MLB trade deadline

[GeronimoSon]

...I do think this winter's free agent OF crop could play well into the Tribe's hands. Maybe it's just me, but i like the group of potential free agents this year a lot better overall than the ones last year. Seems like a much deeper group...

The crop of OF'ers that will become free agents that could be of interest to the Indians may include (with their age) in order of priority:

1. Josh Hamilton (32)
2. B.J. Upton (28)
3. Michael Bourn (30)
4. Melky Cabrera (28)
5. Cody Ross (32)
6. Nick Swisher (32)
7. Angel Pagan (31)

Any one of these seven guys would improve the Indians in 2013 and, save for Josh Hamilton, wouldn't 'break the bank' in terms of annual salary..

The pitchers (starters, only) that will be free agents in 2013 (listed alphabetically) seems to be a LOT better suited for what the Tribe needs:

Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Edwin Jackson (29)
Hiroki Kuroda (38)
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Ervin Santana (30)
Joe Saunders (32)

Some of these guys may have club options with buy outs, so, they may not be free agents.. Any one or two of these guys could represent a significant addition to the Indians chances in 2013..

[GoTribe028]

...I do think this winter's free agent OF crop could play well into the Tribe's hands. Maybe it's just me, but i like the group of potential free agents this year a lot better overall than the ones last year. Seems like a much deeper group...

The crop of OF'ers that will become free agents that could be of interest to the Indians may include (with their age) in order of priority:

1. Josh Hamilton (32)
2. B.J. Upton (28)
3. Michael Bourn (30)
4. Melky Cabrera (28)
5. Cody Ross (32)
6. Nick Swisher (32)
7. Angel Pagan (31)

Any one of these seven guys would improve the Indians in 2013 and, save for Josh Hamilton, wouldn't 'break the bank' in terms of annual salary..

The pitchers (starters, only) that will be free agents in 2013 (listed alphabetically) seems to be a LOT better suited for what the Tribe needs:

Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Edwin Jackson (29)
Hiroki Kuroda (38)
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Ervin Santana (30)
Joe Saunders (32)

Some of these guys may have club options with buy outs, so, they may not be free agents.. Any one or two of these guys could represent a significant addition to the Indians chances in 2013..

I don't see a single one of those players playing for the Indians in 2013.

1. Why would they want to? Yes money talks, but....

2. The Indians obviously have no desire to commit to anything. Except maybe the FO itself.

[Hermie13]

One note is that the Tribe also paid $500K to buy Grady out then signed him for $5mil. Which really makes him cost the Tribe $5.5mil this season. I know it's just and extra $500K but that could be a little extra to sign a FA.

I actually have been taking this into account (not sure if others have). Been including Hafner's $2.75M buyout into next year's payroll as well. Major League minimum is also going up another $20K for next season, which could add another $200K+. Like that extra $500K for Grady it's small and likely not gonna have a big impace (if any) but something to note.

[Hermie13]

The crop of OF'ers that will become free agents that could be of interest to the Indians may include (with their age) in order of priority:

1. Josh Hamilton (32)
2. B.J. Upton (28)
3. Michael Bourn (30)
4. Melky Cabrera (28)
5. Cody Ross (32)
6. Nick Swisher (32)
7. Angel Pagan (31)

Any one of these seven guys would improve the Indians in 2013 and, save for Josh Hamilton, wouldn't 'break the bank' in terms of annual salary..

The pitchers (starters, only) that will be free agents in 2013 (listed alphabetically) seems to be a LOT better suited for what the Tribe needs:

Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Edwin Jackson (29)
Hiroki Kuroda (38)
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Ervin Santana (30)
Joe Saunders (32)

Some of these guys may have club options with buy outs, so, they may not be free agents.. Any one or two of these guys could represent a significant addition to the Indians chances in 2013..

There are other OFers that IMO could interest the Tribe. Shane Victorino is having a down year but has hit lefties very well. Carlos Lee probably wouldn't play OF here but could be thrown into that group. Delmon Young could be a guy to look at (though I'd rather give Duncan the ABs). Guys like Raul Ibanez and Andruw Jones could be options (though again probably more DH). Ichiro is another OF option though no chance on him coming here (still adds to the depth of the position). Torii Hunter is a guy I think the Tribe could look at.

Agree to disagree I guess on the pitching group being a "lot" better suited for the Tribe needs. Think there are definitely some arms out there that do fit but just personally like the OF crop better. Personally would only be happy with about 4 or 5 of those guys you listed at pitcher, and one is Greinke who obviously is not coming here. I'd take any of those outfielders (plus ones I mentioned). Only ones I'd completely write off in that group as no chance are Hamilton and Bourn (for some ungodly reason people think he'll get $16M+...scary). Sure most will not want to come here but don't see any of the others getting so much money that's it's beyond reason for the Tribe to pursue.

One SP you didn't mention though that I do think the Tribe could go after is Jake Westbrook. Has a mutual option which he seems to want to pick up but the Cards could decide to go cheaper (though he's having a very solid year so could be a tough call for them). Tribe had interest re-signing him when he re-upped with the Cards. He's getting older and may only be an NL pitcher at this stage but the familiarity factor leads me to believe if he hits the market that the Tribe will show interest.

[GeronimoSon]

The crop of OF'ers that will become free agents that could be of interest to the Indians may include (with their age) in order of priority:

1. Josh Hamilton (32)
2. B.J. Upton (28)
3. Michael Bourn (30)
4. Melky Cabrera (28)
5. Cody Ross (32)
6. Nick Swisher (32)
7. Angel Pagan (31)

Any one of these seven guys would improve the Indians in 2013 and, save for Josh Hamilton, wouldn't 'break the bank' in terms of annual salary..

The pitchers (starters, only) that will be free agents in 2013 (listed alphabetically) seems to be a LOT better suited for what the Tribe needs:

Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Edwin Jackson (29)
Hiroki Kuroda (38)
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Ervin Santana (30)
Joe Saunders (32)

Some of these guys may have club options with buy outs, so, they may not be free agents.. Any one or two of these guys could represent a significant addition to the Indians chances in 2013..

There are other OFers that IMO could interest the Tribe. Shane Victorino is having a down year but has hit lefties very well. Carlos Lee probably wouldn't play OF here but could be thrown into that group. Delmon Young could be a guy to look at (though I'd rather give Duncan the ABs). Guys like Raul Ibanez and Andruw Jones could be options (though again probably more DH). Ichiro is another OF option though no chance on him coming here (still adds to the depth of the position). Torii Hunter is a guy I think the Tribe could look at.

Agree to disagree I guess on the pitching group being a "lot" better suited for the Tribe needs. Think there are definitely some arms out there that do fit but just personally like the OF crop better. Personally would only be happy with about 4 or 5 of those guys you listed at pitcher, and one is Greinke who obviously is not coming here. I'd take any of those outfielders (plus ones I mentioned). Only ones I'd completely write off in that group as no chance are Hamilton and Bourn (for some ungodly reason people think he'll get $16M+...scary). Sure most will not want to come here but don't see any of the others getting so much money that's it's beyond reason for the Tribe to pursue.

One SP you didn't mention though that I do think the Tribe could go after is Jake Westbrook. Has a mutual option which he seems to want to pick up but the Cards could decide to go cheaper (though he's having a very solid year so could be a tough call for them). Tribe had interest re-signing him when he re-upped with the Cards. He's getting older and may only be an NL pitcher at this stage but the familiarity factor leads me to believe if he hits the market that the Tribe will show interest.

The purpose of the listing was to add a names/faces to the comment made about the "crop" of FA OF'ers. The list provided isn't all encompassing..just a starting point. Jake Westbrook signed a 3 year deal with the Indians and pitched for one. Sentimentality aside, he'd be the next Derek Lowe..

[GhostofTedCox]

Has anyone heard anything as far as landing spots for the players we have DFA'ed?
It would be nice if we could get anything, even money for these players.

[dazindiansfanuk]

Has anyone heard anything as far as landing spots for the players we have DFA'ed?
It would be nice if we could get anything, even money for these players.

Accardo and Damon both released today after clearing waivers.

[Hermie13]

Jake Westbrook signed a 3 year deal with the Indians and pitched for one. Sentimentality aside, he'd be the next Derek Lowe..

hmm, don't see the Lowe comp as he'd be 4 years younger and is having a good year (as opposed to Lowe). Also not a trade.

Definitely could implode like Lowe coming to the AL. Though that could be said about several of the pitchers listed.

Not sure what Westbrook's 3 year deal has to do with anything either. Guthrie signed a 4 year deal with the Indians and made 1 start, yet he makes the list? Guthrie is the guy that seems much more likely to be like Lowe to me. But to each their own.

[Chiefroy]

i think Melky Cabrera's gonna get a huge, multi-year deal from somebody. May as well scratch him from the wish list. Bourn's not gonna come cheap enough either, imho.

[JP_Frost]

i think Melky Cabrera's gonna get a huge, multi-year deal from somebody. May as well scratch him from the wish list. Bourn's not gonna come cheap enough either, imho.

I'd hate to be the team that pays Melky $30M+ over the next 4 or 5 years.

[dazindiansfanuk]

i think Melky Cabrera's gonna get a huge, multi-year deal from somebody. May as well scratch him from the wish list. Bourn's not gonna come cheap enough either, imho.

I'd hate to be the team that pays Melky $30M+ over the next 4 or 5 years.

I agree, but the guy does have more hits than anyone in the game since the start of 2011.... he's gonna get paid.

[GeronimoSon]

i think Melky Cabrera's gonna get a huge, multi-year deal from somebody. May as well scratch him from the wish list. Bourn's not gonna come cheap enough either, imho.

I'd hate to be the team that pays Melky $30M+ over the next 4 or 5 years.

I would be pickled tink if the Indians ponied up the benjamins for the Melk-man.. Would solve the black hole that has become LF for the Indians since forever... 4 years, $ 30 MM.. not a bad plan...

[Hermie13]

i think Melky Cabrera's gonna get a huge, multi-year deal from somebody. May as well scratch him from the wish list. Bourn's not gonna come cheap enough either, imho.

I'd hate to be the team that pays Melky $30M+ over the next 4 or 5 years.

I kinda agree with GSon a bit here. I don't think $30M for Melky is bad at all, and is really a bargain. He only turns 28 tomorrow and as pointed out has the most hits of anyone over the last 2 seasons. Has some power (11 HR in SF is decent). Has speed (20 SBs last year, 12 this year). His walk rate leaves much to be desired (though doesn't stright out a lot which helps balance that out some), but I could easily see him as a bit of a Jose Bautista late bloomer type. There were many that thought the Blue Jays took a big risk and overpaid after Bautista's great breakout season...but now it looks like a bargain. I don't tink it's that crazy to think the Melky we've seen the last 2 years is the one we'll see for the next 4 years...which would only make him 31 for most of the last year of such a deal. Don't think he'll hit .350 again but if he simply hits like he did in KC (4+ WAR, 18 HRs, 20 SBs) he's still an All-Star caliber player. Though do think you need to be a bit cautious in what you give him. Alex Rios comes to mind as well.


Agree Chief, Melky is gonna get paid and paid well, don't see him as a realisitc option for the Indians. Same with Bourn and Hamilton. But the fact that these guys should be available IMO would help the Tribe possibly get a lesser OF signed (again if they decide to go that route). Still leaves a solid crop of players that I think the Tribe could have a shot at getting.

[homerawayfromhome]

There are a few names on that list that could be real options... Cody Ross will carry a bit more of a price tag than I would like but I think he could be a real option. He'd provide a RH bat and is a corner OF too.

I'm not so sure this team is active in the FA market much at all. Probably just a few buy low types and an enormous amount of roster fodder again, sadly. But we could see the Tribe make several trades to fill holes by way of trading Choo, CPerez, RPerez, JSmith, Hannahan and maybe Masterson (doubtful). This is where I expect the Tribe to make some moves.

The simple fact is the turn stiles have not been turning, and I just don't see the Dolans putting money in, unless it comes in.

[JP_Frost]

Melky Cabrera has a .753 career OPS (.329 wOBA) and plays average to slightly below-average defense in LF. That's a guy you'd pay $7M-$8M per year? He also doesn't look like someone who will age well with his body type.

I dunno. I'd rather not the Indians go after him, especially after this prototypical career year.

[GeronimoSon]

Melky Cabrera has a .753 career OPS (.329 wOBA) and plays average to slightly below-average defense in LF. That's a guy you'd pay $7M-$8M per year? He also doesn't look like someone who will age well with his body type.

I dunno. I'd rather not the Indians go after him, especially after this prototypical career year.

Perhaps a more recent review of Melky's performance would be in order...

2011 wOBA: .349
2011 OPS: .809

2012 wOBA: .391
2012 OPS: .918

Additionally, Melky has a two year combined 9.0 WAR. Melky Cabrera combined with Alex Gordon and Jeff Francoeur to set the league on fire w/r to outfield assists in 2011. His arm is nearly as good as Shin-soo Choo's. He is clearly an above average OF'er in Left and can play both RF and CF. His body type ?.. really?. 2012 is a continuation of his best baseball, not just a career year. These results show he has dedicated himself to becoming a true professional at his craft, so YES, paying him $ 7 - 8 MM/yr would be money well spent..

[JP_Frost]

He's sporting a .382 babip, compared to a .309 career mark. Even last year he was at .332. He's having a quintessential 27-years old career year.

And no, he's not an above average fielder in LF.

[GeronimoSon]

He's sporting a .382 babip, compared to a .309 career mark. Even last year he was at .332. He's having a quintessential 27-years old career year.

And no, he's not an above average fielder in LF.

Quintessential?. no..

and..yes.. he's an above average fielder with a very good arm..

[JP_Frost]

Alright. Let's stop it here. You don't want to agree with the stats and I don't want to agree with with what you've seen.

[Hermie13]

Alright. Let's stop it here. You don't want to agree with the stats and I don't want to agree with with what you've seen.

Stats actually show Melky is an average to above average defensive LFer. UZR is 0 this year, FRAA is 5.9, total zone runs is 6, and defensive runs saved is 1.

There are a lot of bad LFers out there, so it's not hard to be above average.

Can definitely understand the reservations about Melky. Big rise in BABIP could make signing him a bit risky. Some guys though when they are on will just post high BABIPs though (Choo is a good example). Melk has decent speed so a higher BABIP makes some sense for him.

I do think he's a bit of a risky sign, but $7-8M would still be a steal IMO. Think it's a moot point as I can't imagine he'd get less than $10M a year. He's still so young and can play all 3 outfield spots (to varying degrees).

[JP_Frost]

I'm talking career numbers and not just this year, but whatever.

[GeronimoSon]

I'm talking career numbers and not just this year, but whatever.

Career numbers are pointless.. what a player did more than a half decade ago have virtually no bearing on what he's doing now. The previous season or two is clearly the most representative of how well or poorly a player is performing or will perform..

[danh8]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

Pence was traded for more than that. And as said, the money was a huge issue. No way the Indians could have afforded that, not with how crappy the fans are here.

I'm tired of the Dolan diatribe that everything is the fans fault because they don't support our fireworks and dollar hot dog entertainment package enough. Support from the fans here has never been an issue, if they are given a quality product....a vision and plan for success ....even competent ownership and front office management. it's just at every turn, they see nothing at all that resembles competent ownership, or a strong front office.

I'm one that really doesn't see the lack of money invested y the Dolan's as the primary reason for continued failure. I wouldn't invest money when I have people running the organization that can't get out of their own way, and making mistakes right and left. I can tell you the morale of players at AA and above in the minors is horrible too. Guys like Thomas Neal just want out. Why ? Because they don't feel of get communicated to them any plan at all that is in polace for their careers.

Just a poor organization , with poor people running the show.. No longterm vision that is ever stuck with. Ineffective people kept and allowed to continue ...no standard of excellence in the least.

I don't blame the fans at all..

[GeronimoSon]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

Pence was traded for more than that. And as said, the money was a huge issue. No way the Indians could have afforded that, not with how crappy the fans are here.

I'm tired of the Dolan diatribe that everything is the fans fault because they don't support our fireworks and dollar hot dog entertainment package enough. Support from the fans here has never been an issue, if they are given a quality product....a vision and plan for success ....even competent ownership and front office management. it's just at every turn, they see nothing at all that resembles competent ownership, or a strong front office.

I'm one that really doesn't see the lack of money invested y the Dolan's as the primary reason for continued failure. I wouldn't invest money when I have people running the organization that can't get out of their own way, and making mistakes right and left. I can tell you the morale of players at AA and above in the minors is horrible too. Guys like Thomas Neal just want out. Why ? Because they don't feel of get communicated to them any plan at all that is in polace for their careers.

Just a poor organization , with poor people running the show.. No longterm vision that is ever stuck with. Ineffective people kept and allowed to continue ...no standard of excellence in the least.

I don't blame the fans at all..

-What Dolan Diatribe?.. please provide the quotes you are referring to.. make sure they're dated 2011 or newer. Ten year old quotes are not relevant..

-What is meant by can't get out of their own way.. EVERYTHING and NOTHING.. you're not saying squaaadddoooshe in this posting..

-How do you know or measure the morale at the AA level and above.. You can't. .and haven't.. You're not a player.. not a manager.. not a coach.. you might be a roasted peanut vendor !! that alone would make you unhappy in your work, but not a purveyor or seer on the morale of the farm system at any level...

-One of the strongest tenants of the Mark Shapiro/Chris Antonetti era and WELL KNOWN THROUGHOUT BASEBALL is their ability to communicate the status of that players strengths and weaknesses with the players in the farm system. This is a fact and indisputable. You're comment is just plain wrong...

-Vision / something of excellence/blame.. yada, yada... If it makes you, and only you, happy to lay blame.. then what a sad life you have.. Blame the manager. blame the front office.. blame the owner.. don't blame the fans.. Well.. now that that's done (for the life of me, IDK what ever gets done with these kinds of idiot postings), you should have company in your misery and miserable assessment of the Indians from a Cup Half Empty P.O.V.

[Hermie13]

I'm talking career numbers and not just this year, but whatever.

Career total zone runs in LF is -3, career defensive runs saved is 20, career UZR/150 is -0.7. FRAA doesn't really break down by position but 2012 will be only the 2nd time in his career he's started more games in LF than CF, the other being 2006. In 2006 posted a 1.6 FRAA and this year 4.6. Also never heard a scout question his defense in LF. I'd agree on CF, he doesn't have the range to play there (though he doesn't embarass himself). I guess if you only focus on UZR and total zone you could call him below average for his career but consisering how young he was when he came up, pretty resonable to assume he could improve defensively. Plus UZR may not be the best stats since he mostly was a CFer so the sample size each year for his LF defense was mostly small (til this season).

Again though, likely moot point. Think he along with Bourn and Hamilton are the 3 completely out of the Tribe's reach. Also think they are the only 3 guaranteed to be offered arbitration by their teams. With only the top 10 picks/teams being protected this year, not sure the Tribe would want to sign one even if they could. Though who knows, maybe we do pick top 10 with how they've played of late (believe we are 11th worse now? Battling Philly which actually could be an interesting story line). That too is probably a moot point as it was this winter...remember how we thought it was a positive to finish in the top 15 to get the protected pick. Didn't make a difference. Though maybe we'll be surprised.

[BrianM]

FYI Melky Cabrera lost almost 30 pounds the last two years. Geronimo may have just been stating something that seemed logical, but it had a lot of truth to it. Melky wanted to become a better ball player so he dedicated himself to getting in the best shape of his life. The results have obviously paid off. He may not be stealing many bases but he is very quick and could steal between 25-35 bases every year for the next 5 years if he played for a manager who lets him run. His speed is also a big factor in his increased BABIP.

Melky is a very good player and IMHO, will probably not sign a deal for less than 10 mil/yr. Hes actually very similar to Choo, but Melky can actually hit lefties. Ive got a feeling the next deal he signs will shock a lot of people.

[danh8]

-What Dolan Diatribe?.. please provide the quotes you are referring to.. make sure they're dated 2011 or newer. Ten year old quotes are not relevant..

-What is meant by can't get out of their own way.. EVERYTHING and NOTHING.. you're not saying squaaadddoooshe in this posting..

-How do you know or measure the morale at the AA level and above.. You can't. .and haven't.. You're not a player.. not a manager.. not a coach.. you might be a roasted peanut vendor !! that alone would make you unhappy in your work, but not a purveyor or seer on the morale of the farm system at any level...

-One of the strongest tenants of the Mark Shapiro/Chris Antonetti era and WELL KNOWN THROUGHOUT BASEBALL is their ability to communicate the status of that players strengths and weaknesses with the players in the farm system. This is a fact and indisputable. You're comment is just plain wrong...

-Vision / something of excellence/blame.. yada, yada... If it makes you, and only you, happy to lay blame.. then what a sad life you have.. Blame the manager. blame the front office.. blame the owner.. don't blame the fans.. Well.. now that that's done (for the life of me, IDK what ever gets done with these kinds of idiot postings), you should have company in your misery and miserable assessment of the Indians from a Cup Half Empty P.O.V.

[/quote]

The diatribe is the small market, poor attendance excuse for their failures. It's been the backdrop for their failures for years now.

I'm aware that the perception of communication is there, but ...a common theme I get from numerous families I've come to know of players in our system doesn't jive with that. I'm sure you won't choose to believe that I know and talk to many..but, that's fine. A common theme is heard most notably that starts at AA and is very present in AAA of players just stalled, and no plan in place for them. The lack of communication, and even outright lies have been told to me and not just an isolated one or two... this isn't just this year either...

It's easy to lay blame in this organization. The results don't lie. Poor drafting and player development in an organization that requires it as a small market club. Hopefully an uptick will come in the next 3-4 years when some of the Grant picks begin to filter into the upper levels... but accountability has to be present. The Dolan's are loyal to a fault with front office personnel that has failed to produce.

Cup half full, half empty ??? It's not about that...being a positive person or negative ...it's seeing that reality of the situation for what it is, and hoping that the Dolan's begin to hold those responsible ..accountable ..

Right now, this organization is, in my opinion, at it's lowest point since the mid-70's. The fans are going from the point of anger ...to the dangerous dangerous level of disinterest. Small markets can have success, but it requires strong drafting, strong player development ...and smart calculated moves by the GM when it comes to trades. We've had some great successes, but way too many errors. Unfortunately, the failures of our farm system have put us at a point that we can't recover from it. We haven't had a 1st round draft pick become a strong contributor on our major league team since Sabathia in around '98 ...14 years. All those responsible are still drawing paychecks ...where's the accountability ?

You can't have a strong successful organization without it..

[Hermie13]

FYI Melky Cabrera lost almost 30 pounds the last two years. Geronimo may have just been stating something that seemed logical, but it had a lot of truth to it. Melky wanted to become a better ball player so he dedicated himself to getting in the best shape of his life. The results have obviously paid off. He may not be stealing many bases but he is very quick and could steal between 25-35 bases every year for the next 5 years if he played for a manager who lets him run. His speed is also a big factor in his increased BABIP.

Melky is a very good player and IMHO, will probably not sign a deal for less than 10 mil/yr. Hes actually very similar to Choo, but Melky can actually hit lefties. Ive got a feeling the next deal he signs will shock a lot of people.

Agree here. Hasn't been a 20-20 guy yet but has a shot this year and nearly had it last year.

I actually think Melky's contract this winter could impact what Choo will look to get (he'll be 3 years older when he hits free agency though).

[GeronimoSon]

..I'm sure you won't choose to believe that I know and talk to many..but, that's fine...

Comments like these cast an unverifiable validation to an unmeasureable or intangible. In short, the comment is unjustifiable... and it really doesn't matter if you're the source or not as pedantic as that may be. The players are the source of the information / status of morale / etc and they're not identified or quoted.

...It's easy to lay blame in this organization...

Which gets you nothing, zero, zilch, nada.. A charade of cause effect comments subsequently are rendered moot.. The "butterfly effect" is for the oh so esoteric to hold onto when they are unable or unwilling to accept that good results don't necessarily mean rings. There was another comment about being patient... well, maybe being A patient is more palatable.

The continued delineation of the 1998 draft, the injury to Adam Miller, the failure of Trevor Crowe, etc. etc. etc and or some other 'facts' serves what purpose? If accountability requires answering to after the fact results, there can be no accountability. That is, hindsight is 20/20..but at the time of the 'decision', whatever it may have been, (e.g. signing Jake Westbrook to a three year contract..) it was the best decision based on the situation as it existed.

Note: and I apologize for the negative connotation of my early comments to you. After reading through them, it came across as being boorish.. It was not what I intended..

[danh8]

When things aren't working you make changes to effect a more positive result. Paul Dolan is likely our owner for the foreseen future because prospective owners aren't lining up, therefore it's his mess to try and finally get right. Going with the same formulas, run by the same personnel obviously continues to leave the organization in a stagnant if not slow death march. The time has cone for fans to hear some new voices and thought processes to attempt to restore some hope in the community, for an organization that desperately needs that support now. I'm on board with the basic outline for success we utilize as a small market club, it's the execution that has failed miserably. Those executing that plan most notably, again.. In my opinion, should be guys like Mirabelli, Shapiro, and Antonetti. I think it's imperative that the Dolan's grow out of this comfort zone mentality of the presumed benefits of stability and look to begin effecting positive changes through new personnel at the top.

[GeronimoSon]

Melky will be well rested.. after his fifty game suspension.. oooops..

[Edible14]

FYI Melky Cabrera lost almost 30 pounds the last two years. Geronimo may have just been stating something that seemed logical, but it had a lot of truth to it. Melky wanted to become a better ball player so he dedicated himself to getting in the best shape of his life. The results have obviously paid off. He may not be stealing many bases but he is very quick and could steal between 25-35 bases every year for the next 5 years if he played for a manager who lets him run. His speed is also a big factor in his increased BABIP.

Melky is a very good player and IMHO, will probably not sign a deal for less than 10 mil/yr. Hes actually very similar to Choo, but Melky can actually hit lefties. Ive got a feeling the next deal he signs will shock a lot of people.

Agree here. Hasn't been a 20-20 guy yet but has a shot this year and nearly had it last year.

I actually think Melky's contract this winter could impact what Choo will look to get (he'll be 3 years older when he hits free agency though).

Well, Melky's value just took a nosedive with him getting suspended for taking testosterone treatments. Good on him for just admitting to it, though. And now his career year(s) will be completely discounted by many fans.

[dazindiansfanuk]

Ouch

He's just cost himself a fortune.

Dumbass thing today in today's baseball - you're not getting away with it.

[JP_Frost]

Hmm, career year after all?

That's the reason why I look at a player's entire career and minor league track record instead of just one or two good years. Of course players improve and some even exceed expectations by a great margin, but sample size is everything in baseball and nothing that Melky had done in his career would suggest he could sustain this type of performance. I think what he did last year with the Royals is his absolute ceiling and you will not be getting that for the duration of his new contract.

and 20-20 means nothing. Those are counting stats.

[artgold]

I don't understand why Melky Cabrera's power numbers weren't up this season. His extra base hit rate was a little under 29%, which was pretty much keeping with his career average. His hit rate was up, but he wasn't getting a higher rate of extra base hits.

I thought that these substances were supposed to drive up HR rates, didn't see it here.

[GeronimoSon]

I don't understand why Melky Cabrera's power numbers weren't up this season. His extra base hit rate was a little under 29%, which was pretty much keeping with his career average. His hit rate was up, but he wasn't getting a higher rate of extra base hits.

I thought that these substances were supposed to drive up HR rates, didn't see it here.

The primary use of steroids is to promote the process whereby the body recovers/heals faster,not necessarily to create bulk muscle. If no healing is needed, then the body, with diet and exercise, can become bigger, stronger faster provided the regimen is defined and followed. It appears, in Melky's case, that his regimen was designed to reduce the wear and tear on his body whereby he was going into each game "fresher" than he had in the past.

At least, that may be a plausible theory on what was going on.. and it certainly had nothing to do with is formative years in the minors or with the Yankees...

[Hermie13]

Hmm, career year after all?

That's the reason why I look at a player's entire career and minor league track record instead of just one or two good years. Of course players improve and some even exceed expectations by a great margin, but sample size is everything in baseball and nothing that Melky had done in his career would suggest he could sustain this type of performance. I think what he did last year with the Royals is his absolute ceiling and you will not be getting that for the duration of his new contract.

and 20-20 means nothing. Those are counting stats.

Means nothing to who? Cause teams care about this and it gets guys paid. If counting stats meant nothing then BJ Upton would be worth little on the open market, and people wouldn't be calling Bourn a potential $16M a year guy. I can understand RBIs and runs scored as those rely mostly on the team around you, but HRs and SBs are still very important stats for teams.

Melky had 201 hits last year, and his minor league track record actually did suggest he'd be a guy that would hit for a good average. Hit nearly .300 with all but 50 some at-bats coming before he was even 21 years old.

With the new revelations I won't discount that 2011 may be his ceiling, but based off his track record in the minors and his age, don't see why he couldn't put up those numbers over the next 4 years even if he's clean. Personally would take those numbers from a guy in his 20s.

Think he's a guy that the Tribe could actually look into now. Price will go way down and could be a nice buy-low guy for the Tribe. Not your ideal guy with the PED suspsension but woudn't be the first Tribe player suspeneded for it.

[GeronimoSon]

Hmm, career year after all?

That's the reason why I look at a player's entire career and minor league track record instead of just one or two good years. Of course players improve and some even exceed expectations by a great margin, but sample size is everything in baseball and nothing that Melky had done in his career would suggest he could sustain this type of performance. I think what he did last year with the Royals is his absolute ceiling and you will not be getting that for the duration of his new contract.

and 20-20 means nothing. Those are counting stats.

Means nothing to who? Cause teams care about this and it gets guys paid. If counting stats meant nothing then BJ Upton would be worth little on the open market, and people wouldn't be calling Bourn a potential $16M a year guy. I can understand RBIs and runs scored as those rely mostly on the team around you, but HRs and SBs are still very important stats for teams.

Melky had 201 hits last year, and his minor league track record actually did suggest he'd be a guy that would hit for a good average. Hit nearly .300 with all but 50 some at-bats coming before he was even 21 years old.

With the new revelations I won't discount that 2011 may be his ceiling, but based off his track record in the minors and his age, don't see why he couldn't put up those numbers over the next 4 years even if he's clean. Personally would take those numbers from a guy in his 20s.

Think he's a guy that the Tribe could actually look into now. Price will go way down and could be a nice buy-low guy for the Tribe. Not your ideal guy with the PED suspsension but woudn't be the first Tribe player suspeneded for it.

At most, it looks like Melky's suspension might go a week into the 2013 season.. Buy low?..Yes.. it would be a buy low acquisition and I'd be okay with it.. The real issue will be what the Indians would be buying, that is, Melky brings the kind of baggage that the image conscious Indians are a bit reluctant to take on.. It could be the obstacle that will keep CA from taking a risk..

[Hermie13]

Think he's a guy that the Tribe could actually look into now. Price will go way down and could be a nice buy-low guy for the Tribe. Not your ideal guy with the PED suspsension but woudn't be the first Tribe player suspeneded for it.

At most, it looks like Melky's suspension might go a week into the 2013 season.. Buy low?..Yes.. it would be a buy low acquisition and I'd be okay with it.. The real issue will be what the Indians would be buying, that is, Melky brings the kind of baggage that the image conscious Indians are a bit reluctant to take on.. It could be the obstacle that will keep CA from taking a risk..

I agree that it'd be a risk and very easily one the Tribe won't want to take. Was more pointing out that before the suspension Melky was un-gettable guy for the Indians (too many years, too much money); however, now he likely is looking at only a 1 year deal for not much money (at least not a ton of base salary). Would seem to be a very gettable player....now whether the Indians even bother diving into the free agent market at all remains to be seen, let alone for a guy coming off a suspension.

Not sure on the 'imagine' thing having a big impact though but you never know. Tribe stood behind Betancourt when he was suspended for PEDs and behind Byrd when the HGH stuff came out. They have also had 3 guys with DUIs arrests in the past year and a half, and they haven't really worried about their imagine with that. Seem fine with bringing Carmona back too after that whole scandal. Melky is obviously a different situation but when your options are limited you sometimes overlook things.

[GeronimoSon]

Think he's a guy that the Tribe could actually look into now. Price will go way down and could be a nice buy-low guy for the Tribe. Not your ideal guy with the PED suspsension but woudn't be the first Tribe player suspeneded for it.

At most, it looks like Melky's suspension might go a week into the 2013 season.. Buy low?..Yes.. it would be a buy low acquisition and I'd be okay with it.. The real issue will be what the Indians would be buying, that is, Melky brings the kind of baggage that the image conscious Indians are a bit reluctant to take on.. It could be the obstacle that will keep CA from taking a risk..

I agree that it'd be a risk and very easily one the Tribe won't want to take. Was more pointing out that before the suspension Melky was un-gettable guy for the Indians (too many years, too much money); however, now he likely is looking at only a 1 year deal for not much money (at least not a ton of base salary). Would seem to be a very gettable player....now whether the Indians even bother diving into the free agent market at all remains to be seen, let alone for a guy coming off a suspension.

Not sure on the 'imagine' thing having a big impact though but you never know. Tribe stood behind Betancourt when he was suspended for PEDs and behind Byrd when the HGH stuff came out. They have also had 3 guys with DUIs arrests in the past year and a half, and they haven't really worried about their imagine with that. Seem fine with bringing Carmona back too after that whole scandal. Melky is obviously a different situation but when your options are limited you sometimes overlook things.

image..

The biggest difference may be that all the players you mentioned were already on the Indians roster. Sending a message to the rest of the wigwam: "..we protect our own.." also came into play.. As far as buying low, Melky made ~ $ 4 at the time of his suspension and has ACES as his agent.. It would not be beyond 'reasonable' to have his agent find a lower profile team to rebuild his reputation.. The suspension will emasculate the guaranteed portion of any contract he signs. In short, he could be a low base + incentives type deal that could drive his salary up to the level he would have gotten if he hadn't been suspended.. and, like a good commissioned salesperson, it's ALWAYS a good thing when you're paying on the back end of performance as opposed to the front end..

[ironmike]

Tony, you are supposed to be "Bill Nye the Science Guy" when it comes to Indians prospects. You are correct when you write the A's are the model the Indians should follow [u]IF, the guys selecting the talent are as good as the Billy Beane and his crew.[/u]

For the past 10+ years we have not had a true baseball executive talent leading our organization. I say, get rid of the Ivy League Spreadsheet approach and go back to real baseball people. It is the only way to compete and proven out over failed ownerships for the Indians since 1949. Only two groups got it right, Veek and Hank Greenberg and Jacobs, Peters and Hart. This is not rocket science. Right now we have a nit-wit, spoon fed owner, who knows nothing about the right business model to win in Cleveland and those he has wrongly chosen to run the baseball operations who in turn hire more incompetent scouts and wannabees.

FACT: they took over an organization that was one of the very best in ALL of baseball and now it is a disgrace. The economy has nothing to do with it. The fans saw and experienced winning baseball and can't be fooled. The lifeblood of the Indians is their ability to produce home grown talent, Shapiro and his posse failed miserably. Then the owner promotes him??? How dumb is that?

A draft choice, a rule 5 guy, a 3rd world free agent selection or signing doesn't really mean a thing unless the scouts and our ENTIRE baseball side who pick them are savvy and of high caliber. What we really need to know is how our baseball network of executives and scouts measure up to other organization. If they (Atkins and friends) are chirping and continuously giving you lip service then you should know they are hiding something. We the fans ONLY care about results, not power arms and ten adjectives to describe a farm hand.

Lousy drafts EQUAL lousy people in place making the selections. A great potential story, why did Brad Grant select Pomeranz over Sale? Would like to know that. HUGE mistake.

The owner, he doesn't know how to pick the right baseball people to lead and make good decisions. Bad people only will attract other bad or low caliber people.

What other thing can it be? 12 years of bad luck? Want the Indians to win? Stay away from Progressive Field, force the owner to sell. There are smart business people out there who will buy the team. Why would any minority owner want to invest in this mess and see his investment be pissed away by the same bad ownership and front office? That is the real reason no one will invest.

The real story is the incompetence of Dolan and Shapiro. Who is going to write the truth? All the facts are there to back up the allegations. Guess it will be a writer not on the payroll? You gotta great opportunity to differentiate yourself from the pack, I urge you to do it.

[Pork Chop Pough]

Tony, you are supposed to be "Bill Nye the Science Guy" when it comes to Indians prospects. You are correct when you write the A's are the model the Indians should follow IF, the guys selecting the talent are as good as the Billy Beane and his crew.[/u]

For the past 10+ years we have not had a true baseball executive talent leading our organization. I say, get rid of the Ivy League Spreadsheet approach and go back to real baseball people.

For a guy who's always going on and on about Moneyball and Billy Beane, and whining about "Ivy League Spreadsheets", you should probably google the name Paul DePodesta sometime.

[JP_Frost]

You know what's funny about this Oakland comparison? First off, they aren't really doing anything differently than other small to medium market teams, and secondly people were all over Billy Beane's methods because of a lack or results (this would be their first winning season since 2007).

I'm not saying their front office isn't good, but the Indians are basically doing the same thing the A's are doing.

[ironmike]

Pork Chop, know exactly who Paul DePodesta is. Supposedly he told Shapiro when he worked for the Indians to get Kevin Youkliss way back when. Shapiro said no, because he walked like a duck.

Want more Shapiro stories, got plenty of them.

Been telling other posters since the Matt Lawton trade he did not know talent. Now that the reality is here, I don't get to many arguments.

[JP_Frost]

He didn't know talent?

Carlos Santana, Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin-Soo Choo, Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Travis Hafner, Coco Crisp, Chris Perez, and let's not forget the Kevin Millwood signing. I'd say that's a very nice haul of talent over the years.

Of course he has missed on some as well, but every GM does that and there aren't many that can put that amount successful moves on their resumé.

[GeronimoSon]

A note in the Yahoo Sports Baseball by Steve Henson, gives an overview of the "trade deadline" results.. Interesting to note that other than Hanley Ramirez, the vast majority of the players traded at or near the deadline have pretty much been busts:

Here's the link: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees ... ayers.html

Seems like a much ado about not much at the trading deadline.. It could be argued that the GM of the teams acquiring infusion of players are "going for it".. but, like free agency, it seldom works out..

[ironmike]

Frost, yes he made a few good trades, more bad than good. Gave up two Cy Young Award winners and got zilch back.

Farm system is a disgrace.

What planet are you living on?

A few good trades doesn't get it nearly done.

Last in attendance, advertisers and sponsors bailing out ... those are the hard, cold facts. Go ahead and keep sugar coating if it makes you feel powerful, you're living in a fantasy world.

[daingean]

Tony, you are supposed to be "Bill Nye the Science Guy" when it comes to Indians prospects. You are correct when you write the A's are the model the Indians should follow [u]IF, the guys selecting the talent are as good as the Billy Beane and his crew.[/u]

I really think you must be joking saying the Athletics are an organization to model after. They have actually been worse than the Indians the last 8 years. Only 1 play-off appearance and that was still with the pitching staff that Sandy Alderson assembled. I am sure the "IronMike" of the Athletics fame is still longing for the Sandy Alderson era in Oakland. Just because he had a book and movie doesn't make him a success. Yes both Mulder and Zito were products of Beane's drafts but the guts of that team were drafted/acquired under Alderson (i.e. Hudson, Giambi, Chavez, Tejada). I just don't think the A's are that much of a model to use......unless you like 3rd place.

In my opinion, the "MoneyBall" drafts are what has led the Indians to taking low ceiling guys like Sowers, Mills, Crowe, and Huff in the first round (because the MoneyBall philosophy is drafting near ready guys and using a complicated stat method of evaluating talent). If you are going to use a model, I'd prefer the Tampa draft philosophy of drafting tools and developing them.

[GeronimoSon]

...If you are going to use a model, I'd prefer the Tampa draft philosophy of drafting tools and developing them....

+1

The Rays do have a bias toward HS kids with huge upside and risk.. In past few drafts.. the Rays have:

2012: 5 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..
2011: 5 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..
2010: 4 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..
2009: 5 of their first 6 draftees were HS kids..

Many of these draftees have yet to show they are ML'ers. In fact, excluding the 2012 & 2011 drafts (too soon to tell) & going back to the 2006 draft, the Rays have three players (David Price, Evan Longoria and Alex Cobb) that they drafted in their first six picks that are ML'ers. This proves the fact that even the teams that draft in the upper levels of the Rule IV draft and have allegedly knowledgeable scouts don't necessarily do well. It's a crap shoot at worst..

[JP_Frost]

Frost, yes he made a few good trades, more bad than good. Gave up two Cy Young Award winners and got zilch back.

Farm system is a disgrace.

What planet are you living on?

A few good trades doesn't get it nearly done.

Last in attendance, advertisers and sponsors bailing out ... those are the hard, cold facts. Go ahead and keep sugar coating if it makes you feel powerful, you're living in a fantasy world.

So you name 2 bad trades and that outnumbers all the other moves I mentioned? Math is hard I guess.

The farm system isn't good at the moment because some prospects have graduated to the majors, some interesting guys have been injured and some have been traded. That happens. We have had good drafts (albeit on paper) the last couple of years and now we have to wait and see how these kids develop. The fact that you fail to understand this process speakes volumes.

As for the attendance and sponsors -- let's completely ignore a worldwide economic crisis. Besides, alot of Indians fans think like you unfortunately and are quick to bash this team because we don't have Thome, Manny and Vizquel. But we should just trade for them with our "disgrace" of a farm system and the guy pulling the trigger on those moves is the one that doesn't recognize talent. It's not contradictory at all.

Would attendance go up if the Indians win? Of course, nobody can dispute that. But even earlier in the season when we were in the race, people still didn't show up as much. Perhaps Shapiro rejects them at the gates because Dolan told him that the aim is to be as mediocre as possible.