse case is he could by the young arms some time and then get flipped himself. My whole point even suggesting a trade like this is simply the Tribe must be creative and think outside the box.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:24 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Vargas may be more open to tagging on a few yrs than Choo is.


So, why would the Ms do the deal then?

They're not going to trade their expiring contract for another expiring contract that's less likely to sign an extension!

If and when the Ms trade Vargas they will want cost controlled players in return.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:05 pm

First the Ms actually have pitching depth, Vargas is going up in cost and could bring them pieces back in return that make the team better overall.

Second Choo has been with the Ms before, the Tribe has had genuine interest in Vargas before so there could be real interest. Frankly, doubt the Tribe would make this kind deal and I understand the Ms might be hesitant too.

The Tribe must think outside the box and be creative in so doing that was the entire point. I don't seriously believe the Tribe will move Choo for Vargas. Although I think the Tribe will kick the tires on the cost of Vargas as they should. He just simply a solid but unspectacular pitcher and would be a much needed LH in the rotation who will log his fair share of which would take pressur off of the young pen arms we will likely be seeing next yr.

I fully expect the Tribe to move Choo, CPerez, Smith and quite possibly ACab and Masterson. Although I think there is a possibility that the Tribe keeps ACab, and Masterson around throughout most of next season. I don't think it will be done in classic sell fashion however that being for specs yrs off. The Tribe will want at least a NOW type player or two back in the bigger type deals.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:50 am

Just another example of the BS they feed us, will it ever end?

"Like any pitcher coming off surgery, his elbow is still tight, but he's been pitching well," said Ross Atkins, Indians director of player development. "He just punched out five guys in two innings in Arizona while throwing between 97 mph and 98 mph."

He'll (Rondon) make the team eventually and be sent back and forth to Columbus about 10 times, yet he throws 98 MPH.

Unbelieveable.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:24 pm

Onto the Pirates as the next potential trading partner...

The Pirates are currently going through a rough patch in this season.. The Pirates have a some good statistics as a team and some less than good statistics. For the most part, they are "middle of the pack" in most of the pitching categories (except for their relief corp, which has been very good all season) The hitting stats are nothing spectacular in any way... The end result is a team that is playing a bit over .500 that has a chance at the playoffs, but only IF they can make something happen.. The Pirates have at least a couple of holes in their everyday lineup.. corner outfields and corner infielders. They also lack a superb backstop.. The starters, as a group, are the biggest obstacle for the Pirates success in down the stretch in 2012 ...

The Pirates would LOVE to acquire a young-ish MOR / FOR type starter.. perhaps some one like Justin Masterson.. The Pirates do have quite a few guys who's they've drafted that could be of interest..James Taillon, Gerrit Cole, Brock Holdt, Sterling Marte and others all fit the bill.. For the Pirates to win a wild card spot in 2012.. Neil Huntington is going to have to ask someone he knows he's smarter than for a trade.. I can hear the conversation on the phone already:

....CA's ring tone ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYRChrXCYPA )
....Hello, this is Neil.. Neil Huntington..your old pal..
....CA: You always told me the coffee I got you was too cold.. you're a mean person...
....NH: Don't be like that chrissie.. I'm calling to make you a hero with the Cleveland fans !..
....CA: Oh yeah!!.. what do I have to do????....
....MH: First off, I can't trade the Steelers for the Browns.. never gonna happen.. you have to keep those losers there..
....CA: That's okay, when they start off the season 0-4, it will make the Indians look better...
....NH: Now focus Chrissie.. the Pirates are willing to offer Gerrit Cole and any prospect at AA or below....
....CA: I'll DO IT !!!!
....NH: Chrissie..just wait!! Let me tell you the entire deal before you have to have your big boy pull ups changed...
....CA: Okay..I'm listening.. but I have to go potty now... I'll be right back...
several minutes pass....
....CA: I did a poo poo in my pull ups.. I'm so ashamed...
....NH: okay okay already with the excretions.. It's Gerrit Cole and any non-pitching prospect at AA or below for Masterson.
....CA: So we can get Josh Bell with Gerrit Cole for Justin Masterson?.. We'll Do it !!..

click...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:31 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Frankly, I don't understand at this point into the season why the Tribe doesn't dump some of the roster fodder now, and take a stab at a few of these guys that are be passed through waivers.

As Ghost of Ted Cox pointed out...
a lefty pen arm like Scott Maine with a high K rate could be a piece (Loogy) for the future. Another name I'll drop Brandon Laird a 24 yo RH 1b / 3b from the Yankees. He has a little pop, would be a very avg hitter but could develop into RH corner utility guy... I don't really expect him to be much of anything on the ML level but why not give a few of these guys a shot. Maine specifically caught my interest bc of the high k rate, but has struggled with too many walks. But good lefties are hard to find.
BTW I think Hagadone for Maine would be over paying.


Good call on Scott Maine. Indians just claimed him.

I posted earlier in the thread that Laird seems like a possibility. Wouldn't completely understand it, but I can see it.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:41 pm

Scott Maine could be a little, piece along the way...
I don't expect nothing more than a Loogy but why not? He's reportedly got good stuff has high k and walk rate and of interest CPerez and Maine pitched in Miami together. Btw I think Ghost of Ted Cox also posted about him.

Looks like Shelley Duncan has gotten the axe, DFA' d today with Gomez recall. I think we see a few moves start taking place early next wk and more later in the month of Sept.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:43 pm

Indians DFA Shelley Duncan to make room for Maine on the 40, and Jeanmar Gomez on the 25. Rumor has it they're considering a 6-man rotation for the rest of the year, and the Gomez call up seems to confirm that.

So now, LaPorta, Canzler, Rottino and maybe Goedert battle it out for a chance to take Duncan's spot next year. Personally, I'm inclined to think that Goedert should get it, but he's not on the 40 and might have the longest shot. I think LaPorta will get it, but I'm pretty much done with him after watching him strike out 5 times, walk zero, and get one lousy hit in 11 at bats since being recalled. Seems to be confirming what everyone with knowledge of the situation had been saying all year. He still hasn't fixed his issues with breaking pitches, he hasn't improved anything that would make him more than the awful player he was before being demoted.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:51 pm

Edible14 wrote:Rumor has it they're considering a 6-man rotation for the rest of the year, and the Gomez call up seems to confirm that.


Yeah, I read a story on Indians.com that Manny said the Tribe were considering going to a 6-man rotation in September.

Maybe with Hernandez being day to day they've decided to go ahead with that plan a little early and give Hernandez's ankle a couple of extra days to heal.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:42 pm

The 6-man rotation is a great idea! Now all we need is 6 pitchers...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:55 pm

Well, apparently Manny has said Gomez is in the pen "for now".
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:57 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, apparently Manny has said Gomez is in the pen "for now".

Probably a wise choice… this team needs five long-relievers more than it needs six starters.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:02 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:The 6-man rotation is a great idea! Now all we need is 6 pitchers...


With 3 sinker ballers, I think a 4 man rotation would be best. Now which 4? Seriously though, I have heard that too many days off screws up finess pitchers.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:08 pm

daingean wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:The 6-man rotation is a great idea! Now all we need is 6 pitchers...


With 3 sinker ballers, I think a 4 man rotation would be best. Now which 4? Seriously though, I have heard that too many days off screws up finess pitchers.


"Finesse" implies the starters have some form of command - that applies to approximately ZERO of the Indians starters.

When Indians starters need 100 pitchers to get through 5 innings most of the time, a 4-man rotation is a (even bigger) disaster waiting to happen.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby timdav » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:34 pm

The 2012 Indians are such a mess...it might be expecting too much to think the final 30 some games will tell us a whole lot more than we already know about the players at the major league level or in AAA or AA.

None of us know if the front office simply didn't have enough payroll budget to hire the best scouts and player development people.

But, what we do know is the results of free agent signings and the 3 or 4 biggest trades over the past few years has been disasterous....which tells you all you have to know about the quality of their judgement of players.

Working for a mid-to-small market revenue baseball team IS tough...and there's practically no margin for error...which is insane. But, these guys in the front office knew what they were getting into when they accepted their jobs over 12 years ago.

It would be highly hypocritical to year after year after year blame everybody in the organization for failure, except the very people who are charged with putting the team together and hiring managers/coaches/scouts/farm directors/and players. Obviously doing more and more of the same hasn't solved the problems of this organization...it's only made it worse.

Fans like us aren't experts in baseball...but we know what we see...we can read the standings. We Cleveland Indians fans deserve better than a lukewarm "we hope to be competitive in our division...get to the playoffs, and anything can happen" official position. That statement is insulting to the very people who pay for everything: the fans, viewers, and listeners of Indians baseball.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:54 pm

timdav wrote:The 2012 Indians are such a mess...it might be expecting too much to think the final 30 some games will tell us a whole lot more than we already know about the players at the major league level or in AAA or AA.

None of us know if the front office simply didn't have enough payroll budget to hire the best scouts and player development people.

But, what we do know is the results of free agent signings and the 3 or 4 biggest trades over the past few years has been disasterous....which tells you all you have to know about the quality of their judgement of players.

Working for a mid-to-small revenue baseball team IS tough...and there's practically no margin for error...which is insane. But, these guys in the front office knew what they were getting into when they accepted their jobs.

It would be highly hypocritical to year after year after year blame everybody in the organization for failure, except the very people who are charged with putting the team together and hiring managers/coaches/scouts/farm directors/and players.

Fans like us aren't experts in baseball...but we know what we see...we can read the standings. We Cleveland Indians fans deserve better than a lukewarm "we hope to be competitive in our division...get to the playoffs, and anything can happen" official position. That statement is insulting to the very people who pay for everything: the fans, viewers, and listeners to Indians baseball.


I think the whole FO has gotten too comfortable in their jobs. The HOPE to be competitive needs to be replaced with WILL be competitive. The last 2 years were an opportunity to get to the playoffs or at least be competitive until the end. I realistically know this team won't be the team to beat in the playoffs very often (like 2 years in my life time) but we almost won a WS with maybe our least productive team during our run (1997). We just don't have the budget to keep our guys. We should have enough budget to keep some key guys.

I can see Choo going. After all he wasn't originally signed by the organization and didn't come up with them. We were patient with him during his Tommy John recovery year. Our hope more is in the Thome and Manny type players who will resign with us (which they both did their first op but not the second time around). This really puts the onus on the scouts making the right decisions and building through the draft/foreign FA market. The FA market should be for finishing off the team. Unfortunately, we were horrible for years drafting which I contend was because we were drafting scared and went safe but not projectable. For the most part, we have been drafting as Mike Hart says in "Drafting Tools". With guys like Levon, Miles, Shubert-McAdams, Wolters, McClure and Lindor (and even Naquin) we have guys that are athletes. Drafting guys like Sowers, Mills, Gutherie, Aubrey, and Crowe was more like get these guys because they will play in the majors (5 of 6 did) but none were studs. Really injuries ruined our Tools picks in A.Miller and M. Whitney (and even JD Martin).

In general, I think philosophy is more of the problem then what they are spending. I do know this, I live in a talent rich baseball area (very close to East Cobb Baseball - my son plays there). Several scouts were hanging around our HS field last year but at no time was there an Indians scout there.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:27 pm

This team is best suited for a 5-year work stoppage...
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:06 am

I don't think the trades have been disastrous. I actually think we got pretty good value for CC and Cliff, considering the other trades Cliff netted and that CC had only half a season left in him. The problem to me is that we haven't drafted (or signed in the international market) any top of the line starters since CC Sabathia. The Rays' model can work, but only if you're getting some David Prices along the way. We've gotten instead Fauxberto Hernandez, Adam Miller, Hector Rondon, Kelvin De La Cruz and Drew Pomeranz.

Not all of those guys can be chalked up to a failure in scouting, mind you (Miller and Rondon are severely unfortunate, but those things do happen). But this team was supposed to be built on pitching, and you're just not going to find a developing ace in a trade anymore. The last time it happened was with Cliff Lee, and there were certainly some extreme circumstances in that deal. As much as I would love to be able to flip some combination of Choo, Perez and Phelps for a guy like Taillon, it's not going to happen. The best kind of guys you'll get in those trades are guys like Masterson and Carrasco. Guys that might be good 2/3 guys, that will flash potential of being an ace, but they're not going to be a real answer for the Justin Verlanders of the world.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:30 am

For those looking for some hope for the future there was this Hoynes column in the PD:

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... rasco.html

He's reporting that Hector Rondon, 24, is throwing 97-98 mph in Arizona as he comes off elbow surgery. This kid was one of our top pitching prospects before having TJ and elbow surgery. Looks like his arm is fully recovered and he's throwing harder than ever, which pitchers generally do after having TJ.

Carlos Carrasco is throwing 97 mph coming off TJ.

My feeling is that it's time to turn the page. I would be fine with a rotation of Masterson, McAlister, Kluber, Rondon, and Carrasco next year. Let the young starters with the big arms learn on the job. What are we going to do - watch Hernandez and Ubaldo stink it up another year? The team won't compete either way so they might as well bring in the next generation.

Right now McAlister and Kluber are taking their lumps. They both show a lot of promise, but they're not finished products yet. Let Rondon and Carrasco join them - at least these guys have an upside. The only chance of the Indians having a playoff caliber rotation is force feeding guys like these. We can't keep waiting for Fausto to have another 2007 or Ubaldo to have another 2010 (first half). It just isn't going to happen.

If they think Rondon or Carrasco needs a year or half-year in AAA to be "finished off", then I'm OK with picking up Ubaldo's option. But if he pitches anything close to decent the first half he should be traded before the deadline.

The next wave in Columbus would be guys like Jeanmar Gomez, Austin Adams, and Danny Salazar. Adams is another guy who threw in the high 90's before TJ.

And by all means, the Tribe's first round pick this year, which should be the 5th overall or better, needs to be a FOR starter.

Finally, trade Choo and Chris Perez for some right-handed bats at 1B and LF to balance the lineup.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby daingean » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:38 am

Prosecutor wrote:For those looking for some hope for the future there was this Hoynes column in the PD:

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... rasco.html

He's reporting that Hector Rondon, 24, is throwing 97-98 mph in Arizona as he comes off elbow surgery. This kid was one of our top pitching prospects before having TJ and elbow surgery. Looks like his arm is fully recovered and he's throwing harder than ever, which pitchers generally do after having TJ.

Carlos Carrasco is throwing 97 mph coming off TJ.

My feeling is that it's time to turn the page. I would be fine with a rotation of Masterson, McAlister, Kluber, Rondon, and Carrasco next year. Let the young starters with the big arms learn on the job. What are we going to do - watch Hernandez and Ubaldo stink it up another year? The team won't compete either way so they might as well bring in the next generation.

Right now McAlister and Kluber are taking their lumps. They both show a lot of promise, but they're not finished products yet. Let Rondon and Carrasco join them - at least these guys have an upside. The only chance of the Indians having a playoff caliber rotation is force feeding guys like these. We can't keep waiting for Fausto to have another 2007 or Ubaldo to have another 2010 (first half). It just isn't going to happen.



According to both Hoynes and Tony (via tweet), Rondon is no longer a starter candidate but Barnes is. So you can swap Rondon for Barnes. My guess is the Carrasco will be on an innings limit next season like Strausberg and Medlin (Braves) are this year. The Braves put Medlin in the pen for half a season then moved him back to starter so he's not in danger of being shutdown during the playoffs.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby ironmike » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:56 am

Craig Mitchell, afternoon host on ESPN 970 AM Ashtabula, yesterday reported his sources tell him the Indians are discussing or have discussed a block buster trade with the SF Giants. The Indians would send Asdrubal Cabrera, Chris Perez and Choo for the Giants for up to 9 players with at least two of them being ML ready players. He did not mention who the players were with the Giants. He added the Indians are not happy with Cabrera's weight issues citing he had his best years when he weighed in at 185 lbs.

Also, the Indians might be interested in FA LHP Randy Wolfe and Ryan Dempster. If Jeff Francouer is put on waivers by KC the Indians claim him.

Don't know how accurate all this is, but I'm certain there is going to be much speculation like this going forward.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:17 am

ironmike wrote:Craig Mitchell, afternoon host on ESPN 970 AM Ashtabula, yesterday reported his sources tell him the Indians are discussing or have discussed a block buster trade with the SF Giants. The Indians would send Asdrubal Cabrera, Chris Perez and Choo for the Giants for up to 9 players with at least two of them being ML ready players. He did not mention who the players were with the Giants. He added the Indians are not happy with Cabrera's weight issues citing he had his best years when he weighed in at 185 lbs.

Also, the Indians might be interested in FA LHP Randy Wolfe and Ryan Dempster. If Jeff Francouer is put on waivers by KC the Indians claim him.

Don't know how accurate all this is, but I'm certain there is going to be much speculation like this going forward.


Not calling you a liar by any means since you cited a source for this, but as a whole, it sounds like a whole bunch of BS.

The Indians and Giants may have discussed all of those names with each other but I doubt the Giants have enough to grab all 3, even if the Giants paid every penny of their contracts.

It just sounds like a crappy rumor in light of the Dodgers claiming every player known to man that was put on trade waivers.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:46 am

The complement of Indians starting pitching is not limited to the number of options save for current status on the 40 man roster. For a team like the Indians who have failed so mightily in August, the hold on a 40 man roster spot, regardless of who the pitcher is, is clearly tentative.. The starting pitching staff at the ML level now and the options in the minors could include:

Current starting staff: Justin Masterson, Ubaldo Jimenez, Roberto Hernandez, Corey Kluber and Zach McAllister
MiLB Options: Scott Barnes, Carlos Carrasco, JeanMar Gomez as the top three candidates followed, in no particular order by Paolo Espino, Danny Salazar, Austin Adams, and Hector Rondon.

This represents ALL the SP options the Indians will have going into 2013.. Realistic Indians fans already know that there will not be a repeat of the Derek Lowe situation.. nor will the Indians be competitive financially with other clubs that may be looking to acquire the Zach Greinke's or Jake Peavy's or James Shields', all possible FA's during the coming hot stove season. Don't count on it.. it's not going to happen. The Indians only means to get a F.O.R. SP will have to be in trade.

A pet peeve that comes along all too frequently with the Indians is the Indians deep thinkers have no issue with converting a pitcher to a bullpen role.. and then KEEPING them there. While this type of decision usually speeds up the progress toward becoming a major league pitcher, it leaves a pretty deep void in starter options. While it's clearly "against the grain", once a pitcher is 'converted', they seldom return to the role as a starter, however, there are some notable exceptions..

The Indians' Nick Hagadone is clearly in this category. Does he have the chops to be a starter?. He's been given everything BUT the opportunity to be a starter and has shown quite a bit of upside as a bullpen guy. Maybe that IS his best role. When Justin Masterson was in this situation with the Red Sox prior to being traded to the Indians, more than one poster came to the conclusion he's a back of the pen closer. The Indians deep thinkers came to the conclusion that he is a starter.. and have been rewarded for their foresight. Maybe more insight is needed..

So, who will comprise the Indians starting staff in 2013?.. Best guesses?..

So, the Question
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Current starting staff: Justin Masterson, Ubaldo Jimenez, Roberto Hernandez, Corey Kluber and Zach McAllister
MiLB Options: Scott Barnes, Carlos Carrasco, JeanMar Gomez as the top three candidates followed, in no particular order by Paolo Espino, Danny Salazar, Austin Adams, and Hector Rondon.

So, who will comprise the Indians starting staff in 2013?.. Best guesses?..

So, the Question


Well clearly we can only answer with names that are currently in house, and speculate on who we'd love to see in an Indians uniform.

I would think Espino is at least a depth option..and really, is he going to be worse than Hernandez/Jimenez? Not likely going to offer a chance to be better than either of those 2, but he won't be making 6 million a season either.

I hope Salazar is continued to be developed as a starter, I know some already think he's a pen arm, but just the same reason you mentioned, this team needs starting depth, especially 1 or 2 with at least some potential strike out punch.

Carrasco should be back, likely with an innings limit, perhaps he stays in extended spring training before returning to the Indians rotation?

We now have Hector Rondon returning to the pen.

I thought Austin Adams required season ending shoulder surgery, given his age, he would almost be a given to move into the pen.

Scott Barnes didn't impress in the pen after his intial 3-4 games pitched. Given the lack of starting depth, and with Scott Maine, Nick Hagadone, and Tony Sipp (possibly) still around, I think Barnes returns to the rotation to start 2013.

I think this is David Huff's last season with the Indians. TJ McFarland is an interesting option IMO. Could improve his #'s with a 2nd tour of AAA, similar to McAllister.

Unless he gets moved (I doubt he will) Masterson is in the rotation based on the potential to regain 2011 form. Zack McAllister has made as good a case as anyone for a spot as well. Carrasco eventually.

Kluber, Gomez, and I suppose Kevin Slowey are the only in house guys I can see with a legit chance to break camp with the big club. So much of that depends on all the usual variables, who's brought in, who gets moved? Do the Indians sign a starter? Do they even pick up the options on either Jimenez or Carmonandez?
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:08 pm

I think our answers are mostly outside the org. That said I believe we will see guys like Kluber and Barnes battle for rotation spots next spring. I believe primarily that there will be a large influx of talent into the org. through several trades. Don't be shocked to see a large portion of this roster overhauled. I believe we will see a a fairly large scale rebuild, but not entirely.
Dolan needs to eat crow, openly apologize to the fans, drop seating prices, dump the entire FO, keep Alomar, Sarbaugh, Niebla, and Brad Grant and bring sweeping change. While I doubt this happens full scale there will be a number changes and the largest one(s) will likely be managerial as well as a change in org. philosophy.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:32 pm

I doubt we see the massive trade that is rumored although I believe we see a number of guys moved to influx talent back into the org.

The names likely moved: Choo (100%), CPerez (75%), ACabrera (75%).
Other potential movers: Masterson (50%), Sipp (50%), Smith (50%).
Possible movers: Phelps, Marson.

While it's highly unlikely we see a huge trade as has been suggested, I don't doubt we might see a few deals where the Tribe pkgs a few pieces to max the return in a cpl trades. Here's a few examples...

Choo and Smith to the Giants for Brown, Blackburn, Crick and Parker.
or
Cabrera and Smith to the Dbax for Skaggs, Parra, Davidson and Bianco.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Edible14 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:16 pm

I'm not liking the Giants as a trade partner. We need starting pitching or corner players coming back, and their best prospects are neither. If we're going to be bundling ACab, Choo and Perez in one deal, we need to be demanding a pitcher with good potential to be a #1 pitcher in return, along with a few other things. The only team I can think of off the top of my head that might want to do that is the Pirates, who could use an upgrade both at RF and SS (though not so sure they need/want Chris Perez), and they do have a pair of potential aces.

To say nothing of the PR effect it would have to trade those 3, also think of who that would leave us with at SS next year. We could try Donald there again... or we'd have Juan Diaz. Or whatever retread we could sign (Scutaro?).
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:46 pm

I could easily see a blockbuster trade. They really need to shake things up. And yes, Asdrubal is too fat and makes too many errors. At least last year we had some highlight reel plays to offset the errors, but those have certainly dried up.

Choo needs to be traded due to his contract situation and we have a couple of closers in waiting to replace Perez, who is getting too expensive for a team that has little need of a closer after going 5-23 this month.

I don't know if it will be all three going in one deal or whether it will be 2-3 separate deals, but I can really see all of them going.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:53 pm

I think Boston, Texas, AZ, Oak, LA, SF, Pit, Atl, Cin, Philly are some teams the Tribe will talk with. I don't think the Yanks have the prospects to land Choo. Cin might be interested in CPerez, and they were rumored to have interest in Choo. AZ and Oak need a Shortstop, Texas might have interest in all three and have the system to make moves, Boston's new found freedom may allow them the flexibility to move on a few, particularly Masterson who reportedly have tried to reacquire several times since trading him.

I somewhat disagree that SF is not a good trade partner... Gary Brown would probably be the CF for the future, Clayton Blackburn-RHSP and Kyle Crick-RHSP are talented SP prospects that will move qkly.
Texas has talented LHSP Martin Perez and power RH hitting 1b / 3b Mike Olt.
AZ has pitchers: Trevor Bauer--RHSP, Archie Bradley-RHSP, Patrick Corbin-LHSP, Tyler Skaggs-LHSP and 1b prospects in Matt Davidson (RH) and Ryan Wheeler (LH).
Boston has Bryce Brentz a RH corner OF, Matt Barnes-RHSP and Allen Webster-RHSP just acq. in the recent mega-deal.
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:40 pm

Another team that might be of interest to the Indians in a trade could be the St Louis Cardinals. The Indians and Cardinals have made several trades over the near past, so they have a pretty good familiarity/working relationship to start with.. There may be a pretty good need for one..right now.. If you were watching the MLB Network game this evening instead of watching the Browns humiliate themselves, again (Nats v Cards) you were able to see Rafael Fucal leave the game after injuring his throwing arm, presumably, his elbow.. While it's still too early to say and it might not be "serious", it sure looked pretty bad.. The grimace on his face when he attempted to throw a ball was telling..

So, who is it the the Indians would target for Asdrubal Cabrera?.. How about..Matt Carpenter... Shelby Miller (who has FOR stuff, but hasn't progressed this season for no known reason), or Oscar Taveras.. or Matt Adams.. or as a PTBNL: Michael Wacha or Stephen Piscotty? ... Some combination or a two for one...

The Indians have at least four SS prospects that are all show significant ML potential.. The Cards could be in a world of hurt if they don't have a solid SS going down the stretch.... CA could be on the phone to Mr Mozielak.. Perhaps, the sooner the better..
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:44 pm

i believe Furcal is signed thru next year, so unless the injury is severe enough to require Tommy John surgery or something, I think they would look for a defense-first, stop-gap type to get them thru this season. No need for AsCab and the prospect loss if 2013 is not a concern.

I've been looking at the Rockies and about a Choo for Colvin/Rutledge deal. Probably take more since Choo would be a 1 year guy, but I would consider him an upgrade for them...maybe 30 HR in that park. We might have to include a really solid pitching prospect or one of our minor league SS prospects, but we'd have a RF replacement and a righty bat SS who's looking like a pretty damn good hitter. We'd have to have a deal for Cabrera in the works of course, preferably for a starting pitcher. Either that or move AsCab to 3rd base and deal Chisenhall. Just thinking out loud..... :cool
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Re: Building the 2013 Cleveland Indians

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:49 pm

I really don't see the point in speculating about trades involving Cabrera or Choo to one of the top teams in the National League before the end of the season. Both of them are on contracts that any team would gladly pay, so they aren't going to clear the waiver process it would require to get them to those teams. 20-some teams would have to say "no thanks" in order to line up a trade between the Indians and the Cardinals or Giants. Not to mention that they only have until tomorrow night to make a deal to any team that wants to use that player for the playoffs. Trading them in the off-season is a completely different matter.
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