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Indians Absolute NONSENSE

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Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:16 pm

Everyone associated with the Lillibridge deal should be made to explain if they were drinking on the job.

Everyone associated with not giving Wiillingham a 3 year deal should be made to explain if they were drinking on the job.

We are enduring absolute management idiocy.

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Re: Indians Absolut NONSENSE

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:35 pm

Agree Bob - not signing Willingham was extremely short sighted.... I see NO REASON for Lillibridge to be on this team. The F.O has a sick fascination with the scrap heap "one mans trash is another mans treasure" philosophy. I love the players and root my guts out for them, but I cannot wait for the day when Dolan sells the team and the F.O is restructured/fired.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:05 pm

In the team surveys I get from the Indians they keep asking how important it is for ownership to share their vision of the team. I say - very important. Just what is the vision? Tonight is pitiful. The story will be the runs Masterson gave up. The real story is that once the Twins scored 3 runs - the game was over.

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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby timdav » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:57 pm

Don't know about the drafts since Bud Grant has been with the Tribe, but the 7 to 10 years before that was mostly awful....highly unsuccessful. Their own minor league player development success is the foundation of the team's success.

And, the C.C. & Cliff Lee trades have been disasterous. The Victor to Boston trade basically got us Masterson, right?

Non-stop fireworks and other promotions only have limited value.

As it's been said, I'm sure the folks in the Indians' front office are nice people who really want to succeed and have a tough, challenging job.

But, obviously....their plan isn't working in the standings. Keep up more of the same: the lack of field success, and it will eventually hurt the business side of the Indians organization. When it hurts $$$$-enough, THEN they'll make needed moves.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby indians1 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:06 am

I just don't understand the indians FO decision making. They decide after half a season that they have an ace or a #2 pitcher in masterson to trade for ubaldo. The only problem is that masterson had no track record and the indians made the trade thinking this was their window.

Well, they banked on grady and hafner being healthy and a productive carlos santana. Grady and hafner have been injured and santana- while better as of late is no where close to where he was projected.

Now, they didn't sign willingham even though they saw this window as a 2-3 year chance to win. And they chose to sign johnny damon and re-sign shelly duncun. What sense does that make. NO consistency.

The core of talent was kipnis, santana, chisenhall, pomeranz, and white. They were fooling themselves thinking they could win with what they had now still with no depth in their farm system. Small market team's core usually come from their farm system.

The core of talent of choo, asdrubal, ubaldo, masterson are not going to win you a championship.

I would really entertain trading asdrubal in the offseason because you have depth there. He is a guy that is gaining weight and is not as good defensively. To me- he isn't a difference maker. You can get some quality players back from another team.

Now we 4 years into a new guy running the drafts and we are still wondering if we have the right guy in brad grant. I don't think because he is better than mirabelli - that should be the criteria for success. Alex white and pomeranz still haven' t proven themselves. We passed on chris sale and mike trout.

Again- i will never fault the dolans for not spending enough money. I think they have put up the money. I think where they have failed is who they hire to run the scouting and drafting and developing. We are never going to sign the 20 million/ year guy, but they can' t have it both ways. If you aren't going to spend the money on big free agents, then you have to be better than your counterparts at drafting impact guys that you have control over for 5-7 years.

that is how the indians of the 90's did it. NOt by spending money foolishly in free agency.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby daingean » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:56 pm

I certainly give Antonetti a F for this offseason. I think he tried but not getting a RH hitter (i.e. Willingham) was a problem that cannot be overlooked. He did try but the Kotchman and Damon signings have fallen on their faces. The Lowe acquisition was better especially early but we are still covering $5mil of his salary and while it looked good early it's not so strong now. And $5Mil for Sizemore falls short.

I disagree with "The core of talent of choo, asdrubal, ubaldo, masterson are not going to win you a championship" because I think it can but it needs more pieces. We have way below average production from 2 offensive positions in 1B and LF.

I like Grant's drafts for the most part. I prefer using the Tampa Bay model in drafting though (i.e. drafting tools as opposed to closest to being ready). Not that happy with Naquin (at least not at 15) but really like McClure and McAdams plus the pitchers this year.

I am just saying that CA must do better this off season.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:29 pm

Signing Willingham would have been locking him up from ages 33 to 35, far from the peak years of 26-29 of offensive players. Willingham had a track record of mediocre to good play going into this season. It was very reasonable to expect some regression in Willingham over this 3 year contract, given that he's getting older and wasn't even that good in the first place. His OPS was gradually declining from a peak of .863 when he was 30 years old (in 2009).

What Willingham is doing in 2012 is a statistical outlier and nearly impossible to predict. He's having an amazing season. Good for him. If the Indians make a habit of offering 3 year, $21MM contracts to 33 year old outfielders that have only decent track records, they will be losers more often than not. I didn't see this kind of reaction from people when Willingham wasn't signed. Only now, with the benefit of hindsight, are people vigorously criticizing Antonetti.

Lets not forget the Indians put a very strong offer on Carlos Beltran, but he did not want to play in Cleveland. Can't fault Antonetti for that.

I about wanted to puke after reading Tony's Sunday piece this afternoon. Couldn't disagree anymore with the guy.

This team was built for 2012 and 2013. Now that the time is here, the Indians are below .500 and tied for the 2nd worst run differential in the American League. This team should be buyers? With what are they going to buy? Without trading from MLB talent, all they have that could acquire impact talent is Lindor and Chisenhall. Deplete an already weak system for about a 5-15% chance of making the playoffs (citing the pythagorean stats and probabilities which state the Indians current chances of 4.2% of making the playoffs). I don't see the catalysts (return of Carrasco? Santana improving?) to make this team in 2013 any better; the farm system has nothing to contribute and good free agents won't sign here.

It's time to build for 2014 and beyond.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:42 am

OhioBaseball wrote:Signing Willingham would have been locking him up from ages 33 to 35, far from the peak years of 26-29 of offensive players. Willingham had a track record of mediocre to good play going into this season. It was very reasonable to expect some regression in Willingham over this 3 year contract, given that he's getting older and wasn't even that good in the first place. His OPS was gradually declining from a peak of .863 when he was 30 years old (in 2009).

What Willingham is doing in 2012 is a statistical outlier and nearly impossible to predict. He's having an amazing season. Good for him. If the Indians make a habit of offering 3 year, $21MM contracts to 33 year old outfielders that have only decent track records, they will be losers more often than not. I didn't see this kind of reaction from people when Willingham wasn't signed. Only now, with the benefit of hindsight, are people vigorously criticizing Antonetti.


This is all true. I know it's super easy to criticize in hindsight, but not signing Willingham was completely justifiable at the time it was done. There were people out there comparing a potential Willingham signing to the signing of Jason Michaels, David Delucci, etc. And there was good reason to suspect as much. Not to mention that since we were (at the time) pencilling in Grady in CF and Brantley in LF, Willingham would have had to play 1B where he is a liability. Yes, there were some people expressing some disappointment at the time but I guarantee that if we got Beltran or Pena we wouldn't be caring about Josh Willingham hardly at all.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:10 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Signing Willingham would have been locking him up from ages 33 to 35, far from the peak years of 26-29 of offensive players. Willingham had a track record of mediocre to good play going into this season. It was very reasonable to expect some regression in Willingham over this 3 year contract, given that he's getting older and wasn't even that good in the first place. His OPS was gradually declining from a peak of .863 when he was 30 years old (in 2009).

What Willingham is doing in 2012 is a statistical outlier and nearly impossible to predict. He's having an amazing season. Good for him. If the Indians make a habit of offering 3 year, $21MM contracts to 33 year old outfielders that have only decent track records, they will be losers more often than not. I didn't see this kind of reaction from people when Willingham wasn't signed. Only now, with the benefit of hindsight, are people vigorously criticizing Antonetti.

Lets not forget the Indians put a very strong offer on Carlos Beltran, but he did not want to play in Cleveland. Can't fault Antonetti for that.

I about wanted to puke after reading Tony's Sunday piece this afternoon. Couldn't disagree anymore with the guy.

This team was built for 2012 and 2013. Now that the time is here, the Indians are below .500 and tied for the 2nd worst run differential in the American League. This team should be buyers? With what are they going to buy? Without trading from MLB talent, all they have that could acquire impact talent is Lindor and Chisenhall. Deplete an already weak system for about a 5-15% chance of making the playoffs (citing the pythagorean stats and probabilities which state the Indians current chances of 4.2% of making the playoffs). I don't see the catalysts (return of Carrasco? Santana improving?) to make this team in 2013 any better; the farm system has nothing to contribute and good free agents won't sign here.

It's time to build for 2014 and beyond.


Thank you. Finally a voice of reason amidst all these knee jerk reactions.

Willingham still has no defensive value to speak of and that was one of the reasons the Indians didn't go all out for him. Like you said, it's easy to critisize in hindsight.

As far as what needs to be done now, I'm not really sure. Part of me says to stick with this team and make some under the radar moves that might help the next couple of years, but then the other part of me wants to blow this thing up completely and do it Marlins style. Trade away Choo, Perez, Masterson, Asdrubal and all other spare parts (Hannahan, Donald, Kotchman, Lowe, Damon, Marson). Load up on prospects at AA and above, and gear the team towards 2014. I'd keep Hafner and Jimenez, simply because they don't have much trade value and won't be under contract that much longer.

It would hurt a lot feelings if the Tribe were to hold a fire sale and most, if not all, casual fans would run for the hills or call for FO and ownership to be lynched, but unless you want to toil in semi-hopeful but never really more than .500 seasons, it probably needs to be done.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:50 pm

JP_Frost wrote:As far as what needs to be done now, I'm not really sure. Part of me says to stick with this team and make some under the radar moves that might help the next couple of years, but then the other part of me wants to blow this thing up completely and do it Marlins style. Trade away Choo, Perez, Masterson, Asdrubal and all other spare parts (Hannahan, Donald, Kotchman, Lowe, Damon, Marson). Load up on prospects at AA and above, and gear the team towards 2014. I'd keep Hafner and Jimenez, simply because they don't have much trade value and won't be under contract that much longer.

It would hurt a lot feelings if the Tribe were to hold a fire sale and most, if not all, casual fans would run for the hills or call for FO and ownership to be lynched, but unless you want to toil in semi-hopeful but never really more than .500 seasons, it probably needs to be done.


I agree on some crazy knee jerk reactions from some on this thread. Willingham would have been nice but could be really regretting it in a year or too. I remember when the Phillies signed Raul Ibanez and after half a year the deal looked amazing...then age caught up and they couldn't wait to get him off the books (and that's a large market). 2 guaranteed years was more than fair for Willingham and a smart offer. More power to him for getting 3 from the Twins (why they were buyers this winter, I'll never know).

I disagree a bit though on selling. IMO you absolutely can NOT trade Asdrubal this summer. I have obviously been one of his biggest critics on this board, but the guy actually agreed to sign an extention that takes him INTO his free agent years (ok, just year). Trading him 3 months later sends not only a bad message to the fans, but to your players. What's the incentive to sign extensions with the Tribe when you're 2-3 years from free agency if the team will just turn around and trade you that summer?

I can understand Choo and Perez. Choo has been reluctant to sign and has Boras. Perez is getting expensive at a position you shouldn't waste money at (closer). I could maybe even get behind dealing Masterson....but can't deal Cabrera. At least not IMO.

Also disagree Strongly that Marson is a spare part.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:53 pm

Marson is a backup catcher, putting up good numbers this year. He could be a starter for some teams, but he's he's not an everyday player in terms of value.

I mentioned Cabrera because if you do decide to sell, you should do it right. Cabrera could bring in a very good return, which is why he should be considered as trade bait if you go for a firesale.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:20 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Marson is a backup catcher, putting up good numbers this year. He could be a starter for some teams, but he's he's not an everyday player in terms of value.

I mentioned Cabrera because if you do decide to sell, you should do it right. Cabrera could bring in a very good return, which is why he should be considered as trade bait if you go for a firesale.


I'd like you to consider where that would put us for the next 3 years at shortstop. Your options are now Jason Donald, Juan Diaz and the free agent wire. I'd only consider trading ACab if the value back was astonishing. I'm talking Giancarlo Stanton as a starting point astonishing.

As for Marson, I'm a bit curious as to his value right now. The Indians I think are taking the right approach by keeping Santana there - he's the future, that's where he's most valuable, and he needs reps there to improve his defense. Marson's value right now has to be at an all-time high, and I'd be interested to see what kind of value he would fetch in a trade. Because for the amount of at-bats he's getting, it seems like there's not a big difference between having him there or Pagnozzi/Carlin or even Roberto Perez. If the Indians decide to buy (and they probably won't), he might be a good 2nd or third piece in a trade.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:34 pm

I think you can find a serviceable shortstop to hold it down for Lindor. That said, I'm not advocating a Cabrera trade for crap. I'm just saying that if the Indians do decide to rebuild, Cabrera should be on the table as well. Also, Stanton for Cabrera is basically a wash and I doubt that any team would give up a Stanton type of player plus extra's.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:35 pm

Nonsense is defined as having no intelligible meaning.. Does absolutely having no intelligible meaning define the Indians?... Perhaps the thread title is more about provocation than objectivity... The Indians find themselves in a catch 22 situation..they aren't good enough to compete with the way the guys on the team are playing now and the Indians can't lose the guys on the team for less prepared guys for the purpose of improving performance now... Simply put.. if the guys who are here now.. are unable to improve, then they're lost.. done.. finis... over.. next year has arrived...

..'but are they?.. unable?.. maybe not.. There was a response about the Sunday article (after getting past being busy, a walk, and someone else writing & who knows what else).. that said.. here are the five things the Indians need to do:

1. Trade Choo for Sterling Marte as being reported by
Ingraham in the News Herald (Let's face it, Choo is gone
after 2013). Let's get a 5 tool player for 6 more years for 1
1/2 years of Choo).

2. Make Chris Perez the cornerstone of a trade for Juston
Upton. Instead of trading Lindor or Aguilar, make Perez
(who is contract friendly) the cornerstone of the deal.
Obviously, Pestano becomes our closer and Allen fits the
set up role. This way, we have Brantley, Marte, and Upton
are our outfielders with Chisenhall, Cabrera, Kipnis, and
Santana as our core infielders

3. Move Santana to first and make Marson the everyday. The
Kostchman signing was a mistake albeit for 1 year). Move
Carlos to 1st and make Marson our everyday catcher.

4. Bring up Kluber and send Josh Tomlin down. At some
point, we can't consistenty be down 2-3 runs before we even
come to back. Unfortunatly for Josh, Baseball is a
business. You either produce or you don't. Sorry.

5. When Fausto (er, Roberto) is ready, release Lowe. After his
shutout on May 15, its been nothing but down hill.


On:

1. I'd prefer a deal with the Rangers that doesn't include Jurickson Profar or Martin Perez, their # 1 and # 2 prospects. Mike Olt, Leonys Martin and Justin Grimm may be better targets and all are ML ready or near ML ready players. They could slot into the Indians lineup almost immediately...

2. Fully disagree with trading for the highly talented and inconsistent performing Justin Upton.. it's a stop gap measure that is expensive and short lived.. think of a trade for justin upton like a wild ride on a roller coaster.. 1 1/2 minutes later & that 2 hour wait in line to get on the damn ride still wasn't worth it.. CP can be traded.. but for the right player(s).

3. The only part of this suggestion that I agree with is to put carlos santana in one spot, and LEAVE HIM THERE.

4. Kluber in - Tomlin out.. okay, but, Lowe is worse.. why not Kluber in - Lowe out.. and not wait for BOB?..


Maybe there are other 'must do's' to add to the list.. thoughts?
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby nubballguy » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:03 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Nonsense is defined as having no intelligible meaning.. Does absolutely having no intelligible meaning define the Indians?... Perhaps the thread title is more about provocation than objectivity... The Indians find themselves in a catch 22 situation..they aren't good enough to compete with the way the guys on the team are playing now and the Indians can't lose the guys on the team for less prepared guys for the purpose of improving performance now... Simply put.. if the guys who are here now.. are unable to improve, then they're lost.. done.. finis... over.. next year has arrived...

..'but are they?.. unable?.. maybe not.. There was a response about the Sunday article (after getting past being busy, a walk, and someone else writing & who knows what else).. that said.. here are the five things the Indians need to do:

1. Trade Choo for Sterling Marte as being reported by
Ingraham in the News Herald (Let's face it, Choo is gone
after 2013). Let's get a 5 tool player for 6 more years for 1
1/2 years of Choo).

2. Make Chris Perez the cornerstone of a trade for Juston
Upton. Instead of trading Lindor or Aguilar, make Perez
(who is contract friendly) the cornerstone of the deal.
Obviously, Pestano becomes our closer and Allen fits the
set up role. This way, we have Brantley, Marte, and Upton
are our outfielders with Chisenhall, Cabrera, Kipnis, and
Santana as our core infielders

3. Move Santana to first and make Marson the everyday. The
Kostchman signing was a mistake albeit for 1 year). Move
Carlos to 1st and make Marson our everyday catcher.

4. Bring up Kluber and send Josh Tomlin down. At some
point, we can't consistenty be down 2-3 runs before we even
come to back. Unfortunatly for Josh, Baseball is a
business. You either produce or you don't. Sorry.

5. When Fausto (er, Roberto) is ready, release Lowe. After his
shutout on May 15, its been nothing but down hill.


On:

1. I'd prefer a deal with the Rangers that doesn't include Jurickson Profar or Martin Perez, their # 1 and # 2 prospects. Mike Olt, Leonys Martin and Justin Grimm may be better targets and all are ML ready or near ML ready players. They could slot into the Indians lineup almost immediately...

2. Fully disagree with trading for the highly talented and inconsistent performing Justin Upton.. it's a stop gap measure that is expensive and short lived.. think of a trade for justin upton like a wild ride on a roller coaster.. 1 1/2 minutes later & that 2 hour wait in line to get on the damn ride still wasn't worth it.. CP can be traded.. but for the right player(s).

3. The only part of this suggestion that I agree with is to put carlos santana in one spot, and LEAVE HIM THERE.

4. Kluber in - Tomlin out.. okay, but, Lowe is worse.. why not Kluber in - Lowe out.. and not wait for BOB?..


Maybe there are other 'must do's' to add to the list.. thoughts?


On another thread I said pretty much the same thing on bringing in Marte and possibly Upton, the main difference was I thought having Allen in the closer's role was the better way to go. I also thought that the savings on expiring contracts might be able to get us a FA top of the line RH bat at 1st for the '13 season. Santana stays behind the plate. I also said Kluber needs to be utilized.

All that said, I don't know about prospects out there like a lot of you guys do, if Texas has better near ML ready options to trade with or matches up better than I'm all for it regardless of who exactly it is.

The key, in my way of thinking, is to move aggressively to try to significantly upgrade the team with additions at the top of the roster rather than supplant what we have in the current bottom up strategy we've employed as a way to compete in this current "window" of opportunity we've set ourselves up for since the UJ trade last year. A willingness to swing for the fences to reach the playoffs is needed even if it means falling flat because being a .500 team isn't going to get us there. Time to really push for '13 in particular.
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:08 am

...I also thought that the savings on expiring contracts might be able to get us a FA top of the line RH bat at 1st for the '13 season. Santana stays behind the plate. I also said Kluber needs to be utilized....


InRe RH'ers: The free agent market for RH bats in 2013 is interesting, but pretty much bone dry at 1B. Kevin Youkilis if he is not resigned by the CWSox may be the best FA option.. OF'ers Melky Cabrera, BJ Upton and Cody Ross could be of interest.. Josh Hamilton, a lefty, will be too expensive..

SP FA's in 2013 could be two guys.. Francisco Liriano (recently rented by the CWSox) and Brandon McCarthy...

Not really a lot to consider at this time... I did read your posting both here as well as in "MLB Trade Deadline".. It's a well conceived / cogent argument for taking risks while understanding the caveats involved... :cool
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Re: Indians Absolute NONSENSE

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:49 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Marson is a backup catcher, putting up good numbers this year. He could be a starter for some teams, but he's he's not an everyday player in terms of value.

I mentioned Cabrera because if you do decide to sell, you should do it right. Cabrera could bring in a very good return, which is why he should be considered as trade bait if you go for a firesale.


That's one way to look at it with Marson. The other is that he's a backup catcher who is finally putting up the numbers that scouts thought he could when he was rated the 66th best prospect in all of baseball a couple years ago. With the lack of good catchers in baseball right now, Marson could start for a good number of teams (a team like Tampa Bay would be a perfect spot if you wanted to move him). Took Salty a long time to finally develop into a starting catcher.

I actually think there's a chance you could see Marson as the starting catcher in Cleveland eventually (with Santana moving to 1B or OF). I still say he a bit like Jason Kendall. Won't have that high an OBP or that many steals, but a .340 OBP with 10-15 steals from the catcher spot with solid defense. Maybe I'm overrating him, but still think he can be a top 15 catcher in this league. He is still young (younger than Santana) and that walk rate is something we've seen him do throughout his minor league career (so not like it came out of nowhere). Maybe his trade value isn't that high, but his value to Cleveland should be pretty darn high IMO.


I think you could move Cabrera; I just don't think you can (or I guess should) do it this summer. If this winter things are looking good, not able to bring in pieces to help you win in 2013 or whatnot, then ok I could see moving him. He'd still have 2 years left and a ton of value. SS market won't be very strong this winter. And obviously could hold on to him next summer when he's still a year and a half away from free agency. Just think trading him now sends a very bad message to not just the fans, but the players in the organization.
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