MLB trade deadline

[Hermie13]

I much rather have Wright then Anderson at this point.... Another LH hitter...... Are Antonetti and Shaprio southpaws?

To be fair, Kotchman, Hafner, and Damon will all be gone next year...so I dunno. Whatever, I like Lars Anderson, still has power and a good eye. Just wanted the Indians to do something other than nothing.

May be wrong too but isn't Steven Wright a minor league free agent after this season? Thought he had 6 seasons in so he could have walked after the season if not added to the 40-man (didn't seem likely) anyways. At least you got something for him, though I am a bit sad to see him go. Always fan watching a knuckleballer pitch when your team isn't the one facing him.

I think so, but now that I think of it, did the Indians have an open 40 man spot? I thought it was full and I'm certain Anderson will have to be added as he was on the Red Sox. Probably someone like Herrmann...Rottino more likely, although I wonder if the Indians would consider him for the bench later.

Was wondering about the 40-man move as well. Either of the ones you mentioned would make sense to move off the 40-man. I'd guess Rottino as more likely too.

[Hermie13]

Well it appears Carlos Lee is still available for all of you who have wanted him since last year.

Available but not tradable it seems. Sounds like he blocked a deal to the Yanks.

Could be an interesting August trade candidate. Astros are reportedly paying nearly all of his $18M salary so money shouldn't be an issue. If he somehow gets thru the NL on waiviers I'd take a chance on him if I'm Cleveland. Worse case you can't work out a deal or he blocks it (if we're on the no-trade list). Or...maybe the Marlins just let him walk via waivers and you get him for virtually nothing....as I don't think no-trade clauses protect against a waiver claim? or do they?

[GoTribe028]

I much rather have Wright then Anderson at this point.... Another LH hitter...... Are Antonetti and Shaprio southpaws?

To be fair, Kotchman, Hafner, and Damon will all be gone next year...so I dunno. Whatever, I like Lars Anderson, still has power and a good eye. Just wanted the Indians to do something other than nothing.

May be wrong too but isn't Steven Wright a minor league free agent after this season? Thought he had 6 seasons in so he could have walked after the season if not added to the 40-man (didn't seem likely) anyways. At least you got something for him, though I am a bit sad to see him go. Always fan watching a knuckleballer pitch when your team isn't the one facing him.

I think so, but now that I think of it, did the Indians have an open 40 man spot? I thought it was full and I'm certain Anderson will have to be added as he was on the Red Sox. Probably someone like Herrmann...Rottino more likely, although I wonder if the Indians would consider him for the bench later.

Was wondering about the 40-man move as well. Either of the ones you mentioned would make sense to move off the 40-man. I'd guess Rottino as more likely too.

I also wonder whats going on with LaPorta. He's gotta be coming up. Not because I want him to but if Anderson is going to C-bus, he's likely playing everyday at first. LaPorta wouldn't be made into the everyday left fielder down there, or I wouldn't think so anyway. The Indians could always just release Chad Huffman to open up AB's, or LaPorta could be up soon, which could mean the end of Shelley Duncan? Hell I dunno.

[martyinnewyork]

In the space of one week, we have traded for Brent Lillibridge, traded for Lars Anderson, and decided not to skip Derek Lowe(the worst pitcher in the world for the last two months) in the rotation when we pretend to be in the midst of a pennant race. To say that "Anderson has power" is to say that LaPorta/Canzler/Phelps/Goedert have power, as all have more homers than Lars' 9. If the plan is to collect formerly highly rated prospects who have been a bust, why not bring back Beau Mills and Trevor Crowe? Hell, let's throw Adam Miller in there as well! Stephen Wright, if he can throw the knuckler for strikes, can be a major league starter for ten or more years. Lars Anderson looks poised to be another fringe AAAA filler.

[Hermie13]

This is gonna piss off a few around here...Per Kenny Rosenthal on The Twitter

Source: #Marlins close to sending Gaby Sanchez to #Pirates for OF Gorkys Hernandez and a competitive-balance pick.

Sigh...

If the Indians had the 33rd pick in the draft and dealt it for Gaby Sanchez, i'd be pretty pissed right now. I like Sanchez and would have been a fan of getting him, but he's not worth that high a pick nor the $1.5M in draft money that comes with it. Not when you consider he's hit .215 since the All-Star break of last season. Hit only .225 in the 2nd half last year on top of the struggles this year (so the struggles can't be just from Ozzie or the new park).

I definitely think he can turn things around in Pittsburgh, but man that's a decent sized gamble on the Pirates' part IMO. Like his OBP skills when he's on, but he's almost a RH Kotchman in a way (who has out-hit him the last 2 seasons).

[martyinnewyork]

"Your 2012 Cleveland Indians - The Team Without A Plan!!!"

[Hermie13]

I also wonder whats going on with LaPorta. He's gotta be coming up. Not because I want him to but if Anderson is going to C-bus, he's likely playing everyday at first. LaPorta wouldn't be made into the everyday left fielder down there, or I wouldn't think so anyway. The Indians could always just release Chad Huffman to open up AB's, or LaPorta could be up soon, which could mean the end of Shelley Duncan? Hell I dunno.

I really can't see this being the end of Duncan, not when he's hitting .306 with an 1.100+ OPS in July with 4 HRs.

Will be interesting to see what they do at AAA. Could DH one, have the other play 1B and rotate. Lars was playing some LF this year for Boston's AAA club. Maybe Lars continues to play out there down in Columbus?

[martyinnewyork]

The Indians don't shop at Macy's or Sears or even K-Mart... strictly yard sales...

[martyinnewyork]

LaPorta is not hitting now, though I think he homered today. Even when he was hot, he didn't get a meaningful look in Cleveland, so I doubt they plan on calling him up when he's cooled off. However, with the moves they've been making, it's hard to predict anymore.

[Hermie13]

Mujica for Zach Cox was my most surprising move today (even moreso than Dempster to the Rangers or the Pirates getting Sanchez). Still upsets me at times how the Tribe gave up on Mujica. Such a great arm and was no need to DFA when they did. O well. Cox having a down year but then again so was Mujica.

Kinda leads into my one small erk with the Tribe. Wasn't really expecting any big moves at the deadline but a little surprised/disappointed that they didn't look at moving a guy like Smith (maybe they did though I guess). After seeing what the Fish got for Mujica, would think Smith could have gotten you something solid. Would require you to but more pressure on Allen (give him the 7th inning?). Not really surprised the Tribe kept Smith with how bad the bullpen/pitching has been and the fact that they have liked him since his college days. Just after Adams got dealt for some top specs last year, and now Mujica...maybe I'm alone in this though? Thoughts?

[Hermie13]

The Indians don't shop at Macy's or Sears or even K-Mart... strictly yard sales...

Actually agree here. Found Cabrera, Choo, Santana, and McAllister at yard sales

[GoTribe028]

I also wonder whats going on with LaPorta. He's gotta be coming up. Not because I want him to but if Anderson is going to C-bus, he's likely playing everyday at first. LaPorta wouldn't be made into the everyday left fielder down there, or I wouldn't think so anyway. The Indians could always just release Chad Huffman to open up AB's, or LaPorta could be up soon, which could mean the end of Shelley Duncan? Hell I dunno.

I really can't see this being the end of Duncan, not when he's hitting .306 with an 1.100+ OPS in July with 4 HRs.

Will be interesting to see what they do at AAA. Could DH one, have the other play 1B and rotate. Lars was playing some LF this year for Boston's AAA club. Maybe Lars continues to play out there down in Columbus?

Yes it would be odd timing if Duncan were to be ousted. I didn't consider his recent #'s. Still, you only keep him if you consider him part of the team next season. Which IMO puts Johnny Damon (who I supported originally and feel he wasn't always as bad as his #'s would tell you), Casey Kotchman, and Jose Lopez in a tight spot. Then again, they could finish out the year and we never see anyone of the Fedroff/Goedert/LaPorta/Canzler/Anderson/Player XYZ combo til September if at all this year.

[dazindiansfanuk]

The Tribe have a 40-man spot free.

They transferred Chiz to the 60-day DL to make room for Lillibridge on the 40-man, then they DFA'd Cunningham (thus opening a spot on the 40-man) to make room for Lillibridge on the 25-man.

[Bearcatbob]

"Your 2012 Cleveland Indians - The Team Without A Plan!!!"

I regularly get online fan surveys from the Indians. One of the questions they ask is if it is important to know what the vision of ownership is. I always say that is very important.

I ask the group - does anyone know what the vision of ownership is?

[Tondo]

Lars Anderson...really?

Some fun facts:

- we currently have 8 hitters in Columbus with a better OPS than Lars Anderson

- Lars Anderson is pretty much Nick Weglarz...you know, the guy we kicked off the 40 and let rot at AA...same age, same size, same position, same stats, both LHB

Summary: Like the Lillibridge "splash", this "move" is pretty much the 100th re-run of "the grass is always greener". I'm not saying it's an easy job, but this org is pretty planless right now...if they really "believe" in this group, then I want to see some heads rolling if they continue this downward trend...then again...if they REALLY believe in this group: why even listen to offers for Masterson, CP and Choo at all? Again, aimlessness is the only answer I can deduct out of this strange behaviour

I'm getting my pitchfork ready...

[martyinnewyork]

So Hermie, are you saying the Anderson trade is a good one? Anderson is the next Choo /Cabrera /Santana?

[Hermie13]

So Hermie, are you saying the Anderson trade is a good one? Anderson is the next Choo /Cabrera /Santana?

Or am I saying Wright is the next Broussard, Kearns, or Eduardo Perez...

Or it's just one of those deals that doesn't do much for either club.

[MadThinker88]

Lars Anderson...really?

I'm getting my pitchfork ready...

Be sure you bring garlic, wooden stakes, holy water & crosses. I would also suggest silver bullets and a weapon that can fire them. You never can be sure.

[Hermie13]

I ask the group - does anyone know what the vision of ownership is?

Win a Championship. Pretty simple

[criznit2009]

So Hermie, are you saying the Anderson trade is a good one? Anderson is the next Choo /Cabrera /Santana?

Or am I saying Wright is the next Broussard, Kearns, or Eduardo Perez...

Or it's just one of those deals that doesn't do much for either club.

We will see - rather have Wright.

[Edible14]

The Indians have plenty of garbage on the 40 that they can clear off to make room for Anderson. I'm not terribly familiar with him, but as a fan of all things knuckleball, I am incredibly disappointed that they gave up Steven Wright. Now he gets to go and learn from Wakefield. I won't be surprised if he's pitching well for them next year.

[artgold]

Lars Anderson for Steve Wright...I give up.

For the life of me, I can't figure out this team and I really find it frustrating.

How does Anderson fit? He has had nearly 3 seasons at AAA and hasn't improved at all during that time.

His slash lines the past 4 seasons (2009 in AA):

2009 - .233/.328/.345
2010 - .262/.340/.428
2011 - .265/.369/.422
2012 - .259/.359/.415

The guy is in his 6th minor league season. But I'm just stating stuff you guys already are aware of, I'm just venting here.

[criznit2009]

Agree Art, though Wright would have to been rostered (he'd been snapped up in the Rule V draft no doubt) - Anderson is now on the roster. If he was RH and looked to be improving thats one thing, but you nailed it. Wright is going up and Anderson is going down. I hate this trade - I hated the Naquin pick, I hate how Fedroff/Carrera/Goedert have done everything they could to dislodge Cunningham and now they have to battle him for playing time in AAA. Now here comes Anderson, the LH Laporta - it doesn't make sense!!!!!

My guess - Lopez gone, Goedert up or Damon gone and Fedroff up. Or maybe they do something with Huffman or Rottino - who flipping knows, what a mess.

[dazindiansfanuk]

I'm about as excited about the acquisition of Lars Anderson as everyone else but, let's not over-hype what we gave up here.

We gave up a potentially good STORY, not a good prospect!

If Wright had made it to the big leagues then it's a fantastic journey from nobody to Major Leaguer on the back of the mysterious knuckleball. But, the fact remains, even if he does make it to the big leagues he's more likely to disappear into nowhere than become the next RA Dickey.

[Bearcatbob]

Agree Art, though Wright would have to been rostered (he'd been snapped up in the Rule V draft no doubt) - Anderson is now on the roster. If he was RH and looked to be improving thats one thing, but you nailed it. Wright is going up and Anderson is going down. I hate this trade - I hated the Naquin pick, I hate how Fedroff/Carrera/Goedert have done everything they could to dislodge Cunningham and now they have to battle him for playing time in AAA. Now here comes Anderson, the LH Laporta - it doesn't make sense!!!!!

My guess - Lopez gone, Goedert up or Damon gone and Fedroff up. Or maybe they do something with Huffman or Rottino - who flipping knows, what a mess.

Looks to me like a move to help Columbus when we take one of their players to Cleveland. If so - it is a nice gesture to the city and their team fans.

[martyinnewyork]

I had a dream last night that they got rid of Asdrubal Cabrera. They only got cash back, no players. I was not the least bit surprised.
And I don't EXPECT Wright to be R.A.Dickey, but I do think he has a much, much better chance of helping a team than does Anderson. Why trade for Anderson? What does he bring that we don't already have in spades?

[criznit2009]

I had a dream last night that they got rid of Asdrubal Cabrera. They only got cash back, no players. I was not the least bit surprised.
And I don't EXPECT Wright to be R.A.Dickey, but I do think he has a much, much better chance of helping a team than does Anderson. Why trade for Anderson? What does he bring that we don't already have in spades?

Because we have Thomas Neal too duh...

I was being sarcastic in case that didn't come across.

[Prosecutor]

Lars Anderson for Steve Wright...I give up.

For the life of me, I can't figure out this team and I really find it frustrating.

How does Anderson fit? He has had nearly 3 seasons at AAA and hasn't improved at all during that time.

His slash lines the past 4 seasons (2009 in AA):

2009 - .233/.328/.345
2010 - .262/.340/.428
2011 - .265/.369/.422
2012 - .259/.359/.415

The guy is in his 6th minor league season. But I'm just stating stuff you guys already are aware of, I'm just venting here.

Yeah, I have no idea why they would go after the big Swede, a left-handed hitter who has proven three straight years that he can't hit AAA pitching, at least not well enough to play first base. And there's no evidence of any upside whatsoever. His trend line is perfectly flat.

At least Wright had a chance to be Dickey, or Wakefield. He just started throwing the knuckler full time last year. If he can get hitters out he can pitch 15 more years.

My guess is the Indians have some stats that show it takes at least five years of throwing the knuckleball to master it enough to use it in the bigs. Dickey had no success until he was in his 30s. Maybe they think Wright is at least several years away. Still doesn't explain why they wanted Lars.

And I really don't think the reason for the trade was to make a nice gesture to the Columbus fans. Really, bob?

[martyinnewyork]

Maybe Columbus has a predominantly Swedish population...

[daingean]

I personally have issue with the Anderson/Wright trade. I definitely like having a knuckleballer on staff but consider both to be in that "AAAA gamble status". It just really is nothing to get worked up about. They both have a chance to excel but the odds are long. Occasionally, you hit on the Casey Blake gambles. I think the real reason people are worked up about this that it's the only move that was made. Standing pat feels like taking the season off life support and letting it die.

I was certainly in favor of buying (especially a RH bat) because this team was/is in the hunt. Who knows what a middle of the order type hitter (i.e. Carlos Lee) would have done to change the look of this team. Is this team playing above their heads? Yes it was. Point is they don't have to beat the Yankees just the Tiggers and ChiSux (both have their share of warts). Once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

[artgold]

Actually daingean, I'd agree with you that Wright has a slight chance to excel, however I'd disagree with you that Anderson too could excel.

When you look at his performance, he clearly doesn't have areas that could provide growth. He isn't really that young anymore, his power hasn't improved at all his entire minor league career, and he has decent plate discipline along with an ability to make contact.

So what does this really give you? A guy who looks like if you gave him a full shot at the majors might (at best) hit in the .250-.260 range with a good amount of walks and 12-15 HRs. Not what you'd get from a 1st baseman playing for any decent ballclub.

When you look at the minor league performance of a guy like Casey Blake, the gamble is different. He was very up and down in the minors but you could see where he had a chance to put it together and be a half decent hitter. Add in his relatively good ability to play multiple positions, and you had something that was at least interesting.

Comparing Anderson to some more current players, I'd think that Cord Phelps has at least as much batting potential, and plays positions where his bat would be of more value. However we think of Phelps, I think we should expect less from Anderson.

Wright on the other hand, is really an unknown at this point. Looking at his hits per innings pitched this season gives you a glimmer that he may yet turn into a Tom Candiotti level pitcher. After all, Candi didn't estabilish himself in the majors until in his late 20's. Wright is certainly a long shot, but he has a chance.

I don't think Anderson does.

[Tondo]

I'm still waiting to read the difference between Anderson and Weglarz....anyone? He's a carbon copy of Wegz !

[OhioBaseball]

I'm still waiting to read the difference between Anderson and Weglarz....anyone? He's a carbon copy of Wegz !

Similar, but one main difference is Weglarz ate himself out of prospect relevance years ago. He sucks now. I prefer Anderson by quite a bit.

[OhioBaseball]

Good knuckleballers come around once a decade. R.A. Dickey gets publicity for about a week and suddenly we all get excited about some 27-year old pitcher in AA? If Wright ever gets good, it'll be 5 years from now and he'll be on his fourth team by then.

[ClevelandBlues]

I know it is not the trade that everyone wanted, but I like the pickup of Anderson. He is a project, but you have to like the walk rate. Power is often the last thing to develop for a lot of hitters, so I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility for him to improve on this. It would be nice if he hit for higher average though. I can see the comparison between Weglarz and Anderson, but the big difference between the two is health. Anderson is in the lineup everyday, and Weglarz can't seem to stay off the disabled list. Anderson also seems to be stalling in AAA, while Weglarz is having the same problem a level lower. He may not ever amount to anything, but there is some potential there.

As for Wright, having a knuckleballer is interesting, but he walks too many batters to be a major league option anytime soon. If the Indians really like him, I believe he is a minor league free agent at the end of the season. Nothing would stop us from resigning him in the offseason.

[Tondo]

Well, not sure the difference between AA and AAA is all that big for hitters (see Fedroff numbers) and Wegz had a .889 OPS in his 50 games in Columbus 2 years ago...I just don't see any kind of upside with Anderson

[Rocky55]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

[GeronimoSon]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

..for the prorated portion of his 2012 salary and a commitment for approximately $ 14 MM for 2013...

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

..to get a .200 hitting 1B that is having a season even poorer than Casey Kotchman...

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

..w/ a means to block any trade..

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

There is no doubt Pence acquisition would have improved the OF situation.. Sanchez would offer no change.. and Dempster wasn't coming here.. After the fact, who can say with any certainty that these 'moves' would have changed the disaster that has become the trips to Minnesota and Kansas City?..

[Hermie13]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

Pence was traded for more than that. And as said, the money was a huge issue. No way the Indians could have afforded that, not with how crappy the fans are here.

Sanchez...you are really downplaying that comp balance pick. Again, that pick would have been a Zach Eflin or Joey Gallo type player in this year's draft...or hell, could have been the difference between drafting Giolito vs Naquin with that extra $1.5M we'd of had to spend. Sure next year's draft doesn't look as strong, but all the more reason to have more money to get a top guy early round 1. No way do I touch Sanchez for that. Tribe would have had to dealt a guy like Dillon Howard to make up for that pick IMO.

The only one of the three that seemed gettable to me based on what they were dealt for was Pence, but that money (as GSon said) is a big roadblock for the Tribe. According to Antonetti we would have had to make a separate move to bring in a guy like Beltran at $12-$13M. Pence will make more in 2013. Maybe if you did a buy and sell by moving Perez or Choo but not the eastiest salary to fit into the budget.

Sanchez was dealt for more than the Tribe had unless they dealt a top 5 spec. And no way Dempster would have accepted a trade here.

[ironmike]

Hermie, wrote ... Pence was traded for more than that. And as said, the money was a huge issue. No way the Indians could have afforded that, not with how crappy the fans are here.

Crappy or intelligent?

Sooner or later reality takes over the situation.

The fans aren't crappy, they just refuse to be fooled.

Put a winning product on the field and they will turn out. Did that not happen in the 90's or was that all a dream?

It starts with a good ownership group who knows how to build and follow the right business model, hire competent professionals who can evaluate and then it all works.

Hermie the more you post the more you expose yourself.

[GeronimoSon]

The Indians were forced to tear down what they built in the 90's for the simple reason the support for the club wasn't able to sustain the upward spiraling salaries. The astute businessman that Mr Jacobs was could see the writing on the wall and got out while the getting was good. To harken back to these 'good ole days' without reference to the massive "tear down" (after the 2001/2 season) is at best dis-ingenuine. At worst, whining..

Adjusting the salaries from that time period to today's market, the Indians would need to spend approximately $ 146 MM to equal what was being spent, on average, for those late 1990's teams. That would require the Indians to raise the average ticket price by a whopping 116 %. That's right.. more than double the current price. In an economy that has very limited discretionary spending, the cry for more spending has a subjective emotional appeal coupled with all the reality of a fiscal lynching of the fan base.

A family of four just can't spend $ 350 - $ 400 to go see a baseball game.. Open your eyes and realize the only means to a competitive end is the way the Indians are currently being operated.

[Rocky55]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

Pence was traded for more than that. And as said, the money was a huge issue. No way the Indians could have afforded that, not with how crappy the fans are here.

Sanchez...you are really downplaying that comp balance pick. Again, that pick would have been a Zach Eflin or Joey Gallo type player in this year's draft...or hell, could have been the difference between drafting Giolito vs Naquin with that extra $1.5M we'd of had to spend. Sure next year's draft doesn't look as strong, but all the more reason to have more money to get a top guy early round 1. No way do I touch Sanchez for that. Tribe would have had to dealt a guy like Dillon Howard to make up for that pick IMO.

The only one of the three that seemed gettable to me based on what they were dealt for was Pence, but that money (as GSon said) is a big roadblock for the Tribe. According to Antonetti we would have had to make a separate move to bring in a guy like Beltran at $12-$13M. Pence will make more in 2013. Maybe if you did a buy and sell by moving Perez or Choo but not the eastiest salary to fit into the budget.

Sanchez was dealt for more than the Tribe had unless they dealt a top 5 spec. And no way Dempster would have accepted a trade here.

The only way I'd call what Pence brought more than Marson & Haley is if you consider Schierholz an asset. I guess you could say Joseph was closer to Shoppach than Marson but I believe that the Phillies would rather have Marson back than Joseph.

Haley & Rosin are both hard throwing, "future middle relievers" who are having good years in A+ ball. Haley has more upside & is 2 yrs younger.

As far as the money is concerned, Hafner comes off the books after this season, minus the buyout. I'm pretty sure that Grady doesn't get $5 million next season. Choo, minus contention in the late season(maybe), gets traded by the trading deadline. Perez maybe also, with the same disclaimer. How small of a payroll do you expect?

Sickels sees Gorkys Hernandez as a future bech guy/defensive replacement for whom "It seems unlikely that Hernandez will hit enough to earn a regular job." Dime a dozen glove guy. Dog turds. Plus if you consider a draft pick in the mid 30's equal to a top 5 spec, it says more about our system than anything else. The extra money available for the draft pool may be an inducement but you have to spend it correctly. What if the Tribe had offered it's comp balance pick plus Luigi or Wolters or Myles?

As far as Dempster is concerned, if you'll read my post that you quoted, I not only agree that he wouldn't have accepted a trade here, I said it first.

Imagine though if we had traded for Pence & Sanchez, pryed Willingham away from Minny, added a mid rotation SP, with the addition of a healthy Carrasco? I know, if, if, if, but could that team compete next year? Are you sure?

[Hermie13]

Trade deadline come & gone. Some deals that could have been done:

Hunter Pence was traded for the equivalent of Marson & Trey Haley.

Gaby Sanchez was traded for dog turds & a "comp balance" pick.

Ryan Dempster was traded for a crappy A ball pitcher & a good 3B spec.

I think we could have done any & all of those deals except that Dempster might have vetoed. Pence wouldn't have.

Pence was traded for more than that. And as said, the money was a huge issue. No way the Indians could have afforded that, not with how crappy the fans are here.

Sanchez...you are really downplaying that comp balance pick. Again, that pick would have been a Zach Eflin or Joey Gallo type player in this year's draft...or hell, could have been the difference between drafting Giolito vs Naquin with that extra $1.5M we'd of had to spend. Sure next year's draft doesn't look as strong, but all the more reason to have more money to get a top guy early round 1. No way do I touch Sanchez for that. Tribe would have had to dealt a guy like Dillon Howard to make up for that pick IMO.

The only one of the three that seemed gettable to me based on what they were dealt for was Pence, but that money (as GSon said) is a big roadblock for the Tribe. According to Antonetti we would have had to make a separate move to bring in a guy like Beltran at $12-$13M. Pence will make more in 2013. Maybe if you did a buy and sell by moving Perez or Choo but not the eastiest salary to fit into the budget.

Sanchez was dealt for more than the Tribe had unless they dealt a top 5 spec. And no way Dempster would have accepted a trade here.

The only way I'd call what Pence brought more than Marson & Haley is if you consider Schierholz an asset. I guess you could say Joseph was closer to Shoppach than Marson but I believe that the Phillies would rather have Marson back than Joseph.

Haley & Rosin are both hard throwing, "future middle relievers" who are having good years in A+ ball. Haley has more upside & is 2 yrs younger.

As far as the money is concerned, Hafner comes off the books after this season, minus the buyout. I'm pretty sure that Grady doesn't get $5 million next season. Choo, minus contention in the late season(maybe), gets traded by the trading deadline. Perez maybe also, with the same disclaimer. How small of a payroll do you expect?

Sickels sees Gorkys Hernandez as a future bech guy/defensive replacement for whom "It seems unlikely that Hernandez will hit enough to earn a regular job." Dime a dozen glove guy. Dog turds. Plus if you consider a draft pick in the mid 30's equal to a top 5 spec, it says more about our system than anything else. The extra money available for the draft pool may be an inducement but you have to spend it correctly. What if the Tribe had offered it's comp balance pick plus Luigi or Wolters or Myles?

As far as Dempster is concerned, if you'll read my post that you quoted, I not only agree that he wouldn't have accepted a trade here, I said it first.

Imagine though if we had traded for Pence & Sanchez, pryed Willingham away from Minny, added a mid rotation SP, with the addition of a healthy Carrasco? I know, if, if, if, but could that team compete next year? Are you sure?

As a huge Marson fan, I still gotta disagree here. Carlos Ruiz has been one of the best catchers in baseball this year. Marson would be a backup there, nothing more and he is gonna be arby eligible this winter. Meanwhile Joseph is one of the top catching specs in baseball who has some great raw power. He is a guy who down the line could be their catcher of the future. Marson could eventually take over for Ruiz but will be almost a free agent himself by that time. Marson wouldn't have been a good fit in Philly and wouldn't have had the same kind of value, at least can't see it. Personally think Rosin is a better spec with a better future than Haley but a fair comp I guess (not familar enough with Rosin so will concede an even comp there), and I'm not a fan of Schierholz at all. Simply think you're vastly underrating Joseph. He's not a top 100 spec but he blows any catching spec we have out of the water and seems like the Phillies were more interested in getting a solid spec for Pence (rumors were they could flip some specs for help elsewhere) than getting a solid ML catcher who would be on the bench for the foreseeable future. Sure his hit tool could never develop and he may end up Shoppach as you hinted at but power hitting catchers are very valuable in this league. Just feel his value to a club like the Phillies was much higher than Marson.

As far as the money....yes, it will depend on what the Tribe does with players they have, but even with Hafner (minus $2.75M buyout), Lowe, and Sizemore off the books, the payroll is only going to go down roughly $10M from where it's at now. Sure they could deal Chris Perez (and think they should/will) and save another $7M. That would in theory open up enough money for a guy like Pence....but that's assuming the Indians can afford to get the payroll back to where it is now. Sounds like they are gonna be losing money this year. Plus, that leaves almost no room to add a much needed starting pitcher. Trading Choo would help money-wise as well, but you would need to get a very solid ML player in return or else you just swap Pence for Choo, which could be argued as a downgrade. Think too many people are just looking at the money that is coming off the books and forget about all the arby guys we have (Choo, Perez, Sipp, Marson, Hanny, Duncan, Brantley, Smith, Perez) that the payroll limitations could really come into play this winter.


As far as Sanchez deal....not a big Hernandez fan. Think he could become a starter but agree seems like a 4th outfielder at this point. Disagree that a mid-30s pick being a top 5 spec means you have a bad system though. A guy like Zach Eflin or Joey Gallo would likely be a top 5 pick in many systems. In our system guys like that could be argued as #2 specs (behind only Lindor). And no, I would not have traded a guy like Luigi or Wolters plus our comp pick for Sanchez. Sanchez has been TERRRIBLE for over a year. If you could have gotten him for a guy like Levon Washington maybe, but as much as I like Sanchez and was a fan of getting him before, he's simply too big a risk to be dealing valuable assets at this point. For his sake and the Pirates hope he can rebound I guess, but he was always only an average hitting 1B. Sure maybe you can argue he's an upgrade for us....but that's more an idication of how bad our 1Bs are, not that Sanchez is the answer.

As far as Dempster, wasn't trying to be argumentative there. You simply said Dempster "might have" vetoed...I said tehre was no chance of him not vetoing. He ended up blocking a deal to Atlanta....there was no "might have" about it.

[GeronimoSon]

Giving a clearer picture of the "money" situation, the Indians will have Choo ($9 MM), Brantley ($ 1 MM), Zeke ($ 0.5 MM), Chisenhall ($ 0.5 MM), Asdrubal ($ 6.5 MM), Kipnis ($ 0.5 MM) *a 1B or starting C* ($ 10 MM), Santana ($ 0.75 MM), Marson ($ 1.4 MM), CPerez ($ 7.5 MM), Vinnie P ($ 0.75 MM), Smittie ($ 3.5 MM), Cody ($ 0.5 MM), Esmil ($ 1.5 MM), Tomlin ($ 0.5 MM), Sipp ($ 0.5 MM), Ubaldo ($ 7.5 MM), Masterson ($ 7.5 MM), BOB ($ 7 MM), Carrasco ($ 0.75 MM), & Z-Mac ($ 0.5 MM) (20 players plus the Travis Hafner $ 2.75 MM buyout) and a handful of organizational filler players (5@$ 0.5 MM) accounting for approximately $ 72 - $ 74 MM. This represents another 10- 20 % increase in spending.. and that includes a 1B not named Kotchman..

The commitments for Pronk and Grady and Lowe, etc.. may go away, but, the team still has to fill the spots.. In the above, a $ 10 MM 1B or starting C is where the Indians will be spending their resources during the off season...

[Edible14]

The commitments for Pronk and Grady and Lowe, etc.. may go away, but, the team still has to fill the spots.. In the above, a $ 10 MM 1B or starting C is where the Indians will be spending their resources during the off season...

Why the hell would they spend $10M on a starting catcher? Even if you move Santana to 1B (where he really shouldn't be, because he's a solid defensive C and his value is higher there), Marson is a suitable starter. At least better than what will be out there on the free agent market, as good starting catchers tend to stay with the teams they're on.

The area that they should be spending resources on this off-season is pitching. I'm fine letting our usual host of journeymen and AAA players scrape it out for a the starting LF and 1B spots. Maybe we'll get lucky and fill one of them adequately on the cheap, and only need to go out and get one at the deadline next year. But this team cannot compete this year without some upgrades in the rotation.

[Rocky55]

The commitments for Pronk and Grady and Lowe, etc.. may go away, but, the team still has to fill the spots.. In the above, a $ 10 MM 1B or starting C is where the Indians will be spending their resources during the off season...

Why the hell would they spend $10M on a starting catcher? Even if you move Santana to 1B (where he really shouldn't be, because he's a solid defensive C and his value is higher there), Marson is a suitable starter. At least better than what will be out there on the free agent market, as good starting catchers tend to stay with the teams they're on.

The area that they should be spending resources on this off-season is pitching. I'm fine letting our usual host of journeymen and AAA players scrape it out for a the starting LF and 1B spots. Maybe we'll get lucky and fill one of them adequately on the cheap, and only need to go out and get one at the deadline next year. But this team cannot compete this year without some upgrades in the rotation.

Agree & disagree Edible. Getting Pence & Willingham in my model would necessitate moving Choo & Perez. The projected money isn't even but it's close(ish). I would agree with Santana at 1B & Marson at C. Hermie argueably is correct when he calls the Pence/Choo swap a downgrade except against LHPs. Getting both Pence & Willingham at least gives us a chance against lefties. Plus, Choo is gone regardless so we will probably get more for him over the winter with a whole season's play as a sweetener.

Where I disagree with you is that I don't believe that all of the offseason resources should be spent on pitching. Unless you can land a FOR guy, Hermie's suggestion of an Edwin Jackson type(BTW, I lobbied for a Jackson signing last yr also) is what we need/can afford. Shelby Miller was being offered after a rough patch(that ship may have sailed) & he's the type we may have to target to get anywhere near a FOR guy. Of course if we could land one I'd be ecstatic.

[Edible14]

Eh... I don't know. If you can get a good upgrade for those positions affordably, obviously do it. I'm not saying don't spend any money elsewhere (but I am saying spending it at catcher would be stupid). But I don't see getting a guy like Carlos Pena (who would be in that price range), helping us nearly as much as getting a solid starter for that money.

[Hermie13]

Giving a clearer picture of the "money" situation, the Indians will have Choo ($9 MM), Brantley ($ 1 MM), Zeke ($ 0.5 MM), Chisenhall ($ 0.5 MM), Asdrubal ($ 6.5 MM), Kipnis ($ 0.5 MM) *a 1B or starting C* ($ 10 MM), Santana ($ 0.75 MM), Marson ($ 1.4 MM), CPerez ($ 7.5 MM), Vinnie P ($ 0.75 MM), Smittie ($ 3.5 MM), Cody ($ 0.5 MM), Esmil ($ 1.5 MM), Tomlin ($ 0.5 MM), Sipp ($ 0.5 MM), Ubaldo ($ 7.5 MM), Masterson ($ 7.5 MM), BOB ($ 7 MM), Carrasco ($ 0.75 MM), & Z-Mac ($ 0.5 MM) (20 players plus the Travis Hafner $ 2.75 MM buyout) and a handful of organizational filler players (5@$ 0.5 MM) accounting for approximately $ 72 - $ 74 MM. This represents another 10- 20 % increase in spending.. and that includes a 1B not named Kotchman..

The commitments for Pronk and Grady and Lowe, etc.. may go away, but, the team still has to fill the spots.. In the above, a $ 10 MM 1B or starting C is where the Indians will be spending their resources during the off season...

I hope you're right and the Tribe goes into the $72-74M range, but have my doubts on that. Before this season I'd have said absolutely, but never thought the fan support would be this bad. Wasn't expecting miracles at the turnstiles, but definitely better than what we've seen.

Decent breakdown overall but should be noted that Sipp is arby eligible so will be making more than $500K. Likely will be around $1.5M or so (won't break the bank obviously). Ubaldo's option is only for $5.75M. Carmona/Hernandez's option is now only $6M after restructuring. Santana is signed for $0.55M as part of his new deal.

Think some of your arby estimates are off (especially Masterson and Smith), but it's early obviously and never know how things will pan out. I do think $10M or so is what the Tribe will have to spend though (unless they move Perez and/or Choo).

[Hermie13]

Agree & disagree Edible. Getting Pence & Willingham in my model would necessitate moving Choo & Perez. The projected money isn't even but it's close(ish). I would agree with Santana at 1B & Marson at C. Hermie argueably is correct when he calls the Pence/Choo swap a downgrade except against LHPs. Getting both Pence & Willingham at least gives us a chance against lefties. Plus, Choo is gone regardless so we will probably get more for him over the winter with a whole season's play as a sweetener.

Where I disagree with you is that I don't believe that all of the offseason resources should be spent on pitching. Unless you can land a FOR guy, Hermie's suggestion of an Edwin Jackson type(BTW, I lobbied for a Jackson signing last yr also) is what we need/can afford. Shelby Miller was being offered after a rough patch(that ship may have sailed) & he's the type we may have to target to get anywhere near a FOR guy. Of course if we could land one I'd be ecstatic.

The salaries may come somewhat close next year depending what our guys get in arby (though could be a $5M difference still), but this year the difference is very big (something I think that's been overlooked). Willingham and Pence make $17.4M combined this year. Choo and Perez only make $9.4M combined. $8M difference...sure the season is over half over but you're still talking about adding millions to the payroll this year, which we'd like to think would be easy to do, but I'm not so sure it would have been.

Also, guess I just didn't/don't see how getting Willingham and Pence was ever feasible either. Willingham wasn't traded anywhere at the deadline. He's signed for 2 more years to a team that's getting healthy and playing well. Twins could have more than the Indians to spend this winter. If they get some starting pitching, they could be a playoff team next season. Would love to get willingham, but we'd have to part with a ton to get him. Sure on paper I'd probably swap out Perez and Choo for Pence and Willingham....but the salaries didn't line up this year at all(Lindor may have had to go to get Willingham) and salary.

I definitely think the Indians need to be creative this winter if they want to compete (thinking that's what you and others are mostly getting at). Choo would appear to be one of our best trade chips, and Perez making a lot would seemingly be on the block as well. Agree with you completely that all the resources shouldn't be spent on pitching this winter too, but do agree with Edible that it's the biggest area of concern though.


I do think this winter's free agent OF crop could play well into the Tribe's hands. Maybe it's just me, but i like the group of potential free agents this year a lot better overall than the ones last year. Seems like a much deeper group so hopefully the Tribe will be able to get one to come here (if they pursue that route), and hopefully at a reasonable price.

[daingean]

One note is that the Tribe also paid $500K to buy Grady out then signed him for $5mil. Which really makes him cost the Tribe $5.5mil this season. I know it's just and extra $500K but that could be a little extra to sign a FA.