Official 2012 Cleveland Indians game thread

by **Prosecutor** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:39 am

If you missed it, here's a long and detailed column in which the writer makes a case that the Indians are drafting much, much better since Grant took over for Mirabelli as Director of Amateur Scouting in late 2008.

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/clevelan ... azy-sunday

I think he might be overly optimistic about some of the farm hands he mentions, but it does seem the drafting has improved under Grant and the talent on the major league team will gradually improve as the draft picks from the last four years bubble to the surface.

Unfortunately, it's a race to keep the decent youngish players we have (Pestano, Brantley, Cabrera, Kipnis, Chiz, Santana, maybe McAlister and Carrasco) until the next wave of talent washes up on the shores of Lake Erie. (I'm sure that line has been used before). Next year's task is to trade Choo and Rage for some blue chip prospects while continuing to develop (or cull out) the young players who are breaking in now - Kipnis, Chiz, McAlister, Gomez, Kluber, Cody Allen, maybe Fedroff or Carerra.

I don't see the point in blowing it up. Try to keep the young core together while bringing along the next wave as quickly as possible. However, that probably means having to continue to sign placeholders like Kotchman, Hannahan, and Duncan/Damon, at least for the next couple of years.

by **GeronimoSon** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:44 am

Prosecutor wrote:If you missed it, here's a long and detailed column in which the writer makes a case that the Indians are drafting much, much better since Grant took over for Mirabelli as Director of Amateur Scouting in late 2008.

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/clevelan ... azy-sunday

I think he might be overly optimistic about some of the farm hands he mentions, but it does seem the drafting has improved under Grant and the talent on the major league team will gradually improve as the draft picks from the last four years bubble to the surface.

Unfortunately, it's a race to keep the decent youngish players we have (Pestano, Brantley, Cabrera, Kipnis, Chiz, Santana, maybe McAlister and Carrasco) until the next wave of talent washes up on the shores of Lake Erie. (I'm sure that line has been used before). Next year's task is to trade Choo and Rage for some blue chip prospects while continuing to develop (or cull out) the young players who are breaking in now - Kipnis, Chiz, McAlister, Gomez, Kluber, Cody Allen, maybe Fedroff or Carerra.

I don't see the point in blowing it up. Try to keep the young core together while bringing along the next wave as quickly as possible. However, that probably means having to continue to sign placeholders like Kotchman, Hannahan, and Duncan/Damon, at least for the next couple of years.

+1.. Nice read.. The drafting and development of talent has many obstacles, the most demanding of which is time. In the "instant success" requirement world we live in, this doesn't play well...and leads to all too familiar demand, egged on by idiots who should know better, to fire someone, blow it up.. etc..

Alas, the quoted subject of this posting is the draft choices/IFA Signings.. In this area, there are a number of players that have at least some potential to impact the ML roster at some future point. They include, but are not limited to:

-Francisco Lindor (IF-SS)
-Luigi Rodriquez (OF-CF)
-Scott Barnes (SP-LH)
-Dorsyss Paulino (IF-SS)
-Ronnie Rodriquez (IF-SS)
-Bryson Myles (OF-LF)
-Dillon Howard (SP-RH)
-Jesus Aguilar (IF-1B)
-Eric Haase (C)
-Tyler Naquin (OF-CF)
-Elvis Araujo (SP-LH)
-Chun-hsui Chen (1B/C)
-Austin Adams (SP-RH)
-Felix Sterling (SP-RH)
-Chen Lee (RP-RH)
-D'vone McClure (OF-CF)
-Tony Wolters (IF-2B)

This group is a bit unbalanced toward position players. Normally, it would be expected that more than half of the "upper echelon" draftees be pitchers. In the Indians system.. it's closer to one third.. This, it seems is the biggest weakness going forward into the 2013 season and beyond...

by **ironmike** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:37 pm

I don't buy the BS on these prospects, been hearing this for ages.

How do we know how capable Brad Grant is? We don't. How do we know how our scouts measure up versus their peers? We don't.

All of this is pure propoganda.

Dolan and Shapiro are not smart enough to hire the necessary baseball people to turn this around.

by **JP_Frost** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:07 pm

ironmike wrote:I don't buy the BS on these prospects, been hearing this for ages.

How do we know how capable Brad Grant is? We don't. How do we know how our scouts measure up versus their peers? We don't.

All of this is pure propoganda.

Dolan and Shapiro are not smart enough to hire the necessary baseball people to turn this around.

So because you don't know, you assume they suck?

My god, you must be one of the most boneheaded posters to "grace" this forum.

by **Edible14** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:09 pm

Jason Kipnis, by himself, pretty much eclipses everything that the Indians drafted 2002-2007. This, in and of itself, is a positive trend. Pestano is also a pretty darn good find. Anything positive that happens with Pom, White and Chisenhall will only add to those quick successes. Not every draft pick is going to turn out a success - nobody has that good of a track record - but it's clearly already getting better. The big criticism I've seen is taking Naquin (who it's way too early to tell on) and taking Pomeranz instead of Sale. I said before that I think Denver has a little bit to do with Pom and White struggling, but we'll see how they develop. They're both still young.

Of all the things that might need changing here, I think the draft is one of the last ones.

by **Rocky55** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:29 pm

Prosecutor wrote:If you missed it, here's a long and detailed column in which the writer makes a case that the Indians are drafting much, much better since Grant took over for Mirabelli as Director of Amateur Scouting in late 2008.

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/clevelan ... azy-sunday

I think he might be overly optimistic about some of the farm hands he mentions, but it does seem the drafting has improved under Grant and the talent on the major league team will gradually improve as the draft picks from the last four years bubble to the surface.

Unfortunately, it's a race to keep the decent youngish players we have (Pestano, Brantley, Cabrera, Kipnis, Chiz, Santana, maybe McAlister and Carrasco) until the next wave of talent washes up on the shores of Lake Erie. (I'm sure that line has been used before). Next year's task is to trade Choo and Rage for some blue chip prospects while continuing to develop (or cull out) the young players who are breaking in now - Kipnis, Chiz, McAlister, Gomez, Kluber, Cody Allen, maybe Fedroff or Carerra.

I don't see the point in blowing it up. Try to keep the young core together while bringing along the next wave as quickly as possible. However, that probably means having to continue to sign placeholders like Kotchman, Hannahan, and Duncan/Damon, at least for the next couple of years.

This was a nice read with a hopeful slant to it. I love Paulie C for his rabid Tribe fandom but Al C. is more readable due to his avoidance of run on sentences. I attempt to amuse my long suffering spouse on Sunday mornings by trying to read a "Lazy Sunday" sentence aloud in one breath.

The Trey Haley mention was apt. Our highest upside arm, really pretty close to the majors. Given health & some refinement we're in Matt Moore territory as far as arm strength goes in a late inning pen guy. I think they've given up on him starting.

The column was kinda light on the depth of relief specs all through the system. After trading off some of the depth we reloaded in the last two drafts. Jacob Lee & Scott Peoples are kickin in MV & IFA Luis Morel may be joining them in the pen. Cody Penny is thriving at LC & should move fast, as is Enosil Tejada. If Grant Sides in Carolina can get the walks under contol, with his ability to miss bats, he could develop into a late inning ML pen arm as well.

I'm hoping Nick Pasquale's start in LC is a sign of things to come. In AZ we have starters Howard, Baker, Lugo, Lovegrove, Brown & Hamrick. Cody Anderson & Mason Radeke look promising in LC.

Odds are that some/most of these guys won't make it but with that many bullets in your gun you should score some hits.

by **GeronimoSon** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:52 pm

...The Trey Haley mention was apt. Our highest upside arm, really pretty close to the majors. Given health & some refinement we're in Matt Moore territory as far as arm strength goes in a late inning pen guy. I think they've given up on him starting....

While I do not recall who said it, but Trey Haley was comp'd to Clay Buchholz some time ago. It would be a shame if he wasn't given every opportunity to become an SP due to his injury issues (groin and sports hernia). Neither injury was related with his arm.. He has one of the best if not THEE best arm in the Indians minors..

by **indians1** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:18 pm

The problem is that trey haley would be at least 2 years away right now if we make him a starter.

he doesn't have enough innings this year, so he would have to be stretched out next year and the if he was successful, would be ready in 2014.

He would still be only 24, but that is only if no hiccups in his development. The indians have to find a way to start producing elite #1 and #2 pitchers to stabilize the rotation. We have seen the ramifications of not doing so up to this point and depending on ubaldo and masterson as our anchors.

Dillon Howard is a guy that was thought of as fast track guy going in and we see what a disaster he is. We really have no help on the horizon and if haley can help in the rotation within the next few years, that could be huge.

But haley has to show he can repeat his delivery and be consistent over 6 or 7 innings before anybody takes him serious as a starting option.

by **Rocky55** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:14 pm

Haley did go 3 innings with 1 hit & 4 K's on August 16th. They could give him a couple of 4-5 inning stints this year & gradually lengthen him next year. If he looks like he can handle it he may help some(starting) next year. If we don't look to be competitive there's no need to rush him. By '14 he should be ready to start full bore, if they intend to start him. I tend to believe that they mean to keep him in relief. I hope not, but if it's so, he should be up by mid season in '13. If he stays healthy.

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:33 am

Another game..another L...

Pitching: Ubaldo made two mistakes, one to Saunders and one to Eric Thames and they were both crushed.. Saunders first homer of the night hasn't landed yet, so the distance has been estimated.. Otherwise, Ubaldo was "okay". He pitched into the sixth inning, getting 8 k's while surrendering only one walk. Joe Smith and Tony Sipp followed Ubaldo to the hill. Neither were able to hang a zero as the Mariners scored single runs off both pitchers.. Cody Allen was his impressive..after Sipp allowed a triple (got by Michael Brantley) by Eric Thames with one out in the inning, Allen struck out Miguel Olivo and got Trayvon Robinson to ground out to Kipnis at 2B, ending the threat.

-Shelly Duncan <=== should not be playing.. at all.. He's 1 for the road trip with no sign of doing anything but trying to pull/hit one onto the Fifty Yard Line at Century Link Field, two blocks north of Safeco Field. Waiting for the roster expansion date sends the wrong message: we can hold on until then.. He's just lost..

Eric Wedge has the M's playing a pretty good brand of solid fundamental baseball right now..The M's catch the ball about as well as any team in MLB.. IF the hitters the M's have are able to step it up and the young stable of pitching prospects develop, the M's are going to become a team to reckon with in the very near future....

by **Prosecutor** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:03 am

Cody Allen. All I can say is "Wow". So far he's retired 41 major league batters while allowing 6 hits and zero runs. Wow.

I agree the Indians absolutely need to develop front-of-the-rotation starters, since they sure as hell aren't going to trade for any or sign one in FA. As for Haley, he's had injury issues, so maybe they're trying to keep him healthy by pitching him out of the bullpen. But they aren't going anywhere if Masterson is their #1 starter, so they need to draft some elite arms and bring them through the system. Adam Miller, Drew Pomeranz, and Jason Knapp were supposed to be future #1's, but injury and a trade took them all out of the picture.

They really need a hard thrower like Haley or Austin Adams to emerge as a #1, but both those guys have had injury issues which may prevent them from starting.

by **ironmike** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:12 am

No runs again, Hermie.

Your boy Duncan is down to .203 this morning. You'll need to go back to work and manufacture some more numbers from your Ivy League Spreadsheet Starters Kit to tell us why he is still on the team and why he is a valuable piece. I'll give you a clue, you'll only need your eyes to see he ain't got it.

Fixing the offense should be the first thing the Indians do. It will be easier than trying to find impact pitching. The pitching will improve with better hitting, then find ways to add to the pitching. The fix will need to come in stages.

WE need an offense that can score at least 850 runs per season for many reasons, including excitement to win back the fans, sponsors and advertisers.

Over the winter IM proposed Swisher, McCutcheo and other impact bats. Good baseball people can find guys like these on the verge of blossoming. Isn't that how we added Lofton, Vizquel, Sandy Jr, Carlos and others to the pile in the 90's? That is what good baseball people do, those special baseball talent guys who make a difference in player evaluation and acquisition, that is the difference between winning and losing.

The Indians contenting formula:

1. Produce talented position players and pitching to establish a core.

2. Add other key young players to the core via trades

3. Add key free agents when the team is ready to win.

This is not rocket science. A Harvard grad should easily be able to understand. The missing piece? Poor baseball talent evaluation over a 10 year period, including a real bad signing with Hafner who had his best years in the juiced era. One position player in Kipnis, we should have had another 3 or 5 and two of them needed to be All-Star caliber over a 10 year period. Did not happen, big hole to climb out of.

Give the organization a colon cleanse. Flush the toliet and start over. It can be turned over in 3 seasons with a sharp baseball guy in charge, IF the owner knows how to hire one. Don't believe he does.

Let Manny Acta go, he deserves better. A great manager, who will win soon in another organization at the ML level. He was hood winked too.

by **GeronimoSon** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:30 pm

...Ivy League Spreadsheet Starters Kit ...

Hermie, when you get done with the starter kit, can you send it to me.. I'm way too busy gawking at 'Love Travel Agency' near my house.. :rolleyes

WE need an offense that can score at least 850 runs per season for many reasons, including excitement to win back the fans, sponsors and advertisers.

Not one single team will score 850 runs in 2012..not one.. Repeating this as some sort of panacea to what ails the offense is pretty useless.

...Over the winter IM proposed Swisher, McCutcheo and other impact bats...

..and each and everyone of your suggested "impact" bats were not available over the winter.. not a single one.. but, repeating the "go get McCutchen" mantra, over and over should provide you with what you really need.. therapy..

..Lofton, Vizquel, Sandy Jr, Carlos and others to the pile in the 90's?

No, it isn't..but your rewrite of history has now passed from just bad to fictional.. In the case of Lofton, the Astros were in desperate need to find a catcher who would allow them to move Craig Biggio from behind the plate to what became his primary position during his hall of fame career, 2B. Lofton had spent three plus years in the Stros minors in an otherwise 'not going anywhere' career. Lofton was NEVER considered an impact offensive hitter during that time. The Indians sent Ed Taubensee to the Stros knowing full well they had Sandy Alomar Jr as the starting catcher, making Taub expendable. Both Alomar Jr and Carlos Baerga had come to the Indians in the Joe Carter trade and were both consider four star prospects. Omar Vizquel was a slick fielding shortstop that was blocking the emergence of Alex Rodriguez. Sending Felix Fermin to the M's for Vizquel was a move that satisfied the M's need for a 'middle infielder/utility guy' without making the mistake of moving Omar to 2B. These trades were beneficial to all the clubs involved in the trades.. The Indians gave up quality..and received quality.

1. Produce talented position players and pitching to establish a core.

2. Add other key young players to the core via trades

3. Add key free agents when the team is ready to win.

The team is ready to win every game they take the field. They DON' T NEED TO GET READY for some mythical window that the Plain Dull, Akron Beacon Urinal and other media outlets have deemed is the plan based on a twelve year old comment by a new owner.. It's not the plan.. the plan is to contend every game, every year. While not many have the foresight to evaluate what players will become, getting as many 'bullets' into the magazine is what has been and continues to be done...

Comments..

by **Hermie13** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:53 pm

Duncan is not my guy; he's Manny Acta's guy. I simply can understand somewhat why Acta likes him. Aside from him supposively being a great clubhouse guy, he has provided some value with the bat. And it doesn't take ivy league stats counting to see it.

In 37 starts against a left-hander, Duncan has hit 8 HRs and has an .800 OPS. The Indians have been awful against left-handed starters....I don't see a benefit of cutting Duncan there. Duncan was solid in July when only twice did he start more than a day in a row. He's been God awful in August when he's been forced into everyday duties. Duncan has already started more games in August than he did all of July.

Duncan the bench player/platoon guy is someone who can help a team, even one trying to contend. Duncan the everyday starter? Yeah, not so much. I won't be heartbroken if the Indians move on from Duncan this winter (will be arby eligible). But he is far from a problem for the Indians. Much bigger issues than needing to fix the bench.

by **GoTribe028** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:58 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Cody Allen. All I can say is "Wow". So far he's retired 41 major league batters while allowing 6 hits and zero runs. Wow.

I agree the Indians absolutely need to develop front-of-the-rotation starters, since they sure as hell aren't going to trade for any or sign one in FA. As for Haley, he's had injury issues, so maybe they're trying to keep him healthy by pitching him out of the bullpen. But they aren't going anywhere if Masterson is their #1 starter, so they need to draft some elite arms and bring them through the system. Adam Miller, Drew Pomeranz, and Jason Knapp were supposed to be future #1's, but injury and a trade took them all out of the picture.

They really need a hard thrower like Haley or Austin Adams to emerge as a #1, but both those guys have had injury issues which may prevent them from starting.

Maybe it's just me, but I am excited for the potential crop of young guns the Indians have stockpiled in kids like Dillon Howard, Mitchell Brown, Dylan Baker, Keiran Lovegrove, Jake Sisco, and even Robbie Aviles. No way the Indians hit on everyone, that goes without saying. I just feel better about the pitching in the lower levels than I have in some time, and this is how the Indians will find their starters of the future.

Not saying any of those guys are gonna be an "ace" (frankly I feel that term is used a little too much) but if you hit on a couple out of this group and get a couple workhorse #2/3 types, that goes a long, long way. Like you mentioned, injury and/or trades will thin out the herd. Others will slide into bullpen roles.

I know Haley has had his troubles staying healthy, but I do wonder if the Indians will try to see if he can start next season. Just has such a great arm, but I could easily see him becoming Daniel Bard. Wild & innefective. Just with so many possible bullpen arms in the system still I would understand if the Indians brass decide on one final try.

by **Hermie13** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:04 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Cody Allen. All I can say is "Wow". So far he's retired 41 major league batters while allowing 6 hits and zero runs. Wow.

I agree the Indians absolutely need to develop front-of-the-rotation starters, since they sure as hell aren't going to trade for any or sign one in FA. As for Haley, he's had injury issues, so maybe they're trying to keep him healthy by pitching him out of the bullpen. But they aren't going anywhere if Masterson is their #1 starter, so they need to draft some elite arms and bring them through the system. Adam Miller, Drew Pomeranz, and Jason Knapp were supposed to be future #1's, but injury and a trade took them all out of the picture.

They really need a hard thrower like Haley or Austin Adams to emerge as a #1, but both those guys have had injury issues which may prevent them from starting.

Maybe it's just me, but I am excited for the potential crop of young guns the Indians have stockpiled in kids like Dillon Howard, Mitchell Brown, Dylan Baker, Keiran Lovegrove, Jake Sisco, and even Robbie Aviles. No way the Indians hit on everyone, that goes without saying. I just feel better about the pitching in the lower levels than I have in some time, and this is how the Indians will find their starters of the future.

Not saying any of those guys are gonna be an "ace" (frankly I feel that term is used a little too much) but if you hit on a couple out of this group and get a couple workhorse #2/3 types, that goes a long, long way. Like you mentioned, injury and/or trades will thin out the herd. Others will slide into bullpen roles.

I know Haley has had his troubles staying healthy, but I do wonder if the Indians will try to see if he can start next season. Just has such a great arm, but I could easily see him becoming Daniel Bard. Wild & innefective. Just with so many possible bullpen arms in the system still I would understand if the Indians brass decide on one final try.

I could see Haley becoming a Daniel Bard...but to me that just means he's a bullpen arm. I still think Bard belongs in the pen, and it seems there are many others that do too. I have no issue with maybe trying to stretch out Haley as a starter some but there were many scouts that felt he was a bullpen guy when he was in the draft. I don't recall any Bucholtz comps (though not saying there weren't), but I do recall the Cards reportedly showing some interest in Haley with the comps being to Chris Perez (who I believe was a supp round pick?). Haley got a large bonus for a reliever, so always hoped he could start (and sure the Indians did as well), but I still think pen is his destination.

I agree the Indians have a nice stable of young arms for the pen. Think it really raises the question on Pestano and if the Tribe should look hard at dealing him this winter. Value would have to be pretty damn high, higher than even Perez. Would you risk going with Allen in the 8th next year? Has been great to this point but sample is limited.

by **GoTribe028** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:21 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Cody Allen. All I can say is "Wow". So far he's retired 41 major league batters while allowing 6 hits and zero runs. Wow.

I agree the Indians absolutely need to develop front-of-the-rotation starters, since they sure as hell aren't going to trade for any or sign one in FA. As for Haley, he's had injury issues, so maybe they're trying to keep him healthy by pitching him out of the bullpen. But they aren't going anywhere if Masterson is their #1 starter, so they need to draft some elite arms and bring them through the system. Adam Miller, Drew Pomeranz, and Jason Knapp were supposed to be future #1's, but injury and a trade took them all out of the picture.

They really need a hard thrower like Haley or Austin Adams to emerge as a #1, but both those guys have had injury issues which may prevent them from starting.

Maybe it's just me, but I am excited for the potential crop of young guns the Indians have stockpiled in kids like Dillon Howard, Mitchell Brown, Dylan Baker, Keiran Lovegrove, Jake Sisco, and even Robbie Aviles. No way the Indians hit on everyone, that goes without saying. I just feel better about the pitching in the lower levels than I have in some time, and this is how the Indians will find their starters of the future.

Not saying any of those guys are gonna be an "ace" (frankly I feel that term is used a little too much) but if you hit on a couple out of this group and get a couple workhorse #2/3 types, that goes a long, long way. Like you mentioned, injury and/or trades will thin out the herd. Others will slide into bullpen roles.

I know Haley has had his troubles staying healthy, but I do wonder if the Indians will try to see if he can start next season. Just has such a great arm, but I could easily see him becoming Daniel Bard. Wild & innefective. Just with so many possible bullpen arms in the system still I would understand if the Indians brass decide on one final try.

I could see Haley becoming a Daniel Bard...but to me that just means he's a bullpen arm. I still think Bard belongs in the pen, and it seems there are many others that do too. I have no issue with maybe trying to stretch out Haley as a starter some but there were many scouts that felt he was a bullpen guy when he was in the draft. I don't recall any Bucholtz comps (though not saying there weren't), but I do recall the Cards reportedly showing some interest in Haley with the comps being to Chris Perez (who I believe was a supp round pick?). Haley got a large bonus for a reliever, so always hoped he could start (and sure the Indians did as well), but I still think pen is his destination.

I agree the Indians have a nice stable of young arms for the pen. Think it really raises the question on Pestano and if the Tribe should look hard at dealing him this winter. Value would have to be pretty damn high, higher than even Perez. Would you risk going with Allen in the 8th next year? Has been great to this point but sample is limited.

I don't think you can go into next year dealing Pestano but not Perez. I can support moving Perez ($$$) and allowing Pestano to claim the closers role. Pestano could bring more to the team, but Perez will become a luxury on a $ strapped team. Pestano's pressense allows the Indians to explore moving Perez in the winter (or in 2013 even) but it's still a question just how much other teams will in fact value a reliever making 7-9 million (at least per #'s I keep reading regarding CP's arbitration).

I wouldn't be too worried about the 8th inning long term. I still feel Nick Hagadone can be special in the pen, and Cody Allen sure does look good right now and long term.

EDIT: One name that just keeps sticking out to me: Danny Salazar. I try to temper expectations for pitchers that have smaller frames and already had some arm issues, but he's impressed me this season. Seeing how he's on the 40 man, is he likely to be shifted to a pen role or does anyone else feel they should let him keep starting going forward?

by **Hermie13** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:57 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:I don't think you can go into next year dealing Pestano but not Perez. I can support moving Perez ($$$) and allowing Pestano to claim the closers role. Pestano could bring more to the team, but Perez will become a luxury on a $ strapped team. Pestano's pressense allows the Indians to explore moving Perez in the winter (or in 2013 even) but it's still a question just how much other teams will in fact value a reliever making 7-9 million (at least per #'s I keep reading regarding CP's arbitration).

I wouldn't be too worried about the 8th inning long term. I still feel Nick Hagadone can be special in the pen, and Cody Allen sure does look good right now and long term.

EDIT: One name that just keeps sticking out to me: Danny Salazar. I try to temper expectations for pitchers that have smaller frames and already had some arm issues, but he's impressed me this season. Seeing how he's on the 40 man, is he likely to be shifted to a pen role or does anyone else feel they should let him keep starting going forward?

I wasn't necessarily suggesting moving Pestano but not Perez. Personally I'd move Perez first (not as good, will make 15 times more). However, like you hinted at, I'm not sure there will be a big market for Perez. Tribe could decide to move both if they wanted too (could find a stop-gap 1year closer potentially). Again, wasn't saying I wanted to move Pestano, but think it's soemthing the Tribe could consider this winter. Doesn't hurt to at least gauge his trade value this winter.

Personally would prefer to keep Pestano (for multiple reasons) and try and sign him to a 3 or 4 year extension, similar to what the Indians did with Raffy Betancourt. Overpay him a bit in 2013 for being a non-arby guy and potentially not even a closer, but could ultimately save yourself millions once he does become the closer. A risk for the Tribe if he were to for whatever reason fail as a closer or worse, get severely injured...but a gamble I think is worth looking into.

I agree, not too worried about the 8th inning long-term. The 1st thru 7th innings though....

by **Hermie13** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:29 pm

Some injury updates....

Tomlin will be having Tommy John surgery tomorrow. Sucks, but second time in two years his season has ended cause of elbow issues. Rest clearly wasn't going to cut it anymore. Hopefully he can come back and help out.

Sizemore's season is over according to Hoynes.

On the bright side sounds like Chisenhall could see some MLB action still this year. Don't want him rushed back to quickly but really hoping he can see some time, even if it's only as a DH.

by **martyinnewyork** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:03 pm

For as much as Grady helped this year, I'd have rather had them bring back Rocky Colavito...

by **ironmike** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:59 am

Again, we scored 1 run.

Starting pitching for this game was adequate.

Can't win without offense in A.L.

by **daingean** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:39 am

I don't think there is much of a coincidence that this team's August slump coincides with the lack of acquiring help at the trade deadline. I know these guys are professionals but it has to be a bit deflating when your FO doesn't give you a vote of confidence.

by **martyinnewyork** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:16 am

EXACTLY!!!

by **Hermie13** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:18 pm

ironmike wrote:Again, we scored 1 run.

Starting pitching for this game was adequate.

Can't win without offense in A.L.

ha, you know there is a huge problem with the pitching when you say that your starter giving up 4 runs in 6 innings is adequate and you give up 5 runs overall. The starter posted an ERA of 6 yesterday....suppose that's adequate for Carmona considering it was his 2nd start back but pitching is still the biggest issue with this team. Offense is a close 2nd though.

Rays win without offense in the AL all the time. Pitching is the name of the game (Acta's own words). AL/NL...doesn't matter. Without PEDs being prevelant pitching and defense are keys to winning in the AL, not just offense.

by **GeronimoSon** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:22 pm

daingean wrote:I don't think there is much of a coincidence that this team's August slump coincides with the lack of acquiring help at the trade deadline. I know these guys are professionals but it has to be a bit deflating when your FO doesn't give you a vote of confidence.

Not much help was to be had at the deadline..at least nothing that would be 'earth shattering'.. As far as the vote of confidence goes.. that says a lot and nothing, at the same time.. Nothing in as much as if there isn't a partner to dance with, then all you're doing is shaking or having a fit on the dance floor, alone.. A lot says that by NOT making a DUMB trade, the guys who are here are the ones who have to make the steps forward.. Making a deal so that you can show that you made a deal is a fools errand...

Here is a summary of the trade deadline deals:

— Casey McGeehe to Yankees. New York improves its third-base depth, dealing for the veteran infielder from the Pirates.

Does anyone really think Casey McGeHee is the answer to what ails you?..

— Dempster to Rangers. Texas acquires veteran righthander just before the trade deadline.

Has been horrible since the trade

— Jonathan Broxton to Reds. Cincinnati has traded for the veteran Kansas City Royals reliever.

— Gaby Sanchez to Pirates. Pittsburgh has agreed to acquire the first baseman Gaby Sanchez from the Miami Marlins

See McGeHee comments.. they are the same player.. and it's no coincidence that the Pirates have gone into a tailspin..

— Craig Breslow to Red Sox. Boston has acquired the lethanded reliever from the Arizona Diamondbacks in exchange for outfielder Scott Podsednik and reliever Matt Albers.

— Edward Mujica to Cardinals. St. Louis acquires reliever Edward Mujica from the Marlins in exchange for minor league third baseman Zack Cox.

— Hunter Pence to Giants. San Francisco has acquired the right fielder from the Philadelphia Phillies

While the Pence trade is clear, the price tag may be considered waaaaaaaaay past a vote of confidence or whatever you're referencing there.

— Shane Victorino to Dodgers. Los Angeles continues to deal, landing the Phillies' veteran outfielder in exhange for reliever Josh Lindblom and minor league righthander Ethan Martin.

Has done no more than Ezequiel Carrera since his call up by the Indians. Another "deadline deal" that gets more ink than performance.

— Brandon League to Dodgers. For the second time in a week, Los Angeles has made a trade that could have big implications on the National League playoff race over the final two months, acquiring right-handed reliever League from the Seattle Mariners late Monday night.

— Pittsburgh Pirates, Toronto Blue Jays complete deal. The Pirates have traded pitcher Brad Lincoln to the Blue Jays for outfielder Travis Snider.

Another low impact trade that hasn't worked out for NH and the Pirates.. and it's getting worse...

Making a comment... the FO needs to make a trade to show some "etherial" or mystic support is just that. a myth. The Indians didn't make a trade because they didn't have a dance partner that was willing to send an impact player at that time. There were just too many clubs with the potential to be in the thick of at least the wild card race to send away an impact player. Of course, we can always use RustyMike's approach and claim the Indians should score 850 runs and get McCutchen again.. because that makes sooo much sense... :rolleyes

by **GeronimoSon** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:23 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
ironmike wrote:Again, we scored 1 run.

Starting pitching for this game was adequate.

Can't win without offense in A.L.

ha, you know there is a huge problem with the pitching when you say that your starter giving up 4 runs in 6 innings is adequate and you give up 5 runs overall. The starter posted an ERA of 6 yesterday....suppose that's adequate for Carmona considering it was his 2nd start back but pitching is still the biggest issue with this team. Offense is a close 2nd though.

Rays win without offense in the AL all the time. Pitching is the name of the game (Acta's own words). AL/NL...doesn't matter. Without PEDs being prevelant pitching and defense are keys to winning in the AL, not just offense.

As you've alluded to.. you need both.. But if you had a choice between the two.. you'd take pitching and defense over hitting.

by **Hermie13** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:25 pm

daingean wrote:I don't think there is much of a coincidence that this team's August slump coincides with the lack of acquiring help at the trade deadline. I know these guys are professionals but it has to be a bit deflating when your FO doesn't give you a vote of confidence.

Considering the slide started before the deadline I'm not too sure on this. The Indians went into Minnestoa and got swept by (at the time) the worst team in the American League (and it was pretty ugly). The players didn't give the Front Office a vote of confidence with their play to give them any reason to make a move. When you're pitching is as bad as the Tribe's, you can't blame the front office for not making a move. Can maybe blame the FO for not getting more pitching over the winter (would agree somewhat there), but honestly the play of the team forced the hand of the FO.

by **Hermie13** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:59 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:It might be time to move Brantley back to leadoff. He's swinging the bat better than anyone right now. Kipnis has hit the wall - he's no longer even an average hitter. Zeke is a good minor league ballplayer until he proves otherwise.

I wouldn't mind seeing Choo moved back to the lead off spot as well..

I'm with GSon here on Choo and the leadoff spot. Would rather see Choo moved back there. Been struggling but still draws more walks than Brantley. Sure he has more power but not like he's a true power hitter. Choo was at his best in the leadoff spot, put him back.

And Brantley....he has been having a very good season, but outside of July (and some of June) hasn't shown the consistent ability to draw enough walks to be a leadoff hitter IMO. Only 6 dating back to the Detroit series at the end of July (we're talking 6 walks in 4 weeks from an everyday starter). Brantley is still hitting over .280 in that span with 25 hits in 25 games. Personally...I think he's developing into a solid 3-hole hitter. Doesn't have quite the power you'd ideally want (though think he could still develop more), but he's on pace for 180 hits this year as a 25-year old. Baerga was a very good 3-hole hitter yet struggled with walks. Don't need the 3-hole guy to be a big walk guy. Drive in the first two, get on base for the cleanup hitter....sounds like Brantley who is still one of our best hitters with men on base (hitting over .300).

Kipnis did well for a while in the 3-hole but may be time to give him some time down in the 5-spot, take a little pressure off and get him going.

Curious if I'm the only one thinking Brantley in the 3-hole makes sense....

Choo, Cabrear, Brantley....3 guys that in theory are capabable of stealing 15-20+ bases and hit for decent averages/decent OBPs. Seems like some ideal guys to have in front of Santana and Kipnis...

by **daingean** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:53 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
daingean wrote:I don't think there is much of a coincidence that this team's August slump coincides with the lack of acquiring help at the trade deadline. I know these guys are professionals but it has to be a bit deflating when your FO doesn't give you a vote of confidence.

Considering the slide started before the deadline I'm not too sure on this. The Indians went into Minnestoa and got swept by (at the time) the worst team in the American League (and it was pretty ugly). The players didn't give the Front Office a vote of confidence with their play to give them any reason to make a move. When you're pitching is as bad as the Tribe's, you can't blame the front office for not making a move. Can maybe blame the FO for not getting more pitching over the winter (would agree somewhat there), but honestly the play of the team forced the hand of the FO.

At the end of July, we had just taken a series from Detroit and dropped a series to Minnesota. While that Twins series did technically start the slump, we have gone into a very serious August swoon. Every team loses a few games here and there. But I think the lack of a move really hurt this team's psyche.

I know it takes a dance partner and maybe there were none to be had but combine no trades (I don't consider Lars Anderson a ML trade) and nothing really this past offseason has really led this team to squander and opportunity. I said from day 1 that I hated the Kotchman acquisition because I knew he was a slug (stats lie sometimes and my eyes watching the guy spoke volumes). I was wrong on Lowe as I thought he'd at least be serviceable. But come on if you think that Kotchman, Lowe, Lopez and Slowey (add in Ray and Wheeler too) were really trying to improve this team. I was not crying for an impact bat but a good complementary piece (anything better than Lopez, Duncan, and Cunningham).

I also think the game has changed somewhat and the back half of the bullpen is more cruicial to winning than a #4 or #5 starter. That back half is what kept the Indians in ball games. Now that said I would entertain moving C.Perez for a good piece.

by **ironmike** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:45 pm

Hermie, another one run game.

by **Bearcatbob** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:07 pm

ironmike wrote:Hermie, another one run game.

As in one run scored? Sad to say - without Hafner this lineup is absolutely pitiful.

by **indians1** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:09 pm

The indians were in prime position to trade choo, perez, and masterson. They could have got a good haul and probably could have received really good AA or AAA players ready to play in the majors in the next year or 2.

If the indians think they would have taken a PR hit for selling off again, what real benefit did they get from keeping those guys now.

This team has no chance of competing next year. no chance at all. Not with the pitching that they have. Nobody in AA or AAA that can help the pitching. At least last year, there was hope before the ubaldo trade. You had jason kipnis and lonnie chisenhall making their debuts and pomeranz and alex white with alot of potential.

1 year later, you have nothing.

The indians have to rebuild. Their "window of contention" was misguided and they overvalued what they had here last year and this year.

this season is finishing off as bad as can be. The indians will have the #2 pick in next year's draft. The only team that will be worse is houston. I think the indians will fall behind colorado and chicago. They will definitely finish last in the division this year which should do wonders for ticket sales next year.

by **timdav** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:32 pm

A pretty significant rebuild ASAP is needed...the previous poster is absolutely correct, IMHO.

I've heard the Indians feel they can simply "re-tool". Huh????

Doing that is very likely doomed to failure, or at the very best no better than a .500 team. What's the point of doing THAT? It sure won't win a World Series ring. So, why not bite the bullet and do it right?

Oh, and...while you're doing it right...why keep the same old key decision makers who have this organization in the sorry state it's in today?

Ahh...That's right: it's the manager and coaches fault. Let's blame them. That'll fix it! (sic).

Since 1960, this team/organization has had about 6 good seasons. In 52 YEARS. Wow!

Does it seem some of us are awfully negative? Well, maybe really frustrated is more accurate. We only want to see our Tribe win.

by **danh8** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:04 am

The Dolan's, Shapiro, and Antonetti are running the Indians incredibly well, they gave just had a little run of misfortune is all. For having worked so hard, and endured all this misfortune they deserve promotions, salary increases, and even more job security.

by **ironmike** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:25 am

Here's a player the Indians should make a PRIORITY to acquire in the off-season, an intelligent baseball savvy GM would give up just about any combination of current players we have and throw in Hermie and Geronimo to get him ...

BILLY HAMILTON - SS

148 stolen bases, and a BB to K = 80 /101, plus a high batting average

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... milt002bil

He is and will be an IMPACT player.

More suggestions coming, this team needs to be completely rebuilt, starting with position players.

by **Prosecutor** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:26 am

Three of our top five prospects are shortstops and we're supposed to give up whatever the Reds want to get Billy Hamilton?

This team needs starting pitching above all. The bullpen is solid, the farm system is loaded with relievers and there is a solid core of position players with Santana, Kipnis, Cabrera, Chiz, and Brantley.

They need to trade Choo and Chris Perez for a 2-3 blue chip prospects and draft a future #1 starter with their high pick next year. Then wait for the talent in the lower levels to bubble to the top.

by **GeronimoSon** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:27 am

ironmike wrote:Here's a player the Indians should make a PRIORITY to acquire in the off-season, an intelligent baseball savvy GM would give up just about any combination of current players we have and throw in Hermie and Geronimo to get him ...

BILLY HAMILTON - SS

148 stolen bases, and a BB to K = 80 /101, plus a high batting average

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... milt002bil

He is and will be an IMPACT player.

More suggestions coming, this team needs to be completely rebuilt, starting with position players.

+1

Billy Hamilton is clearly an impact player with his best tool being his speed.. After speed, he doesn't run out of upside worthy other attributes. He provides an odd combination or enigma of having the range to be a slick fielding SS without the quick hands. He lacks the strong/accurate arm for the spot as well. It has been speculated that his best defensive position will eventually be as a center fielder where he can use his speed/range while not relying on his arm.. He has been much smoother from the right side of the plate than the left as he was recently converted to being a switch hitter. He is patient at the plate with the ability to take as many walks as he strikes out and almost invariably turns a walk into a double with his prodigious stolen base ability. He's still very young (21 in AA). He has a projected ETA in the ML's in 2014 The Reds have Drew Stubbs in CF, Zach Cozart at SS and Brandon Phillips at 2B, so, his best chance to make a spot on the Reds ML roster would appear to be blocked, thereby making him more available than what might otherwise be considered. The Reds might be inclined to move Stubbs to a corner spot (with the projected departure of Ryan Ludwick after the 2012 season) to allow Billy Hamilton the chance to start in CF as a September call up candidate in late 2013.

As far as what the Indians can offer for Hamilton is open to debate. The only real weakness in the Reds lineup is 1B and perhaps back of the bullpen help. It would not be beyond the scope of reason to think a player such as Vinnie Pestano (who I'd hate to lose) for Billy Hamilton trade being acceptable to both parties...

by **GeronimoSon** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:34 am

Prosecutor wrote:Three of our top five prospects are shortstops and we're supposed to give up whatever the Reds want to get Billy Hamilton?

This team Note One: needs starting pitching above all. The bullpen is solid, the farm system is loaded with relievers and there is a solid core of position players with Santana, Kipnis, Cabrera, Chiz, and Brantley.

They need to trade Choo and Chris Perez Note Two: for a 2-3 blue chip prospects and draft a future #1 starter with their high pick next year. Then wait for the talent in the lower levels to bubble to the top.

Note 1: No doubt about it.. the number one priority for the Indians is and remains a front of the rotation, ace of the staff, starting pitcher..

Note Two: What IronMike has presented in this posting is one blue chip prospect (without identifying who should be sent / traded away). The target, in this case, Billy Hamilton fills a significant need for a top of the lineup disruptive force and impact OBP skilled hitter.

by **ironmike** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:42 pm

Front of the rotation ace pitcher for the Indians becomes close to a .500 pitcher with no offense support. We had two ace pitchers and gave them away for less value than they should have commanded because of poor talent evaluation.

Fix the offense, load up, it will make all middle of the road pitchers better. Besides, the Indians could not afford or keep a No. 1 ace pitcher. Who is going to trade one?

We need at least four more good quality position players, that in itself will be a difficult task, especially with the issues the organization currently has.

by **GeronimoSon** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:04 pm

The two ace pitchers weren't given away.. that's just so wrong..

-CC was going to become a free agent in to just over two months.. He was leaving, PERIOD.. As far as the player received for him.. sure.. two plus month rentals typically don't bring four top of the rotation, can't miss ace type SP's from other clubs' minor leagues..IT just doesn't happen...

-Cliff Lee made it very clear early on that he was going to become a free agent and nothing would change his mind about that (and NOTHING DID).. The Indians could have waited another half year or year and gotten the two month rental return like they did with CC.. but they chose to gamble on a 6'5" fire balling FOR prospect along with a solid # 2/# 3 type SP in Carlos Carrasco and two position players: a solid soon to be their starting 3B utilty guy in Jason Donald along with their best catching prospect.. A pretty damn good haul considering the predicament and who was available..

Both trades (Caveat: provided the players didn't get injured or just fell off the face of the earth), at the time of the trades.. looked like 'can't lose' deals for the Indians.. The Lee trade still has a chance to be okay.. the CC trade has netted one of the Indians most consistent starting OF'ers.

Of course, hindsight being what it is.. criticism can be heaped whenever one of the above listed caveats are breached...and that's where we are today...

by **daingean** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:19 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:The two ace pitchers weren't given away.. that's just so wrong..

-CC was going to become a free agent in to just over two months.. He was leaving, PERIOD.. As far as the player received for him.. sure.. two plus month rentals typically don't bring four top of the rotation, can't miss ace type SP's from other clubs' minor leagues..IT just doesn't happen...

-Cliff Lee made it very clear early on that he was going to become a free agent and nothing would change his mind about that (and NOTHING DID).. The Indians could have waited another half year or year and gotten the two month rental return like they did with CC.. but they chose to gamble on a 6'5" fire balling FOR prospect along with a solid # 2/# 3 type SP in Carlos Carrasco and two position players: a solid soon to be their starting 3B utilty guy in Jason Donald along with their best catching prospect.. A pretty damn good haul considering the predicament and who was available..

Both trades (Caveat: provided the players didn't get injured or just fell off the face of the earth), at the time of the trades.. looked like 'can't lose' deals for the Indians.. The Lee trade still has a chance to be okay.. the CC trade has netted one of the Indians most consistent starting OF'ers.

Of course, hindsight being what it is.. criticism can be heaped whenever one of the above listed caveats are breached...and that's where we are today...

Both trades (IMO) were screwed up by Shapiro. He jumped on the CC trade early when the Dodgers were also in it. I think he could have and should have gotten more by being patient.

The Lee trade was for an already injured Knapp. Sure it was thought he had a bicep injury but in truth it was a shoulder and shoulder injuries kill pitching prospects. I'm not saying the Phillies deceived us because I think they really thought it was a bicep injury. A physical should have been demanded prior to sealing the deal. The C.Lee and V-Mart deals really were necessitated because the team was losing money after not contending when they spent to contend.

Those trades were bad but you have to also consider his good trades (i.e. Asdrubal, Choo, Sizemore/Lee, McCallister). Every GM makes good trades and bad trades. The problem about bitching here is that Shapiro isn't the GM any longer. CA is the GM.

by **ironmike** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:45 pm

Geronimo, you really don't get it. We had Sabathia, Lee and Westbrook. Today we have one of the the worst starting pitching groups in all of baseball.

It's all about results, throw out all the keyboard diarrhea. Attendance is down, advertisers are bailing, supporting FRONT OFFICE & MARKETING people are preparing to bail out because the can't sell the team to the public and corporate sector, sponsors / partners are pulling out or asking for big dollar discounts and the fans can't be fooled anymore.

Minority investors? Why would any investor invest in this mess when they will be able to buy the team in the near future. Dolan will keep the same business model, he's stubborn and doesn't know what to do.

Have you notice how quiet is has been from the Indians executive offices? Wonder why that is? Perhaps we should start a new thread and discuss? Maybe shame?

In the meantime, here is a real goodg thread to start, why the Indians drafted Pomeranz versus Sale. Have Tony investigate and write that story it will provide the real insight to the lack of competence this organization has at the moment.

I don't know what you've been watching or reading but we have regressed.

Have a good day and take some Aricept for you foggy brain.

by **JP_Frost** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:22 pm

Sale was seen as a reliever in the long run due to his arm slot, not everyone thought that mind you, but a lot of scouts did. Supposedly he was amongst the finalists for the Indians pick, but since Pomeranz dropped (once thought of as a consensus top 3 talent), they couldn't pass him up. I guess San Diego, Arizona and Toronto also lack competence for picking worse players.

Hindsight is a manipulative thing, and perhaps you should do some research before speaking out.

Also, alot people complain about dealing Pomeranz and now all of a sudden since the results aren't there he sucks and that's on the Indians FO. Let's not forget that he performed quite well while in our system.

by **daingean** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:39 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Sale was seen as a reliever in the long run due to his arm slot, not everyone thought that mind you, but a lot of scouts did. Supposedly he was amongst the finalists for the Indians pick, but since Pomeranz dropped (once thought of as a consensus top 3 talent), they couldn't pass him up. I guess San Diego, Arizona and Toronto also lack competence for picking worse players.

Hindsight is a manipulative thing, and perhaps you should do some research before speaking out.

Also, alot people complain about dealing Pomeranz and now all of a sudden since the results aren't there he sucks and that's on the Indians FO. Let's not forget that he performed quite well while in our system.

Pomeranz was rushed to the Show by the Rockies....plus he may not be a good fit for Coors field. The long run evaluation was that Pomeranz had a higher ceiling than Sale. It was always thought Sale would make it to the Show earlier than Pom....the true evaluation will be in 5-10 years.

by **Rocky55** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:02 pm

Screw Sale. I wanted to draft Yasmani Grandal, as anyone who was on this board at the time can tell. The heard it over and over and over. Grandal is currently up with the Padres after being traded by the Reds, who drafted him. Grandal's current line:* 28 games, 89 AB, 14 runs, 24 hits, 5 doubles, 1 triple, 5 HR (11XBH/24AB), 10 walks, 15K's, .270/.340/.517, .857OPS, 138 OPS+. This from a 23yr old rookie. I would look to trade for this guy. Call the Padres. Sounds stupid but his numbers at Petco are horrendous. Home OPS of .581 in 14 games. Road OPS of 1.166 in 14 games. Of course the Pads are looking for younger guys too. I wonder what their bullpen situation is like. We have pen arms like the Yankees have $$$.

*Small sample size disclaimer.

by **GeronimoSon** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:19 pm

In that draft.. I liked, in order, Taijuan Walker, Anthony Ranaudo, JOSH Sale, Manny Machado.. Machado was taken by the Orioles ahead of the Indians, but the other three players were there when the Indians picked Pomeranz.. To this day, I still think Taijuan Walker is going to be the best player out of that draft...

RustyMike..give it up.. you're the one who doesn't get it..

by **ironmike** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:16 am

Daingean, Pomerantz was rushed by the Rockies, I beg to differ.

Hell, Sale was pitching in the Ml's two fricking months after he was drafted.

by **ironmike** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:19 am

All I know is at the moment Sale is 13-4 and we certainly could have used him.

Not interested in what other clubs did to pass over him that thinking is for losers. Good baseball people take advantage of these situations. If we have the right baseball talent evaluators we take him, Sale is obviously talented, great arm.

This alone tells me beware of Brad Grant.

by **daingean** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:42 am

ironmike wrote:All I know is at the moment Sale is 13-4 and we certainly could have used him.

Not interested in what other clubs did to pass over him that thinking is for losers. Good baseball people take advantage of these situations. If we have the right baseball talent evaluators we take him, Sale is obviously talented, great arm.

This alone tells me beware of Brad Grant.

personally, I stay away from pitchers with the Inverted-W (flaw) early in the draft. These guys are just too risky to spend a lot of $$$ on. Sale's delivery is a mess and once he develops arm problems (which he will if he remains a starter) it will go down hill for him after that. His delivery has been compared to Anthony Reyes and if you look at pictures you will see it.

by **Rocky55** » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:13 pm

ironmike wrote:Front of the rotation ace pitcher for the Indians becomes close to a .500 pitcher with no offense support. We had two ace pitchers and gave them away for less value than they should have commanded because of poor talent evaluation.

Fix the offense, load up, it will make all middle of the road pitchers better. Besides, the Indians could not afford or keep a No. 1 ace pitcher. Who is going to trade one?

We need at least four more good quality position players, that in itself will be a difficult task, especially with the issues the organization currently has.

ironmike wrote:All I know is at the moment Sale is 13-4 and we certainly could have used him.

Not interested in what other clubs did to pass over him that thinking is for losers. Good baseball people take advantage of these situations. If we have the right baseball talent evaluators we take him, Sale is obviously talented, great arm.

This alone tells me beware of Brad Grant.

Going by the best opinion I know, Sale would have been a .500 pitcher with no offense support. I agree. We should have drafted Grandal. Need some consistecy of message here Sal.

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