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Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:22 pm

Magneticnorth451 wrote:If the Indians trade Chris Perez for Brandon Belt, I'll do backflips. The 1B issue will finally be solved.


It would be thrilling to acquire the Brandon Belt that excelled in the minors (.343/.457/.596/31 HR's/56 2B/10 3B/146 BB/147 K's all in 190 games), not the guy who has struggled to hit .225 - .235 for the Giants over the two seasons he's played. IOW's, his performance at the ML level leaves a lot to be desired..

In addition to the SF Giants being in the market for back of the bullpen level talent, the St Louis Cardinals are looking for some help.. IF Chris Perez is moved for a ML OF bat or ML Ready player(s), the Cardinals would be a good team to look at, specifically CJ Cron, Oscar Taveras and Matt Adams.. Taveras and Adams are both are left handed, but, can hit & have hit everywhere they've ever played. CJ Cron is a little further away from being ML ready, but would instantly become one of the best sticks in the Indians system..

Comment..
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:35 pm

ironmike wrote:Yeah, Kipnis should be on the list for sure.

You're overlooking how difficult it is to find a catcher who's competent both at the plate and behind the plate. Even with his struggles, Carlos Santana ranks 7th among starting catchers in OPS+ and 10th in WAR. Because he has the 3rd highest walk rate of any hitter in baseball, even at his worst, he still provides above average offense as a catcher. Behind the plate, the pitching staff has virtually the same numbers whether it's Santana or Marson (4.47 ERA w/Santana, 4.51 w/Marson), and Santana is throwing out 33% of would be base stealers (6% above league average).
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:43 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Magneticnorth451 wrote:If the Indians trade Chris Perez for Brandon Belt, I'll do backflips. The 1B issue will finally be solved.


It would be thrilling to acquire the Brandon Belt that excelled in the minors (.343/.457/.596/31 HR's/56 2B/10 3B/146 BB/147 K's all in 190 games), not the guy who has struggled to hit .225 - .235 for the Giants over the two seasons he's played. IOW's, his performance at the ML level leaves a lot to be desired..

In addition to the SF Giants being in the market for back of the bullpen level talent, the St Louis Cardinals are looking for some help.. IF Chris Perez is moved for a ML OF bat or ML Ready player(s), the Cardinals would be a good team to look at, specifically CJ Cron, Oscar Taveras and Matt Adams.. Taveras and Adams are both are left handed, but, can hit & have hit everywhere they've ever played. CJ Cron is a little further away from being ML ready, but would instantly become one of the best sticks in the Indians system..

Comment..


I will say this, one of the better trades the Indians made was when dealing Victor Martinez. Granted Masterson was a project that many figured would settle in as a bullpen arm. He being already in the Majors, but having something like 5 years of control left was huge. Add in the high upside arm of Nick Hagadone and another arm of Bryan Price it turned out to be the better deal that season.

Come to think of it, the Mark DeRosa trade for Chris Perez himself and Jess Todd fits that mold as well.

If the Indians indeed are considering all options and Perez is out there, that would a be deal I would be for. A young player already in the majors with a nice track record in the minors, and another piece or two that would make the deal easier to swollow. After all, CP could be under team control beyond this year, that alone is worth something. A young player like that would be added to guys in similar positions, ie Kipnis, Chisenhall, Brantley, Santana.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:48 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
ironmike wrote:Yeah, Kipnis should be on the list for sure.

You're overlooking how difficult it is to find a catcher who's competent both at the plate and behind the plate. Even with his struggles, Carlos Santana ranks 7th among starting catchers in OPS+ and 10th in WAR. Because he has the 3rd highest walk rate of any hitter in baseball, even at his worst, he still provides above average offense as a catcher. Behind the plate, the pitching staff has virtually the same numbers whether it's Santana or Marson (4.47 ERA w/Santana, 4.51 w/Marson), and Santana is throwing out 33% of would be base stealers (6% above league average).


IMO Santana will rebound from an offensive/power hitting stand point. Hopefully now instead of next year. However his ability to hit at the ML level(looking strictly at BA here) has been kinda iffy . Its great he is patient at the plate, but if he wasn't so good at taking a walk or if he suddenly saw that element shrink from his game - he would be a terrible offensive player this season mainly due to his lack of HR power. If and when that returns the low BA is not that big of a deal. Can someone figure out what % his BBs accounts for his OBP? He's seems to be hitting a little better lately though.

Chris Perez - he is on the block. He is on the block for a 1B/OF preferably a RH one who has a decent chance to start on the 2013 team. Maybe a SP of similar caliber/upside - but if you fall completely out of the race and you look to move people a stud RH hitter has to be your #1 target, IMO. AIso trading for anyone below AA as the feature piece of a deal would be crazy IMO. I would hope and think that the tribe would get a much better package for CPerez then the Astro's got for Myers.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Tondo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:05 pm

CP for a Belt (+ some lower level guy) would be an ideal trade as it would represent half "sell" and half "buy", meaning we could still "contend" by moving up Pestano, J.Smith and C.Allen and have a long term bat at 1B to show for long term who could/should even represent a short term upgrade to Kotchman

Belt is a LHB but has crazy reverse splits in the MLB so far (.916 OPS vs LHP, .649 vs RHP), so he should be "ok" to start vs LHP I guess

I'm still reluctant to trade Choo though...the return would have to be even more established and then some..and unlike CP it would be a clear SELL message to the fanbase although I guess trading CP would have the homer fans go "here we go again" too...anyway, 20-20 guys don't grow on trees so whoever wants him for 1.5 years better pony up
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:13 pm

Choo should NOT be traded this year. Trading him this year punches a major hole in your line-up for the rest of this year and next. Trading him next year, if it comes to that makes a lot more sense. Really only CPerez, Hanny, Kotchman, Lowe and Hafner are your only ML's you can trade this year who might bring something back. Only Cperez has the value to bring back a major piece. Though a package of Hanny and or Kotchman + Hafner might have value as well.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:07 pm

In regards to the Youkalis trade - it appears that the Red Sox DFA'd Lillibridge on the 16th. So why the hell didn't we kick the tires on Youk again? I would love to ask someone in F.O why they felt it wasn't worth it.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:57 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Choo should NOT be traded this year. Trading him this year punches a major hole in your line-up for the rest of this year and next. Trading him next year, if it comes to that makes a lot more sense. Really only CPerez, Hanny, Kotchman, Lowe and Hafner are your only ML's you can trade this year who might bring something back. Only Cperez has the value to bring back a major piece. Though a package of Hanny and or Kotchman + Hafner might have value as well.


I see no reason trading value for value as in the case of Choo needs to put a hole in the order. He would be worth a bundle to some city with a big Korean population.

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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:44 pm

Folks, it just got serious in Detroit.

Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante.

Jacob Turner reportedly going to Florida

EDIT: Peter Gammons on The Twitter

1st draft pick deal:A Sanchez, Infante and comp balance pick for Jacob Turner, Rob Brantly, Brian Flynn and Det. comp pick. Fascinating
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:10 pm

Yankees about to acquire Ichiro as well.

Things are getting interesting!
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:15 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Yankees about to acquire Ichiro as well.

Things are getting interesting!


Yanks got Ichiro and $$$ and Seattle got almost nothing in D.J. Mitchell and Danny Fahrquar.

Mitchell is at least a decent depth option for a team in need of a lot.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:53 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Yankees about to acquire Ichiro as well.

Things are getting interesting!


Yanks got Ichiro and $$$ and Seattle got almost nothing in D.J. Mitchell and Danny Fahrquar.

Mitchell is at least a decent depth option for a team in need of a lot.

In the Mariners defense, Ichiro basically is nothing at this point.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:45 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:Folks, it just got serious in Detroit.

Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante.

Jacob Turner reportedly going to Florida

EDIT: Peter Gammons on The Twitter

1st draft pick deal:A Sanchez, Infante and comp balance pick for Jacob Turner, Rob Brantly, Brian Flynn and Det. comp pick. Fascinating

So with this deal the GD tigies move up to the "A" Round of the comp balance picks; Where is the banging-your-head-against-the-wall smilie when you need it?
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:36 pm

With the Marlins making other moves and Washington having to deal with losing Ian Desmond to injury, I wonder if Jason Donald might be part of a package to bring the Tribe a piece or 2 that it needs.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby ChadS17 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:27 am

I'm having a hard time buying into the Choo rumors simply because there is NOBODY to replace him. Not trying to be a pessimist, but I can't imagine Choo netting a replacement outfielder at or above his ability. That said, going into this year, when this team's playoff chances looked a lot better than they do now, they filled their outfield vacancy with Johnny Damon. They sure as hell aren't going to fill two outfield vacancies with competent major leaguers heading into '13.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:12 am

I don't think we will see Choo moved unless the Tribe brings in an outfielder or two. I think this coming series is key...if the Tigres gain any ground against the Tribe head to head I think we may see the Tribe try to add to the club by moving pieces like Chris Perez and Choo. The thing is the Tribe doesn't have to make these moves, they are still controllable beyond this yr and Perez another. The Tribe would have to be overwhelmed by its return and it would have to be now players and maybe a cpl high end prospects.
Chris Perez is an affordable, controllable All Star closer, 2+ yrs of control equal a very solid return, if the Giants are serious id demand a return of Brandon Belt-1b, Gary Brown-CF and Kyle Crick-RHSP (last yrs 1st rd pk).
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby daingean » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:10 am

I'm still in favor of bringing the right piece for the right price but the clock is ticking. With 1 week left in July, we can at least make a run. I know finding trading partners is not easy. I wouldn't be selling off now but in the off-season this team does need to shop Choo.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby ClevelandBlues » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:36 am

criznit2009 wrote:In regards to the Youkalis trade - it appears that the Red Sox DFA'd Lillibridge on the 16th. So why the hell didn't we kick the tires on Youk again? I would love to ask someone in F.O why they felt it wasn't worth it.


Kotchman .232-9-36 .654
Youkilis .251-9-33 .757 and at time of trade .233-.692

His offensive numbers are a little better than Kotchman's, and he has been much better since being traded, but with his defense, salary and durability, I can understand why we passed on him.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:43 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Chris Perez is an affordable, controllable All Star closer, 2+ yrs of control equal a very solid return, if the Giants are serious id demand a return of Brandon Belt-1b, Gary Brown-CF and Kyle Crick-RHSP (last yrs 1st rd pk).


Wow, that is a ton. I don't think you can reasonably expect that.

I do find the rumor that the Giants being interested in Perez quite compelling. The Giants are often aggressive offering prospects for MLB talent.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:21 am

I'd ask for it any how, and consider adding a throw in to get it done. Perez is an all star talent and controlled for 2+ yrs.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:25 pm

I'd be in favor of a Perez for Belt swap, though I would feel more comfortable if the Giants added another prospect. Clayton Blackburn would be great, but he might be too good for San Fran to part with. Joan Gregorio would also be nice.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:30 pm

You'd have to think the Tribe would ask for Gary Brown too, he's the Giants # 1 prospect bats RH plays CF and would likely contribute late this season and would likely be ready next yr.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:04 pm

Word going around that the Indians have picked up Brent Lillibridge.

Kevin Whokilis? :wink

Indians trade pitcher Jose De La Torre to Red Sox

EDIT:

From his own The Twitter account

It's been a crazy month but I am excited to be playing baseball again tomorrow! Flying out to Cleveland in the morning. #Indians
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:53 pm

That's gotta mean the end for Cunningham.

Lillebridge can play all OF and INF positions.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Tondo » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:09 pm

The kind of laughable move you'd expect from this org...not only did they pick up a crappy bat...they managed to seriously piss of half of the Columbus lineup while doing so..nice job, lol...Imagine you're Jason Donald, in the midst of a hot streak at AAA to make it back to Cleveland...and then your bosses give the job to an older and worse version of yourself from outside the org....why should you keep hitting? I gues that's what LaPorta has figured out by now...since he won't get a call this season and can leave afte the season, he's pretty much flipping the bird with both hands right now...and while unsportsmanlike, I can understand t

For the record, Lillibridge has a .630 career OPS in the Majors and a .700 OPS in over 1k AAA ABs

While de la Torre was only a MiL FA pickup at least he had some longshot "unknown" upside with 4 straigth seasons of sub 3 ERA and 9+K...oh well, I'm not mourning his loss...but Lillibridge? Really? Why do we always end up with the never been version of what we need?
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:11 pm

Id agree with that. At the very least Lillibridge is a change and will provide depth too, possibly making Jason Donald and / or Cord Phelps even more expendable.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:24 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Id agree with that. At the very least Lillibridge is a change and will provide depth too, possibly making Jason Donald and / or Cord Phelps even more expendable.


This is all I can make from the move...we could argue that we're better off with Donald and/or Phelps on the Indians 25 man roster, but perhaps one of them is possibly on the move...otherwise this is the most useless deal ever.

But it could, maybe, just maybe get Aaron Cunningham off this roster.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby martyinnewyork » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:39 pm

And we didn't think our bench could get any worse...
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:41 pm

Tondo wrote:Imagine you're Jason Donald, in the midst of a hot streak at AAA to make it back to Cleveland...and then your bosses give the job to an older and worse version of yourself from outside the org....why should you keep hitting?


Why keep hitting? Oh, I don't know...maybe cause it's their jobs? Cause they are paid solid money (in a crap economy) to play a kid's game?

Don't get this move either, but if guys like Donald and LaPorta are giving up because of moves like this, then they should just retire now.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:50 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:Folks, it just got serious in Detroit.

Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante.

Jacob Turner reportedly going to Florida

EDIT: Peter Gammons on The Twitter

1st draft pick deal:A Sanchez, Infante and comp balance pick for Jacob Turner, Rob Brantly, Brian Flynn and Det. comp pick. Fascinating

So with this deal the GD tigies move up to the "A" Round of the comp balance picks; Where is the banging-your-head-against-the-wall smilie when you need it?


Yeah with ya on that, though I do think the Tigers gave up a ton for a rental SP and good, but not great, 2B (Infante's OPS+ was 90 last year, 100 this year). Turner struggled but huge talent and Brantly is no slouch.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:57 pm

According to reports, the Indians were one of a handful of teams that had scouts at the Marlins game last night with Josh Johnson on the hill. Think he'd be a pipe dream though and injury history would worry me...
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:01 pm

Hermie13 wrote:According to reports, the Indians were one of a handful of teams that had scouts at the Marlins game last night with Josh Johnson on the hill. Think he'd be a pipe dream though and injury history would worry me...


Wait....doesn't Austin Kearns play for Miami?


Oh no........

:lol
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby BrianM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:14 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Choo should NOT be traded this year. Trading him this year punches a major hole in your line-up for the rest of this year and next. Trading him next year, if it comes to that makes a lot more sense. Really only CPerez, Hanny, Kotchman, Lowe and Hafner are your only ML's you can trade this year who might bring something back. Only Cperez has the value to bring back a major piece. Though a package of Hanny and or Kotchman + Hafner might have value as well.


Id like to think we still have the opportunity to extend Choo. He seems content in Cleveland, maybe even happy. Recent free agents have proven that Cleveland is near the bottom of most players destination lists, so our best chance of signing high level free agents has to be extending our own. Id throw Choo a 6 year 80 million dollar deal in a heartbeat. Trading him just robs us of the opportunity to even find out.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:38 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:According to reports, the Indians were one of a handful of teams that had scouts at the Marlins game last night with Josh Johnson on the hill. Think he'd be a pipe dream though and injury history would worry me...


Wait....doesn't Austin Kearns play for Miami?


Oh no........

:lol


ha, he does..and he did actually start in RF (though removed in a double switch). Fingers crossed that he wasn't the guy we were scouting lol (don't think we have to worry there though).
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:40 pm

BrianM wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Choo should NOT be traded this year. Trading him this year punches a major hole in your line-up for the rest of this year and next. Trading him next year, if it comes to that makes a lot more sense. Really only CPerez, Hanny, Kotchman, Lowe and Hafner are your only ML's you can trade this year who might bring something back. Only Cperez has the value to bring back a major piece. Though a package of Hanny and or Kotchman + Hafner might have value as well.


Id like to think we still have the opportunity to extend Choo. He seems content in Cleveland, maybe even happy. Recent free agents have proven that Cleveland is near the bottom of most players destination lists, so our best chance of signing high level free agents has to be extending our own. Id throw Choo a 6 year 80 million dollar deal in a heartbeat. Trading him just robs us of the opportunity to even find out.


Love Choo...but that is just way too much, both in terms of years and money. Even a 4yr/$50M deal would be pushing the limits for a guy that doesn't have a ton of power (solid, but not great).
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:51 pm

Anybody think we could get Kearns for McAllister?
JK
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tribe in on Ricky Nolasco. Also with Heath Bell on the market it could hurt the price Perez is worth if the Tribe is really talking with the Giants.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:52 pm

Maybe the Tribe was looking at Hanley Ramirez...but isnt he hurt?
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:56 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Anybody think we could get Kearns for McAllister?
JK
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tribe in on Ricky Nolasco. Also with Heath Bell on the market it could hurt the price Perez is worth if the Tribe is really talking with the Giants.


If the price was right I wouldn't mind seeing the Tribe take a chance on Nolasco. ERA isn't great but solid FIP (though has jumped a lot this year on him). K-rate and walk rates have taken a hit, though groundball rate continues to climb.

Not sure if Heath Bell will really affect the Chris Perez market much at all. Sounds like the Marlins could have trouble given him away.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:11 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Not sure if Heath Bell will really affect the Chris Perez market much at all. Sounds like the Marlins could have trouble given him away.


Peter Gammons had this to say on The Twitter this afternoon

Why would Giants swallow even 40% of Heath Bell contract until they see if Chris Perez can be had after Indians-Tigers series?
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:12 pm

Bell is familiar with the NL West, and could intrigue the Giants or others...Dodgers affecting the number of buyers for CPerez if he's on the market.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:30 am

The trading deadline looms but six days from now & as of this morning, other than a litany of what other teams needs are that players on the Indians roster can fill, there is no serious trades being considered by the Indians:

Sure.. every team would want a shut down, game over closer like Chris Perez.. who wouldn't?

Sure.. every team would want a slugging RF with a cannon for an arm that leads the world as a lead off hitter..

Sure.. every team would want an elite set up man to shut down the opposition in the 8th inning..

The Indians don't need those things.. because they already have them..

The Lillibridge acquisition is a "ho-hum" deal.. think Drew Sutton with a little more speed and no additional upside.. Lillibridge is the kind of player Mark Shapiro/Chris Antonetti seem to fall in love with and really don't contribute much in the way of adding to a roster..

Six days to go... too bad one of them will include having to watch Derek Blowe throw gopher balls to the Tigers big boppers..
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:31 am

btw.. if the Indians are going to "buy" anyone at the trading deadline.. Think "Hunter"... not hunted..
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:56 am

I think the right fit for the Indians is dealing Chris Perez or Vinnie Pestano for Allen Craig. Craig is expendable for the Cardinals and their bullpen needs help. Craig is the RH bat the Indians need and fills 1b of LF, however they choose to use him.

I'm not a buyer of the Indians actually competing this year. I think this 3.5 games out of the wild card talk is very deceiving. #1 - There are EIGHT teams competing for TWO spots, and THREE of these teams are 3 games ahead of the Indians. #2 - This isn't even the playoffs we're talking about; it's a 1-game series to get into the real playoffs. #3 - The Indians are mediocre team that have been outscored by 40+ runs by opponents this year. This team will be fortunate to finish at .500 this year.

But that's not the point. Trading Chris Perez to the Giants for two minor league prospects is hard for the Indians to justify to fans, as opposed to trading Perez or Pestano for a RH bat that this team has desperately needed for YEARS, and 1b/LF are huge voids for this team right now. You can justify that and it helps the team's future. I kind of think Pestano is a ticking time bomb anyways -- he's great now, but these middle relievers with injury histories just aren't all that reliable on a year to year basis. He'll quite possibly be toast in 2014.

Perez or Pestano for Craig just seems like the right fit, but no telling what the Indians and Cardinals think of those three players, or what other trades are potentially out there.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:23 pm

The 2 names I had saw linked with the Giants were Brandon Belt-1b and Gary Brown-CF, which would be considered by many a good return. If I were the Tribe I would move Perez, his value is as high as it will be and the could potentially get some now type player(s) in return.
Belt is a major league ready 1b, has had some struggles but has a hitting history. Brown is the giants #1 prospect and is a RH hitting CF, which would likely be ready next yr.
With a cpl moves the Tribe could be competitive, Id sell Hafner, Lowe, Kotchman, Damon, and Hannahan if the club falls out in the next several days and shop Choo and CPerez for now talents. But look to buy on a cpl guys the team could control beyond this yr.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:54 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:I think the right fit for the Indians is dealing Chris Perez or Vinnie Pestano for Allen Craig. Craig is expendable for the Cardinals and their bullpen needs help. Craig is the RH bat the Indians need and fills 1b of LF, however they choose to use him.

I'm not a buyer of the Indians actually competing this year. I think this 3.5 games out of the wild card talk is very deceiving. #1 - There are EIGHT teams competing for TWO spots, and THREE of these teams are 3 games ahead of the Indians. #2 - This isn't even the playoffs we're talking about; it's a 1-game series to get into the real playoffs. #3 - The Indians are mediocre team that have been outscored by 40+ runs by opponents this year. This team will be fortunate to finish at .500 this year.

But that's not the point. Trading Chris Perez to the Giants for two minor league prospects is hard for the Indians to justify to fans, as opposed to trading Perez or Pestano for a RH bat that this team has desperately needed for YEARS, and 1b/LF are huge voids for this team right now. You can justify that and it helps the team's future. I kind of think Pestano is a ticking time bomb anyways -- he's great now, but these middle relievers with injury histories just aren't all that reliable on a year to year basis. He'll quite possibly be toast in 2014.

Perez or Pestano for Craig just seems like the right fit, but no telling what the Indians and Cardinals think of those three players, or what other trades are potentially out there.


Really can't see any way the Cards would deal Craig for a guy like Chris Perez. Motte has been even better than CP this year. No need to bring in a setup guy that'll be making in the $7-8M range next year. The fit just does not seem therea at all. Cards can spend but even they have their limits and that much on a setup guy is pretty crazy for any team outside of NY.

Now Pestano?....that would be interesting. Not sure Craig is quite as expendable to the Cards as some would think as Berkman is far to fragile and Beltran only has one more year (plus an injury history). Definitely do have some 1B options though they could turn too even with Berkman out.

Trading Pestano from the Indians perspective....dicey. Understand your point on guys with injury histories like him. Could be toast by 2014 as you put it...but the guy is so cheap for us right now, which for a team like Cleveland is huge. Personally I'll be pretty surprised if Pestano isn't the Tribe's closer in 2013 (whether Perez is traded now or this winter we'll see)...

Personally would love to get Craig though (as I know many would)....would love to do it for Joe Smith (even if we had to throw in some spec as well). Maybe they would get that desperate for relief help (though I doubt it). Obviously not Pestano, but has been pretty solid this year (WHIP doesn't light the world on fire but 1.11 isn't bad).


As far as the wild card and the Tribe competing...while I agree with pretty much every you said there, why are we even talking about the Wild Card? Yes, we're 3.5 out of it...but we're only 3 games out of our own DIVISION. We're currently what, 6-1 against the Tigers too? With loads of games left against them. A handful left against the White Sox too. Anything could happen.

Agree 100% that this is a mediocre team...but in this division, a mediocre team is going to get into the playoffs...be it us, Chicago, or Detroit. That's the delima the Tribe faces. I fully believe the Indians FO knows this is not a great team or one really built to win the World Series...but I also think they fully believe this division is winnable this year. Personally think in the end we'll see deal(s) similar to the Fukudome one. Nothing that'll really hurt the team long-term but no major upgrades.

Been a busy couple days though around the league...could be a crazy deadline.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:29 pm

I don't think the Indians have a realistic shot at the playoffs this year. There are no players available that can bridge the talent gap and the Tribe doesn't have much trading ammunition even if there were.

The problem as I see it is making the team competitive for next year. For starters, they need a new 1B, DH, and LF.

Kotchman is hitting .233/.654 with 36 RBI in nearly 300 AB's. Not close to being acceptable at a position that requires offensive production. If he were a Gold Glove shortstop those numbers might be OK, but not at first base. And his slowness on the basepaths drives me nuts. He's an automatic double play on any ground ball he hits with a runner on first.

Hafner is hitting .219 since the All-Star break with 3 RBI in 32 AB's. He's not even drawing walks anymore as his OBP is only .286. He's down to a .229 BA on the season, totally unacceptable for a full-time DH, especially with minimal HRs and RBIs. Watching him play lately, he's fouling off fastballs right down the middle. I can't see him as the Tribe's DH next year at any price.

Damon, Duncan, and Cunningham will not be manning left field for the Tribe next year.

The worst part is I don't see any replacements for these three players in Columbus. Maybe Thomas Neal, who is raking in Akron, could manage left field.

I think they will be forced to trade for some major league ready players at 1B, LF, and DH. With Pestano apparently ready to move into the closer's role, it may be time to move Chris Perez. I'd hate to do it, but the Indians are in a lot of trouble next year at those three positions, and that doesn't even include the starting pitching. I'm counting on either Gomez or Carrasco to replace Lowe and Hernandez to replace Tomlin.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:53 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:I think the right fit for the Indians is dealing Chris Perez or Vinnie Pestano for Allen Craig. Craig is expendable for the Cardinals and their bullpen needs help. Craig is the RH bat the Indians need and fills 1b of LF, however they choose to use him.

I'm not a buyer of the Indians actually competing this year. I think this 3.5 games out of the wild card talk is very deceiving. #1 - There are EIGHT teams competing for TWO spots, and THREE of these teams are 3 games ahead of the Indians. #2 - This isn't even the playoffs we're talking about; it's a 1-game series to get into the real playoffs. #3 - The Indians are mediocre team that have been outscored by 40+ runs by opponents this year. This team will be fortunate to finish at .500 this year.

But that's not the point. Trading Chris Perez to the Giants for two minor league prospects is hard for the Indians to justify to fans, as opposed to trading Perez or Pestano for a RH bat that this team has desperately needed for YEARS, and 1b/LF are huge voids for this team right now. You can justify that and it helps the team's future. I kind of think Pestano is a ticking time bomb anyways -- he's great now, but these middle relievers with injury histories just aren't all that reliable on a year to year basis. He'll quite possibly be toast in 2014.

Perez or Pestano for Craig just seems like the right fit, but no telling what the Indians and Cardinals think of those three players, or what other trades are potentially out there.


Really can't see any way the Cards would deal Craig for a guy like Chris Perez. Motte has been even better than CP this year. No need to bring in a setup guy that'll be making in the $7-8M range next year. The fit just does not seem therea at all. Cards can spend but even they have their limits and that much on a setup guy is pretty crazy for any team outside of NY.

Now Pestano?....that would be interesting. Not sure Craig is quite as expendable to the Cards as some would think as Berkman is far to fragile and Beltran only has one more year (plus an injury history). Definitely do have some 1B options though they could turn too even with Berkman out.

Trading Pestano from the Indians perspective....dicey. Understand your point on guys with injury histories like him. Could be toast by 2014 as you put it...but the guy is so cheap for us right now, which for a team like Cleveland is huge. Personally I'll be pretty surprised if Pestano isn't the Tribe's closer in 2013 (whether Perez is traded now or this winter we'll see)...

Personally would love to get Craig though (as I know many would)....would love to do it for Joe Smith (even if we had to throw in some spec as well). Maybe they would get that desperate for relief help (though I doubt it). Obviously not Pestano, but has been pretty solid this year (WHIP doesn't light the world on fire but 1.11 isn't bad).


As far as the wild card and the Tribe competing...while I agree with pretty much every you said there, why are we even talking about the Wild Card? Yes, we're 3.5 out of it...but we're only 3 games out of our own DIVISION. We're currently what, 6-1 against the Tigers too? With loads of games left against them. A handful left against the White Sox too. Anything could happen.

Agree 100% that this is a mediocre team...but in this division, a mediocre team is going to get into the playoffs...be it us, Chicago, or Detroit. That's the delima the Tribe faces. I fully believe the Indians FO knows this is not a great team or one really built to win the World Series...but I also think they fully believe this division is winnable this year. Personally think in the end we'll see deal(s) similar to the Fukudome one. Nothing that'll really hurt the team long-term but no major upgrades.

Been a busy couple days though around the league...could be a crazy deadline.

Swear to God, I'm watching the Cards/Dodgers last night thinking that Craig would look great in a Tribe uni. I mean hell, they have Berkman, right? At the very second I'm thinking this Berkman gets HBP in his just rehabbed knee. I mean I was comping CPerez/Motte & deciding whether the Cards needed relief help & if they would do it for Perez plus Donald/Phelps, then, wham, Berkman gets it. It's like Karma was saying, no way Loser Tribe Fan!

Maybe Tribe fans are just unhealthily joined at the bran.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby daingean » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:57 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Kotchman is hitting .233/.654 with 36 RBI in nearly 300 AB's. Not close to being acceptable at a position that requires offensive production. If he were a Gold Glove shortstop those numbers might be OK, but not at first base. And his slowness on the basepaths drives me nuts. He's an automatic double play on any ground ball he hits with a runner on first.


I have never been a Kotchman fan. But have you ever seen anyone so slow get so many infield hits?
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:08 pm

Well Youkalis leaves the game in the bottom of the 4th with a sprained ankle..... Wonder how bad it is.
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Re: Should the Indians be buyers or sellers ?

Postby BrianM » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:12 pm

There are a lot of interesting and realistic trade posibilities being thrown around by everyone. Most of these proposals could leave us the opportunity to contend in a weak division this year, but also improve our chances of competing in the future.

The Perez to SF deal for Brandon Belt and Gary Brown deal seems like it could be a win win for both teams. Ive always been a fan of Belt, but hes just not ben given a fair chance in SF. If he can simply be average against RH pitching, he could have a very solid career here in Cleveland. Gary brown is also very intriguing. Last year his slashes were .336/.407/.519 with 14 HR, 34 2B, and 53 SB in the CAL league, and this year hes remained solid in his promotion to the eastern league with .289/.351/.402 splits and 6 Hr, 25 2B, and 28 SB. He bats RH and is a plus defensive CF according to BA. The Decline in both of these players stats have probably brought there value down just enough to make this deal very realistic.

Acquiring Allen Craig from the Cardinals would be a HUGE step forward for the organization. If he can stay healthy, he could be the next Josh Willingham. The Cardinals may not be that interested in selling him, but considering they have Matt Adams and Matt Carpenter to fill the void, he could be their most valuable, and most expendable trade pieces. If the Cardinals would be willing to accept a deal with Joe Smith as the centerpiece, we should be attacking. Vinnie Pestano would be the most likely choice for the Cardinals, but if we deal Perez, Pestano has to be off the market. Any of Nick Hagadone, Chen Lee, Scott Barnes, Rob Bryson, Preston Guillmet, TJ House, Steven Wright, and Giovanny Soto could have enough value to be considered an acceptable throw in to a deal that includeds Smith, along with a player like Jack Hanahan, who's defense at 3rd and 1st could be an asset to any national league team. One of our high upside Single A/Low A players (L Rod, R Rod, Urshela, Wolters) could also be included if necesary.

Its been noted before that Chase Headley has also been linked to deals involving Cleveland. I really don't know what the asking price would be, but Id be willing to part with Chisenhall if they were interested. Headley is a switch hitter who has hit much better away from his home ball park the last couple years (.330 in 2011 and .279 in 2012). Time will tell if he would be an upgrade over Chiz in the long run, but for the next season and a half, I would think he would certainly be an upgrade. He is controlled for the next 5 years I believe. Josh Tomlin may also spark interest from a team in a pitchers park.

The last player worth noting is Justing Ruggiano. I mentioned him in a post earlier, and stand by my belief that he could be an upgrade in LF right now. He's a 30 year old who never really cut it with Tampa Bay early in his career, but has flourished in his opportunity with Miami this year. In 116 ABs hes got 7 HR and is batting .362 and .417 in 48 AB against LHP. He may just be on a hot streak, but he may be one of those guys who has finally figured it out. Miami is having a fire sale, and Ruggiano should be cheap. No matter what his production be for the rest of the year, you would have to think he is worth the gamble.

I dont expect all of these deals to be made, but I do believe it could be possible. If our lineup looked something like this next year, I certainly would begin to believe that we have an offense built for a playoff run.

1. Choo RF
2. Astroball SS
3. Kipnis 2B
4. Craig DH
5. Santana C
6. Brantley CF
7. Ruggiano LF
8. Belt 1B
9. Headley 3B

The pitching staff and bullpen will have major question marks, but our minor league relief pitching depth may be able to step up and produce, and we always have FA to acquire a SP.

SP
Masterson
Ubaldo
McCallister (who also could be a trade piece, even though I'd prefer he wasn't)
Fausto Roberto Carmona Hernandez
Packer
Barnes (if not traded)
FA (?)

RP (All but Pestano could be offered in trades)
Pestano
R Perez
Bryson
Lee
Allen
Strudevant
Guillmat
Stowell
Hermann
Hagadone
Barnes
and Im sure a few other im neglecting.

I could be crazy....well, I am crazy, but this all seems fairly plausible to me. It may take more ammo than we have to acquire someone like Craig, but this is a lineup that has the upside to not just compete for a playoff spot, but to compete IN the playoffs.
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