Ending 2012

[Bearcatbob]

This year is toast. This team is nowhere near being a contender. It is time for changes, I would start with Damon. Hey Johnny we love ya - but bye bye. If we have to suffer another non hitting lefty - lets see if it is Federoff.

If we have to suffer a lousy pitcher - let it be Kulber and not Lowe.

If we do not accept lousy performance - send Tomlin to Columbus and replace hims with anything better than a bag of balls.

Lillibridge - barf me. He must simply be a management joke on the faithful.

This dream season has ended. Let's go for next year.

Bob

[Chiefroy]

white sox just traded for liriano, so at least we won't have to vainly flail away at him tomorrow. no doubt they'll have another guy i never heard of come up to finish us off.

wow. any optimism i felt after the big win vs verlander has been totally crushed in the last 2 days. total fail by our starting pitching and our offense to the freaking twins. willingham having a fantastic year, doumit a solid one. watching another game on tv and seeing homers from cuddyer and ludwick(2)...both of whom would be leading our team in homers. these were a few of the guys people here were hoping we'd add this past offseason. i was lukewarm on them all, but probably liking cuddyer the most. but johnny damon? aaron cunningham? total fail by our gm. i almost never bash our gm or ownership, but the last 2 games have been too much for me.

how the fuck can everyone and his brother know for at least the past 2 seasons that we needed some righthanded hitting and we sign a washed up lefty and a piece of shit righty like cunningham? i won't even bash the lillibridge pick-up because it was probably an upgrade....but he sucks, too. i stuck by shapiro. i stuck by wedge, well until nearly the end. i thought we gave up too much for jimenez, but i trusted the front office knew what they were doing. but as the deadline nears, i'm not sure i trust them to make a trade. we needed starting pitching and they give us kevin slowey. the brilliant move to sign derek lowe ain't looking so good anymore. what are the odds lowe and damon never play another season? cleveland is once again becoming the place for old players to go and die. hafner and sizemore are two of my favorite indians ever, but we'll need their roster spots next year. it saddens me to finally admit that.

we need to clear a lot of roster space for next season, because i agree bob. this year is toast. we can't put together any kind of winning streak with this current roster. the longest streak we've had all year is 4 wins, and right now i don't think we could even beat columbus 4 in a row. so what should we do?

they've said they don't want to trade for a "rental" player and i'm okay with that. if we do make a last-minute deal, it has to be with an eye on next year. our needs are obvious and have been for some time. imo, it is most critical to get a front-of-the-rotation starter. when our "ace" has a mid-4 era, he ain't no ace. no more faith that masterson or jimenez will be "the" guy next year. they're at best 2-3 and one of mcallister, carrasco, and maybe even carmona could pass either by next season. but i want a #1 who is more of a sure thing than anyone we currently have. if it takes money, SPEND. if it takes trading ANYBODY, trade ANYBODY....but wait until the off-season. i don't want to trade someone like choo right now because we have no one to replace him. don't fuck up RF to fix SP. 2nd priority - 1st base....fuck casey kotchman. i never, ever liked that signing. i'd be bringing goedert, laporta, canzler in that order to see how they do. i'm already guessing laporta would suck, but oh well. we'll probably need to SPEND on a FA 1B, but give the farm a chance, at least. 3rd priority - LF.....give Fedroff his chance. i mean, wtf do guys like him and goedert have to do? if they flop, they flop. at least we'll know and can prepare to sign someone after the season ends. this shit ain't rocket science. 4th priority - 3B....i solve this easy next season. the job is chisenhall's. i don't really want to trade for headley right now because he's not gonna win us the 2012 World Series and i think we already have the guy for 3B next year. of course, we could use chiz in a trade, but we'd probably not be getting enough value for him. he's still an unknown quantity, but i think he's a keeper. and if he fails, there's always jack h. . 5th priority - bench.... i not too worried that they'll screw this one up...again. we can certainly upgrade guys like lopez and lilli with our farm or off the scrapheap. carrera, fedroff, goedert, neal, even if they can't start, they don't have to do much to be better options than what we have now. and we ALWAYS will have shelly duncan. i take comfort in that.

[Prosecutor]

I can see them clearing the decks after this season. So long Damon, Duncan, Hannahan, Kotchman, and Lopez. Goodbye to Lowe, Grady, Roberto Hernandez, and Pronk. Thanks for everything, Travis, but we just can't have a DH who hits .125 with RISP and won't drive in 50 runs this year.

My plan is to replace the unproductive veterans listed above with guys from Columbus that would be a lot cheaper but give similar production. For example, replace Damon with Zeke Carerra. Replace Duncan with Fedroff. Replace Pronk with Goedert.

The financial savings from these moves should give the Tribe the wherewithal to sign one significant bat (at first base, preferably) and one decent starting pitcher. Don't ask me who they are - I don't know who will be available.

But the plan is to replace unproductive, aging veterans with much cheaper guys from Columbus, which frees up money, and add in the money freed up by Lowe, Hafner, and Grady to put together enough to sign a Willingham and an upgrade at starting pitcher.

The offfense should be decent:

C Santana
1B Free agent (use part of $20M available from Hafner, Lowe and Sizemore contracts)
2B Kipnis
SS Droobs
3B Chiz
LF Fedroff or Zeke
CF Brantley
RF Choo
DH Goedert or free agent

Rotation:

Masterson
Ubaldo
McAlister
Free agent (using the rest of the $20 million)
Carrasco, Gomez, or Kluber

[Bearcatbob]

excellent analysis

[ironmike]

Prosecutor, your love for prospects aside. You won't compete with what you present a line up with Goedert, Federoff and the rest of your unproven bunch, namely Chisenhall.

This team needs 3 professional hitters with playoff experience added to its core, plus another proven pitcher the caliber of Ubaldo and Masterson. Carrasco is coming back, they'll give Carmona another shot and the rest of the guys will fill out the 8 starters every team needs to compete in a season. Not saying Carmona wins a job, not saying Tomlin or Lowe are back either. Might need another pitcher too.

What this team lacks the most is an impact, igniter type at the top of the order, a guy who can distrubt, run the bases, bring intangibles and score 100+ runs. This team does not and cannot take the game or put pressure on the other team and go in attack mode on offense. With only 11 million on the books next year, the Indians CAN build a team for less than $85 million and have all the parts, be balanced, compete and give their farm system the time it needs to develop.

Trying to win with unknown rookies is a horrible way to try to compete, it flat out does not work.

Get three professional hitters who can make an impact, then watch how much guys like Santana improve dramatically when the pressure is off. Watch how quickly the starting pitching improves when they are confident their team can score runs. Seen all of this before. The key to all of this is to have balance and keep the funnel full at the minor league level. Fix the big team first at all cost and then fill in the rest.

Who cares if Columbus wins the IL title ... Scott Leo???
They need to WIN to bring the fans back, they can't be fooled.

[Edible14]

Why get rid of Hafner? He's good at what he does and he'll likely come fairly cheap next season. And if we're out of it again next year, he'll be decent trade bait assuming he's not injured. I'd like to see Goedert get a chance as well but let's not just slot the guy in at DH for a year when he's never seen a major league pitch.

I know there's a lot of frustration on the year-to-year rental guys like Damon, Kearns, Lowe, etc... but that's really where this front office has made some key moves over the years. Either by getting guys that they can flip for value (see: Kearns for McAllister), or getting guys that legitimately hold down a roster spot (see: Jack Hannahan). I don't see that strategy going away, though they should really refrain from dealing prospects for said players. I don't think we would really be a much different team with Ryan Spillbourghs taking Cunningham's spot on the opening day roster, but perhaps still having Cory Burns and Josh Judy would be nice. Similarly, shuttling Putnam off for Slowey was a questionable move at the time, and looks no better in retrospect. I don't know that any of those relievers would be helping the big league team, but the type of players they got in return are not the type of players that really need to be traded for ever.

[homerawayfromhome]

Wow! What a horrible offseason the Tribe had. I had forgot about those three (Burns, Judy, and Putnam) not that they are that good, but the Tribe gave them away. Cpl that with not landing Willingham and it shows just how poorly it went.

[Prosecutor]

Prosecutor, your love for prospects aside. You won't compete with what you present a line up with Goedert, Federoff and the rest of your unproven bunch, namely Chisenhall.

The idea is that Goedert and Fedroff will be the two worst hitters in the lineup and they will cost nothing. They replace Damon and Hafner in LF and DH and supply the same offensive numbers, hell, probably better. I think Goedert can hit better than .229 with 45 RBI's, which is what we'll get from Pronk this year. Fedroff is hitting .390 in Columbus. I'm sure he can more than match what we're getting from Damon.

Take the $12 million saved by dumping Damon and Hafner, plus Grady's $5 million, and use that to sign a big time bat at first base, one of those "professional hitters" you're talking about, and a "proven starter".

This team needs 3 professional hitters with playoff experience added to its core, plus another proven pitcher the caliber of Ubaldo and Masterson. Carrasco is coming back, they'll give Carmona another shot and the rest of the guys will fill out the 8 starters every team needs to compete in a season. Not saying Carmona wins a job, not saying Tomlin or Lowe are back either. Might need another pitcher too.

Agreed, but I'm trying to be realistic. I'm not sure we can free up enough money to buy three "professional hitters" and a starting pitcher that would be better than what we have. So I'm thinking if we replace Hannahan/Lopez with Chisenhall and replace Kotchman with a big swinging dick, that will upgrade two positions in the batting order. There might be enough money left to get another starter that's better than Hernandez, Gomez, or Tomlin.

What this team lacks the most is an impact, igniter type at the top of the order, a guy who can distrubt, run the bases, bring intangibles and score 100+ runs. This team does not and cannot take the game or put pressure on the other team and go in attack mode on offense. With only 11 million on the books next year, the Indians CAN build a team for less than $85 million and have all the parts, be balanced, compete and give their farm system the time it needs to develop.

Only $11 million on the books next year? I'd like to see the math on that.

Good luck on getting that igniter type to lead off. There's no Kenny Lofton in the farm system and there's nobody like that we can trade for. Choo is just fine as a leadoff hitter if he comes back next year.

Trying to win with unknown rookies is a horrible way to try to compete, it flat out does not work.

Trying to win with a washed up 38-year-old left fielder and a DH hitting .230 with no power does not work, either. Look, the Tribe has a solid offensive core in Choo, Kipnis, Brantley, Droobs, Santana, and hopefully, Chisenhall, assuming they don't trade Choo today. I'd love to sign three more hitters, but I just don't think it's in the cards financially. The Indians are a team that can add maybe one significant piece each year at most. That's the reality. I say take those six players and add one big bat, giving us seven good hitters plus Goedert and Fedroff, who won't be great, but they'll be affordable.

Get three professional hitters who can make an impact, then watch how much guys like Santana improve dramatically when the pressure is off. Watch how quickly the starting pitching improves when they are confident their team can score runs. Seen all of this before. The key to all of this is to have balance and keep the funnel full at the minor league level. Fix the big team first at all cost and then fill in the rest.

If they can add three above average bats to the big league team while keeping the "funnel full" of prospects, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, you have to give up something to get something unless you're just buying free agents, which the Indians are never in a position to do.

Who cares if Columbus wins the IL title ... Scott Leo???
They need to WIN to bring the fans back, they can't be fooled.

[Prosecutor]

Wow! What a horrible offseason the Tribe had. I had forgot about those three (Burns, Judy, and Putnam) not that they are that good, but the Tribe gave them away. Cpl that with not landing Willingham and it shows just how poorly it went.

In retrospect, passing on Willingham and signing Sizemore was a huge mistake. I don't know how they expected to compete without a right-handed power bat. Santana and Cabrera are switch hitters but have no power from the right side. I get they didn't want to give Willingham a three-year deal, but that turned out to be a mistake.

Maybe this winter we'll see them sign a right-handed power hitter to a long term deal, or trade for one.

[Prosecutor]

Why get rid of Hafner? He's good at what he does and he'll likely come fairly cheap next season. And if we're out of it again next year, he'll be decent trade bait assuming he's not injured. I'd like to see Goedert get a chance as well but let's not just slot the guy in at DH for a year when he's never seen a major league pitch.

Hafner has played 58 out of 102 games this year. Between injuries, the National League (where he can't play road games), and being benched against lefties, he barely plays half the time.

His OPS is decent at .795 despite his .233 BA. He still draws a lot of walks. But he's hitting .186 at home, .158 with runners on base, .125 with RISP, and he's 0-for-7 with the bases loaded.

The Indians biggest problem is they're something like 10-22 against lefties, and Hafner is useless against them and rarely plays.

I respect Pronk for his effort and for what he's done over the years, but you can't have a DH who plays only 57% of the time, doesn't hit with runners on base, and can't help you against left-handed pitching. Even for $1 million a year that's not a good use of a roster spot.

Pronk's numbers would be awful across the board except that when leading off an inning he's hitting .326 with a .463 OBP. For some reason he's Ichiro in his prime leading off, but with men on base he disappears. You'd think he'd hit better with runners on because they can't put the shift on as much, but that's not been the case. Maybe he's relaxed when leading off an inning but puts pressure on himself with runners on base. Whatever the reason, the difference is dramatic.

He also seems to be putting pressure on himself in front of the home fans. You'd think he'd hit better at home, but again, it's been the opposite.

I have no idea how Geodert would do as an every day DH in the majors, but he's hitting .326/.898 in Columbus, which is slightly better than Chisenhall's numbers there and much better than LaPorta. What's the point of having a farm system if players work their way up to AAA, then put up terrific numbers there, but still can't get a chance in the bigs because they've never seen a big league pitch? I'm missing the logic there.

[daingean]

Why get rid of Hafner? He's good at what he does and he'll likely come fairly cheap next season. And if we're out of it again next year, he'll be decent trade bait assuming he's not injured. I'd like to see Goedert get a chance as well but let's not just slot the guy in at DH for a year when he's never seen a major league pitch.

Hafner has played 58 out of 102 games this year. Between injuries, the National League (where he can't play road games), and being benched against lefties, he barely plays half the time.

His OPS is decent at .795 despite his .233 BA. He still draws a lot of walks. But he's hitting .186 at home, .158 with runners on base, .125 with RISP, and he's 0-for-7 with the bases loaded.

The Indians biggest problem is they're something like 10-22 against lefties, and Hafner is useless against them and rarely plays.

I respect Pronk for his effort and for what he's done over the years, but you can't have a DH who plays only 57% of the time, doesn't hit with runners on base, and can't help you against left-handed pitching. Even for $1 million a year that's not a good use of a roster spot.

I agree about him not being good use of a roster spot. If you are going to have a DH only on your 25 man roster then he needs to play 150 games otherwise it costs the team in other areas. For instance, Cunningham was around for so long because we needed both a RH hitter and someone that could play both CF and RF. If you have another roster spot open, the team could have filled both spots with different guys. This team's 25 man roster is tight which is why you don't see Goedert or Fedroff getting a chance right now.

[GhostofTedCox]

BLOW IT UP - - - BLOW IT ALL UP.

When you get swept by the Twins, a team with NOTHING to play for by 28-6, it shows there are significant problems on the team.

When you think about it; What would the alternative be if you don't blow it up? The 2013 team would have the same problems we do now. There still will not be anyone in the system ready to help the team on the field in 2013. We still won't have money to sign an upper echelon FA. (Even if we did, why would they come here?)
We will still have holes in LF, 1B, and now - DH.
Also, do the 2013 Indians need a $8 million closer in CPerez?

The Hafner/Sizemore era is over, finally.

So trade Choo, CPerez, Masterson, Lowe. I'd even listen on ACab.
Worried about upsetting the fan base? What fan base? Tens of people would be upset. A faded 95 World Series t-shirt would be burned.

If next years club has names like Marte, Belt and others: so be it. Even if they bomb, how much worse would they be?

The "2012 Window of Opportunity" is closed.

[homerawayfromhome]

Agreed, the window of contention is closed this season.

I say trade away the vets like Hafner, Lowe, Kotchman, and Hannahan and look at moving Choo, CPerez. I'd keep Masterson unless blown away with the offer. I still think this team can contend in '13 and '14.

There are some good parts on this team and they must be willing to gamble, but it must be calculated risks... Move useless vets for 1 / 2 solid spect(s) a piece if possible. Identify a core group to build upon and add to this team.

Overall the horrid offseason has carried into the season, I hated the Jimenez move a yr ago and this team has struggled to do anything right it seems.
Even with the Tyler Naquin pk this yr. fans are just turned off by about everything this club has done.
I guess my point is they need to control sell at this point, looking to add ML talent back.

[GeronimoSon]

...Only $11 million on the books next year? I'd like to see the math on that. ...

Yes..the math from this usually inaccurate poster is pretty suspect, at best.. With a 15 player accounting:

Travis Hafner $ 2.75 MM + Shin-soo Choo ~ $ 9 MM + Asdrubal Cabrera $ 6.5 MM + Chris Perez $ 7 MM + Ubaldo Jimenez $ 5.75 MM + Justin Masterson ~ $ 6.5 MM + Fausto aka BOB Hernandez $ 7 MM + Raffy/Joe Smith/Hoover/Sipp ARB's ~ 7 MM + Santana/Brantley/Marson/Rogers~ $ 4 MM = ~ $ 55 MM

So, the figure being stated, $ 11 MM, is only off a factor of 5..

[Lloyd Christmas]

Kotchman, Hannahan, Damon, Lopez, Tomlin, Lowe all still being on what was a playoff contending team at the end of July is unbelievable. They are giving you absolutely nothing and in fact really hurting the team. Would much rather see guys like Fedroff, Phelps, Donald, Kluber get a chance. Other than Kipnis and Santana I wouldnt have a problem with them trading anyone.

[GoTribe028]

Well, if the Indians do in fact sell, then I guess I'm ok with it. I mean if you can bring in potentially valuable piece(s) for Choo, then you have to consider the option...but if you do, you almost have to move a few other. Perez, Jiminez, Masterson, Cabrera. I mean if Chris Antonetti is gonna blow it up, so to speak, he better blow it the fuck out of the water and nail it. At least 1 ML player + in every trade.

Thats why I don't see it happening. Other teams don't seem willing to include valued commodities like that if they're only guaranteed the rest of this year, and even next year (in some cases 2014).

If the Indians don't "sell" or whatever, then they have to cut ties with the dead weight. You have to get players in your system up here and begin to play them and develop you're own commodities, even if their value to yourself, or even other teams is limited. And yes, my main "Big 3" that needs to go is Duncan/Damon/Lowe. One way or another, leave, run away, release them, trade them, sell them, whatever. If Tim Fedroff, Jarrod Goedert, and Corey Kluber were up here, I am confident that they can NOT do any less than the 3 they would replace. If you want to include Kotchman, Hafner, Hannahan, Lopez, and Smith in there, fine. I'm all about opening up spots for players that will be here beyond this season.

I will be suprised if the Indians "buy" but if they simply "stand pat" they're fools. Pick a damn direction and make it happen.

[ironmike]

Distinctly remember Ken Harrelson telling Bruce Drennan he didn't see the Indians contending in 2012 after Shapiro proclaimed we would contend. When Shapiro talks it is best to just duck. Let your eyes and the results tell you the story.

This organization is so far from contending don't see it happening until a new owner buys the team and a new business plan that emphasizes immediate RESULTS is put in place. The fans need to be educated, won back and that won't come cheap.

If you really love the Indians then a group of concerned fans should start a petition to ask the Dolan's to either sell or bring in investors with an infusion of capital. It could be easily accelerated via social media. Otherwise, this team will eventually end of moving to another city.

The Indians present business model will never be successful in their business industry. They have accepted being a have not which spells doom and an easy excuse to put forth.

Again, one of baseball's best franchises in the mid to late 90's has turned into a disgrace.

Prosecutor the likes of Fedroff, Goedert and Chisenhall won't turn this thing around. Their farm system at the moment in no better than the middle of the pack and that is being more than generous.

[daingean]

I don't see how you can blow this up now. We are only 6 games out (only 4 behind the Tiggers). Yes I know it's an up hill climb and we need help. I'm not talking about trading the farm here but at least going down swinging. The attitude about blowing this up and giving up is like quitting in Monopoly just because someone else bought Boardwalk and Park Place. Blowing up and giving up now would send a clear signal to the rest of the baseball world that we are quitters.

[JP_Frost]

I don't see how you can blow this up now. We are only 6 games out (only 4 behind the Tiggers). Yes I know it's an up hill climb and we need help. I'm not talking about trading the farm here but at least going down swinging. The attitude about blowing this up and giving up is like quitting in Monopoly just because someone else bought Boardwalk and Park Place. Blowing up and giving up now would send a clear signal to the rest of the baseball world that we are quitters.

What kind of nonsense is that? Quitters? It's reality. This team isn't going anywhere without significant upgrades at multiple positions. Something we can't acquire through trade or free agency. There aren't any high level prospects on the way either, so you'd basically bank on this exact team for the next 2 years. I don't see them improving into a 90 win club.

Let's say you go down swinging and end up with about 83 wins this year, well out of the playoffs. What do you do next year? You've now forced yourself into a corner when it comes to a guy like Choo and you'd have to trade him (assuming he doesn't sign a long term deal). Other teams know this and will offer less talent in return. We'd have people screaming that we should've traded him a year earlier.

Call it lousy management, poor strategy or just plain bad luck, but the Tribe is in an awkward position now and something needs to be done. It probably isn't the most popular remedy, but a fire sale might just be the only way to get back on track.

[Hermie13]

...Only $11 million on the books next year? I'd like to see the math on that. ...

Yes..the math from this usually inaccurate poster is pretty suspect, at best.. With a 15 player accounting:

Travis Hafner $ 2.75 MM + Shin-soo Choo ~ $ 9 MM + Asdrubal Cabrera $ 6.5 MM + Chris Perez $ 7 MM + Ubaldo Jimenez $ 5.75 MM + Justin Masterson ~ $ 6.5 MM + Fausto aka BOB Hernandez $ 7 MM + Raffy/Joe Smith/Hoover/Sipp ARB's ~ 7 MM + Santana/Brantley/Marson/Rogers~ $ 4 MM = ~ $ 55 MM

So, the figure being stated, $ 11 MM, is only off a factor of 5..

Indians payroll is around $64M right now. Assuming they don't trade anyone under contract and most of the arby guys (no Duncan or Slowey), they are looking at about $54M next year. So yeah, $11M was technically off...but only barely and in the wrong direction (though once Carmona comes back, the $64M will rise to about $65M).

Tribe likely will have about $10-12M off the books when you factor in arby cases. Tribe could trade someone or non-tender a guy like Hanny and save $2M more maybe. Then again guys like Choo or Brantley or even Perez could make more than we think and the savings are even less.

[Edible14]

Hafner has played 58 out of 102 games this year. Between injuries, the National League (where he can't play road games), and being benched against lefties, he barely plays half the time.

His OPS is decent at .795 despite his .233 BA. He still draws a lot of walks. But he's hitting .186 at home, .158 with runners on base, .125 with RISP, and he's 0-for-7 with the bases loaded.

The Indians biggest problem is they're something like 10-22 against lefties, and Hafner is useless against them and rarely plays.

I respect Pronk for his effort and for what he's done over the years, but you can't have a DH who plays only 57% of the time, doesn't hit with runners on base, and can't help you against left-handed pitching. Even for $1 million a year that's not a good use of a roster spot.

I don't really believe that "clutch" is a skill, so I'm of the opinion that the situational hitting will even out over time. And Hafner isn't the problem against lefties. His stats are similar against lefties and righties (marginal differences in wOBA, OPS, whatever you'd like to use) DESPITE having a .189 BABIP against lefties.

The bottom line to me is that Hafner is still a useful piece, even if he's not worth his current contract. If we want to have a shot at contending next year, I'm not sure where you make his production up. Just assuming that Jared Goedert will do so is foolish. Worst case scenario is that he gets hurt and the Indians are out, so young guys will get a chance anyway and you're only out whatever it costs to pay him for a year (probably similar to what Grady got this year). If you're out and he's healthy, he might be able to be traded as well. You shouldn't dump a useful piece for nothing just because you're frustrated.

[Prosecutor]

We're almost two-thirds of the way through the season and Hafner has 55 AB's against left-handed pitching. That tells you everything you need to know. Manny doesn't want him in the lineup against lefties. Maybe it's because he's hitting .200 off them.

The guy can't help us beat lefties. He plays less than 60% of the time. A DH has to be productive and play every day. It's ridiculous to have a DH that only plays against right-handed pitching, and he's not even killing righties. Pronk will not be back - I'll be stunned if he is.

It's time to clean house of the aged, the infirm, the broken down players struggling to keep their heads above water. Damon, Duncan, Hannahan, Pronk, Lowe - the old fellas who have been marginally productive have to move on. Lopez, too, although he's only 28.

If the Tribe ends up with about $12 million to work with this winter, then make it count. Get an impact bat in the middle of the lineup.

[ironmike]

To put a contending product on the field in 2013 a $64 million dollar payroll won't do it. You are all dreaming if you believe one good hitter in the middle of this line up will suddenly make this team a WS contender.

As Boras says, and I believe him, the Indians should be able to afford an $80-$82 million dollar payroll.

What will another $16 million allow for talent at the ML level?

The Indians "brain trust" put themseleves in this position, so they'll need to pony up to win the fans back. The beauracratic Dolan's will never do it. Poor business model.

I haven't seen Federoff play so I won't comment, but Goedert has no athelticism and Chishenhall might be a productive player, but he's no Toby Harrah type. These guys would only be bringing a bunch of "ifs" and no proven track records. Can't win with players like that.

There was only one Kenny Lofton, but there are guys out there who can bring the intangibles needed to spark and offense. Choo is only hitting lead off because our roster is so far out of whack. He's more like a two or six hole hitter. Just because he bats lead off for our "pop gun" offense doesn't really mean he's a lead off hitter.

Again, I'll stick to what I said to fix this offense ... we need three professional hitters who can drive balls to the gaps, run the bases, score 90 runs or more, draw walks, stay healthy and most importantly connect with the fans.

[nubballguy]

The Indians can compete/win with a daring departure to their current M.O. of playing mostly a conservative approach and being risk averse. Instead, they need to follow the more aggressive approach they showed in advancing Cody Allen through the system this season and yes, in the deal to bring Ubaldo here last year.

I believe a team focused on pitching with a single, key acquisition to the lineup (and some shrewd moves elsewhere) can follow through on the commitment to this current "window of opportunity" that will close no later than 2014.

You do this by 1- playing to your strength and 2- taking risks which, if played correctly (and with luck of course) get you to the top but which also can leave you exposed to the possibility of really failing and you have to be willing to accept those risks. You also need to clear out some dead wood to allow others to at least have the opportunity to push through and blossom and maybe save some much needed $ to spend elsewhere. A situation like that would be if anyone were interested in Hafner we could deal him just to get out from under his buyout for next season, a $2.5 mill savings I think though I doubt that trade partner exists.

The bullpen is our team strength no question and that extends beyond 1-7 to depth options in the minors as well. I think we can exploit that org depth without having to deal with the "create a hole to fill a hole" conundrum If all goes well. I think we can deal CPerez, JSmith and possibly Sipp (if there is a team interested in a lefty that likes what he's done recently). I think those guys, in a sell at the peak philosophy (and keeping in mind the financial restraints we have to be mindful of) can bring back real value and flexibility. And you take this approach ONLY if you can get a strong deal in return. I think we've all seen many times where rookies step up to become shut down closers in the league and that's an approach I think we should embrace.

I like the idea of leaving Pestano in the critical set up role and advancing Allen into the closer role after dealing away CPerez. I think Accardo and Rodgers have been great adds to the roster and the imminent return of RPerez helps to move the players mentioned along with some aggressive promotions from the minor roster of players like Sturdevant, Barnes even Bryson which still leaves other options should any of those falter and you've got guys like Hadagone and perhpas CC Lee coming back next year. And, Kluber is an arm you have to harvest, either as one of your 7-8 starters for '13 or as a bullpen arm.

The other place you can "sell high" is on Choo. Again, you do only if you REALLY like what's offered. If that's the Pirate kid Marte then you go for it but know that you might be getting Andy Marte or Matt LaPorta back. When you play at this game as a small market team, you have to guess right. And you have to accept you're never going to bat 1.000%

As a small market team, these are the risks you have to take when an window of opportunity exists and be willing to accept that if it doesn't work you could crash and burn. To continue the current path of operation is to commit to essentially what we've had these last two seasons: a middle of the pack team. And even in with the addition of an extra wild card and even with playing in the AL Central (newly more competitive however) that is not going to get you to the playoffs. So if you finish third at around .500 or at KC Royals level what's really the difference if you're truly trying to win?

To do that, roll the dice in your position of strength (the bullpen) and utilize your high value trade chips to bring in a FOR starter who would 1.- take the pressure off of your current 1 and 2 which would be hugely beneficial to them I feel but also would 2.- be a massive upgrade over the player they take over from in the rotation be it Lowe or Tomlin. Actually, if you could move UJ or even McAllister (don't really want to) for high value I make that trade as well with this FOR starter coming in and RHernandez due back in a few weeks (I don't expect anything better than what we've gotten from our 4-5s from him and would be "thrilled" if he gave us what UJ has and that is certainly not saying much) we still position ourselves well going forward.

These moves upgrade the rotation while still keeping the bullpen an area of strength, free up dollars to add the last piece to my plan which is to use all the savings of players coming off the roster to spend big on a #1 or 2 level player on our roster, preferably a RH 1st baseman. You guys can figure out who that might be, there are a lot of smart guys on this board to make some suggestions. I think you sell the player on it with 1-Money, 2-selling him on the vision of the strong pitching staff from starters through bullpen keeping the team in it much like NL style of play and 3- believing in the ascendancy of the team's core players that he would be stepping in to head the offensive charge.

And that is another advantage of getting this kind of acquisition, it would fire up not just the fan base but the young players already here. You see, there was no way a Kotchman or a Damon was ever going to lead the team from a production standpoint, even in a best case scenario and that I think hurt the core players we had going into '12 whose approach was undoubtedly affected. Think even of what a Willingham would have done for this team beyond what his WAR might be, he would have brought a lot of breathing space to the rest of the roster, hitters and pitchers.

Again, in a "go for it" scenario I'm talking about, to bring this FA acquisition in you need ALL the savings of the expiring contracts coming off line devoted to him meaning that the expected payroll expansion to pay the "core" players next season will have to come from a risk to spend more next year with the hope that the splash of a big time FOR and FA acquisition will do for the fan base revenue and ownership willingness to go into the red to see the opportunity through, at least at the season's start.

Therefore you make some moves that give a look like you're still trying for this season at the trade deadline with the FOR (and maybe an Upton too with all these moves + anyone in the minors not named Lindor?) and let those remaining the opportunity to step up to fill the roles left behind by the departed while they gain valuable experience. This also sets you up for the main shot, '13, with the new FA and FOR leading the charge, the core group following behind and the bullpen with Allen/Pestano closing it up.

So, if you believe as Tony does that you have to "double down" on the Ubaldo bet from last year to shoot for the window thru next year and '14 you can't just play it safe, you've got to make the best evaluation you can and swing for the fences to make it to the playoffs because even hitting singles is not going to get us there.

I think my plan, while far from a sure thing, offers a both a team makeup and a pathway to potential success that is somewhat grounded in what's possible if we extend the envelope a believable amount. Tell me what you think.

[JP_Frost]

Good post.

Your idea has some merit and I follow you all the way up to the FA acquisition. We're talking about a leader for our offense, which poses 2 problems imo:

- I'm not sure one is available in the offseason
- even if there is one, a lot of teams will go after him.

As painful as it is, 90% of the FA's don't want to play in Cleveland. Even if you throw big bucks towards one, there's always another team willing to pay equal or exceeding that offer. These all star type of players need to be either homegrown or acquired through trade.

Which is why I'm for a reasonable firesale. Only do it if you can get prospects playing for AA and up, so those guys will be ready in 1 or 2 years, and then with the addition of our young players (Santana, Chisenhall, Brantley, Kipnis) as well as hopefully some guys currently in our farm system, we could have a really solid team. That would be my preferred method.

One more thing against going all out for one big name player now, as some have suggested, is that it keeps you in the middle of the pack which obviously isn't where they reward you with a playoff spot, but it also makes you draft in the 15-20 range. So you either make the playoffs or you stink up the joint. You're f'd when caught in between,

[nubballguy]

Thanks JP. I think you also bring up valid points in your post as well and I too don't know who is available in the off-season and you're probably right, landing that kind of high upside player is probably going to be nearly impossible in attracting them to the Cleveland area unfortunately. I was just hoping that with a stockpile of money in the $15-16 mil range for 3 years with an option on a 4th year we might be able to entice a quality bat to come play for us. I just really felt that playing the strategy we've been using of bringing in a $3 mil guy and spreading the risk around with other "parts" just isn't truly viable it seems to me.

I put the post out under the thinking of we've got to go for it now mindset that it seems like the FO set up for us with the UJ trade. If you want to push back to '14-'15 then that's a different kind of strategy and moves into a hazier kind of crystal ball forecasting. I guess you are thinking of turning over current "core" players like Masterson and ACab for the prospects you are considering plus the hoped for maturation of players like Lindor and who knows, perhaps Aguilar? A lot of ifs there of course and maybe too much of a reach but I do get the idea behind it. I'd certainly hope Pestano would still be in that window as well.

I do think that while anything is possible, my approach may indeed result in the all or nothing scenario you are promoting regarding the draft though I do think that with this new draft rules you may have more chances to draft an impact guy in the middle of the draft than perhaps you did in the past.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, I hope I offered some ideas worth considering to the discussion even while I know it was pretty short on specifics and long on conjecture.

[Prosecutor]

I'm on board with your plan, nubball, especially the part about getting rid of the deadwood and using the savings to add a big stick in the middle of the lineup.

I really don't think it's realistic to trade for a FOR pitcher, however. It's rare to see one of those guys traded and when it happens they end up going to the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies or Angels. Unless you consider Ubaldo a FOR starter, which he isn't.

I agree that the Indians' position of strength from a trading standpoint is the bullpen, especially Chris Perez. Unfortunately, relievers don't bring much in trade, certainly not starters or every day players who hit.

The Indians only chance is to sign a Josh Willingham type free agent next year and hope Chiz stays healthy and has a breakout season like Kipnis had this year. That adds two potent bats to the lineup.

Then they need a young starting pitcher to emerge like McAlister is doing this year. The candidates are Carrasco, Gomez, Kluber, and Barnes.

They also need a DH. Goedert would be the fall back position if they can't sign a free agent or get one in a trade.

I'd also be willing to move Lindor if the right deal came along. I know he's our #1 prospect, but a lot can happen. I've seen so many highly rated prospects disappear, starting with Adam Miller, Andy Marte, Matt LaPorta, Jason Knapp, Beau Mills - the list goes on and on. The Tribe is loaded with middle infielders in the low minors. If Lindor can help get us a legitimate starter or a right-handed power bat, then go for it.

Choo needs to be traded because the Tribe simply can't afford to let quality players walk and get nothing in return. They did that with Manny and Thome. It was stupid, but they learned and didn't let it happen with CC, Lee, and Victor. So now at least they have Masterson, Brantley, Hagadone, Carrasco, and Marson. They need to move Choo for a prospect who will be another Masterson or Brantley.

So the trade chips are Perez, Lindor, and Choo. In addition, they should have around $12 million to work with after getting rid of the dead wood. Between the players and the money that's a lot of ammunition. It should be enough to add a couple of big bats and a starting pitcher.

And ironmike, saying things like "You can't win with players like that" in reference to Lonnie Chisenhall is not going to get you anywhere. I suppose a year ago at this time you were saying, "You can't win with players like Jason Kipnis, we need to go out and sign a professional bat".

[homerawayfromhome]

I completely agree with advancing Cody Allen to the closers role. This kid has it, and the Tribe is best suited utilizing their resources on bats and starting pitching rather than relievers.

I think the Tribe needs a bit of outside the box thinking. Instead of flat sitting on their hands. Over the offseason I suggested the Tribe trade CPerez bc he is at peak value. He's actually probably bettered his value with his performance but than again his mouth may have hindered it to some teams.

I'm a Choo fan but the reality of it is he's gonna walk and the Tribe must maximize his value. If that means getting a young starter than so be it. I'd rather see the Tribe move him than lose him.

[homerawayfromhome]

In my post above I suggested the Tribe think outside the box. Here's a suggestion...

Indians acq. Justin Upton

Dbax acq. Justin Masterson

Here's another...

Indians acq. Hunter Pence --he might give the Tribe a "hometown discount" if they tried to resign him.

Phillies acq. Shin-Soo Choo

[ironmike]

Prosecutor, no Kipnis has proven he is a good player. Chisenhall, who can't draw a walk, which is a huge red flag hasn't.

Fedroff, Goedart and Chisenhall don't equal the kind of core players this team is trying to cultivate, no matter what Atkins says. Enough of the BS, heard it for years and it is now easy to spot.

Any player who can't draw walks will never be a superior hitter. He should be one of the first players they move and it looks more and more like another miss on a first round pick ... again.

There is a real story there for the guy who has the balls to write it.

After all how do you think the Indians arrived in the position they are currently in after being one of baseball's best franchises?

PS Watched TJ McFarland last nite, he ain't got it either.

[Hermie13]

Any player who can't draw walks will never be a superior hitter. He should be one of the first players they move and it looks more and more like another miss on a first round pick ... again.


After all how do you think the Indians arrived in the position they are currently in after being one of baseball's best franchises?

So you didn't think Carlos Baerga was a superior hitter in the early-to-mid 90s? 200 hits seems pretty superior to me...
Chiz could easily match Baerga's walk rate as he matures.

Answer to your last question is some horrible drafts by Hart and company, some short-sighted trades by Hart, some bad drafting by Mirabelli, some poor returns on big name trades (CC, Lee), terrible fan support, and huge disparity in revenues/tv deals with the big clubs and Cleveland.

[indians1]

The indians cannot contend in 2013 with masterson and ubaldo as their #1 and #2 guys. Masterson is at best a #2 and that may be pushing it because he doesn't have a track record that says he will bounce back to his 2011 form.

We now have ubaldo for the last 1+ years and he is what most thought of him. A guy that had a few decent years but was on the decline. The indians traded away 2 of their biggest assets and got garbage in return. ( a #3 pitcher at best). Whatever pomeranz and white become, they had value and we didn't maximize our return.

I think you have to blow this thing up even though the fans won't like it because the goal is to win a championship and we can't do that with ubaldo and masterson as our anchors of the rotation. In a series in the playoffs- who do you like

Masterson/ubaldo or verlander? easy one

Masterson/ubaldo or chris sale? easy one.

The indians are stuck in mediocrity with this team and it is going to be hard to get past this point with this team.

[ironmike]

Hermie you aren't even worth responding to, you don't get it.

It's not what I think, its what you don't know.

Amen

[GeronimoSon]

27 games left to play.. while it hasn't been the season envisioned in mid May when the Indians were holding to a slim lead in the AL Central.. The torture that is a ML season has taken it's toll..especially in August...

Looking back at oneof the postings from this thread:

Pros...It's time to clean house of the aged, the infirm, the broken down players struggling to keep their heads above water. Damon, Duncan, Hannahan, Pronk, Lowe - the old fellas who have been marginally productive have to move on. Lopez, too, although he's only 28... So the trade chips are Perez, Lindor, and Choo. In addition, they should have around $12 million to work with after getting rid of the dead wood. Between the players and the money that's a lot of ammunition. It should be enough to add a couple of big bats and a starting pitcher.

-Agree fully.. As of this writing, Damon is gone, Lowe is gone.. Duncan is gone..Lopez is gone.. Pronk is on the DL with little chance of returning to action anytime soon and Hannahan is playing less and less (Donald/Lillibridge are taking the AB's while Chisenhall rehabs in Columbus and Akron)..

-Combining the approximate $ 12 MM with the three players mentioned should be enough "currency" to achieve this goal.. The questions remaining.. who are the big bats?.. who is the starting pitcher?. Without those two tiny pieces of information, doubt will remain. Any help defining this would be helpful..or perhaps we can wait for Nub to add to his very good, albeit somewhat verbose, posting...

[OhioBaseball]

This team has become pathetic. The Indians have the 2nd worst run differential in MLB, beating only Houston.

I see stuff about trading Perez and giving the closer job to Pestano. I don't see the point. The earliest this team can contend is 2014 and by then Pestano's arm will probably be toast. Pestano is one of the more marketable players on this team; absolutely move the guy. Keeping him around to be a low-cost closer in '13 is pointless if the Indians could otherwise turn him into a prospect or two.

It's amazing how awful this team has become. A month ago we thought Justin Masterson was a big trading chip -- now I doubt the Indians could get much for him. He's getting a pay raise next year and coming off a 4.96 ERA, 1.46 WHIP season -- that is no bueno. Lots of teams wouldn't be interested in him in the first place b/c his arm slot sucks and lefties will always hit him. Better off keeping him and hoping he does well in the first half next year.

This franchise is in a lot of trouble.

[ironmike]

Ohio Baseball, hear the frustration in your post. Masterson is in the same place Dennis Eckersley was in not being able to get lefties out. Good coaching can fix this, ditto Ubaldo. IF these guys are healthy they can be turned around. Over the years seen the Indians discard pitchers only to turn it around at their next MLB stop along the way.

We all know pitchers like Eckersley, Dennis Martinez, Luis Tiant and even Gaylord when the Giants gave up on him for Sudden Sam can bounce back.

With what we don't have to replace them in the minors, trades or in a free agent budget they are stuck with these guys. Besides no team will over pay for either pitcher. It all comes down to the sins of lousy drafting.

What bothers me most about the Indians from the roster perspective is ... we don't have any on the field leaders.

Choo should be, Cabrera should be, but neither has shown to be the leader, take charge personalities.

See both Masterson and Ubaldo being back next year, they don't have to many choices, unless they gut the team and get all prospects. An all out stated rebuild will really blow up the attendance / advertisers / sponsorships for 2013.

[ironmike]

More Masterson comparision ... he's having a Dick Tidrow kind of year... .500 pitcher on a bad team. We traded Tidrow after he had a bad year after a good rookie season and he went on to star with the Yankees.

A big problem right now with Masterson and Ubaldo is the soul of the team has a losing attitude. Masterson could end up with 12-13 wins and a .500 record yet most posters want to trade him. Actually that is about average for a team that can't score. Would not move him. Ditto Ubaldo. They are healthy, there is lots of movement on their pitches, true they have mechanic issues, most pitchers do at one time or another during their careers.

If we do trade them, how do we get more than equal value for them? Who becomes our No.1 and No. 2 starters? I say ride it out with these guys. they can bounce back. They did it before they can do it again provided there are no health issues. Then effectively retool the offense if possible with the executives we have in place. Number one offensive target? Billy Hamilton, with more suggestions coming.

[GeronimoSon]

The response to Chris Perez's rant from the Indians FO, Chris Antonetti was, at best, disappointing.. at the least, it was a response that could be best summarized as apathetic lip service. Here is the quote:

CA states: ".. While we work to understand various perspectives, we strongly disagree with Chris's comments. None the less, we are not satisfied with our recent results and our entire organization remains committed to fielding winning teams, and that is the standard by which we will continue to operate."

"Our entire organization" may be a euphemism for someone is departing.. who that someone could be is Chris Perez.. which would change "disappointing" into flat out stupidity if the return for him is the next Giovanni Soto..

Additionally, Mark Polishuk at MLB Trade Rumors has posted a piece regarding Chris Perez as a 'trade candidate'. The link to the article: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/09/t ... qus_thread

So, while it's wild speculation at this point who the suitors for Chris Perez may be, it appears that there are at a few teams that would want to kick the tires: Poishuk mentions the Red Sox, Giants, Reds and Mets as potential suitors. When you look at these four teams, imho, a CP deal with the Red Sox might make the most sense if for no other reason than Chris Perez's eccentricities (read: mouth diarrhea) in Boston would play up big, especially when CP faces the Red Sox nemesis, the Yankees. CP has faced the NYY's 9 times over his career with five saves and a hold without blowing a save, ever. The Red Sox like that about a player..and aren't completely anal retentive about having a player speak his mind in the press.

[danh8]

So, the front office can deal with Chris Perez's personality and eccentricities until the truths he speaks hit on them personally.

Can't say it surprises me ...but, he was...again ...onl;y stating thongs that everyone else has been saying throughout the league ...

Bad decision making ...poor talent evaluation ... poor use of the limited money they have available to them. It's not that the team spends terribly less than some teams that perform far better than us. It's that the use of that money is poor. When you have the amount of many available that the Indians have, you can't be inept in player evaluations. Have to outperform most teams in the league in the draft, and player development ...and when you do make a trade or get a player in free agency, you hit ...and make a positive impact of vast majority of the time.

Antonetti, Shapiro, Mirabelli ..over the course of the past 12 years or so haven't been very good, and the results show that.

What they should say in respense to Chris Perez comments is : He's only stating the obvious ..we share his frustration.

[daingean]

So, the front office can deal with Chris Perez's personality and eccentricities until the truths he speaks hit on them personally.

Can't say it surprises me ...but, he was...again ...onl;y stating thongs that everyone else has been saying throughout the league ...

Bad decision making ...poor talent evaluation ... poor use of the limited money they have available to them. It's not that the team spends terribly less than some teams that perform far better than us. It's that the use of that money is poor. When you have the amount of many available that the Indians have, you can't be inept in player evaluations. Have to outperform most teams in the league in the draft, and player development ...and when you do make a trade or get a player in free agency, you hit ...and make a positive impact of vast majority of the time.

Antonetti, Shapiro, Mirabelli ..over the course of the past 12 years or so haven't been very good, and the results show that.

What they should say in respense to Chris Perez comments is : He's only stating the obvious ..we share his frustration.

I wouldn't take anything the FO says seriously right now. They are all fighting for their baseball lives. Fortunately for them (unfortunately for us) is all they need to do is convince 1 person to be in their corner. Anyone with any intelligence (and yes CA, MS and company have intelligence) will sift out what C.Perez said and weigh what is really true (and they know what is really true). What they say right now is posturing for LD!!!!

[timdav]

Just curious...show of hands: how many of you believe the current FO's key players (Mark, Chris) will still be with the Indians next season?

Not what you think should be done (we all know that! LOL)...but, what will the Dolans actually do?

My gut feeling says "yes"...MS & CA will, amazingly, still be running the Tribe in 2013. Pweh!

What do you guys think?

[daingean]

Just curious...show of hands: how many of you believe the current FO's key players (Mark, Chris) will still be with the Indians next season?

Not what you think should be done (we all know that! LOL)...but, what will the Dolans actually do?

My gut feeling says "yes"...MS & CA will, amazingly, still be running the Tribe in 2013. Pweh!

What do you guys think?

I agree with you on this. Actually here are what I think are the odds of them returning:

MS - 75%
CA - 65%
Mirabelli - 51%
Grant - 85%
Acta - 10%

The only one that I would keep would be Grant. I just think a complete rebuild is in order. I'd also like to have kept Acta because I think he won with less but he's almost definitely gone. And during the August swoon, I did lose some faith in him but I blame CA more for the August swoon.

[Rocky55]

Just curious...show of hands: how many of you believe the current FO's key players (Mark, Chris) will still be with the Indians next season?

Not what you think should be done (we all know that! LOL)...but, what will the Dolans actually do?

My gut feeling says "yes"...MS & CA will, amazingly, still be running the Tribe in 2013. Pweh!

What do you guys think?

Also agree with you. I'd bet that Shapiro & Antonetti are almost sure things. Of the guys daingean mentioned, Grant had better stay, Acta's prolly gone, & I Imagine Mirabelli's position is mostly a sinecure.

We're doomed.

[homerawayfromhome]

Rumors are they are going to keep Acta, I suppose that's fluid. I think they need to clean house and keep Grant and Alomar, but it will probably be the other way around. Grant and Alomar both probably leave and the team only gets worse... Sounds like the perfect doomsday scenario to me.

[GeronimoSon]

As we wind on down the road..

22

The number of games to play.. the AL Central Division winner will have 86 or 87 wins.. There will be no wild card awarded to the AL Central runner up.. The Indians regressed from last year's 80-82 record, even though many (including yours truly) thought they would improve by as many as 8 games.. If they had.. there would have been playoffs at the corner of Ontario and Carnegie..but alas, things didn't work out and are now being shoveled into on big pile called

"It's X's Fault"..

X in this case can mean any one of or any combination of Mr Dolan, Mark Shapiro, Chris Antonetti, John Mirabelli, Brad Grant and Manny Acta...oh, and to a much lesser extent, the players ! There!!.. the Blame is laid.. Someone is culpable.. NOW WE KNOW and are exactly where we were two minutes ago, and the same problems exist...

But what could have been done.. say, at the trading deadline to right the ship?.. No doubt about it.. the # 1 problem the Indians have has been and is the starting pitching.. It didn't and hasn't performed.. injuries were a factor, but, that's part of the game. Fausto Carmona aka Roberto Hernandez wasn't on the team for any appreciable amount of time due to fraudulent identity issues.. (Who should have seen that coming?)..and when he has pitched, he's been FAUSTO.. Justin Masterson would be masterful one outing, then, less so on most other outings.. he clearly has taken a step back.. Ubaldo Jimenez.. more of the same.. up and down performance.. Corey Kluber/Zach MacAllister/Gomez... are all young pitchers who showed their youth in the form of inconsistent command and control, & they did.. Josh Tomlin.. injured his elbow, I'm guessing back in September/August of 2011 and it finally came down to surgery or Insurance Sales.. The starting pitching wasn't good enough this year.. to win this very winnable division. It was a "known" that the starting pitching wasn't good enough well before the trading deadline. So, if we listen to certain folks scream, coughrustymikecough, "..go spend money.." "..buy the best available starting pitcher.." "...don't be cheap.. yada yada..

Well, it didn't happen... The starting pitchers that did move at the trading deadline.. have, for the most part proven to be not that much different / better than the guys the Indians have:

-Was Wandy Rodriguez (3-4 since the deadline trade) the answer?.. not really

-Was renting Zach Greinke for two months (gave up 25 earned runs in 50.2 IP) worth the Indians # 1, # 4, and # 5 Prospects?..maybe? maybe not?...He's been a LOT better lately, but when he first got to Anaheim.. he was dreadful..

-How about the two (2) wins & plus 5 ERA the CWSox have gotten in the two month rental of Francisco Liriano.. It only cost them two top 20 prospects.. was that a good move?..

-Do the Atlanta Braves FO look back and smile at giving up their # 1 pitching prospect (Aroldis Vizcaino) for the services of Lefty Paul Maholm and his 3-3 record with one ND along with a mid 4's era during his two month stay in Atlanta?

-The one team that is pleased with the deadline acquisition is the Rangers. The Rangers are really happy with Ryan Dempster.. he's actually pitching well..

In short.. the starting pitchers that moved from one team to another at the trading deadline, other than Ryan Demptser, have been pretty much Corey Kluber.. Not horrible.. not great.. just a guy who took the ball every fifth day and not much more.. So, there really wasn't much available at the trading deadline to "improve the club".. unless the thought process is that the above listed players the Indian's could have gotten would possibly have played better because they were in an Indians uniform..then I'd defer THAT assessment to the hopelessly desperate department.. see RustyMike for assistance..

Next up.. the position players...

[Bearcatbob]

The problem is simple - massive under performance of the current roster. Throw in the loss of Hafner and we have clean hitters named Brantly, Canzler and Lopez. The batting order is more like a ping pong team.

Bob

[daingean]

The problem is simple - massive under performance of the current roster. Throw in the loss of Hafner and we have clean hitters named Brantly, Canzler and Lopez. The batting order is more like a ping pong team.

Bob

I'd counter that the problem was in the construction of the roster. Teams can carry 1 or 2 guys like Kotchman, Damon, Duncan, Lopez, Hannahan and Cunningham but if you got 6 guys like that then you are in trouble. Plus w/o a solid RH hitter to break up a run on lefties puts your manager at a disadvantage.

People clammer about our SP but I'd put 1B and LF as places where this team needed upgrades. When you have negative players at what are traditionally offensive positions that should be one of the easiest positions to acquire w/o costing an arm and a leg.

I will grant you that SP underperformed but I think the team as a whole overperformed for the first 4 months of the season. Then the FO lost the team.

[GeronimoSon]

Dain.. I don't see what you've presented in your posting having much content...While I don't mean this as a criticism, it's really the only way it can be challenged/discussed:

-At or near the end of May, the Indians were in first place with a three game lead.. So, for the first two months of the year, they performed. How could the entire team under perform for the first four months of the season when the team had a three game lead in the division after the first two months of the season???

-The FO lost the team?.. did a charter take a wrong turn? or is this another one of those fundamentally undefined measures that have the added bonus of being exacerbated with hyperbole?..

..It was around the last week in May or the first week in June that the club started to lose a few series, but certainly not take a dive.. The Indians got swept by the CWSox, traded sweeps with the Reds and ended up getting swept by the Yankees.. It wasn't until around the 100th game of the season or at the very end of the fourth month of the season that the bottom fell out when they went on the lonnnnggg losing streak (11 games?).. Up to that point, they were within three games of the lead in the division..

[daingean]

Dain.. I don't see what you've presented in your posting having much content...While I don't mean this as a criticism, it's really the only way it can be challenged/discussed:

-At or near the end of May, the Indians were in first place with a three game lead.. So, for the first two months of the year, they performed. How could the entire team under perform for the first four months of the season when the team had a three game lead in the division after the first two months of the season???

-The FO lost the team?.. did a charter take a wrong turn? or is this another one of those fundamentally undefined measures that have the added bonus of being exacerbated with hyperbole?..

..It was around the last week in May or the first week in June that the club started to lose a few series, but certainly not take a dive.. The Indians got swept by the CWSox, traded sweeps with the Reds and ended up getting swept by the Yankees.. It wasn't until around the 100th game of the season or at the very end of the fourth month of the season that the bottom fell out when they went on the lonnnnggg losing streak (11 games?).. Up to that point, they were within three games of the lead in the division..

Read my post again. I said they overperformed as a whole for the first 4 months of the season. I did say that the SP did underperform (or didn't really pitch up to expectations). I'd say that this team NEEDED upgrades at 1B and LF to compete. Our dvision competitors made moves but we didn't. When no moves were made, I think it affected the team mentally. I know these guys are professionals but they are also people and I think they felt abandoned by the FO and tanked in August. At the end of July they were within striking distance. Yes on paper the Tiggers and ChiSux were a better team but still you are in this game to give it all you got. The FO didn't do that. All they (and I wanted) was a chance to compete.

[Prosecutor]

In short.. the starting pitchers that moved from one team to another at the trading deadline, other than Ryan Demptser, have been pretty much Corey Kluber..

Excellent point. Just like Ubaldo was pretty much Corey Kluber after we got him last year.

The Indians would have needed to trade for five starting pitchers in order to contend this year, and even that is questionable considering how pathetic the offense has been. Ryan Dempster would not have them contending right now.

Folks are critisizing the front office, but they definitely were correct in not giving up any top prospects for a starting pitcher who would not have made any difference, except possibly finishing 4th rather than 5th. Some of those teams are surely regretting those trades.

The Indians needed everything to go right this year to make the playoffs. Sizemore had to show up healthy and stay healthy or we have a train wreck in left field. We got the train wreck. Hafner needed to stay healthy and play 130 games and provide some power and OBP. He didn't. Ubaldo needed to get his mechanics back together and have an above-average season. He didn't. Chisenhall needed to provide some offense at 3rd base. He was starting to, but then got hurt.

It goes on and on. Tomlin needed to repeat his first half of 2011, not the second. He didn't. Masterson, Santana, and Asdrubal needed to repeat their very good 2011 seasons. They didn't come close. After Fausto turned out to be somebody else, they needed Gomez to step up and be a solid BOR starter. He didn't. Kotchman needed to hit .300 like he did last year. He didn't.

They also had bullpen issues with Raffie Perez hurt all year and Sipp inconsistent. Cody Allen was a nice surprise, but Hagadone disappointed and then put himself out for the season.

Actually, nobody had a decent season except Brantley, Choo, Kipnis (first half only), Pestano, Smith, and Perez.

How much of this is the front office's fault? I'd say very little of it, certainly not the injuries to Sizemore, Hafner, Tomlin, and Chisenhall, or the poor seasons by Cabrera and Santana. Or the Carmona situation.

The biggest mistake was the decision not to give Josh Willingham a three-year deal and allow him to go to the Twins. Instead of risking $21 million on Willingham over three years they risked $5 million on Sizemore, hoping to squeeze one last productive year out of him and buying time to solve the left field problem permanently. But with all the injuries and bad pitching, even Willingham and his 30/100 season would not have us in contention.

So now we say goodbye to Hafner, Kotchman, Hannahan, Hernandez, and most likely Choo and Chris Perez. The last two should bring in some good prospects, the others will free up money which will hopefully be used better than last year when they sprent what they had on Lowe, Damon, Kotchman, and Sizemore.